Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
Haven't you heard, those were unequal treaties forced on the totally helpless Spanish Empire by the British...
Clues today that Lord Howard was set up by Downing Street PR to ratchet up the warrior rhetoric. Planned, not a loose cannon, and presumably with the aim of boosting Mrs May's Falklands-style tough operator image with the more jingoistic press.
Comparisons with Galtieri are more apt than those with Thatcher, I would say.
Seems that way. Could be because war talk keeps the swivel-eyed, willy-waving hard Brexit boys away from second guessing the actual Brexit negotiations, which may end with a deal that is not to their liking.
1) We should respect the will of Gibraltarans to remain part of the Uk
2) But ignore the will of Scots to remain in the EU
Another referendum for Gibraltar
Options
1) In EU, Joint British & Spanish sovereignty, border remains as is. 2) No spanish sovereignty, WALLhard border with Spain. Navy blue Passports, guineas and groats.
Given we haven't a clue about the Irish border, the people of Gibraltar should be bracing themselves to be given to Spain to get a good Brexit deal for the rest of the UK. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
1) We should respect the will of Gibraltarans to remain part of the Uk
2) But ignore the will of Scots to remain in the EU
The Scots, English, Welsh and Northern Irish have agreed, to date, to subordinate many issues to the wider British interest and decision making. By being a part of the UK the Scots are agreed to be bound by UK wide, not just Scotland wide decisions.
It may well be that they feel the need to reassess that relationship in the light of this particular UK wide decision. But that is not the same as ignoring their will to remain in the EU - if they had wanted only their will to resolve that issue, they would have left the UK already, and could choose to exit the UK so that sort of thing does not happen again. We're respecting their will to be a part of the UK, and the UK as a whole decided about the EU, we shall now see if they regret the former as a result of the latter.
It's not a directly comparable situation.
When Gibraltar held a wildcat referendum to undermine the British government they forfeited any right to loyalty in return.
Lol - Nicola should definitely hold a wildcat referendum - suggest a North Korean sized victory for yes as everyone else would ignore the vote and campaign.
1) We should respect the will of Gibraltarans to remain part of the Uk
2) But ignore the will of Scots to remain in the EU
Another referendum for Gibraltar
Options
1) In EU, Joint British & Spanish sovereignty, border remains as is. 2) No spanish sovereignty, WALLhard border with Spain. Navy blue Passports, guineas and groats.
Given we haven't a clue about the Irish border, the people of Gibraltar should be bracing themselves to be given to Spain to get a good Brexit deal for the rest of the UK. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Hysterical, much?
Santander, fishing and 17 million visitors say Spain will not want to play silly buggers.....
The only hysterical people are Leavers like Lord Howard who wish to send 16 Air Assault Brigade and our Trident subs to The Rock.
And the hysterical people acting as though the EU was going to force us to give up the Rock, or that we should trade it over to get a good deal, as though a good deal was contingent upon such a thing.
Howard's rhetoric was overdone and an escalation, but this pretence it came out of nowhere when we've seen with our own eyes people suggesting the place would get transferred because the EU has us over a barrel (itself a ridiculously overdone and escalating comment from what the EU, and Spain for that matter, said), is just plain false.
1) We should respect the will of Gibraltarans to remain part of the Uk
2) But ignore the will of Scots to remain in the EU
Another referendum for Gibraltar
Options
1) In EU, Joint British & Spanish sovereignty, border remains as is. 2) No spanish sovereignty, WALLhard border with Spain. Navy blue Passports, guineas and groats.
Given we haven't a clue about the Irish border, the people of Gibraltar should be bracing themselves to be given to Spain to get a good Brexit deal for the rest of the UK. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
That's not right, we can impose a hard border out of spite.
Well quite. UK and Ire will work together to on what the Irish border looks like, we'll both co-operate to make life as easy as possible for our mutual interest which came from a British decision to leave the EU. The computer systems should be relatively simple to admin, with border stops by customs agents based on intelligence pretty much as happens now.
The key point being that the British will bend over backwards to help the ROI because it was a British decision to Leave the EU. Britain is under no obligation to behave the same way towards a Scotland that votes to leave the UK - that one will be an acrimonious divorce.
Clues today that Lord Howard was set up by Downing Street PR to ratchet up the warrior rhetoric. Planned, not a loose cannon, and presumably with the aim of boosting Mrs May's Falklands-style tough operator image with the more jingoistic press.
Comparisons with Galtieri are more apt than those with Thatcher, I would say.
Flag waving and froth whipping, the last refuge of a bunch of incompetent scoundrels.
1) We should respect the will of Gibraltarans to remain part of the Uk
2) But ignore the will of Scots to remain in the EU
Another referendum for Gibraltar
Options
1) In EU, Joint British & Spanish sovereignty, border remains as is. 2) No spanish sovereignty, WALLhard border with Spain. Navy blue Passports, guineas and groats.
Given we haven't a clue about the Irish border, the people of Gibraltar should be bracing themselves to be given to Spain to get a good Brexit deal for the rest of the UK. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
That's not right, we can impose a hard border out of spite.
Surely an independent Scotland would construct Nicola's Wall to keep the English out of their socialist utopia.
What a cruel bastard Hadrian was. Thousands of slaves died building that wall, all he needed was some third rate European football team at the border and the Scots would never have got through.
Should the TV and radio talking heads have said nothing at all about the actually important angle of the case?
What - that a bunch of women and girls have had their lives ripped apart?
That women and underage girls across the country are having their lives ripped apart in organised and systemic attacks perpetrated by a constituent element of our society that refuses point blank to assimilate and occasionally feels the need to kill us.
Most women are attacked by their husbands/partners
The majority of rapists know their victims too... "Only around 10% of rapes are committed by 'strangers'. Around 90% of rapes are committed by known men, and often by someone who the survivor has previously trusted or even loved."
1) We should respect the will of Gibraltarans to remain part of the Uk
2) But ignore the will of Scots to remain in the EU
Another referendum for Gibraltar
Options
1) In EU, Joint British & Spanish sovereignty, border remains as is. 2) No spanish sovereignty, WALLhard border with Spain. Navy blue Passports, guineas and groats.
Given we haven't a clue about the Irish border, the people of Gibraltar should be bracing themselves to be given to Spain to get a good Brexit deal for the rest of the UK. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Hysterical, much?
Santander, fishing and 17 million visitors say Spain will not want to play silly buggers.....
The only hysterical people are Leavers like Lord Howard who wish to send 16 Air Assault Brigade and our Trident subs to The Rock.
You're the one suggesting transfer of sovereignty.....
Which was something foretold by intelligent Remainers like William Hague and myself before the Brexit vote.
Besides which, it is in our interest to maintain the place as well as the Gibraltarians, so it isn't purely an issue of loyalty to them. The border is disrupted there already, and presumably will get worse, to what extent we try to make up for that is interesting, but there's not much else going on there, we're not going to change our stance on the locals deciding things, so the ball is in their court.
The only thing that should matter to the British government is the British interest. Saying that we respect the wishes of the local community to remain British does not give them carte blanche to drag us in to a fight with Spain - it's better for all concerned to go over their heads.
1) We should respect the will of Gibraltarans to remain part of the Uk
2) But ignore the will of Scots to remain in the EU
Another referendum for Gibraltar
Options
1) In EU, Joint British & Spanish sovereignty, border remains as is. 2) No spanish sovereignty, WALLhard border with Spain. Navy blue Passports, guineas and groats.
Given we haven't a clue about the Irish border, the people of Gibraltar should be bracing themselves to be given to Spain to get a good Brexit deal for the rest of the UK. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Hysterical, much?
Santander, fishing and 17 million visitors say Spain will not want to play silly buggers.....
The only hysterical people are Leavers like Lord Howard who wish to send 16 Air Assault Brigade and our Trident subs to The Rock.
You're the one suggesting transfer of sovereignty.....
Which was something foretold by intelligent Remainers like William Hague and myself before the Brexit vote.
A little harsh on William Hague, I'd say....
We're both working class Yorkshiremen who've done good in life.
If it is Melenchon vs Le Pen, I'll probably cut out for a moderate loss in all honesty. I am
1690 @ 1.97 Melenchon in that scenario.
I am the same. It would be very close.
Melenchon-Macron is the dream. Le Pen-Fillon the nightmare
There is next to zero chance of Melenchon v Macron, almost as little chance of Fillon v Macron a small chance of Fillon v Le Pen or Melenchon v Le Pen but a very high chance of Macron v Le Pen
Indeed. The polls are remarkably stable. All show Macron and Le Pen as the top 2. Macron at 23-26% MLP at 24-27%. In the absence of a late swing, seriously epic polling fail (no evidence for either at the moment) or a black swan event, then they should be the final two, regardless of Putin or anyone else.
1) We should respect the will of Gibraltarans to remain part of the Uk
2) But ignore the will of Scots to remain in the EU
Another referendum for Gibraltar
Options
1) In EU, Joint British & Spanish sovereignty, border remains as is. 2) No spanish sovereignty, WALLhard border with Spain. Navy blue Passports, guineas and groats.
Given we haven't a clue about the Irish border, the people of Gibraltar should be bracing themselves to be given to Spain to get a good Brexit deal for the rest of the UK. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Hysterical, much?
Santander, fishing and 17 million visitors say Spain will not want to play silly buggers.....
The only hysterical people are Leavers like Lord Howard who wish to send 16 Air Assault Brigade and our Trident subs to The Rock.
You're the one suggesting transfer of sovereignty.....
Which was something foretold by intelligent Remainers like William Hague and myself before the Brexit vote.
A little harsh on William Hague, I'd say....
We're both working class Yorkshiremen who've done good in life.
Melenchon is worth keeping onside at 48/50 btw, he has been rising and could benefit if Hamon drops further.
Macron +++ Melenchon + Le Pen - Fillon ---
Is my assessment of the situation.
Melenchon is potentially a threat to Macron. It seems plausible that, so far, the absence of a challenger from the left with any prospects has prompted some on the left to declare for Macron in the first round on a pragmatic basis, to ensure that there is at least one non-right wing candidate in the second round.
That means though that there is some potential for things to unwind for Macron if a challenger from the left does emerge. It's quite plausible now to see Melenchon's surge continuing as people give up on Hamon. So support on the left consolidates around Melenchon, so that Hamon declines into single figures allowing Melenchon to consistently poll in the high teens. At that point, there is the prospect of Melenchon adding a couple of % more from Macron to get him into the bottom 20s, at Macron's expense. At that point we have effectively a three way contest for who is to join Le Pen in the second round - Macron, Fillon or Melenchon.
Meanwhile the Russian poll is bunkum and could quite easily help Macron by identifying Fillon as the Kremlin's candidate.
That is a very plausible scenario. The higher Melenchon rises in the polls, the more likely others will switch to him, because up until now, a lot will have seen a vote for Melenchon as a wasted vote.
And given that Melenchon's surge came on the back of the last tv debate and we are on the eve of another tv debate, Melenchon is certainly one to keep very much onside. If he can go level with or even overtake Fillon in just one (non Russian) poll, then the resultant media publicity will see his odds crash.
The poll putting Melenchon on 19.5% might be an outlier but it's certainly an amber warning light. My guess is that it is an outlier, simply because there's no obvious reason why his rating should jump five points right now. The trend upwards off the back of the debate: yes. A sudden surge? No.
However, he's now a serious runner and the 40/1 widely available (never mind the 80/1 with sportingbet quoted on oddschecker), is good value. i still don't like the 7/2 for Le Pen but for the first time you can see a realistic route for her opening up to the Elysee. I'd make her more like 8/1.
The value bet is I think 66/1 to see Le Pen v Melenchon in the final two.
Ladbrokes think so, they are offering it at only 12/1.
1) We should respect the will of Gibraltarans to remain part of the Uk
2) But ignore the will of Scots to remain in the EU
1. Gibraltar isn't part of the UK. That much said, if you suggest that Gibraltarian self-determination may be ignored then presumably Scottish self-determination may be disregarded in the same casual manner? I don't think that's sensible.
2. The UK as a whole voted to leave the EU, and every vote was equal. Moreover, we do not have a federal constitution which stipulates that any of the constituent parts of the UK can veto such a decision: you might think that we should have such a thing, but you could just as easily argue that England and Wales should've been entitled to hold immediate independence referendums of their own if Scotland and Northern Ireland had had power of veto to begin with. I'm not sure that talking about alternative constitutions in alternative universes gets us very far. Bottom line is, Scotland can't stay in the EU whilst England and Wales leave it, given that it is part of the UK - this is impossible.
3. If the people of Scotland viewed remaining in the EU as more important than remaining in the UK, then they could demand independence and apply to go back into the EU, and indeed the pro-secession majority in the Scottish Parliament has voted for this. The UK Government is stonewalling on the entirely understandable grounds that (a) it's only two-and-a-half years since the last independence referendum, (b) it has its hands completely full dealing with the vote to leave the EU first, and (c) it believes that most of the available evidence suggests that the majority of Scottish public opinion is against a referendum at this time. However, if Scottish public opinion changes then the UK Government will be forced to concede a vote in the medium term, especially if the SNP and Greens are returned to Holyrood with a combined majority in 2021, having stood on manifestos demanding a second referendum. In short, if Scotland wants to vote to leave the UK in order to petition for re-entry to the EU, that option is still open to it.
Both Gibraltar and Scotland demand respect. But their particular circumstances are clearly different.
1) We should respect the will of Gibraltarans to remain part of the Uk
2) But ignore the will of Scots to remain in the EU
Another referendum for Gibraltar
Options
1) In EU, Joint British & Spanish sovereignty, border remains as is. 2) No spanish sovereignty, WALLhard border with Spain. Navy blue Passports, guineas and groats.
Given we haven't a clue about the Irish border, the people of Gibraltar should be bracing themselves to be given to Spain to get a good Brexit deal for the rest of the UK. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Hysterical, much?
Santander, fishing and 17 million visitors say Spain will not want to play silly buggers.....
The only hysterical people are Leavers like Lord Howard who wish to send 16 Air Assault Brigade and our Trident subs to The Rock.
You're the one suggesting transfer of sovereignty.....
Which was something foretold by intelligent Remainers like William Hague and myself before the Brexit vote.
A little harsh on William Hague, I'd say....
We're both working class Yorkshiremen who've done good in life.
How is the son of a doctor, who went to a nice private school, working class? How is a member of Lancashire Cricket Club a Yorkshireman?
Clues today that Lord Howard was set up by Downing Street PR to ratchet up the warrior rhetoric. Planned, not a loose cannon, and presumably with the aim of boosting Mrs May's Falklands-style tough operator image with the more jingoistic press.
Comparisons with Galtieri are more apt than those with Thatcher, I would say.
Seems that way. Could be because war talk keeps the swivel-eyed, willy-waving hard Brexit boys away from second guessing the actual Brexit negotiations, which may end with a deal that is not to their liking.
Yes it's a tradeoff. On the one hand keeping them happy strengthens TM's hand to keep her side together and negotiate. On the other it annoys the Europeans and maybe strengthens their hardliners a bit?
1) We should respect the will of Gibraltarans to remain part of the Uk
2) But ignore the will of Scots to remain in the EU
Another referendum for Gibraltar
Options
1) In EU, Joint British & Spanish sovereignty, border remains as is. 2) No spanish sovereignty, WALLhard border with Spain. Navy blue Passports, guineas and groats.
Given we haven't a clue about the Irish border, the people of Gibraltar should be bracing themselves to be given to Spain to get a good Brexit deal for the rest of the UK. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
That's not right, we can impose a hard border out of spite.
Well quite. UK and Ire will work together to on what the Irish border looks like, we'll both co-operate to make life as easy as possible for our mutual interest which came from a British decision to leave the EU. The computer systems should be relatively simple to admin, with border stops by customs agents based on intelligence pretty much as happens now.
The key point being that the British will bend over backwards to help the ROI because it was a British decision to Leave the EU. Britain is under no obligation to behave the same way towards a Scotland that votes to leave the UK - that one will be an acrimonious divorce.
Of the British-Irish-EU I'm pretty confident it won't be the first two who worry too much about the NI border.....
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
Clues today that Lord Howard was set up by Downing Street PR to ratchet up the warrior rhetoric. Planned, not a loose cannon, and presumably with the aim of boosting Mrs May's Falklands-style tough operator image with the more jingoistic press.
Comparisons with Galtieri are more apt than those with Thatcher, I would say.
Seems that way. Could be because war talk keeps the swivel-eyed, willy-waving hard Brexit boys away from second guessing the actual Brexit negotiations, which may end with a deal that is not to their liking.
And oh how amusing it all was and what vituperative responses there were when anyone pre-vote pondered on the possible geopolitical instability that Brexit might bring.
Price worth paying, I suppose.
Edit: plus of course Lord Howard has passed the "The Day Today" test.
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
We were only an ally in the Spanish succession wars. In fact, we only joined in after five years.
I wonder what this week's Brexit fiasco will be? I'm expecting noises from France about moving the border checks back to the UK side of the tunnel.
That would be a fiasco? At the end of the day, does it matter if the border is here or there?
Haven't they been doing that virtual Hokey-Cokey for a couple of years, at fairly junior minster sabre-rattling level?
The French are a bit tied up with other matters at the moment, Brexit does seem a great opportunity for any EU nation to air an old grievance with us though so I'm sure it'll pop up once they've sorted their new leader.
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
We were only an ally in the Spanish succession wars. In fact, we only joined in after five years.
1) We should respect the will of Gibraltarans to remain part of the Uk
2) But ignore the will of Scots to remain in the EU
Another referendum for Gibraltar
Options
1) In EU, Joint British & Spanish sovereignty, border remains as is. 2) No spanish sovereignty, WALLhard border with Spain. Navy blue Passports, guineas and groats.
Given we haven't a clue about the Irish border, the people of Gibraltar should be bracing themselves to be given to Spain to get a good Brexit deal for the rest of the UK. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Hysterical, much?
Santander, fishing and 17 million visitors say Spain will not want to play silly buggers.....
The only hysterical people are Leavers like Lord Howard who wish to send 16 Air Assault Brigade and our Trident subs to The Rock.
You're the one suggesting transfer of sovereignty.....
Which was something foretold by intelligent Remainers like William Hague and myself before the Brexit vote.
A little harsh on William Hague, I'd say....
We're both working class Yorkshiremen who've done good in life.
How is the son of a doctor, who went to a nice private school, working class? How is a member of Lancashire Cricket Club a Yorkshireman?
I work, I have class. Ergo I'm working class.
I'm a member of Yorkshire too, I'm a member of Lancashire purely to take advantage of the exclusive sales window they offer to members for England matches at Old Trafford.
1) We should respect the will of Gibraltarans to remain part of the Uk
2) But ignore the will of Scots to remain in the EU
Another referendum for Gibraltar
Options
1) In EU, Joint British & Spanish sovereignty, border remains as is. 2) No spanish sovereignty, WALLhard border with Spain. Navy blue Passports, guineas and groats.
Given we haven't a clue about the Irish border, the people of Gibraltar should be bracing themselves to be given to Spain to get a good Brexit deal for the rest of the UK. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
That's not right, we can impose a hard border out of spite.
Well quite. UK and Ire will work together to on what the Irish border looks like, we'll both co-operate to make life as easy as possible for our mutual interest which came from a British decision to leave the EU. The computer systems should be relatively simple to admin, with border stops by customs agents based on intelligence pretty much as happens now.
The key point being that the British will bend over backwards to help the ROI because it was a British decision to Leave the EU. Britain is under no obligation to behave the same way towards a Scotland that votes to leave the UK - that one will be an acrimonious divorce.
Of the British-Irish-EU I'm pretty confident it won't be the first two who worry too much about the NI border.....
Very true.
Ironically, and to bring two conversations together, the border between Spain and Gibraltar is a pretty good proxy for what we'll see between Carlisle and Gretna, if Scotland want to leave the UK without reference to their share of the UK debt.
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
That might explain why we didn't sign a Treaty with the Ukrainians, but merely a worthless memorandum.
"Just a memo dear chap, I'm sure you understand..."
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
You are allowed to be aggressive in a war. There probably isn't a single border in Europe which isn't one way or another the result of some past aggression.
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
We were only an ally in the Spanish succession wars. In fact, we only joined in after five years.
But we were nevertheless a participant.
Yep, but I don't think you can view it as a war of aggression. The primary interest was the balance of power on the continent.
1) We should respect the will of Gibraltarans to remain part of the Uk
2) But ignore the will of Scots to remain in the EU
Another referendum for Gibraltar
Options
1) In EU, Joint British & Spanish sovereignty, border remains as is. 2) No spanish sovereignty, WALLhard border with Spain. Navy blue Passports, guineas and groats.
Given we haven't a clue about the Irish border, the people of Gibraltar should be bracing themselves to be given to Spain to get a good Brexit deal for the rest of the UK. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Hysterical, much?
Santander, fishing and 17 million visitors say Spain will not want to play silly buggers.....
The only hysterical people are Leavers like Lord Howard who wish to send 16 Air Assault Brigade and our Trident subs to The Rock.
You're the one suggesting transfer of sovereignty.....
Which was something foretold by intelligent Remainers like William Hague and myself before the Brexit vote.
A little harsh on William Hague, I'd say....
We're both working class Yorkshiremen who've done good in life.
How is the son of a doctor, who went to a nice private school, working class? How is a member of Lancashire Cricket Club a Yorkshireman?
I work, I have class. Ergo I'm working class.
I'm a member of Yorkshire too, I'm a member of Lancashire purely to take advantage of the exclusive sales window they offer to members for England matches at Old Trafford.
1) We should respect the will of Gibraltarans to remain part of the Uk
2) But ignore the will of Scots to remain in the EU
Another referendum for Gibraltar
Options
1) In EU, Joint British & Spanish sovereignty, border remains as is. 2) No spanish sovereignty, WALLhard border with Spain. Navy blue Passports, guineas and groats.
Given we haven't a clue about the Irish border, the people of Gibraltar should be bracing themselves to be given to Spain to get a good Brexit deal for the rest of the UK. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Hysterical, much?
Santander, fishing and 17 million visitors say Spain will not want to play silly buggers.....
The only hysterical people are Leavers like Lord Howard who wish to send 16 Air Assault Brigade and our Trident subs to The Rock.
You're the one suggesting transfer of sovereignty.....
Which was something foretold by intelligent Remainers like William Hague and myself before the Brexit vote.
A little harsh on William Hague, I'd say....
We're both working class Yorkshiremen who've done good in life.
How is the son of a doctor, who went to a nice private school, working class? How is a member of Lancashire Cricket Club a Yorkshireman?
Melenchon is worth keeping onside at 48/50 btw, he has been rising and could benefit if Hamon drops further.
Macron +++ Melenchon + Le Pen - Fillon ---
Is my assessment of the situation.
Melenchon is potentially a threat to Macron. It seems plausible that, so far, the absence of a challenger from the left with any prospects has prompted some on the left to declare for Macron in the first round on a pragmatic basis, to ensure that there is at least one non-right wing candidate in the second round.
That means though that there is some potential for things to unwind for Macron if a challenger from the left does emerge. It's quite plausible now to see Melenchon's surge continuing as people give up on Hamon. So support on the left consolidates around Melenchon, so that Hamon declines into single figures allowing Melenchon to consistently poll in the high teens. At that point, there is the prospect of Melenchon adding a couple of % more from Macron to get him into the bottom 20s, at Macron's expense. At that point we have effectively a three way contest for who is to join Le Pen in the second round - Macron, Fillon or Melenchon.
Meanwhile the Russian poll is bunkum and could quite easily help Macron by identifying Fillon as the Kremlin's candidate.
That is a very plausible scenario. The higher Melenchon rises in the polls, the more likely others will switch to him, because up until now, a lot will have seen a vote for Melenchon as a wasted vote.
And given that Melenchon's surge came on the back of the last tv debate and we are on the eve of another tv debate, Melenchon is certainly one to keep very much onside. If he can go level with or even overtake Fillon in just one (non Russian) poll, then the resultant media publicity will see his odds crash.
The poll putting Melenchon on 19.5% might be an outlier but it's certainly an amber warning light. My guess is that it is an outlier, simply because there's no obvious reason why his rating should jump five points right now. The trend upwards off the back of the debate: yes. A sudden surge? No.
However, he's now a serious runner and the 40/1 widely available (never mind the 80/1 with sportingbet quoted on oddschecker), is good value. i still don't like the 7/2 for Le Pen but for the first time you can see a realistic route for her opening up to the Elysee. I'd make her more like 8/1.
The value bet is I think 66/1 to see Le Pen v Melenchon in the final two.
Ladbrokes think so, they are offering it at only 12/1.
The trouble with this is you can go online and see dozens of examples every week of youths kicking the shit out of people. Black, White, Asian, it is unfortunately hugely common and very rarely involves anything to do with asylum or race. The police regularly release videos on Facebook asking for help identifying suspects. I really don't see how this one should be treated any differently because the suspects were a different colour or nationality to the victim. There is a place for crimes to be defined as 'hate crimes', particularly involving incitement, but once it gets to the point where someone is actually assaulting someone then they should be prosecuted and punished equally whether the victim is the ethnic background or not.
Clues today that Lord Howard was set up by Downing Street PR to ratchet up the warrior rhetoric. Planned, not a loose cannon, and presumably with the aim of boosting Mrs May's Falklands-style tough operator image with the more jingoistic press.
Comparisons with Galtieri are more apt than those with Thatcher, I would say.
Seems that way. Could be because war talk keeps the swivel-eyed, willy-waving hard Brexit boys away from second guessing the actual Brexit negotiations, which may end with a deal that is not to their liking.
And oh how amusing it all was and what vituperative responses there were when anyone pre-vote pondered on the possible geopolitical instability that Brexit might bring.
Price worth paying, I suppose.
Edit: plus of course Lord Howard has passed the "The Day Today" test.
Spain periodically engages in sabre-rattling about Gibraltar.
The SNP's core mission is to agitate for a separation of Scotland from the UK.
The Leave vote has given both a reason to do what they'd do anyway, and the available evidence suggests nothing will come of either, as always.
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
Much of the borders of Europe are the products of past acts of aggression, many of which were committed much more recently than the early 18th century, of course. You could have a lot of very interesting arguments about which borders should be moved to where, and which groups of people ought to be sent back "where they came from" if you're going to open that particular can of worms.
The Gibraltarians virtually all want to remain under British sovereignty, and any Spaniards who may have been dispossessed when Britain won control of Gibraltar have been dead for hundreds of years. It makes about as much sense for Spain to keep demanding the return of Gibraltar as it would for us to ask the French to give back Normandy.
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
Spain might be seen as the product of past aggression, seeing as most of it used to belong to the moors...
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
Spain itself is the product of past Christian aggression against the Moorish Iberian peninsular. Gibraltar belonged to the Moors for 750 years. It belonged to Spain for 250 years. Maybe we should give it back to the Arabs.
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
Spain might be seen as the product of past aggression, seeing as most of it used to belong to the moors...
The trouble with this is you can go online and see dozens of examples every week of youths kicking the shit out of people. Black, White, Asian, it is unfortunately hugely common and very rarely involves anything to do with asylum or race. The police regularly release videos on Facebook asking for help identifying suspects. I really don't see how this one should be treated any differently because the suspects were a different colour or nationality to the victim. There is a place for crimes to be defined as 'hate crimes', particularly involving incitement, but once it gets to the point where someone is actually assaulting someone then they should be prosecuted and punished equally whether the victim is the ethnic background or not.
Personally I don't think the race of either attackers or victims makes any difference to the magnitude of a crime. I think most people probably agree.
The trouble with this is you can go online and see dozens of examples every week of youths kicking the shit out of people. Black, White, Asian, it is unfortunately hugely common and very rarely involves anything to do with asylum or race. The police regularly release videos on Facebook asking for help identifying suspects. I really don't see how this one should be treated any differently because the suspects were a different colour or nationality to the victim. There is a place for crimes to be defined as 'hate crimes', particularly involving incitement, but once it gets to the point where someone is actually assaulting someone then they should be prosecuted and punished equally whether the victim is the ethnic background or not.
Personally I don't think the race of either attackers or victims makes any difference to the magnitude of a crime. I think most people probably agree.
Yep sorry this wasn't directed specifically at you and more at the general tone that is being set of it being a 'race hate crime'.
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
Much of the borders of Europe are the products of past acts of aggression, many of which were committed much more recently than the early 18th century, of course. You could have a lot of very interesting arguments about which borders should be moved to where, and which groups of people ought to be sent back "where they came from" if you're going to open that particular can of worms.
The Gibraltarians virtually all want to remain under British sovereignty, and any Spaniards who may have been dispossessed when Britain won control of Gibraltar have been dead for hundreds of years. It makes about as much sense for Spain to keep demanding the return of Gibraltar as it would for us to ask the French to give back Normandy.
I really agree with all of that. It raises the interesting question as to when does it cease to be reasonable to seek to reverse earlier acts of aggression. Had Nazi Germany been able to hang on to the territories conquered in mid- 1942, would we now - 75 years later - have to accept that such lands belonged to Germany? Would it still be reasonable for a group of other countries to come together to launch an attack on Germany to recover the lost territory by force?
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
Spain itself is the product of past Christian aggression against the Moorish Iberian peninsular. Gibraltar belonged to the Moors for 750 years. It belonged to Spain for 250 years. Maybe we should give it back to the Arabs.
The trouble with this is you can go online and see dozens of examples every week of youths kicking the shit out of people. Black, White, Asian, it is unfortunately hugely common and very rarely involves anything to do with asylum or race. The police regularly release videos on Facebook asking for help identifying suspects. I really don't see how this one should be treated any differently because the suspects were a different colour or nationality to the victim. There is a place for crimes to be defined as 'hate crimes', particularly involving incitement, but once it gets to the point where someone is actually assaulting someone then they should be prosecuted and punished equally whether the victim is the ethnic background or not.
Very true. How do we know that, as a hypothetical example, the victim of assault didn't steal someone's mobile phone from a bar and get chased out by the locals?
Racial 'angles' to certain crimes are becoming a problem, funnily enough since the police started thinking they were aggravating factors.
The crimes themselves haven't changed, but the discussion and reporting of them is what's changed - and not for the better.
1) We should respect the will of Gibraltarans to remain part of the Uk
2) But ignore the will of Scots to remain in the EU
Another referendum for Gibraltar
Options
1) In EU, Joint British & Spanish sovereignty, border remains as is. 2) No spanish sovereignty, WALLhard border with Spain. Navy blue Passports, guineas and groats.
Given we haven't a clue about the Irish border, the people of Gibraltar should be bracing themselves to be given to Spain to get a good Brexit deal for the rest of the UK. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Hysterical, much?
Santander, fishing and 17 million visitors say Spain will not want to play silly buggers.....
In much the same way as the EU are now beating a path to our door to finalise a free trade deal, I assume.
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
Spain might be seen as the product of past aggression, seeing as most of it used to belong to the moors...
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
Much of the borders of Europe are the products of past acts of aggression, many of which were committed much more recently than the early 18th century, of course. You could have a lot of very interesting arguments about which borders should be moved to where, and which groups of people ought to be sent back "where they came from" if you're going to open that particular can of worms.
The Gibraltarians virtually all want to remain under British sovereignty, and any Spaniards who may have been dispossessed when Britain won control of Gibraltar have been dead for hundreds of years. It makes about as much sense for Spain to keep demanding the return of Gibraltar as it would for us to ask the French to give back Normandy.
I really agree with all of that. It raises the interesting question as to when does it cease to be reasonable to seek to reverse earlier acts of aggression. Had Nazi Germany been able to hang on to the territories conquered in mid- 1942, would we now - 75 years later - have to accept that such lands belonged to Germany? Would it still be reasonable for a group of other countries to come together to launch an attack on Germany to recover the lost territory by force?
Well, that has happened.
Strictly speaking, Russia should have handed over Kalingrad (which was Konigsberg) either back to the Germans, or made it part of modern Poland, post WWII.
Instead they've occupied it as a Russian enclave for 72 years.
Real politik governs. Principles are fine until they encounter too strong or determined an enemy.
The Gibraltarians virtually all want to remain under British sovereignty, and any Spaniards who may have been dispossessed when Britain won control of Gibraltar have been dead for hundreds of years. It makes about as much sense for Spain to keep demanding the return of Gibraltar as it would for us to ask the French to give back Normandy.
Territorial integrity is a strange thing, though.
You might feel differently if, say, the War of the Spanish Succession had gone the other way and the Kingdom of Sicily had consequently been occupying the Isle of Portland for the past 300 years.
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
Much of the borders of Europe are the products of past acts of aggression, many of which were committed much more recently than the early 18th century, of course. You could have a lot of very interesting arguments about which borders should be moved to where, and which groups of people ought to be sent back "where they came from" if you're going to open that particular can of worms.
The Gibraltarians virtually all want to remain under British sovereignty, and any Spaniards who may have been dispossessed when Britain won control of Gibraltar have been dead for hundreds of years. It makes about as much sense for Spain to keep demanding the return of Gibraltar as it would for us to ask the French to give back Normandy.
I really agree with all of that. It raises the interesting question as to when does it cease to be reasonable to seek to reverse earlier acts of aggression. Had Nazi Germany been able to hang on to the territories conquered in mid- 1942, would we now - 75 years later - have to accept that such lands belonged to Germany? Would it still be reasonable for a group of other countries to come together to launch an attack on Germany to recover the lost territory by force?
Clues today that Lord Howard was set up by Downing Street PR to ratchet up the warrior rhetoric. Planned, not a loose cannon, and presumably with the aim of boosting Mrs May's Falklands-style tough operator image with the more jingoistic press.
Comparisons with Galtieri are more apt than those with Thatcher, I would say.
Seems that way. Could be because war talk keeps the swivel-eyed, willy-waving hard Brexit boys away from second guessing the actual Brexit negotiations, which may end with a deal that is not to their liking.
And oh how amusing it all was and what vituperative responses there were when anyone pre-vote pondered on the possible geopolitical instability that Brexit might bring.
Price worth paying, I suppose.
Edit: plus of course Lord Howard has passed the "The Day Today" test.
Spain periodically engages in sabre-rattling about Gibraltar.
The SNP's core mission is to agitate for a separation of Scotland from the UK.
The Leave vote has given both a reason to do what they'd do anyway, and the available evidence suggests nothing will come of either, as always.
Yes good point. A wild tiger's main mission is to try to escape from its enclosure. Leaving the gates open would give it a reason to do what it'd do anyway.
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
Firstly let's hope all this about Gibraltar settles down and is storm in tea cup territory. But what's your point that it's maybe British "aggression" albeit dating back 300 years".
And?
Ceuta and Mellila - Spanish (well one Portuguese actually that since became Spanish but - hey ho) Aggression since the 1490's? Should the Spanish hand them over to Morocco over the (doubtless) wishes of their inhabitants?
Catalonia/Basque country - been allowed a legal independence vote lately?
Olivenza - pinched from the Portuguese after Napoleon's time - still under Spanish rule.
We could go on around Europe for old acts of "aggression":-
Sudtirol - ethnically Austrian Italian since 1918
Alsace - only became French because Louis XiV invaded
Cyprus - had been Turkish for centuries till we landed it in about 1878 as a result of various diplomatic goings on.
There are Danes still the "wrong" side of the German border because of Prussian "aggression" in 1866
The trouble with this is you can go online and see dozens of examples every week of youths kicking the shit out of people. Black, White, Asian, it is unfortunately hugely common and very rarely involves anything to do with asylum or race. The police regularly release videos on Facebook asking for help identifying suspects. I really don't see how this one should be treated any differently because the suspects were a different colour or nationality to the victim. There is a place for crimes to be defined as 'hate crimes', particularly involving incitement, but once it gets to the point where someone is actually assaulting someone then they should be prosecuted and punished equally whether the victim is the ethnic background or not.
Generally speaking, groups of youths in town/city centres are best avoided on Friday and Saturday nights.
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
Spain might be seen as the product of past aggression, seeing as most of it used to belong to the moors...
Who themselves conquered it.
Somewhere there is the ghost of a Neanderthal sitting in a cave thinking... oh bollocks.
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
Much of the borders of Europe are the products of past acts of aggression, many of which were committed much more recently than the early 18th century, of course. You could have a lot of very interesting arguments about which borders should be moved to where, and which groups of people ought to be sent back "where they came from" if you're going to open that particular can of worms.
The Gibraltarians virtually all want to remain under British sovereignty, and any Spaniards who may have been dispossessed when Britain won control of Gibraltar have been dead for hundreds of years. It makes about as much sense for Spain to keep demanding the return of Gibraltar as it would for us to ask the French to give back Normandy.
Yes it really does make you wonder in such a context why people make such a fuss about Israel and its various border claims.
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
Firstly let's hope all this about Gibraltar settles down and is storm in tea cup territory. But what's your point that it's maybe British "aggression" albeit dating back 300 years".
And?
Ceuta and Mellila - Spanish (well one Portuguese actually that since became Spanish but - hey ho) Aggression since the 1490's? Should the Spanish hand them over to Morocco over the (doubtless) wishes of their inhabitants?
Catalonia/Basque country - been allowed a legal independence vote lately?
Olivenza - pinched from the Portuguese after Napoleon's time - still under Spanish rule.
We could go on around Europe for old acts of "aggression":-
Sudtirol - ethnically Austrian Italian since 1918
Alsace - only became French because Louis XiV invaded
Cyprus - had been Turkish for centuries till we landed it in about 1878 as a result of various diplomatic going on.
There are Danes still the "wrong" side of the German border because of Prussian "aggression" in 1866
And so on.
Why are we seemingly seen as so uniquely bad?
I am not wishing to suggest that we are 'uniquely bad' - but neither are we 'whiter than white' and have probably been as bad as many others.
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
Spain might be seen as the product of past aggression, seeing as most of it used to belong to the moors...
Who themselves conquered it.
The most homogenous, unified, oldest country and people on earth are the Japanese/Japan by some distance I think.
The Gibraltarians virtually all want to remain under British sovereignty, and any Spaniards who may have been dispossessed when Britain won control of Gibraltar have been dead for hundreds of years. It makes about as much sense for Spain to keep demanding the return of Gibraltar as it would for us to ask the French to give back Normandy.
Territorial integrity is a strange thing, though.
You might feel differently if, say, the War of the Spanish Succession had gone the other way and the Kingdom of Sicily had consequently been occupying the Isle of Portland for the past 300 years.
Possibly so, but the equivalent of Ceuta and Melilla now (and couple of other little twiddly bits on/off the N African coast) would be the UK not having Portland, but occupying Calais and Cherbourg and still moaning to the Kingdom of Sicily about Portland and the runway they'd built on Chesil Beach.
Re Gibraltar - does Spain care about their tourist industry?
The £ to € rate will do more to harm that than Gib handbags.
It depends on whether the UK seeks to extend whatever border controls Spain seeks to impose on one part of UK territory to apply to crossings between Spain and the UK generally.
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
Much of the borders of Europe are the products of past acts of aggression, many of which were committed much more recently than the early 18th century, of course. You could have a lot of very interesting arguments about which borders should be moved to where, and which groups of people ought to be sent back "where they came from" if you're going to open that particular can of worms.
The Gibraltarians virtually all want to remain under British sovereignty, and any Spaniards who may have been dispossessed when Britain won control of Gibraltar have been dead for hundreds of years. It makes about as much sense for Spain to keep demanding the return of Gibraltar as it would for us to ask the French to give back Normandy.
I really agree with all of that. It raises the interesting question as to when does it cease to be reasonable to seek to reverse earlier acts of aggression. Had Nazi Germany been able to hang on to the territories conquered in mid- 1942, would we now - 75 years later - have to accept that such lands belonged to Germany? Would it still be reasonable for a group of other countries to come together to launch an attack on Germany to recover the lost territory by force?
Crimea offers a more pertinent example.
Except that the Crimea was handed over voluntarily by Krushchev in the 1950s - effectively a transfer from one USSR republic to another.
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
Spain might be seen as the product of past aggression, seeing as most of it used to belong to the moors...
Who themselves conquered it.
The most homogenous, unified, oldest country and people on earth are the Japanese/Japan by some distance I think.
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
Spain might be seen as the product of past aggression, seeing as most of it used to belong to the moors...
Who themselves conquered it.
The most homogenous, unified, oldest country and people on earth are the Japanese/Japan by some distance I think.
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
Firstly let's hope all this about Gibraltar settles down and is storm in tea cup territory. But what's your point that it's maybe British "aggression" albeit dating back 300 years".
And?
Ceuta and Mellila - Spanish (well one Portuguese actually that since became Spanish but - hey ho) Aggression since the 1490's? Should the Spanish hand them over to Morocco over the (doubtless) wishes of their inhabitants?
Catalonia/Basque country - been allowed a legal independence vote lately?
Olivenza - pinched from the Portuguese after Napoleon's time - still under Spanish rule.
We could go on around Europe for old acts of "aggression":-
Sudtirol - ethnically Austrian Italian since 1918
Alsace - only became French because Louis XiV invaded
Cyprus - had been Turkish for centuries till we landed it in about 1878 as a result of various diplomatic going on.
There are Danes still the "wrong" side of the German border because of Prussian "aggression" in 1866
And so on.
Why are we seemingly seen as so uniquely bad?
I am not wishing to suggest that we are 'uniquely bad' - but neither are we 'whiter than white' and have probably been as bad as many others.
Quite so.
I'd have hoped in the 21st Century in a "democratic Europe" that the settled wish of a long established territory's citizens (and 99% and 300 years counts as both!) would prevail over geographical tidiness.
Otherwise we may as well pull whatever tripwire forces we have out of Estonia, for example, declare it not worth the hassle because there's "only" 1.6M of them, they've not been independent very long, and they're rather untidy geographically blocking the view from St Petersburg as they annoyingly do, and just invite that nice Mr Putin to roll his tanks in one night.
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
Much of the borders of Europe are the products of past acts of aggression, many of which were committed much more recently than the early 18th century, of course. You could have a lot of very interesting arguments about which borders should be moved to where, and which groups of people ought to be sent back "where they came from" if you're going to open that particular can of worms.
The Gibraltarians virtually all want to remain under British sovereignty, and any Spaniards who may have been dispossessed when Britain won control of Gibraltar have been dead for hundreds of years. It makes about as much sense for Spain to keep demanding the return of Gibraltar as it would for us to ask the French to give back Normandy.
Yes it really does make you wonder in such a context why people make such a fuss about Israel and its various border claims.
Perhaps the 5 million Palestinian refugees (UN figure) have something to do with it.
And the Zionist regime doesn't really make "border claims". It just moves in and occasionally does deals to withdraw. It has no official policy on "we claim this territory and no more".
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
Spain might be seen as the product of past aggression, seeing as most of it used to belong to the moors...
Who themselves conquered it.
The most homogenous, unified, oldest country and people on earth are the Japanese/Japan by some distance I think.
What about Iceland?
It has barely been a sovereign nation for a hundred years Probably beats Japan on the homogeneity of the population now though.
Yes it really does make you wonder in such a context why people make such a fuss about Israel and its various border claims.
The point of making a thus about that sort of thing is to try and dissuade other countries from following suit. From some accounts this has been the spine running through European history since the concept of the "balance of power" was first articulated three centuries ago, and possibly before, arguably culminating in the EU, where old borders would cease to matter so much.
When you draw borders people will argue about where they are drawn, so trying to reduce the importance of borders is a way of reducing arguments about their location.
Re Gibraltar - does Spain care about their tourist industry?
The £ to € rate will do more to harm that than Gib handbags.
It depends on whether the UK seeks to extend whatever border controls Spain seeks to impose on one part of UK territory to apply to crossings between Spain and the UK generally.
If Spain goes very hard, then flights to/from Gibraltar will have to avoid Spanish air space, goods will need to be shipped to/from the UK, or via non-Spanish ports, and the flow of people between Spain and Gibraltar will need to go via a neutral port in Morocco, probably Tangier > Algeciras, which will extend a journey of about 15-20 minutes to about 8-10 hours.
A huge inconvenience but it won't cripple Gibraltar.
Labour will lose 125 seats in this May's local elections, Lord Hayward predicts. LibDems to gain c100, Tories 100+ (taking seats off Ukip)
Ukip to lose c100 seats in the locals, Lord Robert Hayward adds
Sounds a lot more believable than yesterday's figures. If Labour keep losses to 50 in England and Wales that would be spectacular and indicate that there is something seriously adrift with current polling.
Re Gibraltar - does Spain care about their tourist industry?
The £ to € rate will do more to harm that than Gib handbags.
It depends on whether the UK seeks to extend whatever border controls Spain seeks to impose on one part of UK territory to apply to crossings between Spain and the UK generally.
Or we could be cheeky and say EU citizens already here get full rights grandfathered in, no problem, all fine and dandy in full agreement with you Mr Tusk - except anyone who's Spanish.
I really agree with all of that. It raises the interesting question as to when does it cease to be reasonable to seek to reverse earlier acts of aggression. Had Nazi Germany been able to hang on to the territories conquered in mid- 1942, would we now - 75 years later - have to accept that such lands belonged to Germany? Would it still be reasonable for a group of other countries to come together to launch an attack on Germany to recover the lost territory by force?
There is a live example from that time period. Russia's claim to the Kaliningrad oblast is based pretty much exclusively on possession. It was previously East Prussia and as such part of Germany. Germany has renounced its claim to East Prussia but, interestingly, Russia has no real positive claim.
But the answer to your final question is unequivocally no. The Helsinki Final Act of 1975 prohibits the use of military force by any state in Europe against any other.
"Article III: Inviolability of Frontiers
The participating states regard as inviolable all one another's frontiers as well as the frontiers of all states in Europe and therefore they will refrain now and in the future from assaulting these frontiers.
Accordingly, they will also refrain from any demand for, or act of, seizure and usurpation of part or all of the territory of any participating State.
Article IV: Territorial Integrity of States
The participating states will respect the territorial integrity of each of the participating states. Accordingly, they will refrain from any action inconsistent with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations against the territorial integrity, political independence or the unity of any participating state, and in particular from any such action constituting a threat or use of force.
The participating states will likewise refrain from making each other's territory the object of military occupation or other direct or indirect measures of force in contravention of international law, or the object of acquisition by means of such measures or the threat of them. No such occupation or acquisition will be recognized as legal."
Re Gibraltar - does Spain care about their tourist industry?
The £ to € rate will do more to harm that than Gib handbags.
It depends on whether the UK seeks to extend whatever border controls Spain seeks to impose on one part of UK territory to apply to crossings between Spain and the UK generally.
If Spain goes very hard, then flights to/from Gibraltar will have to avoid Spanish air space, goods will need to be shipped to/from the UK, or via non-Spanish ports, and the flow of people between Spain and Gibraltar will need to go via a neutral port in Morocco, probably Tangier > Algeciras, which will extend a journey of about 15-20 minutes to about 8-10 hours.
A huge inconvenience but it won't cripple Gibraltar.
Oh those Russians. Instead of waging war on Spain we should wage war on Russia.
Let's practice war on Spain first before taking on Russia.
We could call on our Portugese allies, with whom we have never been at war.
I think technically the Spanish are in breach of the peace treaty signed at the end of the Peninsular War (they haven't returned some towns to Portugal). Britain has a reputation for upholding Treaties...
But Gibraltar might still be seen as the product of past British aggression - albeit dating back 300 years.
Much of the borders of Europe are the products of past acts of aggression, many of which were committed much more recently than the early 18th century, of course. You could have a lot of very interesting arguments about which borders should be moved to where, and which groups of people ought to be sent back "where they came from" if you're going to open that particular can of worms.
The Gibraltarians virtually all want to remain under British sovereignty, and any Spaniards who may have been dispossessed when Britain won control of Gibraltar have been dead for hundreds of years. It makes about as much sense for Spain to keep demanding the return of Gibraltar as it would for us to ask the French to give back Normandy.
Yes it really does make you wonder in such a context why people make such a fuss about Israel and its various border claims.
Perhaps the 5 million Palestinian refugees (UN figure) have something to do with it.
And the Zionist regime doesn't really make "border claims". It just moves in and occasionally does deals to withdraw. It has no official policy on "we claim this territory and no more".
All territorial shifts, through war, treaty, or other means, are messy. Get over it. This one is just in relatively recent memory. I read a good review of a book about the North America settlements yesterday.
Don't know why you're losing your cool about them all.
Comments
Howard's rhetoric was overdone and an escalation, but this pretence it came out of nowhere when we've seen with our own eyes people suggesting the place would get transferred because the EU has us over a barrel (itself a ridiculously overdone and escalating comment from what the EU, and Spain for that matter, said), is just plain false.
The key point being that the British will bend over backwards to help the ROI because it was a British decision to Leave the EU. Britain is under no obligation to behave the same way towards a Scotland that votes to leave the UK - that one will be an acrimonious divorce.
Gibraltar accuses EU of behaving like a 'cuckolded husband who is taking it out on the children'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/03/eu-will-not-give-way-gibraltar-diplomats-say-talk-war-dismissed/
Not that there's any suggestion at this point that that's even a possibility.
Defending Gibraltar isn't going to need Operation Black Buck, after all.
Got it
Ladbrokes think so, they are offering it at only 12/1.
2. The UK as a whole voted to leave the EU, and every vote was equal. Moreover, we do not have a federal constitution which stipulates that any of the constituent parts of the UK can veto such a decision: you might think that we should have such a thing, but you could just as easily argue that England and Wales should've been entitled to hold immediate independence referendums of their own if Scotland and Northern Ireland had had power of veto to begin with. I'm not sure that talking about alternative constitutions in alternative universes gets us very far. Bottom line is, Scotland can't stay in the EU whilst England and Wales leave it, given that it is part of the UK - this is impossible.
3. If the people of Scotland viewed remaining in the EU as more important than remaining in the UK, then they could demand independence and apply to go back into the EU, and indeed the pro-secession majority in the Scottish Parliament has voted for this. The UK Government is stonewalling on the entirely understandable grounds that (a) it's only two-and-a-half years since the last independence referendum, (b) it has its hands completely full dealing with the vote to leave the EU first, and (c) it believes that most of the available evidence suggests that the majority of Scottish public opinion is against a referendum at this time. However, if Scottish public opinion changes then the UK Government will be forced to concede a vote in the medium term, especially if the SNP and Greens are returned to Holyrood with a combined majority in 2021, having stood on manifestos demanding a second referendum. In short, if Scotland wants to vote to leave the UK in order to petition for re-entry to the EU, that option is still open to it.
Both Gibraltar and Scotland demand respect. But their particular circumstances are clearly different.
How is a member of Lancashire Cricket Club a Yorkshireman?
Price worth paying, I suppose.
Edit: plus of course Lord Howard has passed the "The Day Today" test.
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/848808202531725312
I'm a member of Yorkshire too, I'm a member of Lancashire purely to take advantage of the exclusive sales window they offer to members for England matches at Old Trafford.
Ironically, and to bring two conversations together, the border between Spain and Gibraltar is a pretty good proxy for what we'll see between Carlisle and Gretna, if Scotland want to leave the UK without reference to their share of the UK debt.
"Just a memo dear chap, I'm sure you understand..."
https://youtube.com/watch?v=4VxkltwS9g0
One day I'll tap you up for a spare Old Trafford Ashes ticket!
On that basis, so is the Queen.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/03/saintpetersburg-bombing-casualties-explosion-metro-train/
Such is cynicism about Vlad and his band of thugs my first reaction is to be very open-minded about who might have done it, and why.
The SNP's core mission is to agitate for a separation of Scotland from the UK.
The Leave vote has given both a reason to do what they'd do anyway, and the available evidence suggests nothing will come of either, as always.
The Gibraltarians virtually all want to remain under British sovereignty, and any Spaniards who may have been dispossessed when Britain won control of Gibraltar have been dead for hundreds of years. It makes about as much sense for Spain to keep demanding the return of Gibraltar as it would for us to ask the French to give back Normandy.
"Two explosions"
Doesn't look good.
Racial 'angles' to certain crimes are becoming a problem, funnily enough since the police started thinking they were aggravating factors.
The crimes themselves haven't changed, but the discussion and reporting of them is what's changed - and not for the better.
Labour will lose 125 seats in this May's local elections, Lord Hayward predicts.
LibDems to gain c100, Tories 100+ (taking seats off Ukip)
Ukip to lose c100 seats in the locals, Lord Robert Hayward adds
Strictly speaking, Russia should have handed over Kalingrad (which was Konigsberg) either back to the Germans, or made it part of modern Poland, post WWII.
Instead they've occupied it as a Russian enclave for 72 years.
Real politik governs. Principles are fine until they encounter too strong or determined an enemy.
You might feel differently if, say, the War of the Spanish Succession had gone the other way and the Kingdom of Sicily had consequently been occupying the Isle of Portland for the past 300 years.
(note: @kle4?)
And?
Ceuta and Mellila - Spanish (well one Portuguese actually that since became Spanish but - hey ho) Aggression since the 1490's? Should the Spanish hand them over to Morocco over the (doubtless) wishes of their inhabitants?
Catalonia/Basque country - been allowed a legal independence vote lately?
Olivenza - pinched from the Portuguese after Napoleon's time - still under Spanish rule.
We could go on around Europe for old acts of "aggression":-
Sudtirol - ethnically Austrian Italian since 1918
Alsace - only became French because Louis XiV invaded
Cyprus - had been Turkish for centuries till we landed it in about 1878 as a result of various diplomatic goings on.
There are Danes still the "wrong" side of the German border because of Prussian "aggression" in 1866
And so on.
Why are we seemingly seen as so uniquely bad?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_local_elections,_2013
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_local_elections,_2013#Results
The full figures were:
Con 1,116
Lab 538
LD 352
UKIP 147
Green 22
"I am the Corbyn Candidate" and the official Lab candidate is hand picked by Vaz, Watson and the plotters against the One True Leader Jeremy.
https://order-order.com/2017/04/03/galloway-corbyn-candidate-manchester-gorton/
Georgeous is still around at 20/1 with Lab 1/5, could there be a huge upset here?
https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/manchester-gorton-by-election/winning-party
I'd have hoped in the 21st Century in a "democratic Europe" that the settled wish of a long established territory's citizens (and 99% and 300 years counts as both!) would prevail over geographical tidiness.
Otherwise we may as well pull whatever tripwire forces we have out of Estonia, for example, declare it not worth the hassle because there's "only" 1.6M of them, they've not been independent very long, and they're rather untidy geographically blocking the view from St Petersburg as they annoyingly do, and just invite that nice Mr Putin to roll his tanks in one night.
And the Zionist regime doesn't really make "border claims". It just moves in and occasionally does deals to withdraw. It has no official policy on "we claim this territory and no more".
Probably beats Japan on the homogeneity of the population now though.
When you draw borders people will argue about where they are drawn, so trying to reduce the importance of borders is a way of reducing arguments about their location.
A huge inconvenience but it won't cripple Gibraltar.
But the answer to your final question is unequivocally no. The Helsinki Final Act of 1975 prohibits the use of military force by any state in Europe against any other.
"Article III: Inviolability of Frontiers
The participating states regard as inviolable all one another's frontiers as well as the frontiers of all states in Europe and therefore they will refrain now and in the future from assaulting these frontiers.
Accordingly, they will also refrain from any demand for, or act of, seizure and usurpation of part or all of the territory of any participating State.
Article IV: Territorial Integrity of States
The participating states will respect the territorial integrity of each of the participating states. Accordingly, they will refrain from any action inconsistent with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations against the territorial integrity, political independence or the unity of any participating state, and in particular from any such action constituting a threat or use of force.
The participating states will likewise refrain from making each other's territory the object of military occupation or other direct or indirect measures of force in contravention of international law, or the object of acquisition by means of such measures or the threat of them. No such occupation or acquisition will be recognized as legal."
Spain is not going to invade Gibraltar.
Don't know why you're losing your cool about them all.