One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership
I think you underestimate that Labour will draw strength from the Tory weakness. A tory split would ensure Labour will win, and we know that the naysayers to Corbyn still back a Labour government under Corbyn to anything else (except Woodcock). Knowing he will win because of a Tory split will make them more inclined to stick together, not less.
Don't you realise Chuka Umunna has been talking to Anna Soubry for months about forming a new SDP style party as he cannot stand Corbyn and his socialism and lack of support for the single market much longer?
I doubt the party will split but if JRM engineers a VNOC in the government then the prospects are that the party would be decimated and lots of these Brexiteers will lose their seats even though they fought against a soft Brexit
Except you ignore the fact you are a minority in the current Tory Party, most Tories and most Tory seats back hard Brexit
Most, not all, and in the right places that will mean many lost seats.
Nope as 408 out of 650 Westminster seats voted Leave, indeed the Tories have a majority of Leave seats just like Labour, just Labour also has a higher percentage of Remain seats
If they were going to go Tory Remain seats likely went Labour or LD in 2017 when May backed hard Brexit, at least in theory, next time no deal could well see some Labour Remain seats go LD and some Labour Leave seats going Tory
election
Yes. And would probably lead to Corbyn *winning* the subsequent election.
Brexit is Midas in reverse: it turns everything to shit - our economy, political stability and good governance, our global influence and our standing in the world.
One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership
I think you underestimate that Labour will draw strength ess.
Don't you realise Chuka Umunna has been talking to Anna Soubry for months about forming a new SDP style party as he cannot stand Corbyn and his socialism and lack of support for the single market much longer?
I doubt the party will split but if JRM engineers a VNOC in the government then the prospects are that the party would be decimated and lots of these Brexiteers will lose their seats even though they fought against a soft Brexit
Except you ignore the fact you are a minority in the current Tory Party, most Tories and most Tory seats back hard Brexit
Most, not all, and in the right places that will mean many lost seats.
Nope as 408 out of 650 Westminster seats voted Leave, indeed the Tories have a majority of Leave seats just like Labour, just Labour also has a higher percentage of Remain seats
I didn't say they didn't. Not everyone who voted leave backs a no deal Brexit. May's deal might lose the tories more seats, but no deal will still loSE them some too.
If they were going to go Tory Remain seats likely went Labour or LD g Tory
You do not seem to comprehend just how bad a no deal would be especially in the short term
Collapsed pound and market, capital flight and cancelled investment, indeed no difference to Corbyn wnning an election
No you do not comprehend the fact most Leavers voted Leave to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration. Deny respecting those aims and there will be hell to pay, as seen by the rising UKIP vote already.
As I have also said it is in the EU's court, if they offer us a FTA fine, if not no deal it is
One fear I have is that even, someone, May gets a version of her plan through so we at least get some deal, even a bad one, there is clearly so much anger in the Tory party over it that whoever wins the leadership next time will probably do so on a promise to change everything about it, so the whole damn thing will just go on for even more years.
The Conservative Party will surely split. The two sides are irreconcilable and I say this having voted for them in the past.
The latter two have more in common with each other thsn their current party membership
I think you underestimate that Labour will draw strength from the Tory weakness. A tory split would ensure Labour will win, and we know that the naysayers to Corbyn still back a Labour government under Corbyn to anything else (except Woodcock). Knowing he will win because of a Tory split will make them more inclined to stick together, not less.
Don't you realise Chuka Umunna has been talking to Anna Soubry for months about forming a new SDP style party as he cannot stand Corbyn and his socialism and lack of support for the single market much longer?
I doubt the party will split but if JRM engineers a VNOC in the government oft Brexit
Except you ignore the fact you are a minority in the current Tory Party, most Tories and most Tory seats back hard Brexit
Most, not all, and in the right places that will mean many lost seats.
Nope as 408 out of 650 Westminster seats voted Leave, indeed the Tories have a majority of Leave seats just like Labour, just Labour also has a higher percentage of Remain seats
If they were going to go Tory Remain seats likely went Labour or LD in 2017 when May backed hard Brexit, at least in theory, next time no deal could well see some Labour Remain seats go LD and some Labour Leave seats going Tory
election
Yes. And would probably lead to Corbyn *winning* the subsequent election.
Brexit is Midas in reverse: it turns everything to shit - our economy, political stability and good governance, our global influence and our standing in the world.
Corbyn backs hard Brexit in all but name too. He also opposes staying in the single market as a matter of ideology
Portillo: It's just dawned on me that there are only two possible outcomes of Brexit: to be a colony of the EU or to be a member of the EU.
Turns out you've been closest to being right this whole time.
I agree and I never thought I would say that.
Another point of agreement between us. Mr Glenn has been nothing if not consistent. And he may turn out to have been correct as well.
The Country has to stop this madness. The HOC need to back May or seek a second vote.
Big G, you’re where I was 18 months ago. Through advanced meditation and some modest capital reallocation I’ve learned to, “Stop Worrying and Love Brexit”. After all, it’s a ringside seat at the most bizarre act of self immolation in the Western Europe since the war.
No you do not comprehend the fact most Leavers voted Leave to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration. Deny respecting those aims and there will be hell to pay, as seen by the rising UKIP vote already.
Hell to pay? For the Conservative Party perhaps, but not everyone cares what happens to the Tory party.
For most people, most of the time, employment, food on the table and a stable economy matter more than sovereignty. If you go hungry, sovereignty does not keep you warm or fed.
Portillo: It's just dawned on me that there are only two possible outcomes of Brexit: to be a colony of the EU or to be a member of the EU.
Turns out you've been closest to being right this whole time.
I agree and I never thought I would say that.
Another point of agreement between us. Mr Glenn has been nothing if not consistent. And he may turn out to have been correct as well.
The Country has to stop this madness. The HOC need to back May or seek a second vote.
Big G, you’re where I was 18 months ago. Through advanced meditation and some modest capital reallocation I’ve learned to, “Stop Worrying and Love Brexit”. After all, it’s a ringside seat at the most bizarre act of self immolation in the Western Europe since the war.
Historians will ponder this insanity forever...
You mean a Europe filled with populist anti migration and anti austerity parties and a US led by Trump with a Democratic party increasingly taken over by Sanders loyalists
No that is not true. You are falling for JRM , who has at most 25% of the MPs. I may be a minority in the membership but you cannot say most back a hard Brexit. Even JRM wants a deal, not a hard Brexit.
Please do not try to belittle my contribution to my party over the last 55 years
Do you feel that it's still your natural home? You seem too unideological for either of the big parties (speaking as someone who is ideological, but I try to listen to those who aren't).
No you do not comprehend the fact most Leavers voted Leave to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration. Deny respecting those aims and there will be hell to pay, as seen by the rising UKIP vote already.
Hell to pay? For the Conservative Party perhaps, but not everyone cares what happens to the Tory party.
For most people, most of the time, employment, food on the table and a stable economy matter more than sovereignty. If you go hungry, sovereignty does not keep you warm or fed.
Except 17 million voted Leave more than have ever voted Tory or Labour at any general election since the war.
It was not just Tories who voted to regain sovereignty and control of their borders
Portillo: It's just dawned on me that there are only two possible outcomes of Brexit: to be a colony of the EU or to be a member of the EU.
Turns out you've been closest to being right this whole time.
I agree and I never thought I would say that.
Another point of agreement between us. Mr Glenn has been nothing if not consistent. And he may turn out to have been correct as well.
The Country has to stop this madness. The HOC need to back May or seek a second vote.
Big G, you’re where I was 18 months ago. Through advanced meditation and some modest capital reallocation I’ve learned to, “Stop Worrying and Love Brexit”. After all, it’s a ringside seat at the most bizarre act of self immolation in the Western Europe since the war.
Historians will ponder this insanity forever...
Hopefully we can draw back from the abyss before it is too late
No you do not comprehend the fact most Leavers voted Leave to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration. Deny respecting those aims and there will be hell to pay, as seen by the rising UKIP vote already.
Hell to pay? For the Conservative Party perhaps, but not everyone cares what happens to the Tory party.
For most people, most of the time, employment, food on the table and a stable economy matter more than sovereignty. If you go hungry, sovereignty does not keep you warm or fed.
Except 17 million voted Leave more than have ever voted Tory or Labour at any general election since the war.
It was not just Tories who voted to regain sovereignty and control of their borders
Except Brexit appears to offer less sovereignty in any meaningful sense and we already had control of borders through Schengen.
No that is not true. You are falling for JRM , who has at most 25% of the MPs. I may be a minority in the membership but you cannot say most back a hard Brexit. Even JRM wants a deal, not a hard Brexit.
Please do not try to belittle my contribution to my party over the last 55 years
Do you feel that it's still your natural home? You seem too unideological for either of the big parties (speaking as someone who is ideological, but I try to listen to those who aren't).
BigG voted for New Labour in 1997 and 2001 and for Remain.
He is not a Tory really more a Tory leaning swing voter
Anecdotally, an awful lot of acquaintances who aren't usually very political seem to be planning to go to the Trump demo tomorrow (I'm not - just too busy). I suspect it'll be unusually big.
No you do not comprehend the fact most Leavers voted Leave to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration. Deny respecting those aims and there will be hell to pay, as seen by the rising UKIP vote already.
Hell to pay? For the Conservative Party perhaps, but not everyone cares what happens to the Tory party.
For most people, most of the time, employment, food on the table and a stable economy matter more than sovereignty. If you go hungry, sovereignty does not keep you warm or fed.
I care for my party and time has come to call for a stop to this madness
No you do not comprehend the fact most Leavers voted Leave to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration. Deny respecting those aims and there will be hell to pay, as seen by the rising UKIP vote already.
Hell to pay? For the Conservative Party perhaps, but not everyone cares what happens to the Tory party.
For most people, most of the time, employment, food on the table and a stable economy matter more than sovereignty. If you go hungry, sovereignty does not keep you warm or fed.
Except 17 million voted Leave more than have ever voted Tory or Labour at any general election since the war.
It was not just Tories who voted to regain sovereignty and control of their borders
Except Brexit appears to offer less sovereignty in any meaningful sense and we already had control of borders through Schengen.
17 million were hoaxed.
No we didn't thanks to Blair and his lack of transition controls.
The Leave prospectus Brexit has not yet been tried, just a May brokered fudge
No you do not comprehend the fact most Leavers voted Leave to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration. Deny respecting those aims and there will be hell to pay, as seen by the rising UKIP vote already.
Hell to pay? For the Conservative Party perhaps, but not everyone cares what happens to the Tory party.
For most people, most of the time, employment, food on the table and a stable economy matter more than sovereignty. If you go hungry, sovereignty does not keep you warm or fed.
Except 17 million voted Leave more than have ever voted Tory or Labour at any general election since the war.
It was not just Tories who voted to regain sovereignty and control of their borders
Except Brexit appears to offer less sovereignty in any meaningful sense and we already had control of borders through Schengen.
17 million were hoaxed.
No we didn't thanks to Blair and his lack of transition controls.
The Leave prospectus Brexit has not yet been tried, just a May brokered fudge
Like the hoaxed 17 million you confuse border control, freedom to work, and freedom of movement.
Portillo calls deal 'a dreadful betrayal' and says he would have quit Cabinet as a result. Parliament will pass the deal but the Tories then must get rid of May and a new leader in not stained by the deal before the next general election
No you do not comprehend the fact most Leavers voted Leave to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration. Deny respecting those aims and there will be hell to pay, as seen by the rising UKIP vote already.
Hell to pay? For the Conservative Party perhaps, but not everyone cares what happens to the Tory party.
For most people, most of the time, employment, food on the table and a stable economy matter more than sovereignty. If you go hungry, sovereignty does not keep you warm or fed.
I care for my party and time has come to call for a stop to this madness
May's way or remain
I cannot see how we avoid "Leave", not at this stage with both main parties seemingly supporting it.
I understand you care about the party you put so much effort into. I, never having been a party member of any party, care less about them and more about keeping things stable and safe and prosperous and I will happily sacrifice any political group that seems to be acting against those objectives.
I have to ask, in all serious, is the Tory party of today the same beast as the Tory party over the last 50 years? The answer is "no". This lot are a shambolic shower more reminiscent of Labour in its darkest days.
No that is not true. You are falling for JRM , who has at most 25% of the MPs. I may be a minority in the membership but you cannot say most back a hard Brexit. Even JRM wants a deal, not a hard Brexit.
Please do not try to belittle my contribution to my party over the last 55 years
Do you feel that it's still your natural home? You seem too unideological for either of the big parties (speaking as someone who is ideological, but I try to listen to those who aren't).
I have always been a conservative as was my Father working in the cotton industry in Lancashire and the ethos of hard work, family, honesty, and being fair to those you employ are my values together with low tax and non intrusive government.
I am sorry about the hard Brexit right causing chaos but I would, like a lot of labour supporters, find it hard to leave and will fight on to hopefully see a sensible pro business and socially aware conservative party again
Portillo calls deal 'a dreadful betrayal' and says he would have quit Cabinet as a result. Parliament will pass the deal but the Tories then must get rid of May and a new leader in not stained by the deal before the next general election
Why would Parliament pass such a “dreadful betrayal”?
Portillo: It's just dawned on me that there are only two possible outcomes of Brexit: to be a colony of the EU or to be a member of the EU.
Turns out you've been closest to being right this whole time.
I agree and I never thought I would say that.
Another point of agreement between us. Mr Glenn has been nothing if not consistent. And he may turn out to have been correct as well.
The Country has to stop this madness. The HOC need to back May or seek a second vote.
Yes. There are only 3 options now.
1. Remain. We can't do that. We would have to admit the whole thing has been a ghastly error, and beg for forgiveness. Wouldn't comply with the vote either. The EU wouldn't have to agree either.
2. Crash Brexit. We have done zero preparation for that one. And there isn't much time. The effects would be pronounced.
3. May's proposal.
Like it or not, 3 is the only sane option. The others are fantasies.
A-tiskit a-taskit, I go tit for tat with anybody who's talking this s*** and that s*** Jeremy Corbyn, you can get your ass kicked Worse than them little Lib Demmic b******* And Javid, you can get stomped by David You forty-eight year old bald headed f**, blow me You don't know me, you're too old, let it go its over, Nobody listens to Rees-Mogg, no Now lets go, just give me the signal I'll be there with a whole list full of new insults I've been dope, suspenseful with a pencil Ever since Johnson turned hisself into a mental But sometimes this s** just seems Everybody only wants to discuss me So this must mean I'm disgusting But it's just me I'm just Tory Though I'm not the first king of controversy I am the worst thing since Maggie T To do Con policy so selfishly And use it to get myself wealthy "Hey" there's a concept that works Twenty million other UKIP nutters emerge But no matter how many fish in the sea It will be so empty without me
Now this looks like a job for me So everybody just follow me 'Cause we need a little controversy 'Cause it feels so empty without me I said, this looks like a job for me So everybody just follow me 'Cause we need a little controversy 'Cause it feels so empty without me...
A-tiskit a-taskit, I go tit for tat with anybody who's talking this s*** and that s*** Jeremy Corbyn, you can get your ass kicked Worse than them little Lib Demmic b******* And Javid, you can get stomped by David You forty-eight year old bald headed f**, blow me You don't know me, you're too old, let it go its over, Nobody listens to Rees-Mogg, no Now lets go, just give me the signal I'll be there with a whole list full of new insults I've been dope, suspenseful with a pencil Ever since Johnson turned hisself into a mental But sometimes this s** just seems Everybody only wants to discuss me So this must mean I'm disgusting But it's just me I'm just Tory Though I'm not the first king of controversy I am the worst thing since Maggie T To do Con policy so selfishly And use it to get myself wealthy "Hey" there's a concept that works Twenty million other UKIP nutters emerge But no matter how many fish in the sea It will be so empty without me
Now this looks like a job for me So everybody just follow me 'Cause we need a little controversy 'Cause it feels so empty without me I said, this looks like a job for me So everybody just follow me 'Cause we need a little controversy 'Cause it feels so empty without me...
I am flattered, but I think you might need to calm down.....
No that is not true. You are falling for JRM , who has at most 25% of the MPs. I may be a minority in the membership but you cannot say most back a hard Brexit. Even JRM wants a deal, not a hard Brexit.
Please do not try to belittle my contribution to my party over the last 55 years
Do you feel that it's still your natural home? You seem too unideological for either of the big parties (speaking as someone who is ideological, but I try to listen to those who aren't).
BigG voted for New Labour in 1997 and 2001 and for Remain.
He is not a Tory really more a Tory leaning swing voter
Give up and stop this insultng nonsense. I have as much right in my party as you do and have only twice in my 75 years on this planet voted labour and that was for Blair
I could suggest you join UKIP but I would not be so rude.
Let us just agree we are at the opposite spectrums of our party
No you do not comprehend the fact most Leavers voted Leave to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration. Deny respecting those aims and there will be hell to pay, as seen by the rising UKIP vote already.
Hell to pay? For the Conservative Party perhaps, but not everyone cares what happens to the Tory party.
For most people, most of the time, employment, food on the table and a stable economy matter more than sovereignty. If you go hungry, sovereignty does not keep you warm or fed.
Except 17 million voted Leave more than have ever voted Tory or Labour at any general election since the war.
It was not just Tories who voted to regain sovereignty and control of their borders
Except Brexit appears to offer less sovereignty in any meaningful sense and we already had control of borders through Schengen.
17 million were hoaxed.
No we didn't thanks to Blair and his lack of transition controls.
The Leave prospectus Brexit has not yet been tried, just a May brokered fudge
Like the hoaxed 17 million you confuse border control, freedom to work, and freedom of movement.
We have always had control of our borders.
Not under freedom of movement and certainly not after Blair's failure to impose transition controls
Portillo calls deal 'a dreadful betrayal' and says he would have quit Cabinet as a result. Parliament will pass the deal but the Tories then must get rid of May and a new leader in not stained by the deal before the next general election
Why would Parliament pass such a “dreadful betrayal”?
As it is a fudge. For Leave voters it would be a betrayal
Portillo: It's just dawned on me that there are only two possible outcomes of Brexit: to be a colony of the EU or to be a member of the EU.
Turns out you've been closest to being right this whole time.
I agree and I never thought I would say that.
Another point of agreement between us. Mr Glenn has been nothing if not consistent. And he may turn out to have been correct as well.
The Country has to stop this madness. The HOC need to back May or seek a second vote.
Yes. There are only 3 options now.
1. Remain. We can't do that. We would have to admit the whole thing has been a ghastly error, and beg for forgiveness. Wouldn't comply with the vote either. The EU wouldn't have to agree either.
2. Crash Brexit. We have done zero preparation for that one. And there isn't much time. The effects would be pronounced.
3. May's proposal.
Like it or not, 3 is the only sane option. The others are fantasies.
Actually I would say that 1 or 3 are options, but it would take a very brave (or desperate) politician to go for number 1.
The reason I think number 1 is still a possibility is because 3 is a much worse position and does not achieve the aim of Brexit anyway. If we are not really going to Brexit then why not stay in?
No that is not true. You are falling for JRM , who has at most 25% of the MPs. I may be a minority in the membership but you cannot say most back a hard Brexit. Even JRM wants a deal, not a hard Brexit.
Please do not try to belittle my contribution to my party over the last 55 years
Do you feel that it's still your natural home? You seem too unideological for either of the big parties (speaking as someone who is ideological, but I try to listen to those who aren't).
BigG voted for New Labour in 1997 and 2001 and for Remain.
He is not a Tory really more a Tory leaning swing voter
Give up and stop this insultng nonsense. I have as much right in my party as you do and have only twice in my 75 years on this planet voted labour and that was for Blair
I could suggest you join UKIP but I would not be so rude.
Let us just agree we are at the opposite spectrums of our party
Well I have never voted Labour nor UKIP.
You clearly lean Tory but to be a proper Tory you need to vote Tory at every election
Portillo: It's just dawned on me that there are only two possible outcomes of Brexit: to be a colony of the EU or to be a member of the EU.
Turns out you've been closest to being right this whole time.
I agree and I never thought I would say that.
Another point of agreement between us. Mr Glenn has been nothing if not consistent. And he may turn out to have been correct as well.
The Country has to stop this madness. The HOC need to back May or seek a second vote.
Yes. There are only 3 options now.
1. Remain. We can't do that. We would have to admit the whole thing has been a ghastly error, and beg for forgiveness. Wouldn't comply with the vote either. The EU wouldn't have to agree either.
2. Crash Brexit. We have done zero preparation for that one. And there isn't much time. The effects would be pronounced.
3. May's proposal.
Like it or not, 3 is the only sane option. The others are fantasies.
Actually I would say that 1 or 3 are options, but it would take a very brave (or desperate) politician to go for number 1.
The reason I think number 1 is still a possibility is because 3 is a much worse position and does not achieve the aim of Brexit anyway. If we are not really going to Brexit then why not stay in?
The EU would agree if we gave up the rebate.
I think it achieves quite a lot of the aims. May not be perfect, but if the longer we stayed in, the more difficult it would be to leave.
No that is not true. You are falling for JRM , who has at most 25% of the MPs. I may be a minority in the membership but you cannot say most back a hard Brexit. Even JRM wants a deal, not a hard Brexit.
Please do not try to belittle my contribution to my party over the last 55 years
Do you feel that it's still your natural home? You seem too unideological for either of the big parties (speaking as someone who is ideological, but I try to listen to those who aren't).
BigG voted for New Labour in 1997 and 2001 and for Remain.
He is not a Tory really more a Tory leaning swing voter
Give up and stop this insultng nonsense. I have as much right in my party as you do and have only twice in my 75 years on this planet voted labour and that was for Blair
I could suggest you join UKIP but I would not be so rude.
Let us just agree we are at the opposite spectrums of our party
Well I have never voted Labour nor UKIP.
You clearly lean Tory but to be a proper Tory you need to vote Tory at every election
Oh well, counts me out
I voted Labour in 1997 and 2015, and Libdem in 2001 and 2005! Only ever voted Tory in 2010 and 2017...
No that is not true. You are falling for JRM , who has at most 25% of the MPs. I may be a minority in the membership but you cannot say most back a hard Brexit. Even JRM wants a deal, not a hard Brexit.
Please do not try to belittle my contribution to my party over the last 55 years
Do you feel that it's still your natural home? You seem too unideological for either of the big parties (speaking as someone who is ideological, but I try to listen to those who aren't).
BigG voted for New Labour in 1997 and 2001 and for Remain.
He is not a Tory really more a Tory leaning swing voter
Give up and stop this insultng nonsense. I have as much right in my party as you do and have only twice in my 75 years on this planet voted labour and that was for Blair
I could suggest you join UKIP but I would not be so rude.
Let us just agree we are at the opposite spectrums of our party
Well I have never voted Labour nor UKIP.
You clearly lean Tory but to be a proper Tory you need to vote Tory at every election
Oh well, counts me out
I voted Labour in 1997 and 2015, and Libdem in 2001 and 2005! Only ever voted Tory in 2010 and 2017...
No that is not true. You are falling for JRM , who has at most 25% of the MPs. I may be a minority in the membership but you cannot say most back a hard Brexit. Even JRM wants a deal, not a hard Brexit.
Please do not try to belittle my contribution to my party over the last 55 years
Do you feel that it's still your natural home? You seem too unideological for either of the big parties (speaking as someone who is ideological, but I try to listen to those who aren't).
BigG voted for New Labour in 1997 and 2001 and for Remain.
He is not a Tory really more a Tory leaning swing voter
Give up and stop this insultng nonsense. I have as much right in my party as you do and have only twice in my 75 years on this planet voted labour and that was for Blair
I could suggest you join UKIP but I would not be so rude.
Let us just agree we are at the opposite spectrums of our party
Well I have never voted Labour nor UKIP.
You clearly lean Tory but to be a proper Tory you need to vote Tory at every election
Utter and complete nonsense. I was Lord Wyn Roberts personal driver in election campaigns in the 1970s, have spent hours getting out the vote, was also David Jones driver in the 2015 election and just think you have gone over the line.
HYUFD: BigG voted for New Labour in 1997 and 2001 and for Remain.
He is not a Tory really more a Tory leaning swing voter dixiedean: As a Labour man, may I salute and encourage your efforts to alienate all "Tory leaning swing voters."
No that is not true. You are falling for JRM , who has at most 25% of the MPs. I may be a minority in the membership but you cannot say most back a hard Brexit. Even JRM wants a deal, not a hard Brexit.
Please do not try to belittle my contribution to my party over the last 55 years
Do you feel that it's still your natural home? You seem too unideological for either of the big parties (speaking as someone who is ideological, but I try to listen to those who aren't).
I have always been a conservative as was my Father working in the cotton industry in Lancashire and the ethos of hard work, family, honesty, and being fair to those you employ are my values together with low tax and non intrusive government.
I am sorry about the hard Brexit right causing chaos but I would, like a lot of labour supporters, find it hard to leave and will fight on to hopefully see a sensible pro business and socially aware conservative party again
Great post. Can someone tell me what has happened to the pro-business, pro-growth, pro-jobs Tories? I never voted for them, but they offered an important counterbalance to the trade union left.
Portillo calls deal 'a dreadful betrayal' and says he would have quit Cabinet as a result. Parliament will pass the deal but the Tories then must get rid of May and a new leader in not stained by the deal before the next general election
HYUFD: 'BigG voted for New Labour in 1997 and 2001 and for Remain.
He is not a Tory really more a Tory leaning swing voter
dixiedean: As a Labour man, may I salute and encourage your efforts to alienate all "Tory leaning swing voters."'
It was not about 'alienating' voters but a statement of fact.
I would equally say a usually Labour voter who voted Tory in 2010 or 2015 is not a proper Labour voter but a Labour leaning swing voter as a usually Tory voter who voted Labour in 1997 or 2001 is a Tory leaning swing voter rather than a proper Tory
No that is not true. You are falling for JRM , who has at most 25% of the MPs. I may be a minority in the membership but you cannot say most back a hard Brexit. Even JRM wants a deal, not a hard Brexit.
Please do not try to belittle my contribution to my party over the last 55 years
Do you feel that it's still your natural home? You seem too unideological for either of the big parties (speaking as someone who is ideological, but I try to listen to those who aren't).
I have always been a conservative as was my Father working in the cotton industry in Lancashire and the ethos of hard work, family, honesty, and being fair to those you employ are my values together with low tax and non intrusive government.
I am sorry about the hard Brexit right causing chaos but I would, like a lot of labour supporters, find it hard to leave and will fight on to hopefully see a sensible pro business and socially aware conservative party again
Great post. Can someone tell me what has happened to the pro-business, pro-growth, pro-jobs Tories? I never voted for them, but they offered an important counterbalance to the trade union left.
They seem to be taking over by a cult just like labour.
I ran my own business for years and never thought I would have fellow conservatives accusing me of hysteria, not a real conservative, and my family and tens of thousands of workers just having to accept they may not be able to have foreign holidays anymore
That has happened to me today but I will fight for my party as a totally focused on business and low taxes
No that is not true. You are falling for JRM , who has at most 25% of the MPs. I may be a minority in the membership but you cannot say most back a hard Brexit. Even JRM wants a deal, not a hard Brexit.
Please do not try to belittle my contribution to my party over the last 55 years
Do you feel that it's still your natural home? You seem too unideological for either of the big parties (speaking as someone who is ideological, but I try to listen to those who aren't).
BigG voted for New Labour in 1997 and 2001 and for Remain.
He is not a Tory really more a Tory leaning swing voter
Give up and stop this insultng nonsense. I have as much right in my party as you do and have only twice in my 75 years on this planet voted labour and that was for Blair
I could suggest you join UKIP but I would not be so rude.
Let us just agree we are at the opposite spectrums of our party
Well I have never voted Labour nor UKIP.
You clearly lean Tory but to be a proper Tory you need to vote Tory at every election
Oh well, counts me out
I voted Labour in 1997 and 2015, and Libdem in 2001 and 2005! Only ever voted Tory in 2010 and 2017...
You are clearly a classic swing voter Sunil and given your Leave vote too we can often say 'as Sunil goes so goes the nation'
No that is not true. You are falling for JRM , who has at most 25% of the MPs. I may be a minority in the membership but you cannot say most back a hard Brexit. Even JRM wants a deal, not a hard Brexit.
Please do not try to belittle my contribution to my party over the last 55 years
Do you feel that it's still your natural home? You seem too unideological for either of the big parties (speaking as someone who is ideological, but I try to listen to those who aren't).
BigG voted for New Labour in 1997 and 2001 and for Remain.
He is not a Tory really more a Tory leaning swing voter
Give up and stop this insultng nonsense. I have as much right in my party as you do and have only twice in my 75 years on this planet voted labour and that was for Blair
I could suggest you join UKIP but I would not be so rude.
Let us just agree we are at the opposite spectrums of our party
Well I have never voted Labour nor UKIP.
You clearly lean Tory but to be a proper Tory you need to vote Tory at every election
Utter and complete nonsense. I was Lord Wyn Roberts personal driver in election campaigns in the 1970s, have spent hours getting out the vote, was also David Jones driver in the 2015 election and just think you have gone over the line.
Your intolerance is typical of UKIP
Good night
That still makes you Tory leaning not Tory and I don't knock your hard work for the party most of the time
No that is not true. You are falling for JRM , who has at most 25% of the MPs. I may be a minority in the membership but you cannot say most back a hard Brexit. Even JRM wants a deal, not a hard Brexit.
Please do not try to belittle my contribution to my party over the last 55 years
Do you feel that it's still your natural home? You seem too unideological for either of the big parties (speaking as someone who is ideological, but I try to listen to those who aren't).
BigG voted for New Labour in 1997 and 2001 and for Remain.
He is not a Tory really more a Tory leaning swing voter
Give up and stop this insultng nonsense. I have as much right in my party as you do and have only twice in my 75 years on this planet voted labour and that was for Blair
I could suggest you join UKIP but I would not be so rude.
Let us just agree we are at the opposite spectrums of our party
Well I have never voted Labour nor UKIP.
You clearly lean Tory but to be a proper Tory you need to vote Tory at every election
Utter and complete nonsense. I was Lord Wyn Roberts personal driver in election campaigns in the 1970s, have spent hours getting out the vote, was also David Jones driver in the 2015 election and just think you have gone over the line.
Your intolerance is typical of UKIP
Good night
That still makes you Tory leaning not Tory and I don't knock your hard work for the party most of the time
I nearly told you to do one but remembered I am too polite
You have become boring, judgemental of others, and simply absurd most of the time
BigG voted for New Labour in 1997 and 2001 and for Remain.
He is not a Tory really more a Tory leaning swing voter
As a Labour man, may I salute and encourage your efforts to alienate all "Tory leaning swing voters."
I give up on him to be honest.
If he carries on with others the same way the party will fall below the Lib Dems
Oh well. I see upthread I am not a real Labour man after all, as I have voted LibDem, Green and several Independents of various flavours, one of whom was a Conservative in all but name. Apparently, voting blindly for the Party in defiance of all policy, ideology and competence considerations is the only mark of true authenticity.
BigG voted for New Labour in 1997 and 2001 and for Remain.
He is not a Tory really more a Tory leaning swing voter
As a Labour man, may I salute and encourage your efforts to alienate all "Tory leaning swing voters."
I give up on him to be honest.
If he carries on with others the same way the party will fall below the Lib Dems
Oh well. I see upthread I am not a real Labour man after all, as I have voted LibDem, Green and several Independents of various flavours, one of whom was a Conservative in all but name. Apparently, voting blindly for the Party in defiance of all policy, ideology and competence considerations is the only mark of true authenticity.
He has become unhinged which seems to be quite common with Brexit
Portillo calls deal 'a dreadful betrayal' and says he would have quit Cabinet as a result. Parliament will pass the deal but the Tories then must get rid of May and a new leader in not stained by the deal before the next general election
No that is not true. You are falling for JRM , who has at most 25% of the MPs. I may be a minority in the membership but you cannot say most back a hard Brexit. Even JRM wants a deal, not a hard Brexit.
Please do not try to belittle my contribution to my party over the last 55 years
Do you feel that it's still your natural home? You seem too unideological for either of the big parties (speaking as someone who is ideological, but I try to listen to those who aren't).
BigG voted for New Labour in 1997 and 2001 and for Remain.
He is not a Tory really more a Tory leaning swing voter
Give up and stop this insultng nonsense. I have as much right in my party as you do and have only twice in my 75 years on this planet voted labour and that was for Blair
I could suggest you join UKIP but I would not be so rude.
Let us just agree we are at the opposite spectrums of our party
Well I have never voted Labour nor UKIP.
You clearly lean Tory but to be a proper Tory you need to vote Tory at every election
Utter and complete nonsense. I was Lord Wyn Roberts personal driver in election campaigns in the 1970s, have spent hours getting out the vote, was also David Jones driver in the 2015 election and just think you have gone over the line.
Your intolerance is typical of UKIP
Good night
That still makes you Tory leaning not Tory and I don't knock your hard work for the party most of the time
I nearly told you to do one but remembered I am too polite
You have become boring, judgemental of others, and simply absurd most of the time
I don't see how a statement of the obvious ie if you sometimes vote Labour rather than Tory you are a Tory leaning swing voter somehow makes me 'judgemental of others'. I never criticised you personally in fact I praised your work for the party when you have done it but by definition a party's base is made up by those who stick with it through good times and bad.
For example Tory 1997 voters not just Tory 2015 voters and Labour 2010 voters not just Labour 2001 voters.
I will leave it there as I have work in the morning and I don't want to keep this discussion going if it gets too personal even if unintentional
No that is not true. You are falling for JRM , who has at most 25% of the MPs. I may be a minority in the membership but you cannot say most back a hard Brexit. Even JRM wants a deal, not a hard Brexit.
Please do not try to belittle my contribution to my party over the last 55 years
Do you feel that it's still your natural home? You seem too unideological for either of the big parties (speaking as someone who is ideological, but I try to listen to those who aren't).
BigG voted for New Labour in 1997 and 2001 and for Remain.
He is not a Tory really more a Tory leaning swing voter
Give up and stop this insultng nonsense. I have as much right in my party as you do and have only twice in my 75 years on this planet voted labour and that was for Blair
I could suggest you join UKIP but I would not be so rude.
Let us just agree we are at the opposite spectrums of our party
Well I have never voted Labour nor UKIP.
You clearly lean Tory but to be a proper Tory you need to vote Tory at every election
Utter and complete nonsense. I was Lord Wyn Roberts personal driver in election campaigns in the 1970s, have spent hours getting out the vote, was also David Jones driver in the 2015 election and just think you have gone over the line.
Your intolerance is typical of UKIP
Good night
That still makes you Tory leaning not Tory and I don't knock your hard work for the party most of the time
I nearly told you to do one but remembered I am too polite
You have become boring, judgemental of others, and simply absurd most of the time
I don't see how a statement of the obvious ie if you sometimes vote Labour rather than Tory you are a Tory leaning swing voter somehow makes me 'judgemental of others'. I never criticised you personally in fact I praised your work for the party when you have done it but by definition a party's base is made up by those who stick with it through good times and bad.
For example Tory 1997 voters not just Tory 2015 voters and Labour 2010 voters not just Labour 2001 voters.
I will leave it there as I have work in the morning and I don't want to keep this discussion going if it gets too personal even if unintentional
My own view is that a party which defines itself solely in terms of those who always vote for them will either remain or become a small party, not much bigger than those who always vote for them, until one day, even they don't.
On topic, leavers tend to be Tories, so not surprising Corbyn polls badly there. Looking at how he does with Lab leave vs Lab remain might be interesting.
27% unfavourable amongst Labour voters suggests there is a decent constituency of the unhappy.
Finally, slightly surprised May does a fair bit better than JC with Lib Dem voters.
No that is not true. You are falling for JRM , who has at most 25% of the MPs. I may be a minority in the membership but you cannot say most back a hard Brexit. Even JRM wants a deal, not a hard Brexit.
Please do not try to belittle my contribution to my party over the last 55 years
Do you feel that it's still your natural home? You seem too unideological for either of the big parties (speaking as someone who is ideological, but I try to listen to those who aren't).
BigG voted for New Labour in 1997 and 2001 and for Remain.
He is not a Tory really more a Tory leaning swing voter
Give up and stop this insultng nonsense. I have as much right in my party as you do and have only twice in my 75 years on this planet voted labour and that was for Blair
I could suggest you join UKIP but I would not be so rude.
Let us just agree we are at the opposite spectrums of our party
Well I have never voted Labour nor UKIP.
You clearly lean Tory but to be a proper Tory you need to vote Tory at every election
Utter and complete nonsense. I was Lord Wyn Roberts personal driver of UKIP
Good night
That still makes you Tory leaning not Tory and I don't knock your hard work for the party most of the time
I nearly told you to do one but remembered I am too polite
You have become boring, judgemental of others, and simply absurd most of the time
I don't see how a statement of the obvious ie ugh good times and bad.
For example Tory 1997 voters not just Tory 2015 voters and Labour 2010 voters not just Labour 2001 voters.
I will leave it there as I have work in the morning and I don't want to keep this discussion going if it gets too personal even if unintentional
My own view is that a party which defines itself solely in terms of those who always vote for them will either remain or become a small party, not much bigger than those who always vote for them, until one day, even they don't.
59% of voters have always voted Tory or Labour since 1997.
The only way either are replaced is by a new party to their left or right emerging, a new centrist party could take their moderates but would not replace them
hello PB, first time I have commented since the days of "Tim", if anyone remembers him! I had a different moniker then, but enjoyed being the scourge of headbangers on the right and left. HYUFD and his deranged rantings at anyone without his "pure" world view have brought me back out of retirement!
Comments
Brexit is Midas in reverse: it turns everything to shit - our economy, political stability and good governance, our global influence and our standing in the world.
As I have also said it is in the EU's court, if they offer us a FTA fine, if not no deal it is
Through advanced meditation and some modest capital reallocation I’ve learned to, “Stop Worrying and Love Brexit”. After all, it’s a ringside seat at the most bizarre act of self immolation in the Western Europe since the war.
Historians will ponder this insanity forever...
For most people, most of the time, employment, food on the table and a stable economy matter more than sovereignty. If you go hungry, sovereignty does not keep you warm or fed.
I was nosey enough to wonder how you were all coping with the Chequers situation. Not much change seemingly
It was not just Tories who voted to regain sovereignty and control of their borders
They gave him a Trump England shirt oh my word
17 million were hoaxed.
He is not a Tory really more a Tory leaning swing voter
Pragmatism does not pollute your posts either Mr HYUFD. You come across to me as something of an ideologue.
Sorry ...
May's way or remain
The Leave prospectus Brexit has not yet been tried, just a May brokered fudge
HYUFD swivels about like a contortionist doing the jitterbug.
As Tony Benn said he respected Thatcher even as he disagreed with her on everything as she was at least 'a signpost not a weathervane.'
Pragmatism is needed but without ideology we are all weathervane!
We have always had control of our borders.
I understand you care about the party you put so much effort into. I, never having been a party member of any party, care less about them and more about keeping things stable and safe and prosperous and I will happily sacrifice any political group that seems to be acting against those objectives.
I have to ask, in all serious, is the Tory party of today the same beast as the Tory party over the last 50 years? The answer is "no". This lot are a shambolic shower more reminiscent of Labour in its darkest days.
I am sorry about the hard Brexit right causing chaos but I would, like a lot of labour supporters, find it hard to leave and will fight on to hopefully see a sensible pro business and socially aware conservative party again
1. Remain. We can't do that. We would have to admit the whole thing has been a ghastly error, and beg for forgiveness. Wouldn't comply with the vote either. The EU wouldn't have to agree either.
2. Crash Brexit. We have done zero preparation for that one. And there isn't much time. The effects would be pronounced.
3. May's proposal.
Like it or not, 3 is the only sane option. The others are fantasies.
Guess who's back, back again
Bevy's back, tell a friend
Guess who's back, guess who's back?
Guess who's back, guess who's back?
Guess who's back, guess who's back?
Guess who's back?
A-tiskit a-taskit,
I go tit for tat with anybody who's talking this s*** and that s***
Jeremy Corbyn, you can get your ass kicked
Worse than them little Lib Demmic b*******
And Javid, you can get stomped by David
You forty-eight year old bald headed f**, blow me
You don't know me, you're too old, let it go its over,
Nobody listens to Rees-Mogg, no
Now lets go, just give me the signal
I'll be there with a whole list full of new insults
I've been dope, suspenseful with a pencil
Ever since Johnson turned hisself into a mental
But sometimes this s** just seems
Everybody only wants to discuss me
So this must mean I'm disgusting
But it's just me I'm just Tory
Though I'm not the first king of controversy
I am the worst thing since Maggie T
To do Con policy so selfishly
And use it to get myself wealthy
"Hey" there's a concept that works
Twenty million other UKIP nutters emerge
But no matter how many fish in the sea
It will be so empty without me
Now this looks like a job for me
So everybody just follow me
'Cause we need a little controversy
'Cause it feels so empty without me
I said, this looks like a job for me
So everybody just follow me
'Cause we need a little controversy
'Cause it feels so empty without me...
PB is a strange place
I could suggest you join UKIP but I would not be so rude.
Let us just agree we are at the opposite spectrums of our party
The reason I think number 1 is still a possibility is because 3 is a much worse position and does not achieve the aim of Brexit anyway. If we are not really going to Brexit then why not stay in?
The EU would agree if we gave up the rebate.
You clearly lean Tory but to be a proper Tory you need to vote Tory at every election
I voted Labour in 1997 and 2015, and Libdem in 2001 and 2005!
Only ever voted Tory in 2010 and 2017...
Your intolerance is typical of UKIP
Good night
BigG voted for New Labour in 1997 and 2001 and for Remain.
He is not a Tory really more a Tory leaning swing voter
dixiedean:
As a Labour man, may I salute and encourage your efforts to alienate all "Tory leaning swing voters."
I give up on him to be honest.
If he carries on with others the same way the party will fall below the Lib Dems
As a Labour man, may I salute and encourage your efforts to alienate all "Tory leaning swing voters."'
It was not about 'alienating' voters but a statement of fact.
I would equally say a usually Labour voter who voted Tory in 2010 or 2015 is not a proper Labour voter but a Labour leaning swing voter as a usually Tory voter who voted Labour in 1997 or 2001 is a Tory leaning swing voter rather than a proper Tory
I ran my own business for years and never thought I would have fellow conservatives accusing me of hysteria, not a real conservative, and my family and tens of thousands of workers just having to accept they may not be able to have foreign holidays anymore
That has happened to me today but I will fight for my party as a totally focused on business and low taxes
If he carries on with others the same way the party will fall below the Lib Dems'
The majority of Tories are Brexiteers, if it ignores all of them the party will fall below UKIP.
No they are not
They are, almost 70% of 2017 Tory voters voted Leave
You have become boring, judgemental of others, and simply absurd most of the time
If he carries on with others the same way the party will fall below the Lib Dems
Oh well. I see upthread I am not a real Labour man after all, as I have voted LibDem, Green and several Independents of various flavours, one of whom was a Conservative in all but name.
Apparently, voting blindly for the Party in defiance of all policy, ideology and competence considerations is the only mark of true authenticity.
Apparently, voting blindly for the Party in defiance of all policy, ideology and competence considerations is the only mark of true authenticity.
He has become unhinged which seems to be quite common with Brexit
For example Tory 1997 voters not just Tory 2015 voters and Labour 2010 voters not just Labour 2001 voters.
I will leave it there as I have work in the morning and I don't want to keep this discussion going if it gets too personal even if unintentional
27% unfavourable amongst Labour voters suggests there is a decent constituency of the unhappy.
Finally, slightly surprised May does a fair bit better than JC with Lib Dem voters.
The only way either are replaced is by a new party to their left or right emerging, a new centrist party could take their moderates but would not replace them