politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Peace talks for our time, but where?
Comments
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Horribly true, but they do still have a counter at which one may exchange money for a little white slip.another_richard said:
FOBT shops might be a better name for some bookies.viewcode said:
Would you like to compare your antipathy to bookies's shops to the underlying purpose of this site?another_richard said:Those retail units which go - bookies ... are of no real use and certainly no ornament.
Incidentally they sometimes also print off a list of past odds: they did that for last year's French Presidential which I was most pleased at, although whether that's a thing or just one-off is unknown.0 -
The migration of low skilled workers from Eastern Europe to Western Europe would boost GDP per head in Eastern Europe but lower it in the West.Gardenwalker said:
Yes, and Eastern Europe has done well on both counts - some better than others for sure.another_richard said:
There a difference between economic growth and economic growth per head.Foxy said:
Sounds very Corbynite, but yes people do not want slum housing, exploitative employers in the gig and casual economy and tax dodging multinational employers. None of those things are to do with the EU though it is always good to blame foreigners.another_richard said:
Cable is merely exposing his own bigotry about Leave voters.Gardenwalker said:
The “EU is terrible for Estonia” argument is one of the more bizarre Leaver myths. I have to assume it’s a kind of displaced antipathy to Eastern Europeans themselves, in which case perhaps Cable has a point.williamglenn said:
Since accession the peripheral states have all closed the gap on Germany, with the exception of Greece whose specific issues are well documented. The trend in population decline in some states was not impacted by joining the single market.stodge said:I actually voted LEAVE because a) the EU had become a fundamentally illiberal organisation seemingly incapable and unwilling to be reformed, b) the pernicious Single Market had abetted the depopulation and pauperisation of the peripheries and c) the consequences of the Single Market have been to create a new generation of slums in London as well as a flourishing black economy and intolerable pressure on public services.
Why do you keep repeating the same claims long after they have been debunked?
I don't know anybody who wants to return to the 1950s but I know plenty of people who want the present which we were promised and not the present of suburban shanty towns, slavery to criminal gangs and sweatshops for the benefit of tax dodging multinationals.
Net emigation is not incompatible with strong economic growth, as Eastern Europe is demonstrating, after all the UK had significant net migration throughout the post war period, and even as late as the eighties.
Increasing the former while reducing the latter does not make a country successful.
But the migration of high skilled Eastern Europeans to do low skilled work in the West would have negative effects across Europe even if works to the benefit of the individual concerned.0 -
JosiasJessop said:
Algorithm win:
Top of my Facebook feed is a link to a New Statesman article headed: "Why you should give money directly and unconditionally to homeless people"
Below which is a sponsored ad for Strongbow ...
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And other benefits.Gardenwalker said:
If true, that’s a disaster of epic proportions.Tykejohnno said:MIGRANTS BENEFITS BILL EU migrants in Britain claimed more than £4bn a year in benefits
Migrants from Eastern Europe received more in welfare than the average UK citizen — and paid less income tax, figures show
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5776790/eu-migrants-in-britain-claimed-more-than-4bn-of-handouts-in-a-year/
The article suggests it’s all about the tax credits.
It is a disaster if you are living in one of those area's pal,where the unskilled poor benefit immigration is moving.0 -
Thank you for the kind words - but you do know I voted Remain? I haven't changed my views on that and I'm pretty fed up at what's happening. Equally the fact that the EU are behaving exactly as I expected them to doesn't fill me with sudden enthusiasm for the project. However, we are leaving and I have accepted that.Gardenwalker said:@ydoethur, you’re one of my favourite posters and it pissed me off when you went Leave.
The point I am trying to make is not that countries are not depopulating. All sorts of places are depopulating. I imagine much of rural Europe continues to do so. The article you cited talks about people moving to Riga for example.
What I am trying to say is, this is a silly argument for Leavers to make. On the simple grounds that most enthusiastic supporters of FOM seem to be those very Eastern European states that are losing their talent to us.
I'll make this clear. It's not about the extent to which the EU is responsible for depopulation in Eastern Europe. I think it's probably actually quite a minor factor in it on the whole, just as railways in the nineteenth century were a catalyst for, not the cause of rural decline. When I was in Berlin I met far more Russians than Poles, and Russia isn't in the EU, so to describe it as the only factor would certainly be disingenuous.
The problem is you said that nobody was complaining about falling populations in Eastern Europe, and claimed that proved your case. As the first part isn't true, the second is put into doubt by default. Which is unfortunate because a properly constructed case can be made to refute it. Why do people leave rural Latvia? Because it's an impoverished shithole. Nobody needs to overthink it beyond that.
Why do they come to Western Europe? For jobs. Again, the EU makes that easier but think of all those Spanish waiters in the Seventies. They would have found a way to come somehow as millions do from outside the EU today.
A more pertinent question in this debate really is should they have automatic access to all public services on the same basis as the locals? Is it, for example, appropriate that there are people running foster services for Eastern European children so they can come here cheaply to get free education on the state, despite their parents paying no taxes here? Is it fair that they get in effect free university education while home students take out thousands per year in loans? Admittedly that is because O'Connor and the SLC would be out of their depth running a roadside cafe, but it's still an issue.
But you kind of shifted it onto dangerous ground for yourself, which I think was a tactical error.0 -
I realise I should have printed off my Macron @ 20/1 wins to show what a great betting sage I am.viewcode said:
Horribly true, but they do still have a counter at which one may exchange money for a little white slip.another_richard said:
FOBT shops might be a better name for some bookies.viewcode said:
Would you like to compare your antipathy to bookies's shops to the underlying purpose of this site?another_richard said:Those retail units which go - bookies ... are of no real use and certainly no ornament.
Incidentally they sometimes also print off a list of past odds: they did that for last year's French Presidential which I was most pleased at, although whether that's a thing or just one-off is unknown.
What's that you say about it being a Robert Smithson tip ? No, never heard of him.0 -
Wasn't there a bloke called Smithson who once tipped some obscure senator at 50/1 to be POTUS?another_richard said:
I realise I should have printed off my Macron @ 20/1 wins to show what a great betting sage I am.viewcode said:
Horribly true, but they do still have a counter at which one may exchange money for a little white slip.another_richard said:
FOBT shops might be a better name for some bookies.viewcode said:
Would you like to compare your antipathy to bookies's shops to the underlying purpose of this site?another_richard said:Those retail units which go - bookies ... are of no real use and certainly no ornament.
Incidentally they sometimes also print off a list of past odds: they did that for last year's French Presidential which I was most pleased at, although whether that's a thing or just one-off is unknown.
What's that you say about it being a Robert Smithson tip ? No, never heard of him.
It was never mentioned again, of course, but I've got a feeling that senator went on to be quite senior at some point. If only I could remember who it was...0 -
Can I add I had not seen the exchange re benefits being repatriated when I made my comment above about education.0
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Angela Merkel's new interior minister vows to crack down on criminal migrants and kick rejected asylum seekers out of Germany quicker
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5487673/Merkels-new-interior-minister-vows-speed-migrant-deportations.html
Good luck with that...I somehow doubt they are going to get very far unless they ignore the do-gooders and introduce draconian measures where they are willing to just dump people back in their home country even if their home country isn't willing to accept them.
Given Merkel's past record I doubt that will be happening.0 -
I have it from good authority from someone in the industry that every bookie retail chain would cease to exist without FOBTs. The ones well equipped technologically/numerically skilled would survive online.viewcode said:
Horribly true, but they do still have a counter at which one may exchange money for a little white slip.another_richard said:
FOBT shops might be a better name for some bookies.viewcode said:
Would you like to compare your antipathy to bookies's shops to the underlying purpose of this site?another_richard said:Those retail units which go - bookies ... are of no real use and certainly no ornament.
Incidentally they sometimes also print off a list of past odds: they did that for last year's French Presidential which I was most pleased at, although whether that's a thing or just one-off is unknown.0 -
John McDonnell, Labour's shadow chancellor, appeared to be channeling his inner Justin Trudeau yesterday when he referred to British fishermen as "fisherpeople" during a television interview.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/11/john-mcdonnell-channels-justin-trudeau-referring-fisherpeople/0 -
Jesus wept....no wonder they believe all of Corbyns bullshit.
Millennials are turning to astrology
https://www.theguardian.com/global/2018/mar/11/star-gazing-why-millennials-are-turning-to-astrology0 -
There's plenty of scope for horror.FrancisUrquhart said:Jesus wept....no wonder they believe all of Corbyns bullshit.
Millennials are turning to astrology
https://www.theguardian.com/global/2018/mar/11/star-gazing-why-millennials-are-turning-to-astrology
Stop handing me my bloody coat!0 -
All kicking off in the shadow cabinet as Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary Debbie Abrahams is forced to stand aside
https://twitter.com/GraemeDemianyk/status/972927571154350087
https://twitter.com/GraemeDemianyk/status/9729295178566574080 -
Worst dom ever.
Obviously not suitable for most PBers because I know you're all shy and innocent.
https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedNews/status/9729300873717227520 -
Migrants from Eastern Europe received more in welfare than the average UK citizen — and paid less income tax, figures showTykejohnno said:
And other benefits.Gardenwalker said:
If true, that’s a disaster of epic proportions.Tykejohnno said:MIGRANTS BENEFITS BILL EU migrants in Britain claimed more than £4bn a year in benefits
Migrants from Eastern Europe received more in welfare than the average UK citizen — and paid less income tax, figures show
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5776790/eu-migrants-in-britain-claimed-more-than-4bn-of-handouts-in-a-year/
The article suggests it’s all about the tax credits.
It is a disaster if you are living in one of those area's pal,where the unskilled poor benefit immigration is moving.
Might it be that migrants from Eastern Europe are generally in low paid jobs and that people in low paid jobs receive more in welfare and pay less in tax than the average person?
Worth noting, as the Sun article does that: "Nearly half the personal taxes paid by migrants from countries such as Romania, Bulgaria and Poland went straight back in tax credits and child benefit." I.e. they were still net contributors to HM Government revenues.0 -
I wonder who in the leader's office is a nasty piece of work....TheScreamingEagles said:All kicking off in the shadow cabinet as Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary Debbie Abrahams is forced to stand aside
twitter.com/GraemeDemianyk/status/972927571154350087
twitter.com/GraemeDemianyk/status/972929517856657408
In totally unrelated comments, I seemed to recall that when Seamus left the Guardian his colleagues weren't sad to see him go.0 -
That has got to be a serious niche market. I don't think even SeanT (pre-marriage) would have been interested in those kind of services....TheScreamingEagles said:Worst dom ever.
Obviously not suitable for most PBers because I know you're all shy and innocent.
twitter.com/BuzzFeedNews/status/9729300873717227520 -
You gotta get lucky as well as be smart...
Elon Musk says his companies SpaceX and Tesla are both still alive only "by the skin of their teeth".
The entrepreneur told an audience at the South by South West (SXSW) conference that both companies almost went bankrupt in 2008.
"I gave both SpaceX and Tesla a probability of less than 10% likely to succeed," he said during a Q&A session.
"At the beginning in 2002, I wouldn't even let my own friends invest as I didn't want to lose their money."
Mr Musk said he made $180m (£130m) when PayPal was acquired by eBay in 2002, and he initially put $90m into SpaceX and Tesla, but the costs kept mounting.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-43365710
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If I hired her I'd want her to recite the results of the AV referendum by counting area.FrancisUrquhart said:
That has got to be a serious niche market. I don't think even SeanT (pre-marriage) would have been interested in those kind of services....TheScreamingEagles said:Worst dom ever.
Obviously not suitable for most PBers because I know you're all shy and innocent.
twitter.com/BuzzFeedNews/status/972930087371722752
That's proper humiliation.0 -
There's been a massive increase in retail space over, say, the last twenty years, which it would seem likely the internet is making more than a little excessive.another_richard said:
A lot of redundant retail space would be better used for residential purposes, especially that near town centres and railway stations.rcs1000 said:
I have a theory (bear with me).FrancisUrquhart said:One in three of the UK's top 100 restaurant groups are not making a profit, according to new research into the struggling casual dining sector.
Just a thought, perhaps there are too many of them....
The continued growth of Internet shopping has resulted in many traditional retail outlets leaving the High Street. This has freed up a lot of space, which has been filled by private equity backed firms all with the unique idea of a "A Class Burger Joint".
Fortunately, capitalism is a wonderful thing, and there will be a culling.
Those retail units which go - bookies, coffee shop, tat shop, charity shop, pound shop, boarded up shop, takeaway - are of no real use and certainly no ornament.
Personally I'd rather see the out-of-town retail parks levelled to make way for housing, but wherever it does happen councils should be proactive about it rather than attempt to fruitlessly keep excess retail capacity in use.0 -
On a totally different issue I've just noticed that SCON won a seat in this ward after a 11.43% first round vote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_City_Council_election,_2017#Ward_9:_Calton
Was that the lowest first round vote of anyone elected in Scotland last year ?0 -
Does being a net contributor to HM government revenues also not include the cost of any public services someone consumes - such as the use of the NHS by them or their families or sending their kids to school or the pressure on infrastructure and the transport system etc etc . What about Housing benefit which many of those on low incomes will be entitled to?Benpointer said:
Migrants from Eastern Europe received more in welfare than the average UK citizen — and paid less income tax, figures showTykejohnno said:
And other benefits.Gardenwalker said:
If true, that’s a disaster of epic proportions.Tykejohnno said:MIGRANTS BENEFITS BILL EU migrants in Britain claimed more than £4bn a year in benefits
Migrants from Eastern Europe received more in welfare than the average UK citizen — and paid less income tax, figures show
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5776790/eu-migrants-in-britain-claimed-more-than-4bn-of-handouts-in-a-year/
The article suggests it’s all about the tax credits.
It is a disaster if you are living in one of those area's pal,where the unskilled poor benefit immigration is moving.
Might it be that migrants from Eastern Europe are generally in low paid jobs and that people in low paid jobs receive more in welfare and pay less in tax than the average person?
Worth noting, as the Sun article does that: "Nearly half the personal taxes paid by migrants from countries such as Romania, Bulgaria and Poland went straight back in tax credits and child benefit." I.e. they were still net contributors to HM Government revenues.
Simply just counting tax, tax credits and child benefit doesn't really count as being the calculation of a net contributor.
I suppose the obvious question is why we as a default position think allowing migrants who end up immediately on tax credits is necessarily an ideal scenario. It's not what Canada or Australia or NZ do - they select the best from across the world not the unemployed from one part of it.0 -
Did anywhere vote 'yes'?TheScreamingEagles said:
If I hired her I'd want her to recite the results of the AV referendum by counting area.FrancisUrquhart said:
That has got to be a serious niche market. I don't think even SeanT (pre-marriage) would have been interested in those kind of services....TheScreamingEagles said:Worst dom ever.
Obviously not suitable for most PBers because I know you're all shy and innocent.
twitter.com/BuzzFeedNews/status/972930087371722752
That's proper humiliation.0 -
Tesla only survived due to R&D funding in Obama's stimulus. Now all of humankind will benefit from the developed tech. That shows the importance of government intervention in the market (when done smartly).FrancisUrquhart said:You gotta get lucky as well as be smart...
Elon Musk says his companies SpaceX and Tesla are both still alive only "by the skin of their teeth".
The entrepreneur told an audience at the South by South West (SXSW) conference that both companies almost went bankrupt in 2008.
"I gave both SpaceX and Tesla a probability of less than 10% likely to succeed," he said during a Q&A session.
"At the beginning in 2002, I wouldn't even let my own friends invest as I didn't want to lose their money."
Mr Musk said he made $180m (£130m) when PayPal was acquired by eBay in 2002, and he initially put $90m into SpaceX and Tesla, but the costs kept mounting.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-433657100 -
presumably the purely online bookies could be considered slightly more ethical?Elliot said:
I have it from good authority from someone in the industry that every bookie retail chain would cease to exist without FOBTs. The ones well equipped technologically/numerically skilled would survive online.viewcode said:
Horribly true, but they do still have a counter at which one may exchange money for a little white slip.another_richard said:
FOBT shops might be a better name for some bookies.viewcode said:
Would you like to compare your antipathy to bookies's shops to the underlying purpose of this site?another_richard said:Those retail units which go - bookies ... are of no real use and certainly no ornament.
Incidentally they sometimes also print off a list of past odds: they did that for last year's French Presidential which I was most pleased at, although whether that's a thing or just one-off is unknown.0 -
Why? People prefer their housing in town and their shopping out of town.OblitusSumMe said:
There's been a massive increase in retail space over, say, the last twenty years, which it would seem likely the internet is making more than a little excessive.another_richard said:
A lot of redundant retail space would be better used for residential purposes, especially that near town centres and railway stations.rcs1000 said:
I have a theory (bear with me).FrancisUrquhart said:One in three of the UK's top 100 restaurant groups are not making a profit, according to new research into the struggling casual dining sector.
Just a thought, perhaps there are too many of them....
The continued growth of Internet shopping has resulted in many traditional retail outlets leaving the High Street. This has freed up a lot of space, which has been filled by private equity backed firms all with the unique idea of a "A Class Burger Joint".
Fortunately, capitalism is a wonderful thing, and there will be a culling.
Those retail units which go - bookies, coffee shop, tat shop, charity shop, pound shop, boarded up shop, takeaway - are of no real use and certainly no ornament.
Personally I'd rather see the out-of-town retail parks levelled to make way for housing, but wherever it does happen councils should be proactive about it rather than attempt to fruitlessly keep excess retail capacity in use.0 -
That's a non-sequitur. It proves they paid more than they claimed under those two headings. There may be other costs (e.g. Healthcare) to consider too.Benpointer said:
Migrants from Eastern Europe received more in welfare than the average UK citizen — and paid less income tax, figures showTykejohnno said:
And other benefits.Gardenwalker said:
If true, that’s a disaster of epic proportions.Tykejohnno said:MIGRANTS BENEFITS BILL EU migrants in Britain claimed more than £4bn a year in benefits
Migrants from Eastern Europe received more in welfare than the average UK citizen — and paid less income tax, figures show
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5776790/eu-migrants-in-britain-claimed-more-than-4bn-of-handouts-in-a-year/
The article suggests it’s all about the tax credits.
It is a disaster if you are living in one of those area's pal,where the unskilled poor benefit immigration is moving.
Might it be that migrants from Eastern Europe are generally in low paid jobs and that people in low paid jobs receive more in welfare and pay less in tax than the average person?
Worth noting, as the Sun article does that: "Nearly half the personal taxes paid by migrants from countries such as Romania, Bulgaria and Poland went straight back in tax credits and child benefit." I.e. they were still net contributors to HM Government revenues.
Edit - and of course it doesn't cover those welfare payments made in this country either.0 -
The poor immigrant does very well out of the arrangement. It is those left behind that suffer from an ever greater dependency ratio.williamglenn said:
“I pity the poor immigrant who is forced to live next door to me instead of staying in his hometown where he belongs.”stodge said:
The problem is the EU, as an entity, has done nothing to help the peripheral states like Romania, Bulgaria or even parts of Spain and Portugal which were ravaged by the global financial crisis.williamglenn said:
Since accession the peripheral states have all closed the gap on Germany, with the exception of Greece whose specific issues are well documented. The trend in population decline in some states was not impacted by joining the single market.stodge said:I actually voted LEAVE because a) the EU had become a fundamentally illiberal organisation seemingly incapable and unwilling to be reformed, b) the pernicious Single Market had abetted the depopulation and pauperisation of the peripheries and c) the consequences of the Single Market have been to create a new generation of slums in London as well as a flourishing black economy and intolerable pressure on public services.
Why do you keep repeating the same claims long after they have been debunked?
A more thoughtful organisation would have channelled billions of euros to assist these regions in getting back on their feet but what happened (not just in Greece but in other areas) was the collapse of local industry and services left many forced to come to other parts of Europe looking for work.
This has fuelled the migration that has caused so many problems here and in other parts of Europe.0 -
The city with the finest university in the world voted Yes2AV, a sign of real intelligence.ydoethur said:
Did anywhere vote 'yes'?TheScreamingEagles said:
If I hired her I'd want her to recite the results of the AV referendum by counting area.FrancisUrquhart said:
That has got to be a serious niche market. I don't think even SeanT (pre-marriage) would have been interested in those kind of services....TheScreamingEagles said:Worst dom ever.
Obviously not suitable for most PBers because I know you're all shy and innocent.
twitter.com/BuzzFeedNews/status/972930087371722752
That's proper humiliation.
Joining Cambridge were, Camden, Hackney, Haringey, Islington, Lambeth, Southwark, Oxford, Edinburgh Central, and Glasgow Kelvin.
So out of 440 counting areas only 10 voted Yes2AV.0 -
Our non-contributory welfare system is an utter farce. Why not make claims for tax credits conditional on 5 years’ residence in the U.K., regardless of nationality?0
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More CANZUK news, if anybody is interested:
"11 Mar 2018 — A province-wide poll of residents in Quebec, Canada has found majority support for reciprocal freedom of movement with Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom.
The poll surveyed 2,533 participants via independent online polling methods, and found that over 63% supported freedom of movement between the CANZUK countries, with only 21% opposing."0 -
Hang on a second, that doesn't add up. You say the city with the finest university in the world voted Yes, but then you fail to mention Aberystwyth as one of the areas.TheScreamingEagles said:
The city with the finest university in the world voted Yes2AV, a sign of real intelligence.ydoethur said:
Did anywhere vote 'yes'?TheScreamingEagles said:
If I hired her I'd want her to recite the results of the AV referendum by counting area.FrancisUrquhart said:
That has got to be a serious niche market. I don't think even SeanT (pre-marriage) would have been interested in those kind of services....TheScreamingEagles said:Worst dom ever.
Obviously not suitable for most PBers because I know you're all shy and innocent.
twitter.com/BuzzFeedNews/status/972930087371722752
That's proper humiliation.
Joining Cambridge were, Camden, Hackney, Haringey, Islington, Lambeth, Southwark, Oxford, Edinburgh Central, and Glasgow Kelvin.
So out of 440 counting areas only 10 voted Yes2AV.0 -
Good point. And why did Massachusetts get to vote?ydoethur said:
Hang on a second, that doesn't add up. You say the city with the finest university in the world voted Yes, but then you fail to mention Aberystwyth as one of the areas.TheScreamingEagles said:
The city with the finest university in the world voted Yes2AV, a sign of real intelligence.ydoethur said:
Did anywhere vote 'yes'?TheScreamingEagles said:
If I hired her I'd want her to recite the results of the AV referendum by counting area.FrancisUrquhart said:
That has got to be a serious niche market. I don't think even SeanT (pre-marriage) would have been interested in those kind of services....TheScreamingEagles said:Worst dom ever.
Obviously not suitable for most PBers because I know you're all shy and innocent.
twitter.com/BuzzFeedNews/status/972930087371722752
That's proper humiliation.
Joining Cambridge were, Camden, Hackney, Haringey, Islington, Lambeth, Southwark, Oxford, Edinburgh Central, and Glasgow Kelvin.
So out of 440 counting areas only 10 voted Yes2AV.0 -
In a past job I worked for a Council, and we served a prohibition order on some very poor quality residential accommodation, from a known difficult landlord.Gardenwalker said:
Stodge, it sounds like you are much closer to the problem than most. To be clear, I agree the relevant councils are ridiculously under-resources to deal with this.stodge said:
I'll raise you East Ham in Newham if you want. I've spoken to housing officers in the Borough and the Mayor himself has admitted 3-bedroom semi-detached properties with 20 or more inhabitants are "commonplace".
The problem is regrettably private landlords who see migrants as a licence to print money. They extend into loft space to create extra accommodation as well as using outbuildings as dwellings (I can see four from my bedroom window).
Newham Council's planning department are hopelessly under-resourced trying to control this and even though anyone wanting to become a landlord has to have a licence from the Council (and that's a useful money-spinner for Newham) there seems no resourcing for enforcement.
There are 24,000 private landlords licenced in Newham at £400 per time.
Over 40% of the population lives in the private rented sector (how accurate that figure is no one knows).
But putting that aside, I just think it’s disingenous to add the complaint that the EU is depopulating Eastern Europe amongst its other evils.
He challenged it at court, as he has the right to do so. He did it all by himself, in broken English, and his case was just that he didn't really know what was going on, but didn't have any plan to rent out any accommodation there.
On the Council's side, we had to a) serve the notice and gather up all the evidence to do so. Attend court, two Council officers, another former Council officer and her manager, along with a barrister that we had to instruct to make our case to the court.
The court was presided over by a judge, in addition to an expert lay witness (a surveyor).
The court hearing lasted all day. The written conclusion of the hearing was that, irrespective of all the evidence we provided that the rooms were being rented out, the landlord said that he didn't want to rent it out any more, so there was no justification for the order, which was quashed.
(Somewhat simplified and some detail missing - but you get the general idea).
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Bloody hell. I hadn't seen this, and it isn't even there but well hidden on the BBC website, it isn't there at all but been on ITV news for 12 hours.SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.0 -
Now that really is strange, but I have looked again and you're right. Are we overthinking this though? Is it because of institutional reverse racism or because they think of Telford as a road engineer not a place?Ishmael_Z said:
Bloody hell. I hadn't seen this, and it isn't even there but well hidden on the BBC website, it isn't there at all but been on ITV news for 12 hours.SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.0 -
The BBC is quite slow to report things. I guess it is a more rigorous editorial process due to being the national broadcaster. But they usually come out a day or two later.SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
See this one about Northumbria grooming a couple weeks back.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-tyne-431535560 -
I had a brainwave this morning - ham and pineapple flavour crisps.williamglenn said:Anybody for pineapple scones?
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Sounds cheesy.SandyRentool said:
I had a brainwave this morning - ham and pineapple flavour crisps.williamglenn said:Anybody for pineapple scones?
And with that final awesome pun I am going to hit the sack. Good night one and all.0 -
You need to consider the visual appeal: yellow, white, red work. Yellow, red, white is a Victoria spongeCookie said:
Jam then cream, purely for engineering reasons. Jam is grippier - hence it clings, to some extent, to the scone while you spread the cream on top of it. If you put the cream on first and attempt to spread the jam on top of it you just get a big gloopy mess, some of which ends up falling off the scone.FrancisUrquhart said:
Always cream then jam for me....MarqueeMark said:
Devon rules....FrancisUrquhart said:National Trust receiving a load of incoming...but for once not for out-peopleKinding Justin Trudeau...
Cornish scone lovers react with fury after ad shows the tasty treat with CREAM on first instead of jam
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5487929/Cornish-people-furious-ad-shows-scone-cream-jam.html0 -
There needs to be a new criminal offence for those who fail to take action in grooming cases.0
-
It should be a criminal offence for those who fail to take action on any reported criminal offence, and against anyone who deliberately underfunds the emergency services in the name of a fake economic incompetent policy of austerity.....Elliot said:There needs to be a new criminal offence for those who fail to take action in grooming cases.
0 -
You really are a class one lunatic aren't you.OchEye said:
It should be a criminal offence for those who fail to take action on any reported criminal offence, and against anyone who deliberately underfunds the emergency services in the name of a fake economic incompetent policy of austerity.....Elliot said:There needs to be a new criminal offence for those who fail to take action in grooming cases.
0 -
What worries me most is how many cses there are. 1500 in Rotherham. 700 in Northumbria. 1000 in Telford. The number of people refusing to act must have been very large.SeanT said:
I agree. We need to see prosecutions not just of the rapists, but of the police and local politicians who Knew but Did Nothing.Elliot said:There needs to be a new criminal offence for those who fail to take action in grooming cases.
FORTY YEARS this has been going on, in Telford. 40 bloody years. My Christ.
I do wonder if there were people acting at a higher level suppressing this. We have heard very little who the customers were. Perhaps VIPs were involved.0 -
Oh gods - I've been trying to reach out to the ham and pineapple deviants, but that's a step too far.SandyRentool said:
I had a brainwave this morning - ham and pineapple flavour crisps.williamglenn said:Anybody for pineapple scones?
0 -
Ann Cryer tried to speak out on this under the Blair government 16 years ago - she was attacked and condemned at the time and accused of being a racist. How many girls might have been saved from years of abuse had she been listened to by Labour colleagues and councillors instead of being attacked and sidelined.SeanT said:
As far as I can see the only British politician who is willing to talk openly about this issue is Sarah Champion, the Labour MP for Rotherham. I think she feels guilty for ignoring it early in her career and now feels morally compelled to do *something*. Kudos to her, even if she took her time.MaxPB said:
Yes, agreed. Make them accessories to the crime.Elliot said:There needs to be a new criminal offence for those who fail to take action in grooming cases.
And her reward for speaking out on grooming? She got sacked by Corbyn.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4780326/Branded-racist-trying-save-girls-vile-abusers.html
0 -
Breaking
Debbie Abrahams angry over her sacking by the leaders office. Refusing to leave her post and threatening to sue.
'My treatment by certain individuals in the Leaders Office over the last 10 months has been aggressive, intimidating, and wholly unprofessional' she said
Looks like a big problem for labour0 -
See my next posting re Debbie AbrahamsSeanT said:
As far as I can see the only British politician who is willing to talk openly about this issue is Sarah Champion, the Labour MP for Rotherham. I think she feels guilty for ignoring it early in her career and now feels morally compelled to do *something*. Kudos to her, even if she took her time.MaxPB said:
Yes, agreed. Make them accessories to the crime.Elliot said:There needs to be a new criminal offence for those who fail to take action in grooming cases.
And her reward for speaking out on grooming? She got sacked by Corbyn.0 -
But it is good to know the BBC has space for the big stories on their front page, if they can't make room for industrial scale child abuse:SeanT said:
As far as I can see the only British politician who is willing to talk openly about this issue is Sarah Champion, the Labour MP for Rotherham. I think she feels guilty for ignoring it early in her career and now feels morally compelled to do *something*. Kudos to her, even if she took her time.MaxPB said:
Yes, agreed. Make them accessories to the crime.Elliot said:There needs to be a new criminal offence for those who fail to take action in grooming cases.
And her reward for speaking out on grooming? She got sacked by Corbyn.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-433634350 -
' The Conservative MP Nicola Blackwood said the committee had heard evidence in private from the Home Office researcher that her 2002 report had been greeted with hostility by South Yorkshire police. She said they had heard evidence that the researcher had been contacted by two officers who threatened to pass her name to the groomers in Rotherham and she had been left in fear of her life. 'SeanT said:
I agree. We need to see prosecutions not just of the rapists, but of the police and local politicians who Knew but Did Nothing.Elliot said:There needs to be a new criminal offence for those who fail to take action in grooming cases.
FORTY YEARS this has been going on, in Telford. 40 bloody years. My Christ.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/sep/09/researcher-rotherham-abuse-feared-for-life-police-visit
The response by the then Home Secretery to that revelation was to do ...0 -
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
0 -
Ann Cryer and Simon Danczuk also spoke out.SeanT said:
As far as I can see the only British politician who is willing to talk openly about this issue is Sarah Champion, the Labour MP for Rotherham. I think she feels guilty for ignoring it early in her career and now feels morally compelled to do *something*. Kudos to her, even if she took her time.MaxPB said:
Yes, agreed. Make them accessories to the crime.Elliot said:There needs to be a new criminal offence for those who fail to take action in grooming cases.
And her reward for speaking out on grooming? She got sacked by Corbyn.
Neither got any thanks from the political world for doing so.0 -
Or...MarqueeMark said:
But it is good to know the BBC has space for the big stories on their front page, if they can't make room for industrial scale child abuse:SeanT said:
As far as I can see the only British politician who is willing to talk openly about this issue is Sarah Champion, the Labour MP for Rotherham. I think she feels guilty for ignoring it early in her career and now feels morally compelled to do *something*. Kudos to her, even if she took her time.MaxPB said:
Yes, agreed. Make them accessories to the crime.Elliot said:There needs to be a new criminal offence for those who fail to take action in grooming cases.
And her reward for speaking out on grooming? She got sacked by Corbyn.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-43363435
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-43363565/climbing-mount-everest-while-doing-keepy-uppies0 -
How about this for a modest proposal? We could rent Devil's Island.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_Island0 -
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.0 -
I doubt it. I think the reality is that this stuff was not previously seen as a crime. It now is. It's a societal change, obviously for the better.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
I suspect that this is the tip of the iceberg, essentially the cases are probably endless. But over time, they become less dramatic, and thus less newsworthy.
0 -
I am sure the BBC and Guardian would have also ignored this story if a white far right racist had done this to a Muslim family....SeanT said:
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.brendan16 said:
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
I mean when the guy from the Times tried to expose previous crimes he wasn't tarred as a racist or anything from sections of the media.0 -
Isn't all life pointless??SeanT said:
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.brendan16 said:
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
Not all life is stupid??0 -
Other people might, but I don't. Also the implied dependency on cars for transport isn't consistent with more city centre housing unlikely to have much in the way of parking space.Elliot said:
Why? People prefer their housing in town and their shopping out of town.OblitusSumMe said:
There's been a massive increase in retail space over, say, the last twenty years, which it would seem likely the internet is making more than a little excessive.another_richard said:
A lot of redundant retail space would be better used for residential purposes, especially that near town centres and railway stations.rcs1000 said:
I have a theory (bear with me).FrancisUrquhart said:One in three of the UK's top 100 restaurant groups are not making a profit, according to new research into the struggling casual dining sector.
Just a thought, perhaps there are too many of them....
The continued growth of Internet shopping has resulted in many traditional retail outlets leaving the High Street. This has freed up a lot of space, which has been filled by private equity backed firms all with the unique idea of a "A Class Burger Joint".
Fortunately, capitalism is a wonderful thing, and there will be a culling.
Those retail units which go - bookies, coffee shop, tat shop, charity shop, pound shop, boarded up shop, takeaway - are of no real use and certainly no ornament.
Personally I'd rather see the out-of-town retail parks levelled to make way for housing, but wherever it does happen councils should be proactive about it rather than attempt to fruitlessly keep excess retail capacity in use.0 -
I see what you did there :-)FrancisUrquhart said:
I wonder who in the leader's office is a nasty piece of work....TheScreamingEagles said:All kicking off in the shadow cabinet as Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary Debbie Abrahams is forced to stand aside
twitter.com/GraemeDemianyk/status/972927571154350087
twitter.com/GraemeDemianyk/status/972929517856657408
In totally unrelated comments, I seemed to recall that when Seamus left the Guardian his colleagues weren't sad to see him go.0 -
Would be nice to open a few of the no go areasFrancisUrquhart said:Angela Merkel's new interior minister vows to crack down on criminal migrants and kick rejected asylum seekers out of Germany quicker
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5487673/Merkels-new-interior-minister-vows-speed-migrant-deportations.html
Good luck with that...I somehow doubt they are going to get very far unless they ignore the do-gooders and introduce draconian measures where they are willing to just dump people back in their home country even if their home country isn't willing to accept them.
Given Merkel's past record I doubt that will be happening.
0 -
The truth is more mundane than Sean's Hyperbolic rantings about the end of the UK as we know it........brendan16 said:
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
I was an outreach Youth Worker in Preston in the early 1990's...there was nothing, nothing that I, or for that matter, the police could do to help protect many of these young kids from predation from drug suppliers, pimps, sexual exploitation, street violence.... What could you do....remove all these kids from their homes?
It wasn't just Asians to be worried about, it was white men, criminals...all the low life that are associated with poverty that these kids gravitated to...
Poverty, mental health, addictions, drugs, learning disabilities, inter generational deprivation, poor aspirations, child neglect, inadequate parenting, poor access to healthcare, educational breakdown....
that's the truth behind many of these children being incredibly vulnerable and very difficult to protect...it's a little more mundane and more complex than simply pointing out the groups of Asian low life who exploit them....
0 -
In relative terms Germany is quite ruthless on deportations.FrancisUrquhart said:Angela Merkel's new interior minister vows to crack down on criminal migrants and kick rejected asylum seekers out of Germany quicker
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5487673/Merkels-new-interior-minister-vows-speed-migrant-deportations.html
Good luck with that...I somehow doubt they are going to get very far unless they ignore the do-gooders and introduce draconian measures where they are willing to just dump people back in their home country even if their home country isn't willing to accept them.
Given Merkel's past record I doubt that will be happening.
https://www.bundesregierung.de/Content/EN/Artikel/2016/02_en/2016-02-29-de-maiziere-maghreb-rueckfuehrungen-abgelehnte-asylbewerber_en.html
Basically, every state is required to readmit its own citizens, even against their will, if they are not recognised as refugees in Germany. This is a responsibility under international law, which is translated into writing in readmission agreements.0 -
Good luck with that.williamglenn said:
In relative terms Germany is quite ruthless on deportations.FrancisUrquhart said:Angela Merkel's new interior minister vows to crack down on criminal migrants and kick rejected asylum seekers out of Germany quicker
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5487673/Merkels-new-interior-minister-vows-speed-migrant-deportations.html
Good luck with that...I somehow doubt they are going to get very far unless they ignore the do-gooders and introduce draconian measures where they are willing to just dump people back in their home country even if their home country isn't willing to accept them.
Given Merkel's past record I doubt that will be happening.
https://www.bundesregierung.de/Content/EN/Artikel/2016/02_en/2016-02-29-de-maiziere-maghreb-rueckfuehrungen-abgelehnte-asylbewerber_en.html
Basically, every state is required to readmit its own citizens, even against their will, if they are not recognised as refugees in Germany. This is a responsibility under international law, which is translated into writing in readmission agreements.0 -
Except they don't actually do it consistently do theywilliamglenn said:
In relative terms Germany is quite ruthless on deportations.FrancisUrquhart said:Angela Merkel's new interior minister vows to crack down on criminal migrants and kick rejected asylum seekers out of Germany quicker
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5487673/Merkels-new-interior-minister-vows-speed-migrant-deportations.html
Good luck with that...I somehow doubt they are going to get very far unless they ignore the do-gooders and introduce draconian measures where they are willing to just dump people back in their home country even if their home country isn't willing to accept them.
Given Merkel's past record I doubt that will be happening.
https://www.bundesregierung.de/Content/EN/Artikel/2016/02_en/2016-02-29-de-maiziere-maghreb-rueckfuehrungen-abgelehnte-asylbewerber_en.html
Basically, every state is required to readmit its own citizens, even against their will, if they are not recognised as refugees in Germany. This is a responsibility under international law, which is translated into writing in readmission agreements.0 -
Then the establishment can't understand why the electorate vote for people they think will act - Germany and Italy being cases in pointFrancisUrquhart said:
I am sure the BBC and Guardian would have also ignored this story if a white far right racist had done this to a Muslim family....SeanT said:
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.brendan16 said:
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
I mean when the guy from the Times tried to expose previous crimes he wasn't tarred as a racist or anything from sections of the media.0 -
Wow - "not previously seen as a crime"nielh said:
I doubt it. I think the reality is that this stuff was not previously seen as a crime. It now is. It's a societal change, obviously for the better.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
I suspect that this is the tip of the iceberg, essentially the cases are probably endless. But over time, they become less dramatic, and thus less newsworthy.
"probably endless" and "less dramatic over time"
Dear god0 -
All the Daily Mail's fault...SeanT said:
The EU Establishment is wilfully blind, in the weirdest way. The hard or far right has now come second in elections or polls in France, Germany, Holland, Austria, Denmark, etc. Eurosceptics got 50% in Italy. The UK has actually exited.Floater said:
Then the establishment can't understand why the electorate vote for people they think will act - Germany and Italy being cases in pointFrancisUrquhart said:
I am sure the BBC and Guardian would have also ignored this story if a white far right racist had done this to a Muslim family....SeanT said:
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.brendan16 said:
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
I mean when the guy from the Times tried to expose previous crimes he wasn't tarred as a racist or anything from sections of the media.
And still the centrist elite act as if nothing is wrong, the voters are just having a spasm, all will be well as long as there's More Europe. It's a death wish.0 -
You actually make me feel nauseous - yet you call yourself a progressive.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
0 -
False consciousness. Populism is just a spasm.SeanT said:
The EU Establishment is wilfully blind, in the weirdest way. The hard or far right has now come second in elections or polls in France, Germany, Holland, Austria, Denmark, etc. Eurosceptics got 50% in Italy. The UK has actually exited.Floater said:
Then the establishment can't understand why the electorate vote for people they think will act - Germany and Italy being cases in pointFrancisUrquhart said:
I am sure the BBC and Guardian would have also ignored this story if a white far right racist had done this to a Muslim family....SeanT said:
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.brendan16 said:
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
I mean when the guy from the Times tried to expose previous crimes he wasn't tarred as a racist or anything from sections of the media.
And still the centrist elite act as if nothing is wrong, the voters are just having a spasm, all will be well as long as there's More Europe. It's a death wish.0 -
What does Europe have to do with it? The country that is in the worst shape on this issue is probably Sweden and they've always had a Eurosceptic position and only really joined to get access to the single market.SeanT said:
The EU Establishment is wilfully blind, in the weirdest way. The hard or far right has now come second in elections or polls in France, Germany, Holland, Austria, Denmark, etc. Eurosceptics got 50% in Italy. The UK has actually exited.Floater said:
Then the establishment can't understand why the electorate vote for people they think will act - Germany and Italy being cases in pointFrancisUrquhart said:
I am sure the BBC and Guardian would have also ignored this story if a white far right racist had done this to a Muslim family....SeanT said:
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.brendan16 said:
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
I mean when the guy from the Times tried to expose previous crimes he wasn't tarred as a racist or anything from sections of the media.
And still the centrist elite act as if nothing is wrong, the voters are just having a spasm, all will be well as long as there's More Europe. It's a death wish.0 -
We were in Yeovil a few weeks ago: the Quedam Shopping Centre (don't blame me, I didn't name it) has 16 empty shops. To misquote Bruce Springsteen: These shops are going boys and they ain't coming back.OblitusSumMe said:
Other people might, but I don't. Also the implied dependency on cars for transport isn't consistent with more city centre housing unlikely to have much in the way of parking space.Elliot said:
Why? People prefer their housing in town and their shopping out of town.OblitusSumMe said:
There's been a massive increase in retail space over, say, the last twenty years, which it would seem likely the internet is making more than a little excessive.another_richard said:
A lot of redundant retail space would be better used for residential purposes, especially that near town centres and railway stations.rcs1000 said:
I have a theory (bear with me).FrancisUrquhart said:One in three of the UK's top 100 restaurant groups are not making a profit, according to new research into the struggling casual dining sector.
Just a thought, perhaps there are too many of them....
The continued growth of Internet shopping has resulted in many traditional retail outlets leaving the High Street. This has freed up a lot of space, which has been filled by private equity backed firms all with the unique idea of a "A Class Burger Joint".
Fortunately, capitalism is a wonderful thing, and there will be a culling.
Those retail units which go - bookies, coffee shop, tat shop, charity shop, pound shop, boarded up shop, takeaway - are of no real use and certainly no ornament.
Personally I'd rather see the out-of-town retail parks levelled to make way for housing, but wherever it does happen councils should be proactive about it rather than attempt to fruitlessly keep excess retail capacity in use.
0 -
Please read my other post...Floater said:
You actually make me feel nauseous - yet you call yourself a progressive.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
The truth is more mundane than Sean's Hyperbolic rantings about the end of the UK as we know it........
I was an outreach Youth Worker in Preston in the early 1990's...there was nothing, nothing that I, or for that matter, the police could do to help protect many of these young kids from predation from drug suppliers, pimps, sexual exploitation, street violence.... What could you do....remove all these kids from their homes?
It wasn't just Asians to be worried about, it was white men, criminals...all the low life that are associated with poverty that these kids gravitated to...
Poverty, mental health, addictions, drugs, learning disabilities, inter generational deprivation, poor aspirations, child neglect, inadequate parenting, poor access to healthcare, educational breakdown....
that's the truth behind many of these children being incredibly vulnerable and very difficult to protect...it's a little more mundane and more complex than simply pointing out the groups of Asian low life who exploit them....0 -
It is - and a big reason why we had to leaveSeanT said:
The EU Establishment is wilfully blind, in the weirdest way. The hard or far right has now come second in elections or polls in France, Germany, Holland, Austria, Denmark, etc. Eurosceptics got 50% in Italy. The UK has actually exited.Floater said:
Then the establishment can't understand why the electorate vote for people they think will act - Germany and Italy being cases in pointFrancisUrquhart said:
I am sure the BBC and Guardian would have also ignored this story if a white far right racist had done this to a Muslim family....SeanT said:
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.brendan16 said:
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
I mean when the guy from the Times tried to expose previous crimes he wasn't tarred as a racist or anything from sections of the media.
And still the centrist elite act as if nothing is wrong, the voters are just having a spasm, all will be well as long as there's More Europe. It's a death wish.0 -
You appear to have misspelt lead.Floater said:
It is - and a big reason why we had to leaveSeanT said:
The EU Establishment is wilfully blind, in the weirdest way. The hard or far right has now come second in elections or polls in France, Germany, Holland, Austria, Denmark, etc. Eurosceptics got 50% in Italy. The UK has actually exited.Floater said:
Then the establishment can't understand why the electorate vote for people they think will act - Germany and Italy being cases in pointFrancisUrquhart said:
I am sure the BBC and Guardian would have also ignored this story if a white far right racist had done this to a Muslim family....SeanT said:
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.brendan16 said:
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
I mean when the guy from the Times tried to expose previous crimes he wasn't tarred as a racist or anything from sections of the media.
And still the centrist elite act as if nothing is wrong, the voters are just having a spasm, all will be well as long as there's More Europe. It's a death wish.0 -
Another 1,000 victims over that length of time must mean well over 100 perpetrators, possibly several hundred. This year is going to see a series of multiple accused trials from Rotherham and elsewhere with more than 100 accused. It now looks as if next year may well see the same and the year after that. It would be naive to think this is not going to affect people’s attitudes.0
-
Harking back to an earlier thread, I see the "motion of no confidence" in Bercow is merely an EDM - i.e. a motion which has no debate, vote or (usually) impact of any kind. EDMs are in effect collective press releases - you put up your thoughts on something and people who agree can sign it. If that's all that happens, he can shrug it off.0
-
I thought it was Muslims from Asia not poles or Italians who exploited these girls. Have I missed something here? How is leaving eu going to help this situation?Floater said:
It is - and a big reason why we had to leaveSeanT said:
The EU Establishment is wilfully blind, in the weirdest way. The hard or far right has now come second in elections or polls in France, Germany, Holland, Austria, Denmark, etc. Eurosceptics got 50% in Italy. The UK has actually exited.Floater said:
Then the establishment can't understand why the electorate vote for people they think will act - Germany and Italy being cases in pointFrancisUrquhart said:
I am sure the BBC and Guardian would have also ignored this story if a white far right racist had done this to a Muslim family....SeanT said:
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.brendan16 said:
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
I mean when the guy from the Times tried to expose previous crimes he wasn't tarred as a racist or anything from sections of the media.
And still the centrist elite act as if nothing is wrong, the voters are just having a spasm, all will be well as long as there's More Europe. It's a death wish.
We have the same issue in Glasgow but the snp is covering it up. My biggest fear is we replace the east European workers who add to Scotland with more sub continent Asians who I am not sure do.
0 -
ITV News ignored it as well - it is not mentioned on their website or bulletins at all.SeanT said:IF you search the BBC website for "Telford" this is what you get:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/search?q=telford
A story about students, and "firefighters rescue dog".
I mean. It's beyond WTF.
They did of course prominently cover this story - second item on ITV news bulletin tonight. Because half a dozen letters are worse than the rape, abuse and even murder of young girls and women - well that is what their editorial choice suggests is the case!
http://www.itv.com/news/2018-03-11/islamophobic-punish-a-muslim-day-letters-condemned-as-counter-terror-police-investigate/
0 -
I was very surprised when I went through murder rates the other day to find France so much higher than every major European country.SeanT said:
France is seriously afflicted, surely more than Sweden. You have to visit Paris to get the sense of tension between native culture and Islam. Horrible.williamglenn said:
What does Europe have to do with it? The country that is in the worst shape on this issue is probably Sweden and they've always had a Eurosceptic position and only really joined to get access to the single market.SeanT said:
The EU Establishment is wilfully blind, in the weirdest way. The hard or far right has now come second in elections or polls in France, Germany, Holland, Austria, Denmark, etc. Eurosceptics got 50% in Italy. The UK has actually exited.Floater said:
Then the establishment can't understand why the electorate vote for people they think will act - Germany and Italy being cases in pointFrancisUrquhart said:
I am sure the BBC and Guardian would have also ignored this story if a white far right racist had done this to a Muslim family....SeanT said:
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.brendan16 said:
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
I mean when the guy from the Times tried to expose previous crimes he wasn't tarred as a racist or anything from sections of the media.
And still the centrist elite act as if nothing is wrong, the voters are just having a spasm, all will be well as long as there's More Europe. It's a death wish.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate0 -
The Guardian has this but it's from 2013:SeanT said:IF you search the BBC website for "Telford" this is what you get:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/search?q=telford
A story about students, and "firefighters rescue dog".
I mean. It's beyond WTF.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/may/21/woman-expose-sexual-abuse-telford
Then again, this is not really 'news' in the sense of something that's just happened. The Sunday Mirror (left-leaning btw, so I'm not sure its a case of the left trying to cover this up) has done an extended investigation, all very laudable, but a lot of the cases date back 15-20 years.
But they are deeply shocking cases. Not sure how the wider issue can be tackled aside from pumping more resources into the police, education and social services etc.0 -
There's no way the elite could admit to there even being a little bit of a problem. There are no gradations at which they can apply the brakes. No way to stop the issue between "deeply troubling" and "horrific". Every level of acceptance required action they are not prepared to consider.SeanT said:
The EU Establishment is wilfully blind, in the weirdest way. The hard or far right has now come second in elections or polls in France, Germany, Holland, Austria, Denmark, etc. Eurosceptics got 50% in Italy. The UK has actually exited.Floater said:
Then the establishment can't understand why the electorate vote for people they think will act - Germany and Italy being cases in pointFrancisUrquhart said:
I am sure the BBC and Guardian would have also ignored this story if a white far right racist had done this to a Muslim family....SeanT said:
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.brendan16 said:
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
I mean when the guy from the Times tried to expose previous crimes he wasn't tarred as a racist or anything from sections of the media.
And still the centrist elite act as if nothing is wrong, the voters are just having a spasm, all will be well as long as there's More Europe. It's a death wish.
0 -
An example - Mutti Merkel lets in a million or so - they get European citizenship and then they can settle anywhere in the EU - we seem to be a preferred destination.hamiltonace said:
I thought it was Muslims from Asia not poles or Italians who exploited these girls. Have I missed something here? How is leaving eu going to help this situation?Floater said:
It is - and a big reason why we had to leaveSeanT said:
The EU Establishment is wilfully blind, in the weirdest way. The hard or far right has now come second in elections or polls in France, Germany, Holland, Austria, Denmark, etc. Eurosceptics got 50% in Italy. The UK has actually exited.Floater said:
Then the establishment can't understand why the electorate vote for people they think will act - Germany and Italy being cases in pointFrancisUrquhart said:
I am sure the BBC and Guardian would have also ignored this story if a white far right racist had done this to a Muslim family....SeanT said:
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.brendan16 said:
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
I mean when the guy from the Times tried to expose previous crimes he wasn't tarred as a racist or anything from sections of the media.
And still the centrist elite act as if nothing is wrong, the voters are just having a spasm, all will be well as long as there's More Europe. It's a death wish.
We have the same issue in Glasgow but the snp is covering it up. My biggest fear is we replace the east European workers who add to Scotland with more sub continent Asians who I am not sure do.
0 -
As the child of Middle Eastern immigrants, I take offense to that. The problem is a subculture from very rural areas. There are millions of educated, secular-minded democrats who are fine additions to Britain.hamiltonace said:
I thought it was Muslims from Asia not poles or Italians who exploited these girls. Have I missed something here? How is leaving eu going to help this situation?Floater said:
It is - and a big reason why we had to leaveSeanT said:
The EU Establishment is wilfully blind, in the weirdest way. The hard or far right has now come second in elections or polls in France, Germany, Holland, Austria, Denmark, etc. Eurosceptics got 50% in Italy. The UK has actually exited.Floater said:
Then the establishment can't understand why the electorate vote for people they think will act - Germany and Italy being cases in pointFrancisUrquhart said:
I am sure the BBC and Guardian would have also ignored this story if a white far right racist had done this to a Muslim family....SeanT said:
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.brendan16 said:
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
I mean when the guy from the Times tried to expose previous crimes he wasn't tarred as a racist or anything from sections of the media.
And still the centrist elite act as if nothing is wrong, the voters are just having a spasm, all will be well as long as there's More Europe. It's a death wish.
We have the same issue in Glasgow but the snp is covering it up. My biggest fear is we replace the east European workers who add to Scotland with more sub continent Asians who I am not sure do.0 -
Who are the 'elite'? I'll give you a clue - for each of us it's always someone else.MarqueeMark said:
There's no way the elite could admit to there even being a little bit of a problem. There are no gradations at which they can apply the brakes. No way to stop the issue between "deeply troubling" and "horrific". Every level of acceptance required action they are not prepared to consider.SeanT said:
The EU Establishment is wilfully blind, in the weirdest way. The hard or far right has now come second in elections or polls in France, Germany, Holland, Austria, Denmark, etc. Eurosceptics got 50% in Italy. The UK has actually exited.Floater said:
Then the establishment can't understand why the electorate vote for people they think will act - Germany and Italy being cases in pointFrancisUrquhart said:
I am sure the BBC and Guardian would have also ignored this story if a white far right racist had done this to a Muslim family....SeanT said:
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.brendan16 said:
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
I mean when the guy from the Times tried to expose previous crimes he wasn't tarred as a racist or anything from sections of the media.
And still the centrist elite act as if nothing is wrong, the voters are just having a spasm, all will be well as long as there's More Europe. It's a death wish.
For me, it's epitomised by people like JRM and BoJo but I supect MarqueeMark has someone else in mind.0 -
Germany, Denmark and Holland have big problems tooSeanT said:
France is seriously afflicted, surely more than Sweden. You have to visit Paris to get the sense of tension between native culture and Islam. Horrible.williamglenn said:
What does Europe have to do with it? The country that is in the worst shape on this issue is probably Sweden and they've always had a Eurosceptic position and only really joined to get access to the single market.SeanT said:
The EU Establishment is wilfully blind, in the weirdest way. The hard or far right has now come second in elections or polls in France, Germany, Holland, Austria, Denmark, etc. Eurosceptics got 50% in Italy. The UK has actually exited.Floater said:
Then the establishment can't understand why the electorate vote for people they think will act - Germany and Italy being cases in pointFrancisUrquhart said:
I am sure the BBC and Guardian would have also ignored this story if a white far right racist had done this to a Muslim family....SeanT said:
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.brendan16 said:
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
I mean when the guy from the Times tried to expose previous crimes he wasn't tarred as a racist or anything from sections of the media.
And still the centrist elite act as if nothing is wrong, the voters are just having a spasm, all will be well as long as there's More Europe. It's a death wish.0 -
-
I've seen journalists make that mistake so many times I wondered if we're not being told something...Floater said:0 -
I don't disagree - even one case would be one too many. There needs to be a coherent national strategy for stamping out. May and Rudd could/should make this happen.SeanT said:
A lot of the cases are also very recent. This shit, unbelievably, is still happening across the country, and on a massive scaleBenpointer said:
The Guardian has this but it's from 2013:SeanT said:IF you search the BBC website for "Telford" this is what you get:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/search?q=telford
A story about students, and "firefighters rescue dog".
I mean. It's beyond WTF.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/may/21/woman-expose-sexual-abuse-telford
Then again, this is not really 'news' in the sense of something that's just happened. The Sunday Mirror (left-leaning btw, so I'm not sure its a case of the left trying to cover this up) has done an extended investigation, all very laudable, but a lot of the cases date back 15-20 years.
But they are deeply shocking cases. Not sure how the wider issue can be tackled aside from pumping more resources into the police, education and social services etc.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/grooming-gangs-asian-muslim-across-country-uk-girls-children-women-bradford-rotherham-newcastle-a7987381.html0 -
The vast majority of Muslims in the UK do not groom children for sex.SeanT said:
The problem is Islam.Elliot said:
As the child of Middle Eastern immigrants, I take offense to that. The problem is a subculture from very rural areas. There are millions of educated, secular-minded democrats who are fine additions to Britain.hamiltonace said:
I thought it was Muslims from Asia not poles or Italians who exploited these girls. Have I missed something here? How is leaving eu going to help this situation?Floater said:
It is - and a big reason why we had to leaveSeanT said:
.Floater said:
Then the establishment can't understand why the electorate vote for people they think will act - Germany and Italy being cases in pointFrancisUrquhart said:
.SeanT said:
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.brendan16 said:
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
We have the same issue in Glasgow but the snp is covering it up. My biggest fear is we replace the east European workers who add to Scotland with more sub continent Asians who I am not sure do.0 -
Islamophobia is not the answer.SeanT said:
The problem is Islam.Elliot said:
As the child of Middle Eastern immigrants, I take offense to that. The problem is a subculture from very rural areas. There are millions of educated, secular-minded democrats who are fine additions to Britain.hamiltonace said:
I thought it was Muslims from Asia not poles or Italians who exploited these girls. Have I missed something here? How is leaving eu going to help this situation?Floater said:
It is - and a big reason why we had to leaveSeanT said:
The EU Establishment is wilfully blind, in the weirdest way. The hard or far right has now come second in elections or polls in France, Germany, Holland, Austria, Denmark, etc. Eurosceptics got 50% in Italy. The UK has actually exited.Floater said:
Then the establishment can't understand why the electorate vote for people they think will act - Germany and Italy being cases in pointFrancisUrquhart said:
I am sure the BBC and Guardian would have also ignored this story if a white far right racist had done this to a Muslim family....SeanT said:
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.brendan16 said:
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
I mean when the guy from the Times tried to expose previous crimes he wasn't tarred as a racist or anything from sections of the media.
And still the centrist elite act as if nothing is wrong, the voters are just having a spasm, all will be well as long as there's More Europe. It's a death wish.
We have the same issue in Glasgow but the snp is covering it up. My biggest fear is we replace the east European workers who add to Scotland with more sub continent Asians who I am not sure do.0 -
But neither do the vast majority of Muslims in the UK rat out those few who DO groom children for sex. It is a peculiarly Muslim problem, and yes, it may be a limited problem with roots in rural south Asians. But how many mosques call it out as utterly unacceptable behaviour each Friday?Elliot said:
The vast majority of Muslims in the UK do not groom children for sex.SeanT said:
The problem is Islam.Elliot said:
As the child of Middle Eastern immigrants, I take offense to that. The problem is a subculture from very rural areas. There are millions of educated, secular-minded democrats who are fine additions to Britain.hamiltonace said:
I thought it was Muslims from Asia not poles or Italians who exploited these girls. Have I missed something here? How is leaving eu going to help this situation?Floater said:
It is - and a big reason why we had to leaveSeanT said:
.Floater said:
Then the establishment can't understand why the electorate vote for people they think will act - Germany and Italy being cases in pointFrancisUrquhart said:
.SeanT said:
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.brendan16 said:
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.tyson said:
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...SeanT said:How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
We have the same issue in Glasgow but the snp is covering it up. My biggest fear is we replace the east European workers who add to Scotland with more sub continent Asians who I am not sure do.0 -
They already have a strategy, which is to prosecute the offenders.Benpointer said:
I don't disagree - even one case would be one too many. There needs to be a coherent national strategy for stamping out. May and Rudd could/should make this happen.SeanT said:
A lot of the cases are also very recent. This shit, unbelievably, is still happening across the country, and on a massive scaleBenpointer said:
The Guardian has this but it's from 2013:SeanT said:IF you search the BBC website for "Telford" this is what you get:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/search?q=telford
A story about students, and "firefighters rescue dog".
I mean. It's beyond WTF.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/may/21/woman-expose-sexual-abuse-telford
Then again, this is not really 'news' in the sense of something that's just happened. The Sunday Mirror (left-leaning btw, so I'm not sure its a case of the left trying to cover this up) has done an extended investigation, all very laudable, but a lot of the cases date back 15-20 years.
But they are deeply shocking cases. Not sure how the wider issue can be tackled aside from pumping more resources into the police, education and social services etc.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/grooming-gangs-asian-muslim-across-country-uk-girls-children-women-bradford-rotherham-newcastle-a7987381.html0 -
I meant a preventative strategy.nielh said:
They already have a strategy, which is to prosecute the offenders.Benpointer said:
I don't disagree - even one case would be one too many. There needs to be a coherent national strategy for stamping out. May and Rudd could/should make this happen.SeanT said:
A lot of the cases are also very recent. This shit, unbelievably, is still happening across the country, and on a massive scaleBenpointer said:
The Guardian has this but it's from 2013:SeanT said:IF you search the BBC website for "Telford" this is what you get:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/search?q=telford
A story about students, and "firefighters rescue dog".
I mean. It's beyond WTF.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/may/21/woman-expose-sexual-abuse-telford
Then again, this is not really 'news' in the sense of something that's just happened. The Sunday Mirror (left-leaning btw, so I'm not sure its a case of the left trying to cover this up) has done an extended investigation, all very laudable, but a lot of the cases date back 15-20 years.
But they are deeply shocking cases. Not sure how the wider issue can be tackled aside from pumping more resources into the police, education and social services etc.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/grooming-gangs-asian-muslim-across-country-uk-girls-children-women-bradford-rotherham-newcastle-a7987381.html0 -
I wouldn't say that the problem is with Islam per se - but rather with a culture within Islam that values women so poorly and white women even more poorly that this grooming is seen as acceptable. Add to that an unwillingness of the authorities to properly enforce the law when it comes to dealing with certain communities. These two elements together have produced a toxic culture where abuse is seen as the norm and no-one is prepared to take sufficient action to investigate/prevent it. Things have changed - but not fast enough and without an honest acknowledgement that there are those within the Muslim community who have helped conceal/cover-up the problem and that there is a cultural issue within parts of Islam where women are not viewed as full human beings.0
