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On the other hand, the EU27 have the reverse problem. It's unclear to me whether they are bluffing, or whether they really do think we'd be so irrational as to gift them tens of billions for nothing in return, but no deal is a very bad deal for them as well.foxinsoxuk said:No politician can survive paying a Brexit bill. That is why none will name what they think is reasonable, and one of many reasons WTO Brexit is nailed on. A sensible government may want to start planning, even just as a contingency.
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The rate of migration continued to increase when we were in the EU, only once we left has the rate started to fallFF43 said:
True, but then you wouldn't be exercised by exit costs as most people appear to be, according to that poll. Also the relative reduction in immigration is down to the authorities being unpleasant to would be immigrants, which they could and are doing while the UK remains in the EU. I don't support that unpleasantness. It's neither useful nor the right thing to do, but it does get immigration down.HYUFD said:
Not if you voted Leave to reduce immigration, the rate of increase in migration has already fallen in the latest post Brexit figuresFF43 said:
Which is presumably why the government is not negotiating with the EU on the exit amount. But I don't think it necessarily means the public are prepared for no deal. The problem is that the public is not prepared for any outcome that is worse than what we have already but all Brexit outcomes WILL be worse than what we have already. It's a case of picking your least bad option.williamglenn said:The ICM polling on the Brexit bill is interesting and will be giving the government a big headache.
£10bn: Acceptable: 41% - Not acceptable: 40%
£20bn: Acceptable: 18% - Not acceptable: 65%
£30bn: Acceptable: 11% - Not acceptable: 72%
£40bn: Acceptable: 9% - Not acceptable: 75%0 -
Nonetheless it shows neither think we made a massive error leaving the EU, at most both are indifferentGardenwalker said:
China may not "like" the EU, but it is forced to reckon with it.HYUFD said:
China has no love for the EU after it refused to recognise it as a market economyGardenwalker said:
But you don't really believe that. It's the sort of guff countries say after G20s. they would have said it about the Austrian-Hungarians if the G20 had been a thing in say, 1913.HYUFD said:
Says who? The USA and indeed China at the G20 said post Brexit UK had a great future and they are the 2 most powerful nations on the planetGardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
The government still looks to be aiming for a hard Brexit but with seemingly no accompanying policy initiatives.
We have crippled our government and are somewhere between a laughing stock and a global irrelevance.
Why are we doing this again?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/816526/Angela-Merkel-EU-European-Union-China-WTO-market-economy-status/amp
Trump backed Brexit even before the referendum
Trump is increasingly an irrelevance and a joke.0 -
bizarreGardenwalker said:
China may not "like" the EU, but it is forced to reckon with it.HYUFD said:
China has no love for the EU after it refused to recognise it as a market economyGardenwalker said:
But you don't really believe that. It's the sort of guff countries say after G20s. they would have said it about the Austrian-Hungarians if the G20 had been a thing in say, 1913.HYUFD said:
Says who? The USA and indeed China at the G20 said post Brexit UK had a great future and they are the 2 most powerful nations on the planetGardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
The government still looks to be aiming for a hard Brexit but with seemingly no accompanying policy initiatives.
We have crippled our government and are somewhere between a laughing stock and a global irrelevance.
Why are we doing this again?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/816526/Angela-Merkel-EU-European-Union-China-WTO-market-economy-status/amp
Trump backed Brexit even before the referendum
Trump is increasingly an irrelevance and a joke.
if he's such an irrelevance why are the media reporting everything he does ?0 -
This seems to fit *some* of the facts - for example, why a British cabinet would be leading the country toward a status both economically and geopolitically inferior than before?williamglenn said:
There's an alternative way of interpreting the government's reluctance to discuss the exit bill in concrete terms or to provide any bold thinking on Northern Ireland.foxinsoxuk said:
No politician can survive paying a Brexit bill. That is why none will name what they think is reasonable, and one of many reasons WTO Brexit is nailed on. A sensible government may want to start planning, even just as a contingency.Big_G_NorthWales said:
This is the point I have been making for some time. The Brexit bill will be pivotal to public opinion and the government standing firm against 20 billion plus will see the narrative turn very much against the EU.HYUFD said:
Makes it even more likely the transition period lasts no longer than a year then it is full Brexit under Boriswilliamglenn said:The ICM polling on the Brexit bill is interesting and will be giving the government a big headache.
£10bn: Acceptable: 41% - Not acceptable: 40%
£20bn: Acceptable: 18% - Not acceptable: 65%
£30bn: Acceptable: 11% - Not acceptable: 72%
£40bn: Acceptable: 9% - Not acceptable: 75%
I would also ask the remainers which politician or party is going to concede to the EU on a large Brexit bill
That is that they are already planning to abandon Brexit and don't want to weaken the UK's position unnecessarily before getting to that point. If their aim is the status quo ante, they need stalemate and there is no upside to making concessions.
But it doesn't explain the pathetic, alienating rhetoric to the tabloids, does it? Or - does it?0 -
YupRichard_Nabavi said:
On the other hand, the EU27 have the reverse problem. It's unclear to me whether they are bluffing, or whether they really do think we'd be so irrational as to gift them tens of billions for nothing in return, but no deal is a very bad deal for them as well.foxinsoxuk said:No politician can survive paying a Brexit bill. That is why none will name what they think is reasonable, and one of many reasons WTO Brexit is nailed on. A sensible government may want to start planning, even just as a contingency.
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He's a peril to the continued existence of global civilisation, but any influence he might have on the future prosperity of the UK is likely minimal.Alanbrooke said:
bizarreGardenwalker said:
China may not "like" the EU, but it is forced to reckon with it.HYUFD said:
China has no love for the EU after it refused to recognise it as a market economyGardenwalker said:
But you don't really believe that. It's the sort of guff countries say after G20s. they would have said it about the Austrian-Hungarians if the G20 had been a thing in say, 1913.HYUFD said:
Says who? The USA and indeed China at the G20 said post Brexit UK had a great future and they are the 2 most powerful nations on the planetGardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
The government still looks to be aiming for a hard Brexit but with seemingly no accompanying policy initiatives.
We have crippled our government and are somewhere between a laughing stock and a global irrelevance.
Why are we doing this again?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/816526/Angela-Merkel-EU-European-Union-China-WTO-market-economy-status/amp
Trump backed Brexit even before the referendum
Trump is increasingly an irrelevance and a joke.
if he's such an irrelevance why are the media reporting everything he does ?
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I am not particularly advocating WTO Brexit, just see it as inevitable. The positions and politicians on both sides are entrenched and it is the default outcome.Richard_Nabavi said:
On the other hand, the EU27 have the reverse problem. It's unclear to me whether they are bluffing, or whether they really do think we'd be so irrational as to gift them tens of billions for nothing in return, but no deal is a very bad deal for them as well.foxinsoxuk said:No politician can survive paying a Brexit bill. That is why none will name what they think is reasonable, and one of many reasons WTO Brexit is nailed on. A sensible government may want to start planning, even just as a contingency.
We do also need to allow for ratification time, so we are probably just 12 months off the end of negotiations. It makes me very glad to be in the ultimate secure job...0 -
Assuming the EU and member countries don't care what the UK public think about the money demands, the problem is that walking away without a deal doesn't resolve anything. Massively the opposite actually. There will be chaos and our government would have justify that chaos to the public. They are far better taking the hit on the money and moving on.Big_G_NorthWales said:
This is the point I have been making for some time. The Brexit bill will be pivotal to public opinion and the government standing firm against 20 billion plus will see the narrative turn very much against the EU.HYUFD said:
Makes it even more likely the transition period lasts no longer than a year then it is full Brexit under Boriswilliamglenn said:The ICM polling on the Brexit bill is interesting and will be giving the government a big headache.
£10bn: Acceptable: 41% - Not acceptable: 40%
£20bn: Acceptable: 18% - Not acceptable: 65%
£30bn: Acceptable: 11% - Not acceptable: 72%
£40bn: Acceptable: 9% - Not acceptable: 75%
I would also ask the remainers which politician or party is going to concede to the EU on a large Brexit bill0 -
We leave in March 2019. A deal will need to be finalised way before that so it can be approved by EU27 member states and the UK Parliament, and its provisions put in place.HYUFD said:
The end point for talks is March 2019 and of course the EU also has an interested in keeping at least some of the billions it is set to lose once the UK leaves the EUSouthamObserver said:
If we don't agree a payment schedule we'll have walked off the cliff way before 2020 and there'll be no transition.HYUFD said:
Indeed, it will be a general election in 2020 and an end to free movement and big payments to the EU with the Tories or their continuing for years under LabourBig_G_NorthWales said:
This is the point I have been making for some time. The Brexit bill will be pivotal to public opinion and the government standing firm against 20 billion plus will see the narrative turn very much against the EU.HYUFD said:
Makes it even more likely the transition period lasts no longer than a year then it is full Brexit under Boriswilliamglenn said:The ICM polling on the Brexit bill is interesting and will be giving the government a big headache.
£10bn: Acceptable: 41% - Not acceptable: 40%
£20bn: Acceptable: 18% - Not acceptable: 65%
£30bn: Acceptable: 11% - Not acceptable: 72%
£40bn: Acceptable: 9% - Not acceptable: 75%
I would also ask the remainers which politician or party is going to concede to the EU on a large Brexit bill
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You voted Remain. Would you still do so, with the facts as they are known today?Richard_Nabavi said:
As I was before the referendum, so I'm not sure what you mean by 'now'.Gardenwalker said:Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
As for your question as to why we are doing this - because that's what the buggers voted for. Simple as that.0 -
Yes.Gardenwalker said:You voted Remain. Would you still do so, with the facts as they are known today?
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Unless you are an undertaker, midwife or lady of the night I don't think anyone can say their job is absolutely securefoxinsoxuk said:
I am not particularly advocating WTO Brexit, just see it as inevitable. The positions and politicians on both sides are entrenched and it is the default outcome.Richard_Nabavi said:
On the other hand, the EU27 have the reverse problem. It's unclear to me whether they are bluffing, or whether they really do think we'd be so irrational as to gift them tens of billions for nothing in return, but no deal is a very bad deal for them as well.foxinsoxuk said:No politician can survive paying a Brexit bill. That is why none will name what they think is reasonable, and one of many reasons WTO Brexit is nailed on. A sensible government may want to start planning, even just as a contingency.
We do also need to allow for ratification time, so we are probably just 12 months off the end of negotiations. It makes me very glad to be in the ultimate secure job...0 -
I don't think that's a credible statement.HYUFD said:
Nonetheless it shows neither think we made a massive error leaving the EU, at most both are indifferentGardenwalker said:
China may not "like" the EU, but it is forced to reckon with it.HYUFD said:
China has no love for the EU after it refused to recognise it as a market economyGardenwalker said:
But you don't really believe that. It's the sort of guff countries say after G20s. they would have said it about the Austrian-Hungarians if the G20 had been a thing in say, 1913.HYUFD said:
Says who? The USA and indeed China at the G20 said post Brexit UK had a great future and they are the 2 most powerful nations on the planetGardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
The government still looks to be aiming for a hard Brexit but with seemingly no accompanying policy initiatives.
We have crippled our government and are somewhere between a laughing stock and a global irrelevance.
Why are we doing this again?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/816526/Angela-Merkel-EU-European-Union-China-WTO-market-economy-status/amp
Trump backed Brexit even before the referendum
Trump is increasingly an irrelevance and a joke.
Both China and the US supported the UK in Brexit - and for similar reasons - as a potentially powerful pro-trade ally within the EU.
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One thing I can be certain of is that Leave or Remain, or even in a Zombie apocalypse, there will be sick people.HYUFD said:
Unless you are an undertaker, midwife or lady of the night I don't think anyone can say their job is absolutely securefoxinsoxuk said:
I am not particularly advocating WTO Brexit, just see it as inevitable. The positions and politicians on both sides are entrenched and it is the default outcome.Richard_Nabavi said:
On the other hand, the EU27 have the reverse problem. It's unclear to me whether they are bluffing, or whether they really do think we'd be so irrational as to gift them tens of billions for nothing in return, but no deal is a very bad deal for them as well.foxinsoxuk said:No politician can survive paying a Brexit bill. That is why none will name what they think is reasonable, and one of many reasons WTO Brexit is nailed on. A sensible government may want to start planning, even just as a contingency.
We do also need to allow for ratification time, so we are probably just 12 months off the end of negotiations. It makes me very glad to be in the ultimate secure job...
It is also a usefully in demand skill worldwide too.0 -
Doesn't light get offered?Pulpstar said:Lay West Indies 2.22 £10.00 £12.20 (Just for interest)
Bad light stops play I reckon...
The light laws are weird and umpires interpret them over-conservatively.
Edit: Root can keep the quicks on to force the decision too..
Hick and Thorpe won in the dark in pakistan a decade or so back....0 -
The problem with that analysis is the EU27 are not offering a deal in return for the money. If they were, we could have a sensible negotiation.FF43 said:Assuming the EU and member countries don't care what the UK public think about the money demands, the problem is that walking away without a deal doesn't resolve anything. Massively the opposite actually. There will be chaos and our government would have justify that chaos to the public. They are far better taking the hit on the money and moving on.
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Don't tell Activate, but their website still has a link (in the top right corner) to the old Twitter account (the one that got hacked) instead of the new one (which replaced it).0
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that says he's not an irrelevanceNigelb said:
He's a peril to the continued existence of global civilisation, but any influence he might have on the future prosperity of the UK is likely minimal.Alanbrooke said:
bizarreGardenwalker said:
China may not "like" the EU, but it is forced to reckon with it.HYUFD said:
China has no love for the EU after it refused to recognise it as a market economyGardenwalker said:
But you don't really believe that. It's the sort of guff countries say after G20s. they would have said it about the Austrian-Hungarians if the G20 had been a thing in say, 1913.HYUFD said:
Says who? The USA and indeed China at the G20 said post Brexit UK had a great future and they are the 2 most powerful nations on the planetGardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
The government still looks to be aiming for a hard Brexit but with seemingly no accompanying policy initiatives.
We have crippled our government and are somewhere between a laughing stock and a global irrelevance.
Why are we doing this again?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/816526/Angela-Merkel-EU-European-Union-China-WTO-market-economy-status/amp
Trump backed Brexit even before the referendum
Trump is increasingly an irrelevance and a joke.
if he's such an irrelevance why are the media reporting everything he does ?
as for global civilisation your comment is just plain daft
has the US stopped elections every 4 years ?0 -
It can be, but as the umpires have not taken a prior reading in the match they don't have to.Mortimer said:
Doesn't light get offered?Pulpstar said:Lay West Indies 2.22 £10.00 £12.20 (Just for interest)
Bad light stops play I reckon...
The light laws are weird and umpires interpret them over-conservatively.
Edit: Root can keep the quicks on to force the decision too..
Hick and Thorpe won in the dark in pakistan a decade or so back....0 -
Negotiations on any trade agreement will likely run into 2020 but whether in 2019 or 2020 the general election choice will be the same - ending free movement and large payments to the EU under the Tories or continuing them for years under LabourSouthamObserver said:
We leave in March 2019. A deal will need to be finalised way before that so it can be approved by EU27 member states and the UK Parliament, and its provisions put in place.HYUFD said:
The end point for talks is March 2019 and of course the EU also has an interested in keeping at least some of the billions it is set to lose once the UK leaves the EUSouthamObserver said:
If we don't agree a payment schedule we'll have walked off the cliff way before 2020 and there'll be no transition.HYUFD said:
Indeed, it will be a general election in 2020 and an end to free movement and big payments to the EU with the Tories or their continuing for years under LabourBig_G_NorthWales said:
This is the point I have been making for some time. The Brexit bill will be pivotal to public opinion and the government standing firm against 20 billion plus will see the narrative turn very much against the EU.HYUFD said:
Makes it even more likely the transition period lasts no longer than a year then it is full Brexit under Boriswilliamglenn said:The ICM polling on the Brexit bill is interesting and will be giving the government a big headache.
£10bn: Acceptable: 41% - Not acceptable: 40%
£20bn: Acceptable: 18% - Not acceptable: 65%
£30bn: Acceptable: 11% - Not acceptable: 72%
£40bn: Acceptable: 9% - Not acceptable: 75%
I would also ask the remainers which politician or party is going to concede to the EU on a large Brexit bill0 -
No. England were robbed of a win in similar conditions fairly recently.Mortimer said:
Doesn't light get offered?Pulpstar said:Lay West Indies 2.22 £10.00 £12.20 (Just for interest)
Bad light stops play I reckon...
The light laws are weird and umpires interpret them over-conservatively.
Edit: Root can keep the quicks on to force the decision too..
Hick and Thorpe won in the dark in pakistan a decade or so back....
One feels the umpires might fear a lynching if they were to stop the game now.
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The same reason they reported ad nauseum on Love Island, with the added titillation of moral horror.Alanbrooke said:
bizarreGardenwalker said:
China may not "like" the EU, but it is forced to reckon with it.HYUFD said:
China has no love for the EU after it refused to recognise it as a market economyGardenwalker said:
But you don't really believe that. It's the sort of guff countries say after G20s. they would have said it about the Austrian-Hungarians if the G20 had been a thing in say, 1913.HYUFD said:
Says who? The USA and indeed China at the G20 said post Brexit UK had a great future and they are the 2 most powerful nations on the planetGardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
The government still looks to be aiming for a hard Brexit but with seemingly no accompanying policy initiatives.
We have crippled our government and are somewhere between a laughing stock and a global irrelevance.
Why are we doing this again?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/816526/Angela-Merkel-EU-European-Union-China-WTO-market-economy-status/amp
Trump backed Brexit even before the referendum
Trump is increasingly an irrelevance and a joke.
if he's such an irrelevance why are the media reporting everything he does ?0 -
Because a proportion of our population likes waving flags and mooning in a superior fashion at the furriners across the Channel.Gardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
The government still looks to be aiming for a hard Brexit but with seemingly no accompanying policy initiatives.
We have crippled our government and are somewhere between a laughing stock and a global irrelevance.
Why are we doing this again?
After Brexit, I was initially mainly disappointed but since I've become increasingly pissed off with those who pushed it, how they went about pushing it, their failure to have a real plan and most significantly their failure to acknowledge how it would impact negatively on many people's lives.
The country is totally divided. The mistake of all was to see Brexit as a great victory for one side. Now we've all got to pay the price, which will be a big one.
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Only if we get to a point where the EU27 agree to a transition deal. That won't happen without the UK agreeing a payment deal.HYUFD said:
Negotiations on any trade agreement will likely run into 2020 but whether in 2019 or 2020 the general election choice will be the same - ending free movement and large payments to the EU under the Tories or continuing them for years under LabourSouthamObserver said:
We leave in March 2019. A deal will need to be finalised way before that so it can be approved by EU27 member states and the UK Parliament, and its provisions put in place.HYUFD said:
The end point for talks is March 2019 and of course the EU also has an interested in keeping at least some of the billions it is set to lose once the UK leaves the EUSouthamObserver said:
If we don't agree a payment schedule we'll have walked off the cliff way before 2020 and there'll be no transition.HYUFD said:
Indeed, it will be a general election in 2020 and an end to free movement and big payments to the EU with the Tories or their continuing for years under LabourBig_G_NorthWales said:
This is the point I have been making for some time. The Brexit bill will be pivotal to public opinion and the government standing firm against 20 billion plus will see the narrative turn very much against the EU.HYUFD said:
Makes it even more likely the transition period lasts no longer than a year then it is full Brexit under Boriswilliamglenn said:The ICM polling on the Brexit bill is interesting and will be giving the government a big headache.
£10bn: Acceptable: 41% - Not acceptable: 40%
£20bn: Acceptable: 18% - Not acceptable: 65%
£30bn: Acceptable: 11% - Not acceptable: 72%
£40bn: Acceptable: 9% - Not acceptable: 75%
I would also ask the remainers which politician or party is going to concede to the EU on a large Brexit bill
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Good. It does appear that apart from Big G nobody on this board has changed their minds.Richard_Nabavi said:
Yes.Gardenwalker said:You voted Remain. Would you still do so, with the facts as they are known today?
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This quote is a good indication of why so many voted Leave. Because smug Remainers stopped listening and assumed they had natural superiority.Monksfield said:
Because a proportion of our population likes waving flags and mooning in a superior fashion at the furriners across the Channel.Gardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
The government still looks to be aiming for a hard Brexit but with seemingly no accompanying policy initiatives.
We have crippled our government and are somewhere between a laughing stock and a global irrelevance.
Why are we doing this again?
0 -
The US President is the first US President in post-war history to have advocated the UK leave the EU when the UK PM was arguing it should stay, China could not really care less either wayGardenwalker said:
I don't think that's a credible statement.HYUFD said:
Nonetheless it shows neither think we made a massive error leaving the EU, at most both are indifferentGardenwalker said:
China may not "like" the EU, but it is forced to reckon with it.HYUFD said:
China has no love for the EU after it refused to recognise it as a market economyGardenwalker said:
But you don't really believe that. It's the sort of guff countries say after G20s. they would have said it about the Austrian-Hungarians if the G20 had been a thing in say, 1913.HYUFD said:
Says who? The USA and indeed China at the G20 said post Brexit UK had a great future and they are the 2 most powerful nations on the planetGardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
The government still looks to be aiming for a hard Brexit but with seemingly no accompanying policy initiatives.
We have crippled our government and are somewhere between a laughing stock and a global irrelevance.
Why are we doing this again?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/816526/Angela-Merkel-EU-European-Union-China-WTO-market-economy-status/amp
Trump backed Brexit even before the referendum
Trump is increasingly an irrelevance and a joke.
Both China and the US supported the UK in Brexit - and for similar reasons - as a potentially powerful pro-trade ally within the EU.0 -
True but even sone minor surgery etc may fall to automationfoxinsoxuk said:
One thing I can be certain of is that Leave or Remain, or even in a Zombie apocalypse, there will be sick people.HYUFD said:
Unless you are an undertaker, midwife or lady of the night I don't think anyone can say their job is absolutely securefoxinsoxuk said:
I am not particularly advocating WTO Brexit, just see it as inevitable. The positions and politicians on both sides are entrenched and it is the default outcome.Richard_Nabavi said:
On the other hand, the EU27 have the reverse problem. It's unclear to me whether they are bluffing, or whether they really do think we'd be so irrational as to gift them tens of billions for nothing in return, but no deal is a very bad deal for them as well.foxinsoxuk said:No politician can survive paying a Brexit bill. That is why none will name what they think is reasonable, and one of many reasons WTO Brexit is nailed on. A sensible government may want to start planning, even just as a contingency.
We do also need to allow for ratification time, so we are probably just 12 months off the end of negotiations. It makes me very glad to be in the ultimate secure job...
It is also a usefully in demand skill worldwide too.0 -
Then we have a stupid impasse again, like the Irish issue. Who came up with this crap timetable again?SouthamObserver said:
Only if we get to a point where the EU27 agree to a transition deal. That won't happen without the UK agreeing a payment deal.HYUFD said:
Negotiations on any trade agreement will likely run into 2020 but whether in 2019 or 2020 the general election choice will be the same - ending free movement and large payments to the EU under the Tories or continuing them for years under LabourSouthamObserver said:
We leave in March 2019. A deal will need to be finalised way before that so it can be approved by EU27 member states and the UK Parliament, and its provisions put in place.HYUFD said:
The end point for talks is March 2019 and of course the EU also has an interested in keeping at least some of the billions it is set to lose once the UK leaves the EUSouthamObserver said:
If we don't agree a payment schedule we'll have walked off the cliff way before 2020 and there'll be no transition.HYUFD said:
Indeed, it will be a general election in 2020 and an end to free movement and big payments to the EU with the Tories or their continuing for years under LabourBig_G_NorthWales said:
This is the point I have been making for some time. The Brexit bill will be pivotal to public opinion and the government standing firm against 20 billion plus will see the narrative turn very much against the EU.HYUFD said:
Makes it even more likely the transition period lasts no longer than a year then it is full Brexit under Boriswilliamglenn said:The ICM polling on the Brexit bill is interesting and will be giving the government a big headache.
£10bn: Acceptable: 41% - Not acceptable: 40%
£20bn: Acceptable: 18% - Not acceptable: 65%
£30bn: Acceptable: 11% - Not acceptable: 72%
£40bn: Acceptable: 9% - Not acceptable: 75%
I would also ask the remainers which politician or party is going to concede to the EU on a large Brexit bill0 -
My bet obviously looks like a loser now - but was based off the fact umpires often don't apply common sense in these situations.Nigelb said:
No. England were robbed of a win in similar conditions fairly recently.Mortimer said:
Doesn't light get offered?Pulpstar said:Lay West Indies 2.22 £10.00 £12.20 (Just for interest)
Bad light stops play I reckon...
The light laws are weird and umpires interpret them over-conservatively.
Edit: Root can keep the quicks on to force the decision too..
Hick and Thorpe won in the dark in pakistan a decade or so back....
One feels the umpires might fear a lynching if they were to stop the game now.
Thankfully for the good of the game it seems they may well be.0 -
Indeed, the Leave vote was the first time the majority of the working class outvoted the majority of the Middle class since Harold Wilson beat Ted Heath in October 1974Mortimer said:
This quote is a good indication of why so many voted Leave. Because smug Remainers stopped listening and assumed they had natural superiority.Monksfield said:
Because a proportion of our population likes waving flags and mooning in a superior fashion at the furriners across the Channel.Gardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
The government still looks to be aiming for a hard Brexit but with seemingly no accompanying policy initiatives.
We have crippled our government and are somewhere between a laughing stock and a global irrelevance.
Why are we doing this again?0 -
The UK triggered A50 without fully understanding how the process would work and without a negotiating strategy.Mortimer said:
Then we have a stupid impasse again, like the Irish issue. Who came up with this crap timetable again?SouthamObserver said:
Only if we get to a point where the EU27 agree to a transition deal. That won't happen without the UK agreeing a payment deal.HYUFD said:
Negotiations on any trade agreement will likely run into 2020 but whether in 2019 or 2020 the general election choice will be the same - ending free movement and large payments to the EU under the Tories or continuing them for years under LabourSouthamObserver said:
We leave in March 2019. A deal will need to be finalised way before that so it can be approved by EU27 member states and the UK Parliament, and its provisions put in place.HYUFD said:
The end point for talks is March 2019 and of course the EU also has an interested in keeping at least some of the billions it is set to lose once the UK leaves the EUSouthamObserver said:
If we don't agree a payment schedule we'll have walked off the cliff way before 2020 and there'll be no transition.HYUFD said:
Indeed, it will be a general election in 2020 and an end to free movement and big payments to the EU with the Tories or their continuing for years under LabourBig_G_NorthWales said:
This is the point I have been making for some time. The Brexit bill will be pivotal to public opinion and the government standing firm against 20 billion plus will see the narrative turn very much against the EU.HYUFD said:
Makes it even more likely the transition period lasts no longer than a year then it is full Brexit under Boriswilliamglenn said:The ICM polling on the Brexit bill is interesting and will be giving the government a big headache.
£10bn: Acceptable: 41% - Not acceptable: 40%
£20bn: Acceptable: 18% - Not acceptable: 65%
£30bn: Acceptable: 11% - Not acceptable: 72%
£40bn: Acceptable: 9% - Not acceptable: 75%
I would also ask the remainers which politician or party is going to concede to the EU on a large Brexit bill
0 -
so in other words he's more relevant to what people are interested in than BrexitGardenwalker said:
The same reason they reported ad nauseum on Love Island, with the added titillation of moral horror.Alanbrooke said:
bizarreGardenwalker said:
China may not "like" the EU, but it is forced to reckon with it.HYUFD said:
China has no love for the EU after it refused to recognise it as a market economyGardenwalker said:
But you don't really believe that. It's the sort of guff countries say after G20s. they would have said it about the Austrian-Hungarians if the G20 had been a thing in say, 1913.HYUFD said:
Says who? The USA and indeed China at the G20 said post Brexit UK had a great future and they are the 2 most powerful nations on the planetGardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
The government still looks to be aiming for a hard Brexit but with seemingly no accompanying policy initiatives.
We have crippled our government and are somewhere between a laughing stock and a global irrelevance.
Why are we doing this again?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/816526/Angela-Merkel-EU-European-Union-China-WTO-market-economy-status/amp
Trump backed Brexit even before the referendum
Trump is increasingly an irrelevance and a joke.
if he's such an irrelevance why are the media reporting everything he does ?
hardly an irrelevance then0 -
You're just repeating yourself. Trump is a sideshow. The US "establishment" and China are both pro-Remain.HYUFD said:
The US President is the first US President in post-war history to have advocated the UK leave the EU when the UK PM was arguing it should stay, China could not really care less either wayGardenwalker said:
I don't think that's a credible statement.HYUFD said:
Nonetheless it shows neither think we made a massive error leaving the EU, at most both are indifferentGardenwalker said:
China may not "like" the EU, but it is forced to reckon with it.HYUFD said:
China has no love for the EU after it refused to recognise it as a market economyGardenwalker said:
But you don't really believe that. It's the sort of guff countries say after G20s. they would have said it about the Austrian-Hungarians if the G20 had been a thing in say, 1913.HYUFD said:
Says who? The USA and indeed China at the G20 said post Brexit UK had a great future and they are the 2 most powerful nations on the planetGardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
The government still looks to be aiming for a hard Brexit but with seemingly no accompanying policy initiatives.
We have crippled our government and are somewhere between a laughing stock and a global irrelevance.
Why are we doing this again?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/816526/Angela-Merkel-EU-European-Union-China-WTO-market-economy-status/amp
Trump backed Brexit even before the referendum
Trump is increasingly an irrelevance and a joke.
Both China and the US supported the UK in Brexit - and for similar reasons - as a potentially powerful pro-trade ally within the EU.
With the UK heading out, we undeniably lose some of our influence with the two superpowers of the 21st century.
Some on this board positively welcome that. I do not.0 -
Who was it that came up with article 50?SouthamObserver said:
The UK triggered A50 without fully understanding how the process would work and without a negotiating strategy.Mortimer said:
Then we have a stupid impasse again, like the Irish issue. Who came up with this crap timetable again?SouthamObserver said:
Only if we get to a point where the EU27 agree to a transition deal. That won't happen without the UK agreeing a payment deal.HYUFD said:
Negotiations on any trade agreement will likely run into 2020 but whether in 2019 or 2020 the general election choice will be the same - ending free movement and large payments to the EU under the Tories or continuing them for years under LabourSouthamObserver said:
We leave in March 2019. A deal will need to be finalised way before that so it can be approved by EU27 member states and the UK Parliament, and its provisions put in place.HYUFD said:
The end point for talks is March 2019 and of course the EU also has an interested in keeping at least some of the billions it is set to lose once the UK leaves the EUSouthamObserver said:
If we don't agree a payment schedule we'll have walked off the cliff way before 2020 and there'll be no transition.HYUFD said:
Indeed, it will be a general election in 2020 and an end to free movement and big payments to the EU with the Tories or their continuing for years under LabourBig_G_NorthWales said:
This is the point I have been making for some time. The Brexit bill will be pivotal to public opinion and the government standing firm against 20 billion plus will see the narrative turn very much against the EU.HYUFD said:
Makes it even more likely the transition period lasts no longer than a year then it is full Brexit under Boriswilliamglenn said:The ICM polling on the Brexit bill is interesting and will be giving the government a big headache.
£10bn: Acceptable: 41% - Not acceptable: 40%
£20bn: Acceptable: 18% - Not acceptable: 65%
£30bn: Acceptable: 11% - Not acceptable: 72%
£40bn: Acceptable: 9% - Not acceptable: 75%
I would also ask the remainers which politician or party is going to concede to the EU on a large Brexit bill0 -
This reminds me of being at Pakistan v England in Abu Dhabi a couple of years ago. With all three results still possible and about five overs left they went off for bad light. The ultimate anticlimax.Mortimer said:
Doesn't light get offered?Pulpstar said:Lay West Indies 2.22 £10.00 £12.20 (Just for interest)
Bad light stops play I reckon...
The light laws are weird and umpires interpret them over-conservatively.
Edit: Root can keep the quicks on to force the decision too..
Hick and Thorpe won in the dark in pakistan a decade or so back....
Edit: a dozen for the Windies from that over. England are gonna lose this.0 -
Whether we get a transition deal or not for a year or so or a trade deal does not really make much difference as we will still be out fully under the Tories soon enough, only Labour is committed to a long term transition, long term continued free movement and long term continued payments to the EUSouthamObserver said:
Only if we get to a point where the EU27 agree to a transition deal. That won't happen without the UK agreeing a payment deal.HYUFD said:
Negotiations on any trade agreement will likely run into 2020 but whether in 2019 or 2020 the general election choice will be the same - ending free movement and large payments to the EU under the Tories or continuing them for years under LabourSouthamObserver said:
We leave in March 2019. A deal will need to be finalised way before that so it can be approved by EU27 member states and the UK Parliament, and its provisions put in place.HYUFD said:
The end point for talks is March 2019 and of course the EU also has an interested in keeping at least some of the billions it is set to lose once the UK leaves the EUSouthamObserver said:
If we don't agree a payment schedule we'll have walked off the cliff way before 2020 and there'll be no transition.HYUFD said:
Indeed, it will be a general election in 2020 and an end to free movement and big payments to the EU with the Tories or their continuing for years under LabourBig_G_NorthWales said:
This is the point I have been making for some time. The Brexit bill will be pivotal to public opinion and the government standing firm against 20 billion plus will see the narrative turn very much against the EU.HYUFD said:
Makes it even more likely the transition period lasts no longer than a year then it is full Brexit under Boriswilliamglenn said:The ICM polling on the Brexit bill is interesting and will be giving the government a big headache.
£10bn: Acceptable: 41% - Not acceptable: 40%
£20bn: Acceptable: 18% - Not acceptable: 65%
£30bn: Acceptable: 11% - Not acceptable: 72%
£40bn: Acceptable: 9% - Not acceptable: 75%
I would also ask the remainers which politician or party is going to concede to the EU on a large Brexit bill0 -
I'm sure the yanks and Chinese are gagging to transfer all their investment to Malta.Gardenwalker said:
You're just repeating yourself. Trump is a sideshow. The US "establishment" and China are both pro-Remain.HYUFD said:
The US President is the first US President in post-war history to have advocated the UK leave the EU when the UK PM was arguing it should stay, China could not really care less either wayGardenwalker said:
I don't think that's a credible statement.HYUFD said:
Nonetheless it shows neither think we made a massive error leaving the EU, at most both are indifferentGardenwalker said:
China may not "like" the EU, but it is forced to reckon with it.HYUFD said:
China has no love for the EU after it refused to recognise it as a market economyGardenwalker said:
But you don't really believe that. It's the sort of guff countries say after G20s. they would have said it about the Austrian-Hungarians if the G20 had been a thing in say, 1913.HYUFD said:
Says who? The USA and indeed China at the G20 said post Brexit UK had a great future and they are the 2 most powerful nations on the planetGardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
The government still looks to be aiming for a hard Brexit but with seemingly no accompanying policy initiatives.
We have crippled our government and are somewhere between a laughing stock and a global irrelevance.
Why are we doing this again?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/816526/Angela-Merkel-EU-European-Union-China-WTO-market-economy-status/amp
Trump backed Brexit even before the referendum
Trump is increasingly an irrelevance and a joke.
Both China and the US supported the UK in Brexit - and for similar reasons - as a potentially powerful pro-trade ally within the EU.
With the UK heading out, we undeniably lose some of our influence with the two superpowers of the 21st century.
Some on this board positively welcome that. I do not.0 -
This is essential, and the major flaw in the EU's stance for all "de haut en bas" comments from the likes of Junker, treating us as if we are naughty school kids late with their homework. Any "bill" is only worth paying or not worth paying in the context of the rest of the deal concerning trade and citizens' rights/ECJ.Richard_Nabavi said:
The problem with that analysis is the EU27 are not offering a deal in return for the money. If they were, we could have a sensible negotiation.FF43 said:Assuming the EU and member countries don't care what the UK public think about the money demands, the problem is that walking away without a deal doesn't resolve anything. Massively the opposite actually. There will be chaos and our government would have justify that chaos to the public. They are far better taking the hit on the money and moving on.
40bn might be sellable and "cheap", equally 5bn might be a total pointless waste.
To use a cricket analogy (seems appropriate today) 170/9 might be below an average score but perfectly fine if you were 250 ahead from the first innings and you've had a quick blast in order to leave three and a bit sessions to bowl the opponents out. If it's your tea score on day one of a five dayer on a perfect wicket in sunny conditions with a ball doing nothing - it's rubbish.0 -
In foreign policy the President and his administration are the current establishment in the US, as I said China could not care less either way.Gardenwalker said:
You're just repeating yourself. Trump is a sideshow. The US "establishment" and China are both pro-Remain.HYUFD said:
The US President is the first US President in post-war history to have advocated the UK leave the EU when the UK PM was arguing it should stay, China could not really care less either wayGardenwalker said:
I don't think that's a credible statement.HYUFD said:
Nonetheless it shows neither think we made a massive error leaving the EU, at most both are indifferentGardenwalker said:
China may not "like" the EU, but it is forced to reckon with it.HYUFD said:
China has no love for the EU after it refused to recognise eferendumGardenwalker said:
But you don't really believe that. It's the sort of guff countries say after G20s. they would have said it about the Austrian-Hungarians if the G20 had been a thing in say, 1913.HYUFD said:
Says who? The USA and indeed China at the G20 said post Brexit UK had a great future and they are the 2 most powerful nations on the planetGardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
The government still looks to be aiming for a hard Brexit but with seemingly no accompanying policy initiatives.
We have crippled our government and are somewhere between a laughing stock and a global irrelevance.
Why are we doing this again?
Trump is increasingly an irrelevance and a joke.
Both China and the US supported the UK in Brexit - and for similar reasons - as a potentially powerful pro-trade ally within the EU.
With the UK heading out, we undeniably lose some of our influence with the two superpowers of the 21st century.
Some on this board positively welcome that. I do not.
As I have already pointed out China is not a great fan of the EU at present and Trump has no love for it either0 -
But that will be irrelevant by 2020 if there is no deal. We'll have jumped off the cliff. Any election would be about the consequences.HYUFD said:
Whether we get a transition deal or not for a year or so or a trade deal does not really make much difference as we will still be out fully under the Tories soon enough, only Labour is committed to a long term transition, long term continued free movement and long term continued payments to the EUSouthamObserver said:
Only if we get to a point where the EU27 agree to a transition deal. That won't happen without the UK agreeing a payment deal.HYUFD said:
Negotiations on any trade agreement will likely run into 2020 but whether in 2019 or 2020 the general election choice will be the same - ending free movement and large payments to the EU under the Tories or continuing them for years under LabourSouthamObserver said:
We leave in March 2019. A deal will need to be finalised way before that so it can be approved by EU27 member states and the UK Parliament, and its provisions put in place.HYUFD said:
The end point for talks is March 2019 and of course the EU also has an interested in keeping at least some of the billions it is set to lose once the UK leaves the EUSouthamObserver said:
If we don't agree a payment schedule we'll have walked off the cliff way before 2020 and there'll be no transition.HYUFD said:
Indeed, it will be a general election in 2020 and an end to free movement and big payments to the EU with the Tories or their continuing for years under LabourBig_G_NorthWales said:
This is the point I have been making for some time. The Brexit bill will be pivotal to public opinion and the government standing firm against 20 billion plus will see the narrative turn very much against the EU.HYUFD said:
Makes it even more likely the transition period lasts no longer than a year then it is full Brexit under Boriswilliamglenn said:The ICM polling on the Brexit bill is interesting and will be giving the government a big headache.
£10bn: Acceptable: 41% - Not acceptable: 40%
£20bn: Acceptable: 18% - Not acceptable: 65%
£30bn: Acceptable: 11% - Not acceptable: 72%
£40bn: Acceptable: 9% - Not acceptable: 75%
I would also ask the remainers which politician or party is going to concede to the EU on a large Brexit bill
0 -
I'm talking about Brexit, though. In fact it is you who are talking irrelevantly.Alanbrooke said:
so in other words he's more relevant to what people are interested in than BrexitGardenwalker said:
The same reason they reported ad nauseum on Love Island, with the added titillation of moral horror.Alanbrooke said:
bizarreGardenwalker said:
China may not "like" the EU, but it is forced to reckon with it.HYUFD said:
China has no love for the EU after it refused to recognise it as a market economyGardenwalker said:
But you don't really believe that. It's the sort of guff countries say after G20s. they would have said it about the Austrian-Hungarians if the G20 had been a thing in say, 1913.HYUFD said:
Says who? The USA and indeed China at the G20 said post Brexit UK had a great future and they are the 2 most powerful nations on the planetGardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
The government still looks to be aiming for a hard Brexit but with seemingly no accompanying policy initiatives.
We have crippled our government and are somewhere between a laughing stock and a global irrelevance.
Why are we doing this again?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/816526/Angela-Merkel-EU-European-Union-China-WTO-market-economy-status/amp
Trump backed Brexit even before the referendum
Trump is increasingly an irrelevance and a joke.
if he's such an irrelevance why are the media reporting everything he does ?
hardly an irrelevance then0 -
A majority of UK trade goes outside the EU so no whatever happens, even tariffs, it may be harder but we are not jumping off a cliff. The next general election will be about affirming support for controlling free movement for the next few years and ending continued large payments to the EU or staying in the single market for years with continued unlimited immigration and continued vast payments to the EUSouthamObserver said:
But that will be irrelevant by 2020 if there is no deal. We'll have jumped off the cliff. Any election would be about the consequences.HYUFD said:
Whether we get a transition deal or not for a year or so orSouthamObserver said:
Only if we get to a point where the EU27 agree to a transition deal. That won't happen without the UK agreeing a payment deal.HYUFD said:
Negotiations on any trade agreement will likely run into 2020 but whetherSouthamObserver said:
We leave in March 2019. A deal will need to be finalised way before that so it can be approved by EU27 member states and the UK Parliament, and its provisions put in place.HYUFD said:
The end point for talks is March 2019 and of course the EU also has an interested in keeping at least some of the billions it is set to lose once the UK leaves the EUSouthamObserver said:
If we don't agree a payment schedule we'll have walked off the cliff way before 2020 and there'll be no transition.HYUFD said:
Indeed, it will be a general election in 2020 and an end to free movement and big payments to the EU with the Tories or their continuing for years under LabourBig_G_NorthWales said:
This is the point I have been making for some time. The Brexit bill will be pivotal to public opinion and the government standing firm against 20 billion plus will see the narrative turn very much against the EU.HYUFD said:
Makes it even more likely the transition period lasts no longer than a year then it is full Brexit under Boriswilliamglenn said:The ICM polling on the Brexit bill is interesting and will be giving the government a big headache.
£10bn: Acceptable: 41% - Not acceptable: 40%
£20bn: Acceptable: 18% - Not acceptable: 65%
£30bn: Acceptable: 11% - Not acceptable: 72%
£40bn: Acceptable: 9% - Not acceptable: 75%
I would also ask the remainers which politician or party is going to concede to the EU on a large Brexit bill0 -
A Brit, I believe. Leavers like Davis, Boris & Fox had years to understand how things would work. They didn't bother.Mortimer said:
Who was it that came up with article 50?SouthamObserver said:
The UK triggered A50 without fully understanding how the process would work and without a negotiating strategy.Mortimer said:
Then we have a stupid impasse again, like the Irish issue. Who came up with this crap timetable again?SouthamObserver said:
Only if we get to a point where the EU27 agree to a transition deal. That won't happen without the UK agreeing a payment deal.HYUFD said:
Negotiations on any trade agreement will likely run into 2020 but whether in 2019 or 2020 the general election choice will be the same - ending free movement and large payments to the EU under the Tories or continuing them for years under LabourSouthamObserver said:
We leave in March 2019. A deal will need to be finalised way before that so it can be approved by EU27 member states and the UK Parliament, and its provisions put in place.HYUFD said:
The end point for talks is March 2019 and of course the EU also has an interested in keeping at least some of the billions it is set to lose once the UK leaves the EUSouthamObserver said:
If we don't agree a payment schedule we'll have walked off the cliff way before 2020 and there'll be no transition.HYUFD said:
Indeed, it will be a general election in 2020 and an end to free movement and big payments to the EU with the Tories or their continuing for years under LabourBig_G_NorthWales said:
This is the point I have been making for some time. The Brexit bill will be pivotal to public opinion and the government standing firm against 20 billion plus will see the narrative turn very much against the EU.HYUFD said:
Makes it even more likely the transition period lasts no longer than a year then it is full Brexit under Boriswilliamglenn said:The ICM polling on the Brexit bill is interesting and will be giving the government a big headache.
£10bn: Acceptable: 41% - Not acceptable: 40%
£20bn: Acceptable: 18% - Not acceptable: 65%
£30bn: Acceptable: 11% - Not acceptable: 72%
£40bn: Acceptable: 9% - Not acceptable: 75%
I would also ask the remainers which politician or party is going to concede to the EU on a large Brexit bill
0 -
If you say so, Morty. But I demur. You may not like it, but that very sentiment has been pushed in the Express/Mail/Sun on a daily basis for the last 30 years and a good proportion of the leave vote saw it that way accordingly. I see it on my facebook feed every day. So I'm not sure that the vote was driven by anyone's natural superiority except those who still seem to see England, and yes it is largely England, as the special country. Dear God, don't we see it every World Cup. Have we learnt nothing from it?Mortimer said:
This quote is a good indication of why so many voted Leave. Because smug Remainers stopped listening and assumed they had natural superiority.Monksfield said:
Because a proportion of our population likes waving flags and mooning in a superior fashion at the furriners across the Channel.Gardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
The government still looks to be aiming for a hard Brexit but with seemingly no accompanying policy initiatives.
We have crippled our government and are somewhere between a laughing stock and a global irrelevance.
Why are we doing this again?
0 -
6 runs needed
6 wickets remaining
6 overs left.0 -
Mortimer said:
Jeez the Brexiters are talking shite tonight.Gardenwalker said:
I'm sure the yanks and Chinese are gagging to transfer all their investment to Malta.HYUFD said:
You're just repeating yourself. Trump is a sideshow. The US "establishment" and China are both pro-Remain.Gardenwalker said:
The US President is the first US President in post-war history to have advocated the UK leave the EU when the UK PM was arguing it should stay, China could not really care less either wayHYUFD said:
I don't think that's a credible statement.Gardenwalker said:
Nonetheless it shows neither think we made a massive error leaving the EU, at most both are indifferentHYUFD said:
China may not "like" the EU, but it is forced to reckon with it.Gardenwalker said:
Trump backed Brexit even before the referendumHYUFD said:
Says who? The USA and indeed China at the G20 said post Brexit UK had a great future and they are the 2 most powerful nations on the planetGardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
The government still looks to be aiming for a hard Brexit but with seemingly no accompanying policy initiatives.
We have crippled our government and are somewhere between a laughing stock and a global irrelevance.
Why are we doing this again?
Trump is increasingly an irrelevance and a joke.
Both China and the US supported the UK in Brexit - and for similar reasons - as a potentially powerful pro-trade ally within the EU.
With the UK heading out, we undeniably lose some of our influence with the two superpowers of the 21st century.
Some on this board positively welcome that. I do not.
I can only assume there's absolutely no substance there.
Must be traumatising to have actually *voted* for this circus.0 -
You can repeat the same cliched analogies all you want. It doesn't make them any more true than "losing the City to Frankfurt" when we didn't join the Euro. This so-called cliff jumping will be a mild slowdown, a flurry of retweeted news stories in a few sectors, and then continued growth. Albeit with a better skill mix in immigration, less money sent to Brussels and more control over our own laws.SouthamObserver said:
But that will be irrelevant by 2020 if there is no deal. We'll have jumped off the cliff. Any election would be about the consequences.HYUFD said:SouthamObserver said:
Only if we get to a point where the EU27 agree to a transition deal. That won't happen without the UK agreeing a payment deal.HYUFD said:
Negotiations on any trade agreement will likely run into 2020 but whether in 2019 or 2020 the general election choice will be the same - ending free movement and large payments to the EU under the Tories or continuing them for years under LabourSouthamObserver said:
We leave in March 2019. A deal will need to be finalised way before that so it can be approved by EU27 member states and the UK Parliament, and its provisions put in place.HYUFD said:
The end point for talks is March 2019 and of course the EU also has an interested in keeping at least some of the billions it is set to lose once the UK leaves the EUSouthamObserver said:
If we don't agree a payment schedule we'll have walked off the cliff way before 2020 and there'll be no transition.HYUFD said:
Indeed, it will be a general election in 2020 and an end to free movement and big payments to the EU with the Tories or their continuing for years under LabourBig_G_NorthWales said:
This is the point I have been making for some time. The Brexit bill will be pivotal to public opinion and the government standing firm against 20 billion plus will see the narrative turn very much against the EU.HYUFD said:
Makes it even more likely the transition period lasts no longer than a year then it is full Brexit under Boriswilliamglenn said:The ICM polling on the Brexit bill is interesting and will be giving the government a big headache.
£10bn: Acceptable: 41% - Not acceptable: 40%
£20bn: Acceptable: 18% - Not acceptable: 65%
£30bn: Acceptable: 11% - Not acceptable: 72%
£40bn: Acceptable: 9% - Not acceptable: 75%
I would also ask the remainers which politician or party is going to concede to the EU on a large Brexit bill0 -
That's simply not true. Remainers mocked Davis for saying national governments would add pressure to Brussels' negotiating stance. Now it turns out the French are doing exactly that. He was the one that understood the whole time, while Remainers wrongly argued we were an unimportant minnow.SouthamObserver said:
A Brit, I believe. Leavers like Davis, Boris & Fox had years to understand how things would work. They didn't bother.
0 -
I would regret the loss of influence, if I thought we had any. In fact the closest we got with the US was that in the Iraq war Bush temporarily granted us Most Favoured Sycophant status, and China has probably scarcely heard of us. Quite simply, we are small beer.Gardenwalker said:
You're just repeating yourself. Trump is a sideshow. The US "establishment" and China are both pro-Remain.
With the UK heading out, we undeniably lose some of our influence with the two superpowers of the 21st century.
Some on this board positively welcome that. I do not.0 -
seems to me you havent much an idea of what is happening around youGardenwalker said:
I'm talking about Brexit, though. In fact it is you who are talking irrelevantly.Alanbrooke said:
so in other words he's more relevant to what people are interested in than BrexitGardenwalker said:
The same reason they reported ad nauseum on Love Island, with the added titillation of moral horror.Alanbrooke said:
bizarreGardenwalker said:
China may not "like" the EU, but it is forced to reckon with it.HYUFD said:
China has no love for the EU after it refused to recognise it as a market economyGardenwalker said:
But you don't really believe that. It's the sort of guff countries say after G20s. they would have said it about the Austrian-Hungarians if the G20 had been a thing in say, 1913.HYUFD said:
Says who? The USA and indeed China at the G20 said post Brexit UK had a great future and they are the 2 most powerful nations on the planetGardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
The government still looks to be aiming for a hard Brexit but with seemingly no accompanying policy initiatives.
We have crippled our government and are somewhere between a laughing stock and a global irrelevance.
Why are we doing this again?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/816526/Angela-Merkel-EU-European-Union-China-WTO-market-economy-status/amp
Trump backed Brexit even before the referendum
Trump is increasingly an irrelevance and a joke.
if he's such an irrelevance why are the media reporting everything he does ?
hardly an irrelevance then
0 -
On the contrary, they seem to have read Article 50, but the EU27 don't, or at least are pretending not to see the bit about 'taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union'.SouthamObserver said:A Brit, I believe. Leavers like Davis, Boris & Fox had years to understand how things would work. They didn't bother.
0 -
That reminded me of Headingley 01, only the other way around. Hope = Butcher, Braithwaite = Hussain, Blackwood = Ramprakash.
And Root = Gilchrist's captaincy...0 -
Was Root right to declare last night? Probably depends on what happens at Lords.0
-
Apart from China the US, Russia and maybe India there are not really that many bigger beers out of 190 global nationsIshmael_Z said:
I would regret the loss of influence, if I thought we had any. In fact the closest we got with the US was that in the Iraq war Bush temporarily granted us Most Favoured Sycophant status, and China has probably scarcely heard of us. Quite simply, we are small beer.Gardenwalker said:
You're just repeating yourself. Trump is a sideshow. The US "establishment" and China are both pro-Remain.
With the UK heading out, we undeniably lose some of our influence with the two superpowers of the 21st century.
Some on this board positively welcome that. I do not.0 -
People have not changed their minds about Brexit. A second vote would produce a similar result.Gardenwalker said:
Yes, and the government committed to pursuing a Leave agenda, even though what "Leave" meant was never defined.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Assume you support remaining in the EU but the answer to your last question is because the UK voted to leaveGardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
The government still looks to be aiming for a hard Brexit but with seemingly no accompanying policy initiatives.
We have crippled our government and are somewhere between a laughing stock and a global irrelevance.
Why are we doing this again?
But that was 12 months ago. It's clearer now - according to polls - that we don't actually like what "Leave" means. To a small but significant majority, any way.
The only argument for Brexit can't be simply that we voted for it. We also voted for the Iraq war. When is it OK for a people to change their mind?
Keir Starmer gets it and has manoeuvred appropriately. it's time to reverse ferret, in the most elegant way possible.0 -
We can propose what we like with whatever conditionality we like just as the EU have done. We don't because the government is unwilling to justify any plausible figure to the British public. What the EU will offer is a degree of continuity. They won't offer a trade deal beyond an agreement to have one at some point. Brexit will be expensive because we will be going a la carte instead buying the package and because we will aim to buy influence as a substitute for membership and direct influence. It's pay to play basically.Richard_Nabavi said:
The problem with that analysis is the EU27 are not offering a deal in return for the money. If they were, we could have a sensible negotiation.FF43 said:Assuming the EU and member countries don't care what the UK public think about the money demands, the problem is that walking away without a deal doesn't resolve anything. Massively the opposite actually. There will be chaos and our government would have justify that chaos to the public. They are far better taking the hit on the money and moving on.
0 -
It's true I didn't see Love Island.Alanbrooke said:
seems to me you havent much an idea of what is happening around youGardenwalker said:
I'm talking about Brexit, though. In fact it is you who are talking irrelevantly.Alanbrooke said:
so in other words he's more relevant to what people are interested in than BrexitGardenwalker said:
The same reason they reported ad nauseum on Love Island, with the added titillation of moral horror.Alanbrooke said:
bizarreGardenwalker said:
China may not "like" the EU, but it is forced to reckon with it.HYUFD said:
China has no love for the EU after it refused to recognise it as a market economyGardenwalker said:
But you don't really believe that. It's the sort of guff countries say after G20s. they would have said it about the Austrian-Hungarians if the G20 had been a thing in say, 1913.HYUFD said:
Says who? The USA and indeed China at the G20 said post Brexit UK had a great future and they are the 2 most powerful nations on the planetGardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
The government still looks to be aiming for a hard Brexit but with seemingly no accompanying policy initiatives.
We have crippled our government and are somewhere between a laughing stock and a global irrelevance.
Why are we doing this again?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/816526/Angela-Merkel-EU-European-Union-China-WTO-market-economy-status/amp
Trump backed Brexit even before the referendum
Trump is increasingly an irrelevance and a joke.
if he's such an irrelevance why are the media reporting everything he does ?
hardly an irrelevance then
So can't really comment on its "relevance" in preference to any coherent pro-Brexit argument.0 -
At least, according to the Telegraph.CornishJohn said:
That's simply not true. Remainers mocked Davis for saying national governments would add pressure to Brussels' negotiating stance. Now it turns out the French are doing exactly that. He was the one that understood the whole time, while Remainers wrongly argued we were an unimportant minnow.SouthamObserver said:
A Brit, I believe. Leavers like Davis, Boris & Fox had years to understand how things would work. They didn't bother.
Which is well known these days for its investment in journalism and acute political insight.0 -
England, you bunch of mucking fuppets declaring early again, don’t you ever learn?
On the other hand, £60 at 10.5 on the Windies from lunchtime, thank you very much!0 -
LOLCornishJohn said:
That's simply not true. Remainers mocked Davis for saying national governments would add pressure to Brussels' negotiating stance. Now it turns out the French are doing exactly that. He was the one that understood the whole time, while Remainers wrongly argued we were an unimportant minnow.SouthamObserver said:
A Brit, I believe. Leavers like Davis, Boris & Fox had years to understand how things would work. They didn't bother.
https://twitter.com/daviddavismp/status/735770073822961664
https://twitter.com/daviddavismp/status/735770127564607489
0 -
I think that's the point. Younger people in 1975 overwhelmingly voted for EU membership. What did the EU do to make them change their minds?AnneJGP said:
What seems rather more interesting, to me, is why the experience of the previous 40 years failed to convert so many Leavers.AlastairMeeks said:So overall, no change (after a brief bump for Jeremy Corbyn after the general election).
No change is in itself interesting. Why has the experience of the last year failed to convert Remainers?
In my own case I was a fervent "Joiner" who wanted to believe in the political project. The past 40-odd years converted me to a Leaver.0 -
And the EU are the ones who can't and won't negotiate.Richard_Nabavi said:
On the contrary, they seem to have read Article 50, but the EU27 don't, or at least are pretending not to see the bit about 'taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union'.SouthamObserver said:A Brit, I believe. Leavers like Davis, Boris & Fox had years to understand how things would work. They didn't bother.
Junker will continue to give any papers we submit an F grade, unless they have reflected and accepted the EU position. They aren't negotiating they are confirming the position they hold, a position which is handed to the facilitators (Barnier and Co.) as the agreement that the EU 27 have come to.0 -
Not sure. I have a friend who couldn't make up his mind and abstained. He is now firmly in the remain camp. Any revote would be knife edge imo. Which wouldn't resolve anything.Sean_F said:
People have not changed their minds about Brexit. A second vote would produce a similar result.Gardenwalker said:
Yes, and the government committed to pursuing a Leave agenda, even though what "Leave" meant was never defined.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Assume you support remaining in the EU but the answer to your last question is because the UK voted to leaveGardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
The government still looks to be aiming for a hard Brexit but with seemingly no accompanying policy initiatives.
We have crippled our government and are somewhere between a laughing stock and a global irrelevance.
Why are we doing this again?
But that was 12 months ago. It's clearer now - according to polls - that we don't actually like what "Leave" means. To a small but significant majority, any way.
The only argument for Brexit can't be simply that we voted for it. We also voted for the Iraq war. When is it OK for a people to change their mind?
Keir Starmer gets it and has manoeuvred appropriately. it's time to reverse ferret, in the most elegant way possible.0 -
I think you're right - broadly similar +-5%Sean_F said:
People have not changed their minds about Brexit. A second vote would produce a similar result.Gardenwalker said:
Yes, and the government committed to pursuing a Leave agenda, even though what "Leave" meant was never defined.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Assume you support remaining in the EU but the answer to your last question is because the UK voted to leaveGardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
The government still looks to be aiming for a hard Brexit but with seemingly no accompanying policy initiatives.
We have crippled our government and are somewhere between a laughing stock and a global irrelevance.
Why are we doing this again?
But that was 12 months ago. It's clearer now - according to polls - that we don't actually like what "Leave" means. To a small but significant majority, any way.
The only argument for Brexit can't be simply that we voted for it. We also voted for the Iraq war. When is it OK for a people to change their mind?
Keir Starmer gets it and has manoeuvred appropriately. it's time to reverse ferret, in the most elegant way possible.
But if remain won 52/48, what would that achieve?
"Remain means remain!" for the next 30 years?
"Our European future is secure!"
That would be the political interpretation of such a result - as profoundly wrong and undemocratic as the outcome being pursued by the nutters currently in government.0 -
Yes it is pay to play - sure. But what's on offer? Full tariff free access no holds barred just like now, with full control of borders without ECJ, and some technology Norway/Sweden style border betweeen Armagh and Dundalk, or no guarantee about tariffs, full ECJ control full immigration rights as now? Or something between the two? - the more likely one would think.FF43 said:
We can propose what we like with whatever conditionality we like just as the EU have done. We don't because the government is unwilling to justify any plausible figure to the British public. What the EU will offer is a degree of continuity. They won't offer a trade deal beyond an agreement to have one at some point. Brexit will be expensive because we will be going a la carte instead buying the package and because we will aim to buy influence as a substitute for membership and direct influence. It's pay to play basically.Richard_Nabavi said:
The problem with that analysis is the EU27 are not offering a deal in return for the money. If they were, we could have a sensible negotiation.FF43 said:Assuming the EU and member countries don't care what the UK public think about the money demands, the problem is that walking away without a deal doesn't resolve anything. Massively the opposite actually. There will be chaos and our government would have justify that chaos to the public. They are far better taking the hit on the money and moving on.
If I offer £50 without seeing the a la carte possibilities am I getting fine dining or baked potato with cheesy beans and a vertical fish finger sticking out of it? I'd like an idea before offering £50, or £40 or 99p,0 -
Compare the relative international influence of May vs Merkel and Blair vs Schroeder.Ishmael_Z said:
I would regret the loss of influence, if I thought we had any. In fact the closest we got with the US was that in the Iraq war Bush temporarily granted us Most Favoured Sycophant status, and China has probably scarcely heard of us. Quite simply, we are small beer.Gardenwalker said:
You're just repeating yourself. Trump is a sideshow. The US "establishment" and China are both pro-Remain.
With the UK heading out, we undeniably lose some of our influence with the two superpowers of the 21st century.
Some on this board positively welcome that. I do not.
Now it could be just my warped view of the world but I think it's fair to say that the pendulum has swung towards the German leader. The primary reason for our decline is our political estrangement from the EU since we opted out of the Euro.0 -
maybe thats the learning point and you should get out more and mix with ordinary peopleGardenwalker said:
It's true I didn't see Love Island.Alanbrooke said:
seems to me you havent much an idea of what is happening around youGardenwalker said:
I'm talking about Brexit, though. In fact it is you who are talking irrelevantly.Alanbrooke said:
so in other wordsevance thenGardenwalker said:
The same reason they reported ad nauseum on Love Island, with the added titillation of moral horror.Alanbrooke said:
bizarreGardenwalker said:
China may not "like" the EU, but it is and a joke.HYUFD said:
China has no love for the EU after it refused to recognise it as a market economyGardenwalker said:
But you don't really believe that. It's the sort of guff countries say after G20s. they would have said it about the Austrian-Hungarians if the G20 had been a thing in say, 1913.HYUFD said:
Says who? The USA and indeed China at the G20 said post Brexit UK had a great future and they are the 2 most powerful nations on the planetGardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
again?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/816526/Angela-Merkel-EU-European-Union-China-WTO-market-economy-status/amp
Trump backed Brexit even before the referendum
if he's such an irrelevance why are the media reporting everything he does ?
So can't really comment on its "relevance" in preference to any coherent pro-Brexit argument.
the Brexit vote as well as the GE simply show that the UK public have had enough of a political model which no longer commands confidence
the UK establishment has been sent back to the drawing board and told to have a rethink
the sooner you come to terms with it the more time you will have for love island
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-4833128/Love-Island-Rykard-Jenkins-emerges-nightclub-assault.html0 -
You thicko , not everybody who voted yes was an SNP voter. How stupid can one person be. There is no correlation.HYUFD said:
I was talking about ICM but the yougov subsample still has the SNP below the 45% Yes got in 2014Theuniondivvie said:
No need to make guesses about a subsample when you can actually look at the Yougov one.HYUFD said:
So Tories and LDs now unchanged from the general election but Labour up 2%, presumably from the SNP? If so more bad news for SturgeonRichard_Nabavi said:A new ICM poll shows a similar picture:
Labour: 42% (down 1 from Guardian/ICM in mid July)
Conservatives: 42% (no change)
Lib Dems: 7% (no change)
Ukip: 3% (no change)
Greens: 3% (up 1)
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/aug/29/executive-pay-tuc-boss-says-mays-plans-to-curb-excessive-executive-pay-are-feeble-politics-live
16:15
It's interesting that so far Vince doesn't seem to be attracting more support for the LibDems than Tim Farron managed, but I suspect that people aren't paying that much attention to politics at the moment,
Which I'm sure you already have.0 -
Wonderful new road bridge at Queensferry Malc.malcolmg said:
Evening GINGIN1138 said:How long until we go back to 25 smiling Theresa's?
Coming home from the north east last week we went over the old bridge which would you believe I watched from my bedroom window in Edinburgh being built over 4 years and crossed it on opening day.
Showing my age just like the old bridge0 -
"Taking into account" is woolly and ambiguous. No-one bothered to find out how the EU27 might interpret it. Instead, the Leavers said we held all the cards, a deal would be easy, we'd get numerous beneficial FTAs done in no time. It turns out they did not understand how the EU works, what drives FTA dealmaking and how complex EU withdrawal would be. They never took the time to find out.Richard_Nabavi said:
On the contrary, they seem to have read Article 50, but the EU27 don't, or at least are pretending not to see the bit about 'taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union'.SouthamObserver said:A Brit, I believe. Leavers like Davis, Boris & Fox had years to understand how things would work. They didn't bother.
0 -
No correlation at all?malcolmg said:
You thicko , not everybody who voted yes was an SNP voter. How stupid can one person be. There is no correlation.HYUFD said:
I was talking about ICM but the yougov subsample still has the SNP below the 45% Yes got in 2014Theuniondivvie said:
No need to make guesses about a subsample when you can actually look at the Yougov one.HYUFD said:
So Tories and LDs now unchanged from the general election but Labour up 2%, presumably from the SNP? If so more bad news for SturgeonRichard_Nabavi said:A new ICM poll shows a similar picture:
Labour: 42% (down 1 from Guardian/ICM in mid July)
Conservatives: 42% (no change)
Lib Dems: 7% (no change)
Ukip: 3% (no change)
Greens: 3% (up 1)
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/aug/29/executive-pay-tuc-boss-says-mays-plans-to-curb-excessive-executive-pay-are-feeble-politics-live
16:15
It's interesting that so far Vince doesn't seem to be attracting more support for the LibDems than Tim Farron managed, but I suspect that people aren't paying that much attention to politics at the moment,
Which I'm sure you already have.0 -
Juncker is an irrelevance.philiph said:
And the EU are the ones who can't and won't negotiate.Richard_Nabavi said:
On the contrary, they seem to have read Article 50, but the EU27 don't, or at least are pretending not to see the bit about 'taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union'.SouthamObserver said:A Brit, I believe. Leavers like Davis, Boris & Fox had years to understand how things would work. They didn't bother.
Junker will continue to give any papers we submit an F grade, unless they have reflected and accepted the EU position. They aren't negotiating they are confirming the position they hold, a position which is handed to the facilitators (Barnier and Co.) as the agreement that the EU 27 have come to.
0 -
It's interesting to see what we were thinking the last time we were thinking about Europe in any meaningful way.Alanbrooke said:the UK establishment has been sent back to the drawing board and told to have a rethink
the sooner you come to terms with it the more time you will have for love island
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5t3tg6TwQk
0 -
I wish I could have such unwavering beief in a viewpoit that some leavers have. Their desire to leave is beyond question and yet I have still not seen an argument that tells how in the short or medium term it will make "things better". They treat people who try to explain their concerns with disdain and contempt.0
-
the primary reason is german unitywilliamglenn said:
Compare the relative international influence of May vs Merkel and Blair vs Schroeder.Ishmael_Z said:
I would regret the loss of influence, if I thought we had any. In fact the closest we got with the US was that in the Iraq war Bush temporarily granted us Most Favoured Sycophant status, and China has probably scarcely heard of us. Quite simply, we are small beer.Gardenwalker said:
You're just repeating yourself. Trump is a sideshow. The US "establishment" and China are both pro-Remain.
With the UK heading out, we undeniably lose some of our influence with the two superpowers of the 21st century.
Some on this board positively welcome that. I do not.
Now it could be just my warped view of the world but I think it's fair to say that the pendulum has swung towards the German leader. The primary reason for our decline is our political estrangement from the EU since we opted out of the Euro.
it's why we should have sat out 1914 and let them get on with it0 -
That reminds me of William Gibson's gag about nations so backward that they still took the concept of nationhood seriously. From the US or China, we look like 3 or 4% (if that) of EMEA.HYUFD said:
Apart from China the US, Russia and maybe India there are not really that many bigger beers out of 190 global nationsIshmael_Z said:
I would regret the loss of influence, if I thought we had any. In fact the closest we got with the US was that in the Iraq war Bush temporarily granted us Most Favoured Sycophant status, and China has probably scarcely heard of us. Quite simply, we are small beer.Gardenwalker said:
You're just repeating yourself. Trump is a sideshow. The US "establishment" and China are both pro-Remain.
With the UK heading out, we undeniably lose some of our influence with the two superpowers of the 21st century.
Some on this board positively welcome that. I do not.0 -
No.williamglenn said:
Compare the relative international influence of May vs Merkel and Blair vs Schroeder.Ishmael_Z said:
I would regret the loss of influence, if I thought we had any. In fact the closest we got with the US was that in the Iraq war Bush temporarily granted us Most Favoured Sycophant status, and China has probably scarcely heard of us. Quite simply, we are small beer.Gardenwalker said:
You're just repeating yourself. Trump is a sideshow. The US "establishment" and China are both pro-Remain.
With the UK heading out, we undeniably lose some of our influence with the two superpowers of the 21st century.
Some on this board positively welcome that. I do not.
Now it could be just my warped view of the world but I think it's fair to say that the pendulum has swung towards the German leader. The primary reason for our decline is our political estrangement from the EU since we opted out of the Euro.
The primary reason is because of the slow and painful rebuilding of the German economy which has turned it into the world's second-largest exporter of manufactured goods while a certain Chancellor and PM ducked hard decisions and left our economy too far in debt and dependent on house prices and credit cards for prosperity. Neither course was inevitable or solely due to our choices on the Euro.
Indeed, if we had been in the Euro, the whole of Europe would surely have broken to pieces when RBS went under - it as near as toucher did for Ireland.0 -
The position we had was unattractive, half in, half out, the disruptive awkward reluctant member, outside the core and disruptive. Not a sustainable position.Pong said:
I think you're right but broadly similar +-5%Sean_F said:
People have not changed their minds about Brexit. A second vote would produce a similar result.Gardenwalker said:
Yes, and the government committed to pursuing a Leave agenda, even though what "Leave" meant was never defined.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Assume you support remaining in the EU but the answer to your last question is because the UK voted to leaveGardenwalker said:We haven't really commented on the YouGov results yet.
Most people now think Brexit a mistake.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the economy.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for jobs.
Most people now think Brexit will be bad for the NHS.
Most people now think Brexit reduces our global influence.
The pound is down, and foreign investment has declined significantly.
Even Nabavi (usually a reliable guide to "official" Tory thinking) is now blithely talking about the expected hit to auto manufacturing.
The government still looks to be aiming for a hard Brexit but with seemingly no accompanying policy initiatives.
We have crippled our government and are somewhere between a laughing stock and a global irrelevance.
Why are we doing this again?
But that was 12 months ago. It's clearer now - according to polls - that we don't actually like what "Leave" means. To a small but significant majority, any way.
The only argument for Brexit can't be simply that we voted for it. We also voted for the Iraq war. When is it OK for a people to change their mind?
Keir Starmer gets it and has manoeuvred appropriately. it's time to reverse ferret, in the most elegant way possible.
If remain won 52/48, what would that achieve?
"Remain means remain" for the next 30 years? It would be an outcome as profoundly wrong and undemocratic as the outcome being pursued by the nutters currently in government.
Given the of vote, if that is to be followed through there is no option other than leaving the shingle market, customs union and free movement. The EU won't and can't be seen to let us keep trading without some changes.
Remain should have gone for full integration, Euro, the whole monty. It is a far more sustainable solution than our half in half out membership.0 -
The playing conditions are now different. Flood lights were on.ydoethur said:
It can be, but as the umpires have not taken a prior reading in the match they don't have to.Mortimer said:
Doesn't light get offered?Pulpstar said:Lay West Indies 2.22 £10.00 £12.20 (Just for interest)
Bad light stops play I reckon...
The light laws are weird and umpires interpret them over-conservatively.
Edit: Root can keep the quicks on to force the decision too..
Hick and Thorpe won in the dark in pakistan a decade or so back....0 -
Technically they should have taken them off when the floodlights were providing all light.surbiton said:
The playing conditions are now different. Flood lights were on.ydoethur said:
It can be, but as the umpires have not taken a prior reading in the match they don't have to.Mortimer said:
Doesn't light get offered?Pulpstar said:Lay West Indies 2.22 £10.00 £12.20 (Just for interest)
Bad light stops play I reckon...
The light laws are weird and umpires interpret them over-conservatively.
Edit: Root can keep the quicks on to force the decision too..
Hick and Thorpe won in the dark in pakistan a decade or so back....
However, despite some shocking umpiring all the way through this match, they sensibly chose not to.0 -
The problem is that the remainers also treat leavers with disdain and contempt with no attempt by either side to compromise.nichomar said:I wish I could have such unwavering beief in a viewpoit that some leavers have. Their desire to leave is beyond question and yet I have still not seen an argument that tells how in the short or medium term it will make "things better". They treat people who try to explain their concerns with disdain and contempt.
I have no idea how it will work out but the idea we pay a huge exit bill without explanation, have no control over immigration and the ECJ will rule on EU citizens living in the UK over the UK supreme court will not be acceptable to a good majority0 -
Indeed. The arguments for Brexit have collapsed. The only thing left is "well, we voted for it".nichomar said:I wish I could have such unwavering beief in a viewpoit that some leavers have. Their desire to leave is beyond question and yet I have still not seen an argument that tells how in the short or medium term it will make "things better". They treat people who try to explain their concerns with disdain and contempt.
I know Remainers are guilty of a world of guff too, but I search in vain for a confident articulation of Brexit today.0 -
chortleGardenwalker said:
Indeed. The arguments for Brexit have collapsed. The only thing left is "well, we voted for it".nichomar said:I wish I could have such unwavering beief in a viewpoit that some leavers have. Their desire to leave is beyond question and yet I have still not seen an argument that tells how in the short or medium term it will make "things better". They treat people who try to explain their concerns with disdain and contempt.
I know Remainers are guilty of a world of guff too, but I search in vain for a confident articulation of Brexit today.
while youre at it see if you can find a confident articulation for remain
3 political parties couldnt find one last year and still cant0 -
Great stuff from the Windies. If they can build on this win it would be fantastic for cricket.0
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3?Alanbrooke said:
chortleGardenwalker said:
Indeed. The arguments for Brexit have collapsed. The only thing left is "well, we voted for it".nichomar said:I wish I could have such unwavering beief in a viewpoit that some leavers have. Their desire to leave is beyond question and yet I have still not seen an argument that tells how in the short or medium term it will make "things better". They treat people who try to explain their concerns with disdain and contempt.
I know Remainers are guilty of a world of guff too, but I search in vain for a confident articulation of Brexit today.
while youre at it see if you can find a confident articulation for remain
3 political parties couldnt find one last year and still cant
Labour, Conservative, Lib Dems, green, and??0 -
So, no argument then.Alanbrooke said:
chortleGardenwalker said:
Indeed. The arguments for Brexit have collapsed. The only thing left is "well, we voted for it".nichomar said:I wish I could have such unwavering beief in a viewpoit that some leavers have. Their desire to leave is beyond question and yet I have still not seen an argument that tells how in the short or medium term it will make "things better". They treat people who try to explain their concerns with disdain and contempt.
I know Remainers are guilty of a world of guff too, but I search in vain for a confident articulation of Brexit today.
while youre at it see if you can find a confident articulation for remain
3 political parties couldnt find one last year and still cant0 -
Well I froze my nuts off at Headingley to see history made.
Paging Liverpool fans, looks like we've accepted a €160 million bid for Judas Philippe 'Mark Reckless' Coutinho.
What a sporting shit show of a day.0 -
I had the argument in the run up to the voteGardenwalker said:
So, no argument then.Alanbrooke said:
chortleGardenwalker said:
Indeed. The arguments for Brexit have collapsed. The only thing left is "well, we voted for it".nichomar said:I wish I could have such unwavering beief in a viewpoit that some leavers have. Their desire to leave is beyond question and yet I have still not seen an argument that tells how in the short or medium term it will make "things better". They treat people who try to explain their concerns with disdain and contempt.
I know Remainers are guilty of a world of guff too, but I search in vain for a confident articulation of Brexit today.
while youre at it see if you can find a confident articulation for remain
3 political parties couldnt find one last year and still cant
maybe thats when you should have set your stall out
0 -
Only with the political elite by the ignored and disadvantaged.Gardenwalker said:
So, no argument then.Alanbrooke said:
chortleGardenwalker said:
Indeed. The arguments for Brexit have collapsed. The only thing left is "well, we voted for it".nichomar said:I wish I could have such unwavering beief in a viewpoit that some leavers have. Their desire to leave is beyond question and yet I have still not seen an argument that tells how in the short or medium term it will make "things better". They treat people who try to explain their concerns with disdain and contempt.
I know Remainers are guilty of a world of guff too, but I search in vain for a confident articulation of Brexit today.
while youre at it see if you can find a confident articulation for remain
3 political parties couldnt find one last year and still cant0 -
And to think I get accused of catastrophising by Brexiteers... (That scenario would have have been of the same order of magnitude as that crisis faced by the US in the same era and whatever it took would have been done.)ydoethur said:
No.williamglenn said:
Compare the relative international influence of May vs Merkel and Blair vs Schroeder.Ishmael_Z said:
I would regret the loss of influence, if I thought we had any. In fact the closest we got with the US was that in the Iraq war Bush temporarily granted us Most Favoured Sycophant status, and China has probably scarcely heard of us. Quite simply, we are small beer.Gardenwalker said:
You're just repeating yourself. Trump is a sideshow. The US "establishment" and China are both pro-Remain.
With the UK heading out, we undeniably lose some of our influence with the two superpowers of the 21st century.
Some on this board positively welcome that. I do not.
Now it could be just my warped view of the world but I think it's fair to say that the pendulum has swung towards the German leader. The primary reason for our decline is our political estrangement from the EU since we opted out of the Euro.
The primary reason is because of the slow and painful rebuilding of the German economy which has turned it into the world's second-largest exporter of manufactured goods while a certain Chancellor and PM ducked hard decisions and left our economy too far in debt and dependent on house prices and credit cards for prosperity. Neither course was inevitable or solely due to our choices on the Euro.
Indeed, if we had been in the Euro, the whole of Europe would surely have broken to pieces when RBS went under - it as near as toucher did for Ireland.
Imagine however an alternative history in which Brown had continued the rebalancing that had happened under Major and Clarke and not got out the national credit card, mortgage lending had been more tightly regulated, and on top of that we had joined the Euro.
Not only would we have been better prepared for the financial crisis but we would have permanently cemented the City's position as the financial capital of the Eurozone, we would have been more insulated from migration pressure due to wage differentials as our currency wouldn't have become overvalued as it was for too long. We would have been at the table when all the key decisions regarding the Eurozone had been taken. The dysfunctional semi-detached relationship with the EU that we ended with would have been avoided. The current crisis wouldn't have happened and we'd have been altogether more at ease with our successful and privileged position in Europe and the world.0 -
4-0 over arsenalTheScreamingEagles said:Well I froze my nuts off at Headingley to see history made.
Paging Liverpool fans, looks like we've accepted a €160 million bid for Judas Philippe 'Mark Reckless' Coutinho.
What a sporting shit show of a day.
Im still laughing0 -
Better out than a resentful squad member. I think that is the right decision in the end.TheScreamingEagles said:Well I froze my nuts off at Headingley to see history made.
Paging Liverpool fans, looks like we've accepted a €160 million bid for Judas Philippe 'Mark Reckless' Coutinho.
What a sporting shit show of a day.
All your incomers have just got more expensive!0 -
That's A50 for you...Sandpit said:England, you bunch of mucking fuppets declaring early again, don’t you ever learn?
0 -
Even that wouldn't be so bad, if their position were vaguely coherent. Lord only knows how they think the Irish border question can be resolved, if they refuse to discuss what border controls they would require.philiph said:And the EU are the ones who can't and won't negotiate.
Junker will continue to give any papers we submit an F grade, unless they have reflected and accepted the EU position. They aren't negotiating they are confirming the position they hold, a position which is handed to the facilitators (Barnier and Co.) as the agreement that the EU 27 have come to.0 -
can we send some navy ships to houston? can we send some cruise ships?0
