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Our elected leaders sit on the EU Council. Our elected MEPs sit in the EU parliament. We vote for these people.kyf_100 said:
However, we are also taking back the ability to directly hire and fire the people who make the laws that govern us.Beverley_C said:
The Brexit fallacy is that we are taking back control. No we are not. There is no control and there never was. Countries all get tossed around by events. Remember "Events, dear boy, events!"? Nothing has changed. By isolating ourselves we just become more exposed to the turbulence of events.Peter_the_Punter said:I'm in my seventieth year and it is the first time I have felt despondent about the direction of the country. It has made a fundamental and irreversible change of direction and I do not see it recovering in my lifetime.
I also see little hope. We simply have no politicians worthy of the job. Corbyn or JRM as possible future leaders? It would be hilarious if it was not so heartbreaking.
The very fact that Brexit is proving so difficult shows exactly how many powers were transferred, without any real form of consent, to what is at best a largely unaccountable bureacracy with very poor democratic checks and balances.
The UK Bureaucracy / Civil Service is largely unaccountable
As for directly hiring and firing "... the people who make the laws that govern us. " - have you looked at the selection of inadequates we have to choose from? I would ban the whole bl**dy lot of them and start again from fresh. Sticking pins in the Electoral Roll and selecting 650 people at random would probably produce more talent than the current shower.0 -
Maybe fiction will become the new reality , an update to Chris Mullins book .A very British Coup.AlastairMeeks said:
Of course it wouldn't. The Corbynites would assume that the whole thing was a media plot against him.rkrkrk said:
I think it would bring him down as leader if Diane Abbott/someone else made allegations against him.Anorak said:Tangential to the thread topic, I can't tell you how hilarious I'd find it if the excruciatingly pious JC was caught up in the allegations. Maybe Diane can tell us a tale or two...
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Fixed it for youCyclefree said:Parliament is was a serious business not before it became some sort of teenage sleepover.
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I'd make an exception for Frank Field and Stella Creasy and Norman Lamb. Off the top of my head.Beverley_C said:
Our elected leaders sit on the EU Council. Our elected MEPs sit in the EU parliament. We vote for these people.kyf_100 said:
However, we are also taking back the ability to directly hire and fire the people who make the laws that govern us.Beverley_C said:
The Brexit fallacy is that we are taking back control. No we are not. There is no control and there never was. Countries all get tossed around by events. Remember "Events, dear boy, events!"? Nothing has changed. By isolating ourselves we just become more exposed to the turbulence of events.Peter_the_Punter said:I'm in my seventieth year and it is the first time I have felt despondent about the direction of the country. It has made a fundamental and irreversible change of direction and I do not see it recovering in my lifetime.
I also see little hope. We simply have no politicians worthy of the job. Corbyn or JRM as possible future leaders? It would be hilarious if it was not so heartbreaking.
The very fact that Brexit is proving so difficult shows exactly how many powers were transferred, without any real form of consent, to what is at best a largely unaccountable bureacracy with very poor democratic checks and balances.
The UK Bureaucracy / Civil Service is largely unaccountable
As for directly hiring and firing "... the people who make the laws that govern us. " - have you looked at the selection of inadequates we have to choose from? I would ban the whole bl**dy lot of them and start again from fresh. Sticking pins in the Electoral Roll and selecting 650 people at random would probably produce more talent than the current shower.0 -
Who knows what he will do? I am not sure Corbyn knows.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Is Corbyn going to ban abortion?Beverley_C said:
Ireland is climbing out of its dark age - the UK is returning to its dark age. We will wave at you as we pass.TGOHF said:
Says the poster with the flag of a country stuck in 1517 and where abortion isn't legal yet as her avatar.Beverley_C said:
The Conservatives are a divided collection of fools wearing rose-tinted glasses and Labour has been hijacked by people who ideology has failed everywhere it has been tried.Sean_F said:The Conservatives are a bit dismal, and Labour are worse, but that's been the case for most of my adult life. It's certainly no reason to leave the country. On the whole, this is a good place to live in. I'd qualify for an Irish passport, but why should I want one?
This was the best country in the world in which to live. Nowadays, it is simply on borrowed time.0 -
Most hospitals have canteen facilities for most, if not all, of the 24 hours. However, alcohol isn’t available.Cyclefree said:
A canteen/restaurant is fine.NickPalmer said:
I virtually never used the bars, but for a place where people work up to 18 hours a day and are on intermittent 8 minutes' notice that they may need to vote, some sort of refreshments facility on site is essential. Anywhere that served Coca-Cola would be fine with me, but I think one has to accept that some MPs will want beer. Not serving stronger booze might make sense.Anorak said:
I work in Westminster. The number of pubs is small, and the number of decent pubs is smaller still.Cyclefree said:
Is there any reason why there should be bars in Parliament? It's a place of work after all. Most employers don't have pubs or cocktail bars on their premises. Nor do workplace canteens generally serve alcohol.Scott_P said:
And it's not as if London is short of bars if MPs or their staff want to imbibe. Of course this wouldn't stop misbehaviour but it might, just might, make it a little bit harder for it to happen, if there are members of the public around.
I'm already fed up with queuing for crap beer, so I don't want 1000+ MP, spads and assorted bag carriers clogging up the watering holes even more. They are very welcome to their subsidised bars.
I regularly worked 18 hour days. Only recently was there a canteen open in the evening. If you worked late, you ate at home or bought a sandwich or did without. The idea that I and others should be drinking while working would have been inconceivable. Indeed, it would be a disciplinary offence. Not something to be indulged let alone subsidised.
And Australian cricket grounds sell a sort of watered down beer, about 2% Disgusting stuff I thought it, but people seem to enjoy it and drink lots of it.0 -
Mrs C, there's no European demos and a small minority of elected politicians (with whom you're comparing the UK Civil Service, which seems unfair) are British.
This problem has built up over years, as triangulating politicians have only spoken in sceptical terms to curry domestic political favour whilst flinging powers and money at Brussels (power which was not theirs to give away).
We are in for a difficult time in the next few years, not least because whatever happens about half the country will be grumpy about it. Personally, I'm far more concerned about the self-declared friend of Hamas.0 -
Fudge, fudge, fudge.Beverley_C said:
Our elected leaders sit on the EU Council. Our elected MEPs sit in the EU parliament. We vote for these people.kyf_100 said:
However, we are also taking back the ability to directly hire and fire the people who make the laws that govern us.Beverley_C said:
The Brexit fallacy is that we are taking back control. No we are not. There is no control and there never was. Countries all get tossed around by events. Remember "Events, dear boy, events!"? Nothing has changed. By isolating ourselves we just become more exposed to the turbulence of events.Peter_the_Punter said:I'm in my seventieth year and it is the first time I have felt despondent about the direction of the country. It has made a fundamental and irreversible change of direction and I do not see it recovering in my lifetime.
I also see little hope. We simply have no politicians worthy of the job. Corbyn or JRM as possible future leaders? It would be hilarious if it was not so heartbreaking.
The very fact that Brexit is proving so difficult shows exactly how many powers were transferred, without any real form of consent, to what is at best a largely unaccountable bureacracy with very poor democratic checks and balances.
The UK Bureaucracy / Civil Service is largely unaccountable
As for directly hiring and firing "... the people who make the laws that govern us. " - have you looked at the selection of inadequates we have to choose from? I would ban the whole bl**dy lot of them and start again from fresh. Sticking pins in the Electoral Roll and selecting 650 people at random would probably produce more talent than the current shower.
You cannot possibly equate the fact I have a vote in the UK with this being an equal 'voice' in the wider EU.
Take the Merkel decision to open Germany's borders to all comers last year. That was a decision taken by a German politician who I have no say in electing. However, once those immigrants attain EU citizenship via Germany, they are free to come to the UK - a decision in which I have no say whatsoever. How is this democratic?
Our elected leaders sit on the EU council and are regularly overruled. Our elected MEPs sit in the EU parliament which is toothless at best, a deliberate stitch up at worst. The EU is a technocratic bureaucracy run for the benefit of the establishment class, with a bare fig leaf of 'democracy' to hide its nakedness.
For all its negatives, and there are a great many many, Brexit will mean I will finally be able to hold those who pass laws over me accountable. This is, quite literally, taking back control.
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Give him the sack, or give him an award?
https://twitter.com/DailyMailUK/status/9257510588566364160 -
And who "governs" the price of oil, climate change, giant tech companies, the terrorist threat etc etc etc? How can people in the UK exercise influence over these factors, which have far more impact on most of us than 95% of the laws passed by Westminster and the EU put together?Beverley_C said:
Our elected leaders sit on the EU Council. Our elected MEPs sit in the EU parliament. We vote for these people.kyf_100 said:
However, we are also taking back the ability to directly hire and fire the people who make the laws that govern us.Beverley_C said:
The Brexit fallacy is that we are taking back control. No we are not. There is no control and there never was. Countries all get tossed around by events. Remember "Events, dear boy, events!"? Nothing has changed. By isolating ourselves we just become more exposed to the turbulence of events.Peter_the_Punter said:I'm in my seventieth year and it is the first time I have felt despondent about the direction of the country. It has made a fundamental and irreversible change of direction and I do not see it recovering in my lifetime.
I also see little hope. We simply have no politicians worthy of the job. Corbyn or JRM as possible future leaders? It would be hilarious if it was not so heartbreaking.
The very fact that Brexit is proving so difficult shows exactly how many powers were transferred, without any real form of consent, to what is at best a largely unaccountable bureacracy with very poor democratic checks and balances.
The UK Bureaucracy / Civil Service is largely unaccountable
As for directly hiring and firing "... the people who make the laws that govern us. " - have you looked at the selection of inadequates we have to choose from? I would ban the whole bl**dy lot of them and start again from fresh. Sticking pins in the Electoral Roll and selecting 650 people at random would probably produce more talent than the current shower.0 -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/01/damian-green-investigated-alleged-inappropriate-advance-female/
"Damian Green is prepared to release text messages he sent to a female activist to a Cabinet Office inquiry in a bid to disprove allegations that he made inappropriate advances."0 -
I don’t think our elected leaders are over-ruled any more frequently than any other leaders. They might have stamped their feet and thrown their toys out of the pram a bit more, that’s all.kyf_100 said:
Fudge, fudge, fudge.Beverley_C said:
Our elected leaders sit on the EU Council. Our elected MEPs sit in the EU parliament. We vote for these people.kyf_100 said:
However, we are also taking back the ability to directly hire and fire the people who make the laws that govern us.Beverley_C said:
The Brexit fallacy is that we are taking back control. No we are not. There is no control and there never was. Countries all get tossed around by events. Remember "Events, dear boy, events!"? Nothing has changed. By isolating ourselves we just become more exposed to the turbulence of events.Peter_the_Punter said:I'm in my seventieth year and it is the first time I have felt despondent about the direction of the country. It has made a fundamental and irreversible change of direction and I do not see it recovering in my lifetime.
I also see little hope. We simply have no politicians worthy of the job. Corbyn or JRM as possible future leaders? It would be hilarious if it was not so heartbreaking.
The very fact that Brexit is proving so difficult shows exactly how many powers were transferred, without any real form of consent, to what is at best a largely unaccountable bureacracy with very poor democratic checks and balances.
The UK Bureaucracy / Civil Service is largely unaccountable
You cannot possibly equate the fact I have a vote in the UK with this being an equal 'voice' in the wider EU.
Take the Merkel decision to open Germany's borders to all comers last year. That was a decision taken by a German politician who I have no say in electing. However, once those immigrants attain EU citizenship via Germany, they are free to come to the UK - a decision in which I have no say whatsoever. How is this democratic?
Our elected leaders sit on the EU council and are regularly overruled. Our elected MEPs sit in the EU parliament which is toothless at best, a deliberate stitch up at worst. The EU is a technocratic bureaucracy run for the benefit of the establishment class, with a bare fig leaf of 'democracy' to hide its nakedness.
For all its negatives, and there are a great many many, Brexit will mean I will finally be able to hold those who pass laws over me accountable. This is, quite literally, taking back control.0 -
This was an issue argued over in advance of the referendum and like so many things there is no easy answer:OldKingCole said:
I don’t think our elected leaders are over-ruled any more frequently than any other leaders. They might have stamped their feet and thrown their toys out of the pram a bit more, that’s all.
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/
I suspect many times the UK will have allowed things to pass unanimously rather than be the only person in the room voting against.0 -
I Liked this from News Thump: http://newsthump.com/2017/11/01/brexit-negotiations-to-be-final-task-on-this-years-apprentice/
One group of clueless idiots will replace another when the negotiation of Britain’s EU divorce settlement is handed over to the finalists of The Apprentice 2017.
The last two remaining candidates will have a single day to negotiate a Brexit deal, assisted by the hapless twats who’ve already been fired. The finalist who negotiates the least devastating deal will then be crowned the winner.0 -
MPs aren't really employees though are they. There's no 'set' hours or terms of employment, and they have their own special status on things like tax returns.Cyclefree said:
A canteen/restaurant is fine.NickPalmer said:
I virtually never used the bars, but for a place where people work up to 18 hours a day and are on intermittent 8 minutes' notice that they may need to vote, some sort of refreshments facility on site is essential. Anywhere that served Coca-Cola would be fine with me, but I think one has to accept that some MPs will want beer. Not serving stronger booze might make sense.Anorak said:
I work in Westminster. The number of pubs is small, and the number of decent pubs is smaller still.Cyclefree said:
Is there any reason why there should be bars in Parliament? It's a place of work after all. Most employers don't have pubs or cocktail bars on their premises. Nor do workplace canteens generally serve alcohol.Scott_P said:
And it's not as if London is short of bars if MPs or their staff want to imbibe. Of course this wouldn't stop misbehaviour but it might, just might, make it a little bit harder for it to happen, if there are members of the public around.
I'm already fed up with queuing for crap beer, so I don't want 1000+ MP, spads and assorted bag carriers clogging up the watering holes even more. They are very welcome to their subsidised bars.
I regularly worked 18 hour days. Only recently was there a canteen open in the evening. If you worked late, you ate at home or bought a sandwich or did without. The idea that I and others should be drinking while working would have been inconceivable. Indeed, it would be a disciplinary offence. Not something to be indulged let alone subsidised.
wether thats a good thing or not is another matter...0 -
Perhaps. I'm of the view that British sovereignty ended de facto, if not necessarily de jure, with the introduction of QMV. Enlargement from 12 member states to the current 28 further diluted our sovereignty to the point of meaninglessness.OldKingCole said:
I don’t think our elected leaders are over-ruled any more frequently than any other leaders. They might have stamped their feet and thrown their toys out of the pram a bit more, that’s all.kyf_100 said:
Fudge, fudge, fudge.Beverley_C said:
Our elected leaders sit on the EU Council. Our elected MEPs sit in the EU parliament. We vote for these people.kyf_100 said:
However, we are also taking back the ability to directly hire and fire the people who make the laws that govern us.
The very fact that Brexit is proving so difficult shows exactly how many powers were transferred, without any real form of consent, to what is at best a largely unaccountable bureacracy with very poor democratic checks and balances.
The UK Bureaucracy / Civil Service is largely unaccountable
You cannot possibly equate the fact I have a vote in the UK with this being an equal 'voice' in the wider EU.
Take the Merkel decision to open Germany's borders to all comers last year. That was a decision taken by a German politician who I have no say in electing. However, once those immigrants attain EU citizenship via Germany, they are free to come to the UK - a decision in which I have no say whatsoever. How is this democratic?
Our elected leaders sit on the EU council and are regularly overruled. Our elected MEPs sit in the EU parliament which is toothless at best, a deliberate stitch up at worst. The EU is a technocratic bureaucracy run for the benefit of the establishment class, with a bare fig leaf of 'democracy' to hide its nakedness.
For all its negatives, and there are a great many many, Brexit will mean I will finally be able to hold those who pass laws over me accountable. This is, quite literally, taking back control.
The simple fact is, for me, I want to be able to feel as if I have a say in the hiring and firing of the people who make the laws that govern me. I do not get that feeling from the EU at all. The UK is also in need of serious reform (electoral reform, lords reform, and so on). But the fact remains that the EU was by far and away the biggest threat to democratic accountability. If I believed it were possible to change things from inside, if I believed the EU was heading in a more, not less, democratic direction, I would have voted to remain.0 -
I understand that argument, and indeed have some sympathy with it. However, I felt, and feel that the EU is crawling towards a proper democratic set-up and we should have been part of pushing that along, not falling for the lunacies of UKIP and electing them as our representatives.kyf_100 said:
Perhaps. I'm of the view that British sovereignty ended de facto, if not necessarily de jure, with the introduction of QMV. Enlargement from 12 member states to the current 28 further diluted our sovereignty to the point of meaninglessness.OldKingCole said:
I don’t think our elected leaders are over-ruled any more frequently than any other leaders. They might have stamped their feet and thrown their toys out of the pram a bit more, that’s all.kyf_100 said:Beverley_C said:
Our elected leaders sit on the EU Council. Our elected MEPs sit in the EU parliament. We vote for these people.kyf_100 said:
However, we are also taking back the ability to directly hire and fire the people who make the laws that govern us.
The very fact that Brexit is proving so difficult shows exactly how many powers were transferred, without any real form of consent, to what is at best a largely unaccountable bureacracy with very poor democratic checks and balances.
The UK Bureaucracy / Civil Service is largely unaccountable
Take the Merkel decision to open Germany's borders to all comers last year. That was a decision taken by a German politician who I have no say in electing. However, once those immigrants attain EU citizenship via Germany, they are free to come to the UK - a decision in which I have no say whatsoever. How is this democratic?
Our elected leaders sit on the EU council and are regularly overruled. Our elected MEPs sit in the EU parliament which is toothless at best, a deliberate stitch up at worst. The EU is a technocratic bureaucracy run for the benefit of the establishment class, with a bare fig leaf of 'democracy' to hide its nakedness.
For all its negatives, and there are a great many many, Brexit will mean I will finally be able to hold those who pass laws over me accountable. This is, quite literally, taking back control.
The simple fact is, for me, I want to be able to feel as if I have a say in the hiring and firing of the people who make the laws that govern me. I do not get that feeling from the EU at all. The UK is also in need of serious reform (electoral reform, lords reform, and so on). But the fact remains that the EU was by far and away the biggest threat to democratic accountability. If I believed it were possible to change things from inside, if I believed the EU was heading in a more, not less, democratic direction, I would have voted to remain.0 -
Sorry - I thought that was a report from Brussels on the current progress...OldKingCole said:I Liked this from News Thump: http://newsthump.com/2017/11/01/brexit-negotiations-to-be-final-task-on-this-years-apprentice/
One group of clueless idiots will replace another when the negotiation of Britain’s EU divorce settlement is handed over to the finalists of The Apprentice 2017.
The last two remaining candidates will have a single day to negotiate a Brexit deal, assisted by the hapless twats who’ve already been fired. The finalist who negotiates the least devastating deal will then be crowned the winner.
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I made exactly that point in another post down-threadanothernick said:And who "governs" the price of oil, climate change, giant tech companies, the terrorist threat etc etc etc? How can people in the UK exercise influence over these factors, which have far more impact on most of us than 95% of the laws passed by Westminster and the EU put together?
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@OKC
The Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was the Rubicon.
We were promised a vote. It was reneged on. Blatantly. My belief in the good faith of our leaders on this went. We were being shoe horned whether we wanted it or not along the road the ever closer union.
I really wanted Cameron to pull the chestnuts out of the fire with a real renegotiation, but neither he nor any of the European leaders took it seriously. So having been denied any number of possibilities to be consulted on this over decades, in ways that would not have meant leaving, the one time we were was the nuclear option, which not many in power and comfort thought we'd take. Hence the trauma ever since, because deep down a lot of our political class going back decades realise they screwed up royally.
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Normally I would agree, but I am becoming more jaded with the whole d*rn lot.Cyclefree said:
I'd make an exception for Frank Field and Stella Creasy and Norman Lamb. Off the top of my head.Beverley_C said:
Our elected leaders sit on the EU Council. Our elected MEPs sit in the EU parliament. We vote for these people.kyf_100 said:
However, we are also taking back the ability to directly hire and fire the people who make the laws that govern us.Beverley_C said:
The Brexit fallacy is that we are taking back control. No we are not. There is no control and there never was. Countries all get tossed around by events. Remember "Events, dear boy, events!"? Nothing has changed. By isolating ourselves we just become more exposed to the turbulence of events.Peter_the_Punter said:I'm in my seventieth year and it is the first time I have felt despondent about the direction of the country. It has made a fundamental and irreversible change of direction and I do not see it recovering in my lifetime.
I also see little hope. We simply have no politicians worthy of the job. Corbyn or JRM as possible future leaders? It would be hilarious if it was not so heartbreaking.
The very fact that Brexit is proving so difficult shows exactly how many powers were transferred, without any real form of consent, to what is at best a largely unaccountable bureacracy with very poor democratic checks and balances.
The UK Bureaucracy / Civil Service is largely unaccountable
As for directly hiring and firing "... the people who make the laws that govern us. " - have you looked at the selection of inadequates we have to choose from? I would ban the whole bl**dy lot of them and start again from fresh. Sticking pins in the Electoral Roll and selecting 650 people at random would probably produce more talent than the current shower.0 -
Where do you get that feeling from ? Any particular event or events ?OldKingCole said:
. However, I felt, and feel that the EU is crawling towards a proper democratic set-upkyf_100 said:
Perhaps. I'm of the view that British sovereignty ended de facto, if not necessarily de jure, with the introduction of QMV. Enlargement from 12 member states to the current 28 further diluted our sovereignty to the point of meaninglessness.OldKingCole said:
I don’t think our elected leaders are over-ruled any more frequently than any other leaders. They might have stamped their feet and thrown their toys out of the pram a bit more, that’s all.kyf_100 said:Beverley_C said:
Our elected leaders sit on the EU Council. Our elected MEPs sit in the EU parliament. We vote for these people.kyf_100 said:
However, we are also taking back the ability to directly hire and fire the people who make the laws that govern us.
The very fact that Brexit is proving so difficult shows exactly how many powers were transferred, without any real form of consent, to what is at best a largely unaccountable bureacracy with very poor democratic checks and balances.
The UK Bureaucracy / Civil Service is largely unaccountable
Take the Merkel decision to open Germany's borders to all comers last year. That was a decision taken by a German politician who I have no say in electing. However, once those immigrants attain EU citizenship via Germany, they are free to come to the UK - a decision in which I have no say whatsoever. How is this democratic?
Our elected leaders sit on the EU council and are regularly overruled. Our elected MEPs sit in the EU parliament which is toothless at best, a deliberate stitch up at worst. The EU is a technocratic bureaucracy run for the benefit of the establishment class, with a bare fig leaf of 'democracy' to hide its nakedness.
For all its negatives, and there are a great many many, Brexit will mean I will finally be able to hold those who pass laws over me accountable. This is, quite literally, taking back control.
The simple fact is, for me, I want to be able to feel as if I have a say in the hiring and firing of the people who make the laws that govern me. I do not get that feeling from the EU at all. The UK is also in need of serious reform (electoral reform, lords reform, and so on). But the fact remains that the EU was by far and away the biggest threat to democratic accountability. If I believed it were possible to change things from inside, if I believed the EU was heading in a more, not less, democratic direction, I would have voted to remain.0 -
Mr. Owl, I agree with much of that.
Although I think much of the political class is upset with the electorate rather than themselves. They've locked us in so close that leaving is very difficult, and blame the electorate for wanting out rather than themselves for binding the UK so badly.
The deceit over the Lisbon referendum (the Constitution with a new font and a few paragraphs reordered) was rancid.0 -
We should have had a vote over Lisbon. Almost Brown’s Iraq.welshowl said:
@OKC
The Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was the Rubicon.
We were promised a vote. It was reneged on. Blatantly. My belief in the good faith of our leaders on this went. We were being shoe horned whether we wanted it or not along the road the ever closer union.
I really wanted Cameron to pull the chestnuts out of the fire with a real renegotiation, but neither he nor any of the European leaders took it seriously. So having been denied any number of possibilities to be consulted on this over decades, in ways that would not have meant leaving, the one time we were was the nuclear option, which not many in power and comfort thought we'd take. Hence the trauma ever since, because deep down a lot of our political class going back decades realise they screwed up royally.0 -
Brexit is about our freedom to eat chlorinated chicken. That's it. Everything else is downside.kyf_100 said:However, we are also taking back the ability to directly hire and fire the people who make the laws that govern us.
The very fact that Brexit is proving so difficult shows exactly how many powers were transferred, without any real form of consent, to what is at best a largely unaccountable bureacracy with very poor democratic checks and balances.
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/9257542902909952000 -
They are still working when voting and hanging round waiting to vote. So, IMO, they should not be getting pissed.Slackbladder said:
MPs aren't really employees though are they. There's no 'set' hours or terms of employment, and they have their own special status on things like tax returns.Cyclefree said:
A canteen/restaurant is fine.NickPalmer said:
I virtually never used the bars, but for a place where people work up to 18 hours a day and are on intermittent 8 minutes' notice that they may need to vote, some sort of refreshments facility on site is essential. Anywhere that served Coca-Cola would be fine with me, but I think one has to accept that some MPs will want beer. Not serving stronger booze might make sense.Anorak said:
I work in Westminster. The number of pubs is small, and the number of decent pubs is smaller still.Cyclefree said:
Is there any reason why there should be bars in Parliament? It's a place of work after all. Most employers don't have pubs or cocktail bars on their premises. Nor do workplace canteens generally serve alcohol.Scott_P said:
And it's not as if London is short of bars if MPs or their staff want to imbibe. Of course this wouldn't stop misbehaviour but it might, just might, make it a little bit harder for it to happen, if there are members of the public around.
I'm already fed up with queuing for crap beer, so I don't want 1000+ MP, spads and assorted bag carriers clogging up the watering holes even more. They are very welcome to their subsidised bars.
I regularly worked 18 hour days. Only recently was there a canteen open in the evening. If you worked late, you ate at home or bought a sandwich or did without. The idea that I and others should be drinking while working would have been inconceivable. Indeed, it would be a disciplinary offence. Not something to be indulged let alone subsidised.
wether thats a good thing or not is another matter...
Once they’ve finished voting they can go off home or to a pub to get pissed to their heart’s content, at their own expense. Just like the rest of us.
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It reads surprisingly well, given he has to keep to his capitalisation plan across the whole piece.Sandpit said:
Give him the sack, or give him an award?
https://twitter.com/DailyMailUK/status/9257510588566364160 -
Mr. 43, didn't we used to have chlorinated chicken a few decades ago? It seems very much a 50/50 issue, to be honest.0
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This. Exactly this.welshowl said:
@OKC
The Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was the Rubicon.
We were promised a vote. It was reneged on. Blatantly. My belief in the good faith of our leaders on this went. We were being shoe horned whether we wanted it or not along the road the ever closer union.
I really wanted Cameron to pull the chestnuts out of the fire with a real renegotiation, but neither he nor any of the European leaders took it seriously. So having been denied any number of possibilities to be consulted on this over decades, in ways that would not have meant leaving, the one time we were was the nuclear option, which not many in power and comfort thought we'd take. Hence the trauma ever since, because deep down a lot of our political class going back decades realise they screwed up royally.0 -
Quite. Maastricht, Nice, Amsterdam, Lisbon all options to say "hang on we think this is going too far too fast, change course a bit please". I suspect our politicos knew there was a high chance that would be the result of consulting, but on they ploughed regardless, till eventually the ballot box caught up with them.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Owl, I agree with much of that.
Although I think much of the political class is upset with the electorate rather than themselves. They've locked us in so close that leaving is very difficult, and blame the electorate for wanting out rather than themselves for binding the UK so badly.
The deceit over the Lisbon referendum (the Constitution with a new font and a few paragraphs reordered) was rancid.0 -
Hm, which would you prefer, chlorinated chicken or horsemeat lasagne?FF43 said:
Brexit is about our freedom to eat chlorinated chicken. That's it. Everything else is downside.kyf_100 said:However, we are also taking back the ability to directly hire and fire the people who make the laws that govern us.
The very fact that Brexit is proving so difficult shows exactly how many powers were transferred, without any real form of consent, to what is at best a largely unaccountable bureacracy with very poor democratic checks and balances.
twitter.com/SkyNews/status/925754290290995200
0 -
Quite so. Such a good point that it's worth making again and again.Beverley_C said:
I made exactly that point in another post down-threadanothernick said:And who "governs" the price of oil, climate change, giant tech companies, the terrorist threat etc etc etc? How can people in the UK exercise influence over these factors, which have far more impact on most of us than 95% of the laws passed by Westminster and the EU put together?
0 -
I see we've reached the point where Leavers are blaming politicians for their own insanity.
You've got to admire the adventurousness of the approach.0 -
They are employed by the electorate, are they not?Slackbladder said:
MPs aren't really employees though are they. There's no 'set' hours or terms of employment, and they have their own special status on things like tax returns.Cyclefree said:
A canteen/restaurant is fine.NickPalmer said:
I virtually never used the bars, but for a place where people work up to 18 hours a day and are on intermittent 8 minutes' notice that they may need to vote, some sort of refreshments facility on site is essential. Anywhere that served Coca-Cola would be fine with me, but I think one has to accept that some MPs will want beer. Not serving stronger booze might make sense.Anorak said:
I work in Westminster. The number of pubs is small, and the number of decent pubs is smaller still.Cyclefree said:
Is there any reason why there should be bars in Parliament? It's a place of work after all. Most employers don't have pubs or cocktail bars on their premises. Nor do workplace canteens generally serve alcohol.Scott_P said:
And it's not as if London is short of bars if MPs or their staff want to imbibe. Of course this wouldn't stop misbehaviour but it might, just might, make it a little bit harder for it to happen, if there are members of the public around.
I'm already fed up with queuing for crap beer, so I don't want 1000+ MP, spads and assorted bag carriers clogging up the watering holes even more. They are very welcome to their subsidised bars.
I regularly worked 18 hour days. Only recently was there a canteen open in the evening. If you worked late, you ate at home or bought a sandwich or did without. The idea that I and others should be drinking while working would have been inconceivable. Indeed, it would be a disciplinary offence. Not something to be indulged let alone subsidised.
wether thats a good thing or not is another matter...0 -
anothernick said:
Quite so. Such a good point that it's worth making again and again.Beverley_C said:
I made exactly that point in another post down-threadanothernick said:And who "governs" the price of oil, climate change, giant tech companies, the terrorist threat etc etc etc? How can people in the UK exercise influence over these factors, which have far more impact on most of us than 95% of the laws passed by Westminster and the EU put together?
Thanks! 0 -
I agree 100%.OldKingCole said:
We should have had a vote over Lisbon. Almost Brown’s Iraq.welshowl said:
@OKC
The Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was the Rubicon.
We were promised a vote. It was reneged on. Blatantly. My belief in the good faith of our leaders on this went. We were being shoe horned whether we wanted it or not along the road the ever closer union.
I really wanted Cameron to pull the chestnuts out of the fire with a real renegotiation, but neither he nor any of the European leaders took it seriously. So having been denied any number of possibilities to be consulted on this over decades, in ways that would not have meant leaving, the one time we were was the nuclear option, which not many in power and comfort thought we'd take. Hence the trauma ever since, because deep down a lot of our political class going back decades realise they screwed up royally.0 -
We're all leavers now.AlastairMeeks said:I see we've reached the point where Leavers are blaming politicians for their own insanity.
0 -
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Horsemeat lasagne was illegal whereas the putative chlorinated chicken is not only legal but mustn't be discriminated against. Huge difference.RobD said:
Hm, which would you prefer, chlorinated chicken or horsemeat lasagne?FF43 said:
Brexit is about our freedom to eat chlorinated chicken. That's it. Everything else is downside.kyf_100 said:However, we are also taking back the ability to directly hire and fire the people who make the laws that govern us.
The very fact that Brexit is proving so difficult shows exactly how many powers were transferred, without any real form of consent, to what is at best a largely unaccountable bureacracy with very poor democratic checks and balances.
twitter.com/SkyNews/status/925754290290995200 0 -
Let us blame the EU for the UK govt failing to hold the promised referendum???welshowl said:
The Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was the Rubicon.
We were promised a vote. It was reneged on. Blatantly. My belief in the good faith of our leaders on this went. We were being shoe horned whether we wanted it or not along the road the ever closer union.0 -
@Sean_F Thanks for your reply in the previous thread. It looks like this issue has been going on for a very long time now, in all the mainstream political parties.0
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We should not take complex, multi-faceted decisions like this by referenda. Margaret Thatcher is alleged to have said that referenda were the tools of dictators and demagogues and she was right about that. The Germans, who have more reason than most to regret decisions taken by referenda, have a constitutional ban on them and we would be wise to follow their example.OldKingCole said:
We should have had a vote over Lisbon. Almost Brown’s Iraq.welshowl said:
@OKC
The Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was the Rubicon.
We were promised a vote. It was reneged on. Blatantly. My belief in the good faith of our leaders on this went. We were being shoe horned whether we wanted it or not along the road the ever closer union.
I really wanted Cameron to pull the chestnuts out of the fire with a real renegotiation, but neither he nor any of the European leaders took it seriously. So having been denied any number of possibilities to be consulted on this over decades, in ways that would not have meant leaving, the one time we were was the nuclear option, which not many in power and comfort thought we'd take. Hence the trauma ever since, because deep down a lot of our political class going back decades realise they screwed up royally.0 -
No I was blaming the UK Govt for not holding it.Beverley_C said:
Let us blame the EU for the UK govt failing to hold the promised referendum???welshowl said:
The Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was the Rubicon.
We were promised a vote. It was reneged on. Blatantly. My belief in the good faith of our leaders on this went. We were being shoe horned whether we wanted it or not along the road the ever closer union.
Had they I think it would've crashed and burnt so less extended QMV in all likelihood.
The fact the vote was not held in and of itself altered the prism through which many of us saw this issue. It crystallised our thoughts into a binary choice.0 -
Yeah but as freedom to eat chlorinated chicken is the only real upside of Brexit is it really worth the grief, pain and dislocation?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 43, didn't we used to have chlorinated chicken a few decades ago? It seems very much a 50/50 issue, to be honest.
0 -
Mr. Nick, would you have approved of the idea of a referendum over Lisbon?
There's a case to be made that the removal of powers (such as vetoes) from the politicians with whom we entrust power should require the assent of the electorate.
I do think some issues require a referendum to be settled legitimately. It was significantly unhelpful that both sides of the EU campaign managed to be almost uniformly dreadful.0 -
But if you don't have any mainstream party offering a particular option - i.e. leave the EU - then fringe or single issue parties rise in support - mainstream parties have to react to stay in power.anothernick said:
We should not take complex, multi-faceted decisions like this by referenda. Margaret Thatcher is alleged to have said that referenda were the tools of dictators and demagogues and she was right about that. The Germans, who have more reason than most to regret decisions taken by referenda, have a constitutional ban on them and we would be wise to follow their example.OldKingCole said:
We should have had a vote over Lisbon. Almost Brown’s Iraq.welshowl said:
@OKC
The Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was the Rubicon.
We were promised a vote. It was reneged on. Blatantly. My belief in the good faith of our leaders on this went. We were being shoe horned whether we wanted it or not along the road the ever closer union.
I really wanted Cameron to pull the chestnuts out of the fire with a real renegotiation, but neither he nor any of the European leaders took it seriously. So having been denied any number of possibilities to be consulted on this over decades, in ways that would not have meant leaving, the one time we were was the nuclear option, which not many in power and comfort thought we'd take. Hence the trauma ever since, because deep down a lot of our political class going back decades realise they screwed up royally.
See Kippers (remember them ? ) in Uk and various other parties accross the EU.
If there hadn't been a referendum offered who is to speculate how high kipper support would have risen ?0 -
Will the last person out of Hollywood please turn out the lights...0
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Mr. 43, I disagree with your caricature.0
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Thanks for explaining!welshowl said:
No I was blaming the UK Govt for not holding it.Beverley_C said:
Let us blame the EU for the UK govt failing to hold the promised referendum???welshowl said:
The Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was the Rubicon.
We were promised a vote. It was reneged on. Blatantly. My belief in the good faith of our leaders on this went. We were being shoe horned whether we wanted it or not along the road the ever closer union.
Had they I think it would've crashed and burnt so less extended QMV in all likelihood.
The fact the vote was not held in and of itself altered the prism through which many of us saw this issue. It crystallised our thoughts into a binary choice.0 -
While I agree, having, effectively, promised one and then not holding one gave us the worst of all worlds.anothernick said:
We should not take complex, multi-faceted decisions like this by referenda. Margaret Thatcher is alleged to have said that referenda were the tools of dictators and demagogues and she was right about that. The Germans, who have more reason than most to regret decisions taken by referenda, have a constitutional ban on them and we would be wise to follow their example.OldKingCole said:
We should have had a vote over Lisbon. Almost Brown’s Iraq.welshowl said:
@OKC
The Lisbon Treaty/Constitution was the Rubicon.
We were promised a vote. It was reneged on. Blatantly. My belief in the good faith of our leaders on this went. We were being shoe horned whether we wanted it or not along the road the ever closer union.
I really wanted Cameron to pull the chestnuts out of the fire with a real renegotiation, but neither he nor any of the European leaders took it seriously. So having been denied any number of possibilities to be consulted on this over decades, in ways that would not have meant leaving, the one time we were was the nuclear option, which not many in power and comfort thought we'd take. Hence the trauma ever since, because deep down a lot of our political class going back decades realise they screwed up royally.
Well, the worst until we got where we are now!
0 -
-
You're right about the caricature. We either do what we are told by the EU (while having some influence over those decisions) or we do what we are told by the EU and the US (and have no influence). Seriously, there is no real upside to Brexit that I can see.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 43, I disagree with your caricature.
0 -
Crush the saboteurs!TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Hurrah for Parliamentary sovereignty.0
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https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/925767788916027392TheScreamingEagles said:Hurrah for Parliamentary sovereignty.
0 -
Agreed, the next PM will almost certainly be a Tory even if Corbyn forms a government after the next general election (which on present polls he would with LD and SNP support). Corbyn is held in this market by being the only Labour contender against multiple Tories.0
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JRM is a member of the elite, Eton, Banker, and son of a newspaper editor.AlastairMeeks said:
Crush the saboteurs!TheScreamingEagles said:
Why is he giving succour to the EU and damage our negotiations ?0 -
Mr Dancer, I uploaded a video I took from the start of the Singapore GP in 2013, standing 100m from the start line and about 2m from the track. Noisy
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j51tm26vco7a43g/SG F1 Start.MOV?dl=00 -
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Surely the PM can just classify them as cabinet papers, or top secret?0
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There has always been stuff like this affecting our lives. It is an argument for co-operation and co-ordination, the precise nature of which people can debate.anothernick said:
Quite so. Such a good point that it's worth making again and again.Beverley_C said:
I made exactly that point in another post down-threadanothernick said:And who "governs" the price of oil, climate change, giant tech companies, the terrorist threat etc etc etc? How can people in the UK exercise influence over these factors, which have far more impact on most of us than 95% of the laws passed by Westminster and the EU put together?
It is not, though, an argument against democratic accountability.0 -
Mr. Sandpit, d'you get spectators wearing ear defenders?0
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Yup!Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Sandpit, d'you get spectators wearing ear defenders?
0 -
-
Would you trust MPs not to leak? I don'tRobD said:0 -
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James May did it as well, of course.Sandpit said:Give him the sack, or give him an award?
https://twitter.com/DailyMailUK/status/925751058856636416
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:JamesMayAutocar.jpg0 -
The respect for Parliamentary sovereignty among these Leavers is flaky. It's almost as if that isn't the real motivation of many Leavers.Sandpit said:
I’d have them marked TS and released completely redacted bar the title of each document.RobD said:Surely the PM can just classify them as cabinet papers, or top secret?
0 -
-
Indeed, no problem with people holding appropriate clearance on the committee being allowed to see them under Privy Council terms.RobD said:
But that’s not what Starmer wants.0 -
I cannot understand their obsession with importing chlorinated chicken. Surely they should be promoting healthy British chicken.AlastairMeeks said:
The respect for Parliamentary sovereignty among these Leavers is flaky. It's almost as if that isn't the real motivation of many Leavers.Sandpit said:
I’d have them marked TS and released completely redacted bar the title of each document.RobD said:Surely the PM can just classify them as cabinet papers, or top secret?
0 -
Exactly my point. People were effectively told that they could make 2+2 become 5 just by voting for it to happen. This was an exercise in deception, not an exercise in democracy.OldKingCole said:
While I agree, having, effectively, promised one and then not holding one gave us the worst of all worlds.
Well, the worst until we got where we are now!0 -
Some Quorn chicken for me, pleaseDecrepitJohnL said:
I cannot understand their obsession with importing chlorinated chicken. Surely they should be promoting healthy British chicken.AlastairMeeks said:
The respect for Parliamentary sovereignty among these Leavers is flaky. It's almost as if that isn't the real motivation of many Leavers.Sandpit said:
I’d have them marked TS and released completely redacted bar the title of each document.RobD said:Surely the PM can just classify them as cabinet papers, or top secret?
0 -
It is an utterly bonkers point; an important part of being sane lies in recognising that we don't have much control over most things, but still thinking that we should soldier on and control as much as we can. How do you rule out an extrapolation of your position to: I am going to die at some stage, I might get cancer tomorrow, the earth is going to be made uninhabitable by the dying sun in a couple of billion years, so I'm not going to get out of bed in the morning?Beverley_C said:anothernick said:
Quite so. Such a good point that it's worth making again and again.Beverley_C said:
I made exactly that point in another post down-threadanothernick said:And who "governs" the price of oil, climate change, giant tech companies, the terrorist threat etc etc etc? How can people in the UK exercise influence over these factors, which have far more impact on most of us than 95% of the laws passed by Westminster and the EU put together?
Thanks!0 -
JRM believes the risks of no deal are exaggerated 'like the millennium bug' and even May's 2 year transition period is not needed.TheScreamingEagles said:
JRM is a member of the elite, Eton, Banker, and son of a newspaper editor.AlastairMeeks said:
Crush the saboteurs!TheScreamingEagles said:
Why is he giving succour to the EU and damage our negotiations ?
http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/jacob-rees-mogg-to-vince-cable-no-deal-risks-are-o/://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/858131/Jacob-Rees-Mogg-May-transition-UK-Brexit0 -
Strategists will recognise the Empty Fortress Strategyin the government's approach to Brexit. China's most famous general attempted to hold a defenceless city against superior forces by opening the gates and partying on the walls. His opponents, knowing how crafty he was, suspected a trap and passed by the city, as Zhuge Liang knew they would do.
The flaw in this plan is that the EU know Brexit is empty and think May and Davis are deluded, not cunning.
Releasing the papers won't make the slightest difference to the negotiations with the EU. They may or may not make a difference to the government's ability to fool a part of the population.0 -
A very interesting article on "no deal or bad deal" from an Irish perspective:
https://twitter.com/kevinhorourke/status/925674476607598592
Well worth a read, whatever your Brexit leanings.
0 -
FF43 said:
Strategists will recognise the Empty Fortress Strategyin the government's approach to Brexit. China's most famous general attempted to hold a defenceless city against superior forces by opening the gates and partying on the walls. His opponents, knowing how crafty he was, suspected a trap and passed by the city, as Zhuge Liang knew they would do.
The flaw in this plan is that the EU know Brexit is empty and think May and Davis are deluded, not cunning.
Releasing the papers won't make the slightest difference to the negotiations with the EU. They may or may not make a difference to the government's ability to fool a part of the population.
Well if it will make no difference to the negotation, then they might as well be kept secret then.
0 -
Mr. 43, better zither than dither 0
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I think the Irish border issue will be finessed. The point is a valid one but it is likely to be resolved as a permanent border (and undesirable from the writer's POV). I read somewhere that the Irish question has been moved to round two of the Brexit talks - ie it will be tacked along with the transition period and future trading relationship and not with the preliminary issues of citizenship and money.AlastairMeeks said:A very interesting article on "no deal or bad deal" from an Irish perspective:
https://twitter.com/kevinhorourke/status/925674476607598592
Well worth a read, whatever your Brexit leanings.0 -
Twitter, so take with caution, but there are reports of a vehicle driven into people in Covent Garden.
Edited extra bit: conflicting reports of crash or terrorism.0 -
I do not rule out your extrapolation. I now live my life by the very principles you outline. Since, in the overall scheme of things, I will make no discernible difference, I might as well have a hell of a time and slide into my coffin bankrupt and worn out after enjoying everything the world has to offer. I am retiring later this month. I see no point in saving or working any harder than I have to.Ishmael_Z said:How do you rule out an extrapolation of your position to: I am going to die at some stage, I might get cancer tomorrow, the earth is going to be made uninhabitable by the dying sun in a couple of billion years, so I'm not going to get out of bed in the morning?
I cannot take it with me. There are no pockets in a shroud.0 -
Parliamentary sovereignty shall thankfully return on the day we leave the EU.AlastairMeeks said:
The respect for Parliamentary sovereignty among these Leavers is flaky. It's almost as if that isn't the real motivation of many Leavers.Sandpit said:
I’d have them marked TS and released completely redacted bar the title of each document.RobD said:Surely the PM can just classify them as cabinet papers, or top secret?
I’ve no objection at all with allowing the viewing of sensitive negotiation documents under Privy Council terms, but that’s not what Kier Starmer wants. He wants us to go into the most difficult and delicate negotiations in decades with all our cards face up on the table.0 -
Politicians will score points. For everyone else there is maybe value in knowing what's coming down the pike, so you canMarkHopkins said:FF43 said:Strategists will recognise the Empty Fortress Strategyin the government's approach to Brexit. China's most famous general attempted to hold a defenceless city against superior forces by opening the gates and partying on the walls. His opponents, knowing how crafty he was, suspected a trap and passed by the city, as Zhuge Liang knew they would do.
The flaw in this plan is that the EU know Brexit is empty and think May and Davis are deluded, not cunning.
Releasing the papers won't make the slightest difference to the negotiations with the EU. They may or may not make a difference to the government's ability to fool a part of the population.
Well if it will make no difference to the negotation, then they might as well be kept secret then.fleedo something about it.
Incidentally, Theresa May was asked at her last press conference, if it is so important for the government to prepare for a no deal, what would she say to businesses that might also want to prepare for a no deal by moving their operations away from the UK. She didn't answer.0 -
Healthy British Chicken raised to ethical standards - £5 per kg*DecrepitJohnL said:
I cannot understand their obsession with importing chlorinated chicken. Surely they should be promoting healthy British chicken.AlastairMeeks said:
The respect for Parliamentary sovereignty among these Leavers is flaky. It's almost as if that isn't the real motivation of many Leavers.Sandpit said:
I’d have them marked TS and released completely redacted bar the title of each document.RobD said:Surely the PM can just classify them as cabinet papers, or top secret?
American battery farmed, chlorinated chicken - £0.50p per kg*
Choose...
* Chicken can come up and well as go down and you may get your dinner back. Chicken may be variable in quality and represent a poor dietry investment as well as hormonal and anitbiotic boosts. Price shown are for illustration purposes only. Real outcome could be much worse. Salmonella and C Difficile only available on selected budget plans.0 -
I don't think he wants the UK to go into the negotiations at all....Sandpit said:
Parliamentary sovereignty shall thankfully return on the day we leave the EU.AlastairMeeks said:
The respect for Parliamentary sovereignty among these Leavers is flaky. It's almost as if that isn't the real motivation of many Leavers.Sandpit said:
I’d have them marked TS and released completely redacted bar the title of each document.RobD said:Surely the PM can just classify them as cabinet papers, or top secret?
I’ve no objection at all with allowing the viewing of sensitive negotiation documents under Privy Council terms, but that’s not what Kier Starmer wants. He wants us to go into the most difficult and delicate negotiations in decades with all our cards face up on the table.0 -
https://twitter.com/MPSWestminster/status/925775762115964928Morris_Dancer said:Twitter, so take with caution, but there are reports of a vehicle driven into people in Covent Garden.
Edited extra bit: conflicting reports of crash or terrorism.0 -
Have just seen photos, a friend from Twitter is there. Sounds like taxi has driven through a crowd sadly.Morris_Dancer said:Twitter, so take with caution, but there are reports of a vehicle driven into people in Covent Garden.
Edited extra bit: conflicting reports of crash or terrorism.0 -
Lord give me Parliamentary sovereignty, but not yet. The Augustinian Brexiteers strike.Sandpit said:
Parliamentary sovereignty shall thankfully return on the day we leave the EU.AlastairMeeks said:
The respect for Parliamentary sovereignty among these Leavers is flaky. It's almost as if that isn't the real motivation of many Leavers.Sandpit said:
I’d have them marked TS and released completely redacted bar the title of each document.RobD said:Surely the PM can just classify them as cabinet papers, or top secret?
I’ve no objection at all with allowing the viewing of sensitive negotiation documents under Privy Council terms, but that’s not what Kier Starmer wants. He wants us to go into the most difficult and delicate negotiations in decades with all our cards face up on the table.0 -
Further on that taxi incident, police saying it's not terror related.
Which reminds me, what happened regarding the other not terrorism taxi that hit people at a museum? Not heard anything about the chap being arrested/charged with dangerous driving.0 -
So why do you think JRM supports their publication?Sandpit said:
Parliamentary sovereignty shall thankfully return on the day we leave the EU.AlastairMeeks said:
The respect for Parliamentary sovereignty among these Leavers is flaky. It's almost as if that isn't the real motivation of many Leavers.Sandpit said:
I’d have them marked TS and released completely redacted bar the title of each document.RobD said:Surely the PM can just classify them as cabinet papers, or top secret?
I’ve no objection at all with allowing the viewing of sensitive negotiation documents under Privy Council terms, but that’s not what Kier Starmer wants. He wants us to go into the most difficult and delicate negotiations in decades with all our cards face up on the table.0 -
Google "2 sisters chicken" and/or listen to radio 4 Food Programme before getting overly excited about the superior quality of UK chicken. Also bear in mind that if you use mains water you are a chlorinated human.Beverley_C said:
Healthy British Chicken raised to ethical standards - £5 per kgDecrepitJohnL said:
I cannot understand their obsession with importing chlorinated chicken. Surely they should be promoting healthy British chicken.AlastairMeeks said:
The respect for Parliamentary sovereignty among these Leavers is flaky. It's almost as if that isn't the real motivation of many Leavers.Sandpit said:
I’d have them marked TS and released completely redacted bar the title of each document.RobD said:Surely the PM can just classify them as cabinet papers, or top secret?
American battery farmed, chlorinated chicken - £0.50p per kg
Choose...0 -
Genetically modified quorn chicken, maybe?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Some Quorn chicken for me, pleaseDecrepitJohnL said:
I cannot understand their obsession with importing chlorinated chicken. Surely they should be promoting healthy British chicken.AlastairMeeks said:
The respect for Parliamentary sovereignty among these Leavers is flaky. It's almost as if that isn't the real motivation of many Leavers.Sandpit said:
I’d have them marked TS and released completely redacted bar the title of each document.RobD said:Surely the PM can just classify them as cabinet papers, or top secret?
0 -
As noted upthread, JRM doesn't care if the negotiations crash and burn. He would be delighted with no dealTheScreamingEagles said:So why do you think JRM supports their publication?
0 -
Because he doesn't know what's in them, and he doesn't have to negotiate the settlement.TheScreamingEagles said:
So why do you think JRM supports their publication?Sandpit said:
Parliamentary sovereignty shall thankfully return on the day we leave the EU.AlastairMeeks said:
The respect for Parliamentary sovereignty among these Leavers is flaky. It's almost as if that isn't the real motivation of many Leavers.Sandpit said:
I’d have them marked TS and released completely redacted bar the title of each document.RobD said:Surely the PM can just classify them as cabinet papers, or top secret?
I’ve no objection at all with allowing the viewing of sensitive negotiation documents under Privy Council terms, but that’s not what Kier Starmer wants. He wants us to go into the most difficult and delicate negotiations in decades with all our cards face up on the table.0
