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  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Pulpstar said:

    Nick Nack !
    What worries me is that nominations haven't closed yet, and the local Lab party is so fractured it's not inconceivable we see another well known and supported local enter the race, for what was quite literally a seat for life for the previous incumbent.

    This could yet be a really split 25% win on a low turnout, maybe even the Tories have a chance?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,317
    edited April 2017

    There is a live example from that time period. Russia's claim to the Kaliningrad oblast is based pretty much exclusively on possession. It was previously East Prussia and as such part of Germany. Germany has renounced its claim to East Prussia but, interestingly, Russia has no real positive claim.

    But the answer to your final question is unequivocally no. The Helsinki Final Act of 1975 prohibits the use of military force by any state in Europe against any other.

    "Article III: Inviolability of Frontiers

    The participating states regard as inviolable all one another's frontiers as well as the frontiers of all states in Europe and therefore they will refrain now and in the future from assaulting these frontiers.

    Accordingly, they will also refrain from any demand for, or act of, seizure and usurpation of part or all of the territory of any participating State.

    Article IV: Territorial Integrity of States

    The participating states will respect the territorial integrity of each of the participating states. Accordingly, they will refrain from any action inconsistent with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations against the territorial integrity, political independence or the unity of any participating state, and in particular from any such action constituting a threat or use of force.

    The participating states will likewise refrain from making each other's territory the object of military occupation or other direct or indirect measures of force in contravention of international law, or the object of acquisition by means of such measures or the threat of them. No such occupation or acquisition will be recognized as legal."

    Spain is not going to invade Gibraltar.
    Accordingly, they will also refrain from any demand for, or act of, seizure and usurpation of part or all of the territory of any participating State.

    Someone should tell Spain... :p

    Edit: apparently the articles aren't binding as it is not a treaty.
  • CyanCyan Posts: 1,262
    edited April 2017
    Pulpstar said:

    It has barely been a sovereign nation for a hundred years :p
    Probably beats Japan on the homogeneity of the population now though.
    Indeed, even where foreign service personnel were concerned. Iceland has no army and until 2006 it hosted the "Iceland Defence Force" of the US instead, with an understanding that the US wouldn't send anyone who was black. (Generally respected by the US, with a few exceptions, if anyone wants to quibble.)
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    welshowl said:

    Possibly so, but the equivalent of Ceuta and Melilla now (and couple of other little twiddly bits on/off the N African coast) would be the UK not having Portland, but occupying Calais and Cherbourg and still moaning to the Kingdom of Sicily about Portland and the runway they'd built on Chesil Beach.
    I think the contradiction in such a position can be maintained thanks to proximity. Gibraltar is right there, with a land border to mainland Spain. Ceuta and Melila are so very far away...
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    I think the contradiction in such a position can be maintained thanks to proximity. Gibraltar is right there, with a land border to mainland Spain. Ceuta and Melila are so very far away...
    French Guiana isn't on the Paris Metro either.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    TOPPING said:

    Yes it really does make you wonder in such a context why people make such a fuss about Israel and its various border claims.
    Israel-Palestine is a live issue. There is a question of realism here: how far back do you go?

    Perhaps if Scotland votes to go at some point in the future but Edinburgh wants to stay in the UK, then we should simply resurrect the Northumbrian claim to Lothian and keep it?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,161
    edited April 2017
    Nearly all of the population of Kaliningrad was expelled in 1945 and the Russians arranged for Ukrainians to move there against their will. (I'm interested in the subject because some of my family used to live there).
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,163
    Andy_JS said:

    Nearly all of the population of Kaliningrad was expelled in 1945 and the Russians arranged for Ukrainians to move there against their will. (I'm interested in the subject because some of my family used to live there).

    When you say 'the Russians', I suspect you mean 'a Georgian'.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    Israel-Palestine is a live issue. There is a question of realism here: how far back do you go?

    Perhaps if Scotland votes to go at some point in the future but Edinburgh wants to stay in the UK, then we should simply resurrect the Northumbrian claim to Lothian and keep it?
    You're not going back far enough. The Votadini were a British tribe. Edinburgh was Welsh before those bloody Germans turned up with their silly Anglo Saxon ways.......
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,527
    Do the people objecting to Ceuta think Turkey should give up Istanbul?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,017

    I think the contradiction in such a position can be maintained thanks to proximity. Gibraltar is right there, with a land border to mainland Spain. Ceuta and Melila are so very far away...
    Anybody mentioned the Channel Isles yet?
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Anybody mentioned the Channel Isles yet?
    Do the French?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,238
    edited April 2017
    TOPPING said:

    Yes it really does make you wonder in such a context why people make such a fuss about Israel and its various border claims.
    Perhaps because they are making ongoing acts of aggression and in breach of UN resolutions.

    It was interesting to see the Helsinki Treaty clauses that Alistair posted a few minutes ago. I would suggest that although obviously Israel is not in Europe, if it wants to be treated as a modern first world state with the support of European countries, it would not be unreasonable to expect it to act in accordance with the spirit of such European accords since they are rightly so important to us.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    Anybody mentioned the Channel Isles yet?
    That's different.

    That's the original remains of the Duchy of Normandy with its English (now British) offshoot to the north.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    Do the people objecting to Ceuta think Turkey should give up Istanbul?

    I (for one) am not objecting to Ceuta in the slightest. That's the point.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,163
    justin124 said:

    Except that the Crimea was handed over voluntarily by Krushchev in the 1950s - effectively a transfer from one USSR republic to another.
    What does that have to do with the price of fish? The transfer back certainly wasn't an administrative exercise.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,163

    Mike and myself rate Lord Hayward very highly

    Labour will lose 125 seats in this May's local elections, Lord Hayward predicts.
    LibDems to gain c100, Tories 100+ (taking seats off Ukip)

    Ukip to lose c100 seats in the locals, Lord Robert Hayward adds

    That sounds plausible. However, these are *England-only* scores, I assume? It will look a lot worse for Lab (and better for Con / LD / SNP) once you add in the Scottish and Welsh results.

    (Oh, and 'Mike and I', surely?)
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647

    Perhaps because they are making ongoing acts of aggression and in breach of UN resolutions.

    It was interesting to see the Helsinki Treaty clauses that Alistair posted a few minutes ago. I would suggest that although obviously Israel is not in Europe, if it wants to be treated as a modern first world state with the support of European countries, it would not be unreasonable to expect it to act in accordance with the spirit of such European accords since they are rightly so important to us.
    Treaty/schmeaty. It is a territorial dispute ongoing acts of aggression are all part of it. Always have been. Just because it's contemporary we can't start wanting new or different or any rules.

    I do agree about the needing to abide by European rules if they want European support, but that's I suppose a decision they've weighed up.
  • That sounds plausible. However, these are *England-only* scores, I assume? It will look a lot worse for Lab (and better for Con / LD / SNP) once you add in the Scottish and Welsh results.

    (Oh, and 'Mike and I', surely?)
    Yes England only.

    Mike and myself works perfectly fine.

    It is those who don't know how to use apostrophes that boil my piss, and those that don't understand the Oxford comma.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,238
    TOPPING said:

    Treaty/schmeaty. It is a territorial dispute ongoing acts of aggression are all part of it. Always have been. Just because it's contemporary we can't start wanting new or different or any rules.

    I do agree about the needing to abide by European rules if they want European support, but that's I suppose a decision they've weighed up.
    So you would have no problem then with any of the neighbouring countries attacking Israel and us letting them get on with it? As I remember you were rather exercised about the Russian action in East Ukraine. Is that somehow different?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,017

    Yes England only.

    Mike and myself works perfectly fine.

    It is those who don't know how to use apostrophes that boil my piss, and those that don't understand the Oxford comma.
    Is this you TSE?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08kys4c
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    Yes England only.

    Mike and myself works perfectly fine.

    It is those who don't know how to use apostrophes that boil my piss, and those that don't understand the Oxford comma.
    And then again there are those who use "fine" as an adverb!
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    And then again there are those who use "fine" as an adverb!
    A fine sentiment!
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited April 2017

    That sounds plausible. However, these are *England-only* scores, I assume? It will look a lot worse for Lab (and better for Con / LD / SNP) once you add in the Scottish and Welsh results.

    (Oh, and 'Mike and I', surely?)
    Since you would not say "Myself rate Lord Hayward very highly" but rather "I rate Lord Hayward very highly" then the correct form is "Mike and I rate Lord Hayward very highly"

    :naughty:
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    This must be one of the most bizarre legal actions against the Trump empire:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-39478417
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647

    So you would have no problem then with any of the neighbouring countries attacking Israel and us letting them get on with it? As I remember you were rather exercised about the Russian action in East Ukraine. Is that somehow different?
    It's not whether I have a problem or not, it's what is acceptable or what is the way of the world. Neighbouring states have attacked Israel in the past. What if they had won? We would today have a different set of facts on the ground. I'm sure you would be outside the embassy of Egypt to protest that they should reform Israel according to its original UN-determined borders.

    You are selectively applying rules and personal preferences, yes and treaties, to the way that the world forms itself and always has. Plus I challenge you (£5 to charity) to find a post where I commented on Ukraine (cue thousands of posts from me on the subject but I really don't remember any).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,096
    2nd place currently in Labour defences:

    20 LD
    126 UKIP
    81 Con
    22 Ind & Residents group
    6 Green.
    1 BNP

    How many will Labour lose that aren't in @AndyJS spreadsheet (Only goes up to 25% defenses) ?
    How many Lab/UKIP seats will be won by a 3rd place or lower party.
    How many gains by each of the other parties ?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    What does that have to do with the price of fish? The transfer back certainly wasn't an administrative exercise.
    ok - I had assumed you were referring to the original transfer!
  • Is this you TSE?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08kys4c
    No comment.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,442
    edited April 2017

    And then again there are those who use "fine" as an adverb!
    My favourite verb is enjoin, I suspect you know why.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Spain itself is the product of past Christian aggression against the Moorish Iberian peninsular. Gibraltar belonged to the Moors for 750 years. It belonged to Spain for 250 years. Maybe we should give it back to the Arabs.
    Indeed, its very name is Arabic, from jabal at-tariq = the mountain of the road (the North Africans, like Cubans, tend to swallow the last consonant, so the 'iq' is silent).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    edited April 2017
    Grr, is it just me, or has Vanilla behaviour when clicking links changed in the last couple of days?
    Clicking on links always used to open them in a new tab, but now they open in the current tab - which closes the thread. Really annoying.
    @rcs1000 @PBModerator @MikeSmithson is this configurable in the Vanilla console, and if so can we change it back please?
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Is this you TSE?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08kys4c

    at school I was taught that the Oxford comma was wrong (although I did not know the name of it until the US court case last week), even though I naturally would add it for clarity.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009

    Since when do the Gibraltarians, or the Falklanders, or the Ceutans constitute a nation?
    they make up nations as they go along
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009
    kle4 said:

    Teuchter? I'm not familiar with that one, I must say.
    usually used to refer to someone from the Highlands or at least north of Stirling
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009
    TGOHF said:

    Yes - all sorts of oppressed minorities are under constant threat down here

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/dad-five-branded-racist-fined-10137782

    "A dad-of-five has been branded a racist and banned from attending football matches for three years after calling a Scottish steward a "teuchter"."
    Good enough for him too, should have been in the slammer as well.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,317
    Sandpit said:

    Grr, is it just me, or has Vanilla behaviour when clicking links changed in the last couple of days?
    Clicking on links always used to open them in a new tab, but now they open in the current tab - which closes the thread. Really annoying.
    @rcs1000 @PBModerator @MikeSmithson is this configurable in the Vanilla console, and if so can we change it back please?

    If you middle mouse click on a link (or cmd-click on a mac) it'll open in a new tab.
  • NEW THREAD

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009

    No one would blink an eye at it in Glasgow (I've been called it and called myself it).

    The migrants that go down south can get very sensitive, as we see on here.
    Yes the ones with the inferiority complexes who slavishly try to ingratiate themselves with locals, could not cut it at home.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009
    TGOHF said:

    The Gibraltarians voted to stay in the EU but are grown up enough to accept the result and move on.

    For that they deserve more respect and loyalty than the Nat mafia running their operation squirrel in Holyrood.
    whine , whine , whine
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009

    You mention 'fast accession' - the SNP's argument in Sindyref1 was that it wouldn't have to leave the EU - but perhaps you could clarify what the SNP's current EU plans are?
    They are no business or concern of a tax exile on the Channel Islands. You will not have a say or a vote on eth matter so butt out Toom.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009
    TGOHF said:

    Lol - Nicola should definitely hold a wildcat referendum - suggest a North Korean sized victory for yes as everyone else would ignore the vote and campaign.
    more whine , whine , whine
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009

    We're both working class Yorkshiremen who've done good in life.
    or we could just keep laughing
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009

    Re Gibraltar - does Spain care about their tourist industry?

    they will be praying they can cut the beer swilling , sun reading chips and eggs bunch big time. Get increases from civilised countries.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    RobD said:

    If you middle mouse click on a link (or cmd-click on a mac) it'll open in a new tab.
    Indeed, but a straightforward single click used to do the same. It's horribly annoying and has definitely changed over the weekend. Guido's place suffers from the same problem with their side links, the behaviour navigates their users away from the site they're on already!
This discussion has been closed.