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  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    stodge said:

    ydoethur said:


    No, Stodge, he was a Conservative 1900-1903, a Liberal 1903-22 on the Lloyd George wing from 1916-22 (in theory again briefly in 23) an Independent 1922-25 and a Conservative from then on. He was never at any stage a Liberal Unionist or a Liberal National although in 1902 he toyed with the idea of joining a party led by Devonshire if Rosebery and Asquith would join too. That never happened so he defected instead.

    Neville Chamberlain, of course, was a Liberal Unionist and refused to be called a Conservative (in the 1929 election he still used 'Unionist' and thereafter 'National') but not Churchill.

    Also there could be questions asked about our lack of great power status simply because the US abdicated the responsibility they should have taken up. But that's a long conversation I have no energy for.

    Agree with the rest.

    Good night.

    If you're going to argue political history with me, you're going to have to do much better than that.

    I never said he was a member of a party called Liberal Unionist, there was no such party. If you prefer, he was a liberal unionist. He was so much a loyal Conservative the party tried to de-select him in his Wanstead & Woodford seat before the war.

    He was also supposedly going to join a King's Party to fight for Edward VIII to continue on the throne.

    Churchill was a Liberal Unionist - he happened to be in the Conservative Party and fortunately for us all was in the right place at the right time when the Conservative appeasers ran out of time and support in the spring of 1940.
    There was clearly a Liberal Unionist party - Hartington's followers. It's where the "and Unionist" comes from in the original "Conservative and Unionist Party".

    They still had senior ministers until the 1990s - Hurd and Mayhew (and Hailsham until 87) plus a lot of the money.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,402

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    OchEye said:

    Let's see now, if you, the atypical PB employer had an employee come up to you, and told you they were leaving but wanted to discuss the terms and conditions of their resignation, then you would probably suggest that they depart immediately, any outstanding pay or request for the return of excess will be forwarded, as per the contract signed in good faith by both sides. The employee, no matter how senior or junior they may be has no right to try and dictate how the organisation operates.

    We were not even a good member of the community, we refused to take part in many things, we were always moaning and trying to change things to our own benefit and no one else.

    Then why do so many believe that just because we are British, the other EU27 should dance to our tune?

    But, would I, the employer be making demands of the ex -employee.
    If the employee still wanted a relationship with you, yes. Which is where we are with Brexit. If we are happy to be a Tokugawa "closed country" it would be simpler. But we are supposed to be"Britain open for business" and if that means anything we have to deal with the world we live in. Above all we have to deal with the EU.

    We would be happy to have an economic/business settlement with them. They don't want one. They want political control.

    They own the system and decide who gets access to it and on what terms. They are certainly not interested in replicating the system for us on a bilateral basis just because we dislike their membership. The EU is a multilateral body, bit we don't like their multilateralism if it excludes us.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    nichomar said:

    I wish I could have such unwavering beief in a viewpoit that some leavers have. Their desire to leave is beyond question and yet I have still not seen an argument that tells how in the short or medium term it will make "things better". They treat people who try to explain their concerns with disdain and contempt.

    Indeed. The arguments for Brexit have collapsed. The only thing left is "well, we voted for it".

    I know Remainers are guilty of a world of guff too, but I search in vain for a confident articulation of Brexit today.
    Brexit is the assertion by the majority* that the current social settlement isn't working for them, and the demand that their political servants become more accountable and thus responsive to their needs.

    As with pretty much all constitutional reform in this country, it is a perfect demonstration of the error correction inherent within our system that puts elites on notice that the spoils of the day (be they power, money, culture) need to be more evenly shared and not become ever more remote.

    *who could be bothered to vote, which in my mind is significant
    My irony meter just explodes off the scale every time a partisan Tory starts talking about the need for redistribution.
    What a partisan response to a non partisan point. A shame.
    Could you please elaborate on how a Tory government post Brexit will redistribute the nations wealth away from London and the South East and towards the poorest people of Britain, and particularly in communities like the NE England or S Wales?

    In what way is this different to Corbynism?
    make Gary Lineker live in Merthyr Tydfil

    please, please, please, .... pretty, pretty please
    Gary lost his dad this week, and started life very modestly. He certainly has done well for himself but is hardly an out of touch person.

  • @Gardenwalker

    thread getting too long so reposted


    In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.

    Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.

    I moved becasue


    - I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
    - I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
    - I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
    - the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in

    I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so

    I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.

    The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them

    The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of

    I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,

    It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.

    That's about my thoughts as well.

    I would add that we needed to change from the rising house prices, falling home ownership, record current account deficit, ever increasing wealth consumption model of society.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,712
    Macron is fast turning out to be better entertainment value than Trump

    he's going to build a new world order with France as a great power

    https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article168119944/Es-ist-unsere-Pflicht-eine-neue-Weltordnung-aufzubauen.html

    hope that still looks good when the airports go on strike
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    stodge said:

    ydoethur said:


    No, Stodge, he was a Conservative 1900-1903, a Liberal 1903-22 on the Lloyd George wing from 1916-22 (in theory again briefly in 23) an Independent 1922-25 and a Conservative from then on. He was never at any stage a Liberal Unionist or a Liberal National although in 1902 he toyed with the idea of joining a party led by Devonshire if Rosebery and Asquith would join too. That never happened so he defected instead.

    Neville Chamberlain, of course, was a Liberal Unionist and refused to be called a Conservative (in the 1929 election he still used 'Unionist' and thereafter 'National') but not Churchill.

    Also there could be questions asked about our lack of great power status simply because the US abdicated the responsibility they should have taken up. But that's a long conversation I have no energy for.

    Agree with the rest.

    Good night.

    If you're going to argue political history with me, you're going to have to do much better than that.

    I never said he was a member of a party called Liberal Unionist, there was no such party. If you prefer, he was a liberal unionist. He was so much a loyal Conservative the party tried to de-select him in his Wanstead & Woodford seat before the war.

    He was also supposedly going to join a King's Party to fight for Edward VIII to continue on the throne.

    Churchill was a Liberal Unionist - he happened to be in the Conservative Party and fortunately for us all was in the right place at the right time when the Conservative appeasers ran out of time and support in the spring of 1940.
    Churchill's political positions were very reactionary and poorly received for nearly all his career, apart from a brief period in the early forties.
  • FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    OchEye said:

    Let's see now, if you, the atypical PB employer had an employee come up to you, and told you they were leaving but wanted to discuss the terms and conditions of their resignation, then you would probably suggest that they depart immediately, any outstanding pay or request for the return of excess will be forwarded, as per the contract signed in good faith by both sides. The employee, no matter how senior or junior they may be has no right to try and dictate how the organisation operates.

    We were not even a good member of the community, we refused to take part in many things, we were always moaning and trying to change things to our own benefit and no one else.

    Then why do so many believe that just because we are British, the other EU27 should dance to our tune?

    But, would I, the employer be making demands of the ex -employee.
    If the employee still wanted a relationship with you, yes. Which is where we are with Brexit. If we are happy to be a Tokugawa "closed country" it would be simpler. But we are supposed to be"Britain open for business" and if that means anything we have to deal with the world we live in. Above all we have to deal with the EU.
    Of course the problem is that the analogy is rubbish. We were not an employee of the EU, we were supposedly an equal partner, though in fact that was an illusion. We are leaving taking with us a significant portion of the businesses capital and customers. We are also taking some key assets and specialists which the rest of the company rely upon. Many of the remaining partners face significant difficulties if the board decide not to deal with us in a manner to our mutual benefit.

    That is not to say they will not choose that course but it will ultimately be to their detriment as well as ours.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,726
    stodge said:

    ydoethur said:


    No, Stodge, he was a Conservative 1900-1903, a Liberal 1903-22 on the Lloyd George wing from 1916-22 (in theory again briefly in 23) an Independent 1922-25 and a Conservative from then on. He was never at any stage a Liberal Unionist or a Liberal National although in 1902 he toyed with the idea of joining a party led by Devonshire if Rosebery and Asquith would join too. That never happened so he defected instead.

    Neville Chamberlain, of course, was a Liberal Unionist and refused to be called a Conservative (in the 1929 election he still used 'Unionist' and thereafter 'National') but not Churchill.

    Also there could be questions asked about our lack of great power status simply because the US abdicated the responsibility they should have taken up. But that's a long conversation I have no energy for.

    Agree with the rest.

    Good night.

    If you're going to argue political history with me, you're going to have to do much better than that.

    I never said he was a member of a party called Liberal Unionist, there was no such party. If you prefer, he was a liberal unionist. He was so much a loyal Conservative the party tried to de-select him in his Wanstead & Woodford seat before the war.

    He was also supposedly going to join a King's Party to fight for Edward VIII to continue on the throne.

    Churchill was a Liberal Unionist - he happened to be in the Conservative Party and fortunately for us all was in the right place at the right time when the Conservative appeasers ran out of time and support in the spring of 1940.
    There was a Liberal Unionist party, till 1912, but Churchill was not sympathetic to it. Post 1912, people ran as Liberal Unionist, Unionist, in Scotland, while taking the Conservative whip.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    OchEye said:

    Let's see now, if you, the atypical PB employer had an employee come up to you, and told you they were leaving but wanted to discuss the terms and conditions of their resignation, then you would probably suggest that they depart immediately, any outstanding pay or request for the return of excess will be forwarded, as per the contract signed in good faith by both sides. The employee, no matter how senior or junior they may be has no right to try and dictate how the organisation operates.

    We were not even a good member of the community, we refused to take part in many things, we were always moaning and trying to change things to our own benefit and no one else.

    Then why do so many believe that just because we are British, the other EU27 should dance to our tune?

    But, would I, the employer be making demands of the ex -employee.
    If the employee still wanted a relationship with you, yes. Which is where we are with Brexit. If we are happy to be a Tokugawa "closed country" it would be simpler. But we are supposed to be"Britain open for business" and if that means anything we have to deal with the world we live in. Above all we have to deal with the EU.

    We would be happy to have an economic/business settlement with them. They don't want one. They want political control.

    They own the system and decide who gets access to it and on what terms. They are certainly not interested in replicating the system for us on a bilateral basis just because we dislike their membership. The EU is a multilateral body, bit we don't like their multilateralism if it excludes us.
    That's fine - in that case there are no exit liabilities and we get our assets back. Short sighted of them though
  • My thanks to AndyJS for putting up the Betfair cricket odds on Sunday.

    Hows that Northern Powerhouse going ?

    I expect it's all built now
    Its all a bit bizarre in South Yorkshire - lots of houses, shops and industrial units are being built.

    Now I can understand the houses but there's already no shortage of retail and industrial units which have 'To Let' signs on them.

    So we're either going to have an economic boom along the M18 or we're in the later stages of a property speculation bubble.
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    Brexit looks increasingly unlikely. Bet the EU is buy baking us a humble pie.
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    http://www.businessweekly.co.uk/news/engineering/construction-milestone-rrs-sir-david-attenborough - I like the idea “By investing in UK shipyards, and encouraging shipyards to work together, the UK can dramatically ramp up the number of ships it builds, converts and repairs, for the commercial and naval sectors at home and abroad."
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    "British negotiators said to have asked EU officials about legal principles Brussels believes should be used to calculate exit bill" - awkward.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    PAW said:

    "British negotiators said to have asked EU officials about legal principles Brussels believes should be used to calculate exit bill" - awkward.


    "Because we said so".

  • Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    OchEye said:

    Let's see now, if you, the atypical PB employer had an employee come up to you, and told you they were leaving but wanted to discuss the terms and conditions of their resignation, then you would probably suggest that they depart immediately, any outstanding pay or request for the return of excess will be forwarded, as per the contract signed in good faith by both sides. The employee, no matter how senior or junior they may be has no right to try and dictate how the organisation operates.

    We were not even a good member of the community, we refused to take part in many things, we were always moaning and trying to change things to our own benefit and no one else.

    Then why do so many believe that just because we are British, the other EU27 should dance to our tune?

    But, would I, the employer be making demands of the ex -employee.
    If the employee still wanted a relationship with you, yes. Which is where we are with Brexit. If we are happy to be a Tokugawa "closed country" it would be simpler. But we are supposed to be"Britain open for business" and if that means anything we have to deal with the world we live in. Above all we have to deal with the EU.

    We would be happy to have an economic/business settlement with them. They don't want one. They want political control.

    They own the system and decide who gets access to it and on what terms. They are certainly not interested in replicating the system for us on a bilateral basis just because we dislike their membership. The EU is a multilateral body, bit we don't like their multilateralism if it excludes us.
    That's fine - in that case there are no exit liabilities and we get our assets back. Short sighted of them though

    No exit bill for sure. Good luck with the assets, though. And the economy.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    PAW said:

    "British negotiators said to have asked EU officials about legal principles Brussels believes should be used to calculate exit bill" - awkward.


    "Because we said so".

    Juncker said that request wasn't constructive as there were to be no detailed discussions until we'd agreed the amount...
  • FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    OchEye said:

    Let's see now, if you, the atypical PB employer had an employee come up to you, and told you they were leaving but wanted to discuss the terms and conditions of their resignation, then you would probably suggest that they depart immediately, any outstanding pay or request for the return of excess will be forwarded, as per the contract signed in good faith by both sides. The employee, no matter how senior or junior they may be has no right to try and dictate how the organisation operates.

    We were not even a good member of the community, we refused to take part in many things, we were always moaning and trying to change things to our own benefit and no one else.

    Then why do so many believe that just because we are British, the other EU27 should dance to our tune?

    But, would I, the employer be making demands of the ex -employee.
    If the employee still wanted a relationship with you, yes. Which is where we are with Brexit. If we are happy to be a Tokugawa "closed country" it would be simpler. But we are supposed to be"Britain open for business" and if that means anything we have to deal with the world we live in. Above all we have to deal with the EU.
    Of course the problem is that the analogy is rubbish. We were not an employee of the EU, we were supposedly an equal partner, though in fact that was an illusion. We are leaving taking with us a significant portion of the businesses capital and customers. We are also taking some key assets and specialists which the rest of the company rely upon. Many of the remaining partners face significant difficulties if the board decide not to deal with us in a manner to our mutual benefit.

    That is not to say they will not choose that course but it will ultimately be to their detriment as well as ours.

    Yep. But we suffer the most - having been promised sunlit uplands and increased prosperity.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    OchEye said:

    Let's see now, if you, the atypical PB employer had an employee come up to you, and told you they were leaving but wanted to discuss the terms and conditions of their resignation, then you would probably suggest that they depart immediately, any outstanding pay or request for the return of excess will be forwarded, as per the contract signed in good faith by both sides. The employee, no matter how senior or junior they may be has no right to try and dictate how the organisation operates.

    We were not even a good member of the community, we refused to take part in many things, we were always moaning and trying to change things to our own benefit and no one else.

    Then why do so many believe that just because we are British, the other EU27 should dance to our tune?

    But, would I, the employer be making demands of the ex -employee.
    If the employee still wanted a relationship with you, yes. Which is where we are with Brexit. If we are happy to be a Tokugawa "closed country" it would be simpler. But we are supposed to be"Britain open for business" and if that means anything we have to deal with the world we live in. Above all we have to deal with the EU.

    We would be happy to have an economic/business settlement with them. They don't want one. They want political control.

    They own the system and decide who gets access to it and on what terms. They are certainly not interested in replicating the system for us on a bilateral basis just because we dislike their membership. The EU is a multilateral body, bit we don't like their multilateralism if it excludes us.
    That's fine - in that case there are no exit liabilities and we get our assets back. Short sighted of them though

    No exit bill for sure. Good luck with the assets, though. And the economy.
    Great. The EIB can wire our money back to us then
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,357
    PAW said:

    http://www.businessweekly.co.uk/news/engineering/construction-milestone-rrs-sir-david-attenborough - I like the idea “By investing in UK shipyards, and encouraging shipyards to work together, the UK can dramatically ramp up the number of ships it builds, converts and repairs, for the commercial and naval sectors at home and abroad."

    What was preventing this previously?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

  • @Gardenwalker

    thread getting too long so reposted


    In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.

    Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.

    I moved becasue


    - I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
    - I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
    - I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
    - the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in

    I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so

    I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.

    The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them

    The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of

    I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,

    It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.

    But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Ave_it said:

    Watford!

    Unbeaten in last 3 premier league games!

    Just like CON unbeaten in last 3 big tournaments 2010-2015-2017!

    Well done on Watford's good start though you've had a fairly easy run in. Watford's success a great example of cross-Europe partnership something that is so important to demonstrate at this time. English cub owned by an Italian with a Portuguese manager.
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    edited August 2017
    Theuniondivvie - I remember the EU blocked support for a major east coast shipyard, which closed - and allowed support for a German shipyard - at the same time.

    The advantage of leaving the EU I see is that we can bring back industries to the UK.
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    OchEye said:

    Let's see now, if you, the atypical PB employer had an employee come up to you, and told you they were leaving but wanted to discuss the terms and conditions of their resignation, then you would probably suggest that they depart immediately, any outstanding pay or request for the return of excess will be forwarded, as per the contract signed in good faith by both sides. The employee, no matter how senior or junior they may be has no right to try and dictate how the organisation operates.

    We were not even a good member of the community, we refused to take part in many things, we were always moaning and trying to change things to our own benefit and no one else.

    Then why do so many believe that just because we are British, the other EU27 should dance to our tune?

    But, would I, the employer be making demands of the ex -employee.
    If the employee still wanted a relationship with you, yes. Which is where we are with Brexit. If we are happy to be a Tokugawa "closed country" it would be simpler. But we are supposed to be"Britain open for business" and if that means anything we have to deal with the world we live in. Above all we have to deal with the EU.

    We would be happy to have an economic/business settlement with them. They don't want one. They want political control.

    They own the system and decide who gets access to it and on what terms. They are certainly not interested in replicating the system for us on a bilateral basis just because we dislike their membership. The EU is a multilateral body, bit we don't like their multilateralism if it excludes us.
    That's fine - in that case there are no exit liabilities and we get our assets back. Short sighted of them though

    No exit bill for sure. Good luck with the assets, though. And the economy.
    Great. The EIB can wire our money back to us then

    I am sure they will if we ask nicely :-D

  • Scott_P said:
    Remind us what the UK's current account balance for the last five years has been ?

    A deficit of half a trillion quid sounds vaguely familiar.

    What was it that George Osborne said about borrowing money from abroad to buy things from abroad being unsustainable ?

    I'm sure you can find the tweet, I think it was from before the 2010 general election.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    PAW said:

    http://www.businessweekly.co.uk/news/engineering/construction-milestone-rrs-sir-david-attenborough - I like the idea “By investing in UK shipyards, and encouraging shipyards to work together, the UK can dramatically ramp up the number of ships it builds, converts and repairs, for the commercial and naval sectors at home and abroad."

    What was preventing this previously?
    Oh! Nationalise the shipyards, Wow! What a brilliant idea, wonder why no one has ever thought of that!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    edited August 2017

    My thanks to AndyJS for putting up the Betfair cricket odds on Sunday.

    Hows that Northern Powerhouse going ?

    I expect it's all built now
    Its all a bit bizarre in South Yorkshire - lots of houses, shops and industrial units are being built.

    Now I can understand the houses but there's already no shortage of retail and industrial units which have 'To Let' signs on them.

    So we're either going to have an economic boom along the M18 or we're in the later stages of a property speculation bubble.
    For what it's worth, which may be not much, we went back to Selby for a few days last week, where we lived for 6 years until 2009.

    It definitely felt like it was thriving, which was great to see. While we lived there it still seemed to be suffering from the after effects of disappearing industry and mining. Not sure whether it's now benefitting from commuter spillover from Leeds and York but good to see it feeling less run-down than 10 years ago.

    Edit: Strangely sad though to see Ferrybridge power station closed and Eggborough now only on stand-by. I know they are not good for the environment but they used to have a weird beauty - huge 'cloud factories' alongside the M62. Only Drax now still pumping out the clouds :disappointed:
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    PAW said:

    Theuniondivvie - I remember the EU blocked support for a major east coast shipyard, which closed - and allowed support for a German shipyard - at the same time.

    The advantage of leaving the EU I see is that we can bring back industries to the UK.

    No doubt the free trade deal abolishing tariffs on Australian iron ore and coal will be a great boost for our iron and steel industry.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,357
    PAW said:

    Theuniondivvie - I remember the EU blocked support for a major east coast shipyard, which closed - and allowed support for a German shipyard - at the same time.

    The advantage of leaving the EU I see is that we can bring back industries to the UK.

    Have you a link for that?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,726
    PAW said:

    "British negotiators said to have asked EU officials about legal principles Brussels believes should be used to calculate exit bill" - awkward.

    "Legal principles? What are those?"
  • My thanks to AndyJS for putting up the Betfair cricket odds on Sunday.

    Hows that Northern Powerhouse going ?

    I expect it's all built now
    Its all a bit bizarre in South Yorkshire - lots of houses, shops and industrial units are being built.

    Now I can understand the houses but there's already no shortage of retail and industrial units which have 'To Let' signs on them.

    So we're either going to have an economic boom along the M18 or we're in the later stages of a property speculation bubble.
    So there is a capacity there to grow and for businesses to develop in those areas. Sounds positive.

    There is an element of truth to that oft-misquoted Field of Dreams line.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    PAW said:

    http://www.businessweekly.co.uk/news/engineering/construction-milestone-rrs-sir-david-attenborough - I like the idea “By investing in UK shipyards, and encouraging shipyards to work together, the UK can dramatically ramp up the number of ships it builds, converts and repairs, for the commercial and naval sectors at home and abroad."

    What was preventing this previously?
    The thought that it might not work, at a guess. I assume that we don't have enough domestic demand to support a shipbuilding industry, so we will have to attract overseas orders, and that means taking business away from established Japanese and S Korean shipbuilders who may be better/cheaper/quicker than us.

    Even more speculatively, perhaps the brexit gun is being jumped here in that we will be able to put business our own way post brexit in a way we couldn't before. And of course if we take back control of our fisheries we are going to need an expanded fishing fleet.
  • Interesting article in the Telegraph re a transition deal. Apparently any transition deal could not be agreed beyond two years as it would be subject to legal challenge on the grounds that it is extending the existing trade without addressing leaving the EU and that it could be a vehicle just to delay the process. The legal challenge could come even if the extension was mutually agreed between UK and the EU.

    Also the seven year EU budget concludes in 2020 and the UK will have no further obligation for the next seven year EU budget
  • PAW said:

    Theuniondivvie - I remember the EU blocked support for a major east coast shipyard, which closed - and allowed support for a German shipyard - at the same time.

    The advantage of leaving the EU I see is that we can bring back industries to the UK.

    No doubt the free trade deal abolishing tariffs on Australian iron ore and coal will be a great boost for our iron and steel industry.
    Absolutely! Abolishing agricultural tariffs and subsidies in New Zealand proved a great spur for developing their agricultural sector.

    Tariffs don't work. They never have done.
  • More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.

    One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.

    About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.

    Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.

    Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.

    Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.


    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades
  • stodge said:

    ydoethur said:


    No, Stodge, he was a Conservative 1900-1903, a Liberal 1903-22 on the Lloyd George wing from 1916-22 (in theory again briefly in 23) an Independent 1922-25 and a Conservative from then on. He was never at any stage a Liberal Unionist or a Liberal National although in 1902 he toyed with the idea of joining a party led by Devonshire if Rosebery and Asquith would join too. That never happened so he defected instead.

    Neville Chamberlain, of course, was a Liberal Unionist and refused to be called a Conservative (in the 1929 election he still used 'Unionist' and thereafter 'National') but not Churchill.

    Also there could be questions asked about our lack of great power status simply because the US abdicated the responsibility they should have taken up. But that's a long conversation I have no energy for.

    Agree with the rest.

    Good night.

    If you're going to argue political history with me, you're going to have to do much better than that.

    I never said he was a member of a party called Liberal Unionist, there was no such party. If you prefer, he was a liberal unionist. He was so much a loyal Conservative the party tried to de-select him in his Wanstead & Woodford seat before the war.

    He was also supposedly going to join a King's Party to fight for Edward VIII to continue on the throne.

    Churchill was a Liberal Unionist - he happened to be in the Conservative Party and fortunately for us all was in the right place at the right time when the Conservative appeasers ran out of time and support in the spring of 1940.
    Churchill's political positions were very reactionary and poorly received for nearly all his career, apart from a brief period in the early forties.
    Nor were his periods in government particularly successful.

    He only really came good as PM in 1940 and as Munitions Minster in 1917.
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    OchEye - fincantieri builds cruise ships effectively, even though it is part owned by the Italian government. Perhaps the problem is not state ownership, but the idea of state ownership as a step to a socialist revolution.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    PAW said:

    Theuniondivvie - I remember the EU blocked support for a major east coast shipyard, which closed - and allowed support for a German shipyard - at the same time.

    The advantage of leaving the EU I see is that we can bring back industries to the UK.

    No doubt the free trade deal abolishing tariffs on Australian iron ore and coal will be a great boost for our iron and steel industry.
    Absolutely! Abolishing agricultural tariffs and subsidies in New Zealand proved a great spur for developing their agricultural sector.

    Tariffs don't work. They never have done.
    Remind me what the tariff on iron ore is :)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    edited August 2017

    More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.

    One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.

    About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.

    Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.

    Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.

    Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.


    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades

    Ignoring the countless private schools which already do exactly the same.

    Indeed so do some Academies, including Portslade Aldridge Community Academy according to this article


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10273823/If-your-AS-level-is-not-up-to-scratch-youre-out.html
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    edited August 2017

    Ave_it said:

    Watford!

    Unbeaten in last 3 premier league games!

    Just like CON unbeaten in last 3 big tournaments 2010-2015-2017!

    Well done on Watford's good start though you've had a fairly easy run in. Watford's success a great example of cross-Europe partnership something that is so important to demonstrate at this time. English cub owned by an Italian with a Portuguese manager.
    Hello Mike!

    Fairly easy? We got a point against the mighty LIVERPOOL!

    We CONS love working in a constructive relationship with Europe with TMay and DDavis leading the way!

    Good luck to Burnley too - we like Sean Dyche
  • More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.

    One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.

    About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.

    Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.

    Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.

    Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.


    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades

    Once again privileged public schoolboy looks for any opportunity to attack the one way of improving life chances for the poorer parts of society. You really are a disgrace.
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    Perhaps we should give all children the advantages of a public school education, by letting the children cheat on examinations?
  • Fenman said:

    Brexit looks increasingly unlikely. Bet the EU is buy baking us a humble pie.

    And the evidence for that rather bizarre claim is what exactly?
  • More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.

    One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.

    About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.

    Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.

    Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.

    Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.


    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades

    Once again privileged public schoolboy looks for any opportunity to attack the one way of improving life chances for the poorer parts of society. You really are a disgrace.
    TSE failed his 11+ :lol:
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    HYUFD said:

    More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.

    One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.

    About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.

    Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.

    Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.

    Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.


    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades

    Ignoring the countless private schools which already do exactly the same.

    Indeed so do some Academies, including Portslade Aldridge Community Academy according to this article


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10273823/If-your-AS-level-is-not-up-to-scratch-youre-out.html
    Yep, TSE is right we should abolish Grammar Schools... but obviously we should abolish private schools first!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    HYUFD said:

    More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.

    One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.

    About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.

    Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.

    Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.

    Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.


    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades

    Ignoring the countless private schools which already do exactly the same.

    Indeed so do some Academies, including Portslade Aldridge Community Academy according to this article


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10273823/If-your-AS-level-is-not-up-to-scratch-youre-out.html
    Chucking out the noddies is a very effective way of climbing the league table. Much easier than value added, or leaking exam papers as per Eton too.
  • My thanks to AndyJS for putting up the Betfair cricket odds on Sunday.

    Hows that Northern Powerhouse going ?

    I expect it's all built now
    Its all a bit bizarre in South Yorkshire - lots of houses, shops and industrial units are being built.

    Now I can understand the houses but there's already no shortage of retail and industrial units which have 'To Let' signs on them.

    So we're either going to have an economic boom along the M18 or we're in the later stages of a property speculation bubble.
    For what it's worth, which may be not much, we went back to Selby for a few days last week, where we lived for 6 years until 2009.

    It definitely felt like it was thriving, which was great to see. While we lived there it still seemed to be suffering from the after effects of disappearing industry and mining. Not sure whether it's now benefitting from commuter spillover from Leeds and York but good to see it feeling less run-down than 10 years ago.

    Edit: Strangely sad though to see Ferrybridge power station closed and Eggborough now only on stand-by. I know they are not good for the environment but they used to have a weird beauty - huge 'cloud factories' alongside the M62. Only Drax now still pumping out the clouds :disappointed:
    They should definitely preserve some of the coal power stations - they're like the cathedrals of the post war era.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    Ishmael_Z said:

    PAW said:

    http://www.businessweekly.co.uk/news/engineering/construction-milestone-rrs-sir-david-attenborough - I like the idea “By investing in UK shipyards, and encouraging shipyards to work together, the UK can dramatically ramp up the number of ships it builds, converts and repairs, for the commercial and naval sectors at home and abroad."

    What was preventing this previously?
    The thought that it might not work, at a guess. I assume that we don't have enough domestic demand to support a shipbuilding industry, so we will have to attract overseas orders, and that means taking business away from established Japanese and S Korean shipbuilders who may be better/cheaper/quicker than us.

    Even more speculatively, perhaps the brexit gun is being jumped here in that we will be able to put business our own way post brexit in a way we couldn't before. And of course if we take back control of our fisheries we are going to need an expanded fishing fleet.
    Ah yes, because we really used to make such a good job of running our businesses back in the early 70s before we joned the EEC!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,726

    More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.

    One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.

    About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.

    Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.

    Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.

    Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.


    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades

    Once again privileged public schoolboy looks for any opportunity to attack the one way of improving life chances for the poorer parts of society. You really are a disgrace.
    A good school for me, but not for thee.
  • More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.

    One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.

    About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.

    Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.

    Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.

    Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.


    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades

    Once again privileged public schoolboy looks for any opportunity to attack the one way of improving life chances for the poorer parts of society. You really are a disgrace.
    All the evidence points to the contrary.

    One of Mrs Thatcher's finest achievements was to abolish so many grammar schools as Education Secretary then as PM not to create any new grammars.

    She knew what the evidence was pointing to.
  • More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.

    One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.

    About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.

    Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.

    Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.

    Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.


    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades

    Once again privileged public schoolboy looks for any opportunity to attack the one way of improving life chances for the poorer parts of society. You really are a disgrace.
    TSE failed his 11+ :lol:
    I passed my 11+/entry exam with flying colours.
  • PAW said:

    Theuniondivvie - I remember the EU blocked support for a major east coast shipyard, which closed - and allowed support for a German shipyard - at the same time.

    The advantage of leaving the EU I see is that we can bring back industries to the UK.

    No doubt the free trade deal abolishing tariffs on Australian iron ore and coal will be a great boost for our iron and steel industry.
    Absolutely! Abolishing agricultural tariffs and subsidies in New Zealand proved a great spur for developing their agricultural sector.

    Tariffs don't work. They never have done.
    Remind me what the tariff on iron ore is :)
    No idea. If its zero and you were being silly then dropping tariffs in general is still a good idea and will be an economic spur still.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    nichomar said:

    I wish I could have such unwavering beief in a viewpoit that some leavers have. Their desire to leave is beyond question and yet I have still not seen an argument that tells how in the short or medium term it will make "things better". They treat people who try to explain their concerns with disdain and contempt.

    Indeed. The arguments for Brexit have collapsed. The only thing left is "well, we voted for it".

    I know Remainers are guilty of a world of guff too, but I search in vain for a confident articulation of Brexit today.
    Brexit is the assertion by the majority* that the current social settlement isn't working for them, and the demand that their political servants become more accountable and thus responsive to their needs.

    As with pretty much all constitutional reform in this country, it is a perfect demonstration of the error correction inherent within our system that puts elites on notice that the spoils of the day (be they power, money, culture) need to be more evenly shared and not become ever more remote.

    *who could be bothered to vote, which in my mind is significant
    My irony meter just explodes off the scale every time a partisan Tory starts talking about the need for redistribution.
    What a partisan response to a non partisan point. A shame.
    Could you please elaborate on how a Tory government post Brexit will redistribute the nations wealth away from London and the South East and towards the poorest people of Britain, and particularly in communities like the NE England or S Wales?

    In what way is this different to Corbynism?
    A few ways just for starters:

    - revoking freedom of movement should stimulate wage growth. As noted by Lord Rose
    - revoking freedom of movement will encourage business to invest in people, and technology, that will lead to higher productivity

    But its not all about money - it is also about culture, and power. Both of which will be more focused within our borders post Brexit.
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    PAW said:

    http://www.businessweekly.co.uk/news/engineering/construction-milestone-rrs-sir-david-attenborough - I like the idea “By investing in UK shipyards, and encouraging shipyards to work together, the UK can dramatically ramp up the number of ships it builds, converts and repairs, for the commercial and naval sectors at home and abroad."

    What was preventing this previously?
    The thought that it might not work, at a guess. I assume that we don't have enough domestic demand to support a shipbuilding industry, so we will have to attract overseas orders, and that means taking business away from established Japanese and S Korean shipbuilders who may be better/cheaper/quicker than us.

    Even more speculatively, perhaps the brexit gun is being jumped here in that we will be able to put business our own way post brexit in a way we couldn't before. And of course if we take back control of our fisheries we are going to need an expanded fishing fleet.
    Ah yes, because we really used to make such a good job of running our businesses back in the early 70s before we joned the EEC!
    Stupid comment. The massive scale of nationalised industry even under the Tories in the 70s makes any such comparison ludicrous.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Ave_it said:

    Ave_it said:

    Watford!

    Unbeaten in last 3 premier league games!

    Just like CON unbeaten in last 3 big tournaments 2010-2015-2017!

    Well done on Watford's good start though you've had a fairly easy run in. Watford's success a great example of cross-Europe partnership something that is so important to demonstrate at this time. English cub owned by an Italian with a Portuguese manager.
    Hello Mike!

    Fairly easy? We got a point against the mighty LIVERPOOL!

    We CONS love working in a constructive relationship with Europe with TMay and DDavis leading the way!

    Good luck to Burnley too - we like Sean Dyche
    Thanks. We got THREE points at Chelsea away and then drew with Spurs away though that's less of a big deal given how poor are at their temporary home ground.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    That's very bad news for Labour. The polling companies after the election are presumably no longer underestimating Labour -in the case of Yougov, it wasn't in the first place. To be level pegging when Kinnock and Miliband were ahead by double digits shows again that Corbyn is a liability and that history will show that by saving Corbyn's skin, the real beneficiaries of the 2017 election will be the Tories,
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726
    edited August 2017

    More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.

    One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.

    About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.

    Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.

    Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.

    Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.


    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades

    Once again privileged public schoolboy looks for any opportunity to attack the one way of improving life chances for the poorer parts of society. You really are a disgrace.
    All the evidence points to the contrary.

    One of Mrs Thatcher's finest achievements was to abolish so many grammar schools as Education Secretary then as PM not to create any new grammars.

    She knew what the evidence was pointing to.
    Actually the evidence does not. Read the Sutton Trust report for the actual facts rather than your ignorant elitist bias.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    OchEye said:

    Let's see now, if you, the atypical PB employer had an employee come up to you, and told you they were leaving but wanted to discuss the terms and conditions of their resignation, then you would probably suggest that they depart immediately, any outstanding pay or request for the return of excess will be forwarded, as per the contract signed in good faith by both sides. The employee, no matter how senior or junior they may be has no right to try and dictate how the organisation operates.

    We were not even a good member of the community, we refused to take part in many things, we were always moaning and trying to change things to our own benefit and no one else.

    Then why do so many believe that just because we are British, the other EU27 should dance to our tune?

    But, would I, the employer be making demands of the ex -employee.
    If the employee still wanted a relationship with you, yes. Which is where we are with Brexit. If we are happy to be a Tokugawa "closed country" it would be simpler. But we are supposed to be"Britain open for business" and if that means anything we have to deal with the world we live in. Above all we have to deal with the EU.
    Of course the problem is that the analogy is rubbish. We were not an employee of the EU, we were supposedly an equal partner, though in fact that was an illusion. We are leaving taking with us a significant portion of the businesses capital and customers. We are also taking some key assets and specialists which the rest of the company rely upon. Many of the remaining partners face significant difficulties if the board decide not to deal with us in a manner to our mutual benefit.

    That is not to say they will not choose that course but it will ultimately be to their detriment as well as ours.
    We will be taking very little and giving away too much. Most of EU will be quite happy sourcing suppliers and customers from within, while most of our businesses will, if they wish to do business in a far larger market without tariffs or penalties, move their capabilities to within the EU27. After all, within the EU, they will already be able to to trade worldwide within existing trading treaties, while if they stay within the UK, they will have wait until Westminster gets around to it with all the other 170 odd countries.
    Stay or go, hmm! If you were running a large company, financial, manufacturing or service, what would you do? 60 million increasingly ageing population with a dodgy currency or 350 plus million expanding with a strong currency. Let me think!
    Standard Life Aberdeen is already organising a name plate move to Dublin and could quite easily move it's corporate HQ there or to Germany.
  • Sean_F said:

    More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.

    One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.

    About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.

    Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.

    Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.

    Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.


    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades

    Once again privileged public schoolboy looks for any opportunity to attack the one way of improving life chances for the poorer parts of society. You really are a disgrace.
    A good school for me, but not for thee.
    Yep. Kind of sums up TSE's attitude to everything these days. I'm alright Jack and screw everyone else.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849

    My thanks to AndyJS for putting up the Betfair cricket odds on Sunday.

    Hows that Northern Powerhouse going ?

    I expect it's all built now
    Its all a bit bizarre in South Yorkshire - lots of houses, shops and industrial units are being built.

    Now I can understand the houses but there's already no shortage of retail and industrial units which have 'To Let' signs on them.

    So we're either going to have an economic boom along the M18 or we're in the later stages of a property speculation bubble.
    For what it's worth, which may be not much, we went back to Selby for a few days last week, where we lived for 6 years until 2009.

    It definitely felt like it was thriving, which was great to see. While we lived there it still seemed to be suffering from the after effects of disappearing industry and mining. Not sure whether it's now benefitting from commuter spillover from Leeds and York but good to see it feeling less run-down than 10 years ago.

    Edit: Strangely sad though to see Ferrybridge power station closed and Eggborough now only on stand-by. I know they are not good for the environment but they used to have a weird beauty - huge 'cloud factories' alongside the M62. Only Drax now still pumping out the clouds :disappointed:
    They should definitely preserve some of the coal power stations - they're like the cathedrals of the post war era.
    I am sure that one or two will be preserved in some form... Drax maybe, when the wind farms and solar have taken over.

    It's been done already of course a couple of times in London.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    PAW said:

    Theuniondivvie - I remember the EU blocked support for a major east coast shipyard, which closed - and allowed support for a German shipyard - at the same time.

    The advantage of leaving the EU I see is that we can bring back industries to the UK.

    No doubt the free trade deal abolishing tariffs on Australian iron ore and coal will be a great boost for our iron and steel industry.
    Absolutely! Abolishing agricultural tariffs and subsidies in New Zealand proved a great spur for developing their agricultural sector.

    Tariffs don't work. They never have done.
    Remind me what the tariff on iron ore is :)
    No idea. If its zero and you were being silly then dropping tariffs in general is still a good idea and will be an economic spur still.
    The EU has been one of the major drivers of reduced tariff barriers in the WTO, in large part due to our input.
  • More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.

    One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.

    About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.

    Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.

    Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.

    Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.


    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades

    Once again privileged public schoolboy looks for any opportunity to attack the one way of improving life chances for the poorer parts of society. You really are a disgrace.
    TSE failed his 11+ :lol:
    I passed my 11+/entry exam with flying colours.
    You couldn't get into grammar school, so that's why you were sent to public school.
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    PAW said:

    http://www.businessweekly.co.uk/news/engineering/construction-milestone-rrs-sir-david-attenborough - I like the idea “By investing in UK shipyards, and encouraging shipyards to work together, the UK can dramatically ramp up the number of ships it builds, converts and repairs, for the commercial and naval sectors at home and abroad."

    What was preventing this previously?
    The thought that it might not work, at a guess. I assume that we don't have enough domestic demand to support a shipbuilding industry, so we will have to attract overseas orders, and that means taking business away from established Japanese and S Korean shipbuilders who may be better/cheaper/quicker than us.

    Even more speculatively, perhaps the brexit gun is being jumped here in that we will be able to put business our own way post brexit in a way we couldn't before. And of course if we take back control of our fisheries we are going to need an expanded fishing fleet.
    Ah yes, because we really used to make such a good job of running our businesses back in the early 70s before we joned the EEC!
    Businesses really boomed from 73 to 79! Everyone remembers fondly the Winter of Contentedness in 1978/79 when after more than half a decade in the EEC there was sunshine, roses and economic growth for everybody!
  • PAW said:

    Theuniondivvie - I remember the EU blocked support for a major east coast shipyard, which closed - and allowed support for a German shipyard - at the same time.

    The advantage of leaving the EU I see is that we can bring back industries to the UK.

    No doubt the free trade deal abolishing tariffs on Australian iron ore and coal will be a great boost for our iron and steel industry.
    Absolutely! Abolishing agricultural tariffs and subsidies in New Zealand proved a great spur for developing their agricultural sector.

    Tariffs don't work. They never have done.
    Remind me what the tariff on iron ore is :)
    No idea. If its zero and you were being silly then dropping tariffs in general is still a good idea and will be an economic spur still.
    The EU has been one of the major drivers of reduced tariff barriers in the WTO, in large part due to our input.
    Now we can give our input directly to the WTO ourselves rather than being one voice in a choir of 28.
  • Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    nichomar said:

    I wish I could have such unwavering beief in a viewpoit that some leavers have. Their desire to leave is beyond question and yet I have still not seen an argument that tells how in the short or medium term it will make "things better". They treat people who try to explain their concerns with disdain and contempt.

    Indeed. The arguments for Brexit have collapsed. The only thing left is "well, we voted for it".

    I know Remainers are guilty of a world of guff too, but I search in vain for a confident articulation of Brexit today.
    Brexit is the assertion by the majority* that the current social settlement isn't working for them, and the demand that their political servants become more accountable and thus responsive to their needs.

    As with pretty much all constitutional reform in this country, it is a perfect demonstration of the error correction inherent within our system that puts elites on notice that the spoils of the day (be they power, money, culture) need to be more evenly shared and not become ever more remote.

    *who could be bothered to vote, which in my mind is significant
    My irony meter just explodes off the scale every time a partisan Tory starts talking about the need for redistribution.
    What a partisan response to a non partisan point. A shame.
    Could you please elaborate on how a Tory government post Brexit will redistribute the nations wealth away from London and the South East and towards the poorest people of Britain, and particularly in communities like the NE England or S Wales?

    In what way is this different to Corbynism?
    A few ways just for starters:

    - revoking freedom of movement should stimulate wage growth. As noted by Lord Rose
    - revoking freedom of movement will encourage business to invest in people, and technology, that will lead to higher productivity

    But its not all about money - it is also about culture, and power. Both of which will be more focused within our borders post Brexit.

    Which industries will see the most significant wage growth most quickly, do you think?

  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158


    @Gardenwalker

    thread getting too long so reposted


    In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.

    Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.

    I moved becasue


    - I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
    - I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
    - I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
    - the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in

    I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so

    I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.

    The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them

    The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of

    I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,

    It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.

    But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.

    I was never asked if I wanted EU citizenship.

  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    4 years 9 months to #GE2022!

    4-0
    4-0
    4-0

    2010 2015 2017 2022 :lol:
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    stevef said:

    That's very bad news for Labour. The polling companies after the election are presumably no longer underestimating Labour -in the case of Yougov, it wasn't in the first place. To be level pegging when Kinnock and Miliband were ahead by double digits shows again that Corbyn is a liability and that history will show that by saving Corbyn's skin, the real beneficiaries of the 2017 election will be the Tories,

    Dream on... if the past two years have taught us anything it's that polls outside of an election campaign are meaningless. The longer this government goes on, the more it will suffer from voter disenchantment, which eventually gets every govenrment.
  • OchEye said:

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    OchEye said:

    Let's see now, if you, the atypical PB employer had an employee come up to you, and told you they were leaving but wanted to discuss the terms and conditions of their resignation, then you would probably suggest that they depart immediately, any outstanding pay or request for the return of excess will be forwarded, as per the contract signed in good faith by both sides. The employee, no matter how senior or junior they may be has no right to try and dictate how the organisation operates.

    We were not even a good member of the community, we refused to take part in many things, we were always moaning and trying to change things to our own benefit and no one else.

    Then why do so many believe that just because we are British, the other EU27 should dance to our tune?

    But, would I, the employer be making demands of the ex -employee.
    If the employee stillf that means anything we have to deal with the world we live in. Above all we have to deal with the EU.
    Of course the problemers. We are also taking some key assets and specialists which the rest of the company rely upon. Many of the remaining partners face significant difficulties if the board decide not to deal with us in a manner to our mutual benefit.

    That is not to say they will not choose that course but it will ultimately be to their detriment as well as ours.
    We will be taking very little and giving away too much. Most of EU will be quite happy sourcing suppliers and customers from within, while most of our businesses will, if they wish to do business in a far larger market without tariffs or penalties, move their capabilities to within the EU27. After all, within the EU, they will already be able to to trade worldwide within existing trading treaties, while if they stay within the UK, they will have wait until Westminster gets around to it with all the other 170 odd countries.
    Stay or go, hmm! If you were running a large company, financial, manufacturing or service, what would you do? 60 million increasingly ageing population with a dodgy currency or 350 plus million expanding with a strong currency. Let me think!
    Standard Life Aberdeen is already organising a name plate move to Dublin and could quite easily move it's corporate HQ there or to Germany.

    We'll probably invest more in our US and Asia operations, and may open an office in the Single Market. We'll create more jobs outside the UK than we would have done and pay less tax here. We're hardly big players, but I suspect many other export-focused businesses are planning similar strategies.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    Mortimer said:


    @Gardenwalker

    thread getting too long so reposted


    In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.

    Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.

    I moved becasue


    - I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
    - I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
    - I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
    - the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in

    I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so

    I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.

    The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them

    The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of

    I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,

    It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.

    But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.

    I was never asked if I wanted EU citizenship.

    Fair point... so why don't we ask people individually to choose whether they want to keep it or not? You can reject yours - I'll choose to keep mine... That way everyone's happy!
  • valleyboyvalleyboy Posts: 606
    Ave_it said:

    Watford!

    Unbeaten in last 3 premier league games!

    Just like CON unbeaten in last 3 big tournaments 2010-2015-2017!

    Cardiff City! Won first 5 games. Top of the Championship. See you next season, Aveit!
  • Ave_it said:

    4 years 9 months to #GE2022!

    4-0
    4-0
    4-0

    2010 2015 2017 2022 :lol:

    2017 was like Watford drawing with a pub league team, really embarrassing
  • Mortimer said:


    @Gardenwalker

    thread getting too long so reposted


    In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.

    Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.

    I moved becasue


    - I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
    - I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
    - I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
    - the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in

    I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so

    I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.

    The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them

    The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of

    I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,

    It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.

    But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.

    I was never asked if I wanted EU citizenship.

    Fair point... so why don't we ask people individually to choose whether they want to keep it or not?
    23rd June 2016?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    nichomar said:

    I wish I could have such unwavering beief in a viewpoit that some leavers have. Their desire to leave is beyond question and yet I have still not seen an argument that tells how in the short or medium term it will make "things better". They treat people who try to explain their concerns with disdain and contempt.

    Indeed. The arguments for Brexit have collapsed. The only thing left is "well, we voted for it".

    I know Remainers are guilty of a world of guff too, but I search in vain for a confident articulation of Brexit today.
    Brexit is the assertion by the majority* that the current social settlement isn't working for them, and the demand that their political servants become more accountable and thus responsive to their needs.

    As with pretty much all constitutional reform in this country, it is a perfect demonstration of the error correction inherent within our system that puts elites on notice that the spoils of the day (be they power, money, culture) need to be more evenly shared and not become ever more remote.

    *who could be bothered to vote, which in my mind is significant
    My irony meter just explodes off the scale every time a partisan Tory starts talking about the need for redistribution.
    What a partisan response to a non partisan point. A shame.
    Could you please elaborate on how a Tory government post Brexit will redistribute the nations wealth away from London and the South East and towards the poorest people of Britain, and particularly in communities like the NE England or S Wales?

    In what way is this different to Corbynism?
    A few ways just for starters:

    - revoking freedom of movement should stimulate wage growth. As noted by Lord Rose
    - revoking freedom of movement will encourage business to invest in people, and technology, that will lead to higher productivity

    But its not all about money - it is also about culture, and power. Both of which will be more focused within our borders post Brexit.

    Which industries will see the most significant wage growth most quickly, do you think?

    Service industries which rely on large numbers of applicants for low paying jobs.

    Food outlets, retailers, carers, cleaners.

  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited August 2017
    Great article in the FT about young people in the US who entered adulthood since the financial crisis;

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&q=https://www.ft.com/content/e5246526-8c2c-11e7-a352-e46f43c5825d&oq=https://www.ft.com/content/e5246526-8c2c-11e7-a352-e46f43c5825d&gs_l=psy-ab.3...283.283.0.428.1.1.0.0.0.0.76.76.1.1.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0.mwn3Rcwbg-M

    The dynamic is even worse in this country. What kind of solutions can the tories offer to generation f*cked?
  • stevef said:

    That's very bad news for Labour. The polling companies after the election are presumably no longer underestimating Labour -in the case of Yougov, it wasn't in the first place. To be level pegging when Kinnock and Miliband were ahead by double digits shows again that Corbyn is a liability and that history will show that by saving Corbyn's skin, the real beneficiaries of the 2017 election will be the Tories,

    Dream on... if the past two years have taught us anything it's that polls outside of an election campaign are meaningless. The longer this government goes on, the more it will suffer from voter disenchantment, which eventually gets every govenrment.
    Brexit will decide the next government and no one has a clue who will win that argument

    However, tonight's news that the Courts will deem a transition deal of more than two years as illegal even if the EU and UK agree, puts labour's new policy on life support
  • Mortimer said:


    @Gardenwalker

    thread getting too long so reposted


    In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.

    Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.

    I moved becasue


    - I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
    - I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
    - I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
    - the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in

    I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so

    I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.

    The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them

    The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of

    I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,

    It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.

    But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.

    I was never asked if I wanted EU citizenship.

    Fair point... so why don't we ask people individually to choose whether they want to keep it or not? You can reject yours - I'll choose to keep mine... That way everyone's happy!
    You can keep your EU citizenship as long as it is on the same basis as any other dual nationality - that you are subject to UK laws not EU ones when you are in this country. It is the way every other country - including EU members - work.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    Mortimer said:


    @Gardenwalker

    thread getting too long so reposted


    In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.

    Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.

    I moved becasue


    - I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
    - I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
    - I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
    - the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in

    I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so

    I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.

    The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them

    The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of

    I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,

    It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.

    But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.

    I was never asked if I wanted EU citizenship.

    Fair point... so why don't we ask people individually to choose whether they want to keep it or not? You can reject yours - I'll choose to keep mine... That way everyone's happy!
    What, like in a referendum?
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,838
    Charles said:

    Mortimer said:

    nichomar said:

    I wish I could have such unwavering beief in a viewpoit that some leavers have. Their desire to leave is beyond question and yet I have still not seen an argument that tells how in the short or medium term it will make "things better". They treat people who try to explain their concerns with disdain and contempt.

    Indeed. The arguments for Brexit have collapsed. The only thing left is "well, we voted for it".

    I know Remainers are guilty of a world of guff too, but I search in vain for a confident articulation of Brexit today.
    Brexit is the assertion by the majority* that the current social settlement isn't working for them, and the demand that their political servants become more accountable and thus responsive to their needs.

    As with pretty much all constitutional reform in this country, it is a perfect demonstration of the error correction inherent within our system that puts elites on notice that the spoils of the day (be they power, money, culture) need to be more evenly shared and not become ever more remote.

    *who could be bothered to vote, which in my mind is significant
    My irony meter just explodes off the scale every time a partisan Tory starts talking about the need for redistribution.
    Is that because you are intrinsically a better person?
    No, Charles, it's because my irony meter is wired directly to my hypocrisy sensor.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    Ave_it said:

    4 years 9 months to #GE2022!

    4-0
    4-0
    4-0

    2010 2015 2017 2022 :lol:

    2017 was like Watford drawing with a pub league team, really embarrassing
    Do you mean Watford 3 Liverpool 3? :lol:
  • Mortimer said:


    @Gardenwalker

    thread getting too long so reposted


    In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.

    Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.

    I moved becasue


    - I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
    - I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
    - I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
    - the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in

    I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so

    I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.

    The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them

    The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of

    I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,

    It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.

    But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.

    I was never asked if I wanted EU citizenship.

    I was never asked if I wanted UK citizenship. I am happy to have it, though. Just as I liked the freedoms and opportunities EU citizenship gave me and my family. I am just pleased for Mr Alanbrooke that he was in the fortunate position of being able to take away rights from us that he and his family retain.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849

    Ishmael_Z said:

    PAW said:

    http://www.businessweekly.co.uk/news/engineering/construction-milestone-rrs-sir-david-attenborough - I like the idea “By investing in UK shipyards, and encouraging shipyards to work together, the UK can dramatically ramp up the number of ships it builds, converts and repairs, for the commercial and naval sectors at home and abroad."

    What was preventing this previously?
    The thought that it might not work, at a guess. I assume that we don't have enough domestic demand to support a shipbuilding industry, so we will have to attract overseas orders, and that means taking business away from established Japanese and S Korean shipbuilders who may be better/cheaper/quicker than us.

    Even more speculatively, perhaps the brexit gun is being jumped here in that we will be able to put business our own way post brexit in a way we couldn't before. And of course if we take back control of our fisheries we are going to need an expanded fishing fleet.
    Ah yes, because we really used to make such a good job of running our businesses back in the early 70s before we joned the EEC!
    Businesses really boomed from 73 to 79! Everyone remembers fondly the Winter of Contentedness in 1978/79 when after more than half a decade in the EEC there was sunshine, roses and economic growth for everybody!
    Oh yes - good point - I suspect the EEC must have been to blame for the 3-day week and power cuts in 1974 too as we'd joined the previous year.

    Somehow we managed to avoid the EEC/EC/EU screwing up our economy again in the past 38 years though - we must have got lucky I guess!
  • Ave_it said:

    Ave_it said:

    4 years 9 months to #GE2022!

    4-0
    4-0
    4-0

    2010 2015 2017 2022 :lol:

    2017 was like Watford drawing with a pub league team, really embarrassing
    Do you mean Watford 3 Liverpool 3? :lol:
    Nah, Watford were lucky as your third goal was offside.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682

    HYUFD said:

    More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.

    One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.

    About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.

    Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.

    Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.

    Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.


    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades

    Ignoring the countless private schools which already do exactly the same.

    Indeed so do some Academies, including Portslade Aldridge Community Academy according to this article


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10273823/If-your-AS-level-is-not-up-to-scratch-youre-out.html
    Yep, TSE is right we should abolish Grammar Schools... but obviously we should abolish private schools first!
    Yes, let us abolish the two most successful types of school we have, could only have come from a socialist
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,357
    https://twitter.com/jamesdoleman/status/902639195704963077

    That Pig David Cameron Fucked in at number 10 with a bullet with £0.16.
  • Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    nichomar said:

    I wish I could have such unwavering beief in a viewpoit that some leavers have. Their desire to leave is beyond question and yet I have still not seen an argument that tells how in the short or medium term it will make "things better". They treat people who try to explain their concerns with disdain and contempt.

    Indeed. The arguments for Brexit have collapsed. The only thing left is "well, we voted for it".

    I know Remainers are guilty of a world of guff too, but I search in vain for a confident articulation of Brexit today.
    Brexit is the assertion by the majority* that the current social settlement isn't working for them, and the demand that their political servants become more accountable and thus responsive to their needs.

    As with pretty much all constitutional reform in this country, it is a perfect demonstration of the error correction inherent within our system that puts elites on notice that the spoils of the day (be they power, money, culture) need to be more evenly shared and not become ever more remote.

    *who could be bothered to vote, which in my mind is significant
    My irony meter just explodes off the scale every time a partisan Tory starts talking about the need for redistribution.
    What a partisan response to a non partisan point. A shame.
    Could you please elaborate on how a Tory government post Brexit will redistribute the nations wealth away from London and the South East and towards the poorest people of Britain, and particularly in communities like the NE England or S Wales?

    In what way is this different to Corbynism?
    A few ways just for starters:

    - revoking freedom of movement should stimulate wage growth. As noted by Lord Rose
    - revoking freedom of movement will encourage business to invest in people, and technology, that will lead to higher productivity

    But its not all about money - it is also about culture, and power. Both of which will be more focused within our borders post Brexit.

    Which industries will see the most significant wage growth most quickly, do you think?

    Service industries which rely on large numbers of applicants for low paying jobs.

    Food outlets, retailers, carers, cleaners.

    So higher prices for all. Or fewer outlets. What's the timescale we're looking at?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,787
    Utterly off topic but very worth the read

    https://twitter.com/ladyhawkins/status/902513148896391168
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:


    @Gardenwalker

    thread getting too long so reposted


    In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.

    Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.

    I moved becasue


    - I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
    - I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
    - I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
    - the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in

    I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so

    I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.

    The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them

    The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of

    I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,

    It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.

    But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.

    I was never asked if I wanted EU citizenship.

    Fair point... so why don't we ask people individually to choose whether they want to keep it or not? You can reject yours - I'll choose to keep mine... That way everyone's happy!
    What, like in a referendum?
    Er no, exactly not like a referendum... we don't have a referendum on whether we each want to buy a house or get married... You seem to have overlooked the phrase 'individually to choose' in my post.

    @Freetochoose should love my suggestion :lol:
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    Mortimer said:


    @Gardenwalker

    thread getting too long so reposted


    In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.

    Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.

    I moved becasue


    - I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
    - I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
    - I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
    - the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in

    I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so

    I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.

    The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them

    The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of

    I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,

    It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.

    But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.

    I was never asked if I wanted EU citizenship.

    I was never asked if I wanted UK citizenship. I am happy to have it, though. Just as I liked the freedoms and opportunities EU citizenship gave me and my family. I am just pleased for Mr Alanbrooke that he was in the fortunate position of being able to take away rights from us that he and his family retain.
    Not really a fair comparison is it; you get the citizenship, broadly, of the nation into which you're born.

    Not the supranational body in which your country happens to currently be in.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682

    More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.

    One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.

    About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.

    Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.

    Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.

    Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.


    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades

    Once again privileged public schoolboy looks for any opportunity to attack the one way of improving life chances for the poorer parts of society. You really are a disgrace.
    All the evidence points to the contrary.

    One of Mrs Thatcher's finest achievements was to abolish so many grammar schools as Education Secretary then as PM not to create any new grammars.

    She knew what the evidence was pointing to.
    She only signed off LA abolitions reluctantly under Heath's orders, latterly she even attended 'Friends of Grammar Schools' receptions with Graham Brady.

    As Thatcher said herself at the 1977 Tory conference "People from my sort of background needed grammar schools to compete with children from privileged homes like Shirley Williams and Anthony Wedgwood Benn."
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    PAW said:

    http://www.businessweekly.co.uk/news/engineering/construction-milestone-rrs-sir-david-attenborough - I like the idea “By investing in UK shipyards, and encouraging shipyards to work together, the UK can dramatically ramp up the number of ships it builds, converts and repairs, for the commercial and naval sectors at home and abroad."

    What was preventing this previously?
    The thought that it might not work, at a guess. I assume that we don't have enough domestic demand to support a shipbuilding industry, so we will have to attract overseas orders, and that means taking business away from established Japanese and S Korean shipbuilders who may be better/cheaper/quicker than us.

    Even more speculatively, perhaps the brexit gun is being jumped here in that we will be able to put business our own way post brexit in a way we couldn't before. And of course if we take back control of our fisheries we are going to need an expanded fishing fleet.
    Ah yes, because we really used to make such a good job of running our businesses back in the early 70s before we joned the EEC!
    Businesses really boomed from 73 to 79! Everyone remembers fondly the Winter of Contentedness in 1978/79 when after more than half a decade in the EEC there was sunshine, roses and economic growth for everybody!
    Oh yes - good point - I suspect the EEC must have been to blame for the 3-day week and power cuts in 1974 too as we'd joined the previous year.

    Somehow we managed to avoid the EEC/EC/EU screwing up our economy again in the past 38 years though - we must have got lucky I guess!
    Mostly through avoiding moronic socialist policies
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,846
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:


    @Gardenwalker

    thread getting too long so reposted


    In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.

    Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.

    I moved becasue


    - I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
    - I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
    - I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
    - the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in

    I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so

    I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.

    The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them

    The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of

    I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,

    It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.

    But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.

    I was never asked if I wanted EU citizenship.

    I was never asked if I wanted UK citizenship. I am happy to have it, though. Just as I liked the freedoms and opportunities EU citizenship gave me and my family. I am just pleased for Mr Alanbrooke that he was in the fortunate position of being able to take away rights from us that he and his family retain.
    Not really a fair comparison is it; you get the citizenship, broadly, of the nation into which you're born.

    Not the supranational body in which your country happens to currently be in.
    When am I going to get my English citizenship? Nobody asked me if I wanted this supranational union.
  • HYUFD said:

    Once again privileged public schoolboy looks for any opportunity to attack the one way of improving life chances for the poorer parts of society. You really are a disgrace.
    All the evidence points to the contrary.

    One of Mrs Thatcher's finest achievements was to abolish so many grammar schools as Education Secretary then as PM not to create any new grammars.

    She knew what the evidence was pointing to.
    She only signed off LA abolitions reluctantly under Heath's orders, latterly she even attended 'Friends of Grammar Schools' receptions with Graham Brady.

    As Thatcher said herself at the 1977 Tory conference "People from my sort of background needed grammar schools to compete with children from privileged homes like Shirley Williams and Anthony Wedgwood Benn."
    But what did she do when she was PM for 11 and a half years, 7 and a half of which was when she had a majority of 100+?

    The square root of bugger all.
  • Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:


    @Gardenwalker

    thread getting too long so reposted


    In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.

    Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.

    I moved becasue


    - I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
    - I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
    - I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
    - the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in

    I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so

    I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.

    The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them

    The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of

    I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,

    It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.

    But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.

    I was never asked if I wanted EU citizenship.

    I was never asked if I wanted UK citizenship. I am happy to have it, though. Just as I liked the freedoms and opportunities EU citizenship gave me and my family. I am just pleased for Mr Alanbrooke that he was in the fortunate position of being able to take away rights from us that he and his family retain.
    Not really a fair comparison is it; you get the citizenship, broadly, of the nation into which you're born.

    Not the supranational body in which your country happens to currently be in.

    But you do get EU citizenship like that. And Alanbrooke gets to keep his having voted to remove it from me and my family. Lucky him!

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    More evidence that we need to abolish grammar schools, they really do screw children.

    One of the country’s leading grammar schools has been accused of acting unlawfully by throwing out sixth-form students who failed to get top grades in AS and equivalent internal exams ahead of their final A-level year.

    About 16 pupils at St Olave’s grammar school in Orpington, in the London borough of Bromley, were told their places for year 13 – the last year of school – had been withdrawn after they failed to get the required three Bs. One father accused the school of dumping his son like “old garbage”.

    Other students were told they would be allowed to continue on a discretionary basis and were asked to sign a contract warning that if they did not get a minimum B grade in their mocks the school reserved the right not to enter them for their A-level exams.

    Lawyers acting for two of the affected families have issued judicial review proceedings against the school’s governing body, also naming Bromley, the local authority responsible for maintaining the school, as an interested party. A hearing has been set for 20 September.

    Parents and teachers have criticised the school for behaving like “an exam factory”, focusing purely on results and school league table success at the expense of students’ education and welfare.


    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/29/grammar-school-unlawfully-threw-out-students-who-failed-to-get-top-grades

    Ignoring the countless private schools which already do exactly the same.

    Indeed so do some Academies, including Portslade Aldridge Community Academy according to this article


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10273823/If-your-AS-level-is-not-up-to-scratch-youre-out.html
    Yep, TSE is right we should abolish Grammar Schools... but obviously we should abolish private schools first!
    Yes, let us abolish the two most successful types of school we have, could only have come from a socialist
    Successful in what sense? In perpetuating privilege across the generations.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:


    @Gardenwalker

    thread getting too long so reposted


    In simple terms I started as a 60-40 outer and finished at 90 - 10, I still have some regrets but compromises have to be made.

    Bus painting, name calling and all the other guff didnt influence me in the slightest.

    I moved becasue


    - I work in british manufacturing and believe we will do better outside the EU
    - I am happy that the UK can make its own way in the world and that we should be focussing on GDP per head rather than raw GDP
    - I prefer to have our politicans held accountable to their electorate
    - the british establishment had no coherent argument on the benefits of staying in

    I started as eurosceptic because the EU will only work for the UK if we adopt european norms on employment law and this country has no appetite to do so

    I believe the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and ignores the wishes of its voters.

    The EU bureaucracy wishes to form a unitary state, one I have very little affiliation with. But If the others want to form such a state why should we block them

    The treatment of the PIGS in 2008 was by a state I didnt want to be a part of

    I have no faith in the british political class who have consistently lied about the EU to the electorate. European politicians have been totally upfront on where they are going our guys arent and need a drubbing to get their act together, They have had 2 of them in the last 15 months,

    It will have some pain but ultimately I believe we will come back with a better stronger country when the clock has been reset.

    But as an Irish passport holder you and your family get to keep all the benefits of EU citizenship that you voted to take away from mine. Lucky you.

    I was never asked if I wanted EU citizenship.

    Fair point... so why don't we ask people individually to choose whether they want to keep it or not? You can reject yours - I'll choose to keep mine... That way everyone's happy!
    What, like in a referendum?
    Er no, exactly not like a referendum... we don't have a referendum on whether we each want to buy a house or get married... You seem to have overlooked the phrase 'individually to choose' in my post.

    @Freetochoose should love my suggestion :lol:
    Thats not quite how we resolve political disagreements, where some benefit and others lose from the status quo, is it?

    Remainers really are not used to losing, are they....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682

    stevef said:

    That's very bad news for Labour. The polling companies after the election are presumably no longer underestimating Labour -in the case of Yougov, it wasn't in the first place. To be level pegging when Kinnock and Miliband were ahead by double digits shows again that Corbyn is a liability and that history will show that by saving Corbyn's skin, the real beneficiaries of the 2017 election will be the Tories,

    Dream on... if the past two years have taught us anything it's that polls outside of an election campaign are meaningless. The longer this government goes on, the more it will suffer from voter disenchantment, which eventually gets every govenrment.
    The next general election in 2019/20 will be a straight choice, full Brexit and an end to free movement under the Tories, or years of big payments to the EU, continued single market membership and unlimited free movement under Labour
This discussion has been closed.