politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Brexit equivocator Corbyn isn’t doing too badly with Remainers
Comments
-
No it applied across the board and was respected by all, but Don Trump doesn't do diplomacy, in fact I'd be surprised if he can spell the word.SouthamObserver said:I am old enough to remember when it was outrageous for a US president to comment on UK politics. Or maybe that rule only applied to half African ones ;-)
0 -
They did, and they rejected it. However, as long as their currency is pegged to the Euro, as it has been since inception (and before that the Deutschmark), they have no independent monetary policy. They lack the key benefit of having their own currency, while incurring conversion costs with their biggest trading partner on a currency basis.RobD said:
Haven't the Danes had a referendum on Euro membership?RoyalBlue said:Good for Bulgaria on making progress with Euro membership. They have already pegged their currency to the single currency, so they may as well go all-in and join it.
Same for Denmark.
Then again, they’re rich enough that it’s not too much of a problem!0 -
I have backed leave ever since the result but the Brexiteers are driving a hard Brexit with a real threat to tens of thousands of jobs in North Wales and was not part of the deal as far as Inam concerned. It is Mays deal or remainHYUFD said:
Fine but you voted Remain anyway and Leave wonBig_G_NorthWales said:
Hard Brexit will be an utter disaster.HYUFD said:
Trump may be toxic in the UK for most voters but Brexit is notThe_Apocalypse said:
MPs will know by now that Trump is toxic though....HYUFD said:
I expect most Tory members will agree with Trump's commentsThe_Apocalypse said:The Sun front page:
https://twitter.com/montie/status/1017518746053865480?s=21
Trump really wants to kill any chance that Boris may have to win the Conservative leadership, doesn’t he....
If May falls or the Chequers agreement does I will at that time declare for remain and back a peoples vote0 -
At which point Labour would surely split soon after given the irreconcilable Corbynite and Blairite wings. The Corbynistas keeping the Labour Party and the hard Brexiteers the Tory Party and the Blairites joining with Tory Remainers and maybe the LDs too.chloe said:
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The latter two have more in common with each other than their current party membership0 -
Bizarre comment Johnson, Gove, Farage and above all Cameron bare a greater responsibility.Richard_Nabavi said:
Well she, along with Corbyn, is the person most responsible for the vote to leave, although it's true that was collateral damage rather than her intention.Gardenwalker said:I’ll laugh my arse off if it turns out that Trump has emboldened the one or two more Tories needed to reach 48 letters for a VoNC.
Merkel gets a lot of stick from the misogynistic loon brigade on here, but I don’t recall her interfering in domestic U.K. politics.
0 -
More Bulgarians oppose the Euro than support it and vastly more Danes oppose it, the latter having voted against it by referendumRoyalBlue said:Good for Bulgaria on making progress with Euro membership. They have already pegged their currency to the single currency, so they may as well go all-in and join it.
Same for Denmark.0 -
A pegged currency can of course be unpegged if necessary. ERM.HYUFD said:
More Bulgarians oppose the Euro than support it and vastly more Danes oppose it, the latter having voted against it by referendumRoyalBlue said:Good for Bulgaria on making progress with Euro membership. They have already pegged their currency to the single currency, so they may as well go all-in and join it.
Same for Denmark.0 -
I think you underestimate that Labour will draw strength from the Tory weakness. A tory split would ensure Labour will win, and we know that the naysayers to Corbyn still back a Labour government under Corbyn to anything else (except Woodcock). Knowing he will win because of a Tory split will make them more inclined to stick together, not less.HYUFD said:
At which point Labour would surely split soon after. The Corbynistas keeping the Labour Party and the hard Brexiteers the Tory Party and the Blairites joining with Tory Remainers.chloe said:
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership0 -
Sad to see Nabavi fall in with a classic Brexit meme.Jonathan said:
Bizarre comment Johnson, Gove, Farage and above all Cameron bare a greater responsibility.Richard_Nabavi said:
Well she, along with Corbyn, is the person most responsible for the vote to leave, although it's true that was collateral damage rather than her intention.Gardenwalker said:I’ll laugh my arse off if it turns out that Trump has emboldened the one or two more Tories needed to reach 48 letters for a VoNC.
Merkel gets a lot of stick from the misogynistic loon brigade on here, but I don’t recall her interfering in domestic U.K. politics.
“It’s not fair, she made me do it.”0 -
Real mood change on Question Time about Brexit today. The Chequers blow up seems to have blown away any remaining thoughts people had about a bright future after Brexit.-1
-
I don't get the fawning comments. She has attempted to court Trump, so what? So have others. It hasn't worked.The_Apocalypse said:0 -
The LDs could split too. The Greens have oddly pre-split themselves. From the other direction, a UKIP member might agree with himself (or herself) too one day.HYUFD said:
At which point Labour would surely split soon after. The Corbynistas keeping the Labour Party and the hard Brexiteers the Tory Party and the Blairites joining with Tory Remainers.chloe said:
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership0 -
I find it amazing that there are still some people who think that Trump's almost complete* refusal to directly criticise Russia or Putin is just some happy coincidence. Why does Trump freely and repeatedly criticise his neighbours and allies, but almost never does so with Russian and Putin, and in fact frequently praises them? He acts as though he's wary of crossing a line.Richard_Nabavi said:Trump has insulted Canada, Germany, France, the EU as a whole, Japan, Mexico, and pretty much anyone else whom he has heard of, with the notable exception of Putin's Russia. Since he is clearly a temporary aberration in the history of a great nation, and any trade deal with the US won't happen until well after he has gone, why would anyone take anything he says seriously?
* I think there are only a few occassions when Trump has grudgingly criticised Russia, and even then there has been some equivocation.0 -
I think that is what May has decided is the best she can do, even if she took far far too long to decide it when it was clear a long time ago she would never, ever, be able to reconcile the Grieves with the Rees-Moggs. Problem is the sides won't accept we need something to keep the country moving and open it up again later.alex. said:
Everyone just needs to accept right now that the situation is working against an impossible deadline and they should just go with something that keeps the country moving. If they want to seek to open up the debate later, after securing a clear mandate to do so in an election, that is up to them.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
I don't see how a deal happens here, despite the confidence of HYUFD.0 -
Not listening - are they rejecting Brexit or happy for hard Brexitwilliamglenn said:Real mood change on Question Time about Brexit today. The Chequers blow up seems to have blown away any remaining thoughts people had about a bright future after Brexit.
0 -
There is nothing for it, but to use the ultimate bad language. May is the Tory Gordon Brown. Greasy Pole Champion and nothing else.
Labour took too long to realise what Brown was doing to them. Now the Tory’s make the same mistake.
David to Harriet “what are you clapping that for, you voted for it?”
Harriet “Eds my leader and I support him”
Well we know how that turned out. How principleless, opportunist, loyalist brown nosing pee panting spineless ignorant shorttermist drivel always turns out.0 -
Actually I’m not. I passionately believe the EU is dreadful for democracy, and we’ve avoided this debate for sixty years. It’s long overdue. I’m looking at living in a responsive ( as opposed to a nominal) democracy in twenty years time. I do not believe that’s compatible with being in the EUGardenwalker said:
I’m sure.welshowl said:
Not intentionally for sure. But boy has she big time indirectly, and by her glaring omission to take Cameron seriously when he asked for reform.Gardenwalker said:I’ll laugh my arse off if it turns out that Trump has emboldened the one or two more Tories needed to reach 48 letters for a VoNC.
Merkel gets a lot of stick from the misogynistic loon brigade on here, but I don’t recall her interfering in domestic U.K. politics.
I’m sure she’s mortified deep down at what she has accidentally helped to wrought.
And I’m sure you’re mortified deep down at what you accidentally helped to work.
It’s so fundamental to me frankly the economics is totally secondary. Not that I believe the doommongers frankly. As I’ve said to you in the past, our company will be fine whatever.0 -
Yes I agree with that. Anyone trusting a man who lies almost all the time is a damn fool. You can't deal with Trump, he will trash anything you have agreed as soon as he's found his phone.NorthofStoke said:Nobody will make a long-term deal with the US until sanity is restored. Or rather, any seeal made cannot be relied upon. That is a fundamental weakness inherent with Trump. Weather the storm.
0 -
It’s security she married not money per se (although in this case they are related)HYUFD said:
It could be Melania would love an overweight 72 year old if he was a retired mechanic from Ohio rather than a billionaire from New York I suppose. However the odds are not highviewcode said:
Ah, it could be love, y'never know. People are weird.HYUFD said:
Melania is the most beautiful First Lady since Jackie Kennedy, though at least JFK had classical good looks and did not look like he was on his fifth burger of the day unlike The Donald. I think we can probably say Melania really married Donald's bank accountviewcode said:
One thing that is frequently overlooked in the political argy-bargy is that Melania Trump genuinely is a stunningly beautiful and graceful woman who carries herself very well. I can't remember a Presidential consort being that poised.ralphmalph said:
Especially that leather flying jacket, stiletto look, tres chic.GIN1138 said:I like Melania.
0 -
+1.glw said:
I find it amazing that there are still some people who think that Trump's almost complete* refusal to directly criticise Russia or Putin is just some happy coincidence. Why does Trump freely and repeatedly criticise his neighbours and allies, but almost never does so with Russian and Putin, and in fact frequently praises them? He acts as though he's wary of crossing a line.Richard_Nabavi said:Trump has insulted Canada, Germany, France, the EU as a whole, Japan, Mexico, and pretty much anyone else whom he has heard of, with the notable exception of Putin's Russia. Since he is clearly a temporary aberration in the history of a great nation, and any trade deal with the US won't happen until well after he has gone, why would anyone take anything he says seriously?
* I think there are only a few occassions when Trump has grudgingly criticised Russia, and even then there has been some equivocation.
0 -
He’s not commenting on U.K. politicsglw said:
No it applied across the board and was respected by all, but Don Trump doesn't do diplomacy, in fact I'd be surprised if he can spell the word.SouthamObserver said:I am old enough to remember when it was outrageous for a US president to comment on UK politics. Or maybe that rule only applied to half African ones ;-)
He commented on the probability of a US trade deal0 -
That is a pretty colourful last paragraph but fairly accurateLordOfReason said:There is nothing for it, but to use the ultimate bad language. May is the Tory Gordon Brown. Greasy Pole Champion and nothing else.
Labour took too long to realise what Brown was doing to them. Now the Tory’s make the same mistake.
David to Harriet “what are you clapping that for, you voted for it?”
Harriet “Eds my leader and I support him”
Well we know how that turned out. How principleless, opportunist, loyalist brown nosing pee panting spineless ignorant shorttermist drivel always turns out.0 -
that's a naked argumentJonathan said:
Bizarre comment Johnson, Gove, Farage and above all Cameron bare a greater responsibility.Richard_Nabavi said:
Well she, along with Corbyn, is the person most responsible for the vote to leave, although it's true that was collateral damage rather than her intention.Gardenwalker said:I’ll laugh my arse off if it turns out that Trump has emboldened the one or two more Tories needed to reach 48 letters for a VoNC.
Merkel gets a lot of stick from the misogynistic loon brigade on here, but I don’t recall her interfering in domestic U.K. politics.0 -
I heard Owen Patterson on the radio earlier saying the White Paper was terrible, because it would miss the opportunity to import cheaper mangos from India. And i only slightly summarise.kle4 said:
I think that is what May has decided is the best she can do, even if she took far far too long to decide it when it was clear a long time ago she would never, ever, be able to reconcile the Grieves with the Rees-Moggs. Problem is the sides won't accept we need something to keep the country moving and open it up again later.alex. said:
Everyone just needs to accept right now that the situation is working against an impossible deadline and they should just go with something that keeps the country moving. If they want to seek to open up the debate later, after securing a clear mandate to do so in an election, that is up to them.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
I don't see how a deal happens here, despite the confidence of HYUFD.0 -
Ed Miliband had the support of the Labour membership on renouncing the Iraq War though and later on Syria intervention unlike May on soft Brexit with the Tory membershipLordOfReason said:There is nothing for it, but to use the ultimate bad language. May is the Tory Gordon Brown. Greasy Pole Champion and nothing else.
Labour took too long to realise what Brown was doing to them. Now the Tory’s make the same mistake.
David to Harriet “what are you clapping that for, you voted for it?”
Harriet “Eds my leader and I support him”
Well we know how that turned out. How principleless, opportunist, loyalist brown nosing pee panting spineless ignorant shorttermist drivel always turns out.0 -
It will all be alright then... we are in such a mess.alex. said:
I heard Owen Patterson on the radio earlier saying the White Paper was terrible, because it would miss the opportunity to import cheaper mangos from India. And i only slightly summarise.kle4 said:
I think that is what May has decided is the best she can do, even if she took far far too long to decide it when it was clear a long time ago she would never, ever, be able to reconcile the Grieves with the Rees-Moggs. Problem is the sides won't accept we need something to keep the country moving and open it up again later.alex. said:
Everyone just needs to accept right now that the situation is working against an impossible deadline and they should just go with something that keeps the country moving. If they want to seek to open up the debate later, after securing a clear mandate to do so in an election, that is up to them.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
I don't see how a deal happens here, despite the confidence of HYUFD.0 -
Of course not...Charles said:He’s not commenting on U.K. politics
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/10175155847985807360 -
And May is quite correct to not listen to Trump. He won’t do a decent deal anyway America First and all that.williamglenn said:
Of course not...Charles said:He’s not commenting on U.K. politics
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/10175155847985807360 -
Question Time:
As usual, most of the panellists talking at the same time, (and sometimes the audience as well). If you watch editions of Question Time from the 1980s and 1990s it was very rare for that to happen.0 -
By "coincidence" I'm drinking mango-flavoured diet coke - not too bad actuallyalex. said:
I heard Owen Patterson on the radio earlier saying the White Paper was terrible, because it would miss the opportunity to import cheaper mangos from India. And i only slightly summarise.kle4 said:
I think that is what May has decided is the best she can do, even if she took far far too long to decide it when it was clear a long time ago she would never, ever, be able to reconcile the Grieves with the Rees-Moggs. Problem is the sides won't accept we need something to keep the country moving and open it up again later.alex. said:
Everyone just needs to accept right now that the situation is working against an impossible deadline and they should just go with something that keeps the country moving. If they want to seek to open up the debate later, after securing a clear mandate to do so in an election, that is up to them.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
I don't see how a deal happens here, despite the confidence of HYUFD.
0 -
Surely the only trade "expertise" Trump has shown from his time in office so far is how to get rid of trade deals and put up trade barriers?williamglenn said:
Of course not...Charles said:He’s not commenting on U.K. politics
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/10175155847985807360 -
Yep. Unless the Tories can agree, right now, to positively pursue a plan (of some kind) with a sense of unity, or Labour back the government plan, all this talk of deals is pointless.chloe said:
It will all be alright then... we are in such a mess.alex. said:
I heard Owen Patterson on the radio earlier saying the White Paper was terrible, because it would miss the opportunity to import cheaper mangos from India. And i only slightly summarise.kle4 said:
I think that is what May has decided is the best she can do, even if she took far far too long to decide it when it was clear a long time ago she would never, ever, be able to reconcile the Grieves with the Rees-Moggs. Problem is the sides won't accept we need something to keep the country moving and open it up again later.alex. said:
Everyone just needs to accept right now that the situation is working against an impossible deadline and they should just go with something that keeps the country moving. If they want to seek to open up the debate later, after securing a clear mandate to do so in an election, that is up to them.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
I don't see how a deal happens here, despite the confidence of HYUFD.
Neither looks remotely likely. Therefore, we crash out, as the negative impacts of that won't be felt soon enough to remain either. It won't be Mad Max, but it's not looking good.
Night all.0 -
Remain would win such a vote by a landslide against this backdrop, and a three way discussion and vote. It wasn’t structured binary last time to give the voters a voice but simply contrive a remain win. To genuinely give the voters a steer for parliament to then act on, and in so doing ensuring a proper educational debate, it would have contained 3 or 4 options last time.NorthofStoke said:
It may happen (possibly a provisionally agreed compromise deal instead of Single Market).The timing and logistics would be horrible and ther would have to be an extension of leaving date I suspect. STV? I'm guessing May's deal would win then!chloe said:
Nobody really knows why people voted the way they did. Both campaigns were awful. The government can’t agree what to do so how about postponing A50 and have a people’s vote with remain, SIngle market and WTO options with factual information about what each option entails?alex. said:
I think most of the electorate probably just want the whole d*mn thing over with and are fed up with the politicians for not just getting on with it. Given that one day the 'rebels' are the remainers and the next they are leavers it's a pox on all their houses. Even worse is that every time anyone rebels they hide behind the excuse that their position is not necessarily based on fundamental principle, but just because the people will get angry that it is not what the voted (or didn't) for.NorthofStoke said:I think we are now in a situation where no potential solution has a majority in either the Commons or the electorate (including no deal and even exiting Brexit - if that is possible). May's approach is as close to an overall compromise as we are likely to see. If it is wiped out then how on earth will a new status quo that is remotely stable be achieved?
0 -
The quality of our politicians has undoubtedly declined. One can get far greater rewards with less risk and without all the nonsense politicos have to deal with in many industries, so should we be surprised?AndyJS said:Question Time:
As usual, most of the panellists talking at the same time. If you watch editions of Question Time from the 1980s and 1990s it was very rare for that to happen.0 -
He did both, Charles, it's plain as day.Charles said:
He’s not commenting on U.K. politicsglw said:
No it applied across the board and was respected by all, but Don Trump doesn't do diplomacy, in fact I'd be surprised if he can spell the word.SouthamObserver said:I am old enough to remember when it was outrageous for a US president to comment on UK politics. Or maybe that rule only applied to half African ones ;-)
He commented on the probability of a US trade deal0 -
Utter rubbish. A Tory split would lead to the creation of a UK En Marche style party within months.kle4 said:
I think you underestimate that Labour will draw strength from the Tory weakness. A tory split would ensure Labour will win, and we know that the naysayers to Corbyn still back a Labour government under Corbyn to anything else (except Woodcock). Knowing he will win because of a Tory split will make them more inclined to stick together, not less.HYUFD said:
At which point Labour would surely split soon after. The Corbynistas keeping the Labour Party and the hard Brexiteers the Tory Party and the Blairites joining with Tory Remainers.chloe said:
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership
Don't you realise Chuka Umunna has been talking to Anna Soubry for months about forming a new SDP style party as he cannot stand Corbyn and his socialism and lack of support for the single market much longer?0 -
I would vote for that tomorrow.HYUFD said:
Utter rubbish. A Tory split would lead to the creation of a UK En Marche style party within months.kle4 said:
I think you underestimate that Labour will draw strength from the Tory weakness. A tory split would ensure Labour will win, and we know that the naysayers to Corbyn still back a Labour government under Corbyn to anything else (except Woodcock). Knowing he will win because of a Tory split will make them more inclined to stick together, not less.HYUFD said:
At which point Labour would surely split soon after. The Corbynistas keeping the Labour Party and the hard Brexiteers the Tory Party and the Blairites joining with Tory Remainers.chloe said:
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership
Don't you realise Chuka Umunna has been talking to Anna Soubry for months about forming a new SDP style party as he cannot stand Corbyn and his socialism and lack of support for the single market much longer?0 -
Paul Joseph Watson has managed to get his face on the front page of the UKIP website, something which he's boasting about on Twitter.
http://www.ukip.org/
https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet0 -
You think Chuka and anyone else would join a Tory breakaway faction? That is what is utter rubbish. There's a reason neither he nor Soubry have done more than moan, why the LDs are moribund, why even those Lab MPs who thought Corbyn would see the party crushed in 2017 still backed him for PM - none of them are going anywhere to join together, certainly not in significant numbers. The tribalism is too strong. A tory split is only possible because, on Brexit, and their being in government, makes their agreement impossible. And even then most will just stay put and just make a working government impossible.HYUFD said:
Utter rubbish. A Tory split would lead to the creation of a UK En Marche style party within months.kle4 said:
I think you underestimate that Labour will draw strength from the Tory weakness. A tory split would ensure Labour will win, and we know that the naysayers to Corbyn still back a Labour government under Corbyn to anything else (except Woodcock). Knowing he will win because of a Tory split will make them more inclined to stick together, not less.HYUFD said:
At which point Labour would surely split soon after. The Corbynistas keeping the Labour Party and the hard Brexiteers the Tory Party and the Blairites joining with Tory Remainers.chloe said:
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership
Don't you realise Chuka Umunna has been talking to Anna Soubry for months about forming a new SDP style party as he cannot stand Corbyn and his socialism and lack of support for the single market much longer?0 -
I don't see how commenting on Boris as pm material and telling us that May negotiated poorly could be classed as not commentating on UK politicskle4 said:
He did both, Charles, it's plain as day.Charles said:
He’s not commenting on U.K. politicsglw said:
No it applied across the board and was respected by all, but Don Trump doesn't do diplomacy, in fact I'd be surprised if he can spell the word.SouthamObserver said:I am old enough to remember when it was outrageous for a US president to comment on UK politics. Or maybe that rule only applied to half African ones ;-)
He commented on the probability of a US trade deal0 -
Charles is going on full on Trumpist.kle4 said:
He did both, Charles, it's plain as day.Charles said:
He’s not commenting on U.K. politicsglw said:
No it applied across the board and was respected by all, but Don Trump doesn't do diplomacy, in fact I'd be surprised if he can spell the word.SouthamObserver said:I am old enough to remember when it was outrageous for a US president to comment on UK politics. Or maybe that rule only applied to half African ones ;-)
He commented on the probability of a US trade deal
It’s when Brexit metastasises. Sadly, it’s usually fatal - at least for the brain - although some on here prove it’s possible to continue posting in an entirely vegetative state.
0 -
virtue signalling!Sunil_Prasannan said:
By "coincidence" I'm drinking mango-flavoured diet coke - not too bad actuallyalex. said:
I heard Owen Patterson on the radio earlier saying the White Paper was terrible, because it would miss the opportunity to import cheaper mangos from India. And i only slightly summarise.kle4 said:
I think that is what May has decided is the best she can do, even if she took far far too long to decide it when it was clear a long time ago she would never, ever, be able to reconcile the Grieves with the Rees-Moggs. Problem is the sides won't accept we need something to keep the country moving and open it up again later.alex. said:
Everyone just needs to accept right now that the situation is working against an impossible deadline and they should just go with something that keeps the country moving. If they want to seek to open up the debate later, after securing a clear mandate to do so in an election, that is up to them.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
I don't see how a deal happens here, despite the confidence of HYUFD.
0 -
Gina Miller would make a good Conservative MP.RoyalBlue said:
The quality of our politicians has undoubtedly declined. One can get far greater rewards with less risk and without all the nonsense politicos have to deal with in many industries, so should we be surprised?AndyJS said:Question Time:
As usual, most of the panellists talking at the same time. If you watch editions of Question Time from the 1980s and 1990s it was very rare for that to happen.0 -
I doubt the party will split but if JRM engineers a VNOC in the government then the prospects are that the party would be decimated and lots of these Brexiteers will lose their seats even though they fought against a soft BrexitHYUFD said:
Utter rubbish. A Tory split would lead to the creation of a UK En Marche style party within months.kle4 said:
I think you underestimate that Labour will draw strength from the Tory weakness. A tory split would ensure Labour will win, and we know that the naysayers to Corbyn still back a Labour government under Corbyn to anything else (except Woodcock). Knowing he will win because of a Tory split will make them more inclined to stick together, not less.HYUFD said:
At which point Labour would surely split soon after. The Corbynistas keeping the Labour Party and the hard Brexiteers the Tory Party and the Blairites joining with Tory Remainers.chloe said:
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership
Don't you realise Chuka Umunna has been talking to Anna Soubry for months about forming a new SDP style party as he cannot stand Corbyn and his socialism and lack of support for the single market much longer?0 -
Hodges is really upset tonight:
https://twitter.com/dpjhodges/status/1017533503540465664?s=210 -
It's no different to something like the Monarchy in Australia. Ask a straight question - do you want to abolish the monarchy - and abolition wins. Put the monarchy up against any predetermined alternative and abolition loses.LordOfReason said:
Remain would win such a vote by a landslide against this backdrop, and a three way discussion and vote. It wasn’t structured binary last time to give the voters a voice but simply contrive a remain win. To genuinely give the voters a steer for parliament to then act on, and in so doing ensuring a proper educational debate, it would have contained 3 or 4 options last time.NorthofStoke said:
It may happen (possibly a provisionally agreed compromise deal instead of Single Market).The timing and logistics would be horrible and ther would have to be an extension of leaving date I suspect. STV? I'm guessing May's deal would win then!chloe said:
Nobody really knows why people voted the way they did. Both campaigns were awful. The government can’t agree what to do so how about postponing A50 and have a people’s vote with remain, SIngle market and WTO options with factual information about what each option entails?alex. said:
I think most of the electorate probably just want the whole d*mn thing over with and are fed up with the politicians for not just getting on with it. Given that one day the 'rebels' are the remainers and the next they are leavers it's a pox on all their houses. Even worse is that every time anyone rebels they hide behind the excuse that their position is not necessarily based on fundamental principle, but just because the people will get angry that it is not what the voted (or didn't) for.NorthofStoke said:I think we are now in a situation where no potential solution has a majority in either the Commons or the electorate (including no deal and even exiting Brexit - if that is possible). May's approach is as close to an overall compromise as we are likely to see. If it is wiped out then how on earth will a new status quo that is remotely stable be achieved?
The problem with Brexit of course is that Remain + Soft Brexiteers beats Hard Brexiteers by a landslide. But Hard Brexiteers claim to have a majority of the leave vote so think that they should hold sway, because the opinions of remainers don't matter.
0 -
The problem is with politicians behaving like this we can't be surprised if everyone else follows their example and a culture of trying to shout the loudest takes hold amongst the population at large. The concept of people taking it in turns to talk during a discussion seems to be dying out.RoyalBlue said:
The quality of our politicians has undoubtedly declined. One can get far greater rewards with less risk and without all the nonsense politicos have to deal with in many industries, so should we be surprised?AndyJS said:Question Time:
As usual, most of the panellists talking at the same time. If you watch editions of Question Time from the 1980s and 1990s it was very rare for that to happen.0 -
Listening to Question Time made me wonder if there are any senior Labour politicians less articulate than Barry Gardiner?0
-
The Greens would likely join the Corbynite Labour Party in most cases and the remaining UKIP voters the hard Brexit Tory Party.Omnium said:
The LDs could split too. The Greens have oddly pre-split themselves. From the other direction, a UKIP member might agree with himself (or herself) too one day.HYUFD said:
At which point Labour would surely split soon after. The Corbynistas keeping the Labour Party and the hard Brexiteers the Tory Party and the Blairites joining with Tory Remainers.chloe said:
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership
It would be a much needed realignment also reflecting political realignments across the western world as the 20th century divide between capitalism and socialism of varying degrees is replaced by the 21st century divide between those who put the nation state and tradution first or globalisation and liberalism first.
Mogg and Corbyn would be in the former group for example, Blair and Cameron in the latter group0 -
And they won’t compromise at all.alex. said:
It's no different to something like the Monarchy in Australia. Ask a straight question - do you want to abolish the monarchy - and abolition wins. Put the monarchy up against any predetermined alternative and abolition loses.LordOfReason said:
Remain would win such a vote by a landslide against this backdrop, and a three way discussion and vote. It wasn’t structured binary last time to give the voters a voice but simply contrive a remain win. To genuinely give the voters a steer for parliament to then act on, and in so doing ensuring a proper educational debate, it would have contained 3 or 4 options last time.NorthofStoke said:
It may happen (possibly a provisionally agreed compromise deal instead of Single Market).The timing and logistics would be horrible and ther would have to be an extension of leaving date I suspect. STV? I'm guessing May's deal would win then!chloe said:
Nobody really knows why people voted the way they did. Both campaigns were awful. The government can’t agree what to do so how about postponing A50 and have a people’s vote with remain, SIngle market and WTO options with factual information about what each option entails?alex. said:
I think most of the electorate probably just want the whole d*mn thing over with and are fed up with the politicians for not just getting on with it. Given that one day the 'rebels' are the remainers and the next they are leavers it's a pox on all their houses. Even worse is that every time anyone rebels they hide behind the excuse that their position is not necessarily based on fundamental principle, but just because the people will get angry that it is not what the voted (or didn't) for.NorthofStoke said:I think we are now in a situation where no potential solution has a majority in either the Commons or the electorate (including no deal and even exiting Brexit - if that is possible). May's approach is as close to an overall compromise as we are likely to see. If it is wiped out then how on earth will a new status quo that is remotely stable be achieved?
The problem with Brexit of course is that Remain + Soft Brexiteers beats Hard Brexiteers by a landslide. But Hard Brexiteers claim to have a majority of the leave vote so think that they should hold sway, because the opinions of remainers don't matter.0 -
Conservative?williamglenn said:
Gina Miller would make a good Conservative MP.RoyalBlue said:
The quality of our politicians has undoubtedly declined. One can get far greater rewards with less risk and without all the nonsense politicos have to deal with in many industries, so should we be surprised?AndyJS said:Question Time:
As usual, most of the panellists talking at the same time. If you watch editions of Question Time from the 1980s and 1990s it was very rare for that to happen.0 -
A very succinct summation of the problem (although perhaps not in a landslide). But from the very beginning some always claimed only their Brexit was true Brexit, and that has ramped up. I don't know if May's plan is a very good one - as I've noted even the BBC's summary indicated it was not, for leavers or the EU - but the pretence that only one kind of exit is acceptable is one of the key factors in causing our issues (and yes, the EU have played a much tougher negotiation than I expected from them).alex. said:
The problem with Brexit of course is that Remain + Soft Brexiteers beats Hard Brexiteers by a landslide. But Hard Brexiteers claim to have a majority of the leave vote so think that they should hold sway, because the opinions of remainers don't matter.LordOfReason said:
Remain would win such a vote by a landslide against this backdrop, and a three way discussion and vote. It wasn’t structured binary last time to give the voters a voice but simply contrive a remain win. To genuinely give the voters a steer for parliament to then act on, and in so doing ensuring a proper educational debate, it would have contained 3 or 4 options last time.NorthofStoke said:
It may happen (possibly a provisionally agreed compromise deal instead of Single Market).The timing and logistics would be horrible and ther would have to be an extension of leaving date I suspect. STV? I'm guessing May's deal would win then!chloe said:
Nobody really knows why people voted the way they did. Both campaigns were awful. The government can’t agree what to do so how about postponing A50 and have a people’s vote with remain, SIngle market and WTO options with factual information about what each option entails?alex. said:
I think most of the electorate probably just want the whole d*mn thing over with and are fed up with the politicians for not just getting on with it. Given that one day the 'rebels' are the remainers and the next they are leavers it's a pox on all their houses. Even worse is that every time anyone rebels they hide behind the excuse that their position is not necessarily based on fundamental principle, but just because the people will get angry that it is not what the voted (or didn't) for.NorthofStoke said:I think we are now in a situation where no potential solution has a majority in either the Commons or the electorate (including no deal and even exiting Brexit - if that is possible). May's approach is as close to an overall compromise as we are likely to see. If it is wiped out then how on earth will a new status quo that is remotely stable be achieved?
0 -
isn't that democracy?alex. said:
It's no different to something like the Monarchy in Australia. Ask a straight question - do you want to abolish the monarchy - and abolition wins. Put the monarchy up against any predetermined alternative and abolition loses.LordOfReason said:
Remain would win such a vote by a landslide against this backdrop, and a three way discussion and vote. It wasn’t structured binary last time to give the voters a voice but simply contrive a remain win. To genuinely give the voters a steer for parliament to then act on, and in so doing ensuring a proper educational debate, it would have contained 3 or 4 options last time.NorthofStoke said:
It may happen (possibly a provisionally agreed compromise deal instead of Single Market).The timing and logistics would be horrible and ther would have to be an extension of leaving date I suspect. STV? I'm guessing May's deal would win then!chloe said:
Nobody really knows why people voted the way they did. Both campaigns were awful. The government can’t agree what to do so how about postponing A50 and have a people’s vote with remain, SIngle market and WTO options with factual information about what each option entails?alex. said:
I think most of the electorate probably just want the whole d*mn thing over with and are fed up with the politicians for not just getting on with it. Given that one day the 'rebels' are the remainers and the next they are leavers it's a pox on all their houses. Even worse is that every time anyone rebels they hide behind the excuse that their position is not necessarily based on fundamental principle, but just because the people will get angry that it is not what the voted (or didn't) for.NorthofStoke said:I think we are now in a situation where no potential solution has a majority in either the Commons or the electorate (including no deal and even exiting Brexit - if that is possible). May's approach is as close to an overall compromise as we are likely to see. If it is wiped out then how on earth will a new status quo that is remotely stable be achieved?
The problem with Brexit of course is that Remain + Soft Brexiteers beats Hard Brexiteers by a landslide. But Hard Brexiteers claim to have a majority of the leave vote so think that they should hold sway, because the opinions of remainers don't matter.
0 -
If only your party were competent enough to deliver a decent deal.TheScreamingEagles said:
You won, you're going to have to explain why you said no deal was Project Fear if it happens.Floater said:
Remind me who offered these people a vote and then didn't make a convincing case for staying?TheScreamingEagles said:I am a natural optimist* but God I have nothing but contempt for (hardline) Leavers.
They've fucked the country and they've fucked the Tory party.
A fie upon them.
*Except in sport.
ah yes - the main stream of the tory party
They won't blame the man who warned about it.
You won, you will own it.
Plus of course the one killer fact... IF leaving will be so bad (and it really shouldn't be) explain to me why your genius leader took the risk.0 -
Lib Dem surelyAndyJS said:
Conservative?williamglenn said:
Gina Miller would make a good Conservative MP.RoyalBlue said:
The quality of our politicians has undoubtedly declined. One can get far greater rewards with less risk and without all the nonsense politicos have to deal with in many industries, so should we be surprised?AndyJS said:Question Time:
As usual, most of the panellists talking at the same time. If you watch editions of Question Time from the 1980s and 1990s it was very rare for that to happen.0 -
define seniorRoger said:Listening to Question Time made me wonder if there are any senior Labour politicians less articulate than Barry Gardiner?
0 -
I see you also have tried to put words in my mouth.Floater said:
If only your party were competent enough to deliver a decent deal.TheScreamingEagles said:
You won, you're going to have to explain why you said no deal was Project Fear if it happens.Floater said:
Remind me who offered these people a vote and then didn't make a convincing case for staying?TheScreamingEagles said:I am a natural optimist* but God I have nothing but contempt for (hardline) Leavers.
They've fucked the country and they've fucked the Tory party.
A fie upon them.
*Except in sport.
ah yes - the main stream of the tory party
They won't blame the man who warned about it.
You won, you will own it.
Plus of course the one killer fact... IF leaving will be so bad (and it really shouldn't be) explain to me why your genius leader took the risk.
LAWYERS AND POLITICIANS EH0 -
60% soft Brexit, 40% hard Brexit at most I expect. Probably more like 55% to 45%alex. said:
It's no different to something like the Monarchy in Australia. Ask a straight question - do you want to abolish the monarchy - and abolition wins. Put the monarchy up against any predetermined alternative and abolition loses.LordOfReason said:
Remain would win such a vote by a landslide against this backdrop, and a three way discussion and vote. It wasn’t structured binary last time to give the voters a voice but simply contrive a remain win. To genuinely give the voters a steer for parliament to then act on, and in so doing ensuring a proper educational debate, it would have contained 3 or 4 options last time.NorthofStoke said:
It may happen (possibly a provisionally agreed compromise deal instead of Single Market).The timing and logistics would be horrible and ther would have to be an extension of leaving date I suspect. STV? I'm guessing May's deal would win then!chloe said:
Nobody really knows why people voted the way they did. Both campaigns were awful. The government can’t agree what to do so how about postponing A50 and have a people’s vote with remain, SIngle market and WTO options with factual information about what each option entails?alex. said:
I think most of the electorate probably just want the whole d*mn thing over with and are fed up with the politicians for not just getting on with it. Given that one day the 'rebels' are the remainers and the next they are leavers it's a pox on all their houses. Even worse is that every time anyone rebels they hide behind the excuse that their position is not necessarily based on fundamental principle, but just because the people will get angry that it is not what the voted (or didn't) for.NorthofStoke said:I think we are now in a situation where no potential solution has a majority in either the Commons or the electorate (including no deal and even exiting Brexit - if that is possible). May's approach is as close to an overall compromise as we are likely to see. If it is wiped out then how on earth will a new status quo that is remotely stable be achieved?
The problem with Brexit of course is that Remain + Soft Brexiteers beats Hard Brexiteers by a landslide. But Hard Brexiteers claim to have a majority of the leave vote so think that they should hold sway, because the opinions of remainers don't matter.0 -
I'm thinking of the coming realignment when the Tories go back to being a pragmatic pro-EU party.AndyJS said:
Conservative?williamglenn said:
Gina Miller would make a good Conservative MP.RoyalBlue said:
The quality of our politicians has undoubtedly declined. One can get far greater rewards with less risk and without all the nonsense politicos have to deal with in many industries, so should we be surprised?AndyJS said:Question Time:
As usual, most of the panellists talking at the same time. If you watch editions of Question Time from the 1980s and 1990s it was very rare for that to happen.0 -
Leave 52%alex. said:
It's no different to something like the Monarchy in Australia. Ask a straight question - do you want to abolish the monarchy - and abolition wins. Put the monarchy up against any predetermined alternative and abolition loses.LordOfReason said:
Remain would win such a vote by a landslide against this backdrop, and a three way discussion and vote. It wasn’t structured binary last time to give the voters a voice but simply contrive a remain win. To genuinely give the voters a steer for parliament to then act on, and in so doing ensuring a proper educational debate, it would have contained 3 or 4 options last time.NorthofStoke said:
It may happen (possibly a provisionally agreed compromise deal instead of Single Market).The timing and logistics would be horrible and ther would have to be an extension of leaving date I suspect. STV? I'm guessing May's deal would win then!chloe said:
Nobody really knows why people voted the way they did. Both campaigns were awful. The government can’t agree what to do so how about postponing A50 and have a people’s vote with remain, SIngle market and WTO options with factual information about what each option entails?alex. said:
I think most of the electorate probably just want the whole d*mn thing over with and are fed up with the politicians for not just getting on with it. Given that one day the 'rebels' are the remainers and the next they are leavers it's a pox on all their houses. Even worse is that every time anyone rebels they hide behind the excuse that their position is not necessarily based on fundamental principle, but just because the people will get angry that it is not what the voted (or didn't) for.NorthofStoke said:I think we are now in a situation where no potential solution has a majority in either the Commons or the electorate (including no deal and even exiting Brexit - if that is possible). May's approach is as close to an overall compromise as we are likely to see. If it is wiped out then how on earth will a new status quo that is remotely stable be achieved?
The problem with Brexit of course is that Remain + Soft Brexiteers beats Hard Brexiteers by a landslide. But Hard Brexiteers claim to have a majority of the leave vote so think that they should hold sway, because the opinions of remainers don't matter.
Remain 48%
0 -
Absolutely, indeed despite your denials he is already in talks for just such a new party in the event Corbynistas maintain an indefinite hold over the Labour Party. It would also be a breakaway centrist party not a breakaway Tory Party.kle4 said:
You think Chuka and anyone else would join a Tory breakaway faction? That is what is utter rubbish. There's a reason neither he nor Soubry have done more than moan, why the LDs are moribund, why even those Lab MPs who thought Corbyn would see the party crushed in 2017 still backed him for PM - none of them are going anywhere to join together, certainly not in significant numbers. The tribalism is too strong. A tory split is only possible because, on Brexit, and their being in government, makes their agreement impossible. And even then most will just stay put and just make a working government impossible.HYUFD said:
Utter rubbish. A Tory split would lead to the creation of a UK En Marche style party within months.kle4 said:
I think you underestimate that Labour will draw strength from the Tory weakness. A tory split would ensure Labour will win, and we know that the naysayers to Corbyn still back a Labour government under Corbyn to anything else (except Woodcock). Knowing he will win because of a Tory split will make them more inclined to stick together, not less.HYUFD said:
At which point Labour would surely split soon after. The Corbynistas keeping the Labour Party and the hard Brexiteers the Tory Party and the Blairites joining with Tory Remainers.chloe said:
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership
Don't you realise Chuka Umunna has been talking to Anna Soubry for months about forming a new SDP style party as he cannot stand Corbyn and his socialism and lack of support for the single market much longer?
You only have to see En Marche made up of breakaway Les Republicains and Socialist politicians as an example of how quickly a new centrist party can emerge under a charismatic leader0 -
Except you ignore the fact you are a minority in the current Tory Party, most Tories and most Tory seats back hard BrexitBig_G_NorthWales said:
I doubt the party will split but if JRM engineers a VNOC in the government then the prospects are that the party would be decimated and lots of these Brexiteers will lose their seats even though they fought against a soft BrexitHYUFD said:
Utter rubbish. A Tory split would lead to the creation of a UK En Marche style party within months.kle4 said:
I think you underestimate that Labour will draw strength from the Tory weakness. A tory split would ensure Labour will win, and we know that the naysayers to Corbyn still back a Labour government under Corbyn to anything else (except Woodcock). Knowing he will win because of a Tory split will make them more inclined to stick together, not less.HYUFD said:
At which point Labour would surely split soon after. The Corbynistas keeping the Labour Party and the hard Brexiteers the Tory Party and the Blairites joining with Tory Remainers.chloe said:
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership
Don't you realise Chuka Umunna has been talking to Anna Soubry for months about forming a new SDP style party as he cannot stand Corbyn and his socialism and lack of support for the single market much longer?0 -
I was thinking of you as I wrote it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
That is a pretty colourful last paragraph but fairly accurateLordOfReason said:There is nothing for it, but to use the ultimate bad language. May is the Tory Gordon Brown. Greasy Pole Champion and nothing else.
Labour took too long to realise what Brown was doing to them. Now the Tory’s make the same mistake.
David to Harriet “what are you clapping that for, you voted for it?”
Harriet “Eds my leader and I support him”
Well we know how that turned out. How principleless, opportunist, loyalist brown nosing pee panting spineless ignorant shorttermist drivel always turns out.0 -
Have you got Aspergers? You've used exactly the same post many hundreds of times.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Leave 52%alex. said:
It's no different to something like the Monarchy in Australia. Ask a straight question - do you want to abolish the monarchy - and abolition wins. Put the monarchy up against any predetermined alternative and abolition loses.LordOfReason said:
Remain would win such a vote by a landslide against this backdrop, and a three way discussion and vote. It wasn’t structured binary last time to give the voters a voice but simply contrive a remain win. To genuinely give the voters a steer for parliament to then act on, and in so doing ensuring a proper educational debate, it would have contained 3 or 4 options last time.NorthofStoke said:
It may happen (possibly a provisionally agreed compromise deal instead of Single Market).The timing and logistics would be horrible and ther would have to be an extension of leaving date I suspect. STV? I'm guessing May's deal would win then!chloe said:
Nobody really knows why people voted the way they did. Both campaigns were awful. The government can’t agree what to do so how about postponing A50 and have a people’s vote with remain, SIngle market and WTO options with factual information about what each option entails?alex. said:
I think most of the electorate probably just want the whole d*mn thing over with and are fed up with the politicians for not just getting on with it. Given that one day the 'rebels' are the remainers and the next they are leavers it's a pox on all their houses. Even worse is that every time anyone rebels they hide behind the excuse that their position is not necessarily based on fundamental principle, but just because the people will get angry that it is not what the voted (or didn't) for.NorthofStoke said:I think we are now in a situation where no potential solution has a majority in either the Commons or the electorate (including no deal and even exiting Brexit - if that is possible). May's approach is as close to an overall compromise as we are likely to see. If it is wiped out then how on earth will a new status quo that is remotely stable be achieved?
The problem with Brexit of course is that Remain + Soft Brexiteers beats Hard Brexiteers by a landslide. But Hard Brexiteers claim to have a majority of the leave vote so think that they should hold sway, because the opinions of remainers don't matter.
Remain 48%0 -
Probably can wait until the deficit is finally gone, paid for out of savings on interest payments perhaps?The_Apocalypse said:0 -
Most, not all, and in the right places that will mean many lost seats.HYUFD said:
Except you ignore the fact you are a minority in the current Tory Party, most Tories and most Tory seats back hard BrexitBig_G_NorthWales said:
I doubt the party will split but if JRM engineers a VNOC in the government then the prospects are that the party would be decimated and lots of these Brexiteers will lose their seats even though they fought against a soft BrexitHYUFD said:
Utter rubbish. A Tory split would lead to the creation of a UK En Marche style party within months.kle4 said:
I think you underestimate that Labour will draw strength from the Tory weakness. A tory split would ensure Labour will win, and we know that the naysayers to Corbyn still back a Labour government under Corbyn to anything else (except Woodcock). Knowing he will win because of a Tory split will make them more inclined to stick together, not less.HYUFD said:
At which point Labour would surely split soon after. The Corbynistas keeping the Labour Party and the hard Brexiteers the Tory Party and the Blairites joining with Tory Remainers.chloe said:
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership
Don't you realise Chuka Umunna has been talking to Anna Soubry for months about forming a new SDP style party as he cannot stand Corbyn and his socialism and lack of support for the single market much longer?0 -
Talking about it is very different from doing it. That they've talked about it so long with nothing coming from it is proof it will go no further.HYUFD said:
Absolutely, indeed despite your denials he is already in talks for just such a new party in the event Corbynistas maintain an indefinite hold over the Labour Party. It would also be a breakaway centrist party not a breakaway Tory Party.kle4 said:
You think Chuka and anyone else would join a Tory breakaway faction? That is what is utter rubbish. There's a reason neither he nor Soubry have done more than moan, why the LDs are moribund, why even those Lab MPs who thought Corbyn would see the party crushed in 2017 still backed him for PM - none of them are going anywhere to join together, certainly not in significant numbers. The tribalism is too strong. A tory split is only possible because, on Brexit, and their being in government, makes their agreement impossible. And even then most will just stay put and just make a working government impossible.HYUFD said:
Utter rubbish. A Tory split would lead to the creation of a UK En Marche style party within months.kle4 said:
I think you underestimate that Labour will draw strength from the Tory weakness. A tory split would ensure Labour will win, and we know that the naysayers to Corbyn still back a Labour government under Corbyn to anything else (except Woodcock). Knowing he will win because of a Tory split will make them more inclined to stick together, not less.HYUFD said:
At which point Labour would surely split soon after. The Corbynistas keeping the Labour Party and the hard Brexiteers the Tory Party and the Blairites joining with Tory Remainers.chloe said:
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership
Don't you realise Chuka Umunna has been talking to Anna Soubry for months about forming a new SDP style party as he cannot stand Corbyn and his socialism and lack of support for the single market much longer?
You only have to see En Marche made up of breakaway Les Republicains and Socialist politicians as an example of how quickly a new centrist party can emerge under a charismatic leader0 -
Shadow CabinetReggieCide said:
define seniorRoger said:Listening to Question Time made me wonder if there are any senior Labour politicians less articulate than Barry Gardiner?
0 -
No, I haven't, but I see Roger is racist against people with Aspergers.Roger said:
Have you got Aspergers?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Leave 52%alex. said:
It's no different to something like the Monarchy in Australia. Ask a straight question - do you want to abolish the monarchy - and abolition wins. Put the monarchy up against any predetermined alternative and abolition loses.LordOfReason said:
Remain would win such a vote by a landslide against this backdrop, and a three way discussion and vote. It wasn’t structured binary last time to give the voters a voice but simply contrive a remain win. To genuinely give the voters a steer for parliament to then act on, and in so doing ensuring a proper educational debate, it would have contained 3 or 4 options last time.NorthofStoke said:
It may happen (possibly a provisionally agreed compromise deal instead of Single Market).The timing and logistics would be horrible and ther would have to be an extension of leaving date I suspect. STV? I'm guessing May's deal would win then!chloe said:
Nobody really knows why people voted the way they did. Both campaigns were awful. The government can’t agree what to do so how about postponing A50 and have a people’s vote with remain, SIngle market and WTO options with factual information about what each option entails?alex. said:
I think most of the electorate probably just want the whole d*mn thing over with and are fed up with the politicians for not just getting on with it. Given that one day the 'rebels' are the remainers and the next they are leavers it's a pox on all their houses. Even worse is that every time anyone rebels they hide behind the excuse that their position is not necessarily based on fundamental principle, but just because the people will get angry that it is not what the voted (or didn't) for.NorthofStoke said:I think we are now in a situation where no potential solution has a majority in either the Commons or the electorate (including no deal and even exiting Brexit - if that is possible). May's approach is as close to an overall compromise as we are likely to see. If it is wiped out then how on earth will a new status quo that is remotely stable be achieved?
The problem with Brexit of course is that Remain + Soft Brexiteers beats Hard Brexiteers by a landslide. But Hard Brexiteers claim to have a majority of the leave vote so think that they should hold sway, because the opinions of remainers don't matter.
Remain 48%0 -
Nope as 408 out of 650 Westminster seats voted Leave, indeed the Tories have a majority of Leave seats just like Labour, just Labour also has a higher percentage of Remain seatskle4 said:
Most, not all, and in the right places that will mean many lost seats.HYUFD said:
Except you ignore the fact you are a minority in the current Tory Party, most Tories and most Tory seats back hard BrexitBig_G_NorthWales said:
I doubt the party will split but if JRM engineers a VNOC in the government then the prospects are that the party would be decimated and lots of these Brexiteers will lose their seats even though they fought against a soft BrexitHYUFD said:
Utter rubbish. A Tory split would lead to the creation of a UK En Marche style party within months.kle4 said:
I think you underestimate that Labour will draw strength from the Tory weakness. A tory split would ensure Labour will win, and we know that the naysayers to Corbyn still back a Labour government under Corbyn to anything else (except Woodcock). Knowing he will win because of a Tory split will make them more inclined to stick together, not less.HYUFD said:
At which point Labour would surely split soon after. The Corbynistas keeping the Labour Party and the hard Brexiteers the Tory Party and the Blairites joining with Tory Remainers.chloe said:
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership
Don't you realise Chuka Umunna has been talking to Anna Soubry for months about forming a new SDP style party as he cannot stand Corbyn and his socialism and lack of support for the single market much longer?0 -
Does not stop it being trueRoger said:
Have you got Aspergers? You've used exactly the same post many hundreds of times.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Leave 52%alex. said:
It's no different to something like the Monarchy in Australia. Ask a straight question - do you want to abolish the monarchy - and abolition wins. Put the monarchy up against any predetermined alternative and abolition loses.LordOfReason said:
Remain would win such a vote by a landslide against this backdrop, and a three way discussion and vote. It wasn’t structured binary last time to give the voters a voice but simply contrive a remain win. To genuinely give the voters a steer for parliament to then act on, and in so doing ensuring a proper educational debate, it would have contained 3 or 4 options last time.NorthofStoke said:
It may happen (possibly a provisionally agreed compromise deal instead of Single Market).The timing and logistics would be horrible and ther would have to be an extension of leaving date I suspect. STV? I'm guessing May's deal would win then!chloe said:
Nobody really knows why people voted the way they did. Both campaigns were awful. The government can’t agree what to do so how about postponing A50 and have a people’s vote with remain, SIngle market and WTO options with factual information about what each option entails?alex. said:
I think most of the electorate probably just want the whole d*mn thing over with and are fed up with the politicians for not just getting on with it. Given that one day the 'rebels' are the remainers and the next they are leavers it's a pox on all their houses. Even worse is that every time anyone rebels they hide behind the excuse that their position is not necessarily based on fundamental principle, but just because the people will get angry that it is not what the voted (or didn't) for.NorthofStoke said:I think we are now in a situation where no potential solution has a majority in either the Commons or the electorate (including no deal and even exiting Brexit - if that is possible). May's approach is as close to an overall compromise as we are likely to see. If it is wiped out then how on earth will a new status quo that is remotely stable be achieved?
The problem with Brexit of course is that Remain + Soft Brexiteers beats Hard Brexiteers by a landslide. But Hard Brexiteers claim to have a majority of the leave vote so think that they should hold sway, because the opinions of remainers don't matter.
Remain 48%0 -
No that is not true. You are falling for JRM , who has at most 25% of the MPs. I may be a minority in the membership but you cannot say most back a hard Brexit. Even JRM wants a deal, not a hard Brexit.HYUFD said:
Except you ignore the fact you are a minority in the current Tory Party, most Tories and most Tory seats back hard BrexitBig_G_NorthWales said:
I doubt the party will split but if JRM engineers a VNOC in the government then the prospects are that the party would be decimated and lots of these Brexiteers will lose their seats even though they fought against a soft BrexitHYUFD said:
Utter rubbish. A Tory split would lead to the creation of a UK En Marche style party within months.kle4 said:
I think you underestimate that Labour will draw strength from the Tory weakness. A tory split would ensure Labour will win, and we know that the naysayers to Corbyn still back a Labour government under Corbyn to anything else (except Woodcock). Knowing he will win because of a Tory split will make them more inclined to stick together, not less.HYUFD said:
At which point Labour would surely split soon after. The Corbynistas keeping the Labour Party and the hard Brexiteers the Tory Party and the Blairites joining with Tory Remainers.chloe said:
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership
Don't you realise Chuka Umunna has been talking to Anna Soubry for months about forming a new SDP style party as he cannot stand Corbyn and his socialism and lack of support for the single market much longer?
Please do not try to belittle my contribution to my party over the last 55 years0 -
If the Corbynites are still in control of Labour in 5 years and hard Brexiteers in control of the Tories it will happen, it would be a question of if not whenkle4 said:
Talking about it is very different from doing it. That they've talked about it so long with nothing coming from it is proof it will go no further.HYUFD said:
Absolutely, indeed despite your denials he is already in talks for just such a new party in the event Corbynistas maintain an indefinite hold over the Labour Party. It would also be a breakaway centrist party not a breakaway Tory Party.kle4 said:
You think Chuka and anyone else would join a Tory breakaway faction? That is what is utter rubbish. There's a reason neither he nor Soubry have done more than moan, sible.HYUFD said:
Utter rubbish. A Tory split would lead to the creation of a UK En Marche style party within months.kle4 said:
I think you underestimate that Labour will draw strength from the Tory weakness. A tory split would ensure Labour will win, and we know that the naysayers to Corbyn still back a Labour government under Corbyn to anything else (except Woodcock). Knowing he will win because of a Tory split will make them more inclined to stick together, not less.HYUFD said:
At which point Labour would surely split soon after. The Corbynistas keeping the Labour Party and the hard Brexiteers the Tory Party and the Blairites joining with Tory Remainers.chloe said:
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership
Don't you realise Chuka Umunna has been talking to Anna Soubry for months about forming a new SDP style party as he cannot stand Corbyn and his socialism and lack of support for the single market much longer?
You only have to see En Marche made up of breakaway Les Republicains and Socialist politicians as an example of how quickly a new centrist party can emerge under a charismatic leader0 -
Portillo: It's just dawned on me that there are only two possible outcomes of Brexit: to be a colony of the EU or to be a member of the EU.0
-
ReallyLordOfReason said:
I was thinking of you as I wrote it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
That is a pretty colourful last paragraph but fairly accurateLordOfReason said:There is nothing for it, but to use the ultimate bad language. May is the Tory Gordon Brown. Greasy Pole Champion and nothing else.
Labour took too long to realise what Brown was doing to them. Now the Tory’s make the same mistake.
David to Harriet “what are you clapping that for, you voted for it?”
Harriet “Eds my leader and I support him”
Well we know how that turned out. How principleless, opportunist, loyalist brown nosing pee panting spineless ignorant shorttermist drivel always turns out.0 -
Actually, polling has suggested the exact inverse for approximately the last 12 months.HYUFD said:
Does not stop it being trueRoger said:
Have you got Aspergers? You've used exactly the same post many hundreds of times.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Leave 52%alex. said:
It's no different to something like the Monarchy in Australia. Ask a straight question - do you want to abolish the monarchy - and abolition wins. Put the monarchy up against any predetermined alternative and abolition loses.LordOfReason said:
Remain would win such a vote by a landslide against this backdrop, and a three way discussion and vote. It wasn’t structured binary last time to give the voters a voice but simply contrive a remain win. To genuinely give the voters a steer for parliament to then act on, and in so doing ensuring a proper educational debate, it would have contained 3 or 4 options last time.NorthofStoke said:
It may happen (possibly a provisionally agreed compromise deal instead of Single Market).The timing and logistics would be horrible and ther would have to be an extension of leaving date I suspect. STV? I'm guessing May's deal would win then!chloe said:
Nobody really knows why people voted the way they did. Both campaigns were awful. The government can’t agree what to do so how about postponing A50 and have a people’s vote with remain, SIngle market and WTO options with factual information about what each option entails?alex. said:
I think most of the electorate probably just want the whole d*mn thing over with and are fed up with the politicians for not just getting on with it. Given that one day the 'rebels' are the remainers and the next they are leavers it's a pox on all their houses. Even worse is that every time anyone rebels they hide behind the excuse that their position is not necessarily based on fundamental principle, but just because the people will get angry that it is not what the voted (or didn't) for.NorthofStoke said:I think we are now in a situation where no potential solution has a majority in either the Commons or the electorate (including no deal and even exiting Brexit - if that is possible). May's approach is as close to an overall compromise as we are likely to see. If it is wiped out then how on earth will a new status quo that is remotely stable be achieved?
The problem with Brexit of course is that Remain + Soft Brexiteers beats Hard Brexiteers by a landslide. But Hard Brexiteers claim to have a majority of the leave vote so think that they should hold sway, because the opinions of remainers don't matter.
Remain 48%0 -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_euro_referendum,_2000RobD said:
Haven't the Danes had a referendum on Euro membership?RoyalBlue said:Good for Bulgaria on making progress with Euro membership. They have already pegged their currency to the single currency, so they may as well go all-in and join it.
Same for Denmark.
"LEAVE" 53.2%
"REMAIN" 46.8% 0 -
I didn't say they didn't. Not everyone who voted leave backs a no deal Brexit. May's deal might lose the tories more seats, but no deal will still loSE them some too.HYUFD said:
Nope as 408 out of 650 Westminster seats voted Leave, indeed the Tories have a majority of Leave seats just like Labour, just Labour also has a higher percentage of Remain seatskle4 said:
Most, not all, and in the right places that will mean many lost seats.HYUFD said:
Except you ignore the fact you are a minority in the current Tory Party, most Tories and most Tory seats back hard BrexitBig_G_NorthWales said:
I doubt the party will split but if JRM engineers a VNOC in the government then the prospects are that the party would be decimated and lots of these Brexiteers will lose their seats even though they fought against a soft BrexitHYUFD said:
Utter rubbish. A Tory split would lead to the creation of a UK En Marche style party within months.kle4 said:
I think you underestimate that Labour will draw strength from the Tory weakness. A tory split would ensure Labour will win, and we know that the naysayers to Corbyn still back a Labour government under Corbyn to anything else (except Woodcock). Knowing he will win because of a Tory split will make them more inclined to stick together, not less.HYUFD said:
At which point Labour would surely split soon after. The Corbynistas keeping the Labour Party and the hard Brexiteers the Tory Party and the Blairites joining with Tory Remainers.chloe said:
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership
Don't you realise Chuka Umunna has been talking to Anna Soubry for months about forming a new SDP style party as he cannot stand Corbyn and his socialism and lack of support for the single market much longer?0 -
No it is true. Both Yougov and Conservative Home have about 60% of members rejecting May's deal and Tory members preferring hard Brexit to soft Brexit.Big_G_NorthWales said:
No that is not true. You are falling for JRM , who has at most 25% of the MPs. I may be a minority in the membership but you cannot say most back a hard Brexit. Even JRM wants a deal, not a hard Brexit.HYUFD said:
Except you ignore the fact you are a minority in the current Tory Party, most Tories and most Tory seats back hard BrexitBig_G_NorthWales said:
I doubt the party will split but if JRM engineers a VNOC in the government then the prospects are that the party would be decimated and lots of these Brexiteers will lose their seats even though they fought against a soft BrexitHYUFD said:
Utter rubbish. A Tory split would lead to the creation of a UK En Marche style party within months.kle4 said:
I think you underestimate that Labour will draw strength from the Tory weakness. A tory split would ensure Labour will win, and we know that the naysayers to Corbyn still back a Labour government under Corbyn to anything else (except Woodcock). Knowing he will win because of a Tory split will make them more inclined to stick together, not less.HYUFD said:
At which point Labour would surely split soon after. The Corbynistas keeping the Labour Party and the hard Brexiteers the Tory Party and the Blairites joining with Tory Remainers.chloe said:
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership
Don't you realise Chuka Umunna has been talking to Anna Soubry for months about forming a new SDP style party as he cannot stand Corbyn and his socialism and lack of support for the single market much longer?
Please do not try to belittle my contribution to my party over the last 55 years
Plenty of Blairites also worked hard in Labour too that does not mean they are not losing control of their party too0 -
The flaw there is charismatic and Chuka in the same line of argument.HYUFD said:
Absolutely, indeed despite your denials he is already in talks for just such a new party in the event Corbynistas maintain an indefinite hold over the Labour Party. It would also be a breakaway centrist party not a breakaway Tory Party.kle4 said:
You think Chuka and anyone else would join a Tory breakaway faction? That is what is utter rubbish. There's a reason neither he nor Soubry have done more than moan, why the LDs are moribund, why even those Lab MPs who thought Corbyn would see the party crushed in 2017 still backed him for PM - none of them are going anywhere to join together, certainly not in significant numbers. The tribalism is too strong. A tory split is only possible because, on Brexit, and their being in government, makes their agreement impossible. And even then most will just stay put and just make a working government impossible.HYUFD said:
Utter rubbish. A Tory split would lead to the creation of a UK En Marche style party within months.kle4 said:
I think you underestimate that Labour will draw strength from the Tory weakness. A tory split would ensure Labour will win, and we know that the naysayers to Corbyn still back a Labour government under Corbyn to anything else (except Woodcock). Knowing he will win because of a Tory split will make them more inclined to stick together, not less.HYUFD said:
At which point Labour would surely split soon after. The Corbynistas keeping the Labour Party and the hard Brexiteers the Tory Party and the Blairites joining with Tory Remainers.chloe said:
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership
Don't you realise Chuka Umunna has been talking to Anna Soubry for months about forming a new SDP style party as he cannot stand Corbyn and his socialism and lack of support for the single market much longer?
You only have to see En Marche made up of breakaway Les Republicains and Socialist politicians as an example of how quickly a new centrist party can emerge under a charismatic leader0 -
Portillo is another one making the slow intellectual journey back to Remain.williamglenn said:Portillo: It's just dawned on me that there are only two possible outcomes of Brexit: to be a colony of the EU or to be a member of the EU.
His colony nonsense shows how toxic the discourse now is, though. A non vassal Brexit was (maybe still is) possible but only using EEA as a halfway house.0 -
Turns out you've been closest to being right this whole time.williamglenn said:Portillo: It's just dawned on me that there are only two possible outcomes of Brexit: to be a colony of the EU or to be a member of the EU.
0 -
Wth respect I think you are getting carried awayHYUFD said:
No it is true. Both Yougov and Conservative Home have about 60% of members rejecting May's deal and Tory members preferring hard Brexit to soft Brexit.Big_G_NorthWales said:
No that is not true. You are falling for JRM , who has at most 25% of the MPs. I may be a minority in the membership but you cannot say most back a hard Brexit. Even JRM wants a deal, not a hard Brexit.HYUFD said:
Except you ignore the fact you are a minority in the current Tory Party, most Tories and most Tory seats back hard BrexitBig_G_NorthWales said:
I doubt the party will split but if JRM engineers a VNOC in the government then the prospects are that the party would be decimated and lots of these Brexiteers will lose their seats even though they fought against a soft BrexitHYUFD said:
Utter rubbish. A Tory split would lead to the creation of a UK En Marche style party within months.kle4 said:
I think you underestimate that Labour will draw strength from the Tory weakness. A tory split would ensure Labour will win, and we know that the naysayers to Corbyn still back a Labour government under Corbyn to anything else (except Woodcock). Knowing he will win because of a Tory split will make them more inclined to stick together, not less.HYUFD said:
At which point Labour would surely split soon after. The Corbynistas keeping the Labour Party and the hard Brexiteers the Tory Party and the Blairites joining with Tory Remainers.chloe said:
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership
Don't you realise Chuka Umunna has been talking to Anna Soubry for months about forming a new SDP style party as he cannot stand Corbyn and his socialism and lack of support for the single market much longer?
Please do not try to belittle my contribution to my party over the last 55 years
Plenty of Blairites also worked hard in Labour too that does not mean they are not losing control of their party too0 -
Is Aspergers a race? But ignoring that technicality what would be wrong with asking whether you have Aspergers when you appear to have the symptoms?Sunil_Prasannan said:
No, I haven't, but I see Roger is racist against people with Aspergers.Roger said:
Have you got Aspergers?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Leave 52%alex. said:
Ask a straight question - do you want to abolish the monarchy - and abolition wins. Put the monarchy up against any predetermined alternative and abolition loses.LordOfReason said:
Remain would win such a vote by a landslide against this backdrop, and a three way discussion and vote. It wasn’t structured binary last time to give the voters a voice but simply contrive a remain win. To genuinely give the voters a steer for parliament to then act on, and in so doing ensuring a proper educational debate, it would have contained 3 or 4 options last time.NorthofStoke said:
It may happen (possibly a provisionally agreed compromise deal instead of Single Market).The timing and logistics would be horrible and ther would have to be an extension of leaving date I suspect. STV? I'm guessing May's deal would win then!chloe said:
Nobody really knows why people voted the way they did. Both campaigns were awful. The government can’t agree what to do so how about postponing A50 and have a people’s vote with remain, SIngle market and WTO options with factual information about what each option entails?alex. said:
I think most of the electorate probably just want the whole d*mn thing over with and are fed up with the politicians for not just getting on with it. Given that one day the 'rebels' are the remainers and the next they are leavers it's a pox on all their houses. Even worse is that every time anyone rebels they hide behind the excuse that their position is not necessarily based on fundamental principle, but just because the people will get angry that it is not what the voted (or didn't) for.NorthofStoke said:I think we are now in a situation where no potential solution has a majority in either the Commons or the electorate (including no deal and even exiting Brexit - if that is possible). May's approach is as close to an overall compromise as we are likely to see. If it is wiped out then how on earth will a new status quo that is remotely stable be achieved?
The problem with Brexit of course is that Remain + Soft Brexiteers beats Hard Brexiteers by a landslide. But Hard Brexiteers claim to have a majority of the leave vote so think that they should hold sway, because the opinions of remainers don't matter.
Remain 48%0 -
No, polling is also indistinguishable from that pre referendumGardenwalker said:
Actually, polling has suggested the exact inverse for approximately the last 12 months.HYUFD said:
Does not stop it being trueRoger said:
Have you got Aspergers? You've used exactly the same post many hundreds of times.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Leave 52%alex. said:
It's no different to something like the Monarchy in Australia. Ask a straight question - do you want to abolish the monarchy - and abolition wins. Put the monarchy up against any predetermined alternative and abolition loses.LordOfReason said:
Remain would win such a vote by a landslide against this backdrop, and a three way discussion and vote. It wasn’t structured binary last time to give the voters a voice but simply contrive a remain win. To genuinely give the voters a steer for parliament to then act on, and in so doing ensuring a proper educational debate, it would have contained 3 or 4 options last time.NorthofStoke said:
It may happen (possibly a provisionally agreed compromise deal instead of Single Market).The timing and logistics would be horrible and ther would have to be an extension of leaving date I suspect. STV? I'm guessing May's deal would win then!chloe said:
Nobody really knows why people voted the way they did. Both campaigns were awful. The government can’t agree what to do so how about postponing A50 and have a people’s vote with remain, SIngle market and WTO options with factual information about what each option entails?alex. said:
I think most of the electorate probably just want the whole d*mn voted (or didn't) for.NorthofStoke said:I think we are now in a situation where no potential solution has a majority in either the Commons or the electorate (including no deal and even exiting Brexit - if that is possible). May's approach is as close to an overall compromise as we are likely to see. If it is wiped out then how on earth will a new status quo that is remotely stable be achieved?
The problem with Brexit of course is that Remain + Soft Brexiteers beats Hard Brexiteers by a landslide. But Hard Brexiteers claim to have a majority of the leave vote so think that they should hold sway, because the opinions of remainers don't matter.
Remain 48%0 -
No deal in North Wales and Cheshire will wipe the conservatives outkle4 said:
I didn't say they didn't. Not everyone who voted leave backs a no deal Brexit. May's deal might lose the tories more seats, but no deal will still loSE them some too.HYUFD said:
Nope as 408 out of 650 Westminster seats voted Leave, indeed the Tories have a majority of Leave seats just like Labour, just Labour also has a higher percentage of Remain seatskle4 said:
Most, not all, and in the right places that will mean many lost seats.HYUFD said:
Except you ignore the fact you are a minority in the current Tory Party, most Tories and most Tory seats back hard BrexitBig_G_NorthWales said:
I doubt the party will split but if JRM engineers a VNOC in the government then the prospects are that the party would be decimated and lots of these Brexiteers will lose their seats even though they fought against a soft BrexitHYUFD said:
Utter rubbish. A Tory split would lead to the creation of a UK En Marche style party within months.kle4 said:
I think you underestimate that Labour will draw strength from the Tory weakness. A tory split would ensure Labour will win, and we know that the naysayers to Corbyn still back a Labour government under Corbyn to anything else (except Woodcock). Knowing he will win because of a Tory split will make them more inclined to stick together, not less.HYUFD said:
At which point Labour would surely split soon after. The Corbynistas keeping the Labour Party and the hard Brexiteers the Tory Party and the Blairites joining with Tory Remainers.chloe said:
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership
Don't you realise Chuka Umunna has been talking to Anna Soubry for months about forming a new SDP style party as he cannot stand Corbyn and his socialism and lack of support for the single market much longer?
0 -
To be fair, Sunil is just one of many Brexiters whose only remaining argument is, “but the people voted for it”. Sunil just can’t be bothered attempting elegant variation.Roger said:
Have you got Aspergers? You've used exactly the same post many hundreds of times.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Leave 52%alex. said:
It's no different to something like the Monarchy in Australia. Ask a straight question - do you want to abolish the monarchy - and abolition wins. Put the monarchy up against any predetermined alternative and abolition loses.LordOfReason said:
Remain would win such a vote by a landslide against this backdrop, and a three way discussion and vote. It wasn’t structured binary last time to give the voters a voice but simply contrive a remain win. To genuinely give the voters a steer for parliament to then act on, and in so doing ensuring a proper educational debate, it would have contained 3 or 4 options last time.NorthofStoke said:
It may happen (possibly a provisionally agreed compromise deal instead of Single Market).The timing and logistics would be horrible and ther would have to be an extension of leaving date I suspect. STV? I'm guessing May's deal would win then!chloe said:
Nobody really knows why people voted the way they did. Both campaigns were awful. The government can’t agree what to do so how about postponing A50 and have a people’s vote with remain, SIngle market and WTO options with factual information about what each option entails?alex. said:
I think most of the electorate probably just want the whole d*mn thing over with and are fed up with the politicians for not just getting on with it. Given that one day the 'rebels' are the remainers and the next they are leavers it's a pox on all their houses. Even worse is that every time anyone rebels they hide behind the excuse that their position is not necessarily based on fundamental principle, but just because the people will get angry that it is not what the voted (or didn't) for.NorthofStoke said:I think we are now in a situation where no potential solution has a majority in either the Commons or the electorate (including no deal and even exiting Brexit - if that is possible). May's approach is as cloerall compromise as we are likely to see. If it is wiped out then how on earth will a new status quo that is remotely stable be achieved?
The problem with Brexit of course is that Remain + Soft Brexiteers beats Hard Brexiteers by a landslide. But Hard Brexiteers claim to have a majority of the leave vote so think that they should hold sway, because the opinions of remainers don't matter.
Remain 48%0 -
I agree and I never thought I would say that.kle4 said:
Turns out you've been closest to being right this whole time.williamglenn said:Portillo: It's just dawned on me that there are only two possible outcomes of Brexit: to be a colony of the EU or to be a member of the EU.
0 -
If they were going to go Tory Remain seats likely went Labour or LD in 2017 when May backed hard Brexit, at least in theory, next time no deal could well see some Labour Remain seats go LD and some Labour Leave seats going Torykle4 said:
I didn't say they didn't. Not everyone who voted leave backs a no deal Brexit. May's deal might lose the tories more seats, but no deal will still loSE them some too.HYUFD said:
Nope as 408 out of 650 Westminster seats voted Leave, indeed the Tories have a majority of Leave seats just like Labour, just Labour also has a higher percentage of Remain seatskle4 said:
Most, not all, and in the right places that will mean many lost seats.HYUFD said:
Except you ignore the fact you are a minority in the current Tory Party, most Tories and most Tory seats back hard BrexitBig_G_NorthWales said:
I doubt the party will split but if JRM engineers a VNOC in the government then the prospects are that the party would be decimated and lots of these Brexiteers will lose their seats even though they fought against a soft BrexitHYUFD said:
Utter rubbish. A Tory split would lead to the creation of a UK En Marche style party within months.kle4 said:
I think you underestimate that Labour will draw strength from the Tory weakness. A tory split would ensure Labour will win, and we know that the naysayers to Corbyn still back a Labour government under Corbyn to anything else (except Woodcock). Knowing he will win because of a Tory split will make them more inclined to stick together, not less.HYUFD said:
At which point Labour would surely split soon after. The Corbynistas keeping the Labour Party and the hard Brexiteers the Tory Party and the Blairites joining with Tory Remainers.chloe said:
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership
Don't you realise Chuka Umunna has been talking to Anna Soubry for months about forming a new SDP style party as he cannot stand Corbyn and his socialism and lack of support for the single market much longer?0 -
Me? Are you kidding? Hey, I was with you all the time! That was beautiful! Did you see the way the Leavers fell into our trap! Ha ha!Gardenwalker said:
To be fair, Sunil is just one of many Brexiters whose only remaining argument is, “but the people voted for it”. Sunil just can’t be bothered attempting elegant variation.Roger said:
Have you got Aspergers? You've used exactly the same post many hundreds of times.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Leave 52%alex. said:
It's no different to something like the Monarchy in Australia. Ask a straight question - do you want to abolish the monarchy - and abolition wins. Put the monarchy up against any predetermined alternative and abolition loses.LordOfReason said:
Remain would win such a vote by a landslide against this backdrop, and a three way discussion and vote. It wasn’t structured binary last time to give the voters a voice but simply contrive a remain win. To genuinely give the voters a steer for parliament to then act on, and in so doing ensuring a proper educational debate, it would have contained 3 or 4 options last time.NorthofStoke said:
It may happen (possibly a provisionally agreed compromise deal instead of Single Market).The timing and logistics would be horrible and ther would have to be an extension of leaving date I suspect. STV? I'm guessing May's deal would win then!chloe said:
Nobody really knows why people voted the way they did. Both campaigns were awful. The government can’t agree what to do so how about postponing A50 and have a people’s vote with remain, SIngle market and WTO options with factual information about what each option entails?alex. said:NorthofStoke said:I think we are now in a situation where no potential solution has a majority in either the Commons or the electorate (including no deal and even exiting Brexit - if that is possible). May's approach is as cloerall compromise as we are likely to see. If it is wiped out then how on earth will a new status quo that is remotely stable be achieved?
The problem with Brexit of course is that Remain + Soft Brexiteers beats Hard Brexiteers by a landslide. But Hard Brexiteers claim to have a majority of the leave vote so think that they should hold sway, because the opinions of remainers don't matter.
Remain 48%0 -
Michael Portillo has a famous motto:Gardenwalker said:
Portillo is another one making the slow intellectual journey back to Remain.williamglenn said:Portillo: It's just dawned on me that there are only two possible outcomes of Brexit: to be a colony of the EU or to be a member of the EU.
His colony nonsense shows how toxic the discourse now is, though. A non vassal Brexit was (maybe still is) possible but only using EEA as a halfway house.
Who Dares Wins!
WE dare!
WE will WIN!0 -
He is obviously slower than I thought .....williamglenn said:Portillo: It's just dawned on me that there are only two possible outcomes of Brexit: to be a colony of the EU or to be a member of the EU.
0 -
Another point of agreement between us. Mr Glenn has been nothing if not consistent. And he may turn out to have been correct as well.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I agree and I never thought I would say that.kle4 said:
Turns out you've been closest to being right this whole time.williamglenn said:Portillo: It's just dawned on me that there are only two possible outcomes of Brexit: to be a colony of the EU or to be a member of the EU.
0 -
No Deal will only be a prospect as I have already made clear if the EU refuse a FTA in the transition period.Big_G_NorthWales said:
No deal in North Wales and Cheshire will wipe the conservatives outkle4 said:
I didn't say they didn't. Not everyone who voted leave backs a no deal Brexit. May's deal might lose the tories more seats, but no deal will still loSE them some too.HYUFD said:
Nope as 408 out of 650 Westminster seats voted Leave, indeed the Tories have a majority of Leave seats just like Labour, just Labour also has a higher percentage of Remain seatskle4 said:
Most, not all, and in the right places that will mean many lost seats.HYUFD said:
Except you ignore the fact you are a minority in the current Tory Party, most Tories and most Tory seats back hard BrexitBig_G_NorthWales said:
I doubt the party will split but if JRM engineers a VNOC in the government then the prospects are that the party would be decimated and lots of these Brexiteers will lose their seats even though they fought against a soft BrexitHYUFD said:
Utter rubbish. A Tory split would lead to the creation of a UK En Marche style party within months.kle4 said:
I think you underestimate that Labour will draw strength from the not less.HYUFD said:
At which point Labour would surely split soon after. The Corbynistas keeping the Labour Party and the hard Brexiteers the Tory Party and the Blairites joining with Tory Remainers.chloe said:
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership
Don't you realise Chuka Umunna has been talking to Anna Soubry for months about forming a new SDP style party as he cannot stand Corbyn and his socialism and lack of support for the single market much longer?
Then it will be accepting continued transition that will cost the Tories seats, especially Leave seats with a rising UKIP vote not no deal0 -
You do not seem to comprehend just how bad a no deal would be especially in the short termHYUFD said:
If they were going to go Tory Remain seats likely went Labour or LD in 2017 when May backed hard Brexit, at least in theory, next time no deal could well see some Labour Remain seats go LD and some Labour Leave seats going Torykle4 said:
I didn't say they didn't. Not everyone who voted leave backs a no deal Brexit. May's deal might lose the tories more seats, but no deal will still loSE them some too.HYUFD said:
Nope as 408 out of 650 Westminster seats voted Leave, indeed the Tories have a majority of Leave seats just like Labour, just Labour also has a higher percentage of Remain seatskle4 said:
Most, not all, and in the right places that will mean many lost seats.HYUFD said:
Except you ignore the fact you are a minority in the current Tory Party, most Tories and most Tory seats back hard BrexitBig_G_NorthWales said:
I doubt the party will split but if JRM engineers a VNOC in the government then the prospects are that the party would be decimated and lots of these Brexiteers will lose their seats even though they fought against a soft BrexitHYUFD said:
Don't you realise Chuka Umunna has been talking to Anna Soubry for months about forming a new SDP style party as he cannot stand Corbyn and his socialism and lack of support for the single market much longer?kle4 said:
I think you underestimate that Labour will draw strength from the Tory weakness. A tory split would ensure Labour will win, and we know that the naysayers to Corbyn still back a Labour government under Corbyn to anything else (except Woodcock). Knowing he will win because of a Tory split will make them more inclined to stick together, not less.HYUFD said:chloe said:
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.kle4 said:One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership
Collapsed pound and market, capital flight and cancelled investment, indeed no difference to Corbyn wnning an election0 -
I expect most PBers have at least some Aspergers symptoms even if not fully with the conditionRoger said:
Is Aspergers a race? But ignoring that technicality what would be wrong with asking whether you have Aspergers when you appear to have the symptoms?Sunil_Prasannan said:
No, I haven't, but I see Roger is racist against people with Aspergers.Roger said:
Have you got Aspergers?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Leave 52%alex. said:
Ask a straight question - do you want to abolish the monarchy - and abolition wins. Put the monarchy up against any predetermined alternative and abolition loses.LordOfReason said:
Remain would win such a vote by a landslide against this backdrop, 4 options last time.NorthofStoke said:
It may happen (possibly a provisionally agreed compromise deal instead of Single Market).The timing and logistics would be horrible and ther would have to be an extension of leaving date I suspect. STV? I'm guessing May's deal would win then!chloe said:
Nobody really knows why people voted the way they did. Both campaigns were awful. The government can’t agree what to do so how about postponing A50 and have a people’s vote with remain, SIngle market and WTO options with factual information about what each option entails?alex. said:
I think most of the electorate probably just want the whole d*mn thing over with and are fed up with the politicians for not just getting on with it. Given that one day the 'rebels' are the remainers and the next they are leavers it's a pox on all their houses. Even worse is that every time anyone rebels they hide behind the excuse that their position is not necessarily based on fundamental principle, but just because the people will get angry that it is not what the voted (or didn't) for.NorthofStoke said:I think we are now in a situation where no potential solution has a majority in either the Commons or the electorate (including no deal and even exiting Brexit - if that is possible). May's approach is as close to an overall compromise as we are likely to see. If it is wiped out then how on earth will a new status quo that is remotely stable be achieved?
The problem with Brexit of course is that Remain + Soft Brexiteers beats Hard Brexiteers by a landslide. But Hard Brexiteers claim to have a majority of the leave vote so think that they should hold sway, because the opinions of remainers don't matter.
Remain 48%0 -
Farage on This Week now0
