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Mr Dancer.
It is a concern about bad practice/lack of supervision/bad procedures/no oversight.
Put it this way some or all of the above could impact the Euro, businesses in the Eurozone (as William Glenn noted below)
This could also lead to interest rates being forced to rise to support a currency.
Would you be happy if the reverse applied to the UK?0 -
The post war Labour government ran surpluses from 1947.glw said:
Rationing didn't even end until the 1950s. The idea that the post-war years were anything other than bloody hard is ludicrous.David_Evershed said:bigjohnowls said:After WW2 UK debt was 250% of GDP. How did Labour reduce it? By SPENDING on homes, NHS, public services
Austerity doesnt work
Things were (rightly) very austere in the 1940s under Labour.
We didn't waste money on things like Starbucks or eating out. Make do and mend era.0 -
Unleash the Farage.Scott_P said:
That's the killer line.FF43 said:The logic of less Brexit being good is that no Brexit is even better.
It was always true that no Brexit is better than any Brexit, but the headbangers wanted it anyway.
Meanwhile, Farage is apparently unhappy about the current state of Brexit.
Shame.0 -
I'm very confident that it will be a number of factors that caused it.AlastairMeeks said:I'm amazed at how quickly some posters can confidently diagnose the underlying causes while this awful fire is still burning.
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I'd say angry but plausible. There is undoubtedly a large helping of anti-empiricist no-government ideology in the Conservative party. Apart from the bad language, where's the derangement?Richard_Nabavi said:
You sound deranged.RochdalePioneers said:We don't have to vote for misery. The war against dignity has been waged by that fucker Dacre aided and abetted by that fucker Duncan Smith. I don't care about "we can't afford it" arguments - we can't afford NOT to treat people with compassion and dignity because very soon it will be us that are old and ill and demented and I don't want to be treated like shit as this generation has been.
to me its very simple. Too many Conservatives has lost their mind. Utterly disconnected from what this country represents, utterly divorced from understanding of people less fortunate than themselves. Its not the party thats to blame, just the sociopathic wing who preach Christian Values whilst stomping their boot on the throat of the disabled because they're "scroungers".
You sound complacent.0 -
Tim Farron must be kicking himself. If only he had said that gay sex IS a sin, Tezzie would have invited him round to Number 10 to write the Queen's Speech.0
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But Gove told us that we have had enough of experts.TwistedFireStopper said:it is blatantly obvious now that there was never any plan, on any side,as to what to do if Leave won.
Wing it, wins the day...0 -
I'd defer to you on such matters, obviously. There's obviously going to need to be an extremely thorough inquiry.TwistedFireStopper said:
I'm very confident that it will be a number of factors that caused it.AlastairMeeks said:I'm amazed at how quickly some posters can confidently diagnose the underlying causes while this awful fire is still burning.
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That could be overcome by something akin to a duty free allowance.JonCisBack said:
VAT is 20% currently. Even assuming no change in buying habits, it woudl need to go up Waaaaaaay more than to 30% to replace ALL TAXESnigel4england said:OK I have a ridiculous theory, after you have read this you will understand why I only got an O Level pass in economics.
In regard to tax surely the only thing that matters is the tax take, not the tax rate.
I propose to abandon all forms of tax apart from VAT.
Scrap Income tax, corporation tax, NI contributions both employer and employee, maybe not council tax but it would be on the table. All indirect taxation such as P11d, insurance premium tax etc to go as well
Increase VAT to 25%, possibly even 30%, for all apart from those on low incomes/unemployed/disability benefits. This would be easy to do with a simple card, if I can pay for something by waving my phone at a PDQ then this would be easy to implement.
All (well almost all) of that extra money in peoples pockets and on companies bottom line would filter it's way back into the economy, would create more and better paid jobs and allow for better public services. Auto enrolment has ensured companies and employees have to pay into a pension, now they could increase the level of payment so that in years to come the state pension would not be necessary.
I wonder how much tax could be raised by this, more to the point what would the total tax take be? All those billions currently offshore would come back, no more tax dodging, the economy would be awash with money.
I suspect (!) there is an obvious flaw in my plan and no doubt you lot will take great delight in pointing it out to me, but I would vote for me!
Not so much Laffer Curve as Laffer Flatearth!
It would be cheaper to drive to Calais once a month to do grocery shopping in your world. For anyone north of about...oooh...Leeds
Why would you assume no change in buying habits, people would have vast amounts more to spend and would gleefully do so.
Many thanks for the reply though, I am open to a few tweaks before I put it to the country.0 -
And, it took us almost 60 years to pay it off.Malmesbury said:
The post war government was ruthless about cutting spending to try and run a surplus to pay down the debt.Casino_Royale said:
There was an awful lot of austerity after WWII, and rationing of food lasted until the mid-1950s.bigjohnowls said:After WW2 UK debt was 250% of GDP. How did Labour reduce it? By SPENDING on homes, NHS, public services
Austerity doesnt work
Plus Labour had to cut back on the NHS to fund defence.0 -
Do you ever post anything that isn't the latest Momentum soundbite. Come on how about some original thought, not long after WW2 began the long slow decline of the nation anyway, brought to a head in the days you want to go back to the late 70's.bigjohnowls said:After WW2 UK debt was 250% of GDP. How did Labour reduce it? By SPENDING on homes, NHS, public services
Austerity doesnt work0 -
Where such sentiments end is lauding Corbyn as a saint and personally abusing those who disagree as evil.619 said:
Dacre is definitely not doing that. The Tories do enable and play to a feeling that he endengers, and are very much in hoc to him and murdoch's toxic viewpoint.Casino_Royale said:
I think you need to calm down.RochdalePioneers said:
We don't have to vote for misery. The war against dignity has been waged by that fucker Dacre aided and abetted by that fucker Duncan Smith. I don't care about "we can't afford it" arguments - we can't afford NOT to treat people with compassion and dignity because very soon it will be us that are old and ill and demented and I don't want to be treated like shit as this generation has been.TOPPING said:
How else would you describe our political system? We vote for the one we want. Is it a dreadful way to do things? Yep. Is it the least bad of the alternatives? Yep.atia2 said:
This is trivially true. You can close down every policy argument by noting that we chose the current policies. It's not particularly illuminating.TOPPING said:
We choose it @RochdalePioneers. Sorry but we do.RochdalePioneers said:
We can't afford the Fire Brigade. Or Police. Or Hospitals. Or Armed Forces. Or Human Dignity. We have to live within our means. With the emphasis on mean.atia2 said:
Concerning, and not surprising.
First world country?
to me its very simple. Too many Conservatives has lost their mind. Utterly disconnected from what this country represents, utterly divorced from understanding of people less fortunate than themselves. Its not the party thats to blame, just the sociopathic wing who preach Christian Values whilst stomping their boot on the throat of the disabled because they're "scroungers".
Your posts are highly emotional and increasingly irrational. The Conservatives are trying to put the country on a sustainable footing.
Despite his other faults, Corbyn does not play to the tune of Murdoch or Dacre. To his credit.0 -
Potentially. But then every terrorist attack is supposed to be a watershed moment as attitudes stiffen to combat radical Islam. Yet nothing happens. It is hard to shock society these days, new events overtake old events and after the minute silence everyone other than those involved in the tragedy move on to something else.dyedwoolie said:
Tragically it may well be the defining moment that the establishments mistreatment of the people is writ large. Everything that is wrong with the UK in one awful conflagration.GIN1138 said:This tower block fire is going to be very bad for the Conservative government...
Civil unrest a real possibility if criminal negligence by those who should protect us is shown.
Very very dangerous times.
I have relatives coming over to London from Australia for my wedding in a few weeks. As a Londoner I'm embarrassed of how our City appears to the world, and to an extent the country as a whole. What a mess we find ourselves in.0 -
Indeed. I see the UK as being more stable within the EU, less stable on its own. If we pool our resources with the EU we can get economies of scale and consequent cost reductions. Companies and businesses have a more predictable environment and we give foreign companies a reason to invest here because of our language and culture making us an easy gateway to the single market for them.Casino_Royale said:
You didn't get told off, but I did disagree with you.Beverley_C said:
I posted on here yesterday that reducing the armed forces to that needed to defend the UK's waters and airspace could be considered as an option. Oversea military adventures cost a lost of money and a lot of our soldiers get badly injured.Lucian_Fletcher said:
Did we really increase spending compared to paying for a 5million strong Armed Forces and the war economy backing that up?bigjohnowls said:After WW2 UK debt was 250% of GDP. How did Labour reduce it? By SPENDING on homes, NHS, public services
Austerity doesnt work
And rebuilding places reduced to rubble? I'm not sure comparing 2017 to 1945 is all that useful.
In predictable fashion, I got told off for even suggesting it.
Reflecting on your points from yesterday and before, I think the political differences between you and me are now so large as to be unbridgeable.
Shame, but thank you for replying.
On our own we are just a big island with memories of past glory. We may very well become the Argentina of the 21st Century.0 -
I don't disagree.TwistedFireStopper said:
Fires in highrise spread in all sorts of unpredictable ways. It often spreads externally by a blowtorch effect driven by the winds at greater height.Nigelb said:
All true.TwistedFireStopper said:
Refurbs always compromise compartmentation. Fire, like most things in life, takes the path of least resistance. So fire spreads through holes and voids created by retro fitted services.calum said:
However, there is a report in the Guardian of a resident who escaped from the 17th floor, with his 68 year old mother:
“I went back inside the house, looked out the window. I started looking down the window – I had to really pull myself out to look down the window, from the 17th floor, and I see the fire blazing, and coming up really fast, because of the cladding – the cladding was really flammable, and it just caught up like a matchstick.”...
Another resident confirms that there wasn't a building wide fire alarm system:
“We saw the fire engines, so we were looking outside at what’s going on. There was no fire alarms anywhere, because we don’t have a kind of integrated fire system – it’s just everyone’s house for itself..."
Had there been smoke detection on escape routes, and a central fire alarm system, it seems plausible that most people would have got out in time.
Like most great tragedies, it'll be a number of things that add up to make things worse.
My point was rather that a (relatively) cheap improvement to the building's alarm system might have saved scores of lives.
Providing proper fire separation between floors, for example, is likely a much more expensive and difficult project in old housing stock.
That's not to say that this should not also have been done in the recent refurbishment - but that the building appears not to have had an adequate alarm system is inexcusable, and completely separate form any 'resources' argument.0 -
Serious question - What do we spend money on now that wasn't spent on just after the war, as a portion of the overall pie ?0
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I lived in the UK's most phone polled constituency of 2015.AlastairMeeks said:I sometimes wonder about all these pbers who get repeatedly asked to complete opinion polls. I was going to say that I'd never been asked, but in truth no pollster would get as far as asking before being brought to an abrupt halt.
It was fun.0 -
Yep I can see riots by the mistreated populace and riots by people having their Brexit vote's stolen from them.dyedwoolie said:
Tragically it may well be the defining moment that the establishments mistreatment of the people is writ large. Everything that is wrong with the UK in one awful conflagration.GIN1138 said:This tower block fire is going to be very bad for the Conservative government...
Civil unrest a real possibility if criminal negligence by those who should protect us is shown.
Very very dangerous times.
A period of civil unrest does seem very likely.
And then, when people have got their anger our of their system, they will all go out and vote Jezza into Downing St. at the next available opportunity just to punish the establishment on last time.
It's not inconceivable Corbyn could win a landslide at the next election, IMO.0 -
And what a change from 2012 when it was the capital of the world.Brom said:
Potentially. But then every terrorist attack is supposed to be a watershed moment as attitudes stiffen to combat radical Islam. Yet nothing happens. It is hard to shock society these days, new events overtake old events and after the minute silence everyone other than those involved in the tragedy move on to something else.dyedwoolie said:
Tragically it may well be the defining moment that the establishments mistreatment of the people is writ large. Everything that is wrong with the UK in one awful conflagration.GIN1138 said:This tower block fire is going to be very bad for the Conservative government...
Civil unrest a real possibility if criminal negligence by those who should protect us is shown.
Very very dangerous times.
I have relatives coming over to London from Australia for my wedding in a few weeks. As a Londoner I'm embarrassed of how our City appears to the world, and to an extent the country as a whole. What a mess we find ourselves in.0 -
Someone will do well to come up with a crasser partisan point than this today.Scott_P said:
But Gove told us that we have had enough of experts.TwistedFireStopper said:it is blatantly obvious now that there was never any plan, on any side,as to what to do if Leave won.
.
Bremaining Uber Alles.0 -
It depends on your ideology. There are people who'd prefer a tax of 95% on millionaires that raised nothing over a tax of 10% that raised something. The latter would be a tax cut for millionaires.nigel4england said:OK I have a ridiculous theory, after you have read this you will understand why I only got an O Level pass in economics.
In regard to tax surely the only thing that matters is the tax take, not the tax rate.
There are people who'd rather live in a country where everyone had one loaf of bread than in a country where everyone had two loaves apart from one person who has 10.
It is all about the tax rate. If the take falls you just tax the usual suspects again.0 -
And of course VAT is not payable on most groceries.JonCisBack said:
VAT is 20% currently. Even assuming no change in buying habits, it woudl need to go up Waaaaaaay more than to 30% to replace ALL TAXESnigel4england said:OK I have a ridiculous theory, after you have read this you will understand why I only got an O Level pass in economics.
In regard to tax surely the only thing that matters is the tax take, not the tax rate.
I propose to abandon all forms of tax apart from VAT.
Scrap Income tax, corporation tax, NI contributions both employer and employee, maybe not council tax but it would be on the table. All indirect taxation such as P11d, insurance premium tax etc to go as well
Increase VAT to 25%, possibly even 30%, for all apart from those on low incomes/unemployed/disability benefits. This would be easy to do with a simple card, if I can pay for something by waving my phone at a PDQ then this would be easy to implement.
All (well almost all) of that extra money in peoples pockets and on companies bottom line would filter it's way back into the economy, would create more and better paid jobs and allow for better public services. Auto enrolment has ensured companies and employees have to pay into a pension, now they could increase the level of payment so that in years to come the state pension would not be necessary.
I wonder how much tax could be raised by this, more to the point what would the total tax take be? All those billions currently offshore would come back, no more tax dodging, the economy would be awash with money.
I suspect (!) there is an obvious flaw in my plan and no doubt you lot will take great delight in pointing it out to me, but I would vote for me!
Not so much Laffer Curve as Laffer Flatearth!
It would be cheaper to drive to Calais once a month to do grocery shopping in your world. For anyone north of about...oooh...Leeds0 -
Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dog Farage?David_Evershed said:
Unleash the Farage.Scott_P said:
That's the killer line.FF43 said:The logic of less Brexit being good is that no Brexit is even better.
It was always true that no Brexit is better than any Brexit, but the headbangers wanted it anyway.
Meanwhile, Farage is apparently unhappy about the current state of Brexit.
Shame.
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The country is ungovernable, I think.0
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We are going through the event horizon of Brexit at the moment. The worst point, and the time of maximum uncertainty. Hence the feverish lobbying.TwistedFireStopper said:
Roger, it grieves me immensely, but I'm coming round to the idea that Brexit is going to turn into a clusterfuck.Roger said:"first brexit sowed division then it made it ungovernable"
New York Times.
I still believe it would have been the right thing for us, full EU was never a good fit for us, but due to the sheer incompetence of politicians on all sides, it's just undeliverable. We're governed by aresholes.
But, I agree the GE result has made things much more complicated.
It's clear to me what the sensible thing to do is, but it's not clear to me if there are sensible people on both UK and EU sides willing to do it, rather than score points.0 -
60 years took us back to the level before WWI in GDP terms. The WWII debt spike was (in GDP terms) dealt with by the mid-50sCasino_Royale said:
And, it took us almost 60 years to pay it off.Malmesbury said:
The post war government was ruthless about cutting spending to try and run a surplus to pay down the debt.Casino_Royale said:
There was an awful lot of austerity after WWII, and rationing of food lasted until the mid-1950s.bigjohnowls said:After WW2 UK debt was 250% of GDP. How did Labour reduce it? By SPENDING on homes, NHS, public services
Austerity doesnt work
Plus Labour had to cut back on the NHS to fund defence.0 -
Agree entirely. I'll be one of those voting for him. The establishment needs to be dismantled, greed needs to be punished and society renewed.GIN1138 said:
Yep I can see riots by the mistreated populace and riots by people having their Brexit vote's stolen from them.dyedwoolie said:
Tragically it may well be the defining moment that the establishments mistreatment of the people is writ large. Everything that is wrong with the UK in one awful conflagration.GIN1138 said:This tower block fire is going to be very bad for the Conservative government...
Civil unrest a real possibility if criminal negligence by those who should protect us is shown.
Very very dangerous times.
A period of civil unrest does seem very likely.
And then, when people have got their anger our of their system, they will all go out and vote Jezza into Downing St. at the next available opportunity just to punish the establishment on last time.0 -
...the devastation of NI business.JonCisBack said:
VAT is 20% currently. Even assuming no change in buying habits, it woudl need to go up Waaaaaaay more than to 30% to replace ALL TAXESnigel4england said:OK I have a ridiculous theory, after you have read this you will understand why I only got an O Level pass in economics.
In regard to tax surely the only thing that matters is the tax take, not the tax rate.
I propose to abandon all forms of tax apart from VAT.
Scrap Income tax, corporation tax, NI contributions both employer and employee, maybe not council tax but it would be on the table. All indirect taxation such as P11d, insurance premium tax etc to go as well
Increase VAT to 25%, possibly even 30%, for all apart from those on low incomes/unemployed/disability benefits. This would be easy to do with a simple card, if I can pay for something by waving my phone at a PDQ then this would be easy to implement.
All (well almost all) of that extra money in peoples pockets and on companies bottom line would filter it's way back into the economy, would create more and better paid jobs and allow for better public services. Auto enrolment has ensured companies and employees have to pay into a pension, now they could increase the level of payment so that in years to come the state pension would not be necessary.
I wonder how much tax could be raised by this, more to the point what would the total tax take be? All those billions currently offshore would come back, no more tax dodging, the economy would be awash with money.
I suspect (!) there is an obvious flaw in my plan and no doubt you lot will take great delight in pointing it out to me, but I would vote for me!
Not so much Laffer Curve as Laffer Flatearth!
It would be cheaper to drive to Calais once a month to do grocery shopping in your world. For anyone north of about...oooh...Leeds0 -
Clearing is not what you think it isHertsmere_Pubgoer said:
So can the EU also stop € clearing in say New York?TheScreamingEagles said:
Their currency, their rules.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 43, I appreciate that post but still fail to see why/how the EU could force business closures or movement.
Mr. Bobajob, could you elaborate further please?
As long as we were part of the EU it wasn't a problem for them.
I'm on my phone, and this is a complex subject, so I will write properly later.0 -
I agree entirely. Compartmentation is key once a fire starts, but early warning and fire suppression is far more effective. Refurbs in older properties are expensive, and corners get cut and workmen get lazy and complacent.Nigelb said:
I don't disagree.TwistedFireStopper said:
Fires in highrise spread in all sorts of unpredictable ways. It often spreads externally by a blowtorch effect driven by the winds at greater height.Nigelb said:
All true.TwistedFireStopper said:
Refurbs always compromise compartmentation. Fire, like most things in life, takes the path of least resistance. So fire spreads through holes and voids created by retro fitted services.calum said:
However, there is a report in the Guardian of a resident who escaped from the 17th floor, with his 68 year old mother:
“I went back inside the house, looked out the window. I started looking down the window – I had to really pull myself out to look down the window, from the 17th floor, and I see the fire blazing, and coming up really fast, because of the cladding – the cladding was really flammable, and it just caught up like a matchstick.”...
Another resident confirms that there wasn't a building wide fire alarm system:
“We saw the fire engines, so we were looking outside at what’s going on. There was no fire alarms anywhere, because we don’t have a kind of integrated fire system – it’s just everyone’s house for itself..."
Had there been smoke detection on escape routes, and a central fire alarm system, it seems plausible that most people would have got out in time.
Like most great tragedies, it'll be a number of things that add up to make things worse.
My point was rather that a (relatively) cheap improvement to the building's alarm system might have saved scores of lives.
Providing proper fire separation between floors, for example, is likely a much more expensive and difficult project in old housing stock.
That's not to say that this should not also have been done in the recent refurbishment - but that the building appears not to have had an adequate alarm system is inexcusable, and completely separate form any 'resources' argument.0 -
6 fatalities confirmed, number expected to rise.0
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It is becoming inconceivable Corbyn could not win a landslide at the next election.GIN1138 said:... It's [not] inconceivable Corbyn could win a landslide at the next election, IMO.
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The derangement is, for example, in the phrase stomping their boot on the throat of the disabled because they're "scroungers" . This is not only extremely offensive about people who are sincerely trying too do their best for the whole country in difficult circumstances, it's also completely bonkers. It's the kind of thing that the loonier commentatiors in the Guardian to each other say in a kind of echo chamber. I expect Rochdale actually believes that senior Conservative politicians go on about 'scroungers'.atia2 said:
I'd say angry but plausible. There is undoubtedly a large helping of anti-empiricist no-government ideology in the Conservative party. Apart from the bad language, where's the derangement?Richard_Nabavi said:
You sound deranged.RochdalePioneers said:We don't have to vote for misery. The war against dignity has been waged by that fucker Dacre aided and abetted by that fucker Duncan Smith. I don't care about "we can't afford it" arguments - we can't afford NOT to treat people with compassion and dignity because very soon it will be us that are old and ill and demented and I don't want to be treated like shit as this generation has been.
to me its very simple. Too many Conservatives has lost their mind. Utterly disconnected from what this country represents, utterly divorced from understanding of people less fortunate than themselves. Its not the party thats to blame, just the sociopathic wing who preach Christian Values whilst stomping their boot on the throat of the disabled because they're "scroungers".
You sound complacent.0 -
It seems risky having so many politically engaged people in your polls, but on the other hand I wonder if PB overall is relatively representative of the country even if we are all anoraks. PB seems to have slight over representation of LDs, and also had an over representation of brexiteers for EUref, but otherwise seems pretty balanced.AlastairMeeks said:I sometimes wonder about all these pbers who get repeatedly asked to complete opinion polls. I was going to say that I'd never been asked, but in truth no pollster would get as far as asking before being brought to an abrupt halt.
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I don't want to score points. I am genuinely baffled by how so many intelligent people fail to see obvious clusterfucks coming their way. Brexit is the same as Iraq. It was clear from the off they were both going to be fiascos. No special insight or knowledge required. Simply if people put forward projects on demonstrably false premises, it's not going to turn out well.TwistedFireStopper said:
Roger, it grieves me immensely, but I'm coming round to the idea that Brexit is going to turn into a clusterfuck.Roger said:"first brexit sowed division then it made it ungovernable"
New York Times.
I still believe it would have been the right thing for us, full EU was never a good fit for us, but due to the sheer incompetence of politicians on all sides, it's just undeliverable. We're governed by aresholes.
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These are also perhaps pertinent...
http://www.kctmo.org.uk/files/board-meetings/164740_board_meeting_-_24_meeting_2016.pdf
The programme of Fire Risk Assessments and reviews continued and substantial progress has been made with completing the actions and recommendations from the assessments.
Regular LFB and KCTMO meetings have continued. Standard agenda items include any fires in the stock and any action that can be taken to prevent recurrence, false alarms and LFB attendance at lift shut-ins.

Grenfell Tower refurbishment – close liaison with LFB and Fire Risk Assessor throughout the duration of the project. At the conclusion of the work some of the operational firefighters from the local Fire Station attended an onsite briefing where the contractor demonstrated the fire safety features of the building.
There is ongoing work with LFB to ensure remaining high rise blocks are prioritised for familiarisation visits and where possible Home Fire Safety Visits are offered.
We have provided a range of ongoing publicity to residents, particularly in relation to:
the “stay put” fire strategy and procedures residents should follow in event of a fire in their flat or elsewhere in their block, and;
informing leaseholders about the fire safety standards required of their flat entrance doors (existing and any planned replacement)
http://www.kctmo.org.uk/files/board-meetings/153818_board_pack_-_20_july_2016.pdf
Grenfell Tower Regeneration
The regeneration of Grenfell Tower is complete except for the final piece of environmental work around the block. The work has delivered:
New controllable communal heating to 120 flats (with individual control)
New double glazed windows
Thermal overcladding
…
The Health & Safety Action Plan will be reviewed and extended to incorporate any new areas where monitoring of compliance with legislation and good practice is required. Specifically –
Annual H&S report to be produced
…
The programme of Fire Risk Assessments & reviews to continue and more work to ensure actions and recommendations from these are consistently completed
in a timely manner
Regular LFB liaison meetings. Extend fire safety approach adopted at Grenfell
Tower to all major works projects - proactive involvement of LFB etc.
Work with LFB to ensure remaining high rise blocks are prioritised for
familiarisation visits and where possible Home Fire Safety Visits are offered
Ongoing publicity etc. to ensure leaseholders continue to ensure any door
replacement is with compliant door
Investigate introduction of on-line DSE training & self-assessment…
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Labour GAIN Chelsea and Fulham.Beverley_C said:
It is becoming inconceivable Corbyn could not win a landslide at the next election.GIN1138 said:... It's [not] inconceivable Corbyn could win a landslide at the next election, IMO.
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Sadly if enough people like yourself take the easy solution to dealing with complex problems then nothing will change. We need effective politicians to wake up and implement change not hopeless figures of protest.dyedwoolie said:
Agree entirely. I'll be one of those voting for him. The establishment needs to be dismantled, greed needs to be punished and society renewed.GIN1138 said:
Yep I can see riots by the mistreated populace and riots by people having their Brexit vote's stolen from them.dyedwoolie said:
Tragically it may well be the defining moment that the establishments mistreatment of the people is writ large. Everything that is wrong with the UK in one awful conflagration.GIN1138 said:This tower block fire is going to be very bad for the Conservative government...
Civil unrest a real possibility if criminal negligence by those who should protect us is shown.
Very very dangerous times.
A period of civil unrest does seem very likely.
And then, when people have got their anger our of their system, they will all go out and vote Jezza into Downing St. at the next available opportunity just to punish the establishment on last time.0 -
To be even more cynical, until things become clearer, I'd stay out of any betting markets involving Boris or Sadiq, the former and current mayors of London. Meanwhile we can only hope for successful rescues.AlastairMeeks said:I'm amazed at how quickly some posters can confidently diagnose the underlying causes while this awful fire is still burning.
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I think we'll have a Labour government by Christmas. Given that we are nowhere near fixing the harm the last one did, and the next one thinks we need more debt and more taxes, I think that really is then curtains.GIN1138 said:
Yep I can see riots by the mistreated populace and riots by people having their Brexit vote's stolen from them.dyedwoolie said:
Tragically it may well be the defining moment that the establishments mistreatment of the people is writ large. Everything that is wrong with the UK in one awful conflagration.GIN1138 said:This tower block fire is going to be very bad for the Conservative government...
Civil unrest a real possibility if criminal negligence by those who should protect us is shown.
Very very dangerous times.
A period of civil unrest does seem very likely.
And then, when people have got their anger our of their system, they will all go out and vote Jezza into Downing St. at the next available opportunity just to punish the establishment on last time.
It's not inconceivable Corbyn could win a landslide at the next election, IMO.0 -
But that's sort of meaningless when most people alive at the time would have found life very "austere".Malmesbury said:
The post war Labour government ran surpluses from 1947.glw said:
Rationing didn't even end until the 1950s. The idea that the post-war years were anything other than bloody hard is ludicrous.David_Evershed said:bigjohnowls said:After WW2 UK debt was 250% of GDP. How did Labour reduce it? By SPENDING on homes, NHS, public services
Austerity doesnt work
Things were (rightly) very austere in the 1940s under Labour.
We didn't waste money on things like Starbucks or eating out. Make do and mend era.0 -
Yeah but predicting 2022 with certainty seems "optimistic"Beverley_C said:
It is becoming inconceivable Corbyn could not win a landslide at the next election.GIN1138 said:... It's [not] inconceivable Corbyn could win a landslide at the next election, IMO.
0 -
There's actually quite a lot of VAT on food. Any preparation is VATable so there is VAT on ready meals.nigel4england said:
And of course VAT is not payable on most groceries.JonCisBack said:
VAT is 20% currently. Even assuming no change in buying habits, it woudl need to go up Waaaaaaay more than to 30% to replace ALL TAXESnigel4england said:OK I have a ridiculous theory, after you have read this you will understand why I only got an O Level pass in economics.
In regard to tax surely the only thing that matters is the tax take, not the tax rate.
I propose to abandon all forms of tax apart from VAT.
Scrap Income tax, corporation tax, NI contributions both employer and employee, maybe not council tax but it would be on the table. All indirect taxation such as P11d, insurance premium tax etc to go as well
Increase VAT to 25%, possibly even 30%, for all apart from those on low incomes/unemployed/disability benefits. This would be easy to do with a simple card, if I can pay for something by waving my phone at a PDQ then this would be easy to implement.
All (well almost all) of that extra money in peoples pockets and on companies bottom line would filter it's way back into the economy, would create more and better paid jobs and allow for better public services. Auto enrolment has ensured companies and employees have to pay into a pension, now they could increase the level of payment so that in years to come the state pension would not be necessary.
I wonder how much tax could be raised by this, more to the point what would the total tax take be? All those billions currently offshore would come back, no more tax dodging, the economy would be awash with money.
I suspect (!) there is an obvious flaw in my plan and no doubt you lot will take great delight in pointing it out to me, but I would vote for me!
Not so much Laffer Curve as Laffer Flatearth!
It would be cheaper to drive to Calais once a month to do grocery shopping in your world. For anyone north of about...oooh...Leeds0 -
For 50 odd years the public have wanted controls on immigration while governments of all stripes have increased it. Then they got a referendum on itFF43 said:
I don't want to score points. I am genuinely baffled by how so many intelligent people fail to see obvious clusterfucks coming their way. Brexit is the same as Iraq. It was clear from the off they were both going to be fiascos. No special insight or knowledge required. Simply if people put forward projects on demonstrably false premises, it's not going to turn out well.TwistedFireStopper said:
Roger, it grieves me immensely, but I'm coming round to the idea that Brexit is going to turn into a clusterfuck.Roger said:"first brexit sowed division then it made it ungovernable"
New York Times.
I still believe it would have been the right thing for us, full EU was never a good fit for us, but due to the sheer incompetence of politicians on all sides, it's just undeliverable. We're governed by aresholes.
The fault lies with the politicians who refused to listen. If you keep having to ask someone to stop flicking your ear, eventually you have to hit them0 -
Mr. Eagles, I can see why the EU would want euro derivatives to be traded in Euroland. I'm still unclear as to any actual authority they have to interfere with British businesses operating in Britain, though.0
-
It didn't have to be like this. It's only the stupidity and greed of the political class from Blair on that has brought us to this point.Alice_Aforethought said:The country is ungovernable, I think.
If it turns out people have died in a tower block inferno because we can't afford to fit sprinklers yet we can find money for any number of pointless government pet projects the anger is going to be quite something to witness.0 -
This fire is going to have some long term consequences, it is highlighting the condition and management of social housing and the over riding sense of injustice. It is also provding the racists an opportunity to try and capitalise on the situation. There will be an extensive enquiry which hopefully will identify the causes and if blame is neccesary apportion blame.
I0 -
Laughable. Won't he be around 72 in 2022? People predicting next month have no idea let alone landslides potentially years down the line.Beverley_C said:
It is becoming inconceivable Corbyn could not win a landslide at the next election.GIN1138 said:... It's [not] inconceivable Corbyn could win a landslide at the next election, IMO.
0 -
Robert, can you reply to my email please and send me your bank details.rcs1000 said:
Clearing is not what you think it isHertsmere_Pubgoer said:
So can the EU also stop € clearing in say New York?TheScreamingEagles said:
Their currency, their rules.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 43, I appreciate that post but still fail to see why/how the EU could force business closures or movement.
Mr. Bobajob, could you elaborate further please?
As long as we were part of the EU it wasn't a problem for them.
I'm on my phone, and this is a complex subject, so I will write properly later.0 -
Why thankyouTGOHF said:Someone will do well to come up with a crasser partisan point than this today.
The original point was that Leave had no plan.
Not only did they have no plan, they revelled in it! Plans are for losers...
Even now, AA Gill remains the most astute commentator on this
Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”
When the rest of us ask how that’s really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that “they’re going to still really fancy us, honest, they’re gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can’t get enough of old John Bull. Of course they’re going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we’ve got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn’t it?”0 -
I think several posters here could do with a decent holiday.0 -
It didn't have to be a clusterfuck. It just needed semi competent politicians on all sides working out what was best. That is clearly naive thinking, I know, but was it really wrong to think that our elected politicians were not this bad?FF43 said:
I don't want to score points. I am genuinely baffled by how so many intelligent people fail to see obvious clusterfucks coming their way. Brexit is the same as Iraq. It was clear from the off they were both going to be fiascos. No special insight or knowledge required. Simply if people put forward projects on demonstrably false premises, it's not going to turn out well.TwistedFireStopper said:
Roger, it grieves me immensely, but I'm coming round to the idea that Brexit is going to turn into a clusterfuck.Roger said:"first brexit sowed division then it made it ungovernable"
New York Times.
I still believe it would have been the right thing for us, full EU was never a good fit for us, but due to the sheer incompetence of politicians on all sides, it's just undeliverable. We're governed by aresholes.0 -
I guess that euro clearing needs a high degree of confidence in euro banks?0
-
Indeed. Predicting what will happen in 6 months looks tricky to me.TGOHF said:
Yeah but predicting 2022 with certainty seems "optimistic"Beverley_C said:
It is becoming inconceivable Corbyn could not win a landslide at the next election.GIN1138 said:... It's [not] inconceivable Corbyn could win a landslide at the next election, IMO.
0 -
Indeed. And you can bet that if PB'ers are starting to realise, then a lot of ordinary people are as well.FF43 said:
I don't want to score points. I am genuinely baffled by how so many intelligent people fail to see obvious clusterfucks coming their way. Brexit is the same as Iraq. It was clear from the off they were both going to be fiascos. No special insight or knowledge required. Simply if people put forward projects on demonstrably false premises, it's not going to turn out well.TwistedFireStopper said:
Roger, it grieves me immensely, but I'm coming round to the idea that Brexit is going to turn into a clusterfuck.Roger said:"first brexit sowed division then it made it ungovernable"
New York Times.
I still believe it would have been the right thing for us, full EU was never a good fit for us, but due to the sheer incompetence of politicians on all sides, it's just undeliverable. We're governed by aresholes.
Brexit is now tied inseparably to the Tory party, such that as the new government's fortunes inevitably decline, so will the popularity of Brexit.
You can still get 3/1 on a second EU ref with Betfair. There's just a question over its definition of an "in/out referendum", since what I would expect is a bad deal/no deal Brexit as one option and status quo as the other. This is effectively in/out and I would hope Betfair would agree?0 -
dyedwoolie said:
Agree entirely. I'll be one of those voting for him. The establishment needs to be dismantled, greed needs to be punished and society renewed.GIN1138 said:
Yep I can see riots by the mistreated populace and riots by people having their Brexit vote's stolen from them.dyedwoolie said:
Tragically it may well be the defining moment that the establishments mistreatment of the people is writ large. Everything that is wrong with the UK in one awful conflagration.GIN1138 said:This tower block fire is going to be very bad for the Conservative government...
Civil unrest a real possibility if criminal negligence by those who should protect us is shown.
Very very dangerous times.
A period of civil unrest does seem very likely.
And then, when people have got their anger our of their system, they will all go out and vote Jezza into Downing St. at the next available opportunity just to punish the establishment on last time.
Various countries have ably demonstrated that communism doesn't work.0 -
Not quite correct. Things can change; there's no complex problem which can't be made worse, and the Labour manifesto is a blueprint for how to go about it.Brom said:Sadly if enough people like yourself take the easy solution to dealing with complex problems then nothing will change.
0 -
They want to take back control.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, I can see why the EU would want euro derivatives to be traded in Euroland. I'm still unclear as to any actual authority they have to interfere with British businesses operating in Britain, though.
0 -
Just a tad older than Trump....Brom said:
Laughable. Won't he be around 72 in 2022? People predicting next month have no idea let alone landslides potentially years down the line.Beverley_C said:
It is becoming inconceivable Corbyn could not win a landslide at the next election.GIN1138 said:... It's [not] inconceivable Corbyn could win a landslide at the next election, IMO.
0 -
It's nice to see some cool heads giving a rational and measured appraisal of events today.....GIN1138 said:
Yep I can see riots by the mistreated populace and riots by people having their Brexit vote's stolen from them.dyedwoolie said:
Tragically it may well be the defining moment that the establishments mistreatment of the people is writ large. Everything that is wrong with the UK in one awful conflagration.GIN1138 said:This tower block fire is going to be very bad for the Conservative government...
Civil unrest a real possibility if criminal negligence by those who should protect us is shown.
Very very dangerous times.
A period of civil unrest does seem very likely.
And then, when people have got their anger our of their system, they will all go out and vote Jezza into Downing St. at the next available opportunity just to punish the establishment on last time.
It's not inconceivable Corbyn could win a landslide at the next election, IMO.0 -
It also focussed industrial policy very much on exports, to the point of depriving locals. It was balance of payments that was considered the big economic indicator.Malmesbury said:
The post war government was ruthless about cutting spending to try and run a surplus to pay down the debt.Casino_Royale said:
There was an awful lot of austerity after WWII, and rationing of food lasted until the mid-1950s.bigjohnowls said:After WW2 UK debt was 250% of GDP. How did Labour reduce it? By SPENDING on homes, NHS, public services
Austerity doesnt work
Plus Labour had to cut back on the NHS to fund defence.0 -
I'm quite prepared to admit that my theory is very similar to the Tory manifesto, in that it has not been fully costed nor thought through properly.Alice_Aforethought said:
There's actually quite a lot of VAT on food. Any preparation is VATable so there is VAT on ready meals.nigel4england said:
And of course VAT is not payable on most groceries.JonCisBack said:
VAT is 20% currently. Even assuming no change in buying habits, it woudl need to go up Waaaaaaay more than to 30% to replace ALL TAXESnigel4england said:OK I have a ridiculous theory, after you have read this you will understand why I only got an O Level pass in economics.
In regard to tax surely the only thing that matters is the tax take, not the tax rate.
I propose to abandon all forms of tax apart from VAT.
Scrap Income tax, corporation tax, NI contributions both employer and employee, maybe not council tax but it would be on the table. All indirect taxation such as P11d, insurance premium tax etc to go as well
Increase VAT to 25%, possibly even 30%, for all apart from those on low incomes/unemployed/disability benefits. This would be easy to do with a simple card, if I can pay for something by waving my phone at a PDQ then this would be easy to implement.
All (well almost all) of that extra money in peoples pockets and on companies bottom line would filter it's way back into the economy, would create more and better paid jobs and allow for better public services. Auto enrolment has ensured companies and employees have to pay into a pension, now they could increase the level of payment so that in years to come the state pension would not be necessary.
I wonder how much tax could be raised by this, more to the point what would the total tax take be? All those billions currently offshore would come back, no more tax dodging, the economy would be awash with money.
I suspect (!) there is an obvious flaw in my plan and no doubt you lot will take great delight in pointing it out to me, but I would vote for me!
Not so much Laffer Curve as Laffer Flatearth!
It would be cheaper to drive to Calais once a month to do grocery shopping in your world. For anyone north of about...oooh...Leeds0 -
ThanksTwistedFireStopper said:
There is no arguing that calls have gone down. Cars are safer, smoke detectors are an amazing invention, building regs(when adhered to!) are more stringent, and fire control call handling cuts the number of times we turn out to false alarms. So we don't turn out as often as we used to, but a house fire is still a house fire, and you still need boots on the ground to do search and rescue, put the fire out and have control of the incident. We don't have the boots on the ground anymore, so a crew of 4 take risks and cut corners on procedures while waiting for the cavalry to turn up. I've been in that situation constantly for the past 5 years.TOPPING said:
Thanks - tell me also, we hear re. the police (and some MPS senior figures will agree) that efficiency has gone up and that increased numbers don't mean more crime solved, and vice versa, lower numbers don't necessarily mean more crime.TwistedFireStopper said:
Nationwide, local county fire services are stretched pretty thin. Loughborough, a large market town, large university, fast road network, industrial, and with a large area of surrounding villages now has just one fire engine with 4 crew on it. You're waiting for appliances from other towns or Leicester City. When I worked at Loughborough, there were 2 fire engines with at least nine crew between them. It just isn't enough to do the job safely and to the required operating procedures, so firefighters take risks and cut corners to get the job done. So far we've been lucky, but we won't always be.TOPPING said:
Thanks. Could you explain your previous comment that LFB had plenty of resources? Or do you mean in general resources are stretched nationwide?TwistedFireStopper said:
Because it is true.LadyBucket said:
I'glw said:
Cuts is a bit of an odd one seeing as the building has just been refurbished and almost certainly went through some rigorous planning and inspection. Regulations are more plausible, it will be interesting to see if the cladding is a problem and why. One thing that has long concerned me is knock-off parts and material in the supply chains of a lot of industries, it is increasingly difficult to be sure what you are buying is what is claims to be.TOPPING said:Many political views on the fire on twitter mainly centring around Tory cuts and lax regulations for their (the Tories') landlord friends.
Is there the same kind of dynamic in the fire service? Or can you simply only respond to half as many incidents as previously when there were two fire engines? And are there often two simultaneous incidents?0 -
I disagree. The answer is simple. Take back the wealth stolen from the public. Private greed must ease public debt. Why should we continue to grub around like dogs whilst those at the upper end Swan off on more holidays and take their wealth into offshore havens? Maximum wage, wealth tax, universal income and tax set annually to meet services required. Start living as a society, not as a corporation.Brom said:
Sadly if enough people like yourself take the easy solution to dealing with complex problems then nothing will change. We need effective politicians to wake up and implement change not hopeless figures of protest.dyedwoolie said:
Agree entirely. I'll be one of those voting for him. The establishment needs to be dismantled, greed needs to be punished and society renewed.GIN1138 said:
Yep I can see riots by the mistreated populace and riots by people having their Brexit vote's stolen from them.dyedwoolie said:
Tragically it may well be the defining moment that the establishments mistreatment of the people is writ large. Everything that is wrong with the UK in one awful conflagration.GIN1138 said:This tower block fire is going to be very bad for the Conservative government...
Civil unrest a real possibility if criminal negligence by those who should protect us is shown.
Very very dangerous times.
A period of civil unrest does seem very likely.
And then, when people have got their anger our of their system, they will all go out and vote Jezza into Downing St. at the next available opportunity just to punish the establishment on last time.0 -
Thank you, I will defer to your far superior knowledge on this.rcs1000 said:
Clearing is not what you think it isHertsmere_Pubgoer said:
So can the EU also stop € clearing in say New York?TheScreamingEagles said:
Their currency, their rules.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 43, I appreciate that post but still fail to see why/how the EU could force business closures or movement.
Mr. Bobajob, could you elaborate further please?
As long as we were part of the EU it wasn't a problem for them.
I'm on my phone, and this is a complex subject, so I will write properly later.
I recall reading something a few weeks ago (possible City AM or similar) that said the EU could only really impose this on European banks.
0 -
I did wonder where Ceausescu got the idea fromfoxinsoxuk said:
It also focussed industrial policy very much on exports, to the point of depriving locals. It was balance of payments that was considered the big economic indicator.Malmesbury said:
The post war government was ruthless about cutting spending to try and run a surplus to pay down the debt.Casino_Royale said:
There was an awful lot of austerity after WWII, and rationing of food lasted until the mid-1950s.bigjohnowls said:After WW2 UK debt was 250% of GDP. How did Labour reduce it? By SPENDING on homes, NHS, public services
Austerity doesnt work
Plus Labour had to cut back on the NHS to fund defence.0 -
But also with 7 years as leader people have more chance to realise he's not the messiah. Trump took his window of opportunity, Corbyn has possibly narrowly missed his.Nigelb said:
Just a tad older than Trump....Brom said:
Laughable. Won't he be around 72 in 2022? People predicting next month have no idea let alone landslides potentially years down the line.Beverley_C said:
It is becoming inconceivable Corbyn could not win a landslide at the next election.GIN1138 said:... It's [not] inconceivable Corbyn could win a landslide at the next election, IMO.
0 -
I predict some extreme shrieking and intense butthurt as the realisation slowly dawns on some that Labour lost, Brexit is still happening and that there wont be an election for a fair while..Jason said:
It's nice to see some cool heads giving a rational and measured appraisal of events today.....GIN1138 said:
Yep I can see riots by the mistreated populace and riots by people having their Brexit vote's stolen from them.dyedwoolie said:
Tragically it may well be the defining moment that the establishments mistreatment of the people is writ large. Everything that is wrong with the UK in one awful conflagration.GIN1138 said:This tower block fire is going to be very bad for the Conservative government...
Civil unrest a real possibility if criminal negligence by those who should protect us is shown.
Very very dangerous times.
A period of civil unrest does seem very likely.
And then, when people have got their anger our of their system, they will all go out and vote Jezza into Downing St. at the next available opportunity just to punish the establishment on last time.
It's not inconceivable Corbyn could win a landslide at the next election, IMO.0 -
Half as many as could do with a decent government.Sean_F said:
I think several posters here could do with a decent holiday.0 -
Companies like Starbucks that use legal mechanisms to minimise their tax obligations are taking the p1ss. They have forgotten they have an obligation to stakeholders, not just to shareholders.RochdalePioneers said:
We need to cut the deficit. To do that we need to expand the economy. To do that we need to invest in the things that will allow it to expand.Charles said:
So you'd be up for a zero based budgeting approach?RochdalePioneers said:
We don't have to vote for misery. The war against dignity has been waged by that fucker Dacre aided and abetted by that fucker Duncan Smith. I don't care about "we can't afford it" arguments - we can't afford NOT to treat people with compassion and dignity because very soon it will be us that are old and ill and demented and I don't want to be treated like shit as this generation has been.
to me its very simple. Too many Conservatives has lost their mind. Utterly disconnected from what this country represents, utterly divorced from understanding of people less fortunate than themselves. Its not the party thats to blame, just the sociopathic wing who preach Christian Values whilst stomping their boot on the throat of the disabled because they're "scroungers".
The fundamental issue is that a wealthy country such as the UK *should* be able to provide a decent support network for those who are less fortunate. This should be entirely possible with the current resources that the government has.
There is a vast amount of money wasted, too many vested interested and it's only the "easy" stuff that gets cut.
Let me give you a direct example of what I would do. The Tories have slashed Corporation Tax to an absurdly low level but have done nothing to get tax-dodging outfits like Starfucks paying both their taxes and their employees a wage they can afford to live on.
As a radical alternative, offer Corporation Tax cuts to companies who pay their dues and who pay the living wage to their workers. Because if you want people spending £5 on coffee they need money in their pockets which they won't have if you pay them £7.50 an hour. We need to encourage these businesses to become citizens as well as corporations. As big capitalists of the past have been. Even Henry Ford got that to sell cars people have to be bale to afford them.
Capitalism was replaced by bankism. We need it back.
Most companies are not like that, and steps are being taken to tighten up on those that are, but it's a slow and ardous process, not helped by couldtries like Luxembourg and their swiving scheming former prime minister. I forget what he is up to now.0 -
Jezza is in rude health, and no way will this government survive 5 years.Brom said:
Laughable. Won't he be around 72 in 2022? People predicting next month have no idea let alone landslides potentially years down the line.Beverley_C said:
It is becoming inconceivable Corbyn could not win a landslide at the next election.GIN1138 said:... It's [not] inconceivable Corbyn could win a landslide at the next election, IMO.
0 -
Mr. Eagles, very droll, but it's not a legal basis for action.0
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We massively overspend already, everybody feels entitled to more stuff and further feels entitled to have someone else pay for it, and there is no acknowledgement that some things are now simply unaffordable. More and more things will become so.GIN1138 said:
It didn't have to be like this. It's only the stupidity and greed of the political class from Blair on that has brought us to this point.Alice_Aforethought said:The country is ungovernable, I think.
If it turns out people have died in a tower block inferno because we can't afford to fit sprinklers yet we can find money for any number of pointless government pet projects the anger is going to be quite something to witness.
We're ungovernable. There's no path back to a government surplus and to a shrinking debt. If you propose any you lose elections. You can only win by promising Peter you'll rob Paul because Paul's filth anyway and he deserves it.0 -
TheScreamingEagles - they would have control if they took steps to put EU banks on a firm footing?0
-
LOL!dyedwoolie said:
Half as many as could do with a decent government.Sean_F said:
I think several posters here could do with a decent holiday. 0 -
I made a lot of money on Brexit which was equal parts @Andy_JS and equal parts a hedge against shareprice/currency moves. I made money on Trump because I thought the US was in the mood, and that also informed my Lab OM bet: I thought "here we go again", even though the maths were bonkers for it.Pulpstar said:@Topping What lead you to back OM ?
& Are you up long term on political bets ?
It wasn't impossible to see Overall Maj, but I'd like to know the reasoning through the fog of war so to speak.
I shifted onto it on the night personally, this graph gave me food for thought:
http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2017-united-kingdom-general-election
In short I'd like to know if people spotted it through luck or reasoning.0 -
Big Jez is a cyclist, nonsmoker, healthy eater (he's a vegetarian) and doesn't drink much (he's not actually a teetotaller as some sources say but is only a light drinker). As you say, he is in very good shape.foxinsoxuk said:
Jezza is in rude health, and no way will this government survive 5 years.Brom said:
Laughable. Won't he be around 72 in 2022? People predicting next month have no idea let alone landslides potentially years down the line.Beverley_C said:
It is becoming inconceivable Corbyn could not win a landslide at the next election.GIN1138 said:... It's [not] inconceivable Corbyn could win a landslide at the next election, IMO.
0 -
Lots of people were certain that the coalition of 2010 would not last.foxinsoxuk said:Jezza is in rude health, and no way will this government survive 5 years.
0 -
AFAIK Costa (Whitbread) pay their taxes, use them instead of Starbucks.Charles said:
Companies like Starbucks that use legal mechanisms to minimise their tax obligations are taking the p1ss. They have forgotten they have an obligation to stakeholders, not just to shareholders.RochdalePioneers said:
We need to cut the deficit. To do that we need to expand the economy. To do that we need to invest in the things that will allow it to expand.Charles said:
So you'd be up for a zero based budgeting approach?RochdalePioneers said:
We don't have to vote for misery. The war against dignity has been waged by that fucker Dacre aided and abetted by that fucker Duncan Smith. I don't care about "we can't afford it" arguments - we can't afford NOT to treat people with compassion and dignity because very soon it will be us that are old and ill and demented and I don't want to be treated like shit as this generation has been.
to me its very simple. Too many Conservatives has lost their mind. Utterly disconnected from what this country represents, utterly divorced from understanding of people less fortunate than themselves. Its not the party thats to blame, just the sociopathic wing who preach Christian Values whilst stomping their boot on the throat of the disabled because they're "scroungers".
The fundamental issue is that a wealthy country such as the UK *should* be able to provide a decent support network for those who are less fortunate. This should be entirely possible with the current resources that the government has.
There is a vast amount of money wasted, too many vested interested and it's only the "easy" stuff that gets cut.
Let me give you a direct example of what I would do. The Tories have slashed Corporation Tax to an absurdly low level but have done nothing to get tax-dodging outfits like Starfucks paying both their taxes and their employees a wage they can afford to live on.
As a radical alternative, offer Corporation Tax cuts to companies who pay their dues and who pay the living wage to their workers. Because if you want people spending £5 on coffee they need money in their pockets which they won't have if you pay them £7.50 an hour. We need to encourage these businesses to become citizens as well as corporations. As big capitalists of the past have been. Even Henry Ford got that to sell cars people have to be bale to afford them.
Capitalism was replaced by bankism. We need it back.
Most companies are not like that, and steps are being taken to tighten up on those that are, but it's a slow and ardous process, not helped by couldtries like Luxembourg and their swiving scheming former prime minister. I forget what he is up to now.0 -
The Tories are lucky that this year's local elections are out of the way already.0
-
I'm with you on that. May ain't gonna last a full term, and when the Tories slot her and we get an "unelected" PM, there'll be an unstoppable wave of public outcry to have a GE. Then it's a massive payrise for me. Jeremy loves the FBU.foxinsoxuk said:
Jezza is in rude health, and no way will this government survive 5 years.Brom said:
Laughable. Won't he be around 72 in 2022? People predicting next month have no idea let alone landslides potentially years down the line.Beverley_C said:
It is becoming inconceivable Corbyn could not win a landslide at the next election.GIN1138 said:... It's [not] inconceivable Corbyn could win a landslide at the next election, IMO.
0 -
That was a very different setup, for reasons you really ought to grasp!glw said:
Lots of people were certain that the coalition of 2010 would not last.foxinsoxuk said:Jezza is in rude health, and no way will this government survive 5 years.
0 -
There is also the fact that, having suffered such a tragic event, HK tightened up their regulations and procedures.TOPPING said:
(the number of high-rise buildings in HK) x (the incidence of such incidents) = trivialJosiasJessop said:
Ahem. The Garley Building.TOPPING said:
Hong Kong manages.NickPalmer said:
I grew up in a tower block (in Denmark), lived there for about 15 years. Never experienced better maintenance and always felt safe. Clearly more people are exposed to risk than in a single family house, so high standards are needed, but there's nothing wrong with the idea per se.LadyBucket said:Perhaps now they will finally stop building these death traps
Those "events" coming thick and fast!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Garley_Building_fire
Incidentally, from what I've been told Mainland China has not.0 -
If he does fight an election he'll face someone other than Mrs May. If he can't come close to beating her then he best hope he's facing a complete dud in better circumstances.foxinsoxuk said:
Jezza is in rude health, and no way will this government survive 5 years.Brom said:
Laughable. Won't he be around 72 in 2022? People predicting next month have no idea let alone landslides potentially years down the line.Beverley_C said:
It is becoming inconceivable Corbyn could not win a landslide at the next election.GIN1138 said:... It's [not] inconceivable Corbyn could win a landslide at the next election, IMO.
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The LibDems proved far more resolute than the Tories, which was the opposite of what was expected.Bobajob_PB said:
That was a very different setup, for reasons you really ought to grasp!glw said:
Lots of people were certain that the coalition of 2010 would not last.foxinsoxuk said:Jezza is in rude health, and no way will this government survive 5 years.
The key question is whether the Tory party will hold together as the pressure grows on what will inevitably be an unpopular government from Day One. I wouldn't put any money on it lasting anywhere near its full term.
I still think May will resign after the QS, or after parliament breaks up for the summer. She is behaving either like someone in idiotic denial, or someone who wants to pass the job of changing the approach to Brexit onto the next guy.0 -
TwistedFireStopper said:
I'm with you on that. May ain't gonna last a full term, and when the Tories slot her and we get an "unelected" PM, there'll be an unstoppable wave of public outcry to have a GE. Then it's a massive payrise for me. Jeremy loves the FBU.foxinsoxuk said:
Jezza is in rude health, and no way will this government survive 5 years.Brom said:
Laughable. Won't he be around 72 in 2022? People predicting next month have no idea let alone landslides potentially years down the line.Beverley_C said:
It is becoming inconceivable Corbyn could not win a landslide at the next election.GIN1138 said:... It's [not] inconceivable Corbyn could win a landslide at the next election, IMO.
More money for everyone!!! What could go wrong.0 -
Given the woeful verification rate of your predictions these past few weeks, why should anyone give this latest forecast any credence?TGOHF said:
I predict some extreme shrieking and intense butthurt as the realisation slowly dawns on some that Labour lost, Brexit is still happening and that there wont be an election for a fair while..Jason said:
It's nice to see some cool heads giving a rational and measured appraisal of events today.....GIN1138 said:
Yep I can see riots by the mistreated populace and riots by people having their Brexit vote's stolen from them.dyedwoolie said:
Tragically it may well be the defining moment that the establishments mistreatment of the people is writ large. Everything that is wrong with the UK in one awful conflagration.GIN1138 said:This tower block fire is going to be very bad for the Conservative government...
Civil unrest a real possibility if criminal negligence by those who should protect us is shown.
Very very dangerous times.
A period of civil unrest does seem very likely.
And then, when people have got their anger our of their system, they will all go out and vote Jezza into Downing St. at the next available opportunity just to punish the establishment on last time.
It's not inconceivable Corbyn could win a landslide at the next election, IMO.0 -
Hmm - you are usually super-insightful about most everything pragmatic politics-wise and here you are blaming other forces (the MSM, the "sociopathic forces of the Conservative") for the way people vote. Not very @RochdalePioneers. Dacre? Give me a break - so you can discern and see through the complete bolleaux that he spouts, and yet your fellow man cannot?RochdalePioneers said:
We don't have to vote for misery. The war against dignity has been waged by that fucker Dacre aided and abetted by that fucker Duncan Smith. I don't care about "we can't afford it" arguments - we can't afford NOT to treat people with compassion and dignity because very soon it will be us that are old and ill and demented and I don't want to be treated like shit as this generation has been.TOPPING said:
How else would you describe our political system? We vote for the one we want. Is it a dreadful way to do things? Yep. Is it the least bad of the alternatives? Yep.atia2 said:
This is trivially true. You can close down every policy argument by noting that we chose the current policies. It's not particularly illuminating.TOPPING said:
We choose it @RochdalePioneers. Sorry but we do.RochdalePioneers said:
We can't afford the Fire Brigade. Or Police. Or Hospitals. Or Armed Forces. Or Human Dignity. We have to live within our means. With the emphasis on mean.atia2 said:
Concerning, and not surprising.
First world country?
to me its very simple. Too many Conservatives has lost their mind. Utterly disconnected from what this country represents, utterly divorced from understanding of people less fortunate than themselves. Its not the party thats to blame, just the sociopathic wing who preach Christian Values whilst stomping their boot on the throat of the disabled because they're "scroungers".
Hmmm.0 -
It's different, but people were just as certain it would not last.Bobajob_PB said:
That was a very different setup, for reasons you really ought to grasp!glw said:
Lots of people were certain that the coalition of 2010 would not last.foxinsoxuk said:Jezza is in rude health, and no way will this government survive 5 years.
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This government will survive, because it has one driving purpose behind it - stopping the possibility of Corbyn becoming PM. Don't underestimate how powerful that is.foxinsoxuk said:
Jezza is in rude health, and no way will this government survive 5 years.Brom said:
Laughable. Won't he be around 72 in 2022? People predicting next month have no idea let alone landslides potentially years down the line.Beverley_C said:
It is becoming inconceivable Corbyn could not win a landslide at the next election.GIN1138 said:... It's [not] inconceivable Corbyn could win a landslide at the next election, IMO.
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Majority 8,000. Would require 10% swing. So possible if the citizens of nowhere are angry enough.dyedwoolie said:
Labour GAIN Chelsea and Fulham.Beverley_C said:
It is becoming inconceivable Corbyn could not win a landslide at the next election.GIN1138 said:... It's [not] inconceivable Corbyn could win a landslide at the next election, IMO.
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The coalition had around 76 seat majority much bigger than Tories/DUP, also it was a proper coalition not C&S.glw said:
Lots of people were certain that the coalition of 2010 would not last.foxinsoxuk said:Jezza is in rude health, and no way will this government survive 5 years.
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Pepys in March 1663:DecrepitJohnL said:
To be even more cynical, until things become clearer, I'd stay out of any betting markets involving Boris or Sadiq, the former and current mayors of London. Meanwhile we can only hope for successful rescues.AlastairMeeks said:I'm amazed at how quickly some posters can confidently diagnose the underlying causes while this awful fire is still burning.
“..my Lord Mayor I find to be a talking, bragging Bufflehead…”
Has much changed in the intervening centuries ?0 -
Starbucks and Costa products are a discretionary purchase.logical_song said:
AFAIK Costa (Whitbread) pay their taxes, use them instead of Starbucks.Charles said:
Companies like Starbucks that use legal mechanisms to minimise their tax obligations are taking the p1ss. They have forgotten they have an obligation to stakeholders, not just to shareholders.RochdalePioneers said:
We need to cut the deficit. To do that we need to expand the economy. To do that we need to invest in the things that will allow it to expand.Charles said:
So you'd be up for a zero based budgeting approach?RochdalePioneers said:
.
The fundamental issue is that a wealthy country such as the UK *should* be able to provide a decent support network for those who are less fortunate. This should be entirely possible with the current resources that the government has.
There is a vast amount of money wasted, too many vested interested and it's only the "easy" stuff that gets cut.
Let me give you a direct example of what I would do. The Tories have slashed Corporation Tax to an absurdly low level but have done nothing to get tax-dodging outfits like Starfucks paying both their taxes and their employees a wage they can afford to live on.
As a radical alternative, offer Corporation Tax cuts to companies who pay their dues and who pay the living wage to their workers. Because if you want people spending £5 on coffee they need money in their pockets which they won't have if you pay them £7.50 an hour. We need to encourage these businesses to become citizens as well as corporations. As big capitalists of the past have been. Even Henry Ford got that to sell cars people have to be bale to afford them.
Capitalism was replaced by bankism. We need it back.
Most companies are not like that, and steps are being taken to tighten up on those that are, but it's a slow and ardous process, not helped by couldtries like Luxembourg and their swiving scheming former prime minister. I forget what he is up to now.
Use disctretion and save money if you can't afford their products.
Let them drink water.0 -
The Tories only want to rule. They will deal and compromise to stay in power. They have the seats, Labour need an unprecedented amount of by-elections or defections. If Corbyn has a poll lead then there will be no pressure on them to call an election until the 5 years is up. Of course there will be bumps in the road but those Scottish seats gave the Tories enough insurance to feel they can ride out the 5 years, though probably not under Mrs May's leadership.Jason said:
This government will survive, because it has one driving purpose behind it - stopping the possibility of Corbyn becoming PM. Don't underestimate how powerful that is.foxinsoxuk said:
Jezza is in rude health, and no way will this government survive 5 years.Brom said:
Laughable. Won't he be around 72 in 2022? People predicting next month have no idea let alone landslides potentially years down the line.Beverley_C said:
It is becoming inconceivable Corbyn could not win a landslide at the next election.GIN1138 said:... It's [not] inconceivable Corbyn could win a landslide at the next election, IMO.
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Yeah, but it felt goooooooooood.FF43 said:
I don't want to score points. I am genuinely baffled by how so many intelligent people fail to see obvious clusterfucks coming their way. Brexit is the same as Iraq. It was clear from the off they were both going to be fiascos. No special insight or knowledge required. Simply if people put forward projects on demonstrably false premises, it's not going to turn out well.TwistedFireStopper said:
Roger, it grieves me immensely, but I'm coming round to the idea that Brexit is going to turn into a clusterfuck.Roger said:"first brexit sowed division then it made it ungovernable"
New York Times.
I still believe it would have been the right thing for us, full EU was never a good fit for us, but due to the sheer incompetence of politicians on all sides, it's just undeliverable. We're governed by aresholes.
Just think - no more droite de suite.0 -
Well I didn't think about it for more than a few seconds and I am far form an expert!nigel4england said:
That could be overcome by something akin to a duty free allowance.JonCisBack said:
VAT is 20% currently. Even assuming no change in buying habits, it woudl need to go up Waaaaaaay more than to 30% to replace ALL TAXESnigel4england said:OK I have a ridiculous theory, after you have read this you will understand why I only got an O Level pass in economics.
In regard to tax surely the only thing that matters is the tax take, not the tax rate.
I propose to abandon all forms of tax apart from VAT.
Scrap Income tax, corporation tax, NI contributions both employer and employee, maybe not council tax but it would be on the table. All indirect taxation such as P11d, insurance premium tax etc to go as well
Increase VAT to 25%, possibly even 30%, for all apart from those on low incomes/unemployed/disability benefits. This would be easy to do with a simple card, if I can pay for something by waving my phone at a PDQ then this would be easy to implement.
All (well almost all) of that extra money in peoples pockets and on companies bottom line would filter it's way back into the economy, would create more and better paid jobs and allow for better public services. Auto enrolment has ensured companies and employees have to pay into a pension, now they could increase the level of payment so that in years to come the state pension would not be necessary.
I wonder how much tax could be raised by this, more to the point what would the total tax take be? All those billions currently offshore would come back, no more tax dodging, the economy would be awash with money.
I suspect (!) there is an obvious flaw in my plan and no doubt you lot will take great delight in pointing it out to me, but I would vote for me!
Not so much Laffer Curve as Laffer Flatearth!
It would be cheaper to drive to Calais once a month to do grocery shopping in your world. For anyone north of about...oooh...Leeds
Why would you assume no change in buying habits, people would have vast amounts more to spend and would gleefully do so.
Many thanks for the reply though, I am open to a few tweaks before I put it to the country.
I mean you're not...serious? right?
I suspect cash deals might skyrocket, black market may have an incentive to flourish etc
One source of taxation is quite risky and volatile as well surely?
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Yes, keep using that term "citizens of nowhere", please. See how far it gets you.nunuone said:
Majority 8,000. Would require 10% swing. So possible if the citizens of nowhere are angry enough.dyedwoolie said:
Labour GAIN Chelsea and Fulham.Beverley_C said:
It is becoming inconceivable Corbyn could not win a landslide at the next election.GIN1138 said:... It's [not] inconceivable Corbyn could win a landslide at the next election, IMO.
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And what searing predicitons have you offered that have all come true, bobajob?Bobajob_PB said:
Given the woeful verification rate of your predictions these past few weeks, why should anyone give this latest forecast any credence?TGOHF said:
I predict some extreme shrieking and intense butthurt as the realisation slowly dawns on some that Labour lost, Brexit is still happening and that there wont be an election for a fair while..Jason said:
It's nice to see some cool heads giving a rational and measured appraisal of events today.....GIN1138 said:
Yep I can see riots by the mistreated populace and riots by people having their Brexit vote's stolen from them.dyedwoolie said:
Tragically it may well be the defining moment that the establishments mistreatment of the people is writ large. Everything that is wrong with the UK in one awful conflagration.GIN1138 said:This tower block fire is going to be very bad for the Conservative government...
Civil unrest a real possibility if criminal negligence by those who should protect us is shown.
Very very dangerous times.
A period of civil unrest does seem very likely.
And then, when people have got their anger our of their system, they will all go out and vote Jezza into Downing St. at the next available opportunity just to punish the establishment on last time.
It's not inconceivable Corbyn could win a landslide at the next election, IMO.0
