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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ipsos MORI has LAB, the traditional party of the working class

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  • rcs1000 said:

    Patrick said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mr. Indigo, legislative holier-than-thouness is most tiresome. Cf the Fixed Term Parliaments Act, the 0.7% on foreign aid tosh, etc etc.

    It's government legislating for headlines. Piffle and balderdash and so forth.

    I'm struggling to think of any countries other than the UK that don't have fixed term governments (Australia is three years, the US four).
    The whole unfree world. China's government, for example, has no dead date. Just saying...
    China does have fixed term parliaments. And fixed term party congresses.
    I'm being pernickety of course - but you said governments not parliaments. ;-)
    Actually the Chinese government does have a fixed term: From now until the heatdeath of the universe (this is the official CPC line).
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,068
    edited February 2017
    Grayling seems to regard any vote against his views as somehow illegitimate. He's a sophist, not a true philosopher.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    Alright, own up

    Which one of you lot is trying to balance off your book with UKIP/UKIP £32 @ 570.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Alright, own up

    Which one of you lot is trying to balance off your book with UKIP/UKIP £32 @ 570.

    Not me, I'm looking at the Corbyn to go before the next GE market.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    I am saddened more than angry, but I have decided to take the long view. Once the Baby-boomers have popped their clogs and gone to their reward in British Empire MkII Heaven, the rest of us can on with cleaning up the oncoming financial mess....
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,690
    PAW said:

    Trying to understand the proposed USA tax on imports - is it the same or different as charging VAT on imports here?

    The Border Tax Adjustment basically says that you can offset domestic costs against tax, but not foreign ones. The consequence is that - assuming the corporate tax rate is cut to 15% - that prices for foreign goods are 15% higher than for domestic ones. In other words, it is a tariff.

    However, it is also a particularly inefficient tariff, because it encourages all kinds of uneconomic behaviour. Imagine you are a loss making tech start-up. It doesn't matter if you buy $100m of Chinese tat, and sell it for $101m, because the losses on your regular business dwarf the impact of not being able to offset the Chinese import costs against tax. Loss making firms (biotech, technology, etc.) will all start-up little import-export businesses on the side to earn a small carry importing products so as to help other firms avoid tax.

    Furthermore, it has some bizarre effects in the energy industry. Essentially, Canadian crude oil has just become 15% more expensive relative to US crude. (That Keystone XL pipeline may never be filled if the BTA comes in without exceptions.) US refiners who are currently setup to handle Mayan Heavy (from Mexico and Venezuela) will have to change to refine other types of crude, largely from the US.

    There's another reason why the BTA is a bad tax/tariff. Imagine you have a business that collects information in the UK, sends it to a server in the US for processing, and then sells the finished product to the French. How will you work out the correct tax on the importation of the (in this case) live football data? It's going to be mana from heaven for tax lawyers, as well as almost certainly being in breach of WTO rules.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,284
    Sean_F said:

    Grayling seems to regard any vote against his views as somehow illegitimate. He's a sophist, not a true philosopher.
    A bit OTT, but sets out my feelings.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,939

    MTimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    Immediately before the last GE Mori forecast the UK Left triumvirate of Lib/Lab/Green would poll 48. They polled 43. An overstatement of five.

    They forecast a Remain vote of 55. Remain polled 48. An overstatement of seven.

    Even in today's poll they think that Con/UKIP are on 49 - which means the right have theoretically lost votes since 2015, Corbyn's appointment and the referendum. That defies logic.

    By contrast:

    Com Res 52
    ICM 54
    Yougov 54
    Opinium 51


    In what way is UKIP right wing?
    In the way that they are commonly described as right wing.
    I find left-right to be quite a lazy way of thinking, I prefer authoritarian-libertarian, and I think they come out on the authoritarian (i.e. left wing) end of the scale.
    Is this trolling? Traditionally authoritarianism is seen as orthogonal to the left-right axis, so there are left and right wing authoritarians.
    You need the second axis for this to make sense. So Authoritarian-egalitarian on one axis, and collectivist-libertarian on the other. Unless that is what you were meaning, Robert.
    Here - have some fun with the world's smallest political quiz .....

    https://www.libertarianism.com/Quiz
    "Your PERSONAL issues Score is 90%

    Your ECONOMICS issues Score is 40%

    According to your answers, the political group that agrees with you most is...

    LEFT (LIBERAL)"

    Surely some mistake - I thought I was a Red BNP Knuckledragger....
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,690

    MTimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    Immediately before the last GE Mori forecast the UK Left triumvirate of Lib/Lab/Green would poll 48. They polled 43. An overstatement of five.

    They forecast a Remain vote of 55. Remain polled 48. An overstatement of seven.

    Even in today's poll they think that Con/UKIP are on 49 - which means the right have theoretically lost votes since 2015, Corbyn's appointment and the referendum. That defies logic.

    By contrast:

    Com Res 52
    ICM 54
    Yougov 54
    Opinium 51


    In what way is UKIP right wing?
    In the way that they are commonly described as right wing.
    I find left-right to be quite a lazy way of thinking, I prefer authoritarian-libertarian, and I think they come out on the authoritarian (i.e. left wing) end of the scale.
    Is this trolling? Traditionally authoritarianism is seen as orthogonal to the left-right axis, so there are left and right wing authoritarians.
    You need the second axis for this to make sense. So Authoritarian-egalitarian on one axis, and collectivist-libertarian on the other. Unless that is what you were meaning, Robert.
    Here - have some fun with the world's smallest political quiz .....

    https://www.libertarianism.com/Quiz
    Your PERSONAL issues Score is 100%

    Your ECONOMICS issues Score is 80%

  • So what's Trump going to pull out of first

    1) NATO
    2) The UN
    3) The WTO

    If anyone says Melania or Russian Hookers, PB threads will be exclusively on AV for the next six months.
  • Well that is a humdinger of a rant.

    The idea that the UK will re-join the EU after leaving is 'whistling in the dark' especially as we will be a fully independent Nation trading freely with the World, and that assumes the EU itself still exists
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,690
    Patrick said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Patrick said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mr. Indigo, legislative holier-than-thouness is most tiresome. Cf the Fixed Term Parliaments Act, the 0.7% on foreign aid tosh, etc etc.

    It's government legislating for headlines. Piffle and balderdash and so forth.

    I'm struggling to think of any countries other than the UK that don't have fixed term governments (Australia is three years, the US four).
    The whole unfree world. China's government, for example, has no dead date. Just saying...
    China does have fixed term parliaments. And fixed term party congresses.
    I'm being pernickety of course - but you said governments not parliaments. ;-)
    Actually the Chinese government does have a fixed term: From now until the heatdeath of the universe (this is the official CPC line).
    True, but the question was about the Fixed Term Parliament Act.

    :smile:
  • Your PERSONAL issues Score is 90%

    Your ECONOMICS issues Score is 80%

    According to your answers, the political group that agrees with you most is...

    LIBERTARIAN
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,939
    rcs1000 said:

    MTimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    Immediately before the last GE Mori forecast the UK Left triumvirate of Lib/Lab/Green would poll 48. They polled 43. An overstatement of five.

    They forecast a Remain vote of 55. Remain polled 48. An overstatement of seven.

    Even in today's poll they think that Con/UKIP are on 49 - which means the right have theoretically lost votes since 2015, Corbyn's appointment and the referendum. That defies logic.

    By contrast:

    Com Res 52
    ICM 54
    Yougov 54
    Opinium 51


    In what way is UKIP right wing?
    In the way that they are commonly described as right wing.
    I find left-right to be quite a lazy way of thinking, I prefer authoritarian-libertarian, and I think they come out on the authoritarian (i.e. left wing) end of the scale.
    Is this trolling? Traditionally authoritarianism is seen as orthogonal to the left-right axis, so there are left and right wing authoritarians.
    You need the second axis for this to make sense. So Authoritarian-egalitarian on one axis, and collectivist-libertarian on the other. Unless that is what you were meaning, Robert.
    Here - have some fun with the world's smallest political quiz .....

    https://www.libertarianism.com/Quiz
    Your PERSONAL issues Score is 100%

    Your ECONOMICS issues Score is 80%

    80%? You must have voted "No" to bringing back Workhouses.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Go Corbyn, Go
  • eekeek Posts: 27,939

    So what's Trump going to pull out of first

    1) NATO
    2) The UN
    3) The WTO

    If anyone says Melania or Russian Hookers, PB threads will be exclusively on AV for the next six months.

    Melania - I'm looking forward to you finding 450-540 different ways of talking about AV....
  • Further proof of AC Grayling's daftness, were it needed:
    https://twitter.com/acgrayling/status/832231620144926720
  • So what's Trump going to pull out of first

    1) NATO
    2) The UN
    3) The WTO

    If anyone says Melania or Russian Hookers, PB threads will be exclusively on AV for the next six months.

    The IMF
  • For that quiz I got Left (liberal)....
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    My turn...

    Your PERSONAL issues Score is 70%

    Your ECONOMICS issues Score is 30%

    According to your answers, the political group that agrees with you most is...

    LEFT (LIBERAL)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,068

    Further proof of AC Grayling's daftness, were it needed:
    https://twitter.com/acgrayling/status/832231620144926720

    There's such a thing as being careful what you wish for. Would he really want a Parliament in which a Conservative government relied on supply and confidence from UKIP?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,068
    edited February 2017

    For that quiz I got Left (liberal)....

    Oddly enough, I almost did (70% personal, 40% economic). Mind you, I think they regard anyone who doesn't wish to repeal the Mines and Factories Act 1842 as a bleeding hearted liberal.
  • JasonJason Posts: 1,614
    edited February 2017
    https://order-order.com/2017/02/16/libdems-call-cops-vote-snell-go-hell-muslim-texts/

    Let's see if the MSM give this the same oxygen of publicity that they did with Nuttall's indiscretions. Anyone care to offer any odds of that happening? I'll kick off with a 1000/1 against.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,690

    So what's Trump going to pull out of first

    1) NATO
    2) The UN
    3) The WTO

    If anyone says Melania or Russian Hookers, PB threads will be exclusively on AV for the next six months.

    The IMF
    An interesting idea: however, I think they probably won't. Why? Because right now the US is the only country with a veto on IMF decisions. They are the only person people seeking an IMF loan absolutely and definitively have to suck up to.

    If the US left the IMF, then that power would go to either the EU (which for all its faults is a massive creditor to the world) or China (which would love to step into that spot).
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    MTimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    Immediately before the last GE Mori forecast the UK Left triumvirate of Lib/Lab/Green would poll 48. They polled 43. An overstatement of five.

    They forecast a Remain vote of 55. Remain polled 48. An overstatement of seven.

    Even in today's poll they think that Con/UKIP are on 49 - which means the right have theoretically lost votes since 2015, Corbyn's appointment and the referendum. That defies logic.

    By contrast:

    Com Res 52
    ICM 54
    Yougov 54
    Opinium 51


    In what way is UKIP right wing?
    In the way that they are commonly described as right wing.
    I find left-right to be quite a lazy way of thinking, I prefer authoritarian-libertarian, and I think they come out on the authoritarian (i.e. left wing) end of the scale.
    Is this trolling? Traditionally authoritarianism is seen as orthogonal to the left-right axis, so there are left and right wing authoritarians.
    You need the second axis for this to make sense. So Authoritarian-egalitarian on one axis, and collectivist-libertarian on the other. Unless that is what you were meaning, Robert.
    Here - have some fun with the world's smallest political quiz .....

    https://www.libertarianism.com/Quiz
    "Your PERSONAL issues Score is 90%

    Your ECONOMICS issues Score is 40%

    According to your answers, the political group that agrees with you most is...

    LEFT (LIBERAL)"

    Surely some mistake - I thought I was a Red BNP Knuckledragger....
    My score was within a whisker of yours. It's definitely hooky.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited February 2017
    To see how disruptive the US border-adjusted tax proposal would be, imagine a situation where all major economies adopted it, at similar percentage rates. The net effect would be a massive decrease in world trade, and therefore very inefficient allocation of economic effort.

    On the other hand, if all major economies adopted VAT, it would work fine, it would be neutral in terms of affecting world trade.
  • Mr. 1000, does the set up of the IMF demand that *someone* have that veto role, or could it lapse if the US left?
  • My turn...

    Your PERSONAL issues Score is 70%

    Your ECONOMICS issues Score is 30%

    According to your answers, the political group that agrees with you most is...

    LEFT (LIBERAL)

    Hmm. Personal 100%, Economics 90%. I'd describe anyone who got 100% on the Economics as a psychopath, not a libertarian.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    And the more detailed quiz at https://www.politicalcompass.org/test/ (takes about 5 minutes)

    gives

    https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2?ec=-4.13&soc=-5.13

    which puts me near Gandhi on their chart :D:D

    image
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654

    MTimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    Immediately before the last GE Mori forecast the UK Left triumvirate of Lib/Lab/Green would poll 48. They polled 43. An overstatement of five.

    They forecast a Remain vote of 55. Remain polled 48. An overstatement of seven.

    Even in today's poll they think that Con/UKIP are on 49 - which means the right have theoretically lost votes since 2015, Corbyn's appointment and the referendum. That defies logic.

    By contrast:

    Com Res 52
    ICM 54
    Yougov 54
    Opinium 51


    In what way is UKIP right wing?
    In the way that they are commonly described as right wing.
    I find left-right to be quite a lazy way of thinking, I prefer authoritarian-libertarian, and I think they come out on the authoritarian (i.e. left wing) end of the scale.
    Is this trolling? Traditionally authoritarianism is seen as orthogonal to the left-right axis, so there are left and right wing authoritarians.
    You need the second axis for this to make sense. So Authoritarian-egalitarian on one axis, and collectivist-libertarian on the other. Unless that is what you were meaning, Robert.
    Here - have some fun with the world's smallest political quiz .....

    https://www.libertarianism.com/Quiz
    "Your PERSONAL issues Score is 90%

    Your ECONOMICS issues Score is 40%

    According to your answers, the political group that agrees with you most is...

    LEFT (LIBERAL)"

    Surely some mistake - I thought I was a Red BNP Knuckledragger....
    Even more alarming, that is exactly the scores I got.
  • rcs1000 said:

    So what's Trump going to pull out of first

    1) NATO
    2) The UN
    3) The WTO

    If anyone says Melania or Russian Hookers, PB threads will be exclusively on AV for the next six months.

    The IMF
    An interesting idea: however, I think they probably won't. Why? Because right now the US is the only country with a veto on IMF decisions. They are the only person people seeking an IMF loan absolutely and definitively have to suck up to.

    If the US left the IMF, then that power would go to either the EU (which for all its faults is a massive creditor to the world) or China (which would love to step into that spot).
    What odds on US vetoing IMF help for Greece
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Animal_pb said:

    Hmm. Personal 100%, Economics 90%. I'd describe anyone who got 100% on the Economics as a psychopath, not a libertarian.

    :D:D I would not take any such quiz too seriously ...
  • I'd not take such tests too seriously. Wide open to even unwitting bias of the creator, and the political culture in which they grew up (for example, a lefty in the UK is not necessarily the same as a lefty in France, or the US).

    Even proper psychometric questionnaires can find it difficult to accurately measure the values they want to investigate.
  • Sean_F said:

    For that quiz I got Left (liberal)....

    Oddly enough, I almost did (70% personal, 40% economic). Mind you, I think they regard anyone who doesn't wish to repeal the Mines and Factories Act 1842 as a bleeding hearted liberal.
    Yeah, the questions are bit simplistic and lack nuance. I got the same economic score you did, with my personal score being 90%.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,939
    DavidL said:

    MTimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    Immediately before the last GE Mori forecast the UK Left triumvirate of Lib/Lab/Green would poll 48. They polled 43. An overstatement of five.

    They forecast a Remain vote of 55. Remain polled 48. An overstatement of seven.

    Even in today's poll they think that Con/UKIP are on 49 - which means the right have theoretically lost votes since 2015, Corbyn's appointment and the referendum. That defies logic.

    By contrast:

    Com Res 52
    ICM 54
    Yougov 54
    Opinium 51


    In what way is UKIP right wing?
    In the way that they are commonly described as right wing.
    I find left-right to be quite a lazy way of thinking, I prefer authoritarian-libertarian, and I think they come out on the authoritarian (i.e. left wing) end of the scale.
    Is this trolling? Traditionally authoritarianism is seen as orthogonal to the left-right axis, so there are left and right wing authoritarians.
    You need the second axis for this to make sense. So Authoritarian-egalitarian on one axis, and collectivist-libertarian on the other. Unless that is what you were meaning, Robert.
    Here - have some fun with the world's smallest political quiz .....

    https://www.libertarianism.com/Quiz
    "Your PERSONAL issues Score is 90%

    Your ECONOMICS issues Score is 40%

    According to your answers, the political group that agrees with you most is...

    LEFT (LIBERAL)"

    Surely some mistake - I thought I was a Red BNP Knuckledragger....
    Even more alarming, that is exactly the scores I got.
    Welcome to the Labour Party!
  • Another LIBERAL (Personal 100, Economic 40)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654

    rcs1000 said:

    So what's Trump going to pull out of first

    1) NATO
    2) The UN
    3) The WTO

    If anyone says Melania or Russian Hookers, PB threads will be exclusively on AV for the next six months.

    The IMF
    An interesting idea: however, I think they probably won't. Why? Because right now the US is the only country with a veto on IMF decisions. They are the only person people seeking an IMF loan absolutely and definitively have to suck up to.

    If the US left the IMF, then that power would go to either the EU (which for all its faults is a massive creditor to the world) or China (which would love to step into that spot).
    What odds on US vetoing IMF help for Greece
    Very high. Trump has already made it clear that this is a problem for the EZ, not the IMF and I don't think he will find too many in the IMF itself disagreeing with him. Their arms were twisted out of their sockets the last time.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    Immediately before the last GE Mori forecast the UK Left triumvirate of Lib/Lab/Green would poll 48. They polled 43. An overstatement of five.

    They forecast a Remain vote of 55. Remain polled 48. An overstatement of seven.

    Even in today's poll they think that Con/UKIP are on 49 - which means the right have theoretically lost votes since 2015, Corbyn's appointment and the referendum. That defies logic.

    By contrast:

    Com Res 52
    ICM 54
    Yougov 54
    Opinium 51


    In what way is UKIP right wing?
    In the way that they are commonly described as right wing.
    I find left-right to be quite a lazy way of thinking, I prefer authoritarian-libertarian, and I think they come out on the authoritarian (i.e. left wing) end of the scale.
    Is this trolling? Traditionally authoritarianism is seen as orthogonal to the left-right axis, so there are left and right wing authoritarians.
    You need the second axis for this to make sense. So Authoritarian-egalitarian on one axis, and collectivist-libertarian on the other. Unless that is what you were meaning, Robert.
    Here - have some fun with the world's smallest political quiz .....

    https://www.libertarianism.com/Quiz
    Personal 100%
    Economics 80%

    Pretty libertarian, but that is hardly a shock ... :)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654

    DavidL said:

    MTimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    Immediately before the last GE Mori forecast the UK Left triumvirate of Lib/Lab/Green would poll 48. They polled 43. An overstatement of five.

    They forecast a Remain vote of 55. Remain polled 48. An overstatement of seven.

    Even in today's poll they think that Con/UKIP are on 49 - which means the right have theoretically lost votes since 2015, Corbyn's appointment and the referendum. That defies logic.

    By contrast:

    Com Res 52
    ICM 54
    Yougov 54
    Opinium 51


    In what way is UKIP right wing?
    In the way that they are commonly described as right wing.
    I find left-right to be quite a lazy way of thinking, I prefer authoritarian-libertarian, and I think they come out on the authoritarian (i.e. left wing) end of the scale.
    Is this trolling? Traditionally authoritarianism is seen as orthogonal to the left-right axis, so there are left and right wing authoritarians.
    You need the second axis for this to make sense. So Authoritarian-egalitarian on one axis, and collectivist-libertarian on the other. Unless that is what you were meaning, Robert.
    Here - have some fun with the world's smallest political quiz .....

    https://www.libertarianism.com/Quiz
    "Your PERSONAL issues Score is 90%

    Your ECONOMICS issues Score is 40%

    According to your answers, the political group that agrees with you most is...

    LEFT (LIBERAL)"

    Surely some mistake - I thought I was a Red BNP Knuckledragger....
    Even more alarming, that is exactly the scores I got.
    Welcome to the Labour Party!
    NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
  • Mr. L, so... let's say it's vetoed. It might not have helped Greece anyway, but the EU will get to blame the Orange One.

    What happens to Greece?
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    And the more detailed quiz at https://www.politicalcompass.org/test/ (takes about 5 minutes)

    gives

    https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2?ec=-4.13&soc=-5.13

    which puts me near Gandhi on their chart :D:D

    image


    I think you would like this site:

    http://www.culturalcognition.net/kahan/
  • rcs1000 said:

    So what's Trump going to pull out of first

    1) NATO
    2) The UN
    3) The WTO

    If anyone says Melania or Russian Hookers, PB threads will be exclusively on AV for the next six months.

    The IMF
    An interesting idea: however, I think they probably won't. Why? Because right now the US is the only country with a veto on IMF decisions. They are the only person people seeking an IMF loan absolutely and definitively have to suck up to.

    If the US left the IMF, then that power would go to either the EU (which for all its faults is a massive creditor to the world) or China (which would love to step into that spot).
    What odds on US vetoing IMF help for Greece
    Honestly, even if the US doesn't veto further Greek support, the likelihood is that the non-EU board members will vote it down anyway. There's real anger that Fund resources have been used to bail out a part of such a wealthy political federation.
  • 70: 40 - centrist.
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    Immediately before the last GE Mori forecast the UK Left triumvirate of Lib/Lab/Green would poll 48. They polled 43. An overstatement of five.

    They forecast a Remain vote of 55. Remain polled 48. An overstatement of seven.

    Even in today's poll they think that Con/UKIP are on 49 - which means the right have theoretically lost votes since 2015, Corbyn's appointment and the referendum. That defies logic.

    By contrast:

    Com Res 52
    ICM 54
    Yougov 54
    Opinium 51


    In what way is UKIP right wing?
    - Nationalist, not internationalist
    - Vocally opposed to any significant level of immigration
    - Tends to the 'punishment' rather than 'rehabilitation' role of the criminal justice system
    - Was opposed to gay marriage when it was going through (I think? - they certainly gained Tory defectors on the issue).
    - Low priority for environmentalism. Sceptical on climate change / necessity for anti-CO2 measures.

    For example.
    I don't think any of those are specifically left/right issues.
    I disagree. On social and identity questions (which are arguably the most important dividing lines at the moment), UKIP are consistently on the right.

    I think someone once came up with seven axes on which left-right issues can be judged (economic, social values, authoritarian-liberal etc) but I can't remember who it was or what the model was called. It does illustrate that it's a complex business though and that so-called contradictions will exist (I say so-called because they're only a contradiction if one takes the view that a party should hold a consistent 'left' or 'right' stance across the board, which were that the case would negate the need for a seven-dimensional model).
  • Sean_F said:

    Further proof of AC Grayling's daftness, were it needed:
    https://twitter.com/acgrayling/status/832231620144926720

    There's such a thing as being careful what you wish for. Would he really want a Parliament in which a Conservative government relied on supply and confidence from UKIP?
    If you were to take away all Labour's FPTP-guaranteed/tactical votes, they'd probably be polling in the teens right now. And that's on the assumption that they hadn't split, which isn't a particularly safe assumption.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,690
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So what's Trump going to pull out of first

    1) NATO
    2) The UN
    3) The WTO

    If anyone says Melania or Russian Hookers, PB threads will be exclusively on AV for the next six months.

    The IMF
    An interesting idea: however, I think they probably won't. Why? Because right now the US is the only country with a veto on IMF decisions. They are the only person people seeking an IMF loan absolutely and definitively have to suck up to.

    If the US left the IMF, then that power would go to either the EU (which for all its faults is a massive creditor to the world) or China (which would love to step into that spot).
    What odds on US vetoing IMF help for Greece
    Very high. Trump has already made it clear that this is a problem for the EZ, not the IMF and I don't think he will find too many in the IMF itself disagreeing with him. Their arms were twisted out of their sockets the last time.
    All that being said...

    The IMF isn't going to call in old loans (they can't unilaterally change the conditions of loans already issued), they can merely say they will not participate in roll-overs of debt, or any new bail out.

    The sum that is due in the middle of the year, while large for Greece, is only about €4bn. This compares to the Eurozone's trade deficit in 2016 (just for reference, the two aren't really connected) of more than €250bn.

    The only real question about the IMF not participating is whether that causes Germany to say "no" to the Eurozone putting its hands in its pockets. Here it's a much more difficult question: the CDU is stuck between the AfD (who say "no way!") and the SPD (who say "more Europe!"). A collapse in Greece would probably not be good for (a) helping stem the flow of migrants, and (b) the vote share of the CDU, who'd be blamed by people on both sides. For this reason, I suspect we'll see a fudge, where holders of July debt are effectively "bought off" with a voluntary two year extension (maybe using some of the ECB's big profits on Irish debt).
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited February 2017

    And the more detailed quiz at https://www.politicalcompass.org/test/ (takes about 5 minutes)

    gives

    https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2?ec=-4.13&soc=-5.13

    which puts me near Gandhi on their chart :D:D

    image


    https://www.politicalcompass.org/chart?ec=0.38&soc=-3.44

    Half way between Gandhi and Friedman!! ;|
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,364
    I was slightly North East of Gandhi.

    But a not sure option would have been good.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    CD13 said:

    I was slightly North East of Gandhi.

    But a not sure option would have been good.

    Some of the questions are very iffy. Are some people naturally unlucky? - yes if you are born with a congenital defect, I would say you are. But in all cases you make your own luck, regardless of where you start. So how to answer that?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    I got Liberal on the smallest quiz and a halfway-down libertarian just a smidgen right of centre on the larger compass quiz. I definitely consider myself a centrist now though.

    Other posters that spring to mind as broadly centrist : Foxinsox, Scott P, Eagles, perhaps David Herdson.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,284
    90 20. Just about stayed on the chart.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited February 2017
    Trump

    image
  • Stephen Bush on the Labour non-leadership contest:

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/02/who-running-replace-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader

    I was pleased to see that he agrees with me that Clive Lewis's chances have diminished rather than strengthened with his resignation.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769

    Trump

    image

    On trade hes way off to the left.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Your PERSONAL issues Score is 90%

    Your ECONOMICS issues Score is 80%

    According to your answers, the political group that agrees with you most is...

    LIBERTARIAN

    Close, TSE ... 100/80
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    rcs1000 said:

    MTimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    Immediately before the last GE Mori forecast the UK Left triumvirate of Lib/Lab/Green would poll 48. They polled 43. An overstatement of five.

    They forecast a Remain vote of 55. Remain polled 48. An overstatement of seven.

    Even in today's poll they think that Con/UKIP are on 49 - which means the right have theoretically lost votes since 2015, Corbyn's appointment and the referendum. That defies logic.

    By contrast:

    Com Res 52
    ICM 54
    Yougov 54
    Opinium 51


    In what way is UKIP right wing?
    In the way that they are commonly described as right wing.
    I find left-right to be quite a lazy way of thinking, I prefer authoritarian-libertarian, and I think they come out on the authoritarian (i.e. left wing) end of the scale.
    Is this trolling? Traditionally authoritarianism is seen as orthogonal to the left-right axis, so there are left and right wing authoritarians.
    You need the second axis for this to make sense. So Authoritarian-egalitarian on one axis, and collectivist-libertarian on the other. Unless that is what you were meaning, Robert.
    Here - have some fun with the world's smallest political quiz .....

    https://www.libertarianism.com/Quiz
    Your PERSONAL issues Score is 100%

    Your ECONOMICS issues Score is 80%

    No wonder we often agree. Identical score.
  • I'm agog at all these pbers who are apparently comfortable with incest being legalised.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,652
    90:70
    Must do better.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    MTimT said:


    Some of the questions are very iffy. Are some people naturally unlucky? - yes if you are born with a congenital defect, I would say you are. But in all cases you make your own luck, regardless of where you start. So how to answer that?

    I took those sort of questions as something that sets out your worldview - do actually believe in luck - that sort of thing.

    It is only an internet quiz, but it is interesting nonetheless.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    I'm agog at all these pbers who are apparently comfortable with incest being legalised.

    Eh???
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    I'm agog at all these pbers who are apparently comfortable with incest being legalised.

    I presume you are referring to the sex between consenting adults. Did not even think of incest in that context. But how often would incest actually meet both the consenting and adult qualifications in the question?
  • rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So what's Trump going to pull out of first

    1) NATO
    2) The UN
    3) The WTO

    If anyone says Melania or Russian Hookers, PB threads will be exclusively on AV for the next six months.

    The IMF
    An interesting idea: however, I think they probably won't. Why? Because right now the US is the only country with a veto on IMF decisions. They are the only person people seeking an IMF loan absolutely and definitively have to suck up to.

    If the US left the IMF, then that power would go to either the EU (which for all its faults is a massive creditor to the world) or China (which would love to step into that spot).
    What odds on US vetoing IMF help for Greece
    Very high. Trump has already made it clear that this is a problem for the EZ, not the IMF and I don't think he will find too many in the IMF itself disagreeing with him. Their arms were twisted out of their sockets the last time.
    All that being said...

    The IMF isn't going to call in old loans (they can't unilaterally change the conditions of loans already issued), they can merely say they will not participate in roll-overs of debt, or any new bail out.

    The sum that is due in the middle of the year, while large for Greece, is only about €4bn. This compares to the Eurozone's trade deficit in 2016 (just for reference, the two aren't really connected) of more than €250bn.

    The only real question about the IMF not participating is whether that causes Germany to say "no" to the Eurozone putting its hands in its pockets. Here it's a much more difficult question: the CDU is stuck between the AfD (who say "no way!") and the SPD (who say "more Europe!"). A collapse in Greece would probably not be good for (a) helping stem the flow of migrants, and (b) the vote share of the CDU, who'd be blamed by people on both sides. For this reason, I suspect we'll see a fudge, where holders of July debt are effectively "bought off" with a voluntary two year extension (maybe using some of the ECB's big profits on Irish debt).
    Given that (as with so many other EU issues these days) it's all dominated by German domestic politics, isn't the ideal outcome for Merkel that there's some kind of messy fudge in July, with the CDU insisting that the Greeks make more sacrifices and the SPD having to argue for leniency in the name of good Europeanism, which extends maturity for a few months until after the German elections are over (at which point it can all be swept under the carpet again)?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769

    I'm agog at all these pbers who are apparently comfortable with incest being legalised.

    I instantly thought of all sorts of exceptions to the economic ones too - for instance on free trade.

    In theory its a nice idea, but !

    Free trade for animal products from places with zero standards ?
    It'd be a good way to unite vegans and dairy farmers...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So what's Trump going to pull out of first

    1) NATO
    2) The UN
    3) The WTO

    If anyone says Melania or Russian Hookers, PB threads will be exclusively on AV for the next six months.

    The IMF
    An interesting idea: however, I think they probably won't. Why? Because right now the US is the only country with a veto on IMF decisions. They are the only person people seeking an IMF loan absolutely and definitively have to suck up to.

    If the US left the IMF, then that power would go to either the EU (which for all its faults is a massive creditor to the world) or China (which would love to step into that spot).
    What odds on US vetoing IMF help for Greece
    Very high. Trump has already made it clear that this is a problem for the EZ, not the IMF and I don't think he will find too many in the IMF itself disagreeing with him. Their arms were twisted out of their sockets the last time.
    All that being said...

    The IMF isn't going to call in old loans (they can't unilaterally change the conditions of loans already issued), they can merely say they will not participate in roll-overs of debt, or any new bail out.

    The sum that is due in the middle of the year, while large for Greece, is only about €4bn. This compares to the Eurozone's trade deficit in 2016 (just for reference, the two aren't really connected) of more than €250bn.

    The only real question about the IMF not participating is whether that causes Germany to say "no" to the Eurozone putting its hands in its pockets. Here it's a much more difficult question: the CDU is stuck between the AfD (who say "no way!") and the SPD (who say "more Europe!"). A collapse in Greece would probably not be good for (a) helping stem the flow of migrants, and (b) the vote share of the CDU, who'd be blamed by people on both sides. For this reason, I suspect we'll see a fudge, where holders of July debt are effectively "bought off" with a voluntary two year extension (maybe using some of the ECB's big profits on Irish debt).
    There is no question that the EZ can and will handle it. I just don't see the IMF either wanting or being permitted to play any more.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    I hesitate to label myself an actual libertarian whilst I believe the NHS is actually quite a good thing too !
  • I'm agog at all these pbers who are apparently comfortable with incest being legalised.

    As long as it's between consenting adults, is it necessarily worse than (for instance) extreme sadomasochism?
  • @Pulpstar Be afraid. My result in the more detailed test was on exactly the same spot as yours.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    edited February 2017
    Economic Left/Right: 8.88
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.15
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654

    Mr. L, so... let's say it's vetoed. It might not have helped Greece anyway, but the EU will get to blame the Orange One.

    What happens to Greece?

    It gets rolled over by the EZ. Brexit will help them a lot. The last thing the EZ will want is more instability at the moment.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,217
    Would he settle for 'crap actor' instead ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769

    @Pulpstar Be afraid. My result in the more detailed test was on exactly the same spot as yours.

    Actually it wasn't quite that far down:

    Economic Left/Right: 0.25
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.44
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    MTimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    Immediately before the last GE Mori forecast the UK Left triumvirate of Lib/Lab/Green would poll 48. They polled 43. An overstatement of five.

    They forecast a Remain vote of 55. Remain polled 48. An overstatement of seven.

    Even in today's poll they think that Con/UKIP are on 49 - which means the right have theoretically lost votes since 2015, Corbyn's appointment and the referendum. That defies logic.

    By contrast:

    Com Res 52
    ICM 54
    Yougov 54
    Opinium 51


    In what way is UKIP right wing?
    In the way that they are commonly described as right wing.
    I find left-right to be quite a lazy way of thinking, I prefer authoritarian-libertarian, and I think they come out on the authoritarian (i.e. left wing) end of the scale.
    Is this trolling? Traditionally authoritarianism is seen as orthogonal to the left-right axis, so there are left and right wing authoritarians.
    You need the second axis for this to make sense. So Authoritarian-egalitarian on one axis, and collectivist-libertarian on the other. Unless that is what you were meaning, Robert.
    Here - have some fun with the world's smallest political quiz .....

    https://www.libertarianism.com/Quiz
    "Your PERSONAL issues Score is 90%

    Your ECONOMICS issues Score is 40%

    According to your answers, the political group that agrees with you most is...

    LEFT (LIBERAL)"

    Surely some mistake - I thought I was a Red BNP Knuckledragger....
    Even more alarming, that is exactly the scores I got.
    Welcome to the Labour Party!
    NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
    Well, you've worn the badges..
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,121
    edited February 2017
    I come out as Left Liberal - But very close to center

    Your Political Compass

    Economic Left/Right: -2.88
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.1

    Does that mean I'm no long a #pbtory ? :smiley:
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    MTimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    Immediately before the last GE Mori forecast the UK Left triumvirate of Lib/Lab/Green would poll 48. They polled 43. An overstatement of five.

    They forecast a Remain vote of 55. Remain polled 48. An overstatement of seven.

    Even in today's poll they think that Con/UKIP are on 49 - which means the right have theoretically lost votes since 2015, Corbyn's appointment and the referendum. That defies logic.

    By contrast:

    Com Res 52
    ICM 54
    Yougov 54
    Opinium 51


    In what way is UKIP right wing?
    In the way that they are commonly described as right wing.
    I find left-right to be quite a lazy way of thinking, I prefer authoritarian-libertarian, and I think they come out on the authoritarian (i.e. left wing) end of the scale.
    Is this trolling? Traditionally authoritarianism is seen as orthogonal to the left-right axis, so there are left and right wing authoritarians.
    You need the second axis for this to make sense. So Authoritarian-egalitarian on one axis, and collectivist-libertarian on the other. Unless that is what you were meaning, Robert.
    Here - have some fun with the world's smallest political quiz .....

    https://www.libertarianism.com/Quiz
    "Your PERSONAL issues Score is 90%

    Your ECONOMICS issues Score is 40%

    According to your answers, the political group that agrees with you most is...

    LEFT (LIBERAL)"

    Surely some mistake - I thought I was a Red BNP Knuckledragger....
    Even more alarming, that is exactly the scores I got.
    Welcome to the Labour Party!
    NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
    Well, you've worn the badges..
    Oh, that's cruel.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Pulpstar said:

    I'm agog at all these pbers who are apparently comfortable with incest being legalised.

    I instantly thought of all sorts of exceptions to the economic ones too - for instance on free trade.

    In theory its a nice idea, but !

    Free trade for animal products from places with zero standards ?
    It'd be a good way to unite vegans and dairy farmers...
    Indeed. That is the problem with these quizzes. If you think about the questions, none of the answers fits. So you have to go with the best fit, or with your unvarnished immediate gut reaction.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    GeoffM said:

    Economic Left/Right: 8.88
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.15

    image

    Reassuring, you'd have to assume the test is definitely broken if @GeoffM came out as a lefty or some such.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Pulpstar said:

    GeoffM said:

    Economic Left/Right: 8.88
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.15

    image

    Reassuring, you'd have to assume the test is definitely broken if @GeoffM came out as a lefty or some such.
    Surprised it had me as a centrist on economic issues. I always self-identify as quite right-wing on those issues.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Pulpstar said:

    GeoffM said:

    Economic Left/Right: 8.88
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.15

    image

    Reassuring, you'd have to assume the test is definitely broken if @GeoffM came out as a lefty or some such.
    I've mellowed since I last took this a few years ago. Got a perfect 10 for Economics then.

    Going pinko in my old age, obviously.
  • Animal_pb said:

    I'm agog at all these pbers who are apparently comfortable with incest being legalised.

    As long as it's between consenting adults, is it necessarily worse than (for instance) extreme sadomasochism?
    For any offspring it produces absolutely!
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    image

    From this it looks like there were roughly the same total number of university degrees awarded from 44-94 as there were from 94-04. And the number per year has increased by around a third since then.
  • MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GeoffM said:

    Economic Left/Right: 8.88
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.15

    image

    Reassuring, you'd have to assume the test is definitely broken if @GeoffM came out as a lefty or some such.
    Surprised it had me as a centrist on economic issues. I always self-identify as quite right-wing on those issues.
    I'm not convinced on the scoring. I came out as 6.63 Economic and -1.28 Social; basically Milton Friedman. I usually score much higher (more negative, therefore) on the social libertarian axis.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769

    I'm agog at all these pbers who are apparently comfortable with incest being legalised.

    Eh???
    I think incest has to be illegal where there is the remotest chance of any pregnancy occurring, due to the potential harm to a potential child.
    Is it the states' job to get involved past that point though if both adults are consenting (And the probability of pregnancy is absolutely zero) ?
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    So what's Trump going to pull out of first

    1) NATO
    2) The UN
    3) The WTO

    If anyone says Melania or Russian Hookers, PB threads will be exclusively on AV for the next six months.

    Whatever he's grabbed recently?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769

    Animal_pb said:

    I'm agog at all these pbers who are apparently comfortable with incest being legalised.

    As long as it's between consenting adults, is it necessarily worse than (for instance) extreme sadomasochism?
    For any offspring it produces absolutely!
    What about if there is no possibility of any offspring though ?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,121
    edited February 2017
    Pulpstar said:

    GeoffM said:

    Economic Left/Right: 8.88
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.15

    image

    Reassuring, you'd have to assume the test is definitely broken if @GeoffM came out as a lefty or some such.
    Thing is it's hard to categerize people.

    I'm very much a liberal on social issues, I'm more right wing on economic issues but I don't think mutli nationals should be given carte blanch to do whatever they want. I think we need sensible levels of taxation but rich people should make a contribution to society. Voted for Brexit but I'm relaxed about immigration, etc.

    I think it's very difficult to pigeon hole people and increasingly so... Which of course is why politics so volatile at the moment and presumably is part of the reason pollsters are having such a bad time? People no longer break left/right like they did but judge issues on their merits and often take very contradictory positions.
  • Animal_pb said:

    I'm agog at all these pbers who are apparently comfortable with incest being legalised.

    As long as it's between consenting adults, is it necessarily worse than (for instance) extreme sadomasochism?
    For any offspring it produces absolutely!
    I start from the assumption that these activities are recreational, rather than procreational, in intent. And, yes, I have no objection to contraception or the morning after pill.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    Christ it must be time to go home and put another baby on the Barbie

    Your Political Compass

    Economic Left/Right: -2.63
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.36

    I'm going soft in my old age.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    It seems I should have voted for the SDLP or Plaid which is a bit difficult in Epping Forest.

    -1.13 and -1.13 - almost a bullseye.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,179
    rcs1000 said:

    The only real question about the IMF not participating is whether that causes Germany to say "no" to the Eurozone putting its hands in its pockets. Here it's a much more difficult question: the CDU is stuck between the AfD (who say "no way!") and the SPD (who say "more Europe!").

    Is the modern incarnation of the AfD even that bothered about the details of this question? If it could be packaged up as a way to fund a 'fortress Europe' hard external border it may even go down well with them, or at least with their supporters.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Animal_pb said:

    I'm agog at all these pbers who are apparently comfortable with incest being legalised.

    As long as it's between consenting adults, is it necessarily worse than (for instance) extreme sadomasochism?
    For any offspring it produces absolutely!
    What about if there is no possibility of any offspring though ?
    How frequently is that the case?

    Birth control fails and even the infertile can have "miracle babies". Virtually only non-heterosexual [or equivalent] incest would pass that test.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Economic Left/Right: -4.13
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.51


  • Animal_pb said:

    Animal_pb said:

    I'm agog at all these pbers who are apparently comfortable with incest being legalised.

    As long as it's between consenting adults, is it necessarily worse than (for instance) extreme sadomasochism?
    For any offspring it produces absolutely!
    I start from the assumption that these activities are recreational, rather than procreational, in intent. And, yes, I have no objection to contraception or the morning after pill.
    Both of which can fail.
  • You Got: 26% sexist!

    Careful – you're in real danger of sexism! Think before you speak! And think before you think. Just think more. 'Cause sexism is bad.
  • Animal_pb said:

    Animal_pb said:

    I'm agog at all these pbers who are apparently comfortable with incest being legalised.

    As long as it's between consenting adults, is it necessarily worse than (for instance) extreme sadomasochism?
    For any offspring it produces absolutely!
    I start from the assumption that these activities are recreational, rather than procreational, in intent. And, yes, I have no objection to contraception or the morning after pill.
    Also, you seem to be assuming that incest is only a hetero phenomenon, you bigot. :)
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,843
    I got

    Economic Left/Right: -7.5
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.9

    I did this test several years ago and it seems I have gotten less libertarian and more economically left since.

    It would be interesting to have a poll or something on PB to see what the actual political makeup of the posters on this site is - seeing as there is so much debate BTL about whether it is broadly left/right/far right etc
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    MTimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    Immediately before the last GE Mori forecast the UK Left triumvirate of Lib/Lab/Green would poll 48. They polled 43. An overstatement of five.

    They forecast a Remain vote of 55. Remain polled 48. An overstatement of seven.

    Even in today's poll they think that Con/UKIP are on 49 - which means the right have theoretically lost votes since 2015, Corbyn's appointment and the referendum. That defies logic.

    By contrast:

    Com Res 52
    ICM 54
    Yougov 54
    Opinium 51


    In what way is UKIP right wing?
    In the way that they are commonly described as right wing.
    I find left-right to be quite a lazy way of thinking, I prefer authoritarian-libertarian, and I think they come out on the authoritarian (i.e. left wing) end of the scale.
    Is this trolling? Traditionally authoritarianism is seen as orthogonal to the left-right axis, so there are left and right wing authoritarians.
    You need the second axis for this to make sense. So Authoritarian-egalitarian on one axis, and collectivist-libertarian on the other. Unless that is what you were meaning, Robert.
    Here - have some fun with the world's smallest political quiz .....

    https://www.libertarianism.com/Quiz
    "Your PERSONAL issues Score is 90%

    Your ECONOMICS issues Score is 40%

    According to your answers, the political group that agrees with you most is...

    LEFT (LIBERAL)"

    Surely some mistake - I thought I was a Red BNP Knuckledragger....
    Even more alarming, that is exactly the scores I got.
    Welcome to the Labour Party!
    NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
    Well, you've worn the badges..
    Oh, that's cruel.
    Since I'm feeling a bit sadistic tonight, not just Lab but SLab.. :)
This discussion has been closed.