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  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/885812088484089856

    And the Brexit cheerleaders here still in denial...

    Pretty sure its the loony remain mob expecting us to pay 100 billion. I'm happy with us paying for our membership for the 2 year negotiating period and negotiating a fee for any transitional period. If they try to slap an extra exit charge on top then Brits will tell them to do one.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Brom said:

    Pretty sure its the loony remain mob expecting us to pay 100 billion. I'm happy with us paying for our membership for the 2 year negotiating period and negotiating a fee for any transitional period. If they try to slap an extra exit charge on top then Brits will tell them to do one.

    The Brexit Secretary says "obligations to the EU, that will survive the UK's withdrawal"

    That is the official Government position. We will pay in after we leave.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

    I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

    So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

    Vote for Corbyn :(
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    Brom said:

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/885812088484089856

    And the Brexit cheerleaders here still in denial...

    Pretty sure its the loony remain mob expecting us to pay 100 billion. I'm happy with us paying for our membership for the 2 year negotiating period and negotiating a fee for any transitional period. If they try to slap an extra exit charge on top then Brits will tell them to do one.
    There will be EU based Programmes that we will continue to participate in beyond Brexit - andof course we will fund these ongoing. We may also participate in something akin to the EEA/Norway Grants if we use an interim 'Shadow' EEA (because it is currently thought unlikely we will join EFTA and retain formal EEA membership).

    This has never been the big issue about Brexit - it's always been about repatriation of Law and the power of self government. Financially in the short term, it was always likely to be neutral via EEA, or a little worse than neutral via any other method.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981



    Unlicensed villains could presumably get acid from the batteries on the mopeds or cars they drive to the scene of the crime, so I'm not sure that licensing would help much. In any case, bleach would do at a pinch -- available from any supermarket and most launderettes.

    Photo or cctv id will not help as there is no way to link any particular sample of acid used in an attack back to its sale. It's not like matching bullets to the gun that fired them.

    On sentencing, one advantage over knives is acid cannot lead to a charge of attempted murder (or even actual murder if things go wrong) -- and increasing the sentence too much risks the "may as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb" problem.

    Of course photo id will help; if you suspect someone on other grounds of being the perp and you go round his local shops and get footage of him making his purchase it is going to bolster your case, is it not? And making it hard to get hold of stuff tends to reduce the use of it. Villains can steal or illicitly buy firearms in this country if they set their minds to it, but gun crime is still a rarity.
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    Scott_P said:

    The first consequence is that the government has awarded itself vastly excessive executive power. The task of melding EU and UK law is, despite the silly claim of Bernard Jenkin that it is a cinch, very tangled. The government will have to take powers from the Statute of Proclamations 1539 to correct anomalies as they arise. The first major constitutional event of this country’s vaunted post-EU freedom will therefore be ministers exercising powers to amend legislation without parliamentary scrutiny. If some future Fox or Leadsom wants to rub out workers’ rights or environmental protection at the stroke of a pen, they will be able to do so. Oh, sovereignty, how wonderful it will be.

    Just one example among the hundreds of oddities that will occur. Adopting EU law means that Britain would be bound into the European Medicines Agency (EMA). Not surprisingly, however, EU law presupposes membership of the EU, which is a condition of being in the EMA. The withdrawal bill will therefore need a detailed addendum, passed by ministerial fiat, authorising the new regulator. Which does not exist. Repeat this process hundreds of times, against a clock that is ticking and I give you the shambles that is the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5df93632-67f9-11e7-9b7b-d051f7c13c06

    And the alternative solution is?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Well, that's cleared that up then......

    https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/885588047311642626

    Who cares? Is Corbyn on the negotiating team?
    Nor is he a 'government in waiting'.......
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Scott_P said:

    Brom said:

    Pretty sure its the loony remain mob expecting us to pay 100 billion. I'm happy with us paying for our membership for the 2 year negotiating period and negotiating a fee for any transitional period. If they try to slap an extra exit charge on top then Brits will tell them to do one.

    The Brexit Secretary says "obligations to the EU, that will survive the UK's withdrawal"

    That is the official Government position. We will pay in after we leave.
    Well, it was either that, or shoot all the British EU Civil Servants.....
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Brom said:

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/885812088484089856

    And the Brexit cheerleaders here still in denial...

    Pretty sure its the loony remain mob expecting us to pay 100 billion. I'm happy with us paying for our membership for the 2 year negotiating period and negotiating a fee for any transitional period. If they try to slap an extra exit charge on top then Brits will tell them to do one.
    The only important phrase in that document is "departing state".

    The 'departing' bit is where the value is. Actually I don't really mind too much if they pick our pockets on the way out. We'll make it back with the increase in international trade in the medium term.

    Getting out is the key goal. Everything else is noise.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,716

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    GeoffM said:

    The dangerous stuff like acetic acid should clearly be banned.

    There's a whole underworld of Prohibition to exploit.

    psst, you want vinegar on those chips, mate? I know a bloke who can get you some, quiet, like, and it's not the really diluted stuff, proper hard 10% it is...
    Yep. :)... of the crime. Utterly eyewatering exemplary sentences for acid attacks are certainly required.
    I agree with yiur sentencing comments but transfer your licence idea to knives - every type of knife - and see how sensible or not it sounds. Government regulation is not the answer.
    I am saying requiring ID at point of sale would be enough. Seems to work with alcohol sales to under 18s. And/or require that photo evidence of purchasers is taken and kept - this already happens in lots of shops via cctv, without the system grinding to a halt.
    Unlicensed villains could presumably get acid from the batteries on the mopeds or cars they drive to the scene of the crime, so I'm not sure that licensing would help much. In any case, bleach would do at a pinch -- available from any supermarket and most launderettes.

    Photo or cctv id will not help as there is no way to link any particular sample of acid used in an attack back to its sale. It's not like matching bullets to the gun that fired them.

    On sentencing, one advantage over knives is acid cannot lead to a charge of attempted murder (or even actual murder if things go wrong) -- and increasing the sentence too much risks the "may as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb" problem.
    It can:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4608550/Murder-probe-nurse-dies-following-acid-attack.html

    As far as I'm aware, the debate among MPs about legislation is entirely aware of the arguments against onerous restrictions on sale - what thy seem to be agreed on is treating carrying acid the same way as carrying knives, which seems fairly sensible.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,809

    And it's as much bollocks as is was last time they did it 3 years ago. The NHS ranks highly on stuff like care equity but is 10th out of 11 on actually keeping people alive and making them better. Basically they treat everyone equally badly

    It's like claiming Southern is the best rail service provider because they make everyone equally late
    .
    How are you doing, Richard - all sorted on that issue?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,716

    It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

    I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

    So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

    Vote for Corbyn :(

    What we're fairly likely to get is Tory Brexit followed by Corbynite aftermath - the worst of both worlds.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    GeoffM said:

    We'll make it back with the increase in international trade in the medium term.

    No. we really won't

    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/05/22/global-trade-cant-replace-the-value-of-the-eu-single-market-for-the-uk/
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,741
    TonyE said:

    Scott_P said:

    The first consequence is that the government has awarded itself vastly excessive executive power. The task of melding EU and UK law is, despite the silly claim of Bernard Jenkin that it is a cinch, very tangled. The government will have to take powers from the Statute of Proclamations 1539 to correct anomalies as they arise. The first major constitutional event of this country’s vaunted post-EU freedom will therefore be ministers exercising powers to amend legislation without parliamentary scrutiny. If some future Fox or Leadsom wants to rub out workers’ rights or environmental protection at the stroke of a pen, they will be able to do so. Oh, sovereignty, how wonderful it will be.

    Just one example among the hundreds of oddities that will occur. Adopting EU law means that Britain would be bound into the European Medicines Agency (EMA). Not surprisingly, however, EU law presupposes membership of the EU, which is a condition of being in the EMA. The withdrawal bill will therefore need a detailed addendum, passed by ministerial fiat, authorising the new regulator. Which does not exist. Repeat this process hundreds of times, against a clock that is ticking and I give you the shambles that is the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5df93632-67f9-11e7-9b7b-d051f7c13c06

    And the alternative solution is?
    It is yet another demonstration of how much the EU has been controlling and determining our laws. As they will no longer do so that power has to be returned to elected officials in the UK who we can chuck out. It really takes a deeply disturbed mindset to think this is a negative thing.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,406
    Scott_P said:

    GeoffM said:

    We'll make it back with the increase in international trade in the medium term.

    No. we really won't

    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/05/22/global-trade-cant-replace-the-value-of-the-eu-single-market-for-the-uk/
    Geoff is factoring in a lucrative real estate deal on some prime Mediterranean land we still hold.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    DavidL said:

    It is yet another demonstration of how much the EU has been controlling and determining our laws.

    No, it isn't

    It's a demonstration of how International trade requires International bodies, and by departing from one we need to duplicate it at great expense and effort for no gain.

    It's a demonstration of the idiocy of Brexit and the fools who championed it.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,235

    And it's as much bollocks as is was last time they did it 3 years ago. The NHS ranks highly on stuff like care equity but is 10th out of 11 on actually keeping people alive and making them better. Basically they treat everyone equally badly

    It's like claiming Southern is the best rail service provider because they make everyone equally late
    .
    What is encouraging is:

    "over the last decade the UK saw a larger decline in mortality amenable to healthcare than the other countries studied,” the report says. Experts view that as a key measure, because it captures how well a health system is doing at preventing, detecting and treating illness."

    So closing the gap.

    We score poorly on the disease specific outcomes in particular. Like breast cancer, colon cancer survival rates....
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    edited July 2017

    Blue_rog said:

    OchEye said:

    The gastropubs' closures are blamed on Brexit, lower takings, 50% rent rises and the last straw was the election result, so I think we can all agree it is Theresa May's fault.
    Community pubs are finished in the main.
    >

    I just worked out that Tesco, selling 18 x 440ml cans of Stella online for £13, are doing it for £0.93 a pint. That does seem very cheap. 58p a unit.

    Is it right that the weekly units limit for men and women is now 14? 1.5 bottles of wine a week?
    Damn, I thought it was 1.5 bottles a day :)
    Back in the seventies when I started drinking wine I remember the editor of the Sunday Times Wine Guide (top tip, Bulgarian Cab Sav) opining that 'a bottle a day did not seem excessive and he knew people who happily drank two....'. The old joke is 'an alcoholic is someone who drinks more than their doctor' - that said I read the detailed stats behind the drink limits and you had to drink titanic quantities - around two bottles a day - to increase your chances of early death by 10%.....and teetotallers don't live longer (actually, they don't) - it just feels longer.....

    I remember the Bulgarian Cab Sav which I bought through the Sunday Times Wine Club in the 1970s. Never did me any harm.

    Note that Bulgaria managed to export wine to the UK before and after the UK joined the EU in 1973 despite Bulgaria not being in the EU at the time. A miracle.
    Pulpstar said:

    rkrkrk said:

    The gastropubs' closures are blamed on Brexit, lower takings, 50% rent rises and the last straw was the election result, so I think we can all agree it is Theresa May's fault.
    The pub industry is in fatal decline....
    Do you think there is a future Britain with no pubs?
    All 3 (+ the working men's club) in my village seem to be doing ok


    Does Mike Ashley live in your village?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,905

    Well, that's cleared that up then......

    https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/885588047311642626

    He's learnt from Theresa May post referendum, the less you say the better you'll do.
    Still it's disgusting to not officially know what the Leader of the Opposition (and the Opposition in general) stand for.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Scott_P said:

    GeoffM said:

    We'll make it back with the increase in international trade in the medium term.

    No. we really won't

    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/05/22/global-trade-cant-replace-the-value-of-the-eu-single-market-for-the-uk/
    Geoff is factoring in a lucrative real estate deal on some prime Mediterranean land we still hold.
    Perhaps the EU will take Gibralter off our hands as part of settling the Brexit Bill.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Scott_P said:

    DavidL said:

    It is yet another demonstration of how much the EU has been controlling and determining our laws.

    No, it isn't

    It's a demonstration of how International trade requires International bodies, and by departing from one we need to duplicate it at great expense and effort for no gain.

    It's a demonstration of the idiocy of Brexit and the fools who championed it.
    Sorry you're so bitter :) I look forward to settling our membership fees and our future prosperity. Clearly no country can ever survive outside the EU, what were we thinking!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,725
    edited July 2017
    Mr. Song, there will be many votes in Parliament, so we'll find out then.

    Edited extra bit: practice in twenty minutes or so.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,741
    Scott_P said:

    DavidL said:

    It is yet another demonstration of how much the EU has been controlling and determining our laws.

    No, it isn't

    It's a demonstration of how International trade requires International bodies, and by departing from one we need to duplicate it at great expense and effort for no gain.

    It's a demonstration of the idiocy of Brexit and the fools who championed it.
    The examples given in that piece, like workers rights, do not require any international regulation at all. Unravelling EU legislation will be complicated but the gain is that we will then have rules that are relevant to the UK and if we don't like any adverse effect that they have we can change them. If politicians change them in a way we don't like we can change them too. I think its called democracy.
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    DavidL said:

    TonyE said:

    Scott_P said:

    The first consequence is that the government has awarded itself vastly excessive executive power. The task of melding EU and UK law is, despite the silly claim of Bernard Jenkin that it is a cinch, very tangled. The government will have to take powers from the Statute of Proclamations 1539 to correct anomalies as they arise. The first major constitutional event of this country’s vaunted post-EU freedom will therefore be ministers exercising powers to amend legislation without parliamentary scrutiny. If some future Fox or Leadsom wants to rub out workers’ rights or environmental protection at the stroke of a pen, they will be able to do so. Oh, sovereignty, how wonderful it will be.

    Just one example among the hundreds of oddities that will occur. Adopting EU law means that Britain would be bound into the European Medicines Agency (EMA). Not surprisingly, however, EU law presupposes membership of the EU, which is a condition of being in the EMA. The withdrawal bill will therefore need a detailed addendum, passed by ministerial fiat, authorising the new regulator. Which does not exist. Repeat this process hundreds of times, against a clock that is ticking and I give you the shambles that is the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5df93632-67f9-11e7-9b7b-d051f7c13c06

    And the alternative solution is?
    It is yet another demonstration of how much the EU has been controlling and determining our laws. As they will no longer do so that power has to be returned to elected officials in the UK who we can chuck out. It really takes a deeply disturbed mindset to think this is a negative thing.
    Maybe, but that's not quite the question. The question is one of process - How do we repatriate laws, and utilise UK regulators, without a certain degree of 'copy and paste' lawmaking?

    One understanding to take, is that nearly all of the bodies that need repatriating have 'National' arms - ones that were taken under EU control as the single market was built, or ones that were constituted to uphold the values of the single market. They simply need the power to act autonomously, which is currently via EU legislation and UK SI's mainly. So there are staff and structures in most cases, just legal authority is needed.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    GeoffM said:

    Brom said:

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/885812088484089856

    And the Brexit cheerleaders here still in denial...

    Pretty sure its the loony remain mob expecting us to pay 100 billion. I'm happy with us paying for our membership for the 2 year negotiating period and negotiating a fee for any transitional period. If they try to slap an extra exit charge on top then Brits will tell them to do one.
    The only important phrase in that document is "departing state".

    The 'departing' bit is where the value is. Actually I don't really mind too much if they pick our pockets on the way out. We'll make it back with the increase in international trade in the medium term.

    Getting out is the key goal. Everything else is noise.
    Depends what is meant by "getting out".
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    DavidL said:

    It is yet another demonstration of how much the EU has been controlling and determining our laws.

    No, it isn't

    It's a demonstration of how International trade requires International bodies, and by departing from one we need to duplicate it at great expense and effort for no gain.

    It's a demonstration of the idiocy of Brexit and the fools who championed it.
    The examples given in that piece, like workers rights, do not require any international regulation at all. Unravelling EU legislation will be complicated but the gain is that we will then have rules that are relevant to the UK and if we don't like any adverse effect that they have we can change them. If politicians change them in a way we don't like we can change them too. I think its called democracy.
    And of course, govt has undertaken not to change any of this legislation under the GRA2017 - what happens afterwards is of course a matter between Parliament and the voter.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Scott_P said:

    DavidL said:

    It is yet another demonstration of how much the EU has been controlling and determining our laws.

    No, it isn't

    It's a demonstration of how International trade requires International bodies, and by departing from one we need to duplicate it at great expense and effort for no gain.

    It's a demonstration of the idiocy of Brexit and the fools who championed it.

    And the fools who voted for it?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,132

    It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

    I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

    So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

    Vote for Corbyn :(

    No.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,741
    TonyE said:

    DavidL said:

    TonyE said:

    Scott_P said:

    The first consequence is that the government has awarded itself vastly excessive executive power. The task of melding EU and UK law is, despite the silly claim of Bernard Jenkin that it is a cinch, very tangled. The government will have to take powers from the Statute of Proclamations 1539 to correct anomalies as they arise. The first major constitutional event of this country’s vaunted post-EU freedom will therefore be ministers exercising powers to amend legislation without parliamentary scrutiny. If some future Fox or Leadsom wants to rub out workers’ rights or environmental protection at the stroke of a pen, they will be able to do so. Oh, sovereignty, how wonderful it will be.

    Just one example among the hundreds of oddities that will occur. Adopting EU law means that Britain would be bound into the European Medicines Agency (EMA). Not surprisingly, however, EU law presupposes membership of the EU, which is a condition of being in the EMA. The withdrawal bill will therefore need a detailed addendum, passed by ministerial fiat, authorising the new regulator. Which does not exist. Repeat this process hundreds of times, against a clock that is ticking and I give you the shambles that is the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5df93632-67f9-11e7-9b7b-d051f7c13c06

    And the alternative solution is?
    It is yet another demonstration of how much the EU has been controlling and determining our laws. As they will no longer do so that power has to be returned to elected officials in the UK who we can chuck out. It really takes a deeply disturbed mindset to think this is a negative thing.
    Maybe, but that's not quite the question. The question is one of process - How do we repatriate laws, and utilise UK regulators, without a certain degree of 'copy and paste' lawmaking?

    One understanding to take, is that nearly all of the bodies that need repatriating have 'National' arms - ones that were taken under EU control as the single market was built, or ones that were constituted to uphold the values of the single market. They simply need the power to act autonomously, which is currently via EU legislation and UK SI's mainly. So there are staff and structures in most cases, just legal authority is needed.
    The process will be complicated and I expect that our political masters will spend much of the next decade sorting out some of the complications with particular legislation in each area. At the moment some cut and paste is inevitable, there is too much to deal with in the time available but over time we should have better and more accountable regulation than we do now.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 993

    Scott_P said:

    TonyE said:

    The problem with any analysis of this being a 'Bad Tory Campaign' is that the Conservatives received a greater share of the vote than at any election in decades.

    The real story is the rise of Corbynomics, free stuff for everyone, that dragged a lot of voters to his platform, and the fact that nobody thought he could win so the idea of running a negative campaign was pointless. He was the ultimate 'free hit' vote.

    https://twitter.com/_hanimustafa/status/885597305314971648
    Will the £400B plus of QE 'found' for the banks ever be paid back? No, it was created from thin air and will be rolled over.
    No, the QE will be rolled back (eventually). The assets that QE bought (mainly bonds) will be sold back to the banks and other institutions. The real money that the banks pay for these assets will then be electronically destroyed by Bank of England. Eventually the £400b or whatever it is will no longer exist.

    That's the theory anyway.

    Tons of issues with this massive economic experiment and I fear there is trouble ahead.
    How many of the bonds bought by QE were gilts? Surely QE was just away of "financing" government borrowing - the wonder is that they stopped at £400bn - why not finance the lot that way? Presumably the BoE is raking in lots of interest from these bonds - who gets that?
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    GeoffM said:

    Brom said:

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/885812088484089856

    And the Brexit cheerleaders here still in denial...

    Pretty sure its the loony remain mob expecting us to pay 100 billion. I'm happy with us paying for our membership for the 2 year negotiating period and negotiating a fee for any transitional period. If they try to slap an extra exit charge on top then Brits will tell them to do one.
    The only important phrase in that document is "departing state".

    The 'departing' bit is where the value is. Actually I don't really mind too much if they pick our pockets on the way out. We'll make it back with the increase in international trade in the medium term.

    Getting out is the key goal. Everything else is noise.
    Depends what is meant by "getting out".
    Out means out
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    GeoffM said:

    Brom said:

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/885812088484089856

    And the Brexit cheerleaders here still in denial...

    Pretty sure its the loony remain mob expecting us to pay 100 billion. I'm happy with us paying for our membership for the 2 year negotiating period and negotiating a fee for any transitional period. If they try to slap an extra exit charge on top then Brits will tell them to do one.
    The only important phrase in that document is "departing state".

    The 'departing' bit is where the value is. Actually I don't really mind too much if they pick our pockets on the way out. We'll make it back with the increase in international trade in the medium term.

    Getting out is the key goal. Everything else is noise.
    Depends what is meant by "getting out".
    Being able to make and amend our own laws, create our own trade deals without the rigmarole of consulting a central body that does not have our best interests at heart.
    You appear to have been fooled that rewriting 40 years of bureaucracy in 2 years would be a piece of cake and shocked that there are difficulties. The process was never going to be easy but with Article 50 enacted it can no longer be reversed. I have full confidence that the country will be in more prosperous position 10 years down the line than it is now. People no longer want key decisions that affect their lives and businesses made in Brussels on their behalf, and that's completely understandable.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,725
    edited July 2017
    Mrs C, Corbyn's a self-declared friend of Hamas and Hezbollah, a unilateralist, an economically illiterate useful idiot.

    I'd vote Green before Corbyn's Labour. Corbyn as PM will* cause massive damage to the UK. Trident will be no more, our already large deficit will balloon again, and we'll have a self-declared friend of people who throw gays from rooftops in charge of our government.

    Edited extra bit: would* not will. I hope.

    Anyway, I must be off.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    GeoffM said:

    Out means out

    Brexit means Brexit.

    Dipshit means dipshit.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,826
    Icarus said:

    Scott_P said:

    TonyE said:

    The problem with any analysis of this being a 'Bad Tory Campaign' is that the Conservatives received a greater share of the vote than at any election in decades.

    The real story is the rise of Corbynomics, free stuff for everyone, that dragged a lot of voters to his platform, and the fact that nobody thought he could win so the idea of running a negative campaign was pointless. He was the ultimate 'free hit' vote.

    https://twitter.com/_hanimustafa/status/885597305314971648
    Will the £400B plus of QE 'found' for the banks ever be paid back? No, it was created from thin air and will be rolled over.
    No, the QE will be rolled back (eventually). The assets that QE bought (mainly bonds) will be sold back to the banks and other institutions. The real money that the banks pay for these assets will then be electronically destroyed by Bank of England. Eventually the £400b or whatever it is will no longer exist.

    That's the theory anyway.

    Tons of issues with this massive economic experiment and I fear there is trouble ahead.
    How many of the bonds bought by QE were gilts? Surely QE was just away of "financing" government borrowing - the wonder is that they stopped at £400bn - why not finance the lot that way? Presumably the BoE is raking in lots of interest from these bonds - who gets that?
    The BoE both issues and purchases the bonds - that's the point. Over half of UK government bonds are now owned by the Bank of England.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Scott_P said:

    DavidL said:

    It is yet another demonstration of how much the EU has been controlling and determining our laws.

    No, it isn't

    It's a demonstration of how International trade requires International bodies, and by departing from one we need to duplicate it at great expense and effort for no gain.

    It's a demonstration of the idiocy of Brexit and the fools who championed it.
    And of the sloth, stupidity and self-satisfaction of its opponents.

    Just kidding, of course, because we know that Leave painted a NUMBER on a BUS, and who could be expected to prevail against such fiendish ingenuity?
  • Alice_AforethoughtAlice_Aforethought Posts: 772
    edited July 2017

    Ms. Forethought, it's unscientific, innumerate idiocy that men and women have the same alcohol limits. It's PC bullshit trumping fact-based evidence, and sends the very dangerous signal that, in general, women have the same alcohol tolerance as men.

    Still, if a load of women get alcohol poisoning they wouldn't've otherwise gotten, at least they can rest (or die) safe in the knowledge that they were treated just the same as men. Despite not having as much blood in their bodies, decreasing their tolerance for alcohol.

    *sighs* It beggars belief.

    According to my GP, these limits are empirical and emerge from the observation that men on 20 units a week exhibit (approximately) no evidence of liver or other alcohol-related problems, whereas those on higher intakes than that sometimes do, and sometimes do not. Thus, as you have no idea whether or not you are among the fortunate cohort that can do 100 units a week and live to 90 without ill effect, the conservative course is to stick to 20 units. There is no piece of research that persuasively shows how 40 units are worse than 20 or better than 60, it's simply that people on 20, broadly put, exhibit none of the ill effects seen in those on 100.

    That 20-unit limit now seems to have dropped to 14 for both XX and XY types, something I find very odd considering XYs have something like 1/3 more body weight and organ capacity than XXs. Is there another agenda here? Booze is broadly equally calorific per unit regardless of what it is - beer 89 calories, wine 70, soyder 83, spirits 60 but that's before the sugary mixers - so is there maybe a stealth anti-obesity thing going on? But if so why hasn't the XX "allowance" been reduced too?
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Brom said:

    GeoffM said:

    Brom said:

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/885812088484089856

    And the Brexit cheerleaders here still in denial...

    Pretty sure its the loony remain mob expecting us to pay 100 billion. I'm happy with us paying for our membership for the 2 year negotiating period and negotiating a fee for any transitional period. If they try to slap an extra exit charge on top then Brits will tell them to do one.
    The only important phrase in that document is "departing state".

    The 'departing' bit is where the value is. Actually I don't really mind too much if they pick our pockets on the way out. We'll make it back with the increase in international trade in the medium term.

    Getting out is the key goal. Everything else is noise.
    Depends what is meant by "getting out".
    Being able to make and amend our own laws, create our own trade deals without the rigmarole of consulting a central body that does not have our best interests at heart.
    You appear to have been fooled that rewriting 40 years of bureaucracy in 2 years would be a piece of cake and shocked that there are difficulties. The process was never going to be easy but with Article 50 enacted it can no longer be reversed. I have full confidence that the country will be in more prosperous position 10 years down the line than it is now. People no longer want key decisions that affect their lives and businesses made in Brussels on their behalf, and that's completely understandable.
    We've been sucked into a bureaucratic vortex which was designed to be a one way trip. The difficulties clearly show that this was just about our last chance to wriggle free. A few more years and we would have been completely conquered,

    Yes, for the first time in years we're going to have to make a bit of effort and do some work ourselves rather than rely on rules being imposed on us.

    That said, the challenges are not as tricky as some of those who walk amongst us would have us believe. There is a motive behind their scaremongering and it is not one that works in the interests of our country.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Scott_P said:

    GeoffM said:

    Out means out

    Brexit means Brexit.

    Dipshit means dipshit.
    Retweet means retweet
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,741
    This test match is not developing to England's advantage....
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,905
    GeoffM said:

    Scott_P said:

    GeoffM said:

    Out means out

    Brexit means Brexit.

    Dipshit means dipshit.
    Retweet means retweet
    Specialist subject 'The Bleedin' Obvious'
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    GeoffM said:

    Retweet means retweet

    Yes, and you haven't figured it out yet
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,132
    Scott_P said:

    GeoffM said:

    Out means out

    Brexit means Brexit.

    Dipshit means dipshit.
    Don't be so hard on yourself.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Don't be so hard on yourself.

    Sloooooowwwww hand clap...
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    GeoffM said:

    Scott_P said:

    GeoffM said:

    Out means out

    Brexit means Brexit.

    Dipshit means dipshit.
    Retweet means retweet
    Specialist subject 'The Bleedin' Obvious'
    A great quote, yes!

    Basil: Can't we get you on Mastermind, Sybil? Next contestant - Sybil Fawlty from Torquay, specialist subject: the bleedin' obvious.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    DavidL said:

    This test match is not developing to England's advantage....

    We're lulling them into a true sense of security.
  • Alice_AforethoughtAlice_Aforethought Posts: 772
    edited July 2017
    GeoffM said:

    Brom said:

    GeoffM said:

    Brom said:

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/885812088484089856

    And the Brexit cheerleaders here still in denial...

    Pretty sure its the loony remain mob expecting us to pay 100 billion. I'm happy with us paying for our membership for the 2 year negotiating period and negotiating a fee for any transitional period. If they try to slap an extra exit charge on top then Brits will tell them to do one.
    The only important phrase in that document is "departing state".

    The 'departing' bit is where the value is. Actually I don't really mind too much if they pick our pockets on the way out. We'll make it back with the increase in international trade in the medium term.

    Getting out is the key goal. Everything else is noise.
    Depends what is meant by "getting out".
    We've been sucked into a bureaucratic vortex which was designed to be a one way trip. The difficulties clearly show that this was just about our last chance to wriggle free. A few more years and we would have been completely conquered,

    Yes, for the first time in years we're going to have to make a bit of effort and do some work ourselves rather than rely on rules being imposed on us.

    That said, the challenges are not as tricky as some of those who walk amongst us would have us believe. There is a motive behind their scaremongering and it is not one that works in the interests of our country.
    What will be interesting is if the next round of EU integration lawmaking leaves anything like Article 50 still in place.

    The first line of defence against further secessions from the EU is to make it as painful as possible to secede, but once out the EU can do very little to hinder former members from becoming prosperous. Should that happen to UK there will be other countries that decide to leave too; in which case the logical precaution is to remove Article 50 altogether and make secession constructively impossible, either overtly or otherwise. Perhaps compulsory euro membership will be the preferred route to achieve this?

    I do think that Remainers who imagine we'll one day rejoin are living in a bit of a dreamworld. The manner of our exit from the EU will not make it fondly remembered, and the terms to rejoin would likely include deeper membership than was previously rejected that is also irreversible. The idea that anyone will win an election on such a platform strikes me as fanciful.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited July 2017

    [snip]
    That 20-unit limit now seems to have dropped to 14 for both XX and XY types, something I find very odd.. [snip]

    I took some trouble to read the report of the Chief Medical Officer upon which that recommendation was made, and their own data simply doesn't support their recommendations. They ignored differences between the sexes, ignored age effects, confused binge drinking with regular non-binge drinking, and factored in bizarre irrelevancies such as youngsters jumping into cold lakes when drunk.

    In other words, the recommendation is a load of nonsense - and quite dangerous, IMO, because it subverts public faith in sensible advice.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,716

    Ms. Forethought, it's unscientific, innumerate idiocy that men and women have the same alcohol limits. It's PC bullshit trumping fact-based evidence, and sends the very dangerous signal that, in general, women have the same alcohol tolerance as men.

    Still, if a load of women get alcohol poisoning they wouldn't've otherwise gotten, at least they can rest (or die) safe in the knowledge that they were treated just the same as men. Despite not having as much blood in their bodies, decreasing their tolerance for alcohol.

    *sighs* It beggars belief.

    According to my GP, these limits are empirical and emerge from the observation that men on 20 units a week exhibit (approximately) no evidence of liver or other alcohol-related problems, whereas those on higher intakes than that sometimes do, and sometimes do not. Thus, as you have no idea whether or not you are among the fortunate cohort that can do 100 units a week and live to 90 without ill effect, the conservative course is to stick to 20 units. There is no piece of research that persuasively shows how 40 units are worse than 20 or better than 60, it's simply that people on 20, broadly put, exhibit none of the ill effects seen in those on 100.

    That 20-unit limit now seems to have dropped to 14 for both XX and XY types, something I find very odd considering XYs have something like 1/3 more body weight and organ capacity than XXs. Is there another agenda here? Booze is broadly equally calorific per unit regardless of what it is - beer 89 calories, wine 70, soyder 83, spirits 60 but that's before the sugary mixers - so is there maybe a stealth anti-obesity thing going on? But if so why hasn't the XX "allowance" been reduced too?
    If you read the detailed guidance, you'll see that they included accidents in the mortality figures.
    Broadly speaking, men are far more likely to kill themselves by behaving ridiculously when pissed, hence the recommendations. The precise limits are fairly irrelevant (who counts units anyway ?) - the message that limiting your drinking is healthy is entirely sensible.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,132
    Off topic, I had a very disturbing email first thing this morning from a close friend of mine who is very senior in a pharmaceutical firm. He went to a small dinner last night and had people (colleagues) literally screaming at him demanding he justify his vote to Leave, which he admitted to.

    He is one of the most decent and nicest people I know (think David Herdson or Nick Palmer levels of politeness) and isn't usually fazed, but is quite upset about it. It's really shaken him up.

    It is getting quite nasty out there.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,716
    I'm not sure I could even find it....
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,203

    Off topic, I had a very disturbing email first thing this morning from a close friend of mine who is very senior in a pharmaceutical firm. He went to a small dinner last night and had people (colleagues) literally screaming at him demanding he justify his vote to Leave, which he admitted to.

    He is one of the most decent and nicest people I know (think David Herdson or Nick Palmer levels of politeness) and isn't usually fazed, but is quite upset about it. It's really shaken him up.

    It is getting quite nasty out there.


    How awful! :(
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,203
    edited July 2017
    How nice;

    https://twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/885808266688835584


    Translated from French by Bing
    The presence today at my side of the President of the United States, Mr Donald Trump, is the sign of friendship that transcends time. "
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677



    It is getting quite nasty out there.

    This is just the start.

    My best friend that I've known since we were 5 voted Leave. I haven't spoken to him since.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,826
    edited July 2017

    Off topic, I had a very disturbing email first thing this morning from a close friend of mine who is very senior in a pharmaceutical firm. He went to a small dinner last night and had people (colleagues) literally screaming at him demanding he justify his vote to Leave, which he admitted to.

    He is one of the most decent and nicest people I know (think David Herdson or Nick Palmer levels of politeness) and isn't usually fazed, but is quite upset about it. It's really shaken him up.

    It is getting quite nasty out there.

    Sorry to hear that.

    Whoever it was earlier this morning assuring us that beyond the weird world of PB no-one was getting exercised about Brexit should clearly get out more.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,203
    Dura_Ace said:



    It is getting quite nasty out there.

    This is just the start.

    My best friend that I've known since we were 5 voted Leave. I haven't spoken to him since.
    Madness!

    How far would you take this? Would you actually go as far as a civil war over Jean Claude Juncker?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,132
    Dura_Ace said:



    It is getting quite nasty out there.

    This is just the start.

    My best friend that I've known since we were 5 voted Leave. I haven't spoken to him since.
    To be honest, that says more about you than it does him.

    I would never sacrifice a close friendship over political differences.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Dura_Ace said:



    It is getting quite nasty out there.

    This is just the start.

    My best friend that I've known since we were 5 voted Leave. I haven't spoken to him since.
    And do you want a medal for this, or just our heartfelt admiration and respect?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,314
    TOPPING said:

    And it's as much bollocks as is was last time they did it 3 years ago. The NHS ranks highly on stuff like care equity but is 10th out of 11 on actually keeping people alive and making them better. Basically they treat everyone equally badly

    It's like claiming Southern is the best rail service provider because they make everyone equally late
    .
    How are you doing, Richard - all sorted on that issue?
    No change at present. I have a rather personal investigation on Thursday which I keep jokingly referring to as a man in a wet suit with a Kodak. Hopefully they will work out what the score is and get some treatment going if necessary.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,518
    GIN1138 said:

    How nice;

    https://twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/885808266688835584


    Translated from French by Bing
    The presence today at my side of the President of the United States, Mr Donald Trump, is the sign of friendship that transcends time. "

    Could also translate as "transcends the weather" I think.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

    I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

    So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

    Vote for Corbyn :(

    No.
    There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

    If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    The recommended units per week is meant to send a message - it's not scientific. The message is that alcohol can be bad for you.

    To start with, there's no effort to explain the difference between dose and dosage - the very basics of toxicology.

    If they were to try to explain that alcohol in small doses could be good for you - that would confuse the message. They suspect you'd all think ... if it could be good in small doses, perhaps I should be drinking to excess. You can't trust the voters with anything - look at the Brexit referendum.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,203

    TOPPING said:

    And it's as much bollocks as is was last time they did it 3 years ago. The NHS ranks highly on stuff like care equity but is 10th out of 11 on actually keeping people alive and making them better. Basically they treat everyone equally badly

    It's like claiming Southern is the best rail service provider because they make everyone equally late
    .
    How are you doing, Richard - all sorted on that issue?
    No change at present. I have a rather personal investigation on Thursday which I keep jokingly referring to as a man in a wet suit with a Kodak. Hopefully they will work out what the score is and get some treatment going if necessary.
    Nice to hear your keeping your humour about the whole thing.

    It does help...
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,314

    It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

    I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

    So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

    Vote for Corbyn :(

    No.
    There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

    If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.
    What if both are unfit to govern?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Off topic, I had a very disturbing email first thing this morning from a close friend of mine who is very senior in a pharmaceutical firm. He went to a small dinner last night and had people (colleagues) literally screaming at him demanding he justify his vote to Leave, which he admitted to.

    He is one of the most decent and nicest people I know (think David Herdson or Nick Palmer levels of politeness) and isn't usually fazed, but is quite upset about it. It's really shaken him up.

    It is getting quite nasty out there.

    Maybe because the industry is under serious threat from Brexit

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/885413082817757185
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Mr Ace,

    I suggest you keep very quiet in darkest Lincolnshire.

    I have many friends who voted for Remain. I don't mind, no one's perfect.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,716
    edited July 2017
    GIN1138 said:

    How nice;

    https://twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/885808266688835584


    Translated from French by Bing
    The presence today at my side of the President of the United States, Mr Donald Trump, is the sign of friendship that transcends time. "

    Macron has worked out that with Trump, flattery will get you everywhere:
    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2017/07/in_paris_macron_turns_on_the_charm_for_trump.html

    (edit - and the subtext is perhaps that not even Trump can destroy the friendship between the two nations.)
  • Alice_AforethoughtAlice_Aforethought Posts: 772
    edited July 2017

    It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

    I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

    So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

    Vote for Corbyn :(

    No.
    There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

    If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.
    What about if they're both unfit to govern?

    edit: Mr. Tyndall got there first.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,203
    Scott_P said:

    Off topic, I had a very disturbing email first thing this morning from a close friend of mine who is very senior in a pharmaceutical firm. He went to a small dinner last night and had people (colleagues) literally screaming at him demanding he justify his vote to Leave, which he admitted to.

    He is one of the most decent and nicest people I know (think David Herdson or Nick Palmer levels of politeness) and isn't usually fazed, but is quite upset about it. It's really shaken him up.

    It is getting quite nasty out there.

    Maybe because the industry is under serious threat from Brexit

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/885413082817757185
    What on earth do all other counties that aren't in the EU do to access "life saving medicines? "

    It really is astonishing really that any other country can possibly function without Jean Claude Juncker...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,132
    Scott_P said:

    Off topic, I had a very disturbing email first thing this morning from a close friend of mine who is very senior in a pharmaceutical firm. He went to a small dinner last night and had people (colleagues) literally screaming at him demanding he justify his vote to Leave, which he admitted to.

    He is one of the most decent and nicest people I know (think David Herdson or Nick Palmer levels of politeness) and isn't usually fazed, but is quite upset about it. It's really shaken him up.

    It is getting quite nasty out there.

    Maybe because the industry is under serious threat from Brexit

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/885413082817757185
    No, that's just you and your propaganda broadcasts.

    He thinks it's going to be fine.
  • It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

    I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

    So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

    Vote for Corbyn :(

    No.
    There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

    If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.
    That's daft - we had a two party coalition just over two years ago & we're not far away from one at the moment. The Lib Dems would improve any government that they took part in.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,314

    It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

    I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

    So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

    Vote for Corbyn :(

    No.
    There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

    If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.
    What about if they're both unfit to govern?
    Snap :)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,384
    Scott_P said:

    Off topic, I had a very disturbing email first thing this morning from a close friend of mine who is very senior in a pharmaceutical firm. He went to a small dinner last night and had people (colleagues) literally screaming at him demanding he justify his vote to Leave, which he admitted to.

    He is one of the most decent and nicest people I know (think David Herdson or Nick Palmer levels of politeness) and isn't usually fazed, but is quite upset about it. It's really shaken him up.

    It is getting quite nasty out there.

    Maybe because the industry is under serious threat from Brexit

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/885413082817757185
    Sadly this short term economic hit that some Leavers think is worth it is in reality people's jobs and livelihoods, people are going to get angry.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    GIN1138 said:

    What on earth do all other counties that aren't in the EU do to access "life saving medicines? "

    They buy them, at considerable expense.

    Brexit will make medicine more expensive.

    Why didn't they put that on the side of a bus?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,132

    It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

    I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

    So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

    Vote for Corbyn :(

    No.
    There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

    If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.
    They are not unfit to govern. And, even if they were, they'd be ten times better than Corbyn/McDonnell who are professional nation fucker-uppers.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Dura_Ace said:



    It is getting quite nasty out there.

    This is just the start.

    My best friend that I've known since we were 5 voted Leave. I haven't spoken to him since.
    That says more about you than him, unless it's purely a coincidence.

    It's really quite sad that you can't even admit that there were good and bad reasons for voting Remain and Leave. Neither side had a monopoly of virtue or wisdom.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,203
    edited July 2017
    Nigelb said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How nice;

    https://twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/885808266688835584


    Translated from French by Bing
    The presence today at my side of the President of the United States, Mr Donald Trump, is the sign of friendship that transcends time. "

    Macron has worked out that with Trump, flattery will get you everywhere:
    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2017/07/in_paris_macron_turns_on_the_charm_for_trump.html
    Yep.

    But when the Great French Hope was elected POF did the lefties and "centrists" on here really believe Macron would rolling out the red carpet and sucking up to Donald Trump by Bastille Day?

    Macron = Letdown for the left?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,034

    It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

    I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

    So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

    Vote for Corbyn :(

    No.
    There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

    If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.
    They are not unfit to govern. And, even if they were, they'd be ten times better than Corbyn/McDonnell who are professional nation fucker-uppers.
    The ability of remainers to embrace the batshit craziness of Corbyn & McDonnell is worrying !
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

    I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

    So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

    Vote for Corbyn :(

    No.
    There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

    If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.
    That's daft - we had a two party coalition just over two years ago & we're not far away from one at the moment. The Lib Dems would improve any government that they took part in.
    This would be the same LibDems that were nearly wiped out as a result of their last coalition? The same ones who ruled out another coalition?

    https://www.libdems.org.uk/coalition
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,314
    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Off topic, I had a very disturbing email first thing this morning from a close friend of mine who is very senior in a pharmaceutical firm. He went to a small dinner last night and had people (colleagues) literally screaming at him demanding he justify his vote to Leave, which he admitted to.

    He is one of the most decent and nicest people I know (think David Herdson or Nick Palmer levels of politeness) and isn't usually fazed, but is quite upset about it. It's really shaken him up.

    It is getting quite nasty out there.

    Maybe because the industry is under serious threat from Brexit

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/885413082817757185
    What on earth do all other counties that aren't in the EU do to access "life saving medicines? "

    It really is astonishing really that any other country can possibly function without Jean Claude Juncker...
    The only country i have heard of in recent times that had trouble accessing medicines was Greece and that was directly because of the EU pushing the country to the edge of destructuon.
  • It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

    I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

    So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

    Vote for Corbyn :(

    No.
    There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

    If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.
    They are not unfit to govern. And, even if they were, they'd be ten times better than Corbyn/McDonnell who are professional nation fucker-uppers.
    "Fuckers-up", surely. In no language with which I am acquainted does the preposition have to agree with the adjacent noun, even if used adverbially as here.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Scott_P said:

    GIN1138 said:

    What on earth do all other counties that aren't in the EU do to access "life saving medicines? "

    They buy them, at considerable expense.

    Brexit will make medicine more expensive.

    Why didn't they put that on the side of a bus?
    Meaning, you think they are cheap, if not free, for EU member states? Seriously?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,132
    CD13 said:

    Mr Ace,

    I suggest you keep very quiet in darkest Lincolnshire.

    I have many friends who voted for Remain. I don't mind, no one's perfect.

    There are many industries where I'd advise those who voted Leave to keep their mouths shut for social and professional reasons.

    It isn't worth it.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

    I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

    So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

    Vote for Corbyn :(

    No.
    There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

    If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.
    What about if they're both unfit to govern?
    Snap :)
    Then we might as well change the existing one for the other lot. The old consulting rule of "If what you are doing does not work, then stop doing it and try something else" is what seems to apply here.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Meaning, you think they are cheap, if not free, for EU member states? Seriously?

    Memebers of the single market can buy and sell things cheaper than those who are not members.

    This is not complicated, unless you are a Brexiteer apparently
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,384
    Pulpstar said:

    It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

    I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

    So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

    Vote for Corbyn :(

    No.
    There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

    If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.
    They are not unfit to govern. And, even if they were, they'd be ten times better than Corbyn/McDonnell who are professional nation fucker-uppers.
    The ability of remainers to embrace the batshit craziness of Corbyn & McDonnell is worrying !
    Tell me about it, I spent six hours with JohnO of this parish, that's what's really worrying us, and a Brexit recession were it happen = Corbyn landslide.

    Oh and the worry that the only way the people will oppose Corbyn's economic policies is when they've had five years of it.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,314

    It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

    I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

    So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

    Vote for Corbyn :(

    No.
    There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

    If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.
    What about if they're both unfit to govern?
    Snap :)
    Then we might as well change the existing one for the other lot. The old consulting rule of "If what you are doing does not work, then stop doing it and try something else" is what seems to apply here.
    OR do what sensible people do when confronted by two equally useless products which is refuse to buy either.
  • It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

    I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

    So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

    Vote for Corbyn :(

    No.
    There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

    If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.
    That's daft - we had a two party coalition just over two years ago & we're not far away from one at the moment. The Lib Dems would improve any government that they took part in.
    This would be the same LibDems that were nearly wiped out as a result of their last coalition? The same ones who ruled out another coalition?

    https://www.libdems.org.uk/coalition
    The state of the two big parties is radically different to what it was before the election, which changes the calculations about coalitions. The Lib Dems are about to change leader & I suspect the no coalitions position will be modified somewhat.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Pulpstar said:

    It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

    I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

    So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

    Vote for Corbyn :(

    No.
    There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

    If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.
    They are not unfit to govern. And, even if they were, they'd be ten times better than Corbyn/McDonnell who are professional nation fucker-uppers.
    The ability of remainers to embrace the batshit craziness of Corbyn & McDonnell is worrying !
    I am not embracing anything - I am being forced to consider the alternative, batsh*t or otherwise. I have reached the point where I do not want to vote FOR the govt so my only option is to vote AGAINST and the only party with any hope of forming a govt is Labour.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Sadly this short term economic hit that some Leavers think is worth it is in reality people's jobs and livelihoods, people are going to get angry.

    But the Brexiteers keep telling us they knew what they were voting for.

    Anyone who voted for Brexit, and loses their job, will be cheering, right?

    Let them eat Sovereignty...
  • currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171
    I think the nonsense that is now being said/written about the dangers of Brexit is even worse than the hyperbole that was used in the campaign.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

    I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

    So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

    Vote for Corbyn :(

    No.
    There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

    If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.
    What about if they're both unfit to govern?
    Snap :)
    Then we might as well change the existing one for the other lot. The old consulting rule of "If what you are doing does not work, then stop doing it and try something else" is what seems to apply here.
    OR do what sensible people do when confronted by two equally useless products which is refuse to buy either.
    Indeed Richard, but if something HAS to be purchased ....?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Off topic, I had a very disturbing email first thing this morning from a close friend of mine who is very senior in a pharmaceutical firm. He went to a small dinner last night and had people (colleagues) literally screaming at him demanding he justify his vote to Leave, which he admitted to.

    He is one of the most decent and nicest people I know (think David Herdson or Nick Palmer levels of politeness) and isn't usually fazed, but is quite upset about it. It's really shaken him up.

    It is getting quite nasty out there.

    Maybe because the industry is under serious threat from Brexit

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/885413082817757185
    What on earth do all other counties that aren't in the EU do to access "life saving medicines? "

    It really is astonishing really that any other country can possibly function without Jean Claude Juncker...
    The only country i have heard of in recent times that had trouble accessing medicines was Greece and that was directly because of the EU pushing the country to the edge of destructuon.
    Over the last year there have been quite a shortage of various staple pharmaceuticals that I prescibe. Apparently it is because the NHS has negotiated such low rates that the companies supply the Continent instead, as in the single market they can, and make bigger profits.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,716

    It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

    I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

    So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

    Vote for Corbyn :(

    No.
    There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

    If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.
    They are not unfit to govern. And, even if they were, they'd be ten times better than Corbyn/McDonnell who are professional nation fucker-uppers.
    "Fuckers-up", surely. In no language with which I am acquainted does the preposition have to agree with the adjacent noun, even if used adverbially as here.
    Neologisms don't always follow grammatical rules.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,716

    Pulpstar said:

    It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

    I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

    So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

    Vote for Corbyn :(

    No.
    There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

    If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.
    They are not unfit to govern. And, even if they were, they'd be ten times better than Corbyn/McDonnell who are professional nation fucker-uppers.
    The ability of remainers to embrace the batshit craziness of Corbyn & McDonnell is worrying !
    Tell me about it, I spent six hours with JohnO of this parish, that's what's really worrying us, and a Brexit recession were it happen = Corbyn landslide.

    Oh and the worry that the only way the people will oppose Corbyn's economic policies is when they've had five years of it.
    My fear, too.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    currystar said:

    I think the nonsense that is now being said/written about the dangers of Brexit is even worse than the hyperbole that was used in the campaign.

    Like the Government saying they will continue to pay, after we leave.

    Oh, wait...
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Torment-um,the new Tory version of Momentum.

    "Once the door is opened, they will find the art of persuasion more difficult. “Hi, we’re here to talk about starving your nan and selling your child’s liver” may have its limits as an opening gambit."

    https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-a5a9-Can-the-Conservatives-find-momentum#.WWi38YQrLIU

  • Alice_AforethoughtAlice_Aforethought Posts: 772
    edited July 2017

    It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

    I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

    So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

    Vote for Corbyn :(

    No.
    There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

    If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.
    That's daft - we had a two party coalition just over two years ago & we're not far away from one at the moment. The Lib Dems would improve any government that they took part in.
    With so much talent concentrated into just 14 MPs, the LibDems are clearly intellectual crack cocaine compared to the blandly insipid alcopops of the other parties' MPs. They won so few seats only because the electorate are simply too glacially stupid to appreciate what Titans the LibDems are. They are the bald albino bodybuilders of Prometheus; other MPs are Guy Pearce in comparison.

    Tim Farron's gravitas is so extreme he distorts local space-time and is thereby ironically Dopplered into looking like a hapless, abject lightweight who would narrowly fail an audition for Grange Hill.

    Still, we must not repine. Instead we must be grateful for the 14 LibDem MPs with which we have been blessed, while ruefully wishing there were more, so that they could even more "improve any government that they took part in".
This discussion has been closed.