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Well of course it doesn’t matter how many boycott so long as you can act afterwards - see Pride’s Purge. (Granted, those were boycotted, rather than choosing to boycot)Scott_P said:@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
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I think viability is as good as any a place to start.Charles said:
I'm not sure whether we will ever reliably know if a foetus is self-aware. But for me viability is the logical place to draw the line (which is where I infer you are). That's probably earlier than 20 weeks, but not much - it should be an entirely objective judgement that is reviewed every few years by an independent bodyBeverley_C said:
This is where the ethics specialist and such like come in. Does a full grown woman who is fully self-aware and building her life have exactly the same rights as a foetus which may not be self-aware (if early in the process) or that cannot support itself outside of her womb?Charles said:
What about the rights of the child?SquareRoot said:
Which is why he will not be chosen. No woman should be forced into having a child as a result of rape..Richard_Tyndall said:I don't see him having a cat in hells chance of winning the leadership. For all that I like some of the things he stands for constitutionally, like Gove he would be electoral poison. If the Tories chose him he will perform even worse than IDS did in the polls.
It is a messy business and there are rarely any good answers0 -
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quicklyHYUFD said:
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.Scott_P said:@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
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Good choice to declare today Catalonia - that way any future holiday to commemorate will enable a three day weekend celebration.
In all seriousness, Madrid was about to suspend them and probably arrest a number of them too? So things were about to get even more disruptive regardless. best wishes to the people of any political stripe there right now, it’s in for a bumpy ride.0 -
I don't see how you can avoid relating it to Brexit. Last year an MP prominent in the Remain cause was killed a week before the referendum by someone shouting "Britain First" and the group behind this plot appears to be linked to that attack.Richard_Nabavi said:
It is indeed extremely troubling, and part of a wider and very worrying trend for MPs (especially women MPs) to be subject to severe abuse, physical harassment, and even violence or death threats.AlastairMeeks said:
This is extremely troubling. It's also very troubling that those on the Brexit right don't think it worthy of comment.YellowSubmarine said:
If you get a condemnation, it's of the "of course it's terrible" variety and then five minutes later the same people turn back to heaping odium on Remain supporters.
However, it's odd to relate it to Brexit. It's not new, and has been getting steadily worse for several years.0 -
My sympathies lie with the mother, but I think that any abortion should be as early as possible, partly because it may resolve some of the ethics issues (is a foetus with an as-yet undeveloped brain self-aware?) and partly because it is safer and easier for the mother and partly because she needs to feel that she has control of her life again as a step in her recovery.Charles said:
I'm not sure whether we will ever reliably know if a foetus is self-aware. But for me viability is the logical place to draw the line (which is where I infer you are). That's probably earlier than 20 weeks, but not much - it should be an entirely objective judgement that is reviewed every few years by an independent bodyBeverley_C said:
This is where the ethics specialist and such like come in. Does a full grown woman who is fully self-aware and building her life have exactly the same rights as a foetus which may not be self-aware (if early in the process) or that cannot support itself outside of her womb?Charles said:
What about the rights of the child?SquareRoot said:
Which is why he will not be chosen. No woman should be forced into having a child as a result of rape..Richard_Tyndall said:I don't see him having a cat in hells chance of winning the leadership. For all that I like some of the things he stands for constitutionally, like Gove he would be electoral poison. If the Tories chose him he will perform even worse than IDS did in the polls.
It is a messy business and there are rarely any good answers0 -
Picketty can be can be debunked in many ways, my faverat is he does not understand the interrelation between supply and demand, (on page 8 IIRC) he confuses a moving of the demand curve with a moving up and down the demand curve, i.e. the moving of the supply curve.rcs1000 said:
Picketty can be debunked in a single line:TGOHF said:
"Picketty claims to have never read Marx "Winstanley said:
'Picketty and Marxist economics' - some pretty fundamental differences between Picketty and Marxist economics, and Picketty claims to have never read Marx (https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2014/04/30/piketty-in-french-its-worse/).TGOHF said:Frankly I have a far bigger problem with a PM who believes in Picketty and Marxist economics than banning abortion.
For one there is no chance of an abortion ban law passing in the house.
http://mondediplo.com/2015/05/12piketty was a good critique of Picketty by a Marxist.
Both have been debunked furiously.
He assumes returns on capital employed are constant, and do not diminish as the amount of capital employed increases.
Sadly the effect of corrupting a generation of 'want to be inspired' mostly young idealists, is harder to larfe at
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Your father sounds fun.kle4 said:
My elderly father, who has voted all across the spectrum (including Con, green, OMRLP) has turned unto quite the Corbynista along with his latest wife - she is very much of the ‘hang the Tories’ vibe, so it was quite awkward at their place before the GE and I decided not to reveal I planned to vote Tory for the first time.Torby_Fennel said:A few days ago I had lunch with some of my older family members. My elderly grandad, a life-long Labour voter, was singing the praises of JRM... Other family members (more Conservative leaning) find him quite impressive too. I was the only person at the table who dislikes him... but I kept quiet. I've learned that family is the one arena it's best not to hold a political debate in.
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There is actually considerable overlap. The Charter of Fundamental Rights references the ECHR several times and at article 52(3) provides: "In so far as this Charter contains rights which correspond to rights guaranteed by the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, the meaning and scope of those rights shall be the same as those laid down by the said Convention. This provision shall not prevent Union law providing more extensive protection."FF43 said:
Our membership of the EU entails adherence to the Charter of Fundamental Rights regulated by the ECJ, which is a different charter from the Charter of Human Rights regulated by the European Court of Human Rights, There is no formal connection between the two, although there were moves to get the EU to sign up to the ECHR, which I think has been sytmied by the ECJ. So our leaving the EU should be neutral as far as our membership of the ECHR is concerned.DavidL said:Its not something I think we can meaningfully do prior to Brexit due to the current state of the Treaties. The ECtHR is occasionally very irritating (prisoners votes comes to mind) but the disruption withdrawing from it would cause is deeply unattractive.
The basic question is why would we want to remove ourselves from oversight on our government's respect for human rights when we are promoting human rights as an objective good. It's partly because of a small number of decisions from ECtHR that irritate us and mainly because of a misunderstanding deliberately promoted by parts of our media and the Conservative Party about what the ECtHR actually does.
So if we abolished the Human Rights Act at the moment it would come into our law through the EU anyway.0 -
Disappointing lack of hilarious posts about terrorists called Dave with mental problems.YellowSubmarine said:0 -
Certainly more fun than me.AlastairMeeks said:
Your father sounds fun.kle4 said:
My elderly father, who has voted all across the spectrum (including Con, green, OMRLP) has turned unto quite the Corbynista along with his latest wife - she is very much of the ‘hang the Tories’ vibe, so it was quite awkward at their place before the GE and I decided not to reveal I planned to vote Tory for the first time.Torby_Fennel said:A few days ago I had lunch with some of my older family members. My elderly grandad, a life-long Labour voter, was singing the praises of JRM... Other family members (more Conservative leaning) find him quite impressive too. I was the only person at the table who dislikes him... but I kept quiet. I've learned that family is the one arena it's best not to hold a political debate in.
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But future events and future prime ministers are not determined by betting markets. Mogg will almost certainly not be Tory leader -because of his views and overall image.0
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I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quicklyHYUFD said:
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.Scott_P said:@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?0 -
I don't think National Action is 'linked' to that attack, but some of the NA nutjobs have praised it, just at they have praised the Anders Breivik murders. They mainly seem to be motivated by anti-Jewish and anti-Muslim hate:AlastairMeeks said:I don't see how you can avoid relating it to Brexit. Last year an MP prominent in the Remain cause was killed a week before the referendum by someone shouting "Britain First" and the group behind this plot appears to be linked to that attack.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/uknews/2381165/national-action-neo-nazi-terror-group-banned-uk-jo-cox-killer-thomas-mair/
It seems to be most of all an offshoot from the most extreme elements of the BNP.
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Just imagine Holyrood voting for independence and Westminster voting to abolish it and impose direct rule and arrest Sturgeon and you will get an idea of what is about to happen in Catalonia.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quicklyHYUFD said:
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.Scott_P said:@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
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Never ever ever put yourself down on the internet. There will always be others queuing up to do that job.kle4 said:
Certainly more fun than me.AlastairMeeks said:
Your father sounds fun.kle4 said:
My elderly father, who has voted all across the spectrum (including Con, green, OMRLP) has turned unto quite the Corbynista along with his latest wife - she is very much of the ‘hang the Tories’ vibe, so it was quite awkward at their place before the GE and I decided not to reveal I planned to vote Tory for the first time.Torby_Fennel said:A few days ago I had lunch with some of my older family members. My elderly grandad, a life-long Labour voter, was singing the praises of JRM... Other family members (more Conservative leaning) find him quite impressive too. I was the only person at the table who dislikes him... but I kept quiet. I've learned that family is the one arena it's best not to hold a political debate in.
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JRM's idea to condemn (and potentially criminalise) victims of rape that have abortions is the issue.
History shows that abortions will happen regardless.0 -
Exactly - big storyHYUFD said:
Just imagine Holyrood voting for independence and Westminster voting to abolish it and impose direct rule and arrest Sturgeon and you will get an idea of what is about to happen in Catalonia.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quicklyHYUFD said:
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.Scott_P said:@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
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What is Cameron doing these days?Theuniondivvie said:
Disappointing lack of hilarious posts about terrorists called Dave with mental problems.YellowSubmarine said:0 -
Well it makes my life simpler.TOPPING said:
I'm sure the FCA has assured whoever will listen that you won't be able to fit a fag paper between what the EU decides is appropriate FinSec regulation, and the regs that the FCA implements. For now and ever more (as we are of a slightly religious flavour on here).TheScreamingEagles said:
Hurrah, we’re remaining in the single market.Scott_P said:
I actually dreamt about Brexit last night.
Dreaming about minimum capital adequacy levels was a new experience.
Professionally, I'll be glad when Brexit is over, it is close to occupying 99% of my day job.0 -
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's historyrpjs said:
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quicklyHYUFD said:
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.Scott_P said:@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?0 -
@Richard_Nabavi @AlastairMeeks My MP isn't doing preadvertised or public Surgeries citing security concerns. You can see her via appointment only and only at her office. She's been widely criticized for it though that's I suspect as much to do with poor presentation of the policy and the location of her office in a sprawling rural constituency. Of course this is not new in general terms. However we all know if Brown Terrorists had been charged with plotting the murder of an ex Services Tory MP how the would be covered in the media via a visit the second female Labour MP to be ( allegedly ) targeted by far right alleged terrorists in two years. We certainly won't be hearing calls for " the White community " to speak out and do more.0
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99% Brexit, 1% AV?TheScreamingEagles said:
Well it makes my life simpler.TOPPING said:
I'm sure the FCA has assured whoever will listen that you won't be able to fit a fag paper between what the EU decides is appropriate FinSec regulation, and the regs that the FCA implements. For now and ever more (as we are of a slightly religious flavour on here).TheScreamingEagles said:
Hurrah, we’re remaining in the single market.Scott_P said:
I actually dreamt about Brexit last night.
Dreaming about minimum capital adequacy levels was a new experience.
Professionally, I'll be glad when Brexit is over, it is close to occupying 99% of my day job.
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A little OTT - barely half the MPs voted for it. Massive opposition both within Catalonia and the rest of Spain. As ever Sky is getting carried away by the 'democracy of the crowd'.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Live on Sky - huge schism in Spain and boost to Independence movements throughout EuropeScott_P said:@ianbirrell: Seems like the #Catalan parliament has voted for independence. Spain plans to take direct control. Fasten your seatbelts
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But it is not viable without massive amounts of support, initially, and often long into their lives. It isn't 'naturally' viable.Charles said:
Yes - but the point is it is viable without the support of the mother, which is why it should have equal rights at that point as a human lifeJosiasJessop said:
A foetus at 20 weeks is 'viable' only with massive medical interventions, and babies born so early often have lifelong health problems and disabilities.Charles said:
I'm not sure whether we will ever reliably know if a foetus is self-aware. But for me viability is the logical place to draw the line (which is where I infer you are). That's probably earlier than 20 weeks, but not much - it should be an entirely objective judgement that is reviewed every few years by an independent bodyBeverley_C said:
This is where the ethics specialist and such like come in. Does a full grown woman who is fully self-aware and building her life have exactly the same rights as a foetus which may not be self-aware (if early in the process) or that cannot support itself outside of her womb?Charles said:
What about the rights of the child?SquareRoot said:
Which is why he will not be chosen. No woman should be forced into having a child as a result of rape..Richard_Tyndall said:I don't see him having a cat in hells chance of winning the leadership. For all that I like some of the things he stands for constitutionally, like Gove he would be electoral poison. If the Tories chose him he will perform even worse than IDS did in the polls.
It is a messy business and there are rarely any good answers
Personally I'd pick a time at which half of the babies can be expected to survive with minimal medical intervention and without long-term health problems.0 -
Do you deny this is a huge schism in Spainfelix said:
A little OTT - barely half the MPs voted for it. Massive opposition both within Catalonia and the rest of Spain. As ever Sky is getting carried away by the 'democracy of the crowd'.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Live on Sky - huge schism in Spain and boost to Independence movements throughout EuropeScott_P said:@ianbirrell: Seems like the #Catalan parliament has voted for independence. Spain plans to take direct control. Fasten your seatbelts
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In Mormonism, there is no definitive answer on when the spirit enters the body. Abortion is not considered equivalent to murder, but there is sufficient ambiguity over the foetus' status to warrant banning it (within the church) except in cases of rape, incest or threat to the mother's life. Even then it's not a decision to be taken lightly.Winstanley said:
If you believe an unborn child is a soul-endowed moral being in the full sense of the term, it's understandable why you'd oppose abortion across the board, even while having sympathy for the plight of the mother.Beverley_C said:
What about her viewpoint? Having to feel the child of her rapist moving within her every day? A reminder 24/7 for months of what was done to her. The impact on her career as she is forced to have time off for a pregnancy she does not want. The danger of medical complications that may stay with her for life - pregnancy is not risk free and women still die from childbirth.Richard_Nabavi said:
Or in her wish to commit infanticide on her new-born baby?MTimT said:Standing - the degree of personal stake in the issue. All citizens have a stake in Brexit or Sindy. What standing do I have to claim a personal stake in some stranger's abortion?
To be sure, the child is innocent but the child is a life-long reminder of a vicious, life-changing assault and with the world these days, the father might even claim visitation rights and another whole legal battle ensues.
This is a highly complex and life changing issue. In some instances, your life is in ruins for years afterwards - as well as recovering from the rape and the mental damage and trauma that causes.
If you believe it's just biological matter that is not yet a person in any meaningful sense, then abortion isn't a moral question regardless of the reasons the mother seeks one.
I find it more difficult to understand those who are against abortion except in cases like rape, than those who are consistent on this point tbh.
So there are coherent positions not at either extreme depending on theology0 -
What was she wearing?TheScreamingEagles said:TOPPING said:
I'm sure the FCA has assured whoever will listen that you won't be able to fit a fag paper between what the EU decides is appropriate FinSec regulation, and the regs that the FCA implements. For now and ever more (as we are of a slightly religious flavour on here).TheScreamingEagles said:
Hurrah, we’re remaining in the single market.Scott_P said:
Dreaming about minimum capital adequacy levels was a new experience.
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'Barely half’ is enough, surely. That’s what was enough here!felix said:
A little OTT - barely half the MPs voted for it. Massive opposition both within Catalonia and the rest of Spain. As ever Sky is getting carried away by the 'democracy of the crowd'.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Live on Sky - huge schism in Spain and boost to Independence movements throughout EuropeScott_P said:@ianbirrell: Seems like the #Catalan parliament has voted for independence. Spain plans to take direct control. Fasten your seatbelts
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I think you are confusing Brexit with PB. Having said, it is sometimes difficult to tell the two apartTheScreamingEagles said:
Professionally, I'll be glad when Brexit is over, it is close to occupying 99% of my day job.
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Surely that would be well over 30 weeks.JosiasJessop said:
But it is not viable without massive amounts of support, initially, and often long into their lives. It isn't 'naturally' viable.Charles said:
Yes - but the point is it is viable without the support of the mother, which is why it should have equal rights at that point as a human lifeJosiasJessop said:
A foetus at 20 weeks is 'viable' only with massive medical interventions, and babies born so early often have lifelong health problems and disabilities.Charles said:
I'm not sure whether we will ever reliably know if a foetus is self-aware. But for me viability is the logical place to draw the line (which is where I infer you are). That's probably earlier than 20 weeks, but not much - it should be an entirely objective judgement that is reviewed every few years by an independent bodyBeverley_C said:
This is where the ethics specialist and such like come in. Does a full grown woman who is fully self-aware and building her life have exactly the same rights as a foetus which may not be self-aware (if early in the process) or that cannot support itself outside of her womb?Charles said:
What about the rights of the child?SquareRoot said:
Which is why he will not be chosen. No woman should be forced into having a child as a result of rape..Richard_Tyndall said:I don't see him having a cat in hells chance of winning the leadership. For all that I like some of the things he stands for constitutionally, like Gove he would be electoral poison. If the Tories chose him he will perform even worse than IDS did in the polls.
It is a messy business and there are rarely any good answers
Personally I'd pick a time at which half of the babies can be expected to survive with minimal medical intervention and without long-term health problems.0 -
At best a little over a majority want to be independent, at worst a significant minority do, but it’s definitely a schism. Whether it is a boost is far less clear, to say the least.felix said:
A little OTT - barely half the MPs voted for it. Massive opposition both within Catalonia and the rest of Spain. As ever Sky is getting carried away by the 'democracy of the crowd'.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Live on Sky - huge schism in Spain and boost to Independence movements throughout EuropeScott_P said:@ianbirrell: Seems like the #Catalan parliament has voted for independence. Spain plans to take direct control. Fasten your seatbelts
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Jonathan said:
JRM's idea to condemn (and potentially criminalise) victims of rape that have abortions is the issue.
History shows that abortions will happen regardless.
And if you think about it from a woman's viewpoint it is obvious why... 0 -
The next Barcelona v Real Madrid match will be interestingOldKingCole said:
'Barely half’ is enough, surely. That’s what was enough here!felix said:
A little OTT - barely half the MPs voted for it. Massive opposition both within Catalonia and the rest of Spain. As ever Sky is getting carried away by the 'democracy of the crowd'.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Live on Sky - huge schism in Spain and boost to Independence movements throughout EuropeScott_P said:@ianbirrell: Seems like the #Catalan parliament has voted for independence. Spain plans to take direct control. Fasten your seatbelts
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@nickeardleybbc: Clear UK government won't recognise Catalan independence - but will be interesting to see Scottish Government reaction0
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Not as exciting as Catalonian independence but potentially significant, a Government Brexit minister has resigned:
https://twitter.com/benglaze/status/9239086235243929600 -
Wonder if Nicola will be the first to recognise the new Republic of Cataloniakle4 said:
At best a little over a majority want to be independent, at worst a significant minority do, but it’s definitely a schism. Whether it is a boost is far less clear, to say the least.felix said:
A little OTT - barely half the MPs voted for it. Massive opposition both within Catalonia and the rest of Spain. As ever Sky is getting carried away by the 'democracy of the crowd'.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Live on Sky - huge schism in Spain and boost to Independence movements throughout EuropeScott_P said:@ianbirrell: Seems like the #Catalan parliament has voted for independence. Spain plans to take direct control. Fasten your seatbelts
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Was she a swivel eyed loon or a saboteur?AlastairMeeks said:Not as exciting as Catalonian independence but potentially significant, a Government Brexit minister has resigned:
https://twitter.com/benglaze/status/9239086235243929600 -
Meanwhile...
@PickardJE: To lose one Dexeu minister bad: to lose David Jones, Lord Bridges, and now Baroness Anelay (as well as perm sec Olly Robbins) even worse.0 -
About as bloody as the Marseillaise.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's historyrpjs said:
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quicklyHYUFD said:
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.Scott_P said:@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.
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BBC says 10 MPs remained to vote against Catalan Independence and 2 abstentions. How do you abstain on an issue of such importance?0
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She was from planet Remainia. She has written a very graceful resignation article on Conservative Home:kle4 said:
Was she a swivel eyed loon or a saboteur?AlastairMeeks said:Not as exciting as Catalonian independence but potentially significant, a Government Brexit minister has resigned:
https://twitter.com/benglaze/status/923908623524392960
https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/10/joyce-anelay-a-farewell-to-ministerial-office.html?utm_campaign=twitter&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter0 -
Yes.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Do you deny this is a huge schism in Spainfelix said:
A little OTT - barely half the MPs voted for it. Massive opposition both within Catalonia and the rest of Spain. As ever Sky is getting carried away by the 'democracy of the crowd'.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Live on Sky - huge schism in Spain and boost to Independence movements throughout EuropeScott_P said:@ianbirrell: Seems like the #Catalan parliament has voted for independence. Spain plans to take direct control. Fasten your seatbelts
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You should add she has resigned over health issuesScott_P said:Meanwhile...
@PickardJE: To lose one Dexeu minister bad: to lose David Jones, Lord Bridges, and now Baroness Anelay (as well as perm sec Olly Robbins) even worse.0 -
Spain approves direct rule of Catalonia.
Imagine Westminster doing that over Scotland0 -
Spraxit ? Cataloxit ?
What we calling this ?0 -
Yes, quite possibly. It seems a perfectly logical position to take.tlg86 said:
Surely that would be well over 30 weeks.JosiasJessop said:
But it is not viable without massive amounts of support, initially, and often long into their lives. It isn't 'naturally' viable.Charles said:
Yes - but the point is it is viable without the support of the mother, which is why it should have equal rights at that point as a human lifeJosiasJessop said:
A foetus at 20 weeks is 'viable' only with massive medical interventions, and babies born so early often have lifelong health problems and disabilities.Charles said:
I'm not sure whether we will ever reliably know if a foetus is self-aware. But for me viability is the logical place to draw the line (which is where I infer you are). That's probably earlier than 20 weeks, but not much - it should be an entirely objective judgement that is reviewed every few years by an independent bodyBeverley_C said:
This is where the ethics specialist and such like come in. Does a full grown woman who is fully self-aware and building her life have exactly the same rights as a foetus which may not be self-aware (if early in the process) or that cannot support itself outside of her womb?Charles said:
What about the rights of the child?SquareRoot said:
Which is why he will not be chosen. No woman should be forced into having a child as a result of rape..Richard_Tyndall said:I don't see him having a cat in hells chance of winning the leadership. For all that I like some of the things he stands for constitutionally, like Gove he would be electoral poison. If the Tories chose him he will perform even worse than IDS did in the polls.
It is a messy business and there are rarely any good answers
Personally I'd pick a time at which half of the babies can be expected to survive with minimal medical intervention and without long-term health problems.0 -
Sprain.TGOHF said:Spraxit ? Cataloxit ?
What we calling this ?0 -
Absurd. We heard just over half of the Catalan MPs singing - all the rest had boycotted the vote. Of course it's a serious crisis but less than half of Catalonians support independence in all recent polls. This will end after a lot of huffing and puffing in some more devolved powers for Catalonia.geoffw said:
About as bloody as the Marseillaise.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's historyrpjs said:
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quicklyHYUFD said:
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.Scott_P said:@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.0 -
Easy. If you think declaring independence is ultra vires and unconstitutional boycotting the vote is the logical thing to do. Taking part legitimises it.kle4 said:BBC says 10 MPs remained to vote against Catalan Independence and 2 abstentions. How do you abstain on an issue of such importance?
0 -
0
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Very complacentfelix said:
Absurd. We heard just over half of the Catalan MPs singing - all the rest had boycotted the vote. Of course it's a serious crisis but less than half of Catalonians support independence in all recent polls. This will end after a lot of huffing and puffing in some more devolved powers for Catalonia.geoffw said:
About as bloody as the Marseillaise.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's historyrpjs said:
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quicklyHYUFD said:
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.Scott_P said:@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.0 -
Falling mainly on the cataplaneAlastairMeeks said:
Sprain.TGOHF said:Spraxit ? Cataloxit ?
What we calling this ? 0 -
Post of the dayAlastairMeeks said:
Sprain.TGOHF said:Spraxit ? Cataloxit ?
What we calling this ?0 -
Samuel Romilly?rcs1000 said:
He said he opposed the indiscriminate use of the death penalty.Theuniondivvie said:
I may have misheard but I'm sure JRM said he opposed capital punishment on last night's QT?Chris_A said:Of course he's not very pro-life when it comes to capital punishment. He seems to pick and choose which of the Holy Father's pronouncements to adhere to. He's an idiot and the fact that he's being discussed at all shows the state of the modern Tory party and the loopiness of its members.
(Five points for who can identify which politician did actually say that.)0 -
@SkyNewsBreak: Reuters: the Spanish senate has approved the imposition of direct rule on Catalonia0
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What about Northern Ireland atm?Big_G_NorthWales said:Spain approves direct rule of Catalonia.
Imagine Westminster doing that over Scotland
0 -
That’s a very nice resignation article indeed.AlastairMeeks said:
She was from planet Remainia. She has written a very graceful resignation article on Conservative Home:kle4 said:
Was she a swivel eyed loon or a saboteur?AlastairMeeks said:Not as exciting as Catalonian independence but potentially significant, a Government Brexit minister has resigned:
https://twitter.com/benglaze/status/923908623524392960
https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/10/joyce-anelay-a-farewell-to-ministerial-office.html?utm_campaign=twitter&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter
Sounds like a retirement due to health reasons, rather than anything to do with the department.0 -
You misunderstand - boycotting makes sense to me. But abstaining is not boycotting (it counts as being present). Most of those opposed to indy left, 10 who opposed it (or at least the declaration) voted against, but 2 stayed in the room but didn’t vote either way. They still took part, they just expressed no view.YellowSubmarine said:
Easy. If you think declaring independence is ultra vires and unconstitutional boycotting the vote is the logical thing to do. Taking part legitimises it.kle4 said:BBC says 10 MPs remained to vote against Catalan Independence and 2 abstentions. How do you abstain on an issue of such importance?
If they didn’t want to boycott, and they didn’t as they stayed in the room, why not express a vote? I’m curious if they are nominal supporters of indy, but not in this way, or opponents of indy who didn’t want to let the vote happen without them, but didn’t want to dignify the declaration with an actual decision, or what?0 -
Come on @rcs1000 - we haven't had your usual 2p on this subject...JosiasJessop said:
Yes, quite possibly. It seems a perfectly logical position to take.tlg86 said:
Surely that would be well over 30 weeks.JosiasJessop said:But it is not viable without massive amounts of support, initially, and often long into their lives. It isn't 'naturally' viable.
Personally I'd pick a time at which half of the babies can be expected to survive with minimal medical intervention and without long-term health problems.0 -
Good ! But don't sprain's heal ?AlastairMeeks said:
Sprain.TGOHF said:Spraxit ? Cataloxit ?
What we calling this ?
0 -
Well this one might too.TGOHF said:
Good ! But don't sprain's heal ?AlastairMeeks said:
Sprain.TGOHF said:Spraxit ? Cataloxit ?
What we calling this ?
0 -
I live in Spain which helps in this case but either way it's always a good idea these days not to get over-excited by soundbites for the 24 hours news channels. even most of the pro-independence rebels anticipate pretty much what I posted.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Very complacentfelix said:
Absurd. We heard just over half of the Catalan MPs singing - all the rest had boycotted the vote. Of course it's a serious crisis but less than half of Catalonians support independence in all recent polls. This will end after a lot of huffing and puffing in some more devolved powers for Catalonia.geoffw said:
About as bloody as the Marseillaise.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's historyrpjs said:
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quicklyHYUFD said:
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.Scott_P said:@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.0 -
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.0 -
I suspect the abstainers probably wanted dialogue about more powers for Catalonia short of independence.kle4 said:
You misunderstand - boycotting makes sense to me. But abstaining is not boycotting (it counts as being present). Most of those opposed to indy left, 10 who opposed it (or at least the declaration) voted against, but 2 stayed in the room but didn’t vote either way. They still took part, they just expressed no view.YellowSubmarine said:
Easy. If you think declaring independence is ultra vires and unconstitutional boycotting the vote is the logical thing to do. Taking part legitimises it.kle4 said:BBC says 10 MPs remained to vote against Catalan Independence and 2 abstentions. How do you abstain on an issue of such importance?
If they didn’t want to boycott, and they didn’t as they stayed in the room, why not express a vote? I’m curious if they are nominal supporters of indy, but not in this way, or opponents of indy who didn’t want to let the vote happen without them, but didn’t want to dignify the declaration with an actual decision, or what?0 -
The people of somaliland can tell us all about unrecognised UDIs. And they can actually control their territory.0
-
The Spanish army are going to run up some overtime.TGOHF said:Spraxit ? Cataloxit ?
What we calling this ?
A Catatonic for the Troops?0 -
According to Wikipedia it's one of only four lyric-less national anthems, along with those of Bosnia, Kosovo and San Marino, and it's fairly obvious why the first two of those don't have lyrics. I had thought that Japan's didn't either but apparently I am wrong.geoffw said:
About as bloody as the Marseillaise.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's historyrpjs said:
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quicklyHYUFD said:
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.Scott_P said:@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.0 -
CNN now calling it a real crisisfelix said:
I live in Spain which helps in this case but either way it's always a good idea these days not to get over-excited by soundbites for the 24 hours news channels. even most of the pro-independence rebels anticipate pretty much what I posted.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Very complacentfelix said:
Absurd. We heard just over half of the Catalan MPs singing - all the rest had boycotted the vote. Of course it's a serious crisis but less than half of Catalonians support independence in all recent polls. This will end after a lot of huffing and puffing in some more devolved powers for Catalonia.geoffw said:
About as bloody as the Marseillaise.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's historyrpjs said:
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quicklyHYUFD said:
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.Scott_P said:@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.0 -
A very interesting shift of tone from Donald Tusk:
https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/9239148196312719360 -
Catalysis.TGOHF said:Spraxit ? Cataloxit ?
What we calling this ?
(Since "Lysis" In Greek means "separation")0 -
AbsolutelyCopperSulphate said:The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.0 -
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.CopperSulphate said:The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.0 -
On topic, when I was at school I remember there was a debate on abortion with different views on it and no "right and wrong answer".
Since then it has been decided (no idea by whom) what the correct answer is and everyone with a valid but different opinion is branded a nutjob.
The problem is there are still millions of people with these views, so each time someone calls them a bunch of lunatics then they come across as complete arseholes.
JRM already said it is a personal matter and he won't impose his views on anyone else so what exactly is the problem to the wanky thought police?0 -
Mucho complaciente.felix said:
I live in Spain which helps in this case but either way it's always a good idea these days not to get over-excited by soundbites for the 24 hours news channels. even most of the pro-independence rebels anticipate pretty much what I posted.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Very complacentfelix said:
Absurd. We heard just over half of the Catalan MPs singing - all the rest had boycotted the vote. Of course it's a serious crisis but less than half of Catalonians support independence in all recent polls. This will end after a lot of huffing and puffing in some more devolved powers for Catalonia.geoffw said:
About as bloody as the Marseillaise.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's historyrpjs said:
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quicklyHYUFD said:
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.Scott_P said:@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.
0 -
The positive side of social media:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-lancashire-41771010/hundreds-attend-veteran-s-funeral-in-accrington-after-appeal0 -
I think 'muy complaciente' is the phrase you're looking for!geoffw said:
Mucho complaciente.felix said:
I live in Spain which helps in this case but either way it's always a good idea these days not to get over-excited by soundbites for the 24 hours news channels. even most of the pro-independence rebels anticipate pretty much what I posted.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Very complacentfelix said:
Absurd. We heard just over half of the Catalan MPs singing - all the rest had boycotted the vote. Of course it's a serious crisis but less than half of Catalonians support independence in all recent polls. This will end after a lot of huffing and puffing in some more devolved powers for Catalonia.geoffw said:
About as bloody as the Marseillaise.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's historyrpjs said:
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quicklyHYUFD said:
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.Scott_P said:@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud. 0 -
Catalonia President now Live on Sky0
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Catalida?0
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So she jumped out of a helicopter in mid air without checking whether there was anything in place for a safe landing?Sandpit said:
That’s a very nice resignation article indeed.AlastairMeeks said:
She was from planet Remainia. She has written a very graceful resignation article on Conservative Home:kle4 said:
Was she a swivel eyed loon or a saboteur?AlastairMeeks said:Not as exciting as Catalonian independence but potentially significant, a Government Brexit minister has resigned:
https://twitter.com/benglaze/status/923908623524392960
https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/10/joyce-anelay-a-farewell-to-ministerial-office.html?utm_campaign=twitter&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter
Sounds like a retirement due to health reasons, rather than anything to do with the department.
Sounds like the perfect CV to be a Brexit minister to me.0 -
Democratically elected Head of State too.kle4 said:The people of somaliland can tell us all about unrecognised UDIs. And they can actually control their territory.
0 -
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.felix said:
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.CopperSulphate said:The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.0 -
Lol - CNN - whatever next.Big_G_NorthWales said:
CNN now calling it a real crisisfelix said:
I live in Spain which helps in this case but either way it's always a good idea these days not to get over-excited by soundbites for the 24 hours news channels. even most of the pro-independence rebels anticipate pretty much what I posted.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Very complacentfelix said:
Absurd. We heard just over half of the Catalan MPs singing - all the rest had boycotted the vote. Of course it's a serious crisis but less than half of Catalonians support independence in all recent polls. This will end after a lot of huffing and puffing in some more devolved powers for Catalonia.geoffw said:
About as bloody as the Marseillaise.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's historyrpjs said:
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quicklyHYUFD said:
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.Scott_P said:@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.0 -
World wide story and coveragefelix said:
Lol - CNN - whatever next.Big_G_NorthWales said:
CNN now calling it a real crisisfelix said:
I live in Spain which helps in this case but either way it's always a good idea these days not to get over-excited by soundbites for the 24 hours news channels. even most of the pro-independence rebels anticipate pretty much what I posted.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Very complacentfelix said:
Absurd. We heard just over half of the Catalan MPs singing - all the rest had boycotted the vote. Of course it's a serious crisis but less than half of Catalonians support independence in all recent polls. This will end after a lot of huffing and puffing in some more devolved powers for Catalonia.geoffw said:
About as bloody as the Marseillaise.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's historyrpjs said:
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quicklyHYUFD said:
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.Scott_P said:@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.0 -
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.CopperSulphate said:
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.felix said:
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.CopperSulphate said:The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.0 -
¡Muchas gracias! Muy gracioso.felix said:
I think 'muy complaciente' is the phrase you're looking for!geoffw said:
Mucho complaciente.felix said:
I live in Spain which helps in this case but either way it's always a good idea these days not to get over-excited by soundbites for the 24 hours news channels. even most of the pro-independence rebels anticipate pretty much what I posted.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Very complacentfelix said:
Absurd. We heard just over half of the Catalan MPs singing - all the rest had boycotted the vote. Of course it's a serious crisis but less than half of Catalonians support independence in all recent polls. This will end after a lot of huffing and puffing in some more devolved powers for Catalonia.geoffw said:
About as bloody as the Marseillaise.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's historyrpjs said:
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quicklyHYUFD said:
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.Scott_P said:@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.
0 -
Weinstein effect about to hit:
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/10/pervert-politicians-why-weinstein-effect-could-hit-westminster-hardest0 -
Good afternoon, everyone.
There is a Catalan saying:
Eat well. Shit hard.
On-topic: if Corbyn goes for it the next PM could be a man who marched with banners of a genocidal dictator and who described himself as a friend of Hamas and Hezbollah, who throw people from rooftops for being homosexual.0 -
The rule of law is just what they decide it is, many laws have been unjust throughout history.felix said:
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.CopperSulphate said:
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.felix said:
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.CopperSulphate said:The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
They could easily have changed the law to allow a legal referendum as asked for by the Catalonian parliament, but they decided not to which has created this situation.0 -
It's been in the news for weeks. Get over yourself. What matters now are the reactions of the Spanish people as a whole, the national politicians, the EU and European countries.Big_G_NorthWales said:
World wide story and coveragefelix said:
Lol - CNN - whatever next.Big_G_NorthWales said:
CNN now calling it a real crisisfelix said:
I live in Spain which helps in this case but either way it's always a good idea these days not to get over-excited by soundbites for the 24 hours news channels. even most of the pro-independence rebels anticipate pretty much what I posted.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Very complacentfelix said:
Absurd. We heard just over half of the Catalan MPs singing - all the rest had boycotted the vote. Of course it's a serious crisis but less than half of Catalonians support independence in all recent polls. This will end after a lot of huffing and puffing in some more devolved powers for Catalonia.geoffw said:
About as bloody as the Marseillaise.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's historyrpjs said:
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quicklyHYUFD said:
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.Scott_P said:@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.0 -
Injured in the Brexit car crash by a helicopter.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You should add she has resigned over health issuesScott_P said:Meanwhile...
@PickardJE: To lose one Dexeu minister bad: to lose David Jones, Lord Bridges, and now Baroness Anelay (as well as perm sec Olly Robbins) even worse.0 -
Sounds like there is a case for having Parliament deal with HR stuff.rottenborough said:Weinstein effect about to hit:
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/10/pervert-politicians-why-weinstein-effect-could-hit-westminster-hardest0 -
No doubt something like that will happen after the furore that is likely to follow Sunday's papers.RobD said:
Sounds like there is a case for having Parliament deal with HR stuff.rottenborough said:Weinstein effect about to hit:
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/10/pervert-politicians-why-weinstein-effect-could-hit-westminster-hardest
Cabinet minister to go?0 -
Speculation? Or we expect dirt on one?rottenborough said:
No doubt something like that will happen after the furore that is likely to follow Sunday's papers.RobD said:
Sounds like there is a case for having Parliament deal with HR stuff.rottenborough said:Weinstein effect about to hit:
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/10/pervert-politicians-why-weinstein-effect-could-hit-westminster-hardest
Cabinet minister to go?
(No naming names, obviously).0 -
Extraordinary to see western democracy eating itself in Spain at the moment.0
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'It's been in the news for weeks. Get over yourself. What matters now are the reactions of the Spanish people as a whole, the national politicians, the EU and European countries'
What matters now is how Spain reacts. They need to offer a legitimate referendum to Catalonia as David Cameron did for Scotland. Anything less will be a disaster for Spain and self determination of peoples0 -
Well, perhaps we should enact a law making Gibraltar a part of the United Kingdom in perpetuity and see just how deeply principled the Spanish government’s position is.felix said:
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.CopperSulphate said:
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.felix said:
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.CopperSulphate said:The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.0
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