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System Posts: 12,578
edited March 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Welcome to Article 50 day as the UK steps into the unknown

She must be confident this image will date well. pic.twitter.com/gnKuIcoHjO

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  • IanB2
    IanB2 Posts: 52,310
    edited March 2017
    First like Farron
  • JosiasJessop
    JosiasJessop Posts: 46,250
    Second like remain.
  • Charles
    Charles Posts: 35,758
    IanB2 said:

    First like Farron

    Over the parapet?
    Against the wall?
    Into the footnotes of history?
  • williamglenn
    williamglenn Posts: 56,289
    Will the last nation to leave the UK please turn out the lights.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806
    Today is like if after the Battle of Zama The Romans decided to salt their own lands.
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZ3Ibp9LQPM
  • JosiasJessop
    JosiasJessop Posts: 46,250
    Well, we have 730 days to sort out the mess that the vote has left us. And it is not, as some claim, just up to leavers; it is up to all of us, whether we voted leave, remain, or just stayed at home.

    Remainers throwing their/our toys out of the pram will not help the UK succeed; likewise leavers sitting back and slapping themselves on the back. Our country has chosen a slightly harder course, and one where the rewards and hazards are greater. We all need to make it work.

    And congratulations to all the hardcore leavers; I hope the saner amongst you get what you want.
  • Morris_Dancer
    Morris_Dancer Posts: 62,742
    Good morning, everyone.

    Oh noes! The French media might not be pro-British! Zut alors!

    :p
  • Gallowgate
    Gallowgate Posts: 20,709
    I think this day says a lot about us as a democracy. It isn't what the establishment wanted at all, yet here we are. Something to be proud of.
  • JosiasJessop
    JosiasJessop Posts: 46,250
    Gallowgate said:

    I think this day says a lot about us as a democracy. It isn't what the establishment wanted at all, yet here we are. Something to be proud of.

    Charles is as establishment as it gets, and he wanted it. ;)
  • Jonathan
    Jonathan Posts: 22,107
    Sad day.
  • Mortimer
    Mortimer Posts: 14,229
    edited March 2017
    Just a reminder that PBers can meet for drinks, celebrate or commiserate on this auspicious day at Truckles of Pied Bull Yard, 6pm this evening.

    Area booking should reference 'Mr Mortimer of PB'.

    Hope to see many of you there!
  • Sean_F
    Sean_F Posts: 39,132
    Bliss was it then to be alive!
  • Roger
    Roger Posts: 20,744
    We are leaving the most civilised and civilising club of 28 unique countries and 500,000,000 people to satisfy the xenophbic desires of petty nationalists and right wing zealots.

    This is no time for rejoicing.
  • RobD
    RobD Posts: 60,608
    JosiasJessop said:

    Well, we have 730 days to sort out the mess that the vote has left us. And it is not, as some claim, just up to leavers; it is up to all of us, whether we voted leave, remain, or just stayed at home.

    Remainers throwing their/our toys out of the pram will not help the UK succeed; likewise leavers sitting back and slapping themselves on the back. Our country has chosen a slightly harder course, and one where the rewards and hazards are greater. We all need to make it work.

    And congratulations to all the hardcore leavers; I hope the saner amongst you get what you want.

    Sensible.

    And thanks Puplstar for that thumbnail :)
  • Sean_F
    Sean_F Posts: 39,132
    Mortimer said:

    Just a reminder that PBers can meet for drinks, celebrate or commiserate on this auspicious day at Truckles of Pied Bull Yard, 6pm this evening.

    Area booking should reference 'Mr Mortimer of PB'.

    Hope to see many of you there!

    I should get there about 6.45.
  • IanB2
    IanB2 Posts: 52,310
    JosiasJessop said:

    Well, we have 730 days to sort out the mess that the vote has left us. And it is not, as some claim, just up to leavers; it is up to all of us, whether we voted leave, remain, or just stayed at home.

    Remainers throwing their/our toys out of the pram will not help the UK succeed; likewise leavers sitting back and slapping themselves on the back. Our country has chosen a slightly harder course, and one where the rewards and hazards are greater. We all need to make it work.

    And congratulations to all the hardcore leavers; I hope the saner amongst you get what you want.

    Sadly I fear the less sane will have the better chance.
  • chestnut
    chestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited March 2017
    FPT
    Roger said:

    We are leaving the most civilised and civilising club of 28 unique countries and 500,000,000 people to satisfy the xenophbic desires of some petty nationalists and right wing zealots.

    This is no time for rejoicing.

    The Left Wing Case for Brexit

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/28/opinion/why-brexit-is-best-for-britain-the-left-wing-case.html?_r=0

    "The human cost has been grotesque. The European Union’s economic waterboarding of Greece resulted in a quarter cut from hospital budgets and spending on drugs halved, while rates of H.I.V. infection spiked, cases of major depression doubled, suicide attempts rose by one-third, and the number of stillborn babies rose by 21 percent. Four in 10 Greek children were pushed into poverty, and one survey estimated that 54 percent of Greeks have become undernourished. Philippe Legrain, a former adviser to Manuel Barroso, then the president of the European Commission, observed that as “Europe’s creditor in chief” Germany “has trampled over values like democracy and national sovereignty and left a vassal state in its wake.”
  • RoyalBlue
    RoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    JosiasJessop said:

    Gallowgate said:

    I think this day says a lot about us as a democracy. It isn't what the establishment wanted at all, yet here we are. Something to be proud of.

    Charles is as establishment as it gets, and he wanted it. ;)
    Unfortunately (in some respects) people like Charles no longer run the country. They retain their wealth and considerable influence, but their values are very different to most in the City or Whitehall where most decisions are made.

    Perhaps Brexit will change that!
  • kle4
    kle4 Posts: 99,113
    A rubicon crossed. Many risks ahead. Now we shall see just how good May is, and how sensible the EU is. The opportunity us there for us each to get a good deal, it's time to stop the phony war threats and bullshit, and for us all to behave line the civilised and enlightened nations we claim we are and reach accommodation, not play to the gallery of our biggest idiots. It can be done, but it'll be a tricky one.
    JosiasJessop said:

    Gallowgate said:

    I think this day says a lot about us as a democracy. It isn't what the establishment wanted at all, yet here we are. Something to be proud of.

    Charles is as establishment as it gets, and he wanted it. ;)
    The establishment was not united on this,
  • JosiasJessop
    JosiasJessop Posts: 46,250
    Instead of a wet signature, perhaps Mrs May should have signed on a tattoo:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyNYQALwP38

    Hopefully the split from the EU will be slightly less bloody than the video ... ;)
  • Jonathan
    Jonathan Posts: 22,107
    Since the track record of Westminster/Whitehall/The City is so good,Britain will surely prosper.

    No wait! The opposite of that. More managed decline to come?
  • daodao
    daodao Posts: 821
    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    First like Farron

    Over the parapet?
    Against the wall?
    Into the footnotes of history?
    This is a historic week and marks a key moment in the transformation of the UK into little England (& Wales, for the time being), impoverished both financially and in terms of international influence. The inevitable hard Brexit is incompatible with a long-term future for the UK as it is currently constituted or survival of the current political arrangements in the north of Ireland.

    The vote for Sindy2 yesterday at Holyrood, and the failure to form a government to administer the 6 counties due to the obstinacy of the "No" party there, are also significant events. Is there a betting market on Michelle O'Neill becoming Taoiseach of a united Eire?
  • kle4
    kle4 Posts: 99,113
    Roger said:

    We are leaving the most civilised and civilising club of 28 unique countries and 500,000,000 people to satisfy the xenophbic desires of petty nationalists and right wing zealots.
    .

    There's absolutely no reason we need to be less civilised just because we're leaving the EU, it is not some inevitability as though civilisation did not exist before its creation, get a grip. It is possible to be uncivilised within it too. So the key is for those of this country to fight to ensure we remain civilised, rather than act as though all hope is lost just because a single, albeit momentous, decision.

    But I'm off - the histrionics are going to be absurd today, the Lamentations cringeworthy and the exultations overblown and embarrassing.
  • daodao
    daodao Posts: 821
    williamglenn said:

    Will the last nation to leave the UK please turn out the lights.

    Cymru am byth?!
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806
    ‪This should be fun. ‬

    https://twitter.com/RobbieGibb/status/846980532655341569
  • Paristonda
    Paristonda Posts: 1,844
    In other news, Valls has officially said this morning that he will vote for Macron in round1, not Hamon. Not surprising in itself, but could still be good news for Macron. Valls isn't popular as such, but he still won ~1/3 of PS voters in the primary. Any lingering PS loyalists may be tempted to make the leap to Macron especially given Hamon's lacklustre performance to date.

    Macron strengthened slightly this morning for round 1. Struggling to see anything other than Macron and Le Pen in round 2 now.
  • RobD
    RobD Posts: 60,608
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪This should be fun. ‬

    twitter.com/RobbieGibb/status/846980532655341569

    Brave or stupid? Glad Neil has a big name interview though, it was almost as if people were avoiding him!
  • kle4
    kle4 Posts: 99,113
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪This should be fun. ‬

    https://twitter.com/RobbieGibb/status/846980532655341569

    A good test of his skills, this must be no softball interview. Supporter or not, of whatever srentpgth, of the path we are on, hard and serious conversation is needed at ll levels.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806
    Boom.

    Former French prime minister Manuel Valls has said he will vote for centrist candidate Emmanuel Macron rather than the Socialist contender in France’s presidential election.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/29/france-manuel-valls-backs-emmanuel-macron-presidential-election
  • Big_G_NorthWales
    Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,238
    Roger said:

    We are leaving the most civilised and civilising club of 28 unique countries and 500,000,000 people to satisfy the xenophbic desires of petty nationalists and right wing zealots.

    This is no time for rejoicing.

    There are extremes on both left and right but it is time to get together and make this work. As a former remainer and now a leaver today is the day a democratic vote was respected but I will only celebrate once a mutually beneficial deal is agreed
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806
    RobD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪This should be fun. ‬

    twitter.com/RobbieGibb/status/846980532655341569

    Brave or stupid? Glad Neil has a big name interview though, it was almost as if people were avoiding him!
    Andrew Neil is the interviewer who does the most research before an interview.

    Sometimes Mrs May can't beat Corbyn at PMQs, this could be grim for her.
  • Big_G_NorthWales
    Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,238
    IanB2 said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Well, we have 730 days to sort out the mess that the vote has left us. And it is not, as some claim, just up to leavers; it is up to all of us, whether we voted leave, remain, or just stayed at home.

    Remainers throwing their/our toys out of the pram will not help the UK succeed; likewise leavers sitting back and slapping themselves on the back. Our country has chosen a slightly harder course, and one where the rewards and hazards are greater. We all need to make it work.

    And congratulations to all the hardcore leavers; I hope the saner amongst you get what you want.

    Sadly I fear the less sane will have the better chance.
    I genuinely believe both the extreme soft and hard remainers and leavers will be overwhelmed by the majority who seek compromise which will be the end result
  • Monksfield
    Monksfield Posts: 2,905
    I see we've already adopted the Americanism of having to have a flag in shot behind the PM.

    That's part of the photo that could date quite quickly mind now independence is all the rage.
  • TOPPING
    TOPPING Posts: 44,060
    On topic

    Has anyone read Riddle of the Sands? I am a third of the way through it and need some encouragement to push on.

    Off topic

    Just as we do with a Labour government, we'll manage with Brexit although I fear for those who aren't scions of banking dynasties, well paid authors, or on six figure salaries.
  • OldKingCole
    OldKingCole Posts: 35,270
    Inclined to agree with Mr kle4; there’s going to be some breast beating and lamentation on one side and gloating on the other.

    I hope for the best but fear for the worst. The EU isn’t perfect, and made some serious mistakes but it was, at base, a source of hope.
  • RobD
    RobD Posts: 60,608
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    RobD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪This should be fun. ‬

    twitter.com/RobbieGibb/status/846980532655341569

    Brave or stupid? Glad Neil has a big name interview though, it was almost as if people were avoiding him!
    Andrew Neil is the interviewer who does the most research before an interview.

    Sometimes Mrs May can't beat Corbyn at PMQs, this could be grim for her.
    I know that, you know that, I hope the people in No 10 know that!
  • jonny83
    jonny83 Posts: 1,273
    RobD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪This should be fun. ‬

    twitter.com/RobbieGibb/status/846980532655341569

    Brave or stupid? Glad Neil has a big name interview though, it was almost as if people were avoiding him!
    Kind of shocked she is doing this. I mean she obviously wants to reassure the nation in a prime time interview but to be interviewed by Neil especially when presumably there will be a lot of talk about the economics of Brexit (Neil iirc has a strong economics background, seen him skewer a lot of ministers and shadow ministers on that area) is very surprising.

    Wonder how Neil will play this considering what the nation needs right now with so much fear and division over the whole subject of Brexit.
  • Morris_Dancer
    Morris_Dancer Posts: 62,742
    Mr. Mortimer, hope you, and others, have a pleasant evening.
  • MarqueeMark
    MarqueeMark Posts: 55,458
    So, here we are, a day I never expected to happen when the Referendum was called, but we can celebrate the democratic will of the people of the United Kingdom being implemented. A democratic will that could so easily have been subsumed into the grotesque, bloated undemocratic European "Project" that none of us had voted to sign up to.

    Well done, people. And it may prove awkward, and troubling, and worrying, and yes, maybe even a little bit scary. But at least the right to Kick The Buggers Out burns brightly on our little islands, a light that many on the mainland in Europe will come to look upon with envious eyes in the decades to come.
  • Monksfield
    Monksfield Posts: 2,905
    JosiasJessop said:

    Gallowgate said:

    I think this day says a lot about us as a democracy. It isn't what the establishment wanted at all, yet here we are. Something to be proud of.

    Charles is as establishment as it gets, and he wanted it. ;)
    Quite, the 'old' establishment is dead keen on it.
  • williamglenn
    williamglenn Posts: 56,289
    jonny83 said:

    RobD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪This should be fun. ‬

    twitter.com/RobbieGibb/status/846980532655341569

    Brave or stupid? Glad Neil has a big name interview though, it was almost as if people were avoiding him!
    Kind of shocked she is doing this. I mean she obviously wants to reassure the nation in a prime time interview but to be interviewed by Neil especially when presumably there will be a lot of talk about the economics of Brexit (Neil iirc has a strong economics background, seen him skewer a lot of ministers and shadow ministers on that area) is very surprising.

    Wonder how Neil will play this considering what the nation needs right now with so much fear and division over the whole subject of Brexit.
    Neil is also a strong unionist so there's probably a tacit understanding that he will help her stick it to the SNP.
  • MonikerDiCanio
    MonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    An Irish Guard.
  • kle4
    kle4 Posts: 99,113
    edited March 2017
    jonny83 said:

    RobD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪This should be fun. ‬

    twitter.com/RobbieGibb/status/846980532655341569

    Brave or stupid? Glad Neil has a big name interview though, it was almost as if people were avoiding him!
    Kind of shocked she is doing this. I mean she obviously wants to reassure the nation in a prime time interview but to be interviewed by Neil especially when presumably there will be a lot of talk about the economics of Brexit (Neil iirc has a strong economics background, seen him skewer a lot of ministers and shadow ministers on that area) is very surprising.

    Wonder how Neil will play this considering what the nation needs right now with so much fear and division over the whole subject of Brexit.
    To alleviate that what we need is to be assured by the leadership we have. The best case scenario is he is tough, persistent and serious in his questioning, and May rises to that challenge rather than fall back on nonsensical slogans, partisan jabs and diversions. Going soft on her would not be much of a service to the country, it is her job to deal with this very tough issue, and if she struggles with him that would be concerning, but it would be early enough for us to know and try to prepare.
  • glw
    glw Posts: 10,463
    TOPPING said:

    On topic

    Has anyone read Riddle of the Sands? I am a third of the way through it and need some encouragement to push on.

    It doesn't get any better.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Well said Marquee Mark.
    A frabjous joyful day indeed!
  • Morris_Dancer
    Morris_Dancer Posts: 62,742
    Mr. Mark, indeed. I was astonished the day after the vote.

    PM May agreeing to be interviewed by Andrew Neil shows some guts. Whether she is seen to have brains will depend on the result.
  • Tissue_Price
    Tissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    edited March 2017
    Well, the A50 has just triggered me. The roadworks near the bet365 Stadium are causing queueing traffic for miles.

    Looking forward to meeting many of you at Truckles later.
  • Jonathan
    Jonathan Posts: 22,107
    MarqueeMark said:

    So, here we are, a day I never expected to happen when the Referendum was called, but we can celebrate the democratic will of the people of the United Kingdom being implemented. A democratic will that could so easily have been subsumed into the grotesque, bloated undemocratic European "Project" that none of us had voted to sign up to.

    Well done, people. And it may prove awkward, and troubling, and worrying, and yes, maybe even a little bit scary. But at least the right to Kick The Buggers Out burns brightly on our little islands, a light that many on the mainland in Europe will come to look upon with envious eyes in the decades to come.

    If only jingoist twaddle paid the bills or kept the peace.
  • Roger
    Roger Posts: 20,744
    Mortimer said:

    Just a reminder that PBers can meet for drinks, celebrate or commiserate on this auspicious day at Truckles of Pied Bull Yard, 6pm this evening.

    Area booking should reference 'Mr Mortimer of PB'.

    Hope to see many of you there!

    Friends and family welcome

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/89/33/eb/8933ebcab2248ed74cb03dd3c58d4aa6.jpg
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    Monksfield said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Gallowgate said:

    I think this day says a lot about us as a democracy. It isn't what the establishment wanted at all, yet here we are. Something to be proud of.

    Charles is as establishment as it gets, and he wanted it. ;)
    Quite, the 'old' establishment is dead keen on it.
    Indeed, tlg86 voted to leave as well ;)
  • Sean_F
    Sean_F Posts: 39,132
    Monksfield said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Gallowgate said:

    I think this day says a lot about us as a democracy. It isn't what the establishment wanted at all, yet here we are. Something to be proud of.

    Charles is as establishment as it gets, and he wanted it. ;)
    Quite, the 'old' establishment is dead keen on it.
    There are rival elites. The elite that dominated politics from about 1990-2015 (Blairite/Cameroon/London -based/internationalist) was beaten, no two ways about it. But, Charles' type of elite is different, more rural, old money, traditionalist Conservative. They'll be very happy with the outcome of the vote.
  • david_herdson
    david_herdson Posts: 18,357
    I think the question isn't so much whether Brexit is a good thing or not but whether it's a necessary thing. The country is certainly divided on the former but I'm not sure it is on the latter. A lot of Remainers will accept that triggering A50 is the right thing to do given the referendum result, even if they'd still rather it had gone the other way.
  • Jonathan
    Jonathan Posts: 22,107
    Sean_F said:

    Monksfield said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Gallowgate said:

    I think this day says a lot about us as a democracy. It isn't what the establishment wanted at all, yet here we are. Something to be proud of.

    Charles is as establishment as it gets, and he wanted it. ;)
    Quite, the 'old' establishment is dead keen on it.
    There are rival elites. The elite that dominated politics from about 1990-2015 (Blairite/Cameroon/London -based/internationalist) was beaten, no two ways about it. But, Charles' type of elite is different, more rural, old money, traditionalist Conservative. They'll be very happy with the outcome of the vote.
    A return to managed decline.
  • jonny83
    jonny83 Posts: 1,273
    I can see some of May's answers being she can't reveal some things because it's part of the negotiations and obviously you don't reveal your hand. Neil will of course push back against that so it will be interesting to see how she responds.
  • williamglenn
    williamglenn Posts: 56,289
    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    Monksfield said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Gallowgate said:

    I think this day says a lot about us as a democracy. It isn't what the establishment wanted at all, yet here we are. Something to be proud of.

    Charles is as establishment as it gets, and he wanted it. ;)
    Quite, the 'old' establishment is dead keen on it.
    There are rival elites. The elite that dominated politics from about 1990-2015 (Blairite/Cameroon/London -based/internationalist) was beaten, no two ways about it. But, Charles' type of elite is different, more rural, old money, traditionalist Conservative. They'll be very happy with the outcome of the vote.
    A return to managed decline.
    I think it's more like creative destruction. The problem is that no-one yet knows what exactly we're destroying.
  • chestnut
    chestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited March 2017
    Jonathan said:

    Since the track record of Westminster/Whitehall/The City is so good,Britain will surely prosper.

    No wait! The opposite of that. More managed decline to come?

    We are still in the process of undoing the damage of the 1997-2010 governments, Jonathan.

    The job is done on unemployment, done on inflation and virtually done on the deficit. The latter should, if sustained, start eroding the debt pile.

    Some of the client state policies have been dealt with but there is more distance to travel and being out of the EU has become virtually essental to achieve this along with building a sensible welfare state where contribution and British birthright are the only routes in.

    We must also rectify the trade gap. We have been peripheralised within Europe as it has moved eastwards, whilst being simultaneously barred from flexing our muscles with the rest of the world even when we are the EU's most significant member in bi-lateral relationships.

    Finally, the devolution mess needs to be dealt with.

    All in all it will take until the mid 2020s.
  • JosiasJessop
    JosiasJessop Posts: 46,250
    MarqueeMark said:

    So, here we are, a day I never expected to happen when the Referendum was called, but we can celebrate the democratic will of the people of the United Kingdom being implemented. A democratic will that could so easily have been subsumed into the grotesque, bloated undemocratic European "Project" that none of us had voted to sign up to.

    Well done, people. And it may prove awkward, and troubling, and worrying, and yes, maybe even a little bit scary. But at least the right to Kick The Buggers Out burns brightly on our little islands, a light that many on the mainland in Europe will come to look upon with envious eyes in the decades to come.

    An issue is that for the less sane leavers "Kick The Buggers Out" is meant literally.

    Instead, I'd prefer to say: "All welcome if you can contribute."
  • david_herdson
    david_herdson Posts: 18,357
    jonny83 said:

    RobD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪This should be fun. ‬

    twitter.com/RobbieGibb/status/846980532655341569

    Brave or stupid? Glad Neil has a big name interview though, it was almost as if people were avoiding him!
    Kind of shocked she is doing this. I mean she obviously wants to reassure the nation in a prime time interview but to be interviewed by Neil especially when presumably there will be a lot of talk about the economics of Brexit (Neil iirc has a strong economics background, seen him skewer a lot of ministers and shadow ministers on that area) is very surprising.

    Wonder how Neil will play this considering what the nation needs right now with so much fear and division over the whole subject of Brexit.
    If May can't handle Neil then we can't have much confidence in her ability to handle the Commission and 27 other governments. I don't expect that many bland generalisations because Neil will rightly pick her up on that but I do think she'll play a guarded hand on details to protect Britain's negotiating position.
  • MarqueeMark
    MarqueeMark Posts: 55,458
    Jonathan said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    So, here we are, a day I never expected to happen when the Referendum was called, but we can celebrate the democratic will of the people of the United Kingdom being implemented. A democratic will that could so easily have been subsumed into the grotesque, bloated undemocratic European "Project" that none of us had voted to sign up to.

    Well done, people. And it may prove awkward, and troubling, and worrying, and yes, maybe even a little bit scary. But at least the right to Kick The Buggers Out burns brightly on our little islands, a light that many on the mainland in Europe will come to look upon with envious eyes in the decades to come.

    If only jingoist twaddle paid the bills or kept the peace.
    We have paid more than enough in to help keep the European jingoistic twaddle going for forty-odd years. For what? What do we have to show for forty-odd years of heavy, heavy subscriptions? Bugger all.

    The reason the Remain side lost was that there was so little to argue for the benefits to the UK of being inside this grandiose folly.

    And so we are leaving. Well done us.
  • Tissue_Price
    Tissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    david_herdson said:

    jonny83 said:

    RobD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪This should be fun. ‬

    twitter.com/RobbieGibb/status/846980532655341569

    Brave or stupid? Glad Neil has a big name interview though, it was almost as if people were avoiding him!
    Kind of shocked she is doing this. I mean she obviously wants to reassure the nation in a prime time interview but to be interviewed by Neil especially when presumably there will be a lot of talk about the economics of Brexit (Neil iirc has a strong economics background, seen him skewer a lot of ministers and shadow ministers on that area) is very surprising.

    Wonder how Neil will play this considering what the nation needs right now with so much fear and division over the whole subject of Brexit.
    If May can't handle Neil then we can't have much confidence in her ability to handle the Commission and 27 other governments. I don't expect that many bland generalisations because Neil will rightly pick her up on that but I do think she'll play a guarded hand on details to protect Britain's negotiating position.
    Andrew Neil is a smart choice - a difficulty level appropriate to the occasion. He's still going to give her a hard enough time but [I think] it's pretty clear he's broadly in favour of Brexit and also understands how negotiations work. He won't waste his and our time prodding for answers she can't possibly give.
  • Fat_Steve
    Fat_Steve Posts: 361
    MarqueeMark said:

    So, here we are, a day I never expected to happen when the Referendum was called, but we can celebrate the democratic will of the people of the United Kingdom being implemented. A democratic will that could so easily have been subsumed into the grotesque, bloated undemocratic European "Project" that none of us had voted to sign up to.

    Well done, people. And it may prove awkward, and troubling, and worrying, and yes, maybe even a little bit scary. But at least the right to Kick The Buggers Out burns brightly on our little islands, a light that many on the mainland in Europe will come to look upon with envious eyes in the decades to come.

    Agreed. I was probably 55 to 45 leavish in my sympathies when the referendum was first called. I could have gone either way. But right to kick the buggers out was the clincher.
  • Morris_Dancer
    Morris_Dancer Posts: 62,742
    Mr. Mark, the key aspect for strong Remainers may [obviously I wasn't one] have been the soft side, the emotional sentiment. Less of a numbers game, more pathos rather than logos.

    I do think it's worth remembering that the vast majority aren't leavers or remainers with a capital, despite us, and the media, using the terms as if the country's riven down the middle by two diametrically opposed groups of people, both of whom subscribe to a particular orthodoxy.

    Most people are soft, one way or the other.

    Mr. Jonathan, I'd like to see a strong focus on technology, science and keeping high end manufacturing of new products here (we're rather good at this in F1). I'll believe it when I see it, though.

    As for managed decline: if you anticipate failure, you're halfway there already.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806
    Tissue_Price said:

    david_herdson said:

    jonny83 said:

    RobD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪This should be fun. ‬

    twitter.com/RobbieGibb/status/846980532655341569

    Brave or stupid? Glad Neil has a big name interview though, it was almost as if people were avoiding him!
    Kind of shocked she is doing this. I mean she obviously wants to reassure the nation in a prime time interview but to be interviewed by Neil especially when presumably there will be a lot of talk about the economics of Brexit (Neil iirc has a strong economics background, seen him skewer a lot of ministers and shadow ministers on that area) is very surprising.

    Wonder how Neil will play this considering what the nation needs right now with so much fear and division over the whole subject of Brexit.
    If May can't handle Neil then we can't have much confidence in her ability to handle the Commission and 27 other governments. I don't expect that many bland generalisations because Neil will rightly pick her up on that but I do think she'll play a guarded hand on details to protect Britain's negotiating position.
    Andrew Neil is a smart choice - a difficulty level appropriate to the occasion. He's still going to give her a hard enough time but [I think] it's pretty clear he's broadly in favour of Brexit and also understands how negotiations work. He won't waste his and our time prodding for answers she can't possibly give.
    Further proof that the BBC is the biased Brexit Broadcasting Corporation.
  • Roger
    Roger Posts: 20,744
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Roger said:

    We are leaving the most civilised and civilising club of 28 unique countries and 500,000,000 people to satisfy the xenophbic desires of petty nationalists and right wing zealots.

    This is no time for rejoicing.

    There are extremes on both left and right but it is time to get together and make this work. As a former remainer and now a leaver today is the day a democratic vote was respected but I will only celebrate once a mutually beneficial deal is agreed
    We are throwing away a cultural Jewel unique in the civilised world.

    How exactly do we make it work?
  • tlg86
    tlg86 Posts: 26,950
    Pulpstar said:

    Monksfield said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Gallowgate said:

    I think this day says a lot about us as a democracy. It isn't what the establishment wanted at all, yet here we are. Something to be proud of.

    Charles is as establishment as it gets, and he wanted it. ;)
    Quite, the 'old' establishment is dead keen on it.
    Indeed, tlg86 voted to leave as well ;)
    I can assure you I am literally EINO.
  • Tissue_Price
    Tissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    david_herdson said:

    jonny83 said:

    RobD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪This should be fun. ‬

    twitter.com/RobbieGibb/status/846980532655341569

    Brave or stupid? Glad Neil has a big name interview though, it was almost as if people were avoiding him!
    Kind of shocked she is doing this. I mean she obviously wants to reassure the nation in a prime time interview but to be interviewed by Neil especially when presumably there will be a lot of talk about the economics of Brexit (Neil iirc has a strong economics background, seen him skewer a lot of ministers and shadow ministers on that area) is very surprising.

    Wonder how Neil will play this considering what the nation needs right now with so much fear and division over the whole subject of Brexit.
    If May can't handle Neil then we can't have much confidence in her ability to handle the Commission and 27 other governments. I don't expect that many bland generalisations because Neil will rightly pick her up on that but I do think she'll play a guarded hand on details to protect Britain's negotiating position.
    Andrew Neil is a smart choice - a difficulty level appropriate to the occasion. He's still going to give her a hard enough time but [I think] it's pretty clear he's broadly in favour of Brexit and also understands how negotiations work. He won't waste his and our time prodding for answers she can't possibly give.
    Further proof that the BBC is the biased Brexit Broadcasting Corporation.
    It's no wonder Osborne kept ducking Neil, isn't it?
  • rural_voter
    rural_voter Posts: 2,038
    williamglenn said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    Monksfield said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Gallowgate said:

    I think this day says a lot about us as a democracy. It isn't what the establishment wanted at all, yet here we are. Something to be proud of.

    Charles is as establishment as it gets, and he wanted it. ;)
    Quite, the 'old' establishment is dead keen on it.
    There are rival elites. The elite that dominated politics from about 1990-2015 (Blairite/Cameroon/London -based/internationalist) was beaten, no two ways about it. But, Charles' type of elite is different, more rural, old money, traditionalist Conservative. They'll be very happy with the outcome of the vote.
    A return to managed decline.
    I think it's more like creative destruction. The problem is that no-one yet knows what exactly we're destroying.
    In the words of Sir Richard Mottram, although I'd replace 'department' by 'country':

    'We're all f****d. I'm f****d. You're f****d. The whole department is f****d. It's the biggest cock-up ever. We're all completely f****d.'

    (The sentence takes a long time to insert the asterisks but I know some people are a bit sensitive to expletives.)
  • Morris_Dancer
    Morris_Dancer Posts: 62,742
    Mr. Eagles, I found myself greatly surprised to be a bit irked at how biased in a Leave direction a piece of the news was yesterday. Kuenssberg[sp] had 5 business leaders, almost uniformly positive.

    It didn't add much to the debate because everyone was singing from the same hymn sheet.

    Mr. Roger, what do you see as the cultural benefits?
  • GIN1138
    GIN1138 Posts: 22,938
    edited March 2017
    Morning PB,

    Happy Brexit Day. :smiley:
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806
    Tissue_Price said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    david_herdson said:

    jonny83 said:

    RobD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪This should be fun. ‬

    twitter.com/RobbieGibb/status/846980532655341569

    Brave or stupid? Glad Neil has a big name interview though, it was almost as if people were avoiding him!
    Kind of shocked she is doing this. I mean she obviously wants to reassure the nation in a prime time interview but to be interviewed by Neil especially when presumably there will be a lot of talk about the economics of Brexit (Neil iirc has a strong economics background, seen him skewer a lot of ministers and shadow ministers on that area) is very surprising.

    Wonder how Neil will play this considering what the nation needs right now with so much fear and division over the whole subject of Brexit.
    If May can't handle Neil then we can't have much confidence in her ability to handle the Commission and 27 other governments. I don't expect that many bland generalisations because Neil will rightly pick her up on that but I do think she'll play a guarded hand on details to protect Britain's negotiating position.
    Andrew Neil is a smart choice - a difficulty level appropriate to the occasion. He's still going to give her a hard enough time but [I think] it's pretty clear he's broadly in favour of Brexit and also understands how negotiations work. He won't waste his and our time prodding for answers she can't possibly give.
    Further proof that the BBC is the biased Brexit Broadcasting Corporation.
    It's no wonder Osborne kept ducking Neil, isn't it?
    George ain't stupid.
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    williamglenn said:

    Will the last nation to leave the UK please turn out the lights.

    None on present polling
  • Monksfield
    Monksfield Posts: 2,905
    If nothing else, I'm glad we've got to today. It's the end of the phoney war, which May has been able to exploit hugely to her and the Tories advantage. Running around cultivating her mutti persona and being all things to all people.

    From now on, we're going to see real decisions and there will be winners (maybe) and losers. Today is peak Tory and for that I am delighted.

    All we need now is an opposition.
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    That Liberation article is not really negative just looking at the pros and cons of Brexit for the UK
  • Theuniondivvie
    Theuniondivvie Posts: 44,327
    TOPPING said:

    On topic

    Has anyone read Riddle of the Sands? I am a third of the way through it and need some encouragement to push on.

    Off topic

    Just as we do with a Labour government, we'll manage with Brexit although I fear for those who aren't scions of banking dynasties, well paid authors, or on six figure salaries.

    I gave up after less than a third.
    That's not helping much, is it?
  • Richard_Tyndall
    Richard_Tyndall Posts: 33,463
    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    Monksfield said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Gallowgate said:

    I think this day says a lot about us as a democracy. It isn't what the establishment wanted at all, yet here we are. Something to be proud of.

    Charles is as establishment as it gets, and he wanted it. ;)
    Quite, the 'old' establishment is dead keen on it.
    There are rival elites. The elite that dominated politics from about 1990-2015 (Blairite/Cameroon/London -based/internationalist) was beaten, no two ways about it. But, Charles' type of elite is different, more rural, old money, traditionalist Conservative. They'll be very happy with the outcome of the vote.
    A return to managed decline.
    Nope. Managed decline is what Blair and the Cameroons perpetuated. I have far more faith in the future of our country now than I have ever had in the past. And people like Charles who you apparently scorn have far more attachment to, and care for, the country than the career politicians we have had running and ruining things for the couple of decades.
  • MonikerDiCanio
    MonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    Roger said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Roger said:

    We are leaving the most civilised and civilising club of 28 unique countries and 500,000,000 people to satisfy the xenophbic desires of petty nationalists and right wing zealots.

    This is no time for rejoicing.

    There are extremes on both left and right but it is time to get together and make this work. As a former remainer and now a leaver today is the day a democratic vote was respected but I will only celebrate once a mutually beneficial deal is agreed
    We are throwing away a cultural Jewel unique in the civilised world.

    How exactly do we make it work?
    Quite the reverse. We're preserving the jewel of British democracy which was menaced by an unelected bureaucracy.
  • TOPPING
    TOPPING Posts: 44,060
    glw said:

    TOPPING said:

    On topic

    Has anyone read Riddle of the Sands? I am a third of the way through it and need some encouragement to push on.

    It doesn't get any better.
    Thank you! It is interesting enough as a period piece but it is also quite tortuous.
  • Fat_Steve
    Fat_Steve Posts: 361
    JosiasJessop said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    So, here we are, a day I never expected to happen when the Referendum was called, but we can celebrate the democratic will of the people of the United Kingdom being implemented. A democratic will that could so easily have been subsumed into the grotesque, bloated undemocratic European "Project" that none of us had voted to sign up to.

    Well done, people. And it may prove awkward, and troubling, and worrying, and yes, maybe even a little bit scary. But at least the right to Kick The Buggers Out burns brightly on our little islands, a light that many on the mainland in Europe will come to look upon with envious eyes in the decades to come.

    An issue is that for the less sane leavers "Kick The Buggers Out" is meant literally.

    Instead, I'd prefer to say: "All welcome if you can contribute."
    JosiasJessop said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    So, here we are, a day I never expected to happen when the Referendum was called, but we can celebrate the democratic will of the people of the United Kingdom being implemented. A democratic will that could so easily have been subsumed into the grotesque, bloated undemocratic European "Project" that none of us had voted to sign up to.

    Well done, people. And it may prove awkward, and troubling, and worrying, and yes, maybe even a little bit scary. But at least the right to Kick The Buggers Out burns brightly on our little islands, a light that many on the mainland in Europe will come to look upon with envious eyes in the decades to come.

    An issue is that for the less sane leavers "Kick The Buggers Out" is meant literally.

    Instead, I'd prefer to say: "All welcome if you can contribute."
    I think he means governmental buggers rather than immigrant buggers
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    So Brexit is underway and in 2 years time I think we end up with fudged Brexit, a work permit/job offer requirement for migrants, some continued EU budget contributions and a few bilateral agreements in key sectors of the economy which May allow for a future FTA. Remoamers, especially the LDs, will still Remoan we are not part of the single market, hardcore Leavers, especially UKIP, will still cry betrayal but most of the country will accept the deal and Brexit will be done
  • JosiasJessop
    JosiasJessop Posts: 46,250
    edited March 2017
    Fat_Steve said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    So, here we are, a day I never expected to happen when the Referendum was called, but we can celebrate the democratic will of the people of the United Kingdom being implemented. A democratic will that could so easily have been subsumed into the grotesque, bloated undemocratic European "Project" that none of us had voted to sign up to.

    Well done, people. And it may prove awkward, and troubling, and worrying, and yes, maybe even a little bit scary. But at least the right to Kick The Buggers Out burns brightly on our little islands, a light that many on the mainland in Europe will come to look upon with envious eyes in the decades to come.

    An issue is that for the less sane leavers "Kick The Buggers Out" is meant literally.

    Instead, I'd prefer to say: "All welcome if you can contribute."
    I think he means governmental buggers rather than immigrant buggers
    Perhaps. But he hasn't kicked 'them' out, has he? Cameron and Osborne have gone, but the rest of the government are pretty much as they are before June last year. And it's not as if the civil service has changed.

    It's an utterly ridiculous way to talk, and quite a dangerous one.
  • chestnut
    chestnut Posts: 7,341
    HYUFD said:

    williamglenn said:

    Will the last nation to leave the UK please turn out the lights.

    None on present polling
    We keep hearing that the country is disintegrating yet there is little sign that anything has changed.

    We keep hearing what a spiteful, unwelcoming and unattractive place we've become yet 300,000 more people have arrived.

    The gap between Remainer rhetoric and reality.
  • JosiasJessop
    JosiasJessop Posts: 46,250
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    Monksfield said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Gallowgate said:

    I think this day says a lot about us as a democracy. It isn't what the establishment wanted at all, yet here we are. Something to be proud of.

    Charles is as establishment as it gets, and he wanted it. ;)
    Quite, the 'old' establishment is dead keen on it.
    There are rival elites. The elite that dominated politics from about 1990-2015 (Blairite/Cameroon/London -based/internationalist) was beaten, no two ways about it. But, Charles' type of elite is different, more rural, old money, traditionalist Conservative. They'll be very happy with the outcome of the vote.
    A return to managed decline.
    Nope. Managed decline is what Blair and the Cameroons perpetuated. I have far more faith in the future of our country now than I have ever had in the past. And people like Charles who you apparently scorn have far more attachment to, and care for, the country than the career politicians we have had running and ruining things for the couple of decades.
    Sorry to say this, but that's rubbish on so many levels. It's simply a rewording of the stupid idea that people I agree with must be patriots, and those I disagree with traitors.
  • Morris_Dancer
    Morris_Dancer Posts: 62,742
    This executive order looks rather dodgy. Allows for easier sale (if signed), without permission, of personal data:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-39427026
  • Big_G_NorthWales
    Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,238
    HYUFD said:

    So Brexit is underway and in 2 years time I think we end up with fudged Brexit, a work permit/job offer requirement for migrants, some continued EU budget contributions and a few bilateral agreements in key sectors of the economy which May allow for a future FTA. Remoamers, especially the LDs, will still Remoan we are not part of the single market, hardcore Leavers, especially UKIP, will still cry betrayal but most of the country will accept the deal and Brexit will be done

    Very much agree that this will be the likely outcome
  • logical_song
    logical_song Posts: 10,082
    Monksfield said:

    If nothing else, I'm glad we've got to today. It's the end of the phoney war, which May has been able to exploit hugely to her and the Tories advantage. Running around cultivating her mutti persona and being all things to all people.

    From now on, we're going to see real decisions and there will be winners (maybe) and losers. Today is peak Tory and for that I am delighted.

    All we need now is an opposition.

    The devil is in the detail.
    Real Clear Politics on how Obamacare was consistently unpopular until people saw the proposed changes http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html
    Now let's see what happens with Brexit.
  • Richard_Tyndall
    Richard_Tyndall Posts: 33,463
    rural_voter said:

    williamglenn said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    Monksfield said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Gallowgate said:

    I think this day says a lot about us as a democracy. It isn't what the establishment wanted at all, yet here we are. Something to be proud of.

    Charles is as establishment as it gets, and he wanted it. ;)
    Quite, the 'old' establishment is dead keen on it.
    There are rival elites. The elite that dominated politics from about 1990-2015 (Blairite/Cameroon/London -based/internationalist) was beaten, no two ways about it. But, Charles' type of elite is different, more rural, old money, traditionalist Conservative. They'll be very happy with the outcome of the vote.
    A return to managed decline.
    I think it's more like creative destruction. The problem is that no-one yet knows what exactly we're destroying.
    In the words of Sir Richard Mottram, although I'd replace 'department' by 'country':

    'We're all f****d. I'm f****d. You're f****d. The whole department is f****d. It's the biggest cock-up ever. We're all completely f****d.'

    (The sentence takes a long time to insert the asterisks but I know some people are a bit sensitive to expletives.)
    Interesting you should interchange the words "department" and "country" because of course that is very much what Ken Clarke and other Eurofanatics like williamglenn would like to see.

    Clarke's quote was: "I look forward to the day when the Westminster Parliament is just a council chamber in Europe"

    Thankfully that day will now not come and Clarke can go to his grave knowing his life's work is in ruins.
  • Jonathan
    Jonathan Posts: 22,107
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    Monksfield said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Gallowgate said:

    I think this day says a lot about us as a democracy. It isn't what the establishment wanted at all, yet here we are. Something to be proud of.

    Charles is as establishment as it gets, and he wanted it. ;)
    Quite, the 'old' establishment is dead keen on it.
    There are rival elites. The elite that dominated politics from about 1990-2015 (Blairite/Cameroon/London -based/internationalist) was beaten, no two ways about it. But, Charles' type of elite is different, more rural, old money, traditionalist Conservative. They'll be very happy with the outcome of the vote.
    A return to managed decline.
    Nope. Managed decline is what Blair and the Cameroons perpetuated. I have far more faith in the future of our country now than I have ever had in the past. And people like Charles who you apparently scorn have far more attachment to, and care for, the country than the career politicians we have had running and ruining things for the couple of decades.
    I love Charles. I don't know what you mean.

    That said, who seriously wants the old boy network running the country again? The auld elite failed absolutely and profoundly. I'll take the last forty years over what preceded it.
  • MarqueeMark
    MarqueeMark Posts: 55,458
    JosiasJessop said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    So, here we are, a day I never expected to happen when the Referendum was called, but we can celebrate the democratic will of the people of the United Kingdom being implemented. A democratic will that could so easily have been subsumed into the grotesque, bloated undemocratic European "Project" that none of us had voted to sign up to.

    Well done, people. And it may prove awkward, and troubling, and worrying, and yes, maybe even a little bit scary. But at least the right to Kick The Buggers Out burns brightly on our little islands, a light that many on the mainland in Europe will come to look upon with envious eyes in the decades to come.

    An issue is that for the less sane leavers "Kick The Buggers Out" is meant literally.

    Instead, I'd prefer to say: "All welcome if you can contribute."
    I think he means governmental buggers rather than immigrant buggers
    Perhaps. But he hasn't kicked 'them' out, has he? Cameron and Osborne have gone, but the rest of the government are pretty much as they are before June last year. And it's not as if the civil service has changed.

    It's an utterly ridiculous way to talk, and quite a dangerous one.

    A ridiculous way to talk? Dangerous? Hahahaha. Let's just agree to differ on this, shall we?

    By 2020, the UK will have its chance to Kick The Buggers Out. When will be next vote be timetabled when the EU can kick out the Eurocrat buggers? When can democracy derail The Great European Project? You want to talk dangerous? That's dangerous, right there. Robbing the voters of any meaningful engagement in the democratic process.
  • MarqueeMark
    MarqueeMark Posts: 55,458
    HYUFD said:

    So Brexit is underway and in 2 years time I think we end up with fudged Brexit, a work permit/job offer requirement for migrants, some continued EU budget contributions and a few bilateral agreements in key sectors of the economy which May allow for a future FTA. Remoamers, especially the LDs, will still Remoan we are not part of the single market, hardcore Leavers, especially UKIP, will still cry betrayal but most of the country will accept the deal and Brexit will be done

    Hard to disagree with that.
  • chestnut
    chestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited March 2017
    HYUFD said:

    So Brexit is underway and in 2 years time I think we end up with fudged Brexit, a work permit/job offer requirement for migrants, some continued EU budget contributions and a few bilateral agreements in key sectors of the economy which May allow for a future FTA. Remoamers, especially the LDs, will still Remoan we are not part of the single market, hardcore Leavers, especially UKIP, will still cry betrayal but most of the country will accept the deal and Brexit will be done

    Yes. something like that.

    Trade - Canada plus
    Services - Equivalence
    Divorce - we'll cut a deal on the budget to 2020, probably using overseas aid money so our "£350m" a week is available for budget 2020.
    Protected Rights for Expats/Migrants - all bar criminals and terrorists
    Migration Policy - in line with our global expectations

    The Tories will abolish VAT on fuel bills and tampons in budget 2020 and dish out the share of the £350m to the devolved assemblies and they will have some 'signature ready' Trade deals done - the GCC, Australia, Canada etc. I suspect the US as well.

  • Tissue_Price
    Tissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    edited March 2017
    JosiasJessop said:

    Fat_Steve said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    So, here we are, a day I never expected to happen when the Referendum was called, but we can celebrate the democratic will of the people of the United Kingdom being implemented. A democratic will that could so easily have been subsumed into the grotesque, bloated undemocratic European "Project" that none of us had voted to sign up to.

    Well done, people. And it may prove awkward, and troubling, and worrying, and yes, maybe even a little bit scary. But at least the right to Kick The Buggers Out burns brightly on our little islands, a light that many on the mainland in Europe will come to look upon with envious eyes in the decades to come.

    An issue is that for the less sane leavers "Kick The Buggers Out" is meant literally.

    Instead, I'd prefer to say: "All welcome if you can contribute."
    I think he means governmental buggers rather than immigrant buggers
    Perhaps. But he hasn't kicked 'them' out, has he? Cameron and Osborne have gone, but the rest of the government are pretty much as they are before June last year. And it's not as if the civil service has changed.

    It's an utterly ridiculous way to talk, and quite a dangerous one.
    The rest of the government may have many of the same faces, but they are certainly not "pretty much as they are before June last year". Mark Wallace puts it well:

    Among them were an estimated 2.8 million people who normally do not vote, but recognised the importance of the moment and broke the habits of many years. They had given up faith in voting as a way to change things, but they gave it one more go. Today, many people who had thought themselves powerless will be watching as the most powerful people in the land begin to do as they asked. The power of that moment to convince such people that democracy does work and that their vote does matter should not be underestimated, the opportunity must be taken to keep them engaged, and the responsibility to honour that instruction must not be denied.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/03/a-truly-historic-moment-today-we-start-the-process-of-leaving-the-eu.html
  • Richard_Tyndall
    Richard_Tyndall Posts: 33,463
    JosiasJessop said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    Monksfield said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Gallowgate said:

    I think this day says a lot about us as a democracy. It isn't what the establishment wanted at all, yet here we are. Something to be proud of.

    Charles is as establishment as it gets, and he wanted it. ;)
    Quite, the 'old' establishment is dead keen on it.
    There are rival elites. The elite that dominated politics from about 1990-2015 (Blairite/Cameroon/London -based/internationalist) was beaten, no two ways about it. But, Charles' type of elite is different, more rural, old money, traditionalist Conservative. They'll be very happy with the outcome of the vote.
    A return to managed decline.
    Nope. Managed decline is what Blair and the Cameroons perpetuated. I have far more faith in the future of our country now than I have ever had in the past. And people like Charles who you apparently scorn have far more attachment to, and care for, the country than the career politicians we have had running and ruining things for the couple of decades.
    Sorry to say this, but that's rubbish on so many levels. It's simply a rewording of the stupid idea that people I agree with must be patriots, and those I disagree with traitors.
    Nope those are entirely your words not mine. Blair and Cameron shared a vision of this country and its place in the world that is not mine. Much of that has little to do with the EU issue and far more to do with the apparent pressing need to drop bombs on innocent people. They did a vast amount of damage to both the reputation and the prospects for this country and along with Brown are strong candidates for the worst PMs in history. That does not make them Traitors at all, simply deluded and dangerous individuals who were more interested in the interests of their international friends in high places than the wellbeing of their own people (or the people of many other countries either judging by how many they managed to ruin).
  • glw
    glw Posts: 10,463
    TOPPING said:

    glw said:

    TOPPING said:

    On topic

    Has anyone read Riddle of the Sands? I am a third of the way through it and need some encouragement to push on.

    It doesn't get any better.
    Thank you! It is interesting enough as a period piece but it is also quite tortuous.
    It's considered quite an important book as an early spy novel, a bit like Conrad's The Secret Agent, but it's far too long, and unless you have a deep fascination with the East Frisian Islands it's not entertaining.
  • MarqueeMark
    MarqueeMark Posts: 55,458
    Fat_Steve said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    So, here we are, a day I never expected to happen when the Referendum was called, but we can celebrate the democratic will of the people of the United Kingdom being implemented. A democratic will that could so easily have been subsumed into the grotesque, bloated undemocratic European "Project" that none of us had voted to sign up to.

    Well done, people. And it may prove awkward, and troubling, and worrying, and yes, maybe even a little bit scary. But at least the right to Kick The Buggers Out burns brightly on our little islands, a light that many on the mainland in Europe will come to look upon with envious eyes in the decades to come.

    An issue is that for the less sane leavers "Kick The Buggers Out" is meant literally.

    Instead, I'd prefer to say: "All welcome if you can contribute."
    JosiasJessop said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    So, here we are, a day I never expected to happen when the Referendum was called, but we can celebrate the democratic will of the people of the United Kingdom being implemented. A democratic will that could so easily have been subsumed into the grotesque, bloated undemocratic European "Project" that none of us had voted to sign up to.

    Well done, people. And it may prove awkward, and troubling, and worrying, and yes, maybe even a little bit scary. But at least the right to Kick The Buggers Out burns brightly on our little islands, a light that many on the mainland in Europe will come to look upon with envious eyes in the decades to come.

    An issue is that for the less sane leavers "Kick The Buggers Out" is meant literally.

    Instead, I'd prefer to say: "All welcome if you can contribute."
    I think he means governmental buggers rather than immigrant buggers
    I do mean that, but the ambiguity was intentional. There are doubtless people who want to kick the foreigners out. But at least they had a democratic means to express that, rather than have to resort to more drastic ways to express that sentiment outside the ballot box. So it will be down to politicians to take heed of that sentiment - or, er, the buggers will be kicked out at the next election.
  • JosiasJessop
    JosiasJessop Posts: 46,250
    edited March 2017
    MarqueeMark said:

    A ridiculous way to talk? Dangerous? Hahahaha. Let's just agree to differ on this, shall we?

    By 2020, the UK will have its chance to Kick The Buggers Out. When will be next vote be timetabled when the EU can kick out the Eurocrat buggers? When can democracy derail The Great European Project? You want to talk dangerous? That's dangerous, right there. Robbing the voters of any meaningful engagement in the democratic process.

    You know very well what I mean.
  • GIN1138
    GIN1138 Posts: 22,938
    chestnut said:

    HYUFD said:

    So Brexit is underway and in 2 years time I think we end up with fudged Brexit, a work permit/job offer requirement for migrants, some continued EU budget contributions and a few bilateral agreements in key sectors of the economy which May allow for a future FTA. Remoamers, especially the LDs, will still Remoan we are not part of the single market, hardcore Leavers, especially UKIP, will still cry betrayal but most of the country will accept the deal and Brexit will be done

    Yes. something like that.

    Trade - Canada plus
    Services - Equivalence
    Divorce - we'll cut a deal on the budget to 2020, probably using overseas aid money so our "£350m" a week is available for budget 2020.
    Protected Rights for Expats/Migrants - all bar criminals and terrorists
    Migration Policy - in line with our global expectations

    The Tories will abolish VAT on fuel bills and tampons in budget 2020 and dish out the share of the £350m to the devolved assemblies and they will have some 'signature ready' Trade deals done - the GCC, Australia, Canada etc. I suspect the US as well.

    Budget 2020 sounds pretty exciting! :smiley:
  • Jonathan
    Jonathan Posts: 22,107
    edited March 2017
    After staying on the fence for most of the campaign, I voted remain because Westminster/Whitehall is not fit for purpose.

    And whilst nearly impossible, there was slightly more chance of reforming the EU than an institution that still prints its legislation on dead animals.

    Westminster/Whitehall has failed this country for more than 100 years. The work to get it fit for the C21 is unimaginably complex. Makes Brexit look like a picnic.
  • NickPalmer
    NickPalmer Posts: 21,724
    TOPPING said:

    On topic

    Has anyone read Riddle of the Sands? I am a third of the way through it and need some encouragement to push on.

    Off topic

    Just as we do with a Labour government, we'll manage with Brexit although I fear for those who aren't scions of banking dynasties, well paid authors, or on six figure salaries.

    A long time ago. I thought it wasn't a bad yarn, but quite dated, like some though not all of Buchan's work. Probably better uses for your time (or just read the end to see how it works out).

    Which is possibly the best counsel for Brexit too, but anyone with investments should adopt defensive positions and be prepared to switch quickly as events develop. It will be a rocky ride though I think some sort of fudged settlement will be agreed in the end.
  • Sunil_Prasannan
    Sunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,076
    Good RE-MOANING!

    I brung you a massage:

    The Proom Monister has truggered Broxit. Meek Smithson isn't very hippy!
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