politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Once again Britain is split down the middle on Brexit while Yo
Comments
-
There was clearly a Liberal Unionist party - Hartington's followers. It's where the "and Unionist" comes from in the original "Conservative and Unionist Party".stodge said:
If you're going to argue political history with me, you're going to have to do much better than that.ydoethur said:
No, Stodge, he was a Conservative 1900-1903, a Liberal 1903-22 on the Lloyd George wing from 1916-22 (in theory again briefly in 23) an Independent 1922-25 and a Conservative from then on. He was never at any stage a Liberal Unionist or a Liberal National although in 1902 he toyed with the idea of joining a party led by Devonshire if Rosebery and Asquith would join too. That never happened so he defected instead.
Neville Chamberlain, of course, was a Liberal Unionist and refused to be called a Conservative (in the 1929 election he still used 'Unionist' and thereafter 'National') but not Churchill.
Also there could be questions asked about our lack of great power status simply because the US abdicated the responsibility they should have taken up. But that's a long conversation I have no energy for.
Agree with the rest.
Good night.
I never said he was a member of a party called Liberal Unionist, there was no such party. If you prefer, he was a liberal unionist. He was so much a loyal Conservative the party tried to de-select him in his Wanstead & Woodford seat before the war.
He was also supposedly going to join a King's Party to fight for Edward VIII to continue on the throne.
Churchill was a Liberal Unionist - he happened to be in the Conservative Party and fortunately for us all was in the right place at the right time when the Conservative appeasers ran out of time and support in the spring of 1940.
They still had senior ministers until the 1990s - Hurd and Mayhew (and Hailsham until 87) plus a lot of the money.0 -
They own the system and decide who gets access to it and on what terms. They are certainly not interested in replicating the system for us on a bilateral basis just because we dislike their membership. The EU is a multilateral body, bit we don't like their multilateralism if it excludes us.MarkHopkins said:FF43 said:
If the employee still wanted a relationship with you, yes. Which is where we are with Brexit. If we are happy to be a Tokugawa "closed country" it would be simpler. But we are supposed to be"Britain open for business" and if that means anything we have to deal with the world we live in. Above all we have to deal with the EU.Sean_F said:
But, would I, the employer be making demands of the ex -employee.OchEye said:Let's see now, if you, the atypical PB employer had an employee come up to you, and told you they were leaving but wanted to discuss the terms and conditions of their resignation, then you would probably suggest that they depart immediately, any outstanding pay or request for the return of excess will be forwarded, as per the contract signed in good faith by both sides. The employee, no matter how senior or junior they may be has no right to try and dictate how the organisation operates.
We were not even a good member of the community, we refused to take part in many things, we were always moaning and trying to change things to our own benefit and no one else.
Then why do so many believe that just because we are British, the other EU27 should dance to our tune?
We would be happy to have an economic/business settlement with them. They don't want one. They want political control.0 -
Gary lost his dad this week, and started life very modestly. He certainly has done well for himself but is hardly an out of touch person.ReggieCide said:
please, please, please, .... pretty, pretty pleaseAlanbrooke said:
make Gary Lineker live in Merthyr Tydfilfoxinsoxuk said:
Could you please elaborate on how a Tory government post Brexit will redistribute the nations wealth away from London and the South East and towards the poorest people of Britain, and particularly in communities like the NE England or S Wales?Mortimer said:
What a partisan response to a non partisan point. A shame.Monksfield said:
My irony meter just explodes off the scale every time a partisan Tory starts talking about the need for redistribution.Mortimer said:
Brexit is the assertion by the majority* that the current social settlement isn't working for them, and the demand that their political servants become more accountable and thus responsive to their needs.Gardenwalker said:
Indeed. The arguments for Brexit have collapsed. The only thing left is "well, we voted for it".nichomar said:I wish I could have such unwavering beief in a viewpoit that some leavers have. Their desire to leave is beyond question and yet I have still not seen an argument that tells how in the short or medium term it will make "things better". They treat people who try to explain their concerns with disdain and contempt.
I know Remainers are guilty of a world of guff too, but I search in vain for a confident articulation of Brexit today.
As with pretty much all constitutional reform in this country, it is a perfect demonstration of the error correction inherent within our system that puts elites on notice that the spoils of the day (be they power, money, culture) need to be more evenly shared and not become ever more remote.
*who could be bothered to vote, which in my mind is significant
In what way is this different to Corbynism?0 -
That's about my thoughts as well.Alanbrooke said:
@Gardenwalker
thread getting too long so reposted
In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.
Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.
I moved becasue
- I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
- I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
- I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
- the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in
I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so
I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.
The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them
The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of
I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,
It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.
I would add that we needed to change from the rising house prices, falling home ownership, record current account deficit, ever increasing wealth consumption model of society.0 -
Macron is fast turning out to be better entertainment value than Trump
he's going to build a new world order with France as a great power
https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article168119944/Es-ist-unsere-Pflicht-eine-neue-Weltordnung-aufzubauen.html
hope that still looks good when the airports go on strike0 -
Churchill's political positions were very reactionary and poorly received for nearly all his career, apart from a brief period in the early forties.stodge said:
If you're going to argue political history with me, you're going to have to do much better than that.ydoethur said:
No, Stodge, he was a Conservative 1900-1903, a Liberal 1903-22 on the Lloyd George wing from 1916-22 (in theory again briefly in 23) an Independent 1922-25 and a Conservative from then on. He was never at any stage a Liberal Unionist or a Liberal National although in 1902 he toyed with the idea of joining a party led by Devonshire if Rosebery and Asquith would join too. That never happened so he defected instead.
Neville Chamberlain, of course, was a Liberal Unionist and refused to be called a Conservative (in the 1929 election he still used 'Unionist' and thereafter 'National') but not Churchill.
Also there could be questions asked about our lack of great power status simply because the US abdicated the responsibility they should have taken up. But that's a long conversation I have no energy for.
Agree with the rest.
Good night.
I never said he was a member of a party called Liberal Unionist, there was no such party. If you prefer, he was a liberal unionist. He was so much a loyal Conservative the party tried to de-select him in his Wanstead & Woodford seat before the war.
He was also supposedly going to join a King's Party to fight for Edward VIII to continue on the throne.
Churchill was a Liberal Unionist - he happened to be in the Conservative Party and fortunately for us all was in the right place at the right time when the Conservative appeasers ran out of time and support in the spring of 1940.0 -
Of course the problem is that the analogy is rubbish. We were not an employee of the EU, we were supposedly an equal partner, though in fact that was an illusion. We are leaving taking with us a significant portion of the businesses capital and customers. We are also taking some key assets and specialists which the rest of the company rely upon. Many of the remaining partners face significant difficulties if the board decide not to deal with us in a manner to our mutual benefit.FF43 said:
If the employee still wanted a relationship with you, yes. Which is where we are with Brexit. If we are happy to be a Tokugawa "closed country" it would be simpler. But we are supposed to be"Britain open for business" and if that means anything we have to deal with the world we live in. Above all we have to deal with the EU.Sean_F said:
But, would I, the employer be making demands of the ex -employee.OchEye said:Let's see now, if you, the atypical PB employer had an employee come up to you, and told you they were leaving but wanted to discuss the terms and conditions of their resignation, then you would probably suggest that they depart immediately, any outstanding pay or request for the return of excess will be forwarded, as per the contract signed in good faith by both sides. The employee, no matter how senior or junior they may be has no right to try and dictate how the organisation operates.
We were not even a good member of the community, we refused to take part in many things, we were always moaning and trying to change things to our own benefit and no one else.
Then why do so many believe that just because we are British, the other EU27 should dance to our tune?
That is not to say they will not choose that course but it will ultimately be to their detriment as well as ours.0 -
There was a Liberal Unionist party, till 1912, but Churchill was not sympathetic to it. Post 1912, people ran as Liberal Unionist, Unionist, in Scotland, while taking the Conservative whip.stodge said:
If you're going to argue political history with me, you're going to have to do much better than that.ydoethur said:
No, Stodge, he was a Conservative 1900-1903, a Liberal 1903-22 on the Lloyd George wing from 1916-22 (in theory again briefly in 23) an Independent 1922-25 and a Conservative from then on. He was never at any stage a Liberal Unionist or a Liberal National although in 1902 he toyed with the idea of joining a party led by Devonshire if Rosebery and Asquith would join too. That never happened so he defected instead.
Neville Chamberlain, of course, was a Liberal Unionist and refused to be called a Conservative (in the 1929 election he still used 'Unionist' and thereafter 'National') but not Churchill.
Also there could be questions asked about our lack of great power status simply because the US abdicated the responsibility they should have taken up. But that's a long conversation I have no energy for.
Agree with the rest.
Good night.
I never said he was a member of a party called Liberal Unionist, there was no such party. If you prefer, he was a liberal unionist. He was so much a loyal Conservative the party tried to de-select him in his Wanstead & Woodford seat before the war.
He was also supposedly going to join a King's Party to fight for Edward VIII to continue on the throne.
Churchill was a Liberal Unionist - he happened to be in the Conservative Party and fortunately for us all was in the right place at the right time when the Conservative appeasers ran out of time and support in the spring of 1940.0 -
That's fine - in that case there are no exit liabilities and we get our assets back. Short sighted of them thoughFF43 said:
They own the system and decide who gets access to it and on what terms. They are certainly not interested in replicating the system for us on a bilateral basis just because we dislike their membership. The EU is a multilateral body, bit we don't like their multilateralism if it excludes us.MarkHopkins said:FF43 said:
If the employee still wanted a relationship with you, yes. Which is where we are with Brexit. If we are happy to be a Tokugawa "closed country" it would be simpler. But we are supposed to be"Britain open for business" and if that means anything we have to deal with the world we live in. Above all we have to deal with the EU.Sean_F said:
But, would I, the employer be making demands of the ex -employee.OchEye said:Let's see now, if you, the atypical PB employer had an employee come up to you, and told you they were leaving but wanted to discuss the terms and conditions of their resignation, then you would probably suggest that they depart immediately, any outstanding pay or request for the return of excess will be forwarded, as per the contract signed in good faith by both sides. The employee, no matter how senior or junior they may be has no right to try and dictate how the organisation operates.
We were not even a good member of the community, we refused to take part in many things, we were always moaning and trying to change things to our own benefit and no one else.
Then why do so many believe that just because we are British, the other EU27 should dance to our tune?
We would be happy to have an economic/business settlement with them. They don't want one. They want political control.0 -
Its all a bit bizarre in South Yorkshire - lots of houses, shops and industrial units are being built.Alanbrooke said:
Hows that Northern Powerhouse going ?another_richard said:My thanks to AndyJS for putting up the Betfair cricket odds on Sunday.
I expect it's all built now
Now I can understand the houses but there's already no shortage of retail and industrial units which have 'To Let' signs on them.
So we're either going to have an economic boom along the M18 or we're in the later stages of a property speculation bubble.0 -
Brexit looks increasingly unlikely. Bet the EU is buy baking us a humble pie.0
-
http://www.businessweekly.co.uk/news/engineering/construction-milestone-rrs-sir-david-attenborough - I like the idea “By investing in UK shipyards, and encouraging shipyards to work together, the UK can dramatically ramp up the number of ships it builds, converts and repairs, for the commercial and naval sectors at home and abroad."0
-
"British negotiators said to have asked EU officials about legal principles Brussels believes should be used to calculate exit bill" - awkward.0
-
PAW said:
"British negotiators said to have asked EU officials about legal principles Brussels believes should be used to calculate exit bill" - awkward.
"Because we said so".
0 -
No exit bill for sure. Good luck with the assets, though. And the economy.Charles said:
That's fine - in that case there are no exit liabilities and we get our assets back. Short sighted of them thoughFF43 said:
They own the system and decide who gets access to it and on what terms. They are certainly not interested in replicating the system for us on a bilateral basis just because we dislike their membership. The EU is a multilateral body, bit we don't like their multilateralism if it excludes us.MarkHopkins said:FF43 said:
If the employee still wanted a relationship with you, yes. Which is where we are with Brexit. If we are happy to be a Tokugawa "closed country" it would be simpler. But we are supposed to be"Britain open for business" and if that means anything we have to deal with the world we live in. Above all we have to deal with the EU.Sean_F said:
But, would I, the employer be making demands of the ex -employee.OchEye said:Let's see now, if you, the atypical PB employer had an employee come up to you, and told you they were leaving but wanted to discuss the terms and conditions of their resignation, then you would probably suggest that they depart immediately, any outstanding pay or request for the return of excess will be forwarded, as per the contract signed in good faith by both sides. The employee, no matter how senior or junior they may be has no right to try and dictate how the organisation operates.
We were not even a good member of the community, we refused to take part in many things, we were always moaning and trying to change things to our own benefit and no one else.
Then why do so many believe that just because we are British, the other EU27 should dance to our tune?
We would be happy to have an economic/business settlement with them. They don't want one. They want political control.
0 -
Juncker said that request wasn't constructive as there were to be no detailed discussions until we'd agreed the amount...MarkHopkins said:PAW said:"British negotiators said to have asked EU officials about legal principles Brussels believes should be used to calculate exit bill" - awkward.
"Because we said so".0 -
Yep. But we suffer the most - having been promised sunlit uplands and increased prosperity.Richard_Tyndall said:
Of course the problem is that the analogy is rubbish. We were not an employee of the EU, we were supposedly an equal partner, though in fact that was an illusion. We are leaving taking with us a significant portion of the businesses capital and customers. We are also taking some key assets and specialists which the rest of the company rely upon. Many of the remaining partners face significant difficulties if the board decide not to deal with us in a manner to our mutual benefit.FF43 said:
If the employee still wanted a relationship with you, yes. Which is where we are with Brexit. If we are happy to be a Tokugawa "closed country" it would be simpler. But we are supposed to be"Britain open for business" and if that means anything we have to deal with the world we live in. Above all we have to deal with the EU.Sean_F said:
But, would I, the employer be making demands of the ex -employee.OchEye said:Let's see now, if you, the atypical PB employer had an employee come up to you, and told you they were leaving but wanted to discuss the terms and conditions of their resignation, then you would probably suggest that they depart immediately, any outstanding pay or request for the return of excess will be forwarded, as per the contract signed in good faith by both sides. The employee, no matter how senior or junior they may be has no right to try and dictate how the organisation operates.
We were not even a good member of the community, we refused to take part in many things, we were always moaning and trying to change things to our own benefit and no one else.
Then why do so many believe that just because we are British, the other EU27 should dance to our tune?
That is not to say they will not choose that course but it will ultimately be to their detriment as well as ours.
0 -
Great. The EIB can wire our money back to us thenSouthamObserver said:
No exit bill for sure. Good luck with the assets, though. And the economy.Charles said:
That's fine - in that case there are no exit liabilities and we get our assets back. Short sighted of them thoughFF43 said:
They own the system and decide who gets access to it and on what terms. They are certainly not interested in replicating the system for us on a bilateral basis just because we dislike their membership. The EU is a multilateral body, bit we don't like their multilateralism if it excludes us.MarkHopkins said:FF43 said:
If the employee still wanted a relationship with you, yes. Which is where we are with Brexit. If we are happy to be a Tokugawa "closed country" it would be simpler. But we are supposed to be"Britain open for business" and if that means anything we have to deal with the world we live in. Above all we have to deal with the EU.Sean_F said:
But, would I, the employer be making demands of the ex -employee.OchEye said:Let's see now, if you, the atypical PB employer had an employee come up to you, and told you they were leaving but wanted to discuss the terms and conditions of their resignation, then you would probably suggest that they depart immediately, any outstanding pay or request for the return of excess will be forwarded, as per the contract signed in good faith by both sides. The employee, no matter how senior or junior they may be has no right to try and dictate how the organisation operates.
We were not even a good member of the community, we refused to take part in many things, we were always moaning and trying to change things to our own benefit and no one else.
Then why do so many believe that just because we are British, the other EU27 should dance to our tune?
We would be happy to have an economic/business settlement with them. They don't want one. They want political control.0 -
What was preventing this previously?PAW said:http://www.businessweekly.co.uk/news/engineering/construction-milestone-rrs-sir-david-attenborough - I like the idea “By investing in UK shipyards, and encouraging shipyards to work together, the UK can dramatically ramp up the number of ships it builds, converts and repairs, for the commercial and naval sectors at home and abroad."
0 -
0
-
But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.Alanbrooke said:
@Gardenwalker
thread getting too long so reposted
In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.
Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.
I moved becasue
- I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
- I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
- I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
- the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in
I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so
I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.
The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them
The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of
I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,
It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.
0 -
Well done on Watford's good start though you've had a fairly easy run in. Watford's success a great example of cross-Europe partnership something that is so important to demonstrate at this time. English cub owned by an Italian with a Portuguese manager.Ave_it said:Watford!
Unbeaten in last 3 premier league games!
Just like CON unbeaten in last 3 big tournaments 2010-2015-2017!0 -
Theuniondivvie - I remember the EU blocked support for a major east coast shipyard, which closed - and allowed support for a German shipyard - at the same time.
The advantage of leaving the EU I see is that we can bring back industries to the UK.0 -
Remind us what the UK's current account balance for the last five years has been ?Scott_P said:Let us flee this decaying edifice...
https://twitter.com/bbchelenalee/status/902632200809668621
A deficit of half a trillion quid sounds vaguely familiar.
What was it that George Osborne said about borrowing money from abroad to buy things from abroad being unsustainable ?
I'm sure you can find the tweet, I think it was from before the 2010 general election.
0 -
I am sure they will if we ask nicely :-DCharles said:
Great. The EIB can wire our money back to us thenSouthamObserver said:
No exit bill for sure. Good luck with the assets, though. And the economy.Charles said:
That's fine - in that case there are no exit liabilities and we get our assets back. Short sighted of them thoughFF43 said:
They own the system and decide who gets access to it and on what terms. They are certainly not interested in replicating the system for us on a bilateral basis just because we dislike their membership. The EU is a multilateral body, bit we don't like their multilateralism if it excludes us.MarkHopkins said:FF43 said:
If the employee still wanted a relationship with you, yes. Which is where we are with Brexit. If we are happy to be a Tokugawa "closed country" it would be simpler. But we are supposed to be"Britain open for business" and if that means anything we have to deal with the world we live in. Above all we have to deal with the EU.Sean_F said:
But, would I, the employer be making demands of the ex -employee.OchEye said:Let's see now, if you, the atypical PB employer had an employee come up to you, and told you they were leaving but wanted to discuss the terms and conditions of their resignation, then you would probably suggest that they depart immediately, any outstanding pay or request for the return of excess will be forwarded, as per the contract signed in good faith by both sides. The employee, no matter how senior or junior they may be has no right to try and dictate how the organisation operates.
We were not even a good member of the community, we refused to take part in many things, we were always moaning and trying to change things to our own benefit and no one else.
Then why do so many believe that just because we are British, the other EU27 should dance to our tune?
We would be happy to have an economic/business settlement with them. They don't want one. They want political control.
0 -
Oh! Nationalise the shipyards, Wow! What a brilliant idea, wonder why no one has ever thought of that!Theuniondivvie said:
What was preventing this previously?PAW said:http://www.businessweekly.co.uk/news/engineering/construction-milestone-rrs-sir-david-attenborough - I like the idea “By investing in UK shipyards, and encouraging shipyards to work together, the UK can dramatically ramp up the number of ships it builds, converts and repairs, for the commercial and naval sectors at home and abroad."
0 -
For what it's worth, which may be not much, we went back to Selby for a few days last week, where we lived for 6 years until 2009.another_richard said:
Its all a bit bizarre in South Yorkshire - lots of houses, shops and industrial units are being built.Alanbrooke said:
Hows that Northern Powerhouse going ?another_richard said:My thanks to AndyJS for putting up the Betfair cricket odds on Sunday.
I expect it's all built now
Now I can understand the houses but there's already no shortage of retail and industrial units which have 'To Let' signs on them.
So we're either going to have an economic boom along the M18 or we're in the later stages of a property speculation bubble.
It definitely felt like it was thriving, which was great to see. While we lived there it still seemed to be suffering from the after effects of disappearing industry and mining. Not sure whether it's now benefitting from commuter spillover from Leeds and York but good to see it feeling less run-down than 10 years ago.
Edit: Strangely sad though to see Ferrybridge power station closed and Eggborough now only on stand-by. I know they are not good for the environment but they used to have a weird beauty - huge 'cloud factories' alongside the M62. Only Drax now still pumping out the clouds
0 -
No doubt the free trade deal abolishing tariffs on Australian iron ore and coal will be a great boost for our iron and steel industry.PAW said:Theuniondivvie - I remember the EU blocked support for a major east coast shipyard, which closed - and allowed support for a German shipyard - at the same time.
The advantage of leaving the EU I see is that we can bring back industries to the UK.0 -
Have you a link for that?PAW said:Theuniondivvie - I remember the EU blocked support for a major east coast shipyard, which closed - and allowed support for a German shipyard - at the same time.
The advantage of leaving the EU I see is that we can bring back industries to the UK.0 -
So there is a capacity there to grow and for businesses to develop in those areas. Sounds positive.another_richard said:
Its all a bit bizarre in South Yorkshire - lots of houses, shops and industrial units are being built.Alanbrooke said:
Hows that Northern Powerhouse going ?another_richard said:My thanks to AndyJS for putting up the Betfair cricket odds on Sunday.
I expect it's all built now
Now I can understand the houses but there's already no shortage of retail and industrial units which have 'To Let' signs on them.
So we're either going to have an economic boom along the M18 or we're in the later stages of a property speculation bubble.
There is an element of truth to that oft-misquoted Field of Dreams line.0 -
The thought that it might not work, at a guess. I assume that we don't have enough domestic demand to support a shipbuilding industry, so we will have to attract overseas orders, and that means taking business away from established Japanese and S Korean shipbuilders who may be better/cheaper/quicker than us.Theuniondivvie said:
What was preventing this previously?PAW said:http://www.businessweekly.co.uk/news/engineering/construction-milestone-rrs-sir-david-attenborough - I like the idea “By investing in UK shipyards, and encouraging shipyards to work together, the UK can dramatically ramp up the number of ships it builds, converts and repairs, for the commercial and naval sectors at home and abroad."
Even more speculatively, perhaps the brexit gun is being jumped here in that we will be able to put business our own way post brexit in a way we couldn't before. And of course if we take back control of our fisheries we are going to need an expanded fishing fleet.0 -
Interesting article in the Telegraph re a transition deal. Apparently any transition deal could not be agreed beyond two years as it would be subject to legal challenge on the grounds that it is extending the existing trade without addressing leaving the EU and that it could be a vehicle just to delay the process. The legal challenge could come even if the extension was mutually agreed between UK and the EU.
Also the seven year EU budget concludes in 2020 and the UK will have no further obligation for the next seven year EU budget0 -
Absolutely! Abolishing agricultural tariffs and subsidies in New Zealand proved a great spur for developing their agricultural sector.foxinsoxuk said:
No doubt the free trade deal abolishing tariffs on Australian iron ore and coal will be a great boost for our iron and steel industry.PAW said:Theuniondivvie - I remember the EU blocked support for a major east coast shipyard, which closed - and allowed support for a German shipyard - at the same time.
The advantage of leaving the EU I see is that we can bring back industries to the UK.
Tariffs don't work. They never have done.0 -
More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.
One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.
About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.
Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.
Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.
Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades0 -
Nor were his periods in government particularly successful.foxinsoxuk said:
Churchill's political positions were very reactionary and poorly received for nearly all his career, apart from a brief period in the early forties.stodge said:
If you're going to argue political history with me, you're going to have to do much better than that.ydoethur said:
No, Stodge, he was a Conservative 1900-1903, a Liberal 1903-22 on the Lloyd George wing from 1916-22 (in theory again briefly in 23) an Independent 1922-25 and a Conservative from then on. He was never at any stage a Liberal Unionist or a Liberal National although in 1902 he toyed with the idea of joining a party led by Devonshire if Rosebery and Asquith would join too. That never happened so he defected instead.
Neville Chamberlain, of course, was a Liberal Unionist and refused to be called a Conservative (in the 1929 election he still used 'Unionist' and thereafter 'National') but not Churchill.
Also there could be questions asked about our lack of great power status simply because the US abdicated the responsibility they should have taken up. But that's a long conversation I have no energy for.
Agree with the rest.
Good night.
I never said he was a member of a party called Liberal Unionist, there was no such party. If you prefer, he was a liberal unionist. He was so much a loyal Conservative the party tried to de-select him in his Wanstead & Woodford seat before the war.
He was also supposedly going to join a King's Party to fight for Edward VIII to continue on the throne.
Churchill was a Liberal Unionist - he happened to be in the Conservative Party and fortunately for us all was in the right place at the right time when the Conservative appeasers ran out of time and support in the spring of 1940.
He only really came good as PM in 1940 and as Munitions Minster in 1917.0 -
OchEye - fincantieri builds cruise ships effectively, even though it is part owned by the Italian government. Perhaps the problem is not state ownership, but the idea of state ownership as a step to a socialist revolution.0
-
Remind me what the tariff on iron ore isPhilip_Thompson said:
Absolutely! Abolishing agricultural tariffs and subsidies in New Zealand proved a great spur for developing their agricultural sector.foxinsoxuk said:
No doubt the free trade deal abolishing tariffs on Australian iron ore and coal will be a great boost for our iron and steel industry.PAW said:Theuniondivvie - I remember the EU blocked support for a major east coast shipyard, which closed - and allowed support for a German shipyard - at the same time.
The advantage of leaving the EU I see is that we can bring back industries to the UK.
Tariffs don't work. They never have done.
0 -
Ignoring the countless private schools which already do exactly the same.TheScreamingEagles said:More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.
One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.
About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.
Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.
Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.
Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades
Indeed so do some Academies, including Portslade Aldridge Community Academy according to this article
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10273823/If-your-AS-level-is-not-up-to-scratch-youre-out.html0 -
Hello Mike!MikeSmithson said:
Well done on Watford's good start though you've had a fairly easy run in. Watford's success a great example of cross-Europe partnership something that is so important to demonstrate at this time. English cub owned by an Italian with a Portuguese manager.Ave_it said:Watford!
Unbeaten in last 3 premier league games!
Just like CON unbeaten in last 3 big tournaments 2010-2015-2017!
Fairly easy? We got a point against the mighty LIVERPOOL!
We CONS love working in a constructive relationship with Europe with TMay and DDavis leading the way!
Good luck to Burnley too - we like Sean Dyche0 -
Once again privileged public schoolboy looks for any opportunity to attack the one way of improving life chances for the poorer parts of society. You really are a disgrace.TheScreamingEagles said:More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.
One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.
About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.
Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.
Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.
Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades0 -
Perhaps we should give all children the advantages of a public school education, by letting the children cheat on examinations?0
-
And the evidence for that rather bizarre claim is what exactly?Fenman said:Brexit looks increasingly unlikely. Bet the EU is buy baking us a humble pie.
0 -
TSE failed his 11+Richard_Tyndall said:
Once again privileged public schoolboy looks for any opportunity to attack the one way of improving life chances for the poorer parts of society. You really are a disgrace.TheScreamingEagles said:More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.
One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.
About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.
Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.
Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.
Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades
0 -
Yep, TSE is right we should abolish Grammar Schools... but obviously we should abolish private schools first!HYUFD said:
Ignoring the countless private schools which already do exactly the same.TheScreamingEagles said:More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.
One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.
About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.
Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.
Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.
Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades
Indeed so do some Academies, including Portslade Aldridge Community Academy according to this article
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10273823/If-your-AS-level-is-not-up-to-scratch-youre-out.html0 -
Chucking out the noddies is a very effective way of climbing the league table. Much easier than value added, or leaking exam papers as per Eton too.HYUFD said:
Ignoring the countless private schools which already do exactly the same.TheScreamingEagles said:More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.
One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.
About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.
Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.
Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.
Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades
Indeed so do some Academies, including Portslade Aldridge Community Academy according to this article
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10273823/If-your-AS-level-is-not-up-to-scratch-youre-out.html0 -
They should definitely preserve some of the coal power stations - they're like the cathedrals of the post war era.Benpointer said:
For what it's worth, which may be not much, we went back to Selby for a few days last week, where we lived for 6 years until 2009.another_richard said:
Its all a bit bizarre in South Yorkshire - lots of houses, shops and industrial units are being built.Alanbrooke said:
Hows that Northern Powerhouse going ?another_richard said:My thanks to AndyJS for putting up the Betfair cricket odds on Sunday.
I expect it's all built now
Now I can understand the houses but there's already no shortage of retail and industrial units which have 'To Let' signs on them.
So we're either going to have an economic boom along the M18 or we're in the later stages of a property speculation bubble.
It definitely felt like it was thriving, which was great to see. While we lived there it still seemed to be suffering from the after effects of disappearing industry and mining. Not sure whether it's now benefitting from commuter spillover from Leeds and York but good to see it feeling less run-down than 10 years ago.
Edit: Strangely sad though to see Ferrybridge power station closed and Eggborough now only on stand-by. I know they are not good for the environment but they used to have a weird beauty - huge 'cloud factories' alongside the M62. Only Drax now still pumping out the clouds
0 -
-
Ah yes, because we really used to make such a good job of running our businesses back in the early 70s before we joned the EEC!Ishmael_Z said:
The thought that it might not work, at a guess. I assume that we don't have enough domestic demand to support a shipbuilding industry, so we will have to attract overseas orders, and that means taking business away from established Japanese and S Korean shipbuilders who may be better/cheaper/quicker than us.Theuniondivvie said:
What was preventing this previously?PAW said:http://www.businessweekly.co.uk/news/engineering/construction-milestone-rrs-sir-david-attenborough - I like the idea “By investing in UK shipyards, and encouraging shipyards to work together, the UK can dramatically ramp up the number of ships it builds, converts and repairs, for the commercial and naval sectors at home and abroad."
Even more speculatively, perhaps the brexit gun is being jumped here in that we will be able to put business our own way post brexit in a way we couldn't before. And of course if we take back control of our fisheries we are going to need an expanded fishing fleet.0 -
A good school for me, but not for thee.Richard_Tyndall said:
Once again privileged public schoolboy looks for any opportunity to attack the one way of improving life chances for the poorer parts of society. You really are a disgrace.TheScreamingEagles said:More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.
One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.
About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.
Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.
Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.
Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades0 -
All the evidence points to the contrary.Richard_Tyndall said:
Once again privileged public schoolboy looks for any opportunity to attack the one way of improving life chances for the poorer parts of society. You really are a disgrace.TheScreamingEagles said:More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.
One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.
About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.
Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.
Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.
Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades
One of Mrs Thatcher's finest achievements was to abolish so many grammar schools as Education Secretary then as PM not to create any new grammars.
She knew what the evidence was pointing to.0 -
I passed my 11+/entry exam with flying colours.Sunil_Prasannan said:
TSE failed his 11+Richard_Tyndall said:
Once again privileged public schoolboy looks for any opportunity to attack the one way of improving life chances for the poorer parts of society. You really are a disgrace.TheScreamingEagles said:More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.
One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.
About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.
Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.
Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.
Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades0 -
No idea. If its zero and you were being silly then dropping tariffs in general is still a good idea and will be an economic spur still.foxinsoxuk said:
Remind me what the tariff on iron ore isPhilip_Thompson said:
Absolutely! Abolishing agricultural tariffs and subsidies in New Zealand proved a great spur for developing their agricultural sector.foxinsoxuk said:
No doubt the free trade deal abolishing tariffs on Australian iron ore and coal will be a great boost for our iron and steel industry.PAW said:Theuniondivvie - I remember the EU blocked support for a major east coast shipyard, which closed - and allowed support for a German shipyard - at the same time.
The advantage of leaving the EU I see is that we can bring back industries to the UK.
Tariffs don't work. They never have done.0 -
-
A few ways just for starters:foxinsoxuk said:
Could you please elaborate on how a Tory government post Brexit will redistribute the nations wealth away from London and the South East and towards the poorest people of Britain, and particularly in communities like the NE England or S Wales?Mortimer said:
What a partisan response to a non partisan point. A shame.Monksfield said:
My irony meter just explodes off the scale every time a partisan Tory starts talking about the need for redistribution.Mortimer said:
Brexit is the assertion by the majority* that the current social settlement isn't working for them, and the demand that their political servants become more accountable and thus responsive to their needs.Gardenwalker said:
Indeed. The arguments for Brexit have collapsed. The only thing left is "well, we voted for it".nichomar said:I wish I could have such unwavering beief in a viewpoit that some leavers have. Their desire to leave is beyond question and yet I have still not seen an argument that tells how in the short or medium term it will make "things better". They treat people who try to explain their concerns with disdain and contempt.
I know Remainers are guilty of a world of guff too, but I search in vain for a confident articulation of Brexit today.
As with pretty much all constitutional reform in this country, it is a perfect demonstration of the error correction inherent within our system that puts elites on notice that the spoils of the day (be they power, money, culture) need to be more evenly shared and not become ever more remote.
*who could be bothered to vote, which in my mind is significant
In what way is this different to Corbynism?
- revoking freedom of movement should stimulate wage growth. As noted by Lord Rose
- revoking freedom of movement will encourage business to invest in people, and technology, that will lead to higher productivity
But its not all about money - it is also about culture, and power. Both of which will be more focused within our borders post Brexit.0 -
Stupid comment. The massive scale of nationalised industry even under the Tories in the 70s makes any such comparison ludicrous.Benpointer said:
Ah yes, because we really used to make such a good job of running our businesses back in the early 70s before we joned the EEC!Ishmael_Z said:
The thought that it might not work, at a guess. I assume that we don't have enough domestic demand to support a shipbuilding industry, so we will have to attract overseas orders, and that means taking business away from established Japanese and S Korean shipbuilders who may be better/cheaper/quicker than us.Theuniondivvie said:
What was preventing this previously?PAW said:http://www.businessweekly.co.uk/news/engineering/construction-milestone-rrs-sir-david-attenborough - I like the idea “By investing in UK shipyards, and encouraging shipyards to work together, the UK can dramatically ramp up the number of ships it builds, converts and repairs, for the commercial and naval sectors at home and abroad."
Even more speculatively, perhaps the brexit gun is being jumped here in that we will be able to put business our own way post brexit in a way we couldn't before. And of course if we take back control of our fisheries we are going to need an expanded fishing fleet.0 -
Thanks. We got THREE points at Chelsea away and then drew with Spurs away though that's less of a big deal given how poor are at their temporary home ground.Ave_it said:
Hello Mike!MikeSmithson said:
Well done on Watford's good start though you've had a fairly easy run in. Watford's success a great example of cross-Europe partnership something that is so important to demonstrate at this time. English cub owned by an Italian with a Portuguese manager.Ave_it said:Watford!
Unbeaten in last 3 premier league games!
Just like CON unbeaten in last 3 big tournaments 2010-2015-2017!
Fairly easy? We got a point against the mighty LIVERPOOL!
We CONS love working in a constructive relationship with Europe with TMay and DDavis leading the way!
Good luck to Burnley too - we like Sean Dyche0 -
That's very bad news for Labour. The polling companies after the election are presumably no longer underestimating Labour -in the case of Yougov, it wasn't in the first place. To be level pegging when Kinnock and Miliband were ahead by double digits shows again that Corbyn is a liability and that history will show that by saving Corbyn's skin, the real beneficiaries of the 2017 election will be the Tories,0
-
Actually the evidence does not. Read the Sutton Trust report for the actual facts rather than your ignorant elitist bias.TheScreamingEagles said:
All the evidence points to the contrary.Richard_Tyndall said:
Once again privileged public schoolboy looks for any opportunity to attack the one way of improving life chances for the poorer parts of society. You really are a disgrace.TheScreamingEagles said:More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.
One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.
About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.
Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.
Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.
Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades
One of Mrs Thatcher's finest achievements was to abolish so many grammar schools as Education Secretary then as PM not to create any new grammars.
She knew what the evidence was pointing to.0 -
We will be taking very little and giving away too much. Most of EU will be quite happy sourcing suppliers and customers from within, while most of our businesses will, if they wish to do business in a far larger market without tariffs or penalties, move their capabilities to within the EU27. After all, within the EU, they will already be able to to trade worldwide within existing trading treaties, while if they stay within the UK, they will have wait until Westminster gets around to it with all the other 170 odd countries.Richard_Tyndall said:
Of course the problem is that the analogy is rubbish. We were not an employee of the EU, we were supposedly an equal partner, though in fact that was an illusion. We are leaving taking with us a significant portion of the businesses capital and customers. We are also taking some key assets and specialists which the rest of the company rely upon. Many of the remaining partners face significant difficulties if the board decide not to deal with us in a manner to our mutual benefit.FF43 said:
If the employee still wanted a relationship with you, yes. Which is where we are with Brexit. If we are happy to be a Tokugawa "closed country" it would be simpler. But we are supposed to be"Britain open for business" and if that means anything we have to deal with the world we live in. Above all we have to deal with the EU.Sean_F said:
But, would I, the employer be making demands of the ex -employee.OchEye said:Let's see now, if you, the atypical PB employer had an employee come up to you, and told you they were leaving but wanted to discuss the terms and conditions of their resignation, then you would probably suggest that they depart immediately, any outstanding pay or request for the return of excess will be forwarded, as per the contract signed in good faith by both sides. The employee, no matter how senior or junior they may be has no right to try and dictate how the organisation operates.
We were not even a good member of the community, we refused to take part in many things, we were always moaning and trying to change things to our own benefit and no one else.
Then why do so many believe that just because we are British, the other EU27 should dance to our tune?
That is not to say they will not choose that course but it will ultimately be to their detriment as well as ours.
Stay or go, hmm! If you were running a large company, financial, manufacturing or service, what would you do? 60 million increasingly ageing population with a dodgy currency or 350 plus million expanding with a strong currency. Let me think!
Standard Life Aberdeen is already organising a name plate move to Dublin and could quite easily move it's corporate HQ there or to Germany.0 -
Yep. Kind of sums up TSE's attitude to everything these days. I'm alright Jack and screw everyone else.Sean_F said:
A good school for me, but not for thee.Richard_Tyndall said:
Once again privileged public schoolboy looks for any opportunity to attack the one way of improving life chances for the poorer parts of society. You really are a disgrace.TheScreamingEagles said:More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.
One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.
About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.
Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.
Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.
Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades0 -
I am sure that one or two will be preserved in some form... Drax maybe, when the wind farms and solar have taken over.another_richard said:
They should definitely preserve some of the coal power stations - they're like the cathedrals of the post war era.Benpointer said:
For what it's worth, which may be not much, we went back to Selby for a few days last week, where we lived for 6 years until 2009.another_richard said:
Its all a bit bizarre in South Yorkshire - lots of houses, shops and industrial units are being built.Alanbrooke said:
Hows that Northern Powerhouse going ?another_richard said:My thanks to AndyJS for putting up the Betfair cricket odds on Sunday.
I expect it's all built now
Now I can understand the houses but there's already no shortage of retail and industrial units which have 'To Let' signs on them.
So we're either going to have an economic boom along the M18 or we're in the later stages of a property speculation bubble.
It definitely felt like it was thriving, which was great to see. While we lived there it still seemed to be suffering from the after effects of disappearing industry and mining. Not sure whether it's now benefitting from commuter spillover from Leeds and York but good to see it feeling less run-down than 10 years ago.
Edit: Strangely sad though to see Ferrybridge power station closed and Eggborough now only on stand-by. I know they are not good for the environment but they used to have a weird beauty - huge 'cloud factories' alongside the M62. Only Drax now still pumping out the clouds
It's been done already of course a couple of times in London.0 -
The EU has been one of the major drivers of reduced tariff barriers in the WTO, in large part due to our input.Philip_Thompson said:
No idea. If its zero and you were being silly then dropping tariffs in general is still a good idea and will be an economic spur still.foxinsoxuk said:
Remind me what the tariff on iron ore isPhilip_Thompson said:
Absolutely! Abolishing agricultural tariffs and subsidies in New Zealand proved a great spur for developing their agricultural sector.foxinsoxuk said:
No doubt the free trade deal abolishing tariffs on Australian iron ore and coal will be a great boost for our iron and steel industry.PAW said:Theuniondivvie - I remember the EU blocked support for a major east coast shipyard, which closed - and allowed support for a German shipyard - at the same time.
The advantage of leaving the EU I see is that we can bring back industries to the UK.
Tariffs don't work. They never have done.0 -
You couldn't get into grammar school, so that's why you were sent to public school.TheScreamingEagles said:
I passed my 11+/entry exam with flying colours.Sunil_Prasannan said:
TSE failed his 11+Richard_Tyndall said:
Once again privileged public schoolboy looks for any opportunity to attack the one way of improving life chances for the poorer parts of society. You really are a disgrace.TheScreamingEagles said:More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.
One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.
About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.
Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.
Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.
Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades0 -
Businesses really boomed from 73 to 79! Everyone remembers fondly the Winter of Contentedness in 1978/79 when after more than half a decade in the EEC there was sunshine, roses and economic growth for everybody!Benpointer said:
Ah yes, because we really used to make such a good job of running our businesses back in the early 70s before we joned the EEC!Ishmael_Z said:
The thought that it might not work, at a guess. I assume that we don't have enough domestic demand to support a shipbuilding industry, so we will have to attract overseas orders, and that means taking business away from established Japanese and S Korean shipbuilders who may be better/cheaper/quicker than us.Theuniondivvie said:
What was preventing this previously?PAW said:http://www.businessweekly.co.uk/news/engineering/construction-milestone-rrs-sir-david-attenborough - I like the idea “By investing in UK shipyards, and encouraging shipyards to work together, the UK can dramatically ramp up the number of ships it builds, converts and repairs, for the commercial and naval sectors at home and abroad."
Even more speculatively, perhaps the brexit gun is being jumped here in that we will be able to put business our own way post brexit in a way we couldn't before. And of course if we take back control of our fisheries we are going to need an expanded fishing fleet.0 -
Now we can give our input directly to the WTO ourselves rather than being one voice in a choir of 28.foxinsoxuk said:
The EU has been one of the major drivers of reduced tariff barriers in the WTO, in large part due to our input.Philip_Thompson said:
No idea. If its zero and you were being silly then dropping tariffs in general is still a good idea and will be an economic spur still.foxinsoxuk said:
Remind me what the tariff on iron ore isPhilip_Thompson said:
Absolutely! Abolishing agricultural tariffs and subsidies in New Zealand proved a great spur for developing their agricultural sector.foxinsoxuk said:
No doubt the free trade deal abolishing tariffs on Australian iron ore and coal will be a great boost for our iron and steel industry.PAW said:Theuniondivvie - I remember the EU blocked support for a major east coast shipyard, which closed - and allowed support for a German shipyard - at the same time.
The advantage of leaving the EU I see is that we can bring back industries to the UK.
Tariffs don't work. They never have done.0 -
Which industries will see the most significant wage growth most quickly, do you think?Mortimer said:
A few ways just for starters:foxinsoxuk said:
Could you please elaborate on how a Tory government post Brexit will redistribute the nations wealth away from London and the South East and towards the poorest people of Britain, and particularly in communities like the NE England or S Wales?Mortimer said:
What a partisan response to a non partisan point. A shame.Monksfield said:
My irony meter just explodes off the scale every time a partisan Tory starts talking about the need for redistribution.Mortimer said:
Brexit is the assertion by the majority* that the current social settlement isn't working for them, and the demand that their political servants become more accountable and thus responsive to their needs.Gardenwalker said:
Indeed. The arguments for Brexit have collapsed. The only thing left is "well, we voted for it".nichomar said:I wish I could have such unwavering beief in a viewpoit that some leavers have. Their desire to leave is beyond question and yet I have still not seen an argument that tells how in the short or medium term it will make "things better". They treat people who try to explain their concerns with disdain and contempt.
I know Remainers are guilty of a world of guff too, but I search in vain for a confident articulation of Brexit today.
As with pretty much all constitutional reform in this country, it is a perfect demonstration of the error correction inherent within our system that puts elites on notice that the spoils of the day (be they power, money, culture) need to be more evenly shared and not become ever more remote.
*who could be bothered to vote, which in my mind is significant
In what way is this different to Corbynism?
- revoking freedom of movement should stimulate wage growth. As noted by Lord Rose
- revoking freedom of movement will encourage business to invest in people, and technology, that will lead to higher productivity
But its not all about money - it is also about culture, and power. Both of which will be more focused within our borders post Brexit.
0 -
I was never asked if I wanted EU citizenship.SouthamObserver said:
But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.Alanbrooke said:
@Gardenwalker
thread getting too long so reposted
In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.
Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.
I moved becasue
- I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
- I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
- I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
- the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in
I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so
I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.
The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them
The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of
I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,
It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.
0 -
4 years 9 months to #GE2022!
4-0
4-0
4-0
2010 2015 2017 2022 0 -
Dream on... if the past two years have taught us anything it's that polls outside of an election campaign are meaningless. The longer this government goes on, the more it will suffer from voter disenchantment, which eventually gets every govenrment.stevef said:That's very bad news for Labour. The polling companies after the election are presumably no longer underestimating Labour -in the case of Yougov, it wasn't in the first place. To be level pegging when Kinnock and Miliband were ahead by double digits shows again that Corbyn is a liability and that history will show that by saving Corbyn's skin, the real beneficiaries of the 2017 election will be the Tories,
0 -
We'll probably invest more in our US and Asia operations, and may open an office in the Single Market. We'll create more jobs outside the UK than we would have done and pay less tax here. We're hardly big players, but I suspect many other export-focused businesses are planning similar strategies.OchEye said:
We will be taking very little and giving away too much. Most of EU will be quite happy sourcing suppliers and customers from within, while most of our businesses will, if they wish to do business in a far larger market without tariffs or penalties, move their capabilities to within the EU27. After all, within the EU, they will already be able to to trade worldwide within existing trading treaties, while if they stay within the UK, they will have wait until Westminster gets around to it with all the other 170 odd countries.Richard_Tyndall said:
Of course the problemers. We are also taking some key assets and specialists which the rest of the company rely upon. Many of the remaining partners face significant difficulties if the board decide not to deal with us in a manner to our mutual benefit.FF43 said:
If the employee stillf that means anything we have to deal with the world we live in. Above all we have to deal with the EU.Sean_F said:
But, would I, the employer be making demands of the ex -employee.OchEye said:Let's see now, if you, the atypical PB employer had an employee come up to you, and told you they were leaving but wanted to discuss the terms and conditions of their resignation, then you would probably suggest that they depart immediately, any outstanding pay or request for the return of excess will be forwarded, as per the contract signed in good faith by both sides. The employee, no matter how senior or junior they may be has no right to try and dictate how the organisation operates.
We were not even a good member of the community, we refused to take part in many things, we were always moaning and trying to change things to our own benefit and no one else.
Then why do so many believe that just because we are British, the other EU27 should dance to our tune?
That is not to say they will not choose that course but it will ultimately be to their detriment as well as ours.
Stay or go, hmm! If you were running a large company, financial, manufacturing or service, what would you do? 60 million increasingly ageing population with a dodgy currency or 350 plus million expanding with a strong currency. Let me think!
Standard Life Aberdeen is already organising a name plate move to Dublin and could quite easily move it's corporate HQ there or to Germany.
0 -
Fair point... so why don't we ask people individually to choose whether they want to keep it or not? You can reject yours - I'll choose to keep mine... That way everyone's happy!Mortimer said:
I was never asked if I wanted EU citizenship.SouthamObserver said:
But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.Alanbrooke said:
@Gardenwalker
thread getting too long so reposted
In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.
Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.
I moved becasue
- I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
- I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
- I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
- the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in
I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so
I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.
The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them
The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of
I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,
It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.0 -
2017 was like Watford drawing with a pub league team, really embarrassingAve_it said:4 years 9 months to #GE2022!
4-0
4-0
4-0
2010 2015 2017 20220 -
23rd June 2016?Benpointer said:
Fair point... so why don't we ask people individually to choose whether they want to keep it or not?Mortimer said:
I was never asked if I wanted EU citizenship.SouthamObserver said:
But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.Alanbrooke said:
@Gardenwalker
thread getting too long so reposted
In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.
Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.
I moved becasue
- I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
- I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
- I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
- the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in
I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so
I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.
The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them
The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of
I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,
It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.0 -
Service industries which rely on large numbers of applicants for low paying jobs.SouthamObserver said:
Which industries will see the most significant wage growth most quickly, do you think?Mortimer said:
A few ways just for starters:foxinsoxuk said:
Could you please elaborate on how a Tory government post Brexit will redistribute the nations wealth away from London and the South East and towards the poorest people of Britain, and particularly in communities like the NE England or S Wales?Mortimer said:
What a partisan response to a non partisan point. A shame.Monksfield said:
My irony meter just explodes off the scale every time a partisan Tory starts talking about the need for redistribution.Mortimer said:
Brexit is the assertion by the majority* that the current social settlement isn't working for them, and the demand that their political servants become more accountable and thus responsive to their needs.Gardenwalker said:
Indeed. The arguments for Brexit have collapsed. The only thing left is "well, we voted for it".nichomar said:I wish I could have such unwavering beief in a viewpoit that some leavers have. Their desire to leave is beyond question and yet I have still not seen an argument that tells how in the short or medium term it will make "things better". They treat people who try to explain their concerns with disdain and contempt.
I know Remainers are guilty of a world of guff too, but I search in vain for a confident articulation of Brexit today.
As with pretty much all constitutional reform in this country, it is a perfect demonstration of the error correction inherent within our system that puts elites on notice that the spoils of the day (be they power, money, culture) need to be more evenly shared and not become ever more remote.
*who could be bothered to vote, which in my mind is significant
In what way is this different to Corbynism?
- revoking freedom of movement should stimulate wage growth. As noted by Lord Rose
- revoking freedom of movement will encourage business to invest in people, and technology, that will lead to higher productivity
But its not all about money - it is also about culture, and power. Both of which will be more focused within our borders post Brexit.
Food outlets, retailers, carers, cleaners.
0 -
Great article in the FT about young people in the US who entered adulthood since the financial crisis;
https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&q=https://www.ft.com/content/e5246526-8c2c-11e7-a352-e46f43c5825d&oq=https://www.ft.com/content/e5246526-8c2c-11e7-a352-e46f43c5825d&gs_l=psy-ab.3...283.283.0.428.1.1.0.0.0.0.76.76.1.1.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0.mwn3Rcwbg-M
The dynamic is even worse in this country. What kind of solutions can the tories offer to generation f*cked?0 -
Brexit will decide the next government and no one has a clue who will win that argumentBenpointer said:
Dream on... if the past two years have taught us anything it's that polls outside of an election campaign are meaningless. The longer this government goes on, the more it will suffer from voter disenchantment, which eventually gets every govenrment.stevef said:That's very bad news for Labour. The polling companies after the election are presumably no longer underestimating Labour -in the case of Yougov, it wasn't in the first place. To be level pegging when Kinnock and Miliband were ahead by double digits shows again that Corbyn is a liability and that history will show that by saving Corbyn's skin, the real beneficiaries of the 2017 election will be the Tories,
However, tonight's news that the Courts will deem a transition deal of more than two years as illegal even if the EU and UK agree, puts labour's new policy on life support0 -
You can keep your EU citizenship as long as it is on the same basis as any other dual nationality - that you are subject to UK laws not EU ones when you are in this country. It is the way every other country - including EU members - work.Benpointer said:
Fair point... so why don't we ask people individually to choose whether they want to keep it or not? You can reject yours - I'll choose to keep mine... That way everyone's happy!Mortimer said:
I was never asked if I wanted EU citizenship.SouthamObserver said:
But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.Alanbrooke said:
@Gardenwalker
thread getting too long so reposted
In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.
Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.
I moved becasue
- I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
- I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
- I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
- the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in
I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so
I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.
The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them
The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of
I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,
It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.0 -
What, like in a referendum?Benpointer said:
Fair point... so why don't we ask people individually to choose whether they want to keep it or not? You can reject yours - I'll choose to keep mine... That way everyone's happy!Mortimer said:
I was never asked if I wanted EU citizenship.SouthamObserver said:
But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.Alanbrooke said:
@Gardenwalker
thread getting too long so reposted
In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.
Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.
I moved becasue
- I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
- I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
- I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
- the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in
I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so
I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.
The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them
The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of
I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,
It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.0 -
No, Charles, it's because my irony meter is wired directly to my hypocrisy sensor.Charles said:
Is that because you are intrinsically a better person?Monksfield said:
My irony meter just explodes off the scale every time a partisan Tory starts talking about the need for redistribution.Mortimer said:
Brexit is the assertion by the majority* that the current social settlement isn't working for them, and the demand that their political servants become more accountable and thus responsive to their needs.Gardenwalker said:
Indeed. The arguments for Brexit have collapsed. The only thing left is "well, we voted for it".nichomar said:I wish I could have such unwavering beief in a viewpoit that some leavers have. Their desire to leave is beyond question and yet I have still not seen an argument that tells how in the short or medium term it will make "things better". They treat people who try to explain their concerns with disdain and contempt.
I know Remainers are guilty of a world of guff too, but I search in vain for a confident articulation of Brexit today.
As with pretty much all constitutional reform in this country, it is a perfect demonstration of the error correction inherent within our system that puts elites on notice that the spoils of the day (be they power, money, culture) need to be more evenly shared and not become ever more remote.
*who could be bothered to vote, which in my mind is significant0 -
I was never asked if I wanted UK citizenship. I am happy to have it, though. Just as I liked the freedoms and opportunities EU citizenship gave me and my family. I am just pleased for Mr Alanbrooke that he was in the fortunate position of being able to take away rights from us that he and his family retain.Mortimer said:
I was never asked if I wanted EU citizenship.SouthamObserver said:
But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.Alanbrooke said:
@Gardenwalker
thread getting too long so reposted
In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.
Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.
I moved becasue
- I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
- I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
- I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
- the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in
I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so
I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.
The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them
The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of
I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,
It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.
0 -
Do you mean Watford 3 Liverpool 3?TheScreamingEagles said:
2017 was like Watford drawing with a pub league team, really embarrassingAve_it said:4 years 9 months to #GE2022!
4-0
4-0
4-0
2010 2015 2017 2022 0 -
Oh yes - good point - I suspect the EEC must have been to blame for the 3-day week and power cuts in 1974 too as we'd joined the previous year.Philip_Thompson said:
Businesses really boomed from 73 to 79! Everyone remembers fondly the Winter of Contentedness in 1978/79 when after more than half a decade in the EEC there was sunshine, roses and economic growth for everybody!Benpointer said:
Ah yes, because we really used to make such a good job of running our businesses back in the early 70s before we joned the EEC!Ishmael_Z said:
The thought that it might not work, at a guess. I assume that we don't have enough domestic demand to support a shipbuilding industry, so we will have to attract overseas orders, and that means taking business away from established Japanese and S Korean shipbuilders who may be better/cheaper/quicker than us.Theuniondivvie said:
What was preventing this previously?PAW said:http://www.businessweekly.co.uk/news/engineering/construction-milestone-rrs-sir-david-attenborough - I like the idea “By investing in UK shipyards, and encouraging shipyards to work together, the UK can dramatically ramp up the number of ships it builds, converts and repairs, for the commercial and naval sectors at home and abroad."
Even more speculatively, perhaps the brexit gun is being jumped here in that we will be able to put business our own way post brexit in a way we couldn't before. And of course if we take back control of our fisheries we are going to need an expanded fishing fleet.
Somehow we managed to avoid the EEC/EC/EU screwing up our economy again in the past 38 years though - we must have got lucky I guess!0 -
Nah, Watford were lucky as your third goal was offside.Ave_it said:
Do you mean Watford 3 Liverpool 3?TheScreamingEagles said:
2017 was like Watford drawing with a pub league team, really embarrassingAve_it said:4 years 9 months to #GE2022!
4-0
4-0
4-0
2010 2015 2017 20220 -
Yes, let us abolish the two most successful types of school we have, could only have come from a socialistBenpointer said:
Yep, TSE is right we should abolish Grammar Schools... but obviously we should abolish private schools first!HYUFD said:
Ignoring the countless private schools which already do exactly the same.TheScreamingEagles said:More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.
One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.
About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.
Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.
Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.
Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades
Indeed so do some Academies, including Portslade Aldridge Community Academy according to this article
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10273823/If-your-AS-level-is-not-up-to-scratch-youre-out.html0 -
https://twitter.com/jamesdoleman/status/902639195704963077
That Pig David Cameron Fucked in at number 10 with a bullet with £0.16.
0 -
So higher prices for all. Or fewer outlets. What's the timescale we're looking at?Mortimer said:
Service industries which rely on large numbers of applicants for low paying jobs.SouthamObserver said:
Which industries will see the most significant wage growth most quickly, do you think?Mortimer said:
A few ways just for starters:foxinsoxuk said:
Could you please elaborate on how a Tory government post Brexit will redistribute the nations wealth away from London and the South East and towards the poorest people of Britain, and particularly in communities like the NE England or S Wales?Mortimer said:
What a partisan response to a non partisan point. A shame.Monksfield said:
My irony meter just explodes off the scale every time a partisan Tory starts talking about the need for redistribution.Mortimer said:
Brexit is the assertion by the majority* that the current social settlement isn't working for them, and the demand that their political servants become more accountable and thus responsive to their needs.Gardenwalker said:
Indeed. The arguments for Brexit have collapsed. The only thing left is "well, we voted for it".nichomar said:I wish I could have such unwavering beief in a viewpoit that some leavers have. Their desire to leave is beyond question and yet I have still not seen an argument that tells how in the short or medium term it will make "things better". They treat people who try to explain their concerns with disdain and contempt.
I know Remainers are guilty of a world of guff too, but I search in vain for a confident articulation of Brexit today.
As with pretty much all constitutional reform in this country, it is a perfect demonstration of the error correction inherent within our system that puts elites on notice that the spoils of the day (be they power, money, culture) need to be more evenly shared and not become ever more remote.
*who could be bothered to vote, which in my mind is significant
In what way is this different to Corbynism?
- revoking freedom of movement should stimulate wage growth. As noted by Lord Rose
- revoking freedom of movement will encourage business to invest in people, and technology, that will lead to higher productivity
But its not all about money - it is also about culture, and power. Both of which will be more focused within our borders post Brexit.
Food outlets, retailers, carers, cleaners.
0 -
0
-
Er no, exactly not like a referendum... we don't have a referendum on whether we each want to buy a house or get married... You seem to have overlooked the phrase 'individually to choose' in my post.Mortimer said:
What, like in a referendum?Benpointer said:
Fair point... so why don't we ask people individually to choose whether they want to keep it or not? You can reject yours - I'll choose to keep mine... That way everyone's happy!Mortimer said:
I was never asked if I wanted EU citizenship.SouthamObserver said:
But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.Alanbrooke said:
@Gardenwalker
thread getting too long so reposted
In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.
Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.
I moved becasue
- I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
- I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
- I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
- the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in
I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so
I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.
The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them
The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of
I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,
It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.
@Freetochoose should love my suggestion 0 -
Not really a fair comparison is it; you get the citizenship, broadly, of the nation into which you're born.SouthamObserver said:
I was never asked if I wanted UK citizenship. I am happy to have it, though. Just as I liked the freedoms and opportunities EU citizenship gave me and my family. I am just pleased for Mr Alanbrooke that he was in the fortunate position of being able to take away rights from us that he and his family retain.Mortimer said:
I was never asked if I wanted EU citizenship.SouthamObserver said:
But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.Alanbrooke said:
@Gardenwalker
thread getting too long so reposted
In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.
Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.
I moved becasue
- I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
- I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
- I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
- the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in
I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so
I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.
The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them
The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of
I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,
It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.
Not the supranational body in which your country happens to currently be in.
0 -
She only signed off LA abolitions reluctantly under Heath's orders, latterly she even attended 'Friends of Grammar Schools' receptions with Graham Brady.TheScreamingEagles said:
All the evidence points to the contrary.Richard_Tyndall said:
Once again privileged public schoolboy looks for any opportunity to attack the one way of improving life chances for the poorer parts of society. You really are a disgrace.TheScreamingEagles said:More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.
One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.
About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.
Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.
Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.
Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades
One of Mrs Thatcher's finest achievements was to abolish so many grammar schools as Education Secretary then as PM not to create any new grammars.
She knew what the evidence was pointing to.
As Thatcher said herself at the 1977 Tory conference "People from my sort of background needed grammar schools to compete with children from privileged homes like Shirley Williams and Anthony Wedgwood Benn."
0 -
Mostly through avoiding moronic socialist policiesBenpointer said:
Oh yes - good point - I suspect the EEC must have been to blame for the 3-day week and power cuts in 1974 too as we'd joined the previous year.Philip_Thompson said:
Businesses really boomed from 73 to 79! Everyone remembers fondly the Winter of Contentedness in 1978/79 when after more than half a decade in the EEC there was sunshine, roses and economic growth for everybody!Benpointer said:
Ah yes, because we really used to make such a good job of running our businesses back in the early 70s before we joned the EEC!Ishmael_Z said:
The thought that it might not work, at a guess. I assume that we don't have enough domestic demand to support a shipbuilding industry, so we will have to attract overseas orders, and that means taking business away from established Japanese and S Korean shipbuilders who may be better/cheaper/quicker than us.Theuniondivvie said:
What was preventing this previously?PAW said:http://www.businessweekly.co.uk/news/engineering/construction-milestone-rrs-sir-david-attenborough - I like the idea “By investing in UK shipyards, and encouraging shipyards to work together, the UK can dramatically ramp up the number of ships it builds, converts and repairs, for the commercial and naval sectors at home and abroad."
Even more speculatively, perhaps the brexit gun is being jumped here in that we will be able to put business our own way post brexit in a way we couldn't before. And of course if we take back control of our fisheries we are going to need an expanded fishing fleet.
Somehow we managed to avoid the EEC/EC/EU screwing up our economy again in the past 38 years though - we must have got lucky I guess!0 -
When am I going to get my English citizenship? Nobody asked me if I wanted this supranational union.Mortimer said:
Not really a fair comparison is it; you get the citizenship, broadly, of the nation into which you're born.SouthamObserver said:
I was never asked if I wanted UK citizenship. I am happy to have it, though. Just as I liked the freedoms and opportunities EU citizenship gave me and my family. I am just pleased for Mr Alanbrooke that he was in the fortunate position of being able to take away rights from us that he and his family retain.Mortimer said:
I was never asked if I wanted EU citizenship.SouthamObserver said:
But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.Alanbrooke said:
@Gardenwalker
thread getting too long so reposted
In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.
Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.
I moved becasue
- I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
- I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
- I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
- the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in
I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so
I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.
The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them
The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of
I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,
It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.
Not the supranational body in which your country happens to currently be in.0 -
But what did she do when she was PM for 11 and a half years, 7 and a half of which was when she had a majority of 100+?HYUFD said:
She only signed off LA abolitions reluctantly under Heath's orders, latterly she even attended 'Friends of Grammar Schools' receptions with Graham Brady.TheScreamingEagles said:
All the evidence points to the contrary.Richard_Tyndall said:
Once again privileged public schoolboy looks for any opportunity to attack the one way of improving life chances for the poorer parts of society. You really are a disgrace.TheScreamingEagles said:
One of Mrs Thatcher's finest achievements was to abolish so many grammar schools as Education Secretary then as PM not to create any new grammars.
She knew what the evidence was pointing to.
As Thatcher said herself at the 1977 Tory conference "People from my sort of background needed grammar schools to compete with children from privileged homes like Shirley Williams and Anthony Wedgwood Benn."
The square root of bugger all.0 -
But you do get EU citizenship like that. And Alanbrooke gets to keep his having voted to remove it from me and my family. Lucky him!Mortimer said:
Not really a fair comparison is it; you get the citizenship, broadly, of the nation into which you're born.SouthamObserver said:
I was never asked if I wanted UK citizenship. I am happy to have it, though. Just as I liked the freedoms and opportunities EU citizenship gave me and my family. I am just pleased for Mr Alanbrooke that he was in the fortunate position of being able to take away rights from us that he and his family retain.Mortimer said:
I was never asked if I wanted EU citizenship.SouthamObserver said:
But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.Alanbrooke said:
@Gardenwalker
thread getting too long so reposted
In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.
Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.
I moved becasue
- I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
- I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
- I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
- the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in
I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so
I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.
The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them
The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of
I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,
It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.
Not the supranational body in which your country happens to currently be in.
0 -
Successful in what sense? In perpetuating privilege across the generations.HYUFD said:
Yes, let us abolish the two most successful types of school we have, could only have come from a socialistBenpointer said:
Yep, TSE is right we should abolish Grammar Schools... but obviously we should abolish private schools first!HYUFD said:
Ignoring the countless private schools which already do exactly the same.TheScreamingEagles said:More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.
One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.
About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.
Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.
Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.
Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades
Indeed so do some Academies, including Portslade Aldridge Community Academy according to this article
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10273823/If-your-AS-level-is-not-up-to-scratch-youre-out.html0 -
Thats not quite how we resolve political disagreements, where some benefit and others lose from the status quo, is it?Benpointer said:
Er no, exactly not like a referendum... we don't have a referendum on whether we each want to buy a house or get married... You seem to have overlooked the phrase 'individually to choose' in my post.Mortimer said:
What, like in a referendum?Benpointer said:
Fair point... so why don't we ask people individually to choose whether they want to keep it or not? You can reject yours - I'll choose to keep mine... That way everyone's happy!Mortimer said:
I was never asked if I wanted EU citizenship.SouthamObserver said:
But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.Alanbrooke said:
@Gardenwalker
thread getting too long so reposted
In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.
Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.
I moved becasue
- I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
- I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
- I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
- the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in
I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so
I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.
The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them
The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of
I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,
It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.
@Freetochoose should love my suggestion
Remainers really are not used to losing, are they....0 -
The next general election in 2019/20 will be a straight choice, full Brexit and an end to free movement under the Tories, or years of big payments to the EU, continued single market membership and unlimited free movement under LabourBenpointer said:
Dream on... if the past two years have taught us anything it's that polls outside of an election campaign are meaningless. The longer this government goes on, the more it will suffer from voter disenchantment, which eventually gets every govenrment.stevef said:That's very bad news for Labour. The polling companies after the election are presumably no longer underestimating Labour -in the case of Yougov, it wasn't in the first place. To be level pegging when Kinnock and Miliband were ahead by double digits shows again that Corbyn is a liability and that history will show that by saving Corbyn's skin, the real beneficiaries of the 2017 election will be the Tories,
0
