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Well no one's ever been prosecuted for it in the UK.The_Apocalypse said:
Don't get me wrong I don't think doctors are infallible, although I must admit I find it difficult to understand/find common ground with the perspectives of prolife Conservatives on the Charlie Gard case and more generally.tlg86 said:@The_Apocalypse - whilst I'm not impressed with some of the stuff that's gone in the Charlie Gard case, and I think the parents are misguided, I think the Left need to be a bit careful here.
It's worth remembering that there are cases where doctors get it wrong (the Ashya King case is an example of this). If I was GOSH I'd have told them, "okay, you sort out the necessary arrangements, and get on with it." But I guess that's why I'm not a doctor!
Furthermore, we only have to look at issues like FGM to realise that the state is happy to let things happen when intervening is seen as being too difficult.
Re FGM - all that I've read suggests that the government is keen to intervene to stop FGM from happening. But I'll search Google now on the matter to get more info on what you're saying is the case.
I think the question you have to ask is "how far do you take the line 'children do not belong to parents'?" Not letting Jehovah Witnesses stop their kids from having blood transfusions is one thing. Not letting them raise them as Jehovah Witnesses in the first place is quite another.0 -
I do. I think in the minds of many Leavers that is exactly what Brexit is all about.Sean_F said:
I don't really think so.SouthamObserver said:
A coterie of well spoken, articulate, rather stupid former public schoolboys has a fantasy that we can reignite Empire 2.0 once we break free from the tyranny of Brussels that has held us under its oppressive yoke for 40 years. We will bring the Irish back into the fold and across the world former colonies will look again to the Mother Country to lead as they form orderly queues to do trade deals the likes of which have never been seen before. It's post-modern imperialism, is based upon delusion and is set to cause long-lasting damage to this country's interests. But boys will be boys and must play their games.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, imperialist?
A country asserting its independence from a larger supra-national body is the antithesis of imperialism. We aren't seeking to impose our will on others but to end others imposing their will on us.0 -
@faisalislam: Treasury winning argument in Cabinet on a 2-3 year "off the shelf" transition till 2022... or at least asking for that in negotiations...
@faisalislam: How has this changed so quickly?
GDP this morning confirming France, Spain, Austria, Sweden growing 2-4 times faster that UK so far in 2017
@Rubble2012: @faisalislam "Shackled to a corpse..." one by one every Brexiteer argument is blown out of the water.0 -
Only because people are being subjected to a 24/7 diet of "Project Put The Fear Of God Into Everyone" with no rebuttal from the other side + The government has become totally paralyzed since Theresa blew the general election.Stark_Dawning said:Boris's decline is surely an allegory of Brexit itself. The fun and frolics have all gone out of it, and everyone is now looking on with deadly seriousness if not trepidation.
Case in point is whether Hammond is speaking for the government or for himself this morning, Re. transition and also the complete and total balls-up over electric cars the other day.0 -
@DanielJHannan: It would surely be logistically easier to treat the British Isles as what it has always been - a single customs area. Checks only at ports.CarlottaVance said:Hannan's Irish? Who knew?
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IMO we don't have any dog in the fight between Poland's two main political factions.tlg86 said:
I don't know much about the situation in Poland, but I don't consider it our responsibility to foster democracy around the world.rottenborough said:
The broader moves against Poland are precisely why I am in favour of the EU - it is attempting to stop a democracy sliding into authoritarian control.tlg86 said:
That Farage poster was bang on the money.Casino_Royale said:
The EU yesterday moving to take sanctions against Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic for refusing to help mitigate German migration policy shows just what direction it's going in. As do their broader moves against Poland.Essexit said:Mike and Jonathan nicely demonstrating the two contradictory sides of the Remoaner line on Brexit and the economy today.
Absolutely delighted we're leaving.0 -
Has anyone compared the impact of Brexit to the Black Death, or the fall of Rome?Casino_Royale said:
Nazis, Ku Klux Klan, the Confederacy, Cancer, 1914 and the outbreak WW1, appeasement, and echoes of the holocaust.Tykejohnno said:We are in phase 10 of the remain in the EU panic side which is corn laws,tories gone from government for a generation,immigration controls may take a little longer and the country/economy is fcuked.
I'm not sure where you go from there.. Genghis Khan? The siege of Carthage? The Borg?
When your opponents have to resort to such hyberbole, it tells you an awful lot.0 -
Yes that's a good point. There are some true believer Republican senators who wouldn't fall for the deception I suggested.619 said:
Not sure about that: trying to do that was bad enough for the moderates, and the crazies are pissed off.rkrkrk said:
Yes - I suspect McCain has saved Trump/Republicans from electoral disaster.FF43 said:Republican senators can thank their lucky star in the form of John McCain, while publicly piling opprobrium on him, for killing off an Obamacare repeal that everyone knows to be a disaster.
What I'm not clear on is why Trump doesn't push for a repeal bill which does very little (maybe withdraws health insurance from transgender people for instance), gets it passed and then declares victory.
On your second point, a bill like that won't pass because there are a couple of GOP senators who wouldn't vote for it. And Trump will declare victory anyway like a crazy person.
I do think had the repeal bill passed and however many tens of millions lost healthcare - there would have been massive consequences for the Republicans.0 -
The decline of both the Indian cotton and shipbuilding industries in the 18th and 19th Century, are one example.Alice_Aforethought said:
I've never heard that. Can you give any examples?foxinsoxuk said:Free Trade was just another expression of British Imperialism, as with our Navy we could strangle others trade routes. Even then we set the rules so that within the Empire, native industries were pushed aside by British ones.
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It's the views of the Taoiseach on the front page of the Times.....not an MEP's....Scott_P said:
@DanielJHannan: It would surely be logistically easier to treat the British Isles as what it has always been - a single customs area. Checks only at ports.CarlottaVance said:Hannan's Irish? Who knew?
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You've got to laugh at Faisal Islam. The man who thought we'd be in recession within weeks and at the back of the queue with America is still relentlessly pretending his predictions are about to come true. Like Ian Dunt you tend to lose all journalistic credibility when you keep getting things wrong.Scott_P said:@faisalislam: Treasury winning argument in Cabinet on a 2-3 year "off the shelf" transition till 2022... or at least asking for that in negotiations...
@faisalislam: How has this changed so quickly?
GDP this morning confirming France, Spain, Austria, Sweden growing 2-4 times faster that UK so far in 2017
@Rubble2012: @faisalislam "Shackled to a corpse..." one by one every Brexiteer argument is blown out of the water.0 -
Has someone set Steve Bannon up?
Having to deny that story is almost on a par with that tale of LBJ wanting a rival to deny that he was a goat lover.0 -
The views of an MEP in his tweet, are not the views of an MEP?CarlottaVance said:It's the views of the Taoiseach on the front page of the Times.....not an MEP's....
It's a view...0 -
These people are like the odd balls who wander down Oxford Street with "The End Is Nigh" sandwich boards...Brom said:
You've got to laugh at Faisal Islam. The man who thought we'd be in recession within weeks and at the back of the queue with America is still relentlessly pretending his predictions are about to come true. Like Ian Dunt you tend to lose all journalistic credibility when you keep getting things wrong.Scott_P said:@faisalislam: Treasury winning argument in Cabinet on a 2-3 year "off the shelf" transition till 2022... or at least asking for that in negotiations...
@faisalislam: How has this changed so quickly?
GDP this morning confirming France, Spain, Austria, Sweden growing 2-4 times faster that UK so far in 2017
@Rubble2012: @faisalislam "Shackled to a corpse..." one by one every Brexiteer argument is blown out of the water.0 -
Paradoxically, it's good news for the Republicans, given their growing dependence on blue collar voters.rkrkrk said:
Yes that's a good point. There are some true believer Republican senators who wouldn't fall for the deception I suggested.619 said:
Not sure about that: trying to do that was bad enough for the moderates, and the crazies are pissed off.rkrkrk said:
Yes - I suspect McCain has saved Trump/Republicans from electoral disaster.FF43 said:Republican senators can thank their lucky star in the form of John McCain, while publicly piling opprobrium on him, for killing off an Obamacare repeal that everyone knows to be a disaster.
What I'm not clear on is why Trump doesn't push for a repeal bill which does very little (maybe withdraws health insurance from transgender people for instance), gets it passed and then declares victory.
On your second point, a bill like that won't pass because there are a couple of GOP senators who wouldn't vote for it. And Trump will declare victory anyway like a crazy person.
I do think had the repeal bill passed and however many tens of millions lost healthcare - there would have been massive consequences for the Republicans.0 -
I believe that there has been an unsuccessful prosecution.tlg86 said:
Well no one's ever been prosecuted for it in the UK.The_Apocalypse said:
Don't get me wrong I don't think doctors are infallible, although I must admit I find it difficult to understand/find common ground with the perspectives of prolife Conservatives on the Charlie Gard case and more generally.tlg86 said:@The_Apocalypse - whilst I'm not impressed with some of the stuff that's gone in the Charlie Gard case, and I think the parents are misguided, I think the Left need to be a bit careful here.
It's worth remembering that there are cases where doctors get it wrong (the Ashya King case is an example of this). If I was GOSH I'd have told them, "okay, you sort out the necessary arrangements, and get on with it." But I guess that's why I'm not a doctor!
Furthermore, we only have to look at issues like FGM to realise that the state is happy to let things happen when intervening is seen as being too difficult.
Re FGM - all that I've read suggests that the government is keen to intervene to stop FGM from happening. But I'll search Google now on the matter to get more info on what you're saying is the case.
I think the question you have to ask is "how far do you take the line 'children do not belong to parents'?" Not letting Jehovah Witnesses stop their kids from having blood transfusions is one thing. Not letting them raise them as Jehovah Witnesses in the first place is quite another.
FGM is a good example of why parents decisions on their childrens behalf should not be absolute.0 -
Did he deny it?dr_spyn said:Has someone set Steve Bannon up?
Having to deny that story is almost on a par with that tale of LBJ wanting a rival to deny that he was a goat lover.
https://twitter.com/christinawilkie/status/8907092832890839100 -
TM's updated JAM policy;
"Fuck 'em"
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/27/snatching-money-care-workers-tories0 -
I think they are trying to find a narrative for Brexit. Why are we doing it? Where is it taking us? Why is it worth the pain? How does it bring the country together to a common goal? They are looking for their William Tells apple, their Gallipoli, their Boston tea chests. Michael Gove looked closest to articulating something, but I'm not quite sure what.SouthamObserver said:
A coterie of well spoken, articulate, rather stupid former public schoolboys has a fantasy that we can reignite Empire 2.0 once we break free from the tyranny of Brussels that has held us under its oppressive yoke for 40 years. We will bring the Irish back into the fold and across the world former colonies will look again to the Mother Country to lead as they form orderly queues to do trade deals the likes of which have never been seen before. It's post-modern imperialism, is based upon delusion and is set to cause long-lasting damage to this country's interests. But boys will be boys and must play their games.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, imperialist?
A country asserting its independence from a larger supra-national body is the antithesis of imperialism. We aren't seeking to impose our will on others but to end others imposing their will on us.
For its part the EU narrative is looking pretty tattered, which is probably why Remain lost ultimately.0 -
In any negotiation, whose views do you think will carry more weight?Scott_P said:
The views of an MEP in his tweet, are not the views of an MEP?CarlottaVance said:It's the views of the Taoiseach on the front page of the Times.....not an MEP's....
It's a view...
Whose views are on the front page of the Times?
Desperate, much?0 -
Most of us weren't even alive when the British Empire existed. It's not coming back.Beverley_C said:
I do. I think in the minds of many Leavers that is exactly what Brexit is all about.Sean_F said:
I don't really think so.SouthamObserver said:
A coterie of well spoken, articulate, rather stupid former public schoolboys has a fantasy that we can reignite Empire 2.0 once we break free from the tyranny of Brussels that has held us under its oppressive yoke for 40 years. We will bring the Irish back into the fold and across the world former colonies will look again to the Mother Country to lead as they form orderly queues to do trade deals the likes of which have never been seen before. It's post-modern imperialism, is based upon delusion and is set to cause long-lasting damage to this country's interests. But boys will be boys and must play their games.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, imperialist?
A country asserting its independence from a larger supra-national body is the antithesis of imperialism. We aren't seeking to impose our will on others but to end others imposing their will on us.0 -
Completely. If you are able to maintain balance from the beginning then your audience will be captive further down the line if you offer an honest appraisal of the situation. Islam shot himself in the foot with relentless doom-mongering to the point that now the remain voters I know take his 'angle' with a hefty pinch of salt and the leave voters just laugh. A valid lesson for any impartial journalist!GIN1138 said:
These people are like the odd balls who wander down Oxford Street with "The End Is Nigh" sandwich boards...Brom said:
You've got to laugh at Faisal Islam. The man who thought we'd be in recession within weeks and at the back of the queue with America is still relentlessly pretending his predictions are about to come true. Like Ian Dunt you tend to lose all journalistic credibility when you keep getting things wrong.Scott_P said:@faisalislam: Treasury winning argument in Cabinet on a 2-3 year "off the shelf" transition till 2022... or at least asking for that in negotiations...
@faisalislam: How has this changed so quickly?
GDP this morning confirming France, Spain, Austria, Sweden growing 2-4 times faster that UK so far in 2017
@Rubble2012: @faisalislam "Shackled to a corpse..." one by one every Brexiteer argument is blown out of the water.0 -
Mr. Eagles, if you're about, I never knew that Johnny Mercer wrote one of the songs in the animated Robin Hood (2.38): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxnvxtYfsd40
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So we now leave in 2022. By then the majority will be remainders as the Brexit majority will have gone to meet a reluctant maker.0
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We weren't discussing negotiation.CarlottaVance said:In any negotiation, whose views do you think will carry more weight?
We were discussing whether a Brexiteer wants to dictate borders to the Republic of Ireland.
And it appears he does.0 -
I never understand this primary school logic. Presumably then if we had a vote post Maastricht it would have been 70/30 out. Indeed by the same measure the last Tory voter would have died out around 1952.Fenman said:So we now leave in 2022. By then the majority will be remainders as the Brexit majority will have gone to meet a reluctant maker.
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Mr. Brom, aye. The reports of a 'spike' in inflation when it rose by 0.1% was just... weird.
Dr. Foxinsox, it's illegal. If the police know it's happening, they should be prosecuting. Otherwise what's the point of the law?0 -
The pro-Europeans are on the front foot across all levels of civil society for the first time in decades, meanwhile the Brexiteers are caught in a trap built by their own hand and it will only get worse. It really is a stunning turn of events.0
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Chancellor Philip Hammond has said any "transitional deal" in the immediate period after Brexit must end by the time of the next general election.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-407477470 -
Sorry, I should have said convicted. Perhaps it doesn't happen here, but I think parents should be held responsible for it wherever it's done.foxinsoxuk said:
I believe that there has been an unsuccessful prosecution.tlg86 said:
Well no one's ever been prosecuted for it in the UK.The_Apocalypse said:
Don't get me wrong I don't think doctors are infallible, although I must admit I find it difficult to understand/find common ground with the perspectives of prolife Conservatives on the Charlie Gard case and more generally.tlg86 said:@The_Apocalypse - whilst I'm not impressed with some of the stuff that's gone in the Charlie Gard case, and I think the parents are misguided, I think the Left need to be a bit careful here.
It's worth remembering that there are cases where doctors get it wrong (the Ashya King case is an example of this). If I was GOSH I'd have told them, "okay, you sort out the necessary arrangements, and get on with it." But I guess that's why I'm not a doctor!
Furthermore, we only have to look at issues like FGM to realise that the state is happy to let things happen when intervening is seen as being too difficult.
Re FGM - all that I've read suggests that the government is keen to intervene to stop FGM from happening. But I'll search Google now on the matter to get more info on what you're saying is the case.
I think the question you have to ask is "how far do you take the line 'children do not belong to parents'?" Not letting Jehovah Witnesses stop their kids from having blood transfusions is one thing. Not letting them raise them as Jehovah Witnesses in the first place is quite another.
FGM is a good example of why parents decisions on their childrens behalf should not be absolute.0 -
But, but, but they're the winners! So much winning, they are getting tired of winning.williamglenn said:the Brexiteers are caught in a trap built by their own hand and it will only get worse.
I am sure I heard that somewhere else recently...0 -
@jameschappers: It seems @hmtreasury is slowly reasserting itself over Brexit. Which is to the good. Suspect this is only the start0
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Again?williamglenn said:It really is a stunning turn of events.
Your head must be spinning from all these 'stunning turn of events'
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A large part of the Leave vote was the 65+ voters born on or before 1951. I was born in the 60s and people still banged on about the days of Empire even then. Young minds are impressionable.Sean_F said:
Most of us weren't even alive when the British Empire existed. It's not coming back.Beverley_C said:
I do. I think in the minds of many Leavers that is exactly what Brexit is all about.Sean_F said:
I don't really think so.SouthamObserver said:
A coterie of well spoken, articulate, rather stupid former public schoolboys has a fantasy that we can reignite Empire 2.0 once we break free from the tyranny of Brussels that has held us under its oppressive yoke for 40 years. We will bring the Irish back into the fold and across the world former colonies will look again to the Mother Country to lead as they form orderly queues to do trade deals the likes of which have never been seen before. It's post-modern imperialism, is based upon delusion and is set to cause long-lasting damage to this country's interests. But boys will be boys and must play their games.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, imperialist?
A country asserting its independence from a larger supra-national body is the antithesis of imperialism. We aren't seeking to impose our will on others but to end others imposing their will on us.
I have seen nothing to change my mind that Brexit is a vision built on lies, delusion and fantasy. I am, however, content to wait and see how it all turns out.0 -
No - do pay attention.Scott_P said:
We weren't discussing negotiation.CarlottaVance said:In any negotiation, whose views do you think will carry more weight?
We were discussing whether a Brexiteer wants to dictate borders to the Republic of Ireland.
We were discussing the DUP response to the report in the Times that the Irish wanted to move the border to the Irish sea.
And you seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that the views of a single MEP are representative of 'the British', but somehow the views of the Taoiseach are somehow not representative of 'the Irish'....0 -
In fairness William Glenn is one of the few voices angrily moaning all the time. Yes we won, but that doesn't mean we should gloat. I feel particularly since the election the government and civil servants have more of a grip on Brexit than perhaps they did in the earlier part of the year. I'm still over the moon about last June's vote but I don't pretend there won't be some difficult times ahead for our economy, much like their would have been inside the EU.Scott_P said:
But, but, but they're the winners! So much winning, they are getting tired of winning.williamglenn said:the Brexiteers are caught in a trap built by their own hand and it will only get worse.
I am sure I heard that somewhere else recently...0 -
Mr. Glenn, what are you talking about?
Print media was mostly for leaving. Broadcast media was pretty neutral during the campaign (Lord High Chancellor Islam aside) but pro-EU afterwards. Every major party was for remaining.
Pro-EU types have been in power consistently for decades, and are dominant in the media (broadcast).
The only time their cause has been set back was when they asked the electorate.0 -
And yet, despite this " triumph" public opinion is unchanged. Even after 525,000 older voters have died off, and many more young voters have become eligible to vote.williamglenn said:The pro-Europeans are on the front foot across all levels of civil society for the first time in decades, meanwhile the Brexiteers are caught in a trap built by their own hand and it will only get worse. It really is a stunning turn of events.
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There is an argument however that the process that makes older people more likely to be Conservative is now broken and that a generational shift to the Left is underway (e.g. starting a family, home ownership, living in quiet suburbs etc etc). Younger people feel they have not been given the same deal as their parents and it appears may be prepared to now turn out and vote in protest.Brom said:
I never understand this primary school logic. Presumably then if we had a vote post Maastricht it would have been 70/30 out. Indeed by the same measure the last Tory voter would have died out around 1952.Fenman said:So we now leave in 2022. By then the majority will be remainders as the Brexit majority will have gone to meet a reluctant maker.
We will only know in an election or two's time whether there really is a generational shift.
If there is then, ironically, a major factor in this will have been Brexit which the young don't support and many of them are bloody angry about it. Of course, Jezza being a hard brexiteer in reality is another story...0 -
Good news! Amber Rudd has said there will be “no cliff edge” when Britain leaves the EU in an article for the FT. Bad news! Brandon Lewis, the minister of state for immigration, has told the Today programme that freedom of movement will end on 31 March 2019 when the Article 50 process reaches its end, which effectively rules out any transition deal.
Government policy is a bit like a bus in London: there's no point getting too het up about this one, as another will be along in a minute or so. In this instance, the division may say more about the difficulties of live radio than anything else – the consensus in the government is that there will be a transition period, with the disagreement over length.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/07/why-rows-over-possible-brexit-transition-deal-are-far-over0 -
They should come here and join the Therapeutic stream of consciousness club for referendum losersGIN1138 said:
These people are like the odd balls who wander down Oxford Street with "The End Is Nigh" sandwich boards...Brom said:
You've got to laugh at Faisal Islam. The man who thought we'd be in recession within weeks and at the back of the queue with America is still relentlessly pretending his predictions are about to come true. Like Ian Dunt you tend to lose all journalistic credibility when you keep getting things wrong.Scott_P said:@faisalislam: Treasury winning argument in Cabinet on a 2-3 year "off the shelf" transition till 2022... or at least asking for that in negotiations...
@faisalislam: How has this changed so quickly?
GDP this morning confirming France, Spain, Austria, Sweden growing 2-4 times faster that UK so far in 2017
@Rubble2012: @faisalislam "Shackled to a corpse..." one by one every Brexiteer argument is blown out of the water.
"...and they're all stupid provincial cod churchillian Atlanticist imperialists, and we won't leave anyway, and I read a tweet from someone who wanted to stay saying they thought we should stay, and I wrote an article saying...."
"I'm afraid our time is up"
"Yes that too!"0 -
Which goes to show how people view things differently. I view inflicting religion on a child as a form of psychological damage. Your example of Jehovah's Witnesses and blood transfusion are as good an example as any since it trains someone to allow needless self-harm through denying life-saving medical treatment.tlg86 said:
Well no one's ever been prosecuted for it in the UK.The_Apocalypse said:
Don't get me wrong I don't think doctors are infallible, although I must admit I find it difficult to understand/find common ground with the perspectives of prolife Conservatives on the Charlie Gard case and more generally.tlg86 said:@The_Apocalypse - whilst I'm not impressed with some of the stuff that's gone in the Charlie Gard case, and I think the parents are misguided, I think the Left need to be a bit careful here.
It's worth remembering that there are cases where doctors get it wrong (the Ashya King case is an example of this). If I was GOSH I'd have told them, "okay, you sort out the necessary arrangements, and get on with it." But I guess that's why I'm not a doctor!
Furthermore, we only have to look at issues like FGM to realise that the state is happy to let things happen when intervening is seen as being too difficult.
Re FGM - all that I've read suggests that the government is keen to intervene to stop FGM from happening. But I'll search Google now on the matter to get more info on what you're saying is the case.
I think the question you have to ask is "how far do you take the line 'children do not belong to parents'?" Not letting Jehovah Witnesses stop their kids from having blood transfusions is one thing. Not letting them raise them as Jehovah Witnesses in the first place is quite another.
However, I am aware that many do not share my view.0 -
If the "transition" arrangement goes ahead as described, I would be extremely surprised if it came to an end before 2021. It's simply pushing the cliff edge out by two years.CarlottaVance said:Chancellor Philip Hammond has said any "transitional deal" in the immediate period after Brexit must end by the time of the next general election.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40747747
Continuing exactly as before but with none of the input you previously had is a particularly nonsensical arrangement, so something will have to change at some point.0 -
Begun Marc Morris' biography of King John.
A book full of France beating England. A most masochistic read, I fear. Afterwards I may read Edward III's biography, or William Marshal's, to improve my mood.0 -
LOLCarlottaVance said:No - do pay attention.
I started the conversation, by posting Hannan's tweet.
One of us knows what it was about. Clue, it's not you...0 -
Amber Rudd seems a bit of a mug to side with Philip Hammond, if there is any possibility of a leadership election.0
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@JasonGroves1: Former Irish Taoiseach Bertie Ahern says there is no possibility of Ireland leaving the EU: 'We're mad, but we're not that mad'0
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Funny comment for very serious issue.Pong said:TM's updated JAM policy;
"Fuck 'em"
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/27/snatching-money-care-workers-tories0 -
Sir Jeffrey Donaldson, a senior Democratic Unionist MP
“Pragmatically that is just not going to happen. If you look at Northern Ireland, for example, out of the port of Belfast 73% of the goods that come in and out of the port of Belfast which is by far our busiest port go to Great Britain.
“Why on earth would we want to create a customs arrangement between this part of the United Kingdom and the rest of the United Kingdom.
“That just isn’t going to be the outcome and I think the Taoiseach needs to get a reality check on this.”
When asked if he could rule out his party’s support for such a proposal, he said: “Yes, I certainly can. There is no way that the DUP would go for an option that creates a border between one part of the United Kingdom and the other.
“Dublin really needs to understand that that proposition is absurd. It is unconstitutional.
He added: “Why would we want to create a customs situation with the very market that is our biggest market? It’s just madness.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/28/dublin-pushes-irish-sea-new-border-uk-brexit/0 -
Having spent the last week in Lossiemouth with our family's fisher folk the Brexit debate seems almost a non event. The Moray Open is being played with record entrants over the fabulous championship golf course, the typhones take of every day patrolling our northern borders from Russia, HMS Queen Elizabeth moves slowly up and down the Moray firth dwarfing all shipping, the seagulls cry loudly over the town and many a story is told of fisher days of both happiness and at times great strife.
Occassionally logging into this forum it is clear it is polarised by two waring factions each blaming each other over the impending disaster. Some even try to pin it on the extreme right when 52% voted to leave.
I voted remain but accept the verdict and support leave and am a conservative party member. Frankly the only grown up in the room seems to be Phil Hammond and some form of softer Brexit is likely.
The idea we will in some way decide to cancel Brexit and stay in as if the referendum never happened is in my opinion impossible and indeed I have seen no evidence in a shift towards staying in in the polls.
A compromise will indeed happen in due course and in the meantime a pair of typhones have just returned to base together and the morning coffee tastes good
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There is this possibility but I do not see it myself. The house price bubble and unscupulous landlord rental culture is as much the fault of Labour as it is the Conservatives. The main reasons people shift rightwards with age are in my opinion due to personal events that occur outside the political sphere. Having children will usually make people think more about their finances, safety of their family (crime and justice) and job opportunities, issues that left wing policies tend to fall down on.rottenborough said:
There is an argument however that the process that makes older people more likely to be Conservative is now broken and that a generational shift to the Left is underway (e.g. starting a family, home ownership, living in quiet suburbs etc etc). Younger people feel they have not been given the same deal as their parents and it appears may be prepared to now turn out and vote in protest.Brom said:
I never understand this primary school logic. Presumably then if we had a vote post Maastricht it would have been 70/30 out. Indeed by the same measure the last Tory voter would have died out around 1952.Fenman said:So we now leave in 2022. By then the majority will be remainders as the Brexit majority will have gone to meet a reluctant maker.
We will only know in an election or two's time whether there really is a generational shift.
If there is then, ironically, a major factor in this will have been Brexit which the young don't support and many of them are bloody angry about it. Of course, Jezza being a hard brexiteer in reality is another story...0 -
williamglenn
"The pro-Europeans are on the front foot across all levels of civil society for the first time in decades."
So by implication Eurosceptics have been running things all those decades. Really?
0 -
John makes Edward II and Richard II look good by comparison.Morris_Dancer said:Begun Marc Morris' biography of King John.
A book full of France beating England. A most masochistic read, I fear. Afterwards I may read Edward III's biography, or William Marshal's, to improve my mood.
He was very nasty, a coward, and grossly incompetent. By the time of his death, he'd lost most of England to Prince Louis (not to mention Normandy, Maine, Anjou, Poitou).0 -
Monksfield said:
Interesting headline in Times. Surely we are another step down the slow road to a United Ireland. Maydup or not.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40748107
Check the time stamps.....lol.....Scott_P said:
LOLCarlottaVance said:No - do pay attention.
I started the conversation, by posting Hannan's tweet.
One of us knows what it was about. Clue, it's not you...0 -
And?CarlottaVance said:Check the time stamps.....lol.....
My conversation about Hannan started after your conversation about something else.
You do understand how that works, right?0 -
By implication their influence petrified politicians of all stripes. That influence is now on borrowed time.trawl said:So by implication Eurosceptics have been running things all those decades. Really?
It can only be a matter of time before Rupert Murdoch sees the writing on the wall and the Sun starts tipping buckets of Brexshit all over the government.0 -
Scott_P said:
@JasonGroves1: Former Irish Taoiseach Bertie Ahern says there is no possibility of Ireland leaving the EU: 'We're mad, but we're not that mad'
0 -
Adult JW are allowed to refuse blood products (though often for planned surgery there are alternatives, albeit not quite ideal). JW children needing blood in lifethreatening situations can be made temporary wards of court. As there is no ongoing risk, this is usually brief, before returning to parental control.Beverley_C said:
Which goes to show how people view things differently. I view inflicting religion on a child as a form of psychological damage. Your example of Jehovah's Witnesses and blood transfusion are as good an example as any since it trains someone to allow needless self-harm through denying life-saving medical treatment.tlg86 said:
Well no one's ever been prosecuted for it in the UK.The_Apocalypse said:
Don't get me wrong I don't think doctors are infallible, although I must admit I find it difficult to understand/find common ground with the perspectives of prolife Conservatives on the Charlie Gard case and more generally.tlg86 said:@The_Apocalypse - whilst I'm not impressed with some of the stuff that's gone in the Charlie Gard case, and I think the parents are misguided, I think the Left need to be a bit careful here.
It's worth remembering that there are cases where doctors get it wrong (the Ashya King case is an example of this). If I was GOSH I'd have told them, "okay, you sort out the necessary arrangements, and get on with it." But I guess that's why I'm not a doctor!
Furthermore, we only have to look at issues like FGM to realise that the state is happy to let things happen when intervening is seen as being too difficult.
Re FGM - all that I've read suggests that the government is keen to intervene to stop FGM from happening. But I'll search Google now on the matter to get more info on what you're saying is the case.
I think the question you have to ask is "how far do you take the line 'children do not belong to parents'?" Not letting Jehovah Witnesses stop their kids from having blood transfusions is one thing. Not letting them raise them as Jehovah Witnesses in the first place is quite another.
However, I am aware that many do not share my view.
There was a significant Somali protest outside City Hall in Leicester about child protection issues last week. I think intervention on FGM is one of the issues.
FGM is child abuse, and there is a mandatory reporting system for professionals, but prosecution is not nessicarily the best way of tackling child abuse. Often that is a careful matter ofbalancing conflicting risks to the child. Taking children into care is not a simple way of solving it.0 -
So you think Hannan's views are more important than the Taoiseach's reported on the front page of the Times, and followed up on R4 with senior DUP politicians?Scott_P said:
And?CarlottaVance said:Check the time stamps.....lol.....
My conversation about Hannan started after your conversation about something else.
You do understand how that works, right?
You don't think there might be more to political discourse than Twitter?0 -
isam said:
They should come here and join the Therapeutic stream of consciousness club for referendum losersGIN1138 said:
These people are like the odd balls who wander down Oxford Street with "The End Is Nigh" sandwich boards...Brom said:
You've got to laugh at Faisal Islam. The man who thought we'd be in recession within weeks and at the back of the queue with America is still relentlessly pretending his predictions are about to come true. Like Ian Dunt you tend to lose all journalistic credibility when you keep getting things wrong.Scott_P said:@faisalislam: Treasury winning argument in Cabinet on a 2-3 year "off the shelf" transition till 2022... or at least asking for that in negotiations...
@faisalislam: How has this changed so quickly?
GDP this morning confirming France, Spain, Austria, Sweden growing 2-4 times faster that UK so far in 2017
@Rubble2012: @faisalislam "Shackled to a corpse..." one by one every Brexiteer argument is blown out of the water.
"...and they're all stupid provincial cod churchillian Atlanticist imperialists, and we won't leave anyway, and I read a tweet from someone who wanted to stay saying they thought we should stay, and I wrote an article saying...."
"I'm afraid our time is up"
"Yes that too!" 0 -
A customs border in the Irish Sea is a practical and workable solution to a problem created by the UK's decision. Telling Ireland to leave the EU as an alternative solution would be an imperialistic power play were it not so laughable.CarlottaVance said:
So you think Hannan's views are more important than the Taoiseach's reported on the front page of the Times, and followed up on R4 with senior DUP politicians?Scott_P said:
And?CarlottaVance said:Check the time stamps.....lol.....
My conversation about Hannan started after your conversation about something else.
You do understand how that works, right?
You don't think there might be more to political discourse than Twitter?0 -
I think they are different conversations.CarlottaVance said:So you think Hannan's views are more important than the Taoiseach's
0 -
That's fine then.CarlottaVance said:Chancellor Philip Hammond has said any "transitional deal" in the immediate period after Brexit must end by the time of the next general election.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40747747
As long as they are genuine about an end date for transitional arrangements and that's sometime before the 2022 general election, I'm perfectly content, as I think most people will be.0 -
Mr. F, not au fait with Richard II, but I know some of John's reign from the very good biography of William Marshal, by Thomas Asbridge. Damned shame Richard the Lionheart got shot.0
-
Mr. Glenn, so, it's not imperialist for the EU to slice the UK in two with an intra-national customs border, but it is imperialist if the Republic of Ireland were to choose to have a customs union with the only country with whom it shares a land border?
I am not persuaded by this.0 -
Would JRM accept a transition deal as described by spreadsheet phil?GIN1138 said:
That's fine then.CarlottaVance said:Chancellor Philip Hammond has said any "transitional deal" in the immediate period after Brexit must end by the time of the next general election.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40747747
As long as they are genuine about an end date for transitional arrangements and that's sometime before the 2022 general election, I'm perfectly content, as I think most people will be.
I think not.0 -
There are really 4 answers to the Irish border:williamglenn said:
A customs border in the Irish Sea is a practical and workable solution to a problem created by the UK's decision. Telling Ireland to leave the EU as an alternative solution would be an imperialistic power play were it not so laughable.CarlottaVance said:
So you think Hannan's views are more important than the Taoiseach's reported on the front page of the Times, and followed up on R4 with senior DUP politicians?Scott_P said:
And?CarlottaVance said:Check the time stamps.....lol.....
My conversation about Hannan started after your conversation about something else.
You do understand how that works, right?
You don't think there might be more to political discourse than Twitter?
1) a hard border
2) UK remains in the customs union
3) Border in the Irish Sea
4) Ireland leaves the EU Customs union.
Surely 2) is unacceptable fo the Tories, 3) to the DUP, 4) to the Irish Republic.
Which meas a Hard Border, or the government loses DUP support, though DUP seem opposed to hard border too.0 -
But will "the only grown up in the room" Phil Hammond ever become PM in time?Big_G_NorthWales said:Having spent the last week in Lossiemouth with our family's fisher folk the Brexit debate seems almost a non event. The Moray Open is being played with record entrants over the fabulous championship golf course, the typhones take of every day patrolling our northern borders from Russia, HMS Queen Elizabeth moves slowly up and down the Moray firth dwarfing all shipping, the seagulls cry loudly over the town and many a story is told of fisher days of both happiness and at times great strife.
Occassionally logging into this forum it is clear it is polarised by two waring factions each blaming each other over the impending disaster. Some even try to pin it on the extreme right when 52% voted to leave.
I voted remain but accept the verdict and support leave and am a conservative party member. Frankly the only grown up in the room seems to be Phil Hammond and some form of softer Brexit is likely.
The idea we will in some way decide to cancel Brexit and stay in as if the referendum never happened is in my opinion impossible and indeed I have seen no evidence in a shift towards staying in in the polls.
A compromise will indeed happen in due course and in the meantime a pair of typhones have just returned to base together and the morning coffee tastes good0 -
F1: hmm. Vettel down to 3.2 for the title on Betfair. He's currently leading the standings.
I backed Hamilton at 2.1 some time ago (Spain). Might back Vettel now.
Bottas' odds have shortened a smidgen. No desire to add more at 14 or 15.
Edited extra bit: and Vettel's out to 5.5 on Ladbrokes for the win. Each way, that's quite interesting.0 -
It's a very short step from there, though, to parents shouldn't be able to raise their children as they see fit. It ends with accepted parenting values and beliefs, and non-accepted ones, which apply even in the secular sphere.Beverley_C said:
Which goes to show how people view things differently. I view inflicting religion on a child as a form of psychological damage. Your example of Jehovah's Witnesses and blood transfusion are as good an example as any since it trains someone to allow needless self-harm through denying life-saving medical treatment.tlg86 said:
Well no one's ever been prosecuted for it in the UK.The_Apocalypse said:
Don't get me wrong I don't think doctors are infallible, although I must admit I find it difficult to understand/find common ground with the perspectives of prolife Conservatives on the Charlie Gard case and more generally.tlg86 said:@The_Apocalypse - whilst I'm not impressed with some of the stuff that's gone in the Charlie Gard case, and I think the parents are misguided, I think the Left need to be a bit careful here.
It's worth remembering that there are cases where doctors get it wrong (the Ashya King case is an example of this). If I was GOSH I'd have told them, "okay, you sort out the necessary arrangements, and get on with it." But I guess that's why I'm not a doctor!
Furthermore, we only have to look at issues like FGM to realise that the state is happy to let things happen when intervening is seen as being too difficult.
Re FGM - all that I've read suggests that the government is keen to intervene to stop FGM from happening. But I'll search Google now on the matter to get more info on what you're saying is the case.
I think the question you have to ask is "how far do you take the line 'children do not belong to parents'?" Not letting Jehovah Witnesses stop their kids from having blood transfusions is one thing. Not letting them raise them as Jehovah Witnesses in the first place is quite another.
However, I am aware that many do not share my view.
It's a question of degree: many religions teach peace, tolerance, perseverance, inner belief and neighbourliness, which are good things.
It's the more extreme ones (and fringes) that are problematic, such as denying life-saving treatment, and I think this can be largely dealt with by statute.0 -
Philip Hammond appears to be under the impression that the next election is due in June 2022. He is wrong! Under the terms of the FTPA polling day is scheduled for May 5th 2022 – ie this Parliament will be slightly less than 4 years 11 months even if it goes full term. That would only change if the FTPA were to be repealed – which now seems unlikely given the parliamentary arithmetic.0
-
Recent reports seem to indicate he has the backing of Theresa May.logical_song said:
But will "the only grown up in the room" Phil Hammond ever become PM in time?Big_G_NorthWales said:Having spent the last week in Lossiemouth with our family's fisher folk the Brexit debate seems almost a non event. The Moray Open is being played with record entrants over the fabulous championship golf course, the typhones take of every day patrolling our northern borders from Russia, HMS Queen Elizabeth moves slowly up and down the Moray firth dwarfing all shipping, the seagulls cry loudly over the town and many a story is told of fisher days of both happiness and at times great strife.
Occassionally logging into this forum it is clear it is polarised by two waring factions each blaming each other over the impending disaster. Some even try to pin it on the extreme right when 52% voted to leave.
I voted remain but accept the verdict and support leave and am a conservative party member. Frankly the only grown up in the room seems to be Phil Hammond and some form of softer Brexit is likely.
The idea we will in some way decide to cancel Brexit and stay in as if the referendum never happened is in my opinion impossible and indeed I have seen no evidence in a shift towards staying in in the polls.
A compromise will indeed happen in due course and in the meantime a pair of typhones have just returned to base together and the morning coffee tastes good
0 -
To be fair to William, he's very much "out there", and living on another planet in my view, but he's not an angry voice.Brom said:
In fairness William Glenn is one of the few voices angrily moaning all the time. Yes we won, but that doesn't mean we should gloat. I feel particularly since the election the government and civil servants have more of a grip on Brexit than perhaps they did in the earlier part of the year. I'm still over the moon about last June's vote but I don't pretend there won't be some difficult times ahead for our economy, much like their would have been inside the EU.Scott_P said:
But, but, but they're the winners! So much winning, they are getting tired of winning.williamglenn said:the Brexiteers are caught in a trap built by their own hand and it will only get worse.
I am sure I heard that somewhere else recently...
I can list plenty of Remainers who are both angry, rude and bitter. I don't think he's any of those things.0 -
Only one of them's a 'conversation' - involving the Taoiseach, the Irish Foreign Minister and several senior DUP politicians.Scott_P said:
I think they are different conversations.CarlottaVance said:So you think Hannan's views are more important than the Taoiseach's
The other is a single tweet from a single MEP.....0 -
Where does Kevin Costner fit into all that?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. F, not au fait with Richard II, but I know some of John's reign from the very good biography of William Marshal, by Thomas Asbridge. Damned shame Richard the Lionheart got shot.
0 -
Mr. Royale, jealously cutting down Alan Rickman's screen time, one imagines.0
-
All these bald men fighting over a comb! Boris Johnson is a buffoon, and he is terrible in a debating situation. He would look foolish in a PM TV debate. David Davies has got personality but looks old and tired. Phillip Hammond makes John Major look charismatic. Amber Rudd looks like a very angry woman -and with her majority at Hastings, who can blame?
Salvation for the Tories lies on the backbenches. They should start looking now if they want to avoid a Labour minority government next time, and the total disaster that a Corbyn government would be.0 -
The DUP's official policy is for a "frictionless" border between the North and the Republic.foxinsoxuk said:
There are really 4 answers to the Irish border:williamglenn said:
A customs border in the Irish Sea is a practical and workable solution to a problem created by the UK's decision. Telling Ireland to leave the EU as an alternative solution would be an imperialistic power play were it not so laughable.CarlottaVance said:
So you think Hannan's views are more important than the Taoiseach's reported on the front page of the Times, and followed up on R4 with senior DUP politicians?Scott_P said:
And?CarlottaVance said:Check the time stamps.....lol.....
My conversation about Hannan started after your conversation about something else.
You do understand how that works, right?
You don't think there might be more to political discourse than Twitter?
1) a hard border
2) UK remains in the customs union
3) Border in the Irish Sea
4) Ireland leaves the EU Customs union.
Surely 2) is unacceptable fo the Tories, 3) to the DUP, 4) to the Irish Republic.
Which meas a Hard Border, or the government loses DUP support, though DUP seem opposed to hard border too.0 -
Of course, there's no hard border between Norway or Switzerland and the EU, so I'm not sure 2 is true.foxinsoxuk said:
There are really 4 answers to the Irish border:williamglenn said:
A customs border in the Irish Sea is a practical and workable solution to a problem created by the UK's decision. Telling Ireland to leave the EU as an alternative solution would be an imperialistic power play were it not so laughable.CarlottaVance said:
So you think Hannan's views are more important than the Taoiseach's reported on the front page of the Times, and followed up on R4 with senior DUP politicians?Scott_P said:
And?CarlottaVance said:Check the time stamps.....lol.....
My conversation about Hannan started after your conversation about something else.
You do understand how that works, right?
You don't think there might be more to political discourse than Twitter?
1) a hard border
2) UK remains in the customs union
3) Border in the Irish Sea
4) Ireland leaves the EU Customs union.
Surely 2) is unacceptable fo the Tories, 3) to the DUP, 4) to the Irish Republic.
Which meas a Hard Border, or the government loses DUP support, though DUP seem opposed to hard border too.0 -
That'll be useful to know... in about March 2022*justin124 said:Philip Hammond appears to be under the impression that the next election is due in June 2022. He is wrong! Under the terms of the FTPA polling day is scheduled for May 5th 2022 – ie this Parliament will be slightly less than 4 years 11 months even if it goes full term. That would only change if the FTPA were to be repealed – which now seems unlikely given the parliamentary arithmetic.
(*Assuming Brenda from Bristol is not upset again beforehand!)0 -
It's not at all practical, because the rest of the UK is much more important in trading terms to Northern Ireland than the Irish Republic is.williamglenn said:
A customs border in the Irish Sea is a practical and workable solution to a problem created by the UK's decision. Telling Ireland to leave the EU as an alternative solution would be an imperialistic power play were it not so laughable.CarlottaVance said:
So you think Hannan's views are more important than the Taoiseach's reported on the front page of the Times, and followed up on R4 with senior DUP politicians?Scott_P said:
And?CarlottaVance said:Check the time stamps.....lol.....
My conversation about Hannan started after your conversation about something else.
You do understand how that works, right?
You don't think there might be more to political discourse than Twitter?0 -
Richard pardoned the crossbowman who fatally wounded him, but his soldiers still flayed him alive, after Richard's death.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. F, not au fait with Richard II, but I know some of John's reign from the very good biography of William Marshal, by Thomas Asbridge. Damned shame Richard the Lionheart got shot.
0 -
The narrative has been anti-EU virtaully since the day we joined. Typical, if ironic, that the good news about the EU only starts filtering through after we vote to leave. I reckon that by Brexit day the public will be 60-40 in favour of staying in. Won't that be a pretty pass?trawl said:williamglenn
"The pro-Europeans are on the front foot across all levels of civil society for the first time in decades."
So by implication Eurosceptics have been running things all those decades. Really?0 -
Mr. F, I was unaware of that. Bit harsh.0
-
Unless, of course, you are in the border zone.Sean_F said:
It's not at all practical, because the rest of the UK is much more important in trading terms to Northern Ireland than the Irish Republic is.williamglenn said:
A customs border in the Irish Sea is a practical and workable solution to a problem created by the UK's decision. Telling Ireland to leave the EU as an alternative solution would be an imperialistic power play were it not so laughable.CarlottaVance said:
So you think Hannan's views are more important than the Taoiseach's reported on the front page of the Times, and followed up on R4 with senior DUP politicians?Scott_P said:
And?CarlottaVance said:Check the time stamps.....lol.....
My conversation about Hannan started after your conversation about something else.
You do understand how that works, right?
You don't think there might be more to political discourse than Twitter?0 -
Though both are in Schengen and in the EEA, which does not appear to be compatible with current government plans.rcs1000 said:
Of course, there's no hard border between Norway or Switzerland and the EU, so I'm not sure 2 is true.foxinsoxuk said:
There are really 4 answers to the Irish border:williamglenn said:
A customs border in the Irish Sea is a practical and workable solution to a problem created by the UK's decision. Telling Ireland to leave the EU as an alternative solution would be an imperialistic power play were it not so laughable.CarlottaVance said:
So you think Hannan's views are more important than the Taoiseach's reported on the front page of the Times, and followed up on R4 with senior DUP politicians?Scott_P said:
And?CarlottaVance said:Check the time stamps.....lol.....
My conversation about Hannan started after your conversation about something else.
You do understand how that works, right?
You don't think there might be more to political discourse than Twitter?
1) a hard border
2) UK remains in the customs union
3) Border in the Irish Sea
4) Ireland leaves the EU Customs union.
Surely 2) is unacceptable fo the Tories, 3) to the DUP, 4) to the Irish Republic.
Which meas a Hard Border, or the government loses DUP support, though DUP seem opposed to hard border too.0 -
The UK and Ireland joined the EU at the same time in 1973, which avoided border issues between Northern Ireland and Ireland.williamglenn said:
A customs border in the Irish Sea is a practical and workable solution to a problem created by the UK's decision. Telling Ireland to leave the EU as an alternative solution would be an imperialistic power play were it not so laughable.CarlottaVance said:
So you think Hannan's views are more important than the Taoiseach's reported on the front page of the Times, and followed up on R4 with senior DUP politicians?Scott_P said:
And?CarlottaVance said:Check the time stamps.....lol.....
My conversation about Hannan started after your conversation about something else.
You do understand how that works, right?
You don't think there might be more to political discourse than Twitter?
Ireland might choose for itself to leave the EU because of its strong trade and other links with the UK.0 -
Switzerland is not in the EEA.foxinsoxuk said:
Though both are in Schengen and in the EEA, which does not appear to be compatible with current government plans.rcs1000 said:
Of course, there's no hard border between Norway or Switzerland and the EU, so I'm not sure 2 is true.foxinsoxuk said:
There are really 4 answers to the Irish border:williamglenn said:
A customs border in the Irish Sea is a practical and workable solution to a problem created by the UK's decision. Telling Ireland to leave the EU as an alternative solution would be an imperialistic power play were it not so laughable.CarlottaVance said:
So you think Hannan's views are more important than the Taoiseach's reported on the front page of the Times, and followed up on R4 with senior DUP politicians?Scott_P said:
And?CarlottaVance said:Check the time stamps.....lol.....
My conversation about Hannan started after your conversation about something else.
You do understand how that works, right?
You don't think there might be more to political discourse than Twitter?
1) a hard border
2) UK remains in the customs union
3) Border in the Irish Sea
4) Ireland leaves the EU Customs union.
Surely 2) is unacceptable fo the Tories, 3) to the DUP, 4) to the Irish Republic.
Which meas a Hard Border, or the government loses DUP support, though DUP seem opposed to hard border too.
I find it fascinating how so many Remainers who accuse Leavers of idiocy and not knowing what they're talking about turn out to.. not know what they're talking about.0 -
CORRECTIONDavid_Evershed said:
The UK and Ireland joined the EU at the same time in 1973, which avoided border issues between Northern Ireland and Ireland.williamglenn said:
A customs border in the Irish Sea is a practical and workable solution to a problem created by the UK's decision. Telling Ireland to leave the EU as an alternative solution would be an imperialistic power play were it not so laughable.CarlottaVance said:
So you think Hannan's views are more important than the Taoiseach's reported on the front page of the Times, and followed up on R4 with senior DUP politicians?Scott_P said:
And?CarlottaVance said:Check the time stamps.....lol.....
My conversation about Hannan started after your conversation about something else.
You do understand how that works, right?
You don't think there might be more to political discourse than Twitter?
Ireland might choose for itself to leave the EU because of its strong trade and other links with the UK.
The UK and Ireland joined the Common Market at the same time in 19730 -
Pigs ‘might’ fly! Ireland appears to be strongly committed to the EU.David_Evershed said:
The UK and Ireland joined the EU at the same time in 1973, which avoided border issues between Northern Ireland and Ireland.williamglenn said:
A customs border in the Irish Sea is a practical and workable solution to a problem created by the UK's decision. Telling Ireland to leave the EU as an alternative solution would be an imperialistic power play were it not so laughable.CarlottaVance said:
So you think Hannan's views are more important than the Taoiseach's reported on the front page of the Times, and followed up on R4 with senior DUP politicians?Scott_P said:
And?CarlottaVance said:Check the time stamps.....lol.....
My conversation about Hannan started after your conversation about something else.
You do understand how that works, right?
You don't think there might be more to political discourse than Twitter?
Ireland might choose for itself to leave the EU because of its strong trade and other links with the UK.0 -
King Cole, aye.
So's Greece.
When Ireland changes from being a recipient to a contributor of EU funds, they may change their perspective, though I suspect not.0 -
Well, quite. The EU was nowhere to be seen when Blair was trying to get six months' imprisonment without trial and identity cards through.Pulpstar said:
Blair'sGod's work.tlg86 said:
I don't know much about the situation in Poland, but I don't consider it our responsibility to foster democracy around the world.rottenborough said:
The broader moves against Poland are precisely why I am in favour of the EU - it is attempting to stop a democracy sliding into authoritarian control.tlg86 said:
That Farage poster was bang on the money.Casino_Royale said:
The EU yesterday moving to take sanctions against Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic for refusing to help mitigate German migration policy shows just what direction it's going in. As do their broader moves against Poland.Essexit said:Mike and Jonathan nicely demonstrating the two contradictory sides of the Remoaner line on Brexit and the economy today.
Absolutely delighted we're leaving.0 -
Talking of flying PIGS, Ireland has upgraded the growth forecast for 2018 to 3.6% and Spain has posted its 15th successive quarter of growth.OldKingCole said:
Pigs ‘might’ fly! Ireland appears to be strongly committed to the EU.David_Evershed said:
The UK and Ireland joined the EU at the same time in 1973, which avoided border issues between Northern Ireland and Ireland.williamglenn said:
A customs border in the Irish Sea is a practical and workable solution to a problem created by the UK's decision. Telling Ireland to leave the EU as an alternative solution would be an imperialistic power play were it not so laughable.CarlottaVance said:
So you think Hannan's views are more important than the Taoiseach's reported on the front page of the Times, and followed up on R4 with senior DUP politicians?Scott_P said:
And?CarlottaVance said:Check the time stamps.....lol.....
My conversation about Hannan started after your conversation about something else.
You do understand how that works, right?
You don't think there might be more to political discourse than Twitter?
Ireland might choose for itself to leave the EU because of its strong trade and other links with the UK.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2017/jul/28/france-us-uk-growth-gdp-exports-sterling-ftse-business-live0 -
Do you mean that the over-arching, interfering EU was NOT stopping us passing our own legislation through our own parliament?Alice_Aforethought said:
Well, quite. The EU was nowhere to be seen when Blair was trying to get six months' imprisonment without trial and identity cards through.Pulpstar said:
Blair'sGod's work.tlg86 said:
I don't know much about the situation in Poland, but I don't consider it our responsibility to foster democracy around the world.rottenborough said:
The broader moves against Poland are precisely why I am in favour of the EU - it is attempting to stop a democracy sliding into authoritarian control.tlg86 said:
That Farage poster was bang on the money.Casino_Royale said:
The EU yesterday moving to take sanctions against Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic for refusing to help mitigate German migration policy shows just what direction it's going in. As do their broader moves against Poland.Essexit said:Mike and Jonathan nicely demonstrating the two contradictory sides of the Remoaner line on Brexit and the economy today.
Absolutely delighted we're leaving.
I am shocked!
I was under the impression that Westminster was a mere rubber stamp and all laws came from Brussels and that we were Leaving to regain control...........0 -
My mistake, it is in EFTA, and has a complex set of additional agreements, including free movement of people.Casino_Royale said:
Switzerland is not in the EEA.foxinsoxuk said:
Though both are in Schengen and in the EEA, which does not appear to be compatible with current government plans.rcs1000 said:
Of course, there's no hard border between Norway or Switzerland and the EU, so I'm not sure 2 is true.foxinsoxuk said:
There are really 4 answers to the Irish border:williamglenn said:
A customs border in the Irish Sea is a practical and workable solution to a problem created by the UK's decision. Telling Ireland to leave the EU as an alternative solution would be an imperialistic power play were it not so laughable.CarlottaVance said:
So you think Hannan's views are more important than the Taoiseach's reported on the front page of the Times, and followed up on R4 with senior DUP politicians?Scott_P said:
And?CarlottaVance said:Check the time stamps.....lol.....
My conversation about Hannan started after your conversation about something else.
You do understand how that works, right?
You don't think there might be more to political discourse than Twitter?
1) a hard border
2) UK remains in the customs union
3) Border in the Irish Sea
4) Ireland leaves the EU Customs union.
Surely 2) is unacceptable fo the Tories, 3) to the DUP, 4) to the Irish Republic.
Which meas a Hard Border, or the government loses DUP support, though DUP seem opposed to hard border too.
I find it fascinating how so many Remainers who accuse Leavers of idiocy and not knowing what they're talking about turn out to.. not know what they're talking about.
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/switzerland/index_en.htm
None of which matches what our Tory government proposes.
My 4 options for Ireland do cover the posibilities, in all but minor details.
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There was an Indian shipbuilding industry in the 18th century?foxinsoxuk said:
The decline of both the Indian cotton and shipbuilding industries in the 18th and 19th Century, are one example.Alice_Aforethought said:
I've never heard that. Can you give any examples?foxinsoxuk said:Free Trade was just another expression of British Imperialism, as with our Navy we could strangle others trade routes. Even then we set the rules so that within the Empire, native industries were pushed aside by British ones.
Where did its ships sail to?0 -
All over. Most East India Company vessels were built in Bengal, and renowned for their quality and seaworthiness.Alice_Aforethought said:
There was an Indian shipbuilding industry in the 18th century?foxinsoxuk said:
The decline of both the Indian cotton and shipbuilding industries in the 18th and 19th Century, are one example.Alice_Aforethought said:
I've never heard that. Can you give any examples?foxinsoxuk said:Free Trade was just another expression of British Imperialism, as with our Navy we could strangle others trade routes. Even then we set the rules so that within the Empire, native industries were pushed aside by British ones.
Where did its ships sail to?0 -
Must be off, but before I go, just seen Palmer may've damaged the upgraded floor of his Renault. Reportedly cuts 0.2s off a lap time, so if he loses that it's quite a lot.0
