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  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,963
    Looking down the thread, congratulations to @Tissue_Price on his selection for Parliamentary election in Don Valley. If I get back to UK during the campaign I'll come and give you a hand!
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,474
    IanB2 said:

    Freggles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Freggles said:

    I get to vote in the Tees Valley metro mayor election today. Which is a stronger message to Corbyn: a lib dems 1 conservatives 2 vote, or just straight up Tory?

    The former. Corbyn needs not only to be defeated but some sort of alternative opposition needs to be built.
    Yes, I'm leaning that way but the LD candidate seems loopy.
    The late Victoria Wood's brother?
    Indeed.
    kle4 said:

    So the Tories are hoping to win West Midlands, west of England and teeside? So much ge stuff I've forgotten what would count as a regular bad day vs a terrible one for labour.

    Teesside would be remarkable, but yes it's hard to quantify nowadays
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,477

    Pulpstar said:

    Freggles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Freggles said:

    I get to vote in the Tees Valley metro mayor election today. Which is a stronger message to Corbyn: a lib dems 1 conservatives 2 vote, or just straight up Tory?

    The former. Corbyn needs not only to be defeated but some sort of alternative opposition needs to be built.
    Yes, I'm leaning that way but the LD candidate seems loopy.
    Do you not want a hyperloop :o ?
    If you think I argue strongly against the Garden Bridge, just wait until I get started on any government plans to build a Hyperloop ... ;)
    We could probably have had an O'Neill cyclinder for the eventual cost of Brexit :(
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,923

    Allister Heath:

    The EU's attempt at First World War-style reparations revenge will only make Britain more united

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/03/brussels-bid-make-britain-worse-exposes-economic-illiterates/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

    Yes, this is the fantasy of wealthy, right-wing Brexiteers. We will fight them on the beaches, we will never surrender, white cliffs of Dover, Land of Hope and Glory. It will win May a huge majority at the GE. And then what? Once we have walked out of the EU with no deal and inflicted massive harm on ourselves, what happens then? Boris will get to say lots of hilarious things about foreigners and the Second World War; we can wave Union Jacks. But after a bit that may wear a bit thin. May has promised us strength and stability. Those struggling to get by are going to be better off, she has vowed. Everything will change for the better. You never know, people might just remember those promises and ask what happened to them.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    IanB2 said:

    JackW said:

    IanB2 said:

    m

    Omnium said:

    theakes said:

    A poll in the Hertfordshire Advertiser of 1000 people in St Albans gives:-
    Lib Dem 61%, Cons 17%, Labour13%, UKIP 5%, Greens 4%, I have no idea how scientfic that is but it does seem a significant sort of lead.
    I recall the Eevening Sentinel in Stoke did a poll a coupole of days before the by election, said it was neck and neck between UKIP and Labour, that was wrong.

    Are you sure the Tory and LD figures aren't the wrong way round there?
    http://www.hertsad.co.uk/news/general-election-2017-herts-ad-poll-says-anne-main-could-lose-st-albans-1-5000454

    2600 base size rather suggests voodoo - or an awfully expensive proper poll for a local paper
    no mention of who conducted it.. it smells awfully of voodoo.
    You just click to vote. I did it a few days ago. Do I have to move to St Albans now?
    Certainly not.

    There are enough LibDems in St Albans to ensure flourishing pie production. Ever thought of a move to Glasgow?
    Glasgow's a great city to visit. Don't fancy the weather, though.
    The weather wouldn't be a factor for too long for LibDems visiting Glasgow .... :naughty:
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,013
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @FraserNelson: Britain must get ready to walk away from Brexit negotiations - leading article in the new @spectator https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/britain-must-get-ready-to-walk-away-from-brexit-negotiations/

    The press do seem to be talking up car crash Brexit

    The mood music is that way from both sides, it's sensible to prepare for it even if it is just talk.
    Please Miss! They started it!

    Well, irrelevant though that is, they actually did - almost certainly for internal German consumption (have they heard of the internet? Selmayr currying favour with Mutti?) - and yesterday Barnier was distancing himself from the Juncker account - so perhaps the job of peeling Juncker/Selmayr off from the negotiations has only just started....
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,539

    Allister Heath:

    The EU's attempt at First World War-style reparations revenge will only make Britain more united

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/03/brussels-bid-make-britain-worse-exposes-economic-illiterates/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

    Yes, this is the fantasy of wealthy, right-wing Brexiteers. We will fight them on the beaches, we will never surrender, white cliffs of Dover, Land of Hope and Glory. It will win May a huge majority at the GE. And then what? Once we have walked out of the EU with no deal and inflicted massive harm on ourselves, what happens then? Boris will get to say lots of hilarious things about foreigners and the Second World War; we can wave Union Jacks. But after a bit that may wear a bit thin. May has promised us strength and stability. Those struggling to get by are going to be better off, she has vowed. Everything will change for the better. You never know, people might just remember those promises and ask what happened to them.
    The backlash against the Tories in 2019/20 is going to be something to behold.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,923
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @FraserNelson: Britain must get ready to walk away from Brexit negotiations - leading article in the new @spectator https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/britain-must-get-ready-to-walk-away-from-brexit-negotiations/

    The press do seem to be talking up car crash Brexit

    The mood music is that way from both sides, it's sensible to prepare for it even if it is just talk.

    No national leader in the EU27 has talked in the way May has talked. Have any newspapers in Europe covered events in the way that the right wing, anti-European press has here? Seems to me that one side only is looking for reasons to walk away. And it is the side that is going to be most harmed by doing so.

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,435

    Why I think the polls are still underestimating the Tory lead. From tonight's YouGov poll in The Times

    When asked to choose who would make the better prime minister, 49 per cent said Mrs May and 21 per cent said Mr Corbyn. Six per cent of Labour voters would prefer Mrs May along with 30 per cent of Lib Dems and 61 per cent of Ukip voters.

    Fifty-three per cent of people who voted Ukip in 2015 said they would vote for the Conservatives this time.

    People were asked to nominate, unprompted, any Conservative or Labour campaign slogans they had heard in this election and 15 per cent replied “strong and stable”, Mrs May’s mantra, which she used 12 times on Sunday morning TV interviews. The other Tory slogan, “coalition of chaos” showed less sign of success and was chosen by just 2 per cent of voters, with Labour’s “many not the few” also chosen by 2 per cent.

    More voters thought Labour had lots of policies compared with the Tories, but Labour’s policies were seen as far less well thought-through.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/may-s-mantra-works-wonders-with-voters-gctcx8rsz

    I mostly agree with Simon Jenkins (not something I often say) on what Corbyn should do:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/03/jeremy-corbyn-bernie-sanders-labour-leader
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,923

    The UK is interfering in the French election:
    https://twitter.com/nigel_farage/status/859883811064209408

    Is Farage the head of an International Body?

    Is Farage a leading Parliamentarian?

    Does Farage lead the Parliamentary Group on Anglo-French relations?

    Desperate much?

    Farage is an MEP and leads the party that won most votes in the UK at the last European election. He is interfering in the French election and telling French voters explicitly which way to vote.

    Farage leads UKIP?

    Better tell His Excellency Professor Nuttal VC DSO

    Nuttall is LINO. Leader in name only. If Farage wanted to he could take the job back tomorrow.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    The UK is interfering in the French election:
    https://twitter.com/nigel_farage/status/859883811064209408

    Leavers for Fascists is one of the more disturbing trends of 2017.

    I hope no one gambled too much money on the running commentary on pb last night. The unwary might have been shocked to wake up this morning to find that Emmanuel Macron polled as the comprehensive winner:

    https://twitter.com/msmithsonpb/status/859895608571813888
    I understand you're on a wind up and we did this last week, but will you please outline what is fascist about MLP? As I said last week its the most overused word in the country these days, its lost its original meaning.

    Oh, and I'd be grateful if you replied with an answer rather than a question.
    If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck:

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.784504

    But Leavers who have expressed a preference are overwhelmingly keen to see the French vote for a party leader of this type.

    It all fits in with their intensely relaxed attitude to xenophobic lies.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 2,564
    edited May 2017
    IanB2 said:

    Allister Heath:

    The EU's attempt at First World War-style reparations revenge will only make Britain more united

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/03/brussels-bid-make-britain-worse-exposes-economic-illiterates/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

    Yes, this is the fantasy of wealthy, right-wing Brexiteers. We will fight them on the beaches, we will never surrender, white cliffs of Dover, Land of Hope and Glory. It will win May a huge majority at the GE. And then what? Once we have walked out of the EU with no deal and inflicted massive harm on ourselves, what happens then? Boris will get to say lots of hilarious things about foreigners and the Second World War; we can wave Union Jacks. But after a bit that may wear a bit thin. May has promised us strength and stability. Those struggling to get by are going to be better off, she has vowed. Everything will change for the better. You never know, people might just remember those promises and ask what happened to them.
    The backlash against the Tories in 2019/20 is going to be something to behold.
    A word of caution: they said that the Tories would be out of power for a generation after the next election, in 2010..

    This is almost certainly the high point. We don't know yet, however, how big the fall will be...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,013

    Allister Heath:

    The EU's attempt at First World War-style reparations revenge will only make Britain more united

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/03/brussels-bid-make-britain-worse-exposes-economic-illiterates/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

    You never know, people might just remember those promises and ask what happened to them.
    You never know, people might just remember the threats made if we dared even vote for Brexit and wonder what happened to them.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited May 2017

    The UK is interfering in the French election:
    https://twitter.com/nigel_farage/status/859883811064209408

    Is Farage the head of an International Body?

    Is Farage a leading Parliamentarian?

    Does Farage lead the Parliamentary Group on Anglo-French relations?

    Desperate much?

    Farage is an MEP and leads the party that won most votes in the UK at the last European election. He is interfering in the French election and telling French voters explicitly which way to vote.

    Farage leads UKIP?

    Better tell His Excellency Professor Nuttal VC DSO
    You forgot Nuttall's bar to those decorations.

    Something of a tradition for a UKIP leader as was oft said that Farage frequently decorated many bars ....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    Allister Heath:

    The EU's attempt at First World War-style reparations revenge will only make Britain more united

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/03/brussels-bid-make-britain-worse-exposes-economic-illiterates/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

    Yes, this is the fantasy of wealthy, right-wing Brexiteers. We will fight them on the beaches, we will never surrender, white cliffs of Dover, Land of Hope and Glory. It will win May a huge majority at the GE. And then what? Once we have walked out of the EU with no deal and inflicted massive harm on ourselves, what happens then? Boris will get to say lots of hilarious things about foreigners and the Second World War; we can wave Union Jacks. But after a bit that may wear a bit thin. May has promised us strength and stability. Those struggling to get by are going to be better off, she has vowed. Everything will change for the better. You never know, people might just remember those promises and ask what happened to them.
    Yes they might, and plenty don't want us to find out how we all might react to that. But it takes two to tango and current demands are unacceptable and the attitude hostile and punitive. TMay may have made that worse, or as others think our position is irrelevant since the eu position will be what it regardless, and she may, to use a phrase, rue the day. But clearly we need to start thinking seriously about the car crash option, whether one thinks the upbeat, jingoistic talk is reasonable or not.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Allister Heath:

    The EU's attempt at First World War-style reparations revenge will only make Britain more united

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/03/brussels-bid-make-britain-worse-exposes-economic-illiterates/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

    Yes, this is the fantasy of wealthy, right-wing Brexiteers. We will fight them on the beaches, we will never surrender, white cliffs of Dover, Land of Hope and Glory. It will win May a huge majority at the GE. And then what? Once we have walked out of the EU with no deal and inflicted massive harm on ourselves, what happens then? Boris will get to say lots of hilarious things about foreigners and the Second World War; we can wave Union Jacks. But after a bit that may wear a bit thin. May has promised us strength and stability. Those struggling to get by are going to be better off, she has vowed. Everything will change for the better. You never know, people might just remember those promises and ask what happened to them.
    Not to mention the £350 million a week for the NHS we were promised -- which is why I'll be backing Boris to be first out of the new Cabinet.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,923

    The UK is interfering in the French election:
    https://twitter.com/nigel_farage/status/859883811064209408

    Is Farage the head of an International Body?

    Is Farage a leading Parliamentarian?

    Does Farage lead the Parliamentary Group on Anglo-French relations?

    Desperate much?

    Farage is an MEP and leads the party that won most votes in the UK at the last European election. He is interfering in the French election and telling French voters explicitly which way to vote.

    Do you think they'll listen to him?

    Probably slightly more so than the British electorate will listen to an MEP from Belgium or read a German language report of a meeting between the PM and a powerless politician from Luxembourg who nobody has heard of.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,013

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @FraserNelson: Britain must get ready to walk away from Brexit negotiations - leading article in the new @spectator https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/britain-must-get-ready-to-walk-away-from-brexit-negotiations/

    The press do seem to be talking up car crash Brexit

    The mood music is that way from both sides, it's sensible to prepare for it even if it is just talk.

    No national leader in the EU27 has talked in the way May has talked.
    No, but the head of the EU has had quotes attributed to him which he has not denied, from an allegedly very close source.

    But thats ok?

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,369
    Mr. B2, that's certainly a credible possibility. May could fail terribly. Or do rather well.

    The only certainty is that she won't be as bad as Corbyn would be.

    Mr. Observer, I've concluded May was wrong to say precisely what she did. Interference in the election was an excessive claim, but there are genuine grievances to be had with both on- and off-the-record murmurings from Brussels.

    Mr. Sandpit, huzzah for Mr. Price!
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,923

    Scott_P said:

    @damienmcguin: German daily Die Welt: instead of preparing voters for pain of #brexit , May makes impossible promises to win anti-EU UKIP/Labour voters

    Which 'impossible promises'?

    She has promised voters that they will be better off than they are now; that she will look after those who are just about managing. She is going to deliver strength and stability. Let's see what happens.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,539

    Why I think the polls are still underestimating the Tory lead. From tonight's YouGov poll in The Times

    When asked to choose who would make the better prime minister, 49 per cent said Mrs May and 21 per cent said Mr Corbyn. Six per cent of Labour voters would prefer Mrs May along with 30 per cent of Lib Dems and 61 per cent of Ukip voters.

    Fifty-three per cent of people who voted Ukip in 2015 said they would vote for the Conservatives this time.

    People were asked to nominate, unprompted, any Conservative or Labour campaign slogans they had heard in this election and 15 per cent replied “strong and stable”, Mrs May’s mantra, which she used 12 times on Sunday morning TV interviews. The other Tory slogan, “coalition of chaos” showed less sign of success and was chosen by just 2 per cent of voters, with Labour’s “many not the few” also chosen by 2 per cent.

    More voters thought Labour had lots of policies compared with the Tories, but Labour’s policies were seen as far less well thought-through.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/may-s-mantra-works-wonders-with-voters-gctcx8rsz

    I mostly agree with Simon Jenkins (not something I often say) on what Corbyn should do:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/03/jeremy-corbyn-bernie-sanders-labour-leader
    He was never going to unite the Labour party, a task akin to repairing the Holy Roman Empire is certainly hard to disagree with!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @FraserNelson: Britain must get ready to walk away from Brexit negotiations - leading article in the new @spectator https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/britain-must-get-ready-to-walk-away-from-brexit-negotiations/

    The press do seem to be talking up car crash Brexit

    The mood music is that way from both sides, it's sensible to prepare for it even if it is just talk.

    No national leader in the EU27 has talked in the way May has talked. Have any newspapers in Europe covered events in the way that the right wing, anti-European press has here? Seems to me that one side only is looking for reasons to walk away. And it is the side that is going to be most harmed by doing so.

    That their press rhetoric is not as inflammatory means nothing. The arbitrary raising of demands and insulting leaks are actions designed to make a deal harder. As I said, perhaps TMay has made things worse, although again others have suggested the eu position and the endgame we face is irrelevant to what we do, but they have contributed to this. Want yo argue degree, that's something else, and may is in an election of course she uses more inflammatory talk.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,013

    The UK is interfering in the French election:
    https://twitter.com/nigel_farage/status/859883811064209408

    Is Farage the head of an International Body?

    Is Farage a leading Parliamentarian?

    Does Farage lead the Parliamentary Group on Anglo-French relations?

    Desperate much?

    Farage is an MEP and leads the party that won most votes in the UK at the last European election. He is interfering in the French election and telling French voters explicitly which way to vote.

    Do you think they'll listen to him?

    Probably slightly more so than the British electorate will listen to an MEP from Belgium or read a German language report of a meeting between the PM and a powerless politician from Luxembourg who nobody has heard of.

    That got wall to wall coverage in the UK press?


    Desperate stuff!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    You never know, people might just remember the threats made if we dared even vote for Brexit and wonder what happened to them.

    People said before the vote that Brexit would be a car crash.

    If it now turns out to be a car crash, you think people will remember what was said before the vote?

    Ummmm...
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,923

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @FraserNelson: Britain must get ready to walk away from Brexit negotiations - leading article in the new @spectator https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/britain-must-get-ready-to-walk-away-from-brexit-negotiations/

    The press do seem to be talking up car crash Brexit

    The mood music is that way from both sides, it's sensible to prepare for it even if it is just talk.

    No national leader in the EU27 has talked in the way May has talked.
    No, but the head of the EU has had quotes attributed to him which he has not denied, from an allegedly very close source.

    But thats ok?

    Nope, it's not. But it was a report in a German language newspaper and it did not amount to interference in the UK election.

  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    The UK is interfering in the French election:
    https://twitter.com/nigel_farage/status/859883811064209408

    Leavers for Fascists is one of the more disturbing trends of 2017.

    I hope no one gambled too much money on the running commentary on pb last night. The unwary might have been shocked to wake up this morning to find that Emmanuel Macron polled as the comprehensive winner:

    https://twitter.com/msmithsonpb/status/859895608571813888
    I understand you're on a wind up and we did this last week, but will you please outline what is fascist about MLP? As I said last week its the most overused word in the country these days, its lost its original meaning.

    Oh, and I'd be grateful if you replied with an answer rather than a question.
    If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck:

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.784504

    But Leavers who have expressed a preference are overwhelmingly keen to see the French vote for a party leader of this type.

    It all fits in with their intensely relaxed attitude to xenophobic lies.
    Poor effort tbh, you really have lost it which is very amusing.

    I'd suggest your beef is with the millions of French that are about to vote for her rather than a handful of those who voted Leave in the UK who give a fuck.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,927
    edited May 2017
    Ishmael_Z said:



    Atrocious PR, then; if the bulk of the money was private, go the extra mile and say loud and clear that not a brass farthing is coming from the public. Would have made all the difference.

    I think you and your family should step in and pick up the whole tab. The name of the bridge would be deliciously piquant, after Boris's observation that it would serve as a place for seedy romantic liaisons.

    It's not so such the PR as the fact it became a political stick to bash Boris with. At that point it was no longer a question of merit, but something else. Once Khan was elected it was never going to happen, regardless of any "independent" report or otherwise.

    As it happens we've just sold a business that would pretty much cover the gap and are debating whether we should give the money to charity or use it to diversify the family's asset base... I doubt this would be our first choice though!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    Why I think the polls are still underestimating the Tory lead. From tonight's YouGov poll in The Times

    When asked to choose who would make the better prime minister, 49 per cent said Mrs May and 21 per cent said Mr Corbyn. Six per cent of Labour voters would prefer Mrs May along with 30 per cent of Lib Dems and 61 per cent of Ukip voters.

    Fifty-three per cent of people who voted Ukip in 2015 said they would vote for the Conservatives this time.

    People were asked to nominate, unprompted, any Conservative or Labour campaign slogans they had heard in this election and 15 per cent replied “strong and stable”, Mrs May’s mantra, which she used 12 times on Sunday morning TV interviews. The other Tory slogan, “coalition of chaos” showed less sign of success and was chosen by just 2 per cent of voters, with Labour’s “many not the few” also chosen by 2 per cent.

    More voters thought Labour had lots of policies compared with the Tories, but Labour’s policies were seen as far less well thought-through.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/may-s-mantra-works-wonders-with-voters-gctcx8rsz

    I mostly agree with Simon Jenkins (not something I often say) on what Corbyn should do:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/03/jeremy-corbyn-bernie-sanders-labour-leader
    Well, he hadn't had a bad start but he's not likely to win so I suppose he could go back to unleashing the fire of his passion about rigged systems, I know at least one voter who loved it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,013

    Scott_P said:

    @damienmcguin: German daily Die Welt: instead of preparing voters for pain of #brexit , May makes impossible promises to win anti-EU UKIP/Labour voters

    Which 'impossible promises'?

    She has promised voters that they will be better off than they are now; that she will look after those who are just about managing. She is going to deliver strength and stability. Let's see what happens.
    May has not promised that in the context of Brexit - where she has said there may be difficult times ahead.

    But of course

    Brexit cannot be a success

    The mask has slipped
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,923
    edited May 2017

    The UK is interfering in the French election:
    https://twitter.com/nigel_farage/status/859883811064209408

    Is Farage the head of an International Body?

    Is Farage a leading Parliamentarian?

    Does Farage lead the Parliamentary Group on Anglo-French relations?

    Desperate much?

    Farage is an MEP and leads the party that won most votes in the UK at the last European election. He is interfering in the French election and telling French voters explicitly which way to vote.

    Do you think they'll listen to him?

    Probably slightly more so than the British electorate will listen to an MEP from Belgium or read a German language report of a meeting between the PM and a powerless politician from Luxembourg who nobody has heard of.

    That got wall to wall coverage in the UK press?


    Desperate stuff!

    It got wall to wall coverage in the anti-European right wing press and was used to ramp up support for May. yes, it was desperate stuff. And totally unnecessary, May was always going to win a huge majority. There was no need to get rattled by Juncker. She reacted as a mediocre politician totally out of her depth would react. That is not good news for us post-8th June.








  • theakes said:

    A poll in the Hertfordshire Advertiser of 1000 people in St Albans gives:-
    Lib Dem 61%, Cons 17%, Labour13%, UKIP 5%, Greens 4%, I have no idea how scientfic that is but it does seem a significant sort of lead.
    I recall the Eevening Sentinel in Stoke did a poll a coupole of days before the by election, said it was neck and neck between UKIP and Labour, that was wrong.

    These sorts of online newspaper polls are fairly inaccurate thought. It's easy for activists to band together and influence them. While I wish that poll were true, I suspect it's not.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,859

    Allister Heath:

    The EU's attempt at First World War-style reparations revenge will only make Britain more united

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/03/brussels-bid-make-britain-worse-exposes-economic-illiterates/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

    Yes, this is the fantasy of wealthy, right-wing Brexiteers. We will fight them on the beaches, we will never surrender, white cliffs of Dover, Land of Hope and Glory. It will win May a huge majority at the GE. And then what? Once we have walked out of the EU with no deal and inflicted massive harm on ourselves, what happens then? Boris will get to say lots of hilarious things about foreigners and the Second World War; we can wave Union Jacks. But after a bit that may wear a bit thin. May has promised us strength and stability. Those struggling to get by are going to be better off, she has vowed. Everything will change for the better. You never know, people might just remember those promises and ask what happened to them.
    And the EU unilaterally doubling the bullshit exit bill is a sign of what? A friendly ally? Since June 23rd last year the UK and the EU have been on opposing sides. Until you understand that the EU is as hostile to the UK as we are to the EU your posts here are worthless and one eyed. You view the EU with rose tinted glasses and see them as an innocent party when in reality they are no better than a protection racket trying to punish someone who has decided to stop paying up.

    I do hope you now see why the government will pull security cooperation. The idea that they give a shit about British citizens overseas is naïve. If it gives the government an advantage then it will be used.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    May has not promised that in the context of Brexit

    Eh?

    Brexit is the ONLY context there is
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    The UK is interfering in the French election:
    https://twitter.com/nigel_farage/status/859883811064209408

    Leavers for Fascists is one of the more disturbing trends of 2017.

    I hope no one gambled too much money on the running commentary on pb last night. The unwary might have been shocked to wake up this morning to find that Emmanuel Macron polled as the comprehensive winner:

    https://twitter.com/msmithsonpb/status/859895608571813888
    I understand you're on a wind up and we did this last week, but will you please outline what is fascist about MLP? As I said last week its the most overused word in the country these days, its lost its original meaning.

    Oh, and I'd be grateful if you replied with an answer rather than a question.
    If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck:

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.784504

    But Leavers who have expressed a preference are overwhelmingly keen to see the French vote for a party leader of this type.

    It all fits in with their intensely relaxed attitude to xenophobic lies.
    Poor effort tbh, you really have lost it which is very amusing.

    I'd suggest your beef is with the millions of French that are about to vote for her rather than a handful of those who voted Leave in the UK who give a fuck.
    I have no beef with the French I do have a beef with those fascist-sympathising backwards-rationalising Leavers who are dismantling everything decent about this country in pursuit of their bizarre hobbyhorse.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,013

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @FraserNelson: Britain must get ready to walk away from Brexit negotiations - leading article in the new @spectator https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/britain-must-get-ready-to-walk-away-from-brexit-negotiations/

    The press do seem to be talking up car crash Brexit

    The mood music is that way from both sides, it's sensible to prepare for it even if it is just talk.

    No national leader in the EU27 has talked in the way May has talked.
    No, but the head of the EU has had quotes attributed to him which he has not denied, from an allegedly very close source.

    But thats ok?

    Nope, it's not. But it was a report in a German language newspaper and it did not amount to interference in the UK election.
    Having the PM questioned on Marr about whether she was on another galaxy doesn't amount to interference?

    It's a view.....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    Scott_P said:

    @damienmcguin: German daily Die Welt: instead of preparing voters for pain of #brexit , May makes impossible promises to win anti-EU UKIP/Labour voters

    Which 'impossible promises'?

    She has promised voters that they will be better off than they are now; that she will look after those who are just about managing. She is going to deliver strength and stability. Let's see what happens.

    The fall could be swift, it could not. It's another reason labour will need to hold together, as they might be able to recover quicker than thought if things go south.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,927

    Charles said:

    It's a statement of fact. You seemed like a nice guy before. Since then you laid into Plato in very personal terms on several occasions, you've accused me of showing off when I cite my sources, and now you impugn my charitable motives.

    I've no interest in any further conversation with you.

    Plato laid into me as well, sometimes using similar nasty non-arguments to the one you just have (and worse).

    Perhaps I haven't changed, and you're just not used to your arguments not being robustly challenged?

    "you've accused me of showing off when I cite my sources"

    Well, you continually claimed that you were not one of the establishment, and then talk (often the same day) about the figures of the establishment you've talked to. Worse, you use those conversations as 'evidence' for what you're saying.

    "and now you impugn my charitable motives."

    I know you do a lot of good work for charity, and I admire that. But that admiration is slightly lessened with what you've said over the Garden Bridge.
    The Garden Bridge isn't charitable in my view. It's a tool for economic regeneration.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @politic_animal: Remember to report any EU interference in today's elections. Rumours that Juncker is knocking up the vote for Plaid in Vale of Glamorgan.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,859

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @FraserNelson: Britain must get ready to walk away from Brexit negotiations - leading article in the new @spectator https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/britain-must-get-ready-to-walk-away-from-brexit-negotiations/

    The press do seem to be talking up car crash Brexit

    The mood music is that way from both sides, it's sensible to prepare for it even if it is just talk.

    No national leader in the EU27 has talked in the way May has talked.
    No, but the head of the EU has had quotes attributed to him which he has not denied, from an allegedly very close source.

    But thats ok?

    Nope, it's not. But it was a report in a German language newspaper and it did not amount to interference in the UK election.

    It even made the TV news in Switzerland. It got very wide coverage in the UK press as well and I'm sure it was all over the TV channels as well.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,923
    MaxPB said:

    Allister Heath:

    The EU's attempt at First World War-style reparations revenge will only make Britain more united

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/03/brussels-bid-make-britain-worse-exposes-economic-illiterates/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

    Yes, this is the fantasy of wealthy, right-wing Brexiteers. We will fight them on the beaches, we will never surrender, white cliffs of Dover, Land of Hope and Glory. It will win May a huge majority at the GE. And then what? Once we have walked out of the EU with no deal and inflicted massive harm on ourselves, what happens then? Boris will get to say lots of hilarious things about foreigners and the Second World War; we can wave Union Jacks. But after a bit that may wear a bit thin. May has promised us strength and stability. Those struggling to get by are going to be better off, she has vowed. Everything will change for the better. You never know, people might just remember those promises and ask what happened to them.
    And the EU unilaterally doubling the bullshit exit bill is a sign of what? A friendly ally? Since June 23rd last year the UK and the EU have been on opposing sides. Until you understand that the EU is as hostile to the UK as we are to the EU your posts here are worthless and one eyed. You view the EU with rose tinted glasses and see them as an innocent party when in reality they are no better than a protection racket trying to punish someone who has decided to stop paying up.

    I do hope you now see why the government will pull security cooperation. The idea that they give a shit about British citizens overseas is naïve. If it gives the government an advantage then it will be used.

    Yep - it does look like the government has no real interest in British citizens. It is interested only in the Conservative party.

  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    Scott_P said:
    Wow. This stuff is getting serious... a rent strike will cripple the EU institutions. It's almost as if we have nothing to lose. If they start off with 100 billion demand, there's no negotiating that kind of sum down to something that is acceptable.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,480
    edited May 2017

    Disastrous performance by Le Pen.
    I have switched my voting share betting from 35/40 and 40/45 to 30/35 and 35/40.

    It wasn't disastrous at all, Le Pen landed no knockout blow certainly but post debate polling showed little real change from before, the percentage who thought Macron won was roughly the same as those already voting for him once you exclude those who will abstain on Sunday
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    theakes said:

    A poll in the Hertfordshire Advertiser of 1000 people in St Albans gives:-
    Lib Dem 61%, Cons 17%, Labour13%, UKIP 5%, Greens 4%, I have no idea how scientfic that is but it does seem a significant sort of lead.
    I recall the Eevening Sentinel in Stoke did a poll a coupole of days before the by election, said it was neck and neck between UKIP and Labour, that was wrong.

    These sorts of online newspaper polls are fairly inaccurate thought. It's easy for activists to band together and influence them. While I wish that poll were true, I suspect it's not.
    I think Matt Singh did a piece awhile back on some American 'poll' through the newspaper decades ago, millions of respondents, which ended up way off for that and other reasons.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,369
    Mr. Max, the reverse may be true.

    The UK doesn't mind, indeed, it should want, the EU to be a success. The EU does not want the UK to be a success outside the EU.

    In terms of pure interests, disregarding the personalities and national electorates involved, the UK is better disposed to the EU than vice versa.

    But, we're still in the electioneering phase. I do wonder if May has overdone it. That said, criticism of her from people who had no problem with a £100bn bill being whispered or comments on Gibraltar/Northern Ireland is an exercise in double standards.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @gabyhinsliff: Short of posing with a pint & a fag, PM can't go more Farage. #LocalElections2017 today is the first test of how UKIP voters respond.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    The UK is interfering in the French election:
    https://twitter.com/nigel_farage/status/859883811064209408

    Leavers for Fascists is one of the more disturbing trends of 2017.

    I hope no one gambled too much money on the running commentary on pb last night. The unwary might have been shocked to wake up this morning to find that Emmanuel Macron polled as the comprehensive winner:

    https://twitter.com/msmithsonpb/status/859895608571813888
    I understand you're on a wind up and we did this last week, but will you please outline what is fascist about MLP? As I said last week its the most overused word in the country these days, its lost its original meaning.

    Oh, and I'd be grateful if you replied with an answer rather than a question.
    If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck:

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.784504

    But Leavers who have expressed a preference are overwhelmingly keen to see the French vote for a party leader of this type.

    It all fits in with their intensely relaxed attitude to xenophobic lies.
    Poor effort tbh, you really have lost it which is very amusing.

    I'd suggest your beef is with the millions of French that are about to vote for her rather than a handful of those who voted Leave in the UK who give a fuck.
    I have no beef with the French I do have a beef with those fascist-sympathising backwards-rationalising Leavers who are dismantling everything decent about this country in pursuit of their bizarre hobbyhorse.
    Oh well, as I said previously, reading your posts is increasingly amusing.

    Until you accept that you are the reason people voted Leave your snarling anger will never disappear.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @FraserNelson: Britain must get ready to walk away from Brexit negotiations - leading article in the new @spectator https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/britain-must-get-ready-to-walk-away-from-brexit-negotiations/

    The press do seem to be talking up car crash Brexit

    The mood music is that way from both sides, it's sensible to prepare for it even if it is just talk.

    No national leader in the EU27 has talked in the way May has talked.
    No, but the head of the EU has had quotes attributed to him which he has not denied, from an allegedly very close source.

    But thats ok?

    Nope, it's not. But it was a report in a German language newspaper and it did not amount to interference in the UK election.
    Having the PM questioned on Marr about whether she was on another galaxy doesn't amount to interference?

    It's a view.....
    I don't think how big a deal our media makes of it can be laid at their door, although the leaks were clearly to damage TMay. That doesn't make her statement proportionate, it was over the top electioneering, but that being the case people are overreacting. A sensible eu would not care about such things. I was surprised in the actual podcast how non hysterical they were about it.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,859

    MaxPB said:

    Allister Heath:

    The EU's attempt at First World War-style reparations revenge will only make Britain more united

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/03/brussels-bid-make-britain-worse-exposes-economic-illiterates/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

    Yes, this is the fantasy of wealthy, right-wing Brexiteers. We will fight them on the beaches, we will never surrender, white cliffs of Dover, Land of Hope and Glory. It will win May a huge majority at the GE. And then what? Once we have walked out of the EU with no deal and inflicted massive harm on ourselves, what happens then? Boris will get to say lots of hilarious things about foreigners and the Second World War; we can wave Union Jacks. But after a bit that may wear a bit thin. May has promised us strength and stability. Those struggling to get by are going to be better off, she has vowed. Everything will change for the better. You never know, people might just remember those promises and ask what happened to them.
    And the EU unilaterally doubling the bullshit exit bill is a sign of what? A friendly ally? Since June 23rd last year the UK and the EU have been on opposing sides. Until you understand that the EU is as hostile to the UK as we are to the EU your posts here are worthless and one eyed. You view the EU with rose tinted glasses and see them as an innocent party when in reality they are no better than a protection racket trying to punish someone who has decided to stop paying up.

    I do hope you now see why the government will pull security cooperation. The idea that they give a shit about British citizens overseas is naïve. If it gives the government an advantage then it will be used.

    Yep - it does look like the government has no real interest in British citizens. It is interested only in the Conservative party.

    Desperate stuff. I live overseas for most of the year and I want the government to pull security cooperation if a trade deal can't be agreed. I'm not selfish enough to put my own circumstances​ and choices before the good of the nation which may require the EU to learn a few lessons the hard way.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,435

    theakes said:

    A poll in the Hertfordshire Advertiser of 1000 people in St Albans gives:-
    Lib Dem 61%, Cons 17%, Labour13%, UKIP 5%, Greens 4%, I have no idea how scientfic that is but it does seem a significant sort of lead.
    I recall the Eevening Sentinel in Stoke did a poll a coupole of days before the by election, said it was neck and neck between UKIP and Labour, that was wrong.

    These sorts of online newspaper polls are fairly inaccurate thought. It's easy for activists to band together and influence them. While I wish that poll were true, I suspect it's not.
    There's a similar one in the Birmingham Post showing Sion Simon slightly ahead. That's slightly more respectable as they say they did a random sample, but it's a sample of their online readership. I have no idea whether people who read the Post online are remotely representative one way or another.

    By the way, when are the results expected for most of these elections - tonight or tomorrow?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,005
    JackW said:

    IanB2 said:

    JackW said:

    IanB2 said:

    m

    Omnium said:

    theakes said:

    A poll in the Hertfordshire Advertiser of 1000 people in St Albans gives:-
    Lib Dem 61%, Cons 17%, Labour13%, UKIP 5%, Greens 4%, I have no idea how scientfic that is but it does seem a significant sort of lead.
    I recall the Eevening Sentinel in Stoke did a poll a coupole of days before the by election, said it was neck and neck between UKIP and Labour, that was wrong.

    Are you sure the Tory and LD figures aren't the wrong way round there?
    http://www.hertsad.co.uk/news/general-election-2017-herts-ad-poll-says-anne-main-could-lose-st-albans-1-5000454

    2600 base size rather suggests voodoo - or an awfully expensive proper poll for a local paper
    no mention of who conducted it.. it smells awfully of voodoo.
    You just click to vote. I did it a few days ago. Do I have to move to St Albans now?
    Certainly not.

    There are enough LibDems in St Albans to ensure flourishing pie production. Ever thought of a move to Glasgow?
    Glasgow's a great city to visit. Don't fancy the weather, though.
    The weather wouldn't be a factor for too long for LibDems visiting Glasgow .... :naughty:
    Roy Jenkins liked the place.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    Scott_P said:

    @gabyhinsliff: Short of posing with a pint & a fag, PM can't go more Farage. #LocalElections2017 today is the first test of how UKIP voters respond.

    Well they've got very few ukip candidates to vote for anyway.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,013

    The UK is interfering in the French election:
    https://twitter.com/nigel_farage/status/859883811064209408

    Is Farage the head of an International Body?

    Is Farage a leading Parliamentarian?

    Does Farage lead the Parliamentary Group on Anglo-French relations?

    Desperate much?

    Farage is an MEP and leads the party that won most votes in the UK at the last European election. He is interfering in the French election and telling French voters explicitly which way to vote.

    Do you think they'll listen to him?

    Probably slightly more so than the British electorate will listen to an MEP from Belgium or read a German language report of a meeting between the PM and a powerless politician from Luxembourg who nobody has heard of.

    That got wall to wall coverage in the UK press?


    Desperate stuff!

    It got wall to wall coverage in the anti-European right wing press
    Like the Mirror:

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/damning-details-disastrous-downing-street-10333154

    Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/01/jean-claude-juncker-to-theresa-may-on-brexit-im-10-times-more-sceptical-than-i-was-before

    And FT?

    https://www.ft.com/content/40e3cb30-2cd4-11e7-9555-23ef563ecf9a
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    edited May 2017

    MaxPB said:

    Allister Heath:

    The EU's attempt at First World War-style reparations revenge will only make Britain more united

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/03/brussels-bid-make-britain-worse-exposes-economic-illiterates/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

    Yes, this is the fantasy of wealthy, right-wing Brexiteers. We will fight them on the beaches, we will never surrender, white cliffs of Dover, Land of Hope and Glory. It will win May a huge majority at the GE. And then what? Once we have walked out of the EU with no deal and inflicted massive harm on ourselves, what happens then? Boris will get to say lots of hilarious things about foreigners and the Second World War; we can wave Union Jacks. But after a bit that may wear a bit thin. May has promised us strength and stability. Those struggling to get by are going to be better off, she has vowed. Everything will change for the better. You never know, people might just remember those promises and ask what happened to them.
    And the EU unilaterally doubling the bullshit exit bill is a sign of what? A friendly ally? Since June 23rd last year the UK and the EU have been on opposing sides. Until you understand that the EU is as hostile to the UK as we are to the EU your posts here are worthless and one eyed. You view the EU with rose tinted glasses and see them as an innocent party when in reality they are no better than a protection racket trying to punish someone who has decided to stop paying up.

    I do hope you now see why the government will pull security cooperation. The idea that they give a shit about British citizens overseas is naïve. If it gives the government an advantage then it will be used.

    Yep - it does look like the government has no real interest in British citizens. It is interested only in the Conservative party.

    Following the landslide and a quick rule change, membership of the latter will be a prerequisite to get the former.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Allister Heath:

    The EU's attempt at First World War-style reparations revenge will only make Britain more united

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/03/brussels-bid-make-britain-worse-exposes-economic-illiterates/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

    Yes, this is the fantasy of wealthy, right-wing Brexiteers. We will fight them on the beaches, we will never surrender, white cliffs of Dover, Land of Hope and Glory. It will win May a huge majority at the GE. And then what? Once we have walked out of the EU with no deal and inflicted massive harm on ourselves, what happens then? Boris will get to say lots of hilarious things about foreigners and the Second World War; we can wave Union Jacks. But after a bit that may wear a bit thin. May has promised us strength and stability. Those struggling to get by are going to be better off, she has vowed. Everything will change for the better. You never know, people might just remember those promises and ask what happened to them.
    I think that is a perfect description of the current situation. Almost poetic in its imagery ;)

    Accurate nonetheless ...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    HYUFD said:

    Disastrous performance by Le Pen.
    I have switched my voting share betting from 35/40 and 40/45 to 30/35 and 35/40.

    It wasn't disastrous at all, Le Pen landed no knockout blow certainly but post debate polling showed little real change from before, the percentage who thought Macron won was roughly the same as those already voting for him once you exclude those who will abstain on Sunday
    The BBC updates made it seem Le Pen gave a decent account of herself but macron was and is comfortably ahead, which is for the best. Just a question of if she can break into the 40s.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,539

    theakes said:

    A poll in the Hertfordshire Advertiser of 1000 people in St Albans gives:-
    Lib Dem 61%, Cons 17%, Labour13%, UKIP 5%, Greens 4%, I have no idea how scientfic that is but it does seem a significant sort of lead.
    I recall the Eevening Sentinel in Stoke did a poll a coupole of days before the by election, said it was neck and neck between UKIP and Labour, that was wrong.

    These sorts of online newspaper polls are fairly inaccurate thought. It's easy for activists to band together and influence them. While I wish that poll were true, I suspect it's not.
    There's a similar one in the Birmingham Post showing Sion Simon slightly ahead. That's slightly more respectable as they say they did a random sample, but it's a sample of their online readership. I have no idea whether people who read the Post online are remotely representative one way or another.

    By the way, when are the results expected for most of these elections - tonight or tomorrow?
    Counties almost all tomorrow. I am not sure about the mayors but where there are county elections simultaneous it would be unusual to have two separate counts.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    The UK is interfering in the French election:
    https://twitter.com/nigel_farage/status/859883811064209408

    Leavers for Fascists is one of the more disturbing trends of 2017.

    I hope no one gambled too much money on the running commentary on pb last night. The unwary might have been shocked to wake up this morning to find that Emmanuel Macron polled as the comprehensive winner:

    https://twitter.com/msmithsonpb/status/859895608571813888
    I understand you're on a wind up and we did this last week, but will you please outline what is fascist about MLP? As I said last week its the most overused word in the country these days, its lost its original meaning.

    Oh, and I'd be grateful if you replied with an answer rather than a question.
    If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck:

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.784504

    But Leavers who have expressed a preference are overwhelmingly keen to see the French vote for a party leader of this type.

    It all fits in with their intensely relaxed attitude to xenophobic lies.
    Using Haaretz as a creditable source? And an Opinion page too! *chuckle*
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,013
    Oh dear! Roger & his mates letting the side down among the anti-fascists in France:

    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/860026331505053696

    Chortle......
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,219

    The UK is interfering in the French election:
    https://twitter.com/nigel_farage/status/859883811064209408

    Leavers for Fascists is one of the more disturbing trends of 2017.

    I hope no one gambled too much money on the running commentary on pb last night. The unwary might have been shocked to wake up this morning to find that Emmanuel Macron polled as the comprehensive winner:

    https://twitter.com/msmithsonpb/status/859895608571813888
    I understand you're on a wind up and we did this last week, but will you please outline what is fascist about MLP? As I said last week its the most overused word in the country these days, its lost its original meaning.

    Oh, and I'd be grateful if you replied with an answer rather than a question.
    If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck:

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.784504

    But Leavers who have expressed a preference are overwhelmingly keen to see the French vote for a party leader of this type.

    It all fits in with their intensely relaxed attitude to xenophobic lies.
    Poor effort tbh, you really have lost it which is very amusing.

    I'd suggest your beef is with the millions of French that are about to vote for her rather than a handful of those who voted Leave in the UK who give a fuck.
    I have no beef with the French I do have a beef with those fascist-sympathising backwards-rationalising Leavers who are dismantling everything decent about this country in pursuit of their bizarre hobbyhorse.
    We wish to establish fascist States on both sides of the Channel.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,539

    Allister Heath:

    The EU's attempt at First World War-style reparations revenge will only make Britain more united

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/03/brussels-bid-make-britain-worse-exposes-economic-illiterates/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

    Yes, this is the fantasy of wealthy, right-wing Brexiteers. We will fight them on the beaches, we will never surrender, white cliffs of Dover, Land of Hope and Glory. It will win May a huge majority at the GE. And then what? Once we have walked out of the EU with no deal and inflicted massive harm on ourselves, what happens then? Boris will get to say lots of hilarious things about foreigners and the Second World War; we can wave Union Jacks. But after a bit that may wear a bit thin. May has promised us strength and stability. Those struggling to get by are going to be better off, she has vowed. Everything will change for the better. You never know, people might just remember those promises and ask what happened to them.
    I think that is a perfect description of the current situation. Almost poetic in its imagery ;)

    Accurate nonetheless ...
    Bread and circuses. Without the bread.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Allister Heath:

    The EU's attempt at First World War-style reparations revenge will only make Britain more united

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/03/brussels-bid-make-britain-worse-exposes-economic-illiterates/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

    Yes, this is the fantasy of wealthy, right-wing Brexiteers. We will fight them on the beaches, we will never surrender, white cliffs of Dover, Land of Hope and Glory. It will win May a huge majority at the GE. And then what? Once we have walked out of the EU with no deal and inflicted massive harm on ourselves, what happens then? Boris will get to say lots of hilarious things about foreigners and the Second World War; we can wave Union Jacks. But after a bit that may wear a bit thin. May has promised us strength and stability. Those struggling to get by are going to be better off, she has vowed. Everything will change for the better. You never know, people might just remember those promises and ask what happened to them.
    And the EU unilaterally doubling the bullshit exit bill is a sign of what? A friendly ally? Since June 23rd last year the UK and the EU have been on opposing sides. Until you understand that the EU is as hostile to the UK as we are to the EU your posts here are worthless and one eyed. You view the EU with rose tinted glasses and see them as an innocent party when in reality they are no better than a protection racket trying to punish someone who has decided to stop paying up.

    I do hope you now see why the government will pull security cooperation. The idea that they give a shit about British citizens overseas is naïve. If it gives the government an advantage then it will be used.

    Yep - it does look like the government has no real interest in British citizens. It is interested only in the Conservative party.

    Desperate stuff. I live overseas for most of the year and I want the government to pull security cooperation if a trade deal can't be agreed. I'm not selfish enough to put my own circumstances​ and choices before the good of the nation which may require the EU to learn a few lessons the hard way.
    It is becoming clear that the European Union is acting like an unfriendly power. If the member states back this stance, I feel no other option can be taken but to remove not only security intelligence, but also military support and the promise of support if under threat.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Pong said:

    daodao said:

    I'm a longtime PB reader, and was an occasional poster (back in the disqus days!), and now I'm back.

    I've also been a longtime small-c conservative with an interest in politics but was never actively involved. No more.

    Today my slowly simmering blood finally boiled.

    The seething rage, hate and threats being directed toward the country I love by people who are now clearly & actively trying to damage it has caused me to sign up for a Conservative party membership.

    The gloves are off and now is the time to actively support & campaign the only people with the will and the ability to defend the country I love!

    I wonder how many people are thinking the same thing today!

    TM should have kept her feelings under wraps; she has demeaned herself (and the UK) by her childish petulance today. This tweet from NS sums it up well "UK needs best possible Brexit deal and has limited leverage, so for PM to poison atmosphere for partisan reasons is deeply irresponsible". Car crash Brexit looms.
    I see , so its allright for Junker to throw his toys out of the pram and "leak" confidential discussions of which there is zero proof, but when the UK reacts and says its not happy with the way the EUI is behaving, "its poisoning the atmosphere".. LOL
    "delusional" and "on another planet" are perfectly acceptable terms for the EU to use of the UK, doncha know?

    May's comments were aimed at other EU governments who may be pissed off at EU Commussion meddling in domestic affairs.
    May's comments were aimed at readers of the sun, the mirror and the daily mail.

    Nobody else came into the equation.
    ie -'the thickos'
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 7,655

    The UK is interfering in the French election:
    https://twitter.com/nigel_farage/status/859883811064209408

    Leavers for Fascists is one of the more disturbing trends of 2017.

    I hope no one gambled too much money on the running commentary on pb last night. The unwary might have been shocked to wake up this morning to find that Emmanuel Macron polled as the comprehensive winner:

    https://twitter.com/msmithsonpb/status/859895608571813888
    I understand you're on a wind up and we did this last week, but will you please outline what is fascist about MLP? As I said last week its the most overused word in the country these days, its lost its original meaning.

    Oh, and I'd be grateful if you replied with an answer rather than a question.
    If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck:

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.784504

    But Leavers who have expressed a preference are overwhelmingly keen to see the French vote for a party leader of this type.

    It all fits in with their intensely relaxed attitude to xenophobic lies.
    Poor effort tbh, you really have lost it which is very amusing.

    I'd suggest your beef is with the millions of French that are about to vote for her rather than a handful of those who voted Leave in the UK who give a fuck.
    UK proles are inherently much more loathsome than foreign proles, and everything that happens is evidence of the fact. Le Pen uptick in polls? UK proles loathsome. Trump does better than expected in the mid-terms? UK proles loathsome. NASA probe detects evidence of primitive life forms on Enceladus? UK proles loathsome.

    And I am off to the polling station to vote for whichever candidate has the least foreign-sounding surname.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    IanB2 said:

    Allister Heath:

    The EU's attempt at First World War-style reparations revenge will only make Britain more united

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/03/brussels-bid-make-britain-worse-exposes-economic-illiterates/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

    Yes, this is the fantasy of wealthy, right-wing Brexiteers. We will fight them on the beaches, we will never surrender, white cliffs of Dover, Land of Hope and Glory. It will win May a huge majority at the GE. And then what? Once we have walked out of the EU with no deal and inflicted massive harm on ourselves, what happens then? Boris will get to say lots of hilarious things about foreigners and the Second World War; we can wave Union Jacks. But after a bit that may wear a bit thin. May has promised us strength and stability. Those struggling to get by are going to be better off, she has vowed. Everything will change for the better. You never know, people might just remember those promises and ask what happened to them.
    I think that is a perfect description of the current situation. Almost poetic in its imagery ;)

    Accurate nonetheless ...
    Bread and circuses. Without the bread.
    You think we can afford circuses? The people will amuse themselves with balls made of bundles of worthless sterling.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    edited May 2017
    justin124 said:

    Pong said:

    daodao said:

    I'm a longtime PB reader, and was an occasional poster (back in the disqus days!), and now I'm back.

    I've also been a longtime small-c conservative with an interest in politics but was never actively involved. No more.

    Today my slowly simmering blood finally boiled.

    The seething rage, hate and threats being directed toward the country I love by people who are now clearly & actively trying to damage it has caused me to sign up for a Conservative party membership.

    The gloves are off and now is the time to actively support & campaign the only people with the will and the ability to defend the country I love!

    I wonder how many people are thinking the same thing today!

    TM should have kept her feelings under wraps; she has demeaned herself (and the UK) by her childish petulance today. This tweet from NS sums it up well "UK needs best possible Brexit deal and has limited leverage, so for PM to poison atmosphere for partisan reasons is deeply irresponsible". Car crash Brexit looms.
    I see , so its allright for Junker to throw his toys out of the pram and "leak" confidential discussions of which there is zero proof, but when the UK reacts and says its not happy with the way the EUI is behaving, "its poisoning the atmosphere".. LOL
    "delusional" and "on another planet" are perfectly acceptable terms for the EU to use of the UK, doncha know?

    May's comments were aimed at other EU governments who may be pissed off at EU Commussion meddling in domestic affairs.
    May's comments were aimed at readers of the sun, the mirror and the daily mail.

    Nobody else came into the equation.
    ie -'the thickos'
    They'll be a bit disappointed - most of them are more restrained in headline than I was expecting. Which is not to say particularly restrained.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,927
    kle4 said:

    theakes said:

    A poll in the Hertfordshire Advertiser of 1000 people in St Albans gives:-
    Lib Dem 61%, Cons 17%, Labour13%, UKIP 5%, Greens 4%, I have no idea how scientfic that is but it does seem a significant sort of lead.
    I recall the Eevening Sentinel in Stoke did a poll a coupole of days before the by election, said it was neck and neck between UKIP and Labour, that was wrong.

    These sorts of online newspaper polls are fairly inaccurate thought. It's easy for activists to band together and influence them. While I wish that poll were true, I suspect it's not.
    I think Matt Singh did a piece awhile back on some American 'poll' through the newspaper decades ago, millions of respondents, which ended up way off for that and other reasons.
    presumably the famous Literary Digest vs Gallop poll?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Literary_Digest
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,566
    Ignoring some of the trolling going on by SeanF. (which admittedly is very funny in the response it gets from the Remoaners) I am really not sure anyone with sense wants to see MLP win in France. Whatever we may think of the EU, a win by FN will destabilise our nearest neighbour and make dealing with things like the migrant issues or getting a reasonable deal on Brexit miles more difficult. It might have some amusement value for some people but in the end it will not be good for Britain and certainly not good for France.

    I believe SeanF in the past has commented about how he would not have liked a UKIP Government. Many of us only felt safe voting for them because we knew they would never be anything more than a glorified pressure group. The same reason should apply to FN and MLP.
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,816
    MaxPB said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @FraserNelson: Britain must get ready to walk away from Brexit negotiations - leading article in the new @spectator https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/britain-must-get-ready-to-walk-away-from-brexit-negotiations/

    The press do seem to be talking up car crash Brexit

    The mood music is that way from both sides, it's sensible to prepare for it even if it is just talk.

    No national leader in the EU27 has talked in the way May has talked.
    No, but the head of the EU has had quotes attributed to him which he has not denied, from an allegedly very close source.

    But thats ok?

    Nope, it's not. But it was a report in a German language newspaper and it did not amount to interference in the UK election.

    It even made the TV news in Switzerland. It got very wide coverage in the UK press as well and I'm sure it was all over the TV channels as well.
    What is the coverage of Brexit like in Switzerland generally? Is it quite sympathetic or do they not care?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,209
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    It's a statement of fact. You seemed like a nice guy before. Since then you laid into Plato in very personal terms on several occasions, you've accused me of showing off when I cite my sources, and now you impugn my charitable motives.

    I've no interest in any further conversation with you.

    Plato laid into me as well, sometimes using similar nasty non-arguments to the one you just have (and worse).

    Perhaps I haven't changed, and you're just not used to your arguments not being robustly challenged?

    "you've accused me of showing off when I cite my sources"

    Well, you continually claimed that you were not one of the establishment, and then talk (often the same day) about the figures of the establishment you've talked to. Worse, you use those conversations as 'evidence' for what you're saying.

    "and now you impugn my charitable motives."

    I know you do a lot of good work for charity, and I admire that. But that admiration is slightly lessened with what you've said over the Garden Bridge.
    The Garden Bridge isn't charitable in my view. It's a tool for economic regeneration.
    Lol.

    Was an investigation done into whether the bridge was a better tool of 'economic regeneration' than any other use of the projected >£200 million cost, or was a similar process undergone to the awarding of the contracts?

    As an example, the Millennium Bridge opened in 2000 and cost £18 million.

    Your defence of the project has got increasingly ridiculous, hysterical and nasty.

    Then there's this:
    https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/new-foi-reveals-early-fears-over-escalating-garden-bridge-budget/10019517.article
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,480
    edited May 2017

    Ignoring some of the trolling going on by SeanF. (which admittedly is very funny in the response it gets from the Remoaners) I am really not sure anyone with sense wants to see MLP win in France. Whatever we may think of the EU, a win by FN will destabilise our nearest neighbour and make dealing with things like the migrant issues or getting a reasonable deal on Brexit miles more difficult. It might have some amusement value for some people but in the end it will not be good for Britain and certainly not good for France.

    I believe SeanF in the past has commented about how he would not have liked a UKIP Government. Many of us only felt safe voting for them because we knew they would never be anything more than a glorified pressure group. The same reason should apply to FN and MLP.

    A MLP win would also swiftly collapse the Euro and EU too making Brexit irrelevant, the EU may survive losing the UK but not France too
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,480
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Disastrous performance by Le Pen.
    I have switched my voting share betting from 35/40 and 40/45 to 30/35 and 35/40.

    It wasn't disastrous at all, Le Pen landed no knockout blow certainly but post debate polling showed little real change from before, the percentage who thought Macron won was roughly the same as those already voting for him once you exclude those who will abstain on Sunday
    The BBC updates made it seem Le Pen gave a decent account of herself but macron was and is comfortably ahead, which is for the best. Just a question of if she can break into the 40s.
    Yes nothing changed really , a 60 40 result still likely
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,364


    Lol.

    Was an investigation done into whether the bridge was a better tool of 'economic regeneration' than any other use of the projected >£200 million cost, or was a similar process undergone to the awarding of the contracts?

    As an example, the Millennium Bridge opened in 2000 and cost £18 million.

    Your defence of the project has got increasingly ridiculous, hysterical and nasty.

    Then there's this:
    https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/new-foi-reveals-early-fears-over-escalating-garden-bridge-budget/10019517.article

    Margaret Hodge's report into the Garden Bridge is damning on a number of levels. In particular, the report noted the difficulty of obtaining records of meetings and decisions taken from those involved. It appears there was almost no minute taking or record keeping and decisions were taken verbally, outside meetings and not recorded.

    As a lesson in how not to be accountable with public money, it's a masterclass. Sadly, in the era of Freedom of Information, it's all too representative of how some public bodies choose to comport themselves - take no minutes, leave no trace, there is nor evidence or audit trail if anyone comes looking.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,927

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    It's a statement of fact. You seemed like a nice guy before. Since then you laid into Plato in very personal terms on several occasions, you've accused me of showing off when I cite my sources, and now you impugn my charitable motives.

    I've no interest in any further conversation with you.

    Plato laid into me as well, sometimes using similar nasty non-arguments to the one you just have (and worse).

    Perhaps I haven't changed, and you're just not used to your arguments not being robustly challenged?

    "you've accused me of showing off when I cite my sources"

    Well, you continually claimed that you were not one of the establishment, and then talk (often the same day) about the figures of the establishment you've talked to. Worse, you use those conversations as 'evidence' for what you're saying.

    "and now you impugn my charitable motives."

    I know you do a lot of good work for charity, and I admire that. But that admiration is slightly lessened with what you've said over the Garden Bridge.
    The Garden Bridge isn't charitable in my view. It's a tool for economic regeneration.
    Lol.

    Was an investigation done into whether the bridge was a better tool of 'economic regeneration' than any other use of the projected >£200 million cost, or was a similar process undergone to the awarding of the contracts?

    As an example, the Millennium Bridge opened in 2000 and cost £18 million.

    Your defence of the project has got increasingly ridiculous, hysterical and nasty.

    Then there's this:
    https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/new-foi-reveals-early-fears-over-escalating-garden-bridge-budget/10019517.article
    Please don't respond to any more of my posts. I have no interest in further dialogue with you.

    I will extend you the same courtesy.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Ignoring some of the trolling going on by SeanF. (which admittedly is very funny in the response it gets from the Remoaners) I am really not sure anyone with sense wants to see MLP win in France. Whatever we may think of the EU, a win by FN will destabilise our nearest neighbour and make dealing with things like the migrant issues or getting a reasonable deal on Brexit miles more difficult. It might have some amusement value for some people but in the end it will not be good for Britain and certainly not good for France.

    I believe SeanF in the past has commented about how he would not have liked a UKIP Government. Many of us only felt safe voting for them because we knew they would never be anything more than a glorified pressure group. The same reason should apply to FN and MLP.

    Yes but the popularity of FN in France is much higher than that of UKIP here. I have zero interest in French politics and am increasingly indifferent to it here, but there are reasons why MLP has got to the final two.

    Its easy to call these people ignorant, fascist, racist xenophobes in the way they did to Trump supporters, but it doesn't change the fact that millions of French people will vote for her.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Sean_F said:

    The UK is interfering in the French election:
    https://twitter.com/nigel_farage/status/859883811064209408

    Leavers for Fascists is one of the more disturbing trends of 2017.

    I hope no one gambled too much money on the running commentary on pb last night. The unwary might have been shocked to wake up this morning to find that Emmanuel Macron polled as the comprehensive winner:

    https://twitter.com/msmithsonpb/status/859895608571813888
    I understand you're on a wind up and we did this last week, but will you please outline what is fascist about MLP? As I said last week its the most overused word in the country these days, its lost its original meaning.

    Oh, and I'd be grateful if you replied with an answer rather than a question.
    If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck:

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.784504

    But Leavers who have expressed a preference are overwhelmingly keen to see the French vote for a party leader of this type.

    It all fits in with their intensely relaxed attitude to xenophobic lies.
    Poor effort tbh, you really have lost it which is very amusing.

    I'd suggest your beef is with the millions of French that are about to vote for her rather than a handful of those who voted Leave in the UK who give a fuck.
    I have no beef with the French I do have a beef with those fascist-sympathising backwards-rationalising Leavers who are dismantling everything decent about this country in pursuit of their bizarre hobbyhorse.
    We wish to establish fascist States on both sides of the Channel.
    But our fascist one will be better. More fascisty.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    stodge said:


    Lol.

    Was an investigation done into whether the bridge was a better tool of 'economic regeneration' than any other use of the projected >£200 million cost, or was a similar process undergone to the awarding of the contracts?

    As an example, the Millennium Bridge opened in 2000 and cost £18 million.

    Your defence of the project has got increasingly ridiculous, hysterical and nasty.

    Then there's this:
    https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/new-foi-reveals-early-fears-over-escalating-garden-bridge-budget/10019517.article

    Margaret Hodge's report into the Garden Bridge is damning on a number of levels. In particular, the report noted the difficulty of obtaining records of meetings and decisions taken from those involved. It appears there was almost no minute taking or record keeping and decisions were taken verbally, outside meetings and not recorded.

    As a lesson in how not to be accountable with public money, it's a masterclass. Sadly, in the era of Freedom of Information, it's all too representative of how some public bodies choose to comport themselves - take no minutes, leave no trace, there is nor evidence or audit trail if anyone comes looking.

    Yep. Disgraceful behaviour, which sure you can get away with and things will be fine plenty of times, but when things go wrong...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,209
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    It's a statement of fact. You seemed like a nice guy before. Since then you laid into Plato in very personal terms on several occasions, you've accused me of showing off when I cite my sources, and now you impugn my charitable motives.

    I've no interest in any further conversation with you.

    Plato laid into me as well, sometimes using similar nasty non-arguments to the one you just have (and worse).

    Perhaps I haven't changed, and you're just not used to your arguments not being robustly challenged?

    "you've accused me of showing off when I cite my sources"

    Well, you continually claimed that you were not one of the establishment, and then talk (often the same day) about the figures of the establishment you've talked to. Worse, you use those conversations as 'evidence' for what you're saying.

    "and now you impugn my charitable motives."

    I know you do a lot of good work for charity, and I admire that. But that admiration is slightly lessened with what you've said over the Garden Bridge.
    The Garden Bridge isn't charitable in my view. It's a tool for economic regeneration.
    Lol.

    Was an investigation done into whether the bridge was a better tool of 'economic regeneration' than any other use of the projected >£200 million cost, or was a similar process undergone to the awarding of the contracts?

    As an example, the Millennium Bridge opened in 2000 and cost £18 million.

    Your defence of the project has got increasingly ridiculous, hysterical and nasty.

    Then there's this:
    https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/new-foi-reveals-early-fears-over-escalating-garden-bridge-budget/10019517.article
    Please don't respond to any more of my posts. I have no interest in further dialogue with you.

    I will extend you the same courtesy.
    Nope. If you say something interesting (as you often do) I'd like to respond to you. Please feel free to do the same to me.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 14,945
    edited May 2017
    There seems to be a strong affinity between Leavers, Le Penn and the Fascists and Trump and the Alt Right. If this is the dystopian future that Leaving the EU is going to lbring I hope we revert to 60's style protests and do all we can to bring this rotten edifice down.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,013
    GeoffM said:

    Sean_F said:

    The UK is interfering in the French election:
    https://twitter.com/nigel_farage/status/859883811064209408

    Leavers for Fascists is one of the more disturbing trends of 2017.

    I hope no one gambled too much money on the running commentary on pb last night. The unwary might have been shocked to wake up this morning to find that Emmanuel Macron polled as the comprehensive winner:

    https://twitter.com/msmithsonpb/status/859895608571813888
    I understand you're on a wind up and we did this last week, but will you please outline what is fascist about MLP? As I said last week its the most overused word in the country these days, its lost its original meaning.

    Oh, and I'd be grateful if you replied with an answer rather than a question.
    If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck:

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.784504

    But Leavers who have expressed a preference are overwhelmingly keen to see the French vote for a party leader of this type.

    It all fits in with their intensely relaxed attitude to xenophobic lies.
    Poor effort tbh, you really have lost it which is very amusing.

    I'd suggest your beef is with the millions of French that are about to vote for her rather than a handful of those who voted Leave in the UK who give a fuck.
    I have no beef with the French I do have a beef with those fascist-sympathising backwards-rationalising Leavers who are dismantling everything decent about this country in pursuit of their bizarre hobbyhorse.
    We wish to establish fascist States on both sides of the Channel.
    But our fascist one will be better. More fascisty.
    And more proley!
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,566

    Ignoring some of the trolling going on by SeanF. (which admittedly is very funny in the response it gets from the Remoaners) I am really not sure anyone with sense wants to see MLP win in France. Whatever we may think of the EU, a win by FN will destabilise our nearest neighbour and make dealing with things like the migrant issues or getting a reasonable deal on Brexit miles more difficult. It might have some amusement value for some people but in the end it will not be good for Britain and certainly not good for France.

    I believe SeanF in the past has commented about how he would not have liked a UKIP Government. Many of us only felt safe voting for them because we knew they would never be anything more than a glorified pressure group. The same reason should apply to FN and MLP.

    Yes but the popularity of FN in France is much higher than that of UKIP here. I have zero interest in French politics and am increasingly indifferent to it here, but there are reasons why MLP has got to the final two.

    Its easy to call these people ignorant, fascist, racist xenophobes in the way they did to Trump supporters, but it doesn't change the fact that millions of French people will vote for her.

    I am not attacking those who vote for her at all. They do so for a million different reasons and I am sure most of them are very justified. All I am saying is that in the end I don't think anyone who wants what is best for either the UK or France should be hoping for her to win.
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,816

    Ignoring some of the trolling going on by SeanF. (which admittedly is very funny in the response it gets from the Remoaners) I am really not sure anyone with sense wants to see MLP win in France. Whatever we may think of the EU, a win by FN will destabilise our nearest neighbour and make dealing with things like the migrant issues or getting a reasonable deal on Brexit miles more difficult. It might have some amusement value for some people but in the end it will not be good for Britain and certainly not good for France.

    I believe SeanF in the past has commented about how he would not have liked a UKIP Government. Many of us only felt safe voting for them because we knew they would never be anything more than a glorified pressure group. The same reason should apply to FN and MLP.

    That very same reasoning may be what helps Labour hold on in June!

  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Disastrous performance by Le Pen.
    I have switched my voting share betting from 35/40 and 40/45 to 30/35 and 35/40.

    It wasn't disastrous at all, Le Pen landed no knockout blow certainly but post debate polling showed little real change from before, the percentage who thought Macron won was roughly the same as those already voting for him once you exclude those who will abstain on Sunday
    The BBC updates made it seem Le Pen gave a decent account of herself but macron was and is comfortably ahead, which is for the best. Just a question of if she can break into the 40s.
    Yes nothing changed really , a 60 40 result still likely
    Did SeanT ever disclose what his juicy bit of scandal about Macron was? Hope no PBerstumped up the £1 million he was asking for :lol:
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,013
    Just when you thought things couldn't get any worse for SLAB....

    Setback for Kezia Dugdale after her spokesman quits post for Scotrail

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15263149.Setback_for_Kezia_Dugdale_after_her_spokesman_quits_post_for_Scotrail/

    At least he's staying until the GE.....
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,566

    Ignoring some of the trolling going on by SeanF. (which admittedly is very funny in the response it gets from the Remoaners) I am really not sure anyone with sense wants to see MLP win in France. Whatever we may think of the EU, a win by FN will destabilise our nearest neighbour and make dealing with things like the migrant issues or getting a reasonable deal on Brexit miles more difficult. It might have some amusement value for some people but in the end it will not be good for Britain and certainly not good for France.

    I believe SeanF in the past has commented about how he would not have liked a UKIP Government. Many of us only felt safe voting for them because we knew they would never be anything more than a glorified pressure group. The same reason should apply to FN and MLP.

    That very same reasoning may be what helps Labour hold on in June!

    Yep possible although against that I think there is a strong element within Labour hoping for an absolutely catastrophic defeat as a means of finally getting rid of Corbyn.
  • JenSJenS Posts: 85
    The Macron Le Pen debate was great television but then I like politics and I like boxing and I like football. It was much more exciting than bland scripted soundbites and the safety-first courtesies of our own election debates, and the zingers seemed spontaneous rather than the US-style crafted and focus grouped headline-chasers that English language politicians go for.

    But the public didn't like it.

    It's like PMQs. It's rowdy and the public hate it. They want everyone to get along. That's why "I agree with Nick" was so great for the Lib Dems.

    The difference between the French debate and PMQs is that far fewer people watch PMQs.

    Tony Blair realised that people prefer bland.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,232
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Charles said:



    My office is within 50 yards of one end of the Bridge. It would have helped with the economic regeneration of a neglected part of central London. That's all I really care about.

    "Economic regeneration of a neglected part of central London"...is that some sort of joke?

    No.

    The North Bank (wedged between the Strand/Fleet St, Waterloo Bridge and Blackfriars Bridge) is relatively neglected. The Southbank has been very successfully regenerated; there is always a lot of focus on Trafalgar Square, Soho, etc, but in between there's no attention paid.
    And the tens of millions spent on a bridge (and what was it spent on, and who got it) was the best way of helping that area?

    The bridge had no purpose, as the report shows. Saying it would help the locals is just desperate floundering. Such benefits should be low-priority positive side effects of a bridge, not the reason.
    "My office is within 50 yards of one end of the Bridge. It would have helped with the economic regeneration of a neglected part of central London. That's all I really care about." is the most marvellous bit of cognitive dissonance I have seen in recent years. I want nice stuff within 50 yards of my office, and the taxpayer to foot the bill. There are traditions going as far back as we have history for of the rich paying out of their own pockets to beautify civic spaces for the benefit of all. Why, now that the rich are richer than they have ever been, invert the procedure?

    Perhaps the contractors would accept payment in frequent flyer miles or whatever they are.

    It takes a lot to turn me sans-culotte before breakfast, but really...
    I must confess I'm almost always sans cullote before breakfast, and sometimes during.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,013
    edited May 2017
    Roger said:

    There seems to be a strong affinity between Leavers, Le Penn and the Fascists and Trump and the Alt Right. If this is the dystopian future that Leaving the EU is going to lbring I hope we revert to 60's style protests and do all we can to bring this rotten edifice down.

    Roger - you can't have seen OGH Tweet:

    According to Ipsos Macron leads in all regions of France except the one favoured most by British migrants - Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur

    Motes & beams, old chap, motes & beams.....
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,369
    All getting a bit fraught on here this morning. Five weeks still to go...

    When's the German election?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,219
    Roger said:

    There seems to be a strong affinity between Leavers, Le Penn and the Fascists and Trump and the Alt Right. If this is the dystopian future that Leaving the EU is going to lbring I hope we revert to 60's style protests and do all we can to bring this rotten edifice down.

    If you want a vision of the future, think of a boot trampling a human face. Forever.
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,720
    justin124 said:

    Pong said:

    daodao said:

    I'm a longtime PB reader, and was an occasional poster (back in the disqus days!), and now I'm back.

    I've also been a longtime small-c conservative with an interest in politics but was never actively involved. No more.

    Today my slowly simmering blood finally boiled.

    The seething rage, hate and threats being directed toward the country I love by people who are now clearly & actively trying to damage it has caused me to sign up for a Conservative party membership.

    The gloves are off and now is the time to actively support & campaign the only people with the will and the ability to defend the country I love!

    I wonder how many people are thinking the same thing today!

    TM should have kept her feelings under wraps; she has demeaned herself (and the UK) by her childish petulance today. This tweet from NS sums it up well "UK needs best possible Brexit deal and has limited leverage, so for PM to poison atmosphere for partisan reasons is deeply irresponsible". Car crash Brexit looms.
    I see , so its allright for Junker to throw his toys out of the pram and "leak" confidential discussions of which there is zero proof, but when the UK reacts and says its not happy with the way the EUI is behaving, "its poisoning the atmosphere".. LOL
    "delusional" and "on another planet" are perfectly acceptable terms for the EU to use of the UK, doncha know?

    May's comments were aimed at other EU governments who may be pissed off at EU Commussion meddling in domestic affairs.
    May's comments were aimed at readers of the sun, the mirror and the daily mail.

    Nobody else came into the equation.
    ie -'the thickos'
    Oh dear - maybe only the non-thickos should have the vote.
  • Sean_F said:

    The UK is interfering in the French election:
    https://twitter.com/nigel_farage/status/859883811064209408

    Leavers for Fascists is one of the more disturbing trends of 2017.

    I hope no one gambled too much money on the running commentary on pb last night. The unwary might have been shocked to wake up this morning to find that Emmanuel Macron polled as the comprehensive winner:

    https://twitter.com/msmithsonpb/status/859895608571813888
    I understand you're on a wind up and we did this last week, but will you please outline what is fascist about MLP? As I said last week its the most overused word in the country these days, its lost its original meaning.

    Oh, and I'd be grateful if you replied with an answer rather than a question.
    If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck:

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.784504

    But Leavers who have expressed a preference are overwhelmingly keen to see the French vote for a party leader of this type.

    It all fits in with their intensely relaxed attitude to xenophobic lies.
    Poor effort tbh, you really have lost it which is very amusing.

    I'd suggest your beef is with the millions of French that are about to vote for her rather than a handful of those who voted Leave in the UK who give a fuck.
    I have no beef with the French I do have a beef with those fascist-sympathising backwards-rationalising Leavers who are dismantling everything decent about this country in pursuit of their bizarre hobbyhorse.
    We wish to establish fascist States on both sides of the Channel.
    Our Augusto Pinochet on this side with their Rodrigo Duterte on the other.

    :smiley:
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,232
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    It's a statement of fact. You seemed like a nice guy before. Since then you laid into Plato in very personal terms on several occasions, you've accused me of showing off when I cite my sources, and now you impugn my charitable motives.

    I've no interest in any further conversation with you.

    Plato laid into me as well, sometimes using similar nasty non-arguments to the one you just have (and worse).

    Perhaps I haven't changed, and you're just not used to your arguments not being robustly challenged?

    "you've accused me of showing off when I cite my sources"

    Well, you continually claimed that you were not one of the establishment, and then talk (often the same day) about the figures of the establishment you've talked to. Worse, you use those conversations as 'evidence' for what you're saying.

    "and now you impugn my charitable motives."

    I know you do a lot of good work for charity, and I admire that. But that admiration is slightly lessened with what you've said over the Garden Bridge.
    The Garden Bridge isn't charitable in my view. It's a tool for economic regeneration.
    Lol.

    Was an investigation done into whether the bridge was a better tool of 'economic regeneration' than any other use of the projected >£200 million cost, or was a similar process undergone to the awarding of the contracts?

    As an example, the Millennium Bridge opened in 2000 and cost £18 million.

    Your defence of the project has got increasingly ridiculous, hysterical and nasty.

    Then there's this:
    https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/new-foi-reveals-early-fears-over-escalating-garden-bridge-budget/10019517.article
    Please don't respond to any more of my posts. I have no interest in further dialogue with you.

    I will extend you the same courtesy.
    You do know there's a 'don't respond' option you can take yourself?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,719

    Ignoring some of the trolling going on by SeanF. (which admittedly is very funny in the response it gets from the Remoaners) I am really not sure anyone with sense wants to see MLP win in France. Whatever we may think of the EU, a win by FN will destabilise our nearest neighbour and make dealing with things like the migrant issues or getting a reasonable deal on Brexit miles more difficult. It might have some amusement value for some people but in the end it will not be good for Britain and certainly not good for France.

    I believe SeanF in the past has commented about how he would not have liked a UKIP Government. Many of us only felt safe voting for them because we knew they would never be anything more than a glorified pressure group. The same reason should apply to FN and MLP.

    Yes but the popularity of FN in France is much higher than that of UKIP here. I have zero interest in French politics and am increasingly indifferent to it here, but there are reasons why MLP has got to the final two.

    Its easy to call these people ignorant, fascist, racist xenophobes in the way they did to Trump supporters, but it doesn't change the fact that millions of French people will vote for her.

    I am not attacking those who vote for her at all. They do so for a million different reasons and I am sure most of them are very justified. All I am saying is that in the end I don't think anyone who wants what is best for either the UK or France should be hoping for her to win.
    It's worth remembering that this is actually a presidential election. So it's worth remembering that people are voting for a person and not necessarily the party/movement.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,963

    All getting a bit fraught on here this morning. Five weeks still to go...

    When's the German election?

    24th September, which I think is 20 weeks away.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Ignoring some of the trolling going on by SeanF. (which admittedly is very funny in the response it gets from the Remoaners) I am really not sure anyone with sense wants to see MLP win in France. Whatever we may think of the EU, a win by FN will destabilise our nearest neighbour and make dealing with things like the migrant issues or getting a reasonable deal on Brexit miles more difficult. It might have some amusement value for some people but in the end it will not be good for Britain and certainly not good for France.

    I believe SeanF in the past has commented about how he would not have liked a UKIP Government. Many of us only felt safe voting for them because we knew they would never be anything more than a glorified pressure group. The same reason should apply to FN and MLP.

    Yes but the popularity of FN in France is much higher than that of UKIP here. I have zero interest in French politics and am increasingly indifferent to it here, but there are reasons why MLP has got to the final two.

    Its easy to call these people ignorant, fascist, racist xenophobes in the way they did to Trump supporters, but it doesn't change the fact that millions of French people will vote for her.

    I am not attacking those who vote for her at all. They do so for a million different reasons and I am sure most of them are very justified. All I am saying is that in the end I don't think anyone who wants what is best for either the UK or France should be hoping for her to win.
    I'll hold my hands up and admit I know little of her, the fact she wants out of the EU is a bonus. My point is that some people - not yourself - have no response other than to call supporters of Brexit, UKIP, FN, Trump as fascist, rascist, xenophobic proles without ever wondering why they're so popular.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,013
    It is the elections to the lower house of parliament which are key to ensuring his party En Marche! has a majority, enabling Macron to push through "the structural reforms he needs in order to convince Germany to strike a grand bargain over the euro", he says.

    "Without that majority, Macron risks becoming a lame duck candidate.

    "It's fears of a weak French president that many people believe that could open the door to a Marine Le Pen victory five years from now."


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/04/french-election-emmanuel-macron-facing-lame-duck-presidency/
  • RogerRoger Posts: 14,945

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    It's a statement of fact. You seemed like a nice guy before. Since then you laid into Plato in very personal terms on several occasions, you've accused me of showing off when I cite my sources, and now you impugn my charitable motives.

    I've no interest in any further conversation with you.

    Plato laid into me as well, sometimes using similar nasty non-arguments to the one you just have (and worse).

    Perhaps I haven't changed, and you're just not used to your arguments not being robustly challenged?

    "you've accused me of showing off when I cite my sources"

    Well, you continually claimed that you were not one of the establishment, and then talk (often the same day) about the figures of the establishment you've talked to. Worse, you use those conversations as 'evidence' for what you're saying.

    "and now you impugn my charitable motives."

    I know you do a lot of good work for charity, and I admire that. But that admiration is slightly lessened with what you've said over the Garden Bridge.
    The Garden Bridge isn't charitable in my view. It's a tool for economic regeneration.
    Lol.

    Was an investigation done into whether the bridge was a better tool of 'economic regeneration' than any other use of the projected >£200 million cost, or was a similar process undergone to the awarding of the contracts?

    As an example, the Millennium Bridge opened in 2000 and cost £18 million.

    Your defence of the project has got increasingly ridiculous, hysterical and nasty.

    Then there's this:
    https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/new-foi-reveals-early-fears-over-escalating-garden-bridge-budget/10019517.article
    Please don't respond to any more of my posts. I have no interest in further dialogue with you.

    I will extend you the same courtesy.
    You do know there's a 'don't respond' option you can take yourself?
    That way you don't get the last word or the chance for a pompous sign off
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,859

    MaxPB said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @FraserNelson: Britain must get ready to walk away from Brexit negotiations - leading article in the new @spectator https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/britain-must-get-ready-to-walk-away-from-brexit-negotiations/

    The press do seem to be talking up car crash Brexit

    The mood music is that way from both sides, it's sensible to prepare for it even if it is just talk.

    No national leader in the EU27 has talked in the way May has talked.
    No, but the head of the EU has had quotes attributed to him which he has not denied, from an allegedly very close source.

    But thats ok?

    Nope, it's not. But it was a report in a German language newspaper and it did not amount to interference in the UK election.

    It even made the TV news in Switzerland. It got very wide coverage in the UK press as well and I'm sure it was all over the TV channels as well.
    What is the coverage of Brexit like in Switzerland generally? Is it quite sympathetic or do they not care?
    It varies from being alarmingly negative to "we can make this work for Switzerland".
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,477
    Turnout officially "Slow" at my station. Tellers looked bored, very bored
This discussion has been closed.