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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Welcome to Article 50 day as the UK steps into the unknown

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  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,969

    Faisal Islam‏ @faisalislam
    Wilbur Ross in June said whether this merger was blocked "a major near term test" of EU approach to U.K. He's now US Commerce Secretary.
    Faisal Islam‏ @faisalislam
    European Commission blocks LOndon Stock Exchange- Deutsche Börse merger on morning of Article 50:

    I may be wrong, but this is the kind of deal that the Commission would have de facto make or break control over after we leave the EU, too. It has little to do with attitudes to the UK and much more to do with a Competition DG that is very wary of dominant positions and has been for years.

    Surely after we leave the EU the Commission and the UK authorities both have equal 'break' control over the issue. Either one could block it. Both need to accept it for it to proceed.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,450

    What a grey and miserable day. It saddens me that, for years to come, British political life will be dominated by grinding trade negotiations, blame apportioning, sterility and paralysis. The tweedy English eccentrics responsible - Farage, Nuttall, Mogg etc. - will be but distant memories by the time all this is resolved, if it ever is to anyone's significant satisfaction. I thought we were finally turning away from the old morbid post-Imperial fetishes: a pompous contempt for everything foreign, petty nationalistic symbolism, White Cliffs of Dover, Tommy helmets, the plucky Brit underdog... But we're evidently trapped in the past for the foreseeable future. Dreary times.

    A revealing post.

    It reveals that much of what remains of europhilia - particularly in England - is driven by an embarrassment of our colonial past.
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Alistair said:

    chestnut said:

    Alistair said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    She really does appear to be barking up the wrong tree. I can't imagine another bona-fide full blown independence referendum this side of 2021.

    The other way of looking at it is that the people elect the SNP and expect them to get on with the business of delivering independence. They have a mandate to negotiate a frictionless transition with the European Commission and UK government.
    The next round of Scottish elections, both to Westminster and Holyrood, will now be fought on the understanding that the SNP will not honour their 'once in a generation' promises.
    It was literally right there in the SNP Holyrood manifesto. Brexit == IndyRef2.

    This is just flat out denial to claim otherwise or to pretend the public were fooled.

    Sturgeon also said about sufficient public demand
    . That does not exist.

    She's trying to have it all ways and needs to be reminded that her fellow Britons need to be respected, after all the good people Scotland voted to remain as Britons in 2014 and voted as Britons, not Scots, last June.

    Yes, or is rather an important word.

    Sufficent public demand or Brexit. not Sufficient public demand and Brexit.
    Well, perhaps May should two tier the whole thing?

    A binding referendum in late 2019 to see if the Scottish government should be obliged or barred from running a referendum in the post 2021 administration, irrespective of who is elected.

    The game playing around words and meanings needs to brought to an end and there needs to be a very clear distinction between the role of Holyrood as a devolved administration and independence.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    Cyan said:

    When was the last time that a foreign election was as important to Britain as the coming French one? Was there ever a time?

    On the surface, the British government is backing a candidate who openly espouses strengthening the relationship between France and Germany to provide core leadership in the EU. Meanwhile, other candidates want France to chum up with Britain in reforming Europe.

    What Britain needs to do is invoke Article 13 of the NATO treaty, ensuring NATOexit a year later. That's an elephant in the dining room. Russia is a player throughout the whole of Europe now, and there's nothing that can be done about it.

    But instead, the country has no functioning leadership, no functioning opposition, and is going round with a begging bowl to New Zealand and the dictators of the Gulf. Perhaps they can all have a big party in the Shard before a big fly off, Iceland-style?

    Why do we need to leave NATO?
  • Options
    calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    Pagan said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    She really does appear to be barking up the wrong tree. I can't imagine another bona-fide full blown independence referendum this side of 2021.

    The other way of looking at it is that the people elect the SNP and expect them to get on with the business of delivering independence. They have a mandate to negotiate a frictionless transition with the European Commission and UK government.
    The next round of Scottish elections, both to Westminster and Holyrood, will now be fought on the understanding that the SNP will not honour their 'once in a generation' promises.
    It was literally right there in the SNP Holyrood manifesto. Brexit == IndyRef2.

    This is just flat out denial to claim otherwise or to pretend the public were fooled.
    Yeah, the manifesto clearly broke that once in a generation promise.
    https://youtu.be/6HyUmDuPa6g
    Every time there is an indy referendum we should make it two referendums one for the people of scotland on whether they want to be independent, the other for everyone else in the uk to see if we still want them. If the rest of the uk votes no they are out, if scotland votes yes it is out.

    Ok slightly tongue in cheek and as it happens I support Scottish independence however I do not support a sword of Damocles hanging over our head in the form of threatened referendums every time the snp get miffed over something. The constant uncertainty damages not only Scotland but the rest of the UK.
    rUK is perfectly capable of harming itself!
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    edited March 2017

    Faisal Islam‏ @faisalislam
    Wilbur Ross in June said whether this merger was blocked "a major near term test" of EU approach to U.K. He's now US Commerce Secretary.
    Faisal Islam‏ @faisalislam
    European Commission blocks LOndon Stock Exchange- Deutsche Börse merger on morning of Article 50:

    I may be wrong, but this is the kind of deal that the Commission would have de facto make or break control over after we leave the EU, too. It has little to do with attitudes to the UK and much more to do with a Competition DG that is very wary of dominant positions and has been for years.

    Surely after we leave the EU the Commission and the UK authorities both have equal 'break' control over the issue. Either one could block it. Both need to accept it for it to proceed.

    Yep. I just took that as a given. But you're right to make the point.

  • Options
    CyanCyan Posts: 1,262
    edited March 2017

    What a grey and miserable day. It saddens me that, for years to come, British political life will be dominated by grinding trade negotiations, blame apportioning, sterility and paralysis. The tweedy English eccentrics responsible - Farage, Nuttall, Mogg etc. - will be but distant memories by the time all this is resolved, if it ever is to anyone's significant satisfaction. I thought we were finally turning away from the old morbid post-Imperial fetishes: a pompous contempt for everything foreign, petty nationalistic symbolism, White Cliffs of Dover, Tommy helmets, the plucky Brit underdog... But we're evidently trapped in the past for the foreseeable future. Dreary times.

    Worse than dreary. The Anti-Metrication Board lives again!

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    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    Cyan said:

    When was the last time that a foreign election was as important to Britain as the coming French one? Was there ever a time?

    On the surface, the British government is backing a candidate who openly espouses strengthening the relationship between France and Germany to provide core leadership in the EU. Meanwhile, other candidates want France to chum up with Britain in reforming Europe.

    What Britain needs to do is invoke Article 13 of the NATO treaty, ensuring NATOexit a year later. That's an elephant in the dining room. Russia is a player throughout the whole of Europe now, and there's nothing that can be done about it.

    But instead, the country has no functioning leadership, no functioning opposition, and the government is going round with a begging bowl to New Zealand and the dictators of the Gulf. Perhaps they can all have a wild party in the Shard before a big fly off, Iceland-style?

    Which candidate is the British Government backing?
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,450
    daodao said:

    Der Spiegel on May's 5 front battle with:

    - Brussels
    - Scotland
    - Northern Ireland
    - The UK economy
    - The UK opposition

    http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/brexit-grossbritannien-beginnt-verhandlungen-mit-eu-a-1140806.html

    another German journalist who has never left London
    This Der Spiegel article talks sense. IMO, the biggest problem in terms of difficulty is the 1922 artificial line across Ulster. The obvious solution is Irish reunification, but there are a lot of obstinate people in the 6 counties who would oppose this sensible solution.
    Other solutions could involve a united Ireland reabsorbed into the UK, with heavily devolved powers; a repartition of Northern Ireland, with the unionist part staying in the UK; Northern Ireland being included in the customs union, but not the UK mainland; an arrangement where EIRE does customs checks on behalf of the island of Ireland, including the NI as part of the UK, or spot customs checks at the main roads, ports and airports of NI.

    These are problems but not insurmountable problems.
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    Cyan said:

    When was the last time that a foreign election was as important to Britain as the coming French one? Was there ever a time?

    1940 US Presidential election, we needed that lying duplicitous bastard FDR to win.

    The UK and the world would have been very different if FDR had lost.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,942
    Cyan said:

    What Britain needs to do is invoke Article 13 of the NATO treaty, ensuring NATOexit a year later.

    Are you joking ?!

    Even as someone who isn't particularly keen on our Nuclear deterrent exiting NATO at the moment would be burning ALL our bridges with our partners. It would be the height of diplomatic lunacy.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937

    What a grey and miserable day. It saddens me that, for years to come, British political life will be dominated by grinding trade negotiations, blame apportioning, sterility and paralysis. The tweedy English eccentrics responsible - Farage, Nuttall, Mogg etc. - will be but distant memories by the time all this is resolved, if it ever is to anyone's significant satisfaction. I thought we were finally turning away from the old morbid post-Imperial fetishes: a pompous contempt for everything foreign, petty nationalistic symbolism, White Cliffs of Dover, Tommy helmets, the plucky Brit underdog... But we're evidently trapped in the past for the foreseeable future. Dreary times.

    A revealing post.

    It reveals that much of what remains of europhilia - particularly in England - is driven by an embarrassment of our colonial past.

    How did you get to that?

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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    I was wrong when I posted last night that the text of the Article 50 letter would be released outside market hours. Instead it will be released soon after delivery. My guess is that sterling will rise when it's released, as traders look at what will undoubtedly be warm words about the UK wanting a good deal for both sides. Then, as the responses start trickling in, it will look less rosy.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,942

    I was wrong when I posted last night that the text of the Article 50 letter would be released outside market hours. Instead it will be released soon after delivery. My guess is that sterling will rise when it's released, as traders look at what will undoubtedly be warm words about the UK wanting a good deal for both sides. Then, as the responses start trickling in, it will look less rosy.

    It'll be full of the utmost good mannered fluff.
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    CyanCyan Posts: 1,262
    edited March 2017
    Agoravox: "It's not impossible that Dupont-Aignan will get to the second round". An interesting article: the author tries to consider polls in their place.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,216
    Alistair said:

    chestnut said:

    Alistair said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    She really does appear to be barking up the wrong tree. I can't imagine another bona-fide full blown independence referendum this side of 2021.

    The other way of looking at it is that the people elect the SNP and expect them to get on with the business of delivering independence. They have a mandate to negotiate a frictionless transition with the European Commission and UK government.
    The next round of Scottish elections, both to Westminster and Holyrood, will now be fought on the understanding that the SNP will not honour their 'once in a generation' promises.
    It was literally right there in the SNP Holyrood manifesto. Brexit == IndyRef2.

    This is just flat out denial to claim otherwise or to pretend the public were fooled.

    Sturgeon also said about sufficient public demand
    . That does not exist.

    She's trying to have it all ways and needs to be reminded that her fellow Britons need to be respected, after all the good people Scotland voted to remain as Britons in 2014 and voted as Britons, not Scots, last June.

    Yes, or is rather an important word.

    Sufficent public demand or Brexit. not Sufficient public demand and Brexit.
    It's confusing but once you get your head round the following it all makes sense.

    Tory manifest commitment on not rasing NI = who cares
    SNP manifesto commitment on Indy ref II if support in polls = CAST IRON
    SNP manifesto commitment on Indy ref II if material change of circs such as leaving EU = who cares
    Green wafty manifesto line that 'preferred way' of triggering a referendum is by an 'appropriate number' of people signing a petition = CAST IRON COMMITMENT THAT MEANS GREENS SHOULD ABSTAIN OR EVEN VOTE AGAINST THIS TERRIBLE, DIVISIVE BILL
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    Is it just me, or is the main site down?
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    What a grey and miserable day. It saddens me that, for years to come, British political life will be dominated by grinding trade negotiations, blame apportioning, sterility and paralysis. The tweedy English eccentrics responsible - Farage, Nuttall, Mogg etc. - will be but distant memories by the time all this is resolved, if it ever is to anyone's significant satisfaction. I thought we were finally turning away from the old morbid post-Imperial fetishes: a pompous contempt for everything foreign, petty nationalistic symbolism, White Cliffs of Dover, Tommy helmets, the plucky Brit underdog... But we're evidently trapped in the past for the foreseeable future. Dreary times.

    Your views about being stuck in the past, seem to be stuck in the past. Forty Years On opened in October 1968. Nobody thinks like that any more, you just think they do.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,450

    Countdown to "but you haven't invoked Article 50 yet" being replaced with "but you haven't left yet" as to why Britain isn't facing an immediate post-referendum recession in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 ...

    I think the customs union and free trade in goods are the most important for our trade with the EU.

    Despite the noise, the single market in services within the EU has never been completed (or close to being completed, partly because its so heavily in the UK interest for it to be so)

    The main impact is in financial services passporting, which could be addressed by equivalence. In any event, even if we had Remained within the EU it would have been full of uncertainty as well, with the risk of the single market in financial services becoming increasingly dominated and regulated by Eurozone interests at the expense of us taking opportunities in vibrant global markets.

    For insurance, legal services and professional services the impact will be minimal.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,370
    Pulpstar said:

    Cyan said:

    What Britain needs to do is invoke Article 13 of the NATO treaty, ensuring NATOexit a year later.

    Are you joking ?!

    Even as someone who isn't particularly keen on our Nuclear deterrent exiting NATO at the moment would be burning ALL our bridges with our partners. It would be the height of diplomatic lunacy.
    in for a penny...
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    RobD said:

    Is it just me, or is the main site down?

    Down for me too.
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    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    RobD said:

    Is it just me, or is the main site down?

    Down for me too.
    Seems to be working for me.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    RobD said:

    Is it just me, or is the main site down?

    Down for me too.
    Back up now. The hamsters must have wanted a break.
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    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Is it just me, or is the main site down?

    Down for me too.
    Back up now. The hamsters must have wanted a break.
    Think it is a registry issue.

    The PB server hamsters are not to blame.
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    TOPPING said:

    Has anyone read Riddle of the Sands? I am a third of the way through it and need some encouragement to push on.

    If the sailing detail is the problem, then that is persistant through the book. The plot kicks up a notch in the final third. It makes for a nice slow read.

    The film is a good condensed version which speeds up the plot with some minor changes but doesn't omit any of the major plot points.

    It is worth pointing out most of the sailing & location detail was pretty accurate to reality. If you are interested in the background then "The Riddle" by Maldwin Drummond goes into that & Childers life.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,277

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Is it just me, or is the main site down?

    Down for me too.
    Back up now. The hamsters must have wanted a break.
    Think it is a registry issue.

    The PB server hamsters are not to blame.
    Are the hamsters EU migrants?
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    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Is it just me, or is the main site down?

    Down for me too.
    Back up now. The hamsters must have wanted a break.
    Think it is a registry issue.

    The PB server hamsters are not to blame.
    Are the hamsters EU migrants?
    Yes, and Muslims too.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Paddy can barely conceal his grief on the DP.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937

    Countdown to "but you haven't invoked Article 50 yet" being replaced with "but you haven't left yet" as to why Britain isn't facing an immediate post-referendum recession in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 ...

    I think the customs union and free trade in goods are the most important for our trade with the EU.

    Despite the noise, the single market in services within the EU has never been completed (or close to being completed, partly because its so heavily in the UK interest for it to be so)

    The main impact is in financial services passporting, which could be addressed by equivalence. In any event, even if we had Remained within the EU it would have been full of uncertainty as well, with the risk of the single market in financial services becoming increasingly dominated and regulated by Eurozone interests at the expense of us taking opportunities in vibrant global markets.

    For insurance, legal services and professional services the impact will be minimal.

    I am not sure about the others, but there are definitely big issues for legal services with Brexit:

    http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/news/press-releases/no-deal-post-brexit-could-be-devastating-for-uks-valuable-legal-sector/



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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,012
    RobD said:

    Cyan said:

    When was the last time that a foreign election was as important to Britain as the coming French one? Was there ever a time?

    On the surface, the British government is backing a candidate who openly espouses strengthening the relationship between France and Germany to provide core leadership in the EU. Meanwhile, other candidates want France to chum up with Britain in reforming Europe.

    What Britain needs to do is invoke Article 13 of the NATO treaty, ensuring NATOexit a year later. That's an elephant in the dining room. Russia is a player throughout the whole of Europe now, and there's nothing that can be done about it.

    But instead, the country has no functioning leadership, no functioning opposition, and is going round with a begging bowl to New Zealand and the dictators of the Gulf. Perhaps they can all have a big party in the Shard before a big fly off, Iceland-style?

    Why do we need to leave NATO?
    SOVEREIGNTY. Haven't you been paying fucking attention?
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Ishmael_Z said:

    What a grey and miserable day. It saddens me that, for years to come, British political life will be dominated by grinding trade negotiations, blame apportioning, sterility and paralysis. The tweedy English eccentrics responsible - Farage, Nuttall, Mogg etc. - will be but distant memories by the time all this is resolved, if it ever is to anyone's significant satisfaction. I thought we were finally turning away from the old morbid post-Imperial fetishes: a pompous contempt for everything foreign, petty nationalistic symbolism, White Cliffs of Dover, Tommy helmets, the plucky Brit underdog... But we're evidently trapped in the past for the foreseeable future. Dreary times.

    Your views about being stuck in the past, seem to be stuck in the past. Forty Years On opened in October 1968. Nobody thinks like that any more, you just think they do.

    Have you see the front cover of the country's best selling newspaper today?

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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    Dura_Ace said:

    RobD said:

    Cyan said:

    When was the last time that a foreign election was as important to Britain as the coming French one? Was there ever a time?

    On the surface, the British government is backing a candidate who openly espouses strengthening the relationship between France and Germany to provide core leadership in the EU. Meanwhile, other candidates want France to chum up with Britain in reforming Europe.

    What Britain needs to do is invoke Article 13 of the NATO treaty, ensuring NATOexit a year later. That's an elephant in the dining room. Russia is a player throughout the whole of Europe now, and there's nothing that can be done about it.

    But instead, the country has no functioning leadership, no functioning opposition, and is going round with a begging bowl to New Zealand and the dictators of the Gulf. Perhaps they can all have a big party in the Shard before a big fly off, Iceland-style?

    Why do we need to leave NATO?
    SOVEREIGNTY. Haven't you been paying fucking attention?
    Alright, don't bite my head off.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,370

    TOPPING said:

    Has anyone read Riddle of the Sands? I am a third of the way through it and need some encouragement to push on.

    If the sailing detail is the problem, then that is persistant through the book. The plot kicks up a notch in the final third. It makes for a nice slow read.

    The film is a good condensed version which speeds up the plot with some minor changes but doesn't omit any of the major plot points.

    It is worth pointing out most of the sailing & location detail was pretty accurate to reality. If you are interested in the background then "The Riddle" by Maldwin Drummond goes into that & Childers life.
    Thanks. And @Richard_Nabavi also. I'll push on. The sailing I don't get (have been half a dozen times only in my life) but I do like the tone and historicity. Plus I only just twigged (thanks @Richard_Tyndall) that that was the Childers of the Irish civil war.

    Plus I don't like giving up/walking out of anything. I even stayed for the second half of Copenhagen in a by then half-empty theatre.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,362

    Cyan said:

    When was the last time that a foreign election was as important to Britain as the coming French one? Was there ever a time?

    1940 US Presidential election, we needed that lying duplicitous bastard FDR to win.

    The UK and the world would have been very different if FDR had lost.
    Why this hatred for FDR??
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Paddy deeply in denial.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    chestnut said:

    Paddy deeply in denial.

    "Most extreme form of Brexit possible"... lol
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,362

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Is it just me, or is the main site down?

    Down for me too.
    Back up now. The hamsters must have wanted a break.
    Think it is a registry issue.

    The PB server hamsters are not to blame.
    Are the hamsters EU migrants?
    Yes, and Muslims too.
    Abu Hamzter?
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    Starting to wonder with all the predictions of doom, whether the Mayan calendar was out by 5 years...
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,012

    What a grey and miserable day. It saddens me that, for years to come, British political life will be dominated by grinding trade negotiations, blame apportioning, sterility and paralysis. The tweedy English eccentrics responsible - Farage, Nuttall, Mogg etc. - will be but distant memories by the time all this is resolved, if it ever is to anyone's significant satisfaction. I thought we were finally turning away from the old morbid post-Imperial fetishes: a pompous contempt for everything foreign, petty nationalistic symbolism, White Cliffs of Dover, Tommy helmets, the plucky Brit underdog... But we're evidently trapped in the past for the foreseeable future. Dreary times.

    Of all the flavours of nationalist exceptionalism on offer the British variant is uniquely repellent for its unmatched combination of banality and arrogance.
  • Options

    Cyan said:

    When was the last time that a foreign election was as important to Britain as the coming French one? Was there ever a time?

    1940 US Presidential election, we needed that lying duplicitous bastard FDR to win.

    The UK and the world would have been very different if FDR had lost.
    Why this hatred for FDR??
    FDR is one of my all time favourite Presidents.

    He just had to be lying and duplicitous bastard to help win the war whilst being officially being neutral.

    When they officially entered the war he sold the policy of Germany First which again was brilliant.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    One wonders whether LSE will now look at the on again off again NASDAQ merger. I think it would be a better fit than DB anyway. Our interests lie outside or Europe for the time being. I think as a nation we just need to let Europe get on with whatever they are getting on with while we refocus our trade and diplomacy towards the US and Asia. Brexit was a huge topic in India, there are big expectations that India and the UK will be able to come to a trade agreement which will allow for more investment in the Indian economy by UK companies and vice versa. There is also a lot of hope that the UK will agree equivalency for degrees and professional qualifications given out by elite universities in India so that Indian graduates are ready for UK employment.

    I also know that in SE and East Asia there is a certain degree of interest in Brexit and my old contacts at Sony are all saying that the Japanese government are looking to make a UK-Japan comprehensive trade deal top of their agenda if the EU one isn't completed in time for it to carry over like CETA is expected to.

    As we move away from the referendum sponsored doom mongering it is clearer that any opportunity losses we may (and may is the key word here) experience from leaving the EU should be replaced 2x by new opportunities in the rest of the world. Trading with 15% of the global economy to the exclusion of 85% never made sense. Hopefully the DIT are up to the task, but AIUI their recruitment and promotion criteria is much tougher than other departments which has led to a general labour shortage.

    If anyone is looking to work in international trade apply now.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited March 2017
    RobD said:

    chestnut said:

    Paddy deeply in denial.

    "Most extreme form of Brexit possible"... lol
    "Brutal brexit".

    He's bonkers.

    The hat he had to eat in 2015 must have been toxic.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    edited March 2017
    chestnut said:

    RobD said:

    chestnut said:

    Paddy deeply in denial.

    "Most extreme form of Brexit possible"... lol
    "Brutal brexit".

    He's bonkers.

    The hat he had to eat in 2015 must have been toxic.
    Deluded more like. Banging on about the Euro now.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,856
    edited March 2017
    Dura_Ace said:

    What a grey and miserable day. It saddens me that, for years to come, British political life will be dominated by grinding trade negotiations, blame apportioning, sterility and paralysis. The tweedy English eccentrics responsible - Farage, Nuttall, Mogg etc. - will be but distant memories by the time all this is resolved, if it ever is to anyone's significant satisfaction. I thought we were finally turning away from the old morbid post-Imperial fetishes: a pompous contempt for everything foreign, petty nationalistic symbolism, White Cliffs of Dover, Tommy helmets, the plucky Brit underdog... But we're evidently trapped in the past for the foreseeable future. Dreary times.

    Of all the flavours of nationalist exceptionalism on offer the British variant is uniquely repellent for its unmatched combination of banality and arrogance.
    Yet, this is one of the more liberal and tolerant of European countries. Disdain for British nationalism is based on snobbery.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,994
    Mr. Ace, have you considered taking up morris dancing?

    It might revise your opinion of the wonderfulness of Britain.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,370
    MaxPB said:

    One wonders whether LSE will now look at the on again off again NASDAQ merger. I think it would be a better fit than DB anyway. Our interests lie outside or Europe for the time being. I think as a nation we just need to let Europe get on with whatever they are getting on with while we refocus our trade and diplomacy towards the US and Asia. Brexit was a huge topic in India, there are big expectations that India and the UK will be able to come to a trade agreement which will allow for more investment in the Indian economy by UK companies and vice versa. There is also a lot of hope that the UK will agree equivalency for degrees and professional qualifications given out by elite universities in India so that Indian graduates are ready for UK employment.

    I also know that in SE and East Asia there is a certain degree of interest in Brexit and my old contacts at Sony are all saying that the Japanese government are looking to make a UK-Japan comprehensive trade deal top of their agenda if the EU one isn't completed in time for it to carry over like CETA is expected to.

    As we move away from the referendum sponsored doom mongering it is clearer that any opportunity losses we may (and may is the key word here) experience from leaving the EU should be replaced 2x by new opportunities in the rest of the world. Trading with 15% of the global economy to the exclusion of 85% never made sense. Hopefully the DIT are up to the task, but AIUI their recruitment and promotion criteria is much tougher than other departments which has led to a general labour shortage.

    If anyone is looking to work in international trade apply now.

    If that is your understanding of international trade may I please ask on behalf of the country that you don't apply.
  • Options
    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    chestnut said:

    Paddy can barely conceal his grief on the DP.

    When it comes to boxers or briefs it's 'Paddy pants down'.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,216
    edited March 2017
    calum said:
    It conjures the delicious vision of the EU defending the interests of Scotland, NI & Gib in negotiations, while Tessy's precious union sockpuppets angrily demand that aforementioned interests should be of no account.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,942

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Is it just me, or is the main site down?

    Down for me too.
    Back up now. The hamsters must have wanted a break.
    Think it is a registry issue.

    The PB server hamsters are not to blame.
    Are the hamsters EU migrants?
    Yes, and Muslims too.
    Abu Hamzter?
    Abu Bakr Hamster vs Ali Guinea Pig civil war.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    edited March 2017
    As ever in south-east Spain 'el Tiempo' provides the perfect antidote to Brexit gloom for us Brimmigrants here - clear blue skies and 25 degrees - bliss! PS what has happened to Scotty of cutnpaste fame - did he finally fall victim to too much of that glue? :)
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    felix said:

    As ever in south-east Spain 'el Tiempo' provides the perfect antidote to Brexit gloom for us Brimmigrants here - clear blue skies and 25 degrees - bliss! PS what has happened to Scotty of cutnpaste fame - did he finally fall victim to too much of that glue? :)

    Blimey, not been on for two weeks now. Hope he's alright.
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Ishmael_Z said:

    What a grey and miserable day. It saddens me that, for years to come, British political life will be dominated by grinding trade negotiations, blame apportioning, sterility and paralysis. The tweedy English eccentrics responsible - Farage, Nuttall, Mogg etc. - will be but distant memories by the time all this is resolved, if it ever is to anyone's significant satisfaction. I thought we were finally turning away from the old morbid post-Imperial fetishes: a pompous contempt for everything foreign, petty nationalistic symbolism, White Cliffs of Dover, Tommy helmets, the plucky Brit underdog... But we're evidently trapped in the past for the foreseeable future. Dreary times.

    Your views about being stuck in the past, seem to be stuck in the past. Forty Years On opened in October 1968. Nobody thinks like that any more, you just think they do.

    Have you see the front cover of the country's best selling newspaper today?

    I hadn't, so thank you - that is extremely funny. It is also completely lacking in any neo-imperialistic colonial subtext, and rather subtly reinforces my point, seeing as how it's about projecting your own ideas onto things.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,942

    calum said:
    It conjures the delicious vision of the EU defending the interests of Scotland, NI & Gib in negotiations, while Tessy's precious union sockpuppets angrily demand that aforementioned interests should be of no account.
    Scotland/SNP has tremendous goodwill with the EU at the moment, I feel alot of others underestimate the value of this.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,216
    Who said Jerry doesn't have a sense of humour?

    https://twitter.com/ZoeParamour/status/847025627089784832
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,362

    Mr. Ace, have you considered taking up morris dancing?

    It might revise your opinion of the wonderfulness of Britain.

    Mr Dancer, there's always trainspotting too!
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,994
    edited March 2017
    Mr. D, likewise.

    People do come and go, so hopefully it's just a sabbatical.

    Edited extra bit: Mr. Divvie, Nick Heidfeld.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auvmljhAWok
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    TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,713
    edited March 2017

    Cyan said:

    When was the last time that a foreign election was as important to Britain as the coming French one? Was there ever a time?

    As a big fan of alternate history, I can convincingly say that Wendell Willkie would've been just as internationalist as FDR.

    Edit - buggered up the block quotes..... oh well.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    One wonders whether LSE will now look at the on again off again NASDAQ merger. I think it would be a better fit than DB anyway. Our interests lie outside or Europe for the time being. I think as a nation we just need to let Europe get on with whatever they are getting on with while we refocus our trade and diplomacy towards the US and Asia. Brexit was a huge topic in India, there are big expectations that India and the UK will be able to come to a trade agreement which will allow for more investment in the Indian economy by UK companies and vice versa. There is also a lot of hope that the UK will agree equivalency for degrees and professional qualifications given out by elite universities in India so that Indian graduates are ready for UK employment.

    I also know that in SE and East Asia there is a certain degree of interest in Brexit and my old contacts at Sony are all saying that the Japanese government are looking to make a UK-Japan comprehensive trade deal top of their agenda if the EU one isn't completed in time for it to carry over like CETA is expected to.

    As we move away from the referendum sponsored doom mongering it is clearer that any opportunity losses we may (and may is the key word here) experience from leaving the EU should be replaced 2x by new opportunities in the rest of the world. Trading with 15% of the global economy to the exclusion of 85% never made sense. Hopefully the DIT are up to the task, but AIUI their recruitment and promotion criteria is much tougher than other departments which has led to a general labour shortage.

    If anyone is looking to work in international trade apply now.

    If that is your understanding of international trade may I please ask on behalf of the country that you don't apply.
    What specifically do you have an issue with. I'm time limited as I'm about to board a flight to Hong Kong so if i don't reply it means there's no WiFi on the plane.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,450

    What a grey and miserable day. It saddens me that, for years to come, British political life will be dominated by grinding trade negotiations, blame apportioning, sterility and paralysis. The tweedy English eccentrics responsible - Farage, Nuttall, Mogg etc. - will be but distant memories by the time all this is resolved, if it ever is to anyone's significant satisfaction. I thought we were finally turning away from the old morbid post-Imperial fetishes: a pompous contempt for everything foreign, petty nationalistic symbolism, White Cliffs of Dover, Tommy helmets, the plucky Brit underdog... But we're evidently trapped in the past for the foreseeable future. Dreary times.

    A revealing post.

    It reveals that much of what remains of europhilia - particularly in England - is driven by an embarrassment of our colonial past.

    How did you get to that?

    " old morbid post-Imperial fetishes: a pompous contempt for everything foreign, petty nationalistic symbolism, White Cliffs of Dover, Tommy helmets, the plucky Brit underdog... But we're evidently trapped in the past for the foreseeable future"

    This was a big clue.

    The words.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    MaxPB said:

    One wonders whether LSE will now look at the on again off again NASDAQ merger. I think it would be a better fit than DB anyway. Our interests lie outside or Europe for the time being. I think as a nation we just need to let Europe get on with whatever they are getting on with while we refocus our trade and diplomacy towards the US and Asia. Brexit was a huge topic in India, there are big expectations that India and the UK will be able to come to a trade agreement which will allow for more investment in the Indian economy by UK companies and vice versa. There is also a lot of hope that the UK will agree equivalency for degrees and professional qualifications given out by elite universities in India so that Indian graduates are ready for UK employment.

    I also know that in SE and East Asia there is a certain degree of interest in Brexit and my old contacts at Sony are all saying that the Japanese government are looking to make a UK-Japan comprehensive trade deal top of their agenda if the EU one isn't completed in time for it to carry over like CETA is expected to.

    As we move away from the referendum sponsored doom mongering it is clearer that any opportunity losses we may (and may is the key word here) experience from leaving the EU should be replaced 2x by new opportunities in the rest of the world. Trading with 15% of the global economy to the exclusion of 85% never made sense. Hopefully the DIT are up to the task, but AIUI their recruitment and promotion criteria is much tougher than other departments which has led to a general labour shortage.

    If anyone is looking to work in international trade apply now.

    We did not trade with 15% of the global economy to the exclusion of 85% of it. We are a British company and do around 65% of our trade outside Europe. Here in Hong Kong I can buy British-produced goods and services from all kinds of companies and firms. I can do the same in the US, China, Australia and countless other places. If we do not export as much as other European countries to the world, that is not the EU's fault, it is ours. Brexit will not change that.

    As for India, if we liberalise our immigration regime for Indian nationals and the Indians are willing to be less protectionist (two bigs ifs, I'd suggest), we may well get a trade deal done.

  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,362

    Who said Jerry doesn't have a sense of humour?

    https://twitter.com/ZoeParamour/status/847025627089784832

    Pro-German sympathies noted :lol:
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Dura_Ace said:

    What a grey and miserable day. It saddens me that, for years to come, British political life will be dominated by grinding trade negotiations, blame apportioning, sterility and paralysis. The tweedy English eccentrics responsible - Farage, Nuttall, Mogg etc. - will be but distant memories by the time all this is resolved, if it ever is to anyone's significant satisfaction. I thought we were finally turning away from the old morbid post-Imperial fetishes: a pompous contempt for everything foreign, petty nationalistic symbolism, White Cliffs of Dover, Tommy helmets, the plucky Brit underdog... But we're evidently trapped in the past for the foreseeable future. Dreary times.

    Of all the flavours of nationalist exceptionalism on offer the British variant is uniquely repellent for its unmatched combination of banality and arrogance.
    Don't underestimate our fighting spirit, though - that's the mistake the Boche made in '39.

    The claim that British exceptionalism is unique is probably the most brilliantly self-stultifying theory put forward since logical positivism was debunked. Think it through slowly and carefully.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,370
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    One wonders whether LSE will now look at the on again off again NASDAQ merger. I think it would be a better fit than DB anyway. Our interests lie outside or Europe for the time being. I think as a nation we just need to let Europe get on with whatever they are getting on with while we refocus our trade and diplomacy towards the US and Asia. Brexit was a huge topic in India, there are big expectations that India and the UK will be able to come to a trade agreement which will allow for more investment in the Indian economy by UK companies and vice versa. There is also a lot of hope that the UK will agree equivalency for degrees and professional qualifications given out by elite universities in India so that Indian graduates are ready for UK employment.

    I also know that in SE and East Asia there is a certain degree of interest in Brexit and my old contacts at Sony are all saying that the Japanese government are looking to make a UK-Japan comprehensive trade deal top of their agenda if the EU one isn't completed in time for it to carry over like CETA is expected to.

    As we move away from the referendum sponsored doom mongering it is clearer that any opportunity losses we may (and may is the key word here) experience from leaving the EU should be replaced 2x by new opportunities in the rest of the world. Trading with 15% of the global economy to the exclusion of 85% never made sense. Hopefully the DIT are up to the task, but AIUI their recruitment and promotion criteria is much tougher than other departments which has led to a general labour shortage.

    If anyone is looking to work in international trade apply now.

    If that is your understanding of international trade may I please ask on behalf of the country that you don't apply.
    What specifically do you have an issue with. I'm time limited as I'm about to board a flight to Hong Kong so if i don't reply it means there's no WiFi on the plane.
    I don't think membership of the EU is holding back any UK company from seeking non-EU oportunities while there remains just under half our trade with the EU at the moment.

    Anyway, onto more important matters. On the plane watch Grimsby and Keeping up with the Joneses (the first better than the second, both "dreadful", but plenty of laughs). Plus enjoy the Captain's Bar.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,969
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Has anyone read Riddle of the Sands? I am a third of the way through it and need some encouragement to push on.

    If the sailing detail is the problem, then that is persistant through the book. The plot kicks up a notch in the final third. It makes for a nice slow read.

    The film is a good condensed version which speeds up the plot with some minor changes but doesn't omit any of the major plot points.

    It is worth pointing out most of the sailing & location detail was pretty accurate to reality. If you are interested in the background then "The Riddle" by Maldwin Drummond goes into that & Childers life.
    Thanks. And @Richard_Nabavi also. I'll push on. The sailing I don't get (have been half a dozen times only in my life) but I do like the tone and historicity. Plus I only just twigged (thanks @Richard_Tyndall) that that was the Childers of the Irish civil war.

    Plus I don't like giving up/walking out of anything. I even stayed for the second half of Copenhagen in a by then half-empty theatre.
    It was reading about his treatment by Churchill - along with Churchill's whole duplicitous behaviour over the Independence Treaty - that made me realise that even my heroes had feet of clay. Or something rather less benign in Churchill's case.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,362

    chestnut said:

    Paddy can barely conceal his grief on the DP.

    When it comes to boxers or briefs it's 'Paddy pants down'.
    Muddy Splashdown
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    edited March 2017

    MaxPB said:

    One wonders whether LSE will now look at the on again off again NASDAQ merger. I think it would be a better fit than DB anyway. Our interests lie outside or Europe for the time being. I think as a nation we just need to let Europe get on with whatever they are getting on with while we refocus our trade and diplomacy towards the US and Asia. Brexit was a huge topic in India, there are big expectations that India and the UK will be able to come to a trade agreement which will allow for more investment in the Indian economy by UK companies and vice versa. There is also a lot of hope that the UK will agree equivalency for degrees and professional qualifications given out by elite universities in India so that Indian graduates are ready for UK employment.

    I also know that in SE and East Asia there is a certain degree of interest in Brexit and my old contacts at Sony are all saying that the Japanese government are looking to make a UK-Japan comprehensive trade deal top of their agenda if the EU one isn't completed in time for it to carry over like CETA is expected to.

    As we move away from the referendum sponsored doom mongering it is clearer that any opportunity losses we may (and may is the key word here) experience from leaving the EU should be replaced 2x by new opportunities in the rest of the world. Trading with 15% of the global economy to the exclusion of 85% never made sense. Hopefully the DIT are up to the task, but AIUI their recruitment and promotion criteria is much tougher than other departments which has led to a general labour shortage.

    If anyone is looking to work in international trade apply now.

    We did not trade with 15% of the global economy to the exclusion of 85% of it. We are a British company and do around 65% of our trade outside Europe. Here in Hong Kong I can buy British-produced goods and services from all kinds of companies and firms. I can do the same in the US, China, Australia and countless other places. If we do not export as much as other European countries to the world, that is not the EU's fault, it is ours. Brexit will not change that.

    As for India, if we liberalise our immigration regime for Indian nationals and the Indians are willing to be less protectionist (two bigs ifs, I'd suggest), we may well get a trade deal done.

    Joff, how long are you in HK for? My gf and I will be there for a few days. I'm busy tomorrow and the day after catching up with friends but should be free on Saturday if you're up for a possible drink!
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,362

    Cyan said:

    When was the last time that a foreign election was as important to Britain as the coming French one? Was there ever a time?

    1940 US Presidential election, we needed that lying duplicitous bastard FDR to win.

    The UK and the world would have been very different if FDR had lost.
    Why this hatred for FDR??
    FDR is one of my all time favourite Presidents.

    He just had to be lying and duplicitous bastard to help win the war whilst being officially being neutral.

    When they officially entered the war he sold the policy of Germany First which again was brilliant.
    Ah, I see now.
  • Options
    CyanCyan Posts: 1,262
    edited March 2017
    Fillon is now indicating he may not come to the 20 April debate, three days before the first round.

    Recap: all 11 have been invited; Macron and Mélenchon say they won't come; Le Pen, Hamon and Dupont-Aignan say they will come.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937

    What a grey and miserable day. It saddens me that, for years to come, British political life will be dominated by grinding trade negotiations, blame apportioning, sterility and paralysis. The tweedy English eccentrics responsible - Farage, Nuttall, Mogg etc. - will be but distant memories by the time all this is resolved, if it ever is to anyone's significant satisfaction. I thought we were finally turning away from the old morbid post-Imperial fetishes: a pompous contempt for everything foreign, petty nationalistic symbolism, White Cliffs of Dover, Tommy helmets, the plucky Brit underdog... But we're evidently trapped in the past for the foreseeable future. Dreary times.

    A revealing post.

    It reveals that much of what remains of europhilia - particularly in England - is driven by an embarrassment of our colonial past.

    How did you get to that?

    " old morbid post-Imperial fetishes: a pompous contempt for everything foreign, petty nationalistic symbolism, White Cliffs of Dover, Tommy helmets, the plucky Brit underdog... But we're evidently trapped in the past for the foreseeable future"

    This was a big clue.

    The words.

    Those words speak to me of regret that we keep harking back to the past, not embarrassment that we have a past.

  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,216
    Pulpstar said:

    calum said:
    It conjures the delicious vision of the EU defending the interests of Scotland, NI & Gib in negotiations, while Tessy's precious union sockpuppets angrily demand that aforementioned interests should be of no account.
    Scotland/SNP has tremendous goodwill with the EU at the moment, I feel alot of others underestimate the value of this.
    Goodwill doesn't butter any parsnips to butcher a phrase, but a drastic toning down (if not absence) of the Barroso/Spain line from last time is a big bonus.
  • Options
    BudGBudG Posts: 711
    Cyan said:

    Fillon is now indicating he may not come to the 20 April debate.
    Recap: all 11 have been invited; Macron and Mélenchon say they won't come; Le Pen, Hamon and Dupont-Aignan say they will come.

    What reason have Macron and Melenchon given for not attending?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    Pulpstar said:

    calum said:
    It conjures the delicious vision of the EU defending the interests of Scotland, NI & Gib in negotiations, while Tessy's precious union sockpuppets angrily demand that aforementioned interests should be of no account.
    Scotland/SNP has tremendous goodwill with the EU at the moment, I feel alot of others underestimate the value of this.
    Goodwill doesn't butter any parsnips to butcher a phrase, but a drastic toning down (if not absence) of the Barroso/Spain line from last time is a big bonus.
    All for naught if Sturgeon doesn't want to immediately rejoin :p
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,994
    Mr. G, Macron's reason must be that he's only got his pole position to lose, though I doubt he'd actually say that.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,362

    Pulpstar said:

    calum said:
    It conjures the delicious vision of the EU defending the interests of Scotland, NI & Gib in negotiations, while Tessy's precious union sockpuppets angrily demand that aforementioned interests should be of no account.
    Scotland/SNP has tremendous goodwill with the EU at the moment, I feel alot of others underestimate the value of this.
    Goodwill doesn't butter any parsnips to butcher a phrase, but a drastic toning down (if not absence) of the Barroso/Spain line from last time is a big bonus.
    How can Scotland be independent if she continues to be run from Brussels?
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    One wonders whether LSE will now look at the on again off again NASDAQ merger. I think it would be a better fit than DB anyway. Our interests lie outside or Europe for the time being. I think as a nation we just need to let Europe get on with whatever they are getting on with while we refocus our trade and diplomacy towards the US and Asia. Brexit was a huge topic in India, there are big expectations that India and the UK will be able to come to a trade agreement which will allow for more investment in the Indian economy by UK companies and vice versa. There is also a lot of hope that the UK will agree equivalency for degrees and professional qualifications given out by elite universities in India so that Indian graduates are ready for UK employment.

    I also know that in SE and East Asia there is a certain degree of interest in Brexit and my old contacts at Sony are all saying that the Japanese government are looking to make a UK-Japan comprehensive trade deal top of their agenda if the EU one isn't completed in time for it to carry over like CETA is expected to.

    As we move away from the referendum sponsored doom mongering it is clearer that any opportunity losses we may (and may is the key word here) experience from leaving the EU should be replaced 2x by new opportunities in the rest of the world. Trading with 15% of the global economy to the exclusion of 85% never made sense. Hopefully the DIT are up to the task, but AIUI their recruitment and promotion criteria is much tougher than other departments which has led to a general labour shortage.

    If anyone is looking to work in international trade apply now.

    We did not trade with 15% of the global economy to the exclusion of 85% of it. We are a British company and do around 65% of our trade outside Europe. Here in Hong Kong I can buy British-produced goods and services from all kinds of companies and firms. I can do the same in the US, China, Australia and countless other places. If we do not export as much as other European countries to the world, that is not the EU's fault, it is ours. Brexit will not change that.

    As for India, if we liberalise our immigration regime for Indian nationals and the Indians are willing to be less protectionist (two bigs ifs, I'd suggest), we may well get a trade deal done.

    Joff, how long are you in HK for? My gf and I will be there for a few days. I'm busy tomorrow and the day after catching up with friends but should be free on Friday if you're up for a possible drink!

    I am flying back on Friday! I would definitely have been up for it. My work colleagues head home in the evenings and I am left all alone (though, to be fair, as you know that is no great hardship over here).

  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,012



    It reveals that much of what remains of europhilia - particularly in England - is driven by an embarrassment of our colonial past.

    To be fair there is much about which to be embarrassed. The Denshawai Incident and Sir Bruce Forsyth on SCD for starters.
  • Options
    CyanCyan Posts: 1,262
    edited March 2017

    What a grey and miserable day. It saddens me that, for years to come, British political life will be dominated by grinding trade negotiations, blame apportioning, sterility and paralysis. The tweedy English eccentrics responsible - Farage, Nuttall, Mogg etc. - will be but distant memories by the time all this is resolved, if it ever is to anyone's significant satisfaction. I thought we were finally turning away from the old morbid post-Imperial fetishes: a pompous contempt for everything foreign, petty nationalistic symbolism, White Cliffs of Dover, Tommy helmets, the plucky Brit underdog... But we're evidently trapped in the past for the foreseeable future. Dreary times.

    A revealing post.

    It reveals that much of what remains of europhilia - particularly in England - is driven by an embarrassment of our colonial past.

    How did you get to that?

    " old morbid post-Imperial fetishes: a pompous contempt for everything foreign, petty nationalistic symbolism, White Cliffs of Dover, Tommy helmets, the plucky Brit underdog... But we're evidently trapped in the past for the foreseeable future"

    This was a big clue.

    The words.
    Those words speak to me of regret that we keep harking back to the past, not embarrassment that we have a past.
    Andrew Neil's message to ISIS: "Remember, all you Poundland shoppers, Blighty won an air battle in 1940!"

    That reminds me of a Soviet guy who asserted in the late 1980s, when the USSR was already going down the tubes, that if people thought the USSR wasn't to be reckoned with, they should remember who put Yuri Gagarin into space!

  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    Pagan said:

    What a grey and miserable day. It saddens me that, for years to come, British political life will be dominated by grinding trade negotiations, blame apportioning, sterility and paralysis. The tweedy English eccentrics responsible - Farage, Nuttall, Mogg etc. - will be but distant memories by the time all this is resolved, if it ever is to anyone's significant satisfaction. I thought we were finally turning away from the old morbid post-Imperial fetishes: a pompous contempt for everything foreign, petty nationalistic symbolism, White Cliffs of Dover, Tommy helmets, the plucky Brit underdog... But we're evidently trapped in the past for the foreseeable future. Dreary times.

    On the contrary our politicians spending time on grinding trade negotiations etc is a good thing it stops them spending time on idiocies such as the dangerous dogs act, id card, encryption back doors, porn filters. Remember the adage, the devil makes work for idle hands and our parliament has proved that true time and time again over the last couple of decades.
    I agree giving Politicians something to do to keep them busy so they have less time to interfere with our lives is a good idea. but think there may be better distractions, could we not encourage them to take jobs editing news papers for instance?
  • Options
    BudGBudG Posts: 711

    Mr. G, Macron's reason must be that he's only got his pole position to lose, though I doubt he'd actually say that.

    Indeed... although unless he can give a convincing alternative reason, ducking it might be more risky than attending.
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151

    I was wrong when I posted last night that the text of the Article 50 letter would be released outside market hours. Instead it will be released soon after delivery. My guess is that sterling will rise when it's released, as traders look at what will undoubtedly be warm words about the UK wanting a good deal for both sides. Then, as the responses start trickling in, it will look less rosy.

    I'd be surprised if it shifted anything substantial, unless it turns out there was a clerical error and they activated Article 50 of the Treaty of Versailles instead. (If you have Saar Basin mining stocks it might be worth selling just in case.)
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,942

    Pulpstar said:

    calum said:
    It conjures the delicious vision of the EU defending the interests of Scotland, NI & Gib in negotiations, while Tessy's precious union sockpuppets angrily demand that aforementioned interests should be of no account.
    Scotland/SNP has tremendous goodwill with the EU at the moment, I feel alot of others underestimate the value of this.
    Goodwill doesn't butter any parsnips to butcher a phrase, but a drastic toning down (if not absence) of the Barroso/Spain line from last time is a big bonus.
    Sturgeon might be able to get the basis of a future agreement with the EU to present as a plan when Indyref 2 comes round. I think the EU wants Scotland aboard, Edinburgh as the EU-US financial link (US Democrat president due in 2024) is long term a good option for all (EU, Scotland) sides.
  • Options
    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    Pulpstar said:

    calum said:
    It conjures the delicious vision of the EU defending the interests of Scotland, NI & Gib in negotiations, while Tessy's precious union sockpuppets angrily demand that aforementioned interests should be of no account.
    Scotland/SNP has tremendous goodwill with the EU at the moment, I feel alot of others underestimate the value of this.
    Goodwill doesn't butter any parsnips to butcher a phrase, but a drastic toning down (if not absence) of the Barroso/Spain line from last time is a big bonus.
    How can Scotland be independent if she continues to be run from Brussels?

    SNP hate England more than they hate Brussels.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937

    Pulpstar said:

    calum said:
    It conjures the delicious vision of the EU defending the interests of Scotland, NI & Gib in negotiations, while Tessy's precious union sockpuppets angrily demand that aforementioned interests should be of no account.
    Scotland/SNP has tremendous goodwill with the EU at the moment, I feel alot of others underestimate the value of this.
    Goodwill doesn't butter any parsnips to butcher a phrase, but a drastic toning down (if not absence) of the Barroso/Spain line from last time is a big bonus.
    How can Scotland be independent if she continues to be run from Brussels?

    Scotland can choose to pool its sovereignty with whoever it likes. And it can choose to stop doing so, too.

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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,450

    Countdown to "but you haven't invoked Article 50 yet" being replaced with "but you haven't left yet" as to why Britain isn't facing an immediate post-referendum recession in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 ...

    I think the customs union and free trade in goods are the most important for our trade with the EU.

    Despite the noise, the single market in services within the EU has never been completed (or close to being completed, partly because its so heavily in the UK interest for it to be so)

    The main impact is in financial services passporting, which could be addressed by equivalence. In any event, even if we had Remained within the EU it would have been full of uncertainty as well, with the risk of the single market in financial services becoming increasingly dominated and regulated by Eurozone interests at the expense of us taking opportunities in vibrant global markets.

    For insurance, legal services and professional services the impact will be minimal.

    I am not sure about the others, but there are definitely big issues for legal services with Brexit:

    http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/news/press-releases/no-deal-post-brexit-could-be-devastating-for-uks-valuable-legal-sector/

    Solicitors in England and Wales qualify to practice in England and Wales. Other European countries have different legal jurisdictions that those same solicitors are not qualified to practice in. That even applies within the UK - in Scotland.

    Major legal firms may well have many branches within the EU that are part of the same parent that could be inconvenienced post-Brexit as administrative arrangements change.

    I don't think that would hugely affect our exports of legal services.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,370

    What a grey and miserable day. It saddens me that, for years to come, British political life will be dominated by grinding trade negotiations, blame apportioning, sterility and paralysis. The tweedy English eccentrics responsible - Farage, Nuttall, Mogg etc. - will be but distant memories by the time all this is resolved, if it ever is to anyone's significant satisfaction. I thought we were finally turning away from the old morbid post-Imperial fetishes: a pompous contempt for everything foreign, petty nationalistic symbolism, White Cliffs of Dover, Tommy helmets, the plucky Brit underdog... But we're evidently trapped in the past for the foreseeable future. Dreary times.

    A revealing post.

    It reveals that much of what remains of europhilia - particularly in England - is driven by an embarrassment of our colonial past.

    How did you get to that?

    " old morbid post-Imperial fetishes: a pompous contempt for everything foreign, petty nationalistic symbolism, White Cliffs of Dover, Tommy helmets, the plucky Brit underdog... But we're evidently trapped in the past for the foreseeable future"

    This was a big clue.

    The words.

    Those words speak to me of regret that we keep harking back to the past, not embarrassment that we have a past.

    There is also a disconnect (most eloquently, and wrongly, expressed by @Cyclefree) that somehow if we see the good in Europe we have a disdain for the things that make Britain British, whether that be marmite, the Changing of the Guard, our stiff upper lip, or what have you. Of course it does not.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,969

    Pulpstar said:

    calum said:
    It conjures the delicious vision of the EU defending the interests of Scotland, NI & Gib in negotiations, while Tessy's precious union sockpuppets angrily demand that aforementioned interests should be of no account.
    Scotland/SNP has tremendous goodwill with the EU at the moment, I feel alot of others underestimate the value of this.
    Goodwill doesn't butter any parsnips to butcher a phrase, but a drastic toning down (if not absence) of the Barroso/Spain line from last time is a big bonus.
    How can Scotland be independent if she continues to be run from Brussels?
    She can't. It is the one great failing of the Scottish Independence Movement - that they apparently don't really want to be independent.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Corbyn going down the statesman route at least with question 1. Smart. Should be serious today.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    I was wrong when I posted last night that the text of the Article 50 letter would be released outside market hours. Instead it will be released soon after delivery. My guess is that sterling will rise when it's released, as traders look at what will undoubtedly be warm words about the UK wanting a good deal for both sides. Then, as the responses start trickling in, it will look less rosy.

    I'd be surprised if it shifted anything substantial, unless it turns out there was a clerical error and they activated Article 50 of the Treaty of Versailles instead. (If you have Saar Basin mining stocks it might be worth selling just in case.)
    France would certainly be pleased!
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    What time is it in Remainia?

    It's Clutching the Scotland straw o'clock.

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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Jezza going on police cuts cuts cuts....
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,277
    A50 day and Corbyn goes on about bobbies on the beat. Another bonkers performance.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited March 2017

    Pulpstar said:

    calum said:
    It conjures the delicious vision of the EU defending the interests of Scotland, NI & Gib in negotiations, while Tessy's precious union sockpuppets angrily demand that aforementioned interests should be of no account.
    Scotland/SNP has tremendous goodwill with the EU at the moment, I feel alot of others underestimate the value of this.
    Goodwill doesn't butter any parsnips to butcher a phrase, but a drastic toning down (if not absence) of the Barroso/Spain line from last time is a big bonus.
    The EU parliament and the European Comission are two very different beasts.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    A50 day and Corbyn goes on about bobbies on the beat. Another bonkers performance.

    Disagreed, there's little he can reasonably say about A50 but given this is the first PMQ's after last week's terrorist attacks the Police are a key issue.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,370
    edited March 2017
    What's that?? RAF Typhoons flying over to Remainia?? I thought this was a time to come together.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Cyan said:

    What a grey and miserable day. It saddens me that, for years to come, British political life will be dominated by grinding trade negotiations, blame apportioning, sterility and paralysis. The tweedy English eccentrics responsible - Farage, Nuttall, Mogg etc. - will be but distant memories by the time all this is resolved, if it ever is to anyone's significant satisfaction. I thought we were finally turning away from the old morbid post-Imperial fetishes: a pompous contempt for everything foreign, petty nationalistic symbolism, White Cliffs of Dover, Tommy helmets, the plucky Brit underdog... But we're evidently trapped in the past for the foreseeable future. Dreary times.

    A revealing post.

    It reveals that much of what remains of europhilia - particularly in England - is driven by an embarrassment of our colonial past.

    How did you get to that?

    " old morbid post-Imperial fetishes: a pompous contempt for everything foreign, petty nationalistic symbolism, White Cliffs of Dover, Tommy helmets, the plucky Brit underdog... But we're evidently trapped in the past for the foreseeable future"

    This was a big clue.

    The words.
    Those words speak to me of regret that we keep harking back to the past, not embarrassment that we have a past.
    Andrew Neil's message to ISIS: "Remember, all you Poundland shoppers, Blighty won an air battle in 1940!"

    That reminds me of a Soviet guy who asserted in the late 1980s, when the USSR was already going down the tubes, that if people though the USSR wasn't to be reckoned with, they should remember who put Yuri Gagarin into space!

    Am I proud we stood alone against the Nazis in 1940? You bet your bottom dollar I am. Am I embarrassed that on the day that Article 50 was triggered by the PM our biggest national newspaper chose to mark the event by using the White Cliffs of Dover to essentially tell our closest neighbours to piss off? Yup, I am.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,012

    Pulpstar said:

    calum said:
    It conjures the delicious vision of the EU defending the interests of Scotland, NI & Gib in negotiations, while Tessy's precious union sockpuppets angrily demand that aforementioned interests should be of no account.
    Scotland/SNP has tremendous goodwill with the EU at the moment, I feel alot of others underestimate the value of this.
    Goodwill doesn't butter any parsnips to butcher a phrase, but a drastic toning down (if not absence) of the Barroso/Spain line from last time is a big bonus.
    How can Scotland be independent if she continues to be run from Brussels?
    She can't. It is the one great failing of the Scottish Independence Movement - that they apparently don't really want to be independent.
    It's independence from England they want, all else is tangential.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,450

    What a grey and miserable day. It saddens me that, for years to come, British political life will be dominated by grinding trade negotiations, blame apportioning, sterility and paralysis. The tweedy English eccentrics responsible - Farage, Nuttall, Mogg etc. - will be but distant memories by the time all this is resolved, if it ever is to anyone's significant satisfaction. I thought we were finally turning away from the old morbid post-Imperial fetishes: a pompous contempt for everything foreign, petty nationalistic symbolism, White Cliffs of Dover, Tommy helmets, the plucky Brit underdog... But we're evidently trapped in the past for the foreseeable future. Dreary times.

    A revealing post.

    It reveals that much of what remains of europhilia - particularly in England - is driven by an embarrassment of our colonial past.

    How did you get to that?

    " old morbid post-Imperial fetishes: a pompous contempt for everything foreign, petty nationalistic symbolism, White Cliffs of Dover, Tommy helmets, the plucky Brit underdog... But we're evidently trapped in the past for the foreseeable future"

    This was a big clue.

    The words.

    Those words speak to me of regret that we keep harking back to the past, not embarrassment that we have a past.

    I think the link being made was clear: that leaving the EU is by definition all about harking back to the past in the search of lost imperial glory.

    I - and many other Brexiteers - see it as being about the future.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,645

    What a grey and miserable day. It saddens me that, for years to come, British political life will be dominated by grinding trade negotiations, blame apportioning, sterility and paralysis. The tweedy English eccentrics responsible - Farage, Nuttall, Mogg etc. - will be but distant memories by the time all this is resolved, if it ever is to anyone's significant satisfaction. I thought we were finally turning away from the old morbid post-Imperial fetishes: a pompous contempt for everything foreign, petty nationalistic symbolism, White Cliffs of Dover, Tommy helmets, the plucky Brit underdog... But we're evidently trapped in the past for the foreseeable future. Dreary times.

    Sunset and evening jar
    And one drear pall for me
    Let there be no remoaning at the bar
    When Brexit is clear to see.
This discussion has been closed.