politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Corbyn’s corrosion is to Labour’s habits as much as to its pol
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There are a couple of vampire squid "wealth manager" mega companies who have pretty much hoovered up all the old small independent stockbrokers.David_Evershed said:
Cobham is exclusively F1 drivers and stockbrokers.rcs1000 said:
Do any stockbrokers live in Cobham? Do stockbrokers in the old sense really exist anymore?Dromedary said:
Agreed with all of that, except if there are any EU-loving parts of the stockbroker belt where people love the EU they must be very small. There weren't many Remain posters in places like Cobham.Sean_F said:I don't know anyone, outside of here who loves the EU. I know people who don't think it's a bad idea, or that, on balance, we're probably better off in it. But never love.
In Inner London, university cities, centres of government like Cardiff and Edinburgh, parts of the Stockbroker Belt, there are people who love the EU. And, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish Nationalist take the view that my enemy's enemy is my friend.
Stockbrokers still exist in the old sense although they may call themselves private bankers nowadays.0 -
If it was the UK we'd have had wall to wall "May sucking up to Trump" posts.williamglenn said:The German press are reporting that Germany will place a €1.5bn order for transport planes from the US. Money talks...
But it's Merkel - so silence.
Curious.
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Yup.MaxPB said:
Indeed, as a fairly working class Tory member I've never experienced what he describes the party as. In fact I've been asked to run as a councillor many times, I'm guessing either despite my modest background or maybe because of it.Mortimer said:
You really don't understand Conservatism, do you.Dromedary said:Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
The Tories are deeply divided, putting on a show of unity, a lot of their voters and members and some of their leaders have a lot of respect for another party, and their leader seems to be sailing by the seat of her pants, spouting slogans such as "Red White and Blue Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Lead the World Again" - in the absence of any clear policy on who on earth they want this country to throw in its lot with.
The Tories' strength is that however much they hate each other they are united by class hatred, which is a large part of what their class identity rests on, and even when they are knifing each other in the back, which they so dearly enjoy, they retain a degree of unity that the leadership of the Labour party doesn't.
I mean who does the Labour party represent? You could say the working class, but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it, do they? Social workers? Maybe all the administrators in the country who didn't go to private school and who would feel bad about poison-gassing the council estates.
What I find is that the Tories like people who grab opportunities and loathe people who blame others for their own failures.0 -
At least in Britain, conservative Muslim women who want to wear niqabs or burqas will continue to be free to do so.foxinsoxuk said:
At least he didn't make her wear a burka....Theuniondivvie said:You can almost smell the chemistry..
https://twitter.com/Queen_Europe/status/825306104645222400
Unlike in Germany, where the lovely Mrs Merkel wants them banned by law.0 -
Agreed - though not sure loathe is the right word. Have little time for, perhaps...MaxPB said:
Indeed, as a fairly working class Tory member I've never experienced what he describes the party as. In fact I've been asked to run as a councillor many times, I'm guessing either despite my modest background or maybe because of it.Mortimer said:
You really don't understand Conservatism, do you.Dromedary said:Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
The Tories are deeply divided, putting on a show of unity, a lot of their voters and members and some of their leaders have a lot of respect for another party, and their leader seems to be sailing by the seat of her pants, spouting slogans such as "Red White and Blue Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Lead the World Again" - in the absence of any clear policy on who on earth they want this country to throw in its lot with.
The Tories' strength is that however much they hate each other they are united by class hatred, which is a large part of what their class identity rests on, and even when they are knifing each other in the back, which they so dearly enjoy, they retain a degree of unity that the leadership of the Labour party doesn't.
I mean who does the Labour party represent? You could say the working class, but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it, do they? Social workers? Maybe all the administrators in the country who didn't go to private school and who would feel bad about poison-gassing the council estates.
What I find is that the Tories like people who grab opportunities and loathe people who blame others for their own failures.0 -
Surrey was pretty evenly divided. Ditto Hertfordshire. St. Alban's and North Herts voted Remain. WRT Hertsmere, I imagine Radlett, Bushey Heath, Elstree voted heavily Remain, Bushey North, Potters Bar, Borehamwood heavily Leave.rcs1000 said:
Do any stockbrokers live in Cobham? Do stockbrokers in the old sense really exist anymore?Dromedary said:
Agreed with all of that, except if there are any EU-loving parts of the stockbroker belt where people love the EU they must be very small. There weren't many Remain posters in places like Cobham.Sean_F said:I don't know anyone, outside of here who loves the EU. I know people who don't think it's a bad idea, or that, on balance, we're probably better off in it. But never love.
In Inner London, university cities, centres of government like Cardiff and Edinburgh, parts of the Stockbroker Belt, there are people who love the EU. And, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish Nationalist take the view that my enemy's enemy is my friend.0 -
Aren't they already banned in France?Black_Rook said:
At least in Britain, conservative Muslim women who want to wear niqabs or burqas will continue to be free to do so.foxinsoxuk said:
At least he didn't make her wear a burka....Theuniondivvie said:You can almost smell the chemistry..
https://twitter.com/Queen_Europe/status/825306104645222400
Unlike in Germany, where the lovely Mrs Merkel wants them banned by law.0 -
If it does come to gassing the proles (and I have an open mind on this one) can the tories co-opt Emily Thornberry as Chief WWCfinder General?BannedInParis said:
Paragraph ends with a question to which the answer is no, and then it really goes down the rabbit hole.Dromedary said:Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
The Tories are deeply divided, putting on a show of unity, a lot of their voters and members and some of their leaders have a lot of respect for another party, and their leader seems to be sailing by the seat of her pants, spouting slogans such as "Red White and Blue Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Lead the World Again" - in the absence of any clear policy on who on earth they want this country to throw in its lot with.
The Tories' strength is that however much they hate each other they are united by class hatred, which is a large part of what their class identity rests on, and even when they are knifing each other in the back, which they so dearly enjoy, they retain a degree of unity that the leadership of the Labour party doesn't.
I mean who does the Labour party represent? You could say the working class, but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it, do they? Social workers? Maybe all the administrators in the country who didn't go to private school and who would feel bad about poison-gassing the council estates.
Last line, can we frame that one for posterity?0 -
Yes, that's probably better for the party in general, but loathe is right for my personal view. As someone who grew up on an estate and is considered to be a minority, working hard was the only way to be successful. Those who did so escaped the nightmare of the estate, those who didn't blamed society for their problems. The former invariable vote Tory, the latter vote Labour.Mortimer said:
Agreed - though not sure loathe is the right word. Have little time for, perhaps...MaxPB said:
Indeed, as a fairly working class Tory member I've never experienced what he describes the party as. In fact I've been asked to run as a councillor many times, I'm guessing either despite my modest background or maybe because of it.Mortimer said:
You really don't understand Conservatism, do you.Dromedary said:Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
The Tories are deeply divided, putting on a show of unity, a lot of their voters and members and some of their leaders have a lot of respect for another party, and their leader seems to be sailing by the seat of her pants, spouting slogans such as "Red White and Blue Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Lead the World Again" - in the absence of any clear policy on who on earth they want this country to throw in its lot with.
The Tories' strength is that however much they hate each other they are united by class hatred, which is a large part of what their class identity rests on, and even when they are knifing each other in the back, which they so dearly enjoy, they retain a degree of unity that the leadership of the Labour party doesn't.
I mean who does the Labour party represent? You could say the working class, but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it, do they? Social workers? Maybe all the administrators in the country who didn't go to private school and who would feel bad about poison-gassing the council estates.
What I find is that the Tories like people who grab opportunities and loathe people who blame others for their own failures.0 -
I occasionally encountered people in the Conservative Party who made loathsome comments about the lower classes, but it was rare.Mortimer said:
You really don't understand Conservatism, do you.Dromedary said:Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
The Tories are deeply divided, putting on a show of unity, a lot of their voters and members and some of their leaders have a lot of respect for another party, and their leader seems to be sailing by the seat of her pants, spouting slogans such as "Red White and Blue Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Lead the World Again" - in the absence of any clear policy on who on earth they want this country to throw in its lot with.
The Tories' strength is that however much they hate each other they are united by class hatred, which is a large part of what their class identity rests on, and even when they are knifing each other in the back, which they so dearly enjoy, they retain a degree of unity that the leadership of the Labour party doesn't.
I mean who does the Labour party represent? You could say the working class, but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it, do they? Social workers? Maybe all the administrators in the country who didn't go to private school and who would feel bad about poison-gassing the council estates.0 -
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I guess my point is that in the old days, City workers lived in places like Cobham and commuted in every day.Sean_F said:
Surrey was pretty evenly divided. Ditto Hertfordshire. St. Alban's and North Herts voted Remain. WRT Hertsmere, I imagine Radlett, Bushey Heath, Elstree voted heavily Remain, Bushey North, Potters Bar, Borehamwood heavily Leave.rcs1000 said:
Do any stockbrokers live in Cobham? Do stockbrokers in the old sense really exist anymore?Dromedary said:
Agreed with all of that, except if there are any EU-loving parts of the stockbroker belt where people love the EU they must be very small. There weren't many Remain posters in places like Cobham.Sean_F said:I don't know anyone, outside of here who loves the EU. I know people who don't think it's a bad idea, or that, on balance, we're probably better off in it. But never love.
In Inner London, university cities, centres of government like Cardiff and Edinburgh, parts of the Stockbroker Belt, there are people who love the EU. And, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish Nationalist take the view that my enemy's enemy is my friend.
That doesn't happen so much any more. If you work for any of the big City firms, then in all likelihood you're at your desk by 7am. If you're at somewhere like Goldman Sachs, it'll be more like 6am.
That doesn't mean that there aren't lots of people that commute into London every day from these places, just that the finance types (who are now deeply stressed 32 year olds who vaguely remember what their girlfriends look like), are now more likely to be coming in from Wandsworth or anywhere where you can get an Uber at 6:22am, and be at work in 20 minutes.0 -
Oops. I've now recovered from my opium dream about Britain being dominated by considerations of class. Here is the corrected version.PlatoSaid said:
What are you smoking?Dromedary said:Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
The Tories are deeply divided, putting on a show of unity, a lot of their voters and members and some of their leaders have a lot of respect for another party, and their leader seems to be sailing by the seat of her pants, spouting slogans such as "Red White and Blue Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Lead the World Again" - in the absence of any clear policy on who on earth they want this country to throw in its lot with.
The Tories' strength is that however much they hate each other they are united by class hatred, which is a large part of what their class identity rests on, and even when they are knifing each other in the back, which they so dearly enjoy, they retain a degree of unity that the leadership of the Labour party doesn't.
I mean who does the Labour party represent? You could say the working class, but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it, do they? Social workers? Maybe all the administrators in the country who didn't go to private school and who would feel bad about poison-gassing the council estates.The Tories are tightly united, only putting on a show of division as a joke. None of their voters, members or supporters have any respect for UKIP. Their leader has great competence and vision, as illustrated by the profound principles to which she has declared her allegiance: "Union Jack Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Show Those Foreign Mofos Where It's At, Just Like We Did in er..." The party also benefits from a very clear foreign and trading policy.
Happy now?
The Tories' weakness is that however much they love each other and never stab each other in the back, not even when choosing a parliamentary candidate or leader, they are divided by their attitude towards the working class. Most consider the "proles" to be the "salt of the Earth", "far finer in every way than the privately-educated types who consider themselves to be so entitled", in the words of a recent Carlton Club report. But a small yet so far ineradicable minority wishes to impose compulsory tuberculosis on single mothers and to kidnap any surviving prole-brats for use as domestic servants. What attitude true Tories should take towards those who eat peas off their knives and who shop in Aldi, Lidl and Primark - to love them or despise them? - is always a bone of great contention at any Tory gathering, especially in the stockbroker belt.0 -
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We should certainly praise people who rise out of poverty due to hard work, and condemn the work shy, but there is a category of people who really do endure rotten circumstances and rotten luck.MaxPB said:
Yes, that's probably better for the party in general, but loathe is right for my personal view. As someone who grew up on an estate and is considered to be a minority, working hard was the only way to be successful. Those who did so escaped the nightmare of the estate, those who didn't blamed society for their problems. The former invariable vote Tory, the latter vote Labour.Mortimer said:
Agreed - though not sure loathe is the right word. Have little time for, perhaps...MaxPB said:
Indeed, as a fairly working class Tory member I've never experienced what he describes the party as. In fact I've been asked to run as a councillor many times, I'm guessing either despite my modest background or maybe because of it.Mortimer said:
You really don't understand Conservatism, do you.Dromedary said:Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
The Tories are deeply divided, putting on a show of unity, a lot of their voters and members and some of their leaders have a lot of respect for another party, and their leader seems to be sailing by the seat of her pants, spouting slogans such as "Red White and Blue Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Lead the World Again" - in the absence of any clear policy on who on earth they want this country to throw in its lot with.
The Tories' strength is that however much they hate each other they are united by class hatred, which is a large part of what their class identity rests on, and even when they are knifing each other in the back, which they so dearly enjoy, they retain a degree of unity that the leadership of the Labour party doesn't.
I mean who does the Labour party represent? You could say the working class, but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it, do they? Social workers? Maybe all the administrators in the country who didn't go to private school and who would feel bad about poison-gassing the council estates.
What I find is that the Tories like people who grab opportunities and loathe people who blame others for their own failures.0 -
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.williamglenn said:
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?rcs1000 said:I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.0 -
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Usually it was West Hampstead, St John's Wood and more recently Hornsey for those who were coming into Moorgate.rcs1000 said:
I guess my point is that in the old days, City workers lived in places like Cobham and commuted in every day.Sean_F said:
Surrey was pretty evenly divided. Ditto Hertfordshire. St. Alban's and North Herts voted Remain. WRT Hertsmere, I imagine Radlett, Bushey Heath, Elstree voted heavily Remain, Bushey North, Potters Bar, Borehamwood heavily Leave.rcs1000 said:
Do any stockbrokers live in Cobham? Do stockbrokers in the old sense really exist anymore?Dromedary said:
Agreed with all of that, except if there are any EU-loving parts of the stockbroker belt where people love the EU they must be very small. There weren't many Remain posters in places like Cobham.Sean_F said:I don't know anyone, outside of here who loves the EU. I know people who don't think it's a bad idea, or that, on balance, we're probably better off in it. But never love.
In Inner London, university cities, centres of government like Cardiff and Edinburgh, parts of the Stockbroker Belt, there are people who love the EU. And, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish Nationalist take the view that my enemy's enemy is my friend.
That doesn't happen so much any more. If you work for any of the big City firms, then in all likelihood you're at your desk by 7am. If you're at somewhere like Goldman Sachs, it'll be more like 6am.
That doesn't mean that there aren't lots of people that commute into London every day from these places, just that the finance types (who are now deeply stressed 32 year olds who vaguely remember what their girlfriends look like), are now more likely to be coming in from Wandsworth or anywhere where you can get an Uber at 6:22am, and be at work in 20 minutes.0 -
Anecdotally it already does. There are reports of green card holders being refused entryJosiasJessop said:Apparently the ban *may* include those with green cards and H1B visas.
Insanity.0 -
The Labour party represents public sector workers.Dromedary said:Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
I mean who does the Labour party represent? You could say the working class, but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it, do they? Social workers? Maybe all the administrators in the country who didn't go to private school and who would feel bad about poison-gassing the council estates.
Not sure there are many in Copeland (maybe Sellafield?) or Stoke?0 -
That's under a general law that bans face coverings (e.g. motorcycle helmets) in general.CarlottaVance said:
Aren't they already banned in France?Black_Rook said:
At least in Britain, conservative Muslim women who want to wear niqabs or burqas will continue to be free to do so.foxinsoxuk said:
At least he didn't make her wear a burka....Theuniondivvie said:You can almost smell the chemistry..
https://twitter.com/Queen_Europe/status/825306104645222400
Unlike in Germany, where the lovely Mrs Merkel wants them banned by law.0 -
Who would want to live like that? The point of having money is to enjoy it. (I speak as someone who is comfortable, rather than rich).rcs1000 said:
I guess my point is that in the old days, City workers lived in places like Cobham and commuted in every day.Sean_F said:
Surrey was pretty evenly divided. Ditto Hertfordshire. St. Alban's and North Herts voted Remain. WRT Hertsmere, I imagine Radlett, Bushey Heath, Elstree voted heavily Remain, Bushey North, Potters Bar, Borehamwood heavily Leave.rcs1000 said:
Do any stockbrokers live in Cobham? Do stockbrokers in the old sense really exist anymore?Dromedary said:
Agreed with all of that, except if there are any EU-loving parts of the stockbroker belt where people love the EU they must be very small. There weren't many Remain posters in places like Cobham.Sean_F said:I don't know anyone, outside of here who loves the EU. I know people who don't think it's a bad idea, or that, on balance, we're probably better off in it. But never love.
In Inner London, university cities, centres of government like Cardiff and Edinburgh, parts of the Stockbroker Belt, there are people who love the EU. And, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish Nationalist take the view that my enemy's enemy is my friend.
That doesn't happen so much any more. If you work for any of the big City firms, then in all likelihood you're at your desk by 7am. If you're at somewhere like Goldman Sachs, it'll be more like 6am.
That doesn't mean that there aren't lots of people that commute into London every day from these places, just that the finance types (who are now deeply stressed 32 year olds who vaguely remember what their girlfriends look like), are now more likely to be coming in from Wandsworth or anywhere where you can get an Uber at 6:22am, and be at work in 20 minutes.0 -
Wouldn't people that really believed in it that much be happy to go and live in an EU country when we leave?rcs1000 said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.williamglenn said:
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?rcs1000 said:I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.0 -
This may come across as personal... But I don't mean it in that way.MaxPB said:
Indeed, as a fairly working class Tory member I've never experienced what he describes the party as. In fact I've been asked to run as a councillor many times, I'm guessing either despite my modest background or maybe because of it.Mortimer said:
You really don't understand Conservatism, do you.Dromedary said:Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
The Tories are deeply divided, putting on a show of unity, a lot of their voters and members and some of their leaders have a lot of respect for another party, and their leader seems to be sailing by the seat of her pants, spouting slogans such as "Red White and Blue Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Lead the World Again" - in the absence of any clear policy on who on earth they want this country to throw in its lot with.
The Tories' strength is that however much they hate each other they are united by class hatred, which is a large part of what their class identity rests on, and even when they are knifing each other in the back, which they so dearly enjoy, they retain a degree of unity that the leadership of the Labour party doesn't.
I mean who does the Labour party represent? You could say the working class, but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it, do they? Social workers? Maybe all the administrators in the country who didn't go to private school and who would feel bad about poison-gassing the council estates.
What I find is that the Tories like people who grab opportunities and loathe people who blame others for their own failures.
At what point do you stop (or start) being working class?
From previous posts you work in finance/something similar as an expat in Switzerland and flew first class to Fiji on holiday?
In the US everyone thinks they are middle class. But in the UK i feel as though everyone wants to be working class/wants to say they came from a poor background.0 -
I think we can satisfy 70%, but not the group you mention.rcs1000 said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.williamglenn said:
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?rcs1000 said:I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.0 -
WT is very different (and a lot less credible) than WaPo. It is owned by the Moonies and has a very right wing outlook.ThreeQuidder said:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jan/25/president-trumps-approval-rating-rises-57-percent/Big_G_NorthWales said:
It was published yesterday I think by the Washington Post and links were provided by several postersSouthamObserver said:
Hmm ... 36% here: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/01/27/politics/trump-approval-rating-quinnipiac-poll/index.htmlBig_G_NorthWales said:
You do know his rating has jumped to 59% the same as Obama in the same poll after his electionCicero said:Been a while since I have commented, though I do still lurk.
I see a failure of imagination here across the board as to how radical change could emerge in the UK.
To be honest I think the Cheerleaders for May have got it stunningly wrong. Trump is the most unpopular President in America since these things started to be recorded. In the UK he is more or less despised across the political spectrum. May's hurried and supplicatory visit looks awful. Meanwhile the unspoken assumption that the EU will simply collapse and go away is looking pretty unsupported by the facts too. So in three years time, with Trump checkmated by Congress and the EU past the worst, the Hard Brexit policy could well be going to look like a dogs breakfast for a friendless UK.
Keir Starmer is the only grown up on the Labour front bench at the moment, and even he is making significant mistakes... More important than whether Labour hold the by-election seats is what happens in the locals in May. The big news may not be a Labour rout but the return of the Lib Dems. Then the political momentum could turn strongly into a Remain/Return narrative.
People are pretty dismissive of Corbyn, but they do not love Mrs May either. So it seems to me that we could absolutely see the long heralded political realignment actually happen. Those who laughed at the surge for Nick Clegg in 2010 - especially when it didn't happen-may find that Farron goes on to higher things- the electorate are pretty volatile and increasingly pissed off- the Lib Dems are getting points even among soft leavers for sticking to their European guns, and if May's gamble on Trumpistan turns out to be a failure, then vast change could happen very quickly.
Plus the poll is Rasmussen...0 -
What a nice fellow:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jan/27/thug-who-pushed-polish-man-onto-tube-tracks-jailed-for-10-years
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38775661
The victim was very, very lucky to be wearing shoes with rubber soles.0 -
I have a lot less sympathy for my cosseted colleagues and peers than I do for someone who has seen their income stagnate or their jobs move to Eastern Europe. We've been living consequence free from EU membership for the last 10 years. In fact the huge migration has helped keep the cost of services down, my coffee from Pret every morning cost just £2.10, without mass migration that would not be possible.rcs1000 said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.williamglenn said:
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?rcs1000 said:I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
As a class, bankers and financial workers are fairly mobile. Steelworkers from Scunthorpe or Port Talbot aren't.0 -
Can that be legal?Scott_P said:
Anecdotally it already does. There are reports of green card holders being refused entryJosiasJessop said:Apparently the ban *may* include those with green cards and H1B visas.
Insanity.
Can a president really overturn something like that so easily?0 -
rcs1000 said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.williamglenn said:
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?rcs1000 said:I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t …… please all the people all of the time” (Poet John Lydgate as made famous by Abraham Lincoln - and Bob Dylan).
0 -
Traitors.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/28/labour-mps-commons-motion-article-50-bill-heidi-alexander
I'm gonna go all SeanT overboard but I want them locked up before the vote.0 -
I stopped being working class when I walked through the doors of my school for the first time, I think. At least that's when the idea of class seemed to not matter, if it ever did. The expectations from the school were the same for everyone, regardless of background or class. It's why I'm so annoyed with our education system and its low expectations culture.rkrkrk said:
This may come across as personal... But I don't mean it in that way.MaxPB said:
Indeed, as a fairly working class Tory member I've never experienced what he describes the party as. In fact I've been asked to run as a councillor many times, I'm guessing either despite my modest background or maybe because of it.Mortimer said:
You really don't understand Conservatism, do you.Dromedary said:Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
The Tories are deeply divided, putting on a show of unity, a lot of their voters and members and some of their leaders have a lot of respect for another party, and their leader seems to be sailing by the seat of her pants, spouting slogans such as "Red White and Blue Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Lead the World Again" - in the absence of any clear policy on who on earth they want this country to throw in its lot with.
The Tories' strength is that however much they hate each other they are united by class hatred, which is a large part of what their class identity rests on, and even when they are knifing each other in the back, which they so dearly enjoy, they retain a degree of unity that the leadership of the Labour party doesn't.
I mean who does the Labour party represent? You could say the working class, but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it, do they? Social workers? Maybe all the administrators in the country who didn't go to private school and who would feel bad about poison-gassing the council estates.
What I find is that the Tories like people who grab opportunities and loathe people who blame others for their own failures.
At what point do you stop (or start) being working class?
From previous posts you work in finance/something similar as an expat in Switzerland and flew first class to Fiji on holiday?
In the US everyone thinks they are middle class. But in the UK i feel as though everyone wants to be working class/wants to say they came from a poor background.0 -
It's not the workers who are/aren't mobile, it's the industries.MaxPB said:
I have a lot less sympathy for my cosseted colleagues and peers than I do for someone who has seen their income stagnate or their jobs move to Eastern Europe. We've been living consequence free from EU membership for the last 10 years. In fact the huge migration has helped keep the cost of services down, my coffee from Pret every morning cost just £2.10, without mass migration that would not be possible.rcs1000 said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.williamglenn said:
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?rcs1000 said:I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
As a class, bankers and financial workers are fairly mobile. Steelworkers from Scunthorpe or Port Talbot aren't.0 -
I appreciate your position on the solution you're like to see us achieve for the UK but my question was about why you think the UK is different?rcs1000 said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.williamglenn said:
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?rcs1000 said:I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
Hypothetically if there had been an in/out referendum in every EU member state last June and you could cast a vote everywhere, are there any other countries where you would have voted Leave (assuming you're voting in that country's interests)?0 -
Dromedary said:
Happy now?PlatoSaid said:
Oops. I've now recovered from my opium dream about Britain being dominated by considerations of class. Here is the corrected version.Dromedary said:Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
The Tories are deeply divided, putting on a show of unity, a lot of their voters and members and some of their leaders have a lot of respect for another party, and their leader seems to be sailing by the seat of her pants, spouting slogans such as "Red White and Blue Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Lead the World Again" - in the absence of any clear policy on who on earth they want this country to throw in its lot with.
"far finer in every way than the privately-educated types who consider themselves to be so entitled", in the words of a recent Carlton Club report. But a small yet so far ineradicable minority wishes to impose compulsory tuberculosis on single mothers and to kidnap any surviving prole-brats for use as domestic servants. What attitude true Tories should take towards those who eat peas off their knives and who shop in Aldi, Lidl and Primark - to love them or despise them? - is always a bone of great contention at any Tory gathering, especially in the stockbroker belt.
. I have impeccable, unimpeachable working class roots ( I shall spare you the full Four Yorkshireman thang). I *have* encountered echoes of that old Victorian split between the 'deserving' and 'undeserving' poor.
For those WC folk who have progressed, it's easy to do that reverse telescope thing and think that if *they* made it off the estate, then those that didn't are feckless, or lazy or whatever. My thought is 'There but for the grace of God etc'.
I had three breaks in my early life. Firstly, my parents were both autodidacts in their own way and we had books in the house. Secondly, I passed the 11-plus. Lastly, I stopped running with a very wild crowd in my mid-teens, before they started being 'proper' criminals.
Life on welfare is a shit life, by and large. Particularly if you're disabled, or sick (I've written before about my experience with PIP). We should do more to help people off welfare, without persecuting the sick - and we'll have to fund that by doing less for pensioners and middle-class families.
Now, please excuse me, it's time for my lunchtime baby.0 -
This is an exceptionally narrow definition of the City. Most people in financial services don't work for banks, and even there lots of roles don't require 80 hour working weeks.rcs1000 said:
I guess my point is that in the old days, City workers lived in places like Cobham and commuted in every day.Sean_F said:
Surrey was pretty evenly divided. Ditto Hertfordshire. St. Alban's and North Herts voted Remain. WRT Hertsmere, I imagine Radlett, Bushey Heath, Elstree voted heavily Remain, Bushey North, Potters Bar, Borehamwood heavily Leave.rcs1000 said:
Do any stockbrokers live in Cobham? Do stockbrokers in the old sense really exist anymore?Dromedary said:
Agreed with all of that, except if there are any EU-loving parts of the stockbroker belt where people love the EU they must be very small. There weren't many Remain posters in places like Cobham.Sean_F said:I don't know anyone, outside of here who loves the EU. I know people who don't think it's a bad idea, or that, on balance, we're probably better off in it. But never love.
In Inner London, university cities, centres of government like Cardiff and Edinburgh, parts of the Stockbroker Belt, there are people who love the EU. And, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish Nationalist take the view that my enemy's enemy is my friend.
That doesn't happen so much any more. If you work for any of the big City firms, then in all likelihood you're at your desk by 7am. If you're at somewhere like Goldman Sachs, it'll be more like 6am.
That doesn't mean that there aren't lots of people that commute into London every day from these places, just that the finance types (who are now deeply stressed 32 year olds who vaguely remember what their girlfriends look like), are now more likely to be coming in from Wandsworth or anywhere where you can get an Uber at 6:22am, and be at work in 20 minutes.
Insurance in particular seems fairly immune to modernisation.0 -
Why on earth would a stockbroker put posters up in their windows? what an extraordinary way to assess level of belief.rcs1000 said:
Do any stockbrokers live in Cobham? Do stockbrokers in the old sense really exist anymore?Dromedary said:
Agreed with all of that, except if there are any EU-loving parts of the stockbroker belt where people love the EU they must be very small. There weren't many Remain posters in places like Cobham.Sean_F said:I don't know anyone, outside of here who loves the EU. I know people who don't think it's a bad idea, or that, on balance, we're probably better off in it. But never love.
In Inner London, university cities, centres of government like Cardiff and Edinburgh, parts of the Stockbroker Belt, there are people who love the EU. And, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish Nationalist take the view that my enemy's enemy is my friend.0 -
Very droll, but it wasn't a Tory whose party leader has to issue a reprimand for white van/st George's cross tweeting, and it wasn't the Tories who had to investigate themselves for institutional anti semitism. You think these things are true of the Tories purely because they sounded true when Ben Elton said then in the 80s..Dromedary said:
Oops. I've now recovered from my opium dream about Britain being dominated by considerations of class. Here is the corrected version.
The Tories are tightly united, only putting on a show of division as a joke. None of their voters, members or supporters have any respect for UKIP. Their leader has great competence and vision, as illustrated by the profound principles to which she has declared her allegiance: "Union Jack Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Show Those Foreign Mofos Where It's At, Just Like We Did in er..." The party also benefits from a very clear foreign and trading policy.
The Tories' weakness is that however much they love each other and never stab each other in the back, not even when choosing a parliamentary candidate or leader, they are divided by their attitude towards the working class. Most consider the "proles" to be the "salt of the Earth", "far finer in every way than the privately-educated types who consider themselves to be so entitled", in the words of a recent Carlton Club report. But a small yet so far ineradicable minority wishes to impose compulsory tuberculosis on single mothers and to kidnap any surviving prole-brats for use as domestic servants. What attitude true Tories should take towards those who eat peas off their knives and who shop in Aldi, Lidl and Primark - to love them or despise them? - is always a bone of great contention at any Tory gathering, especially in the stockbroker belt.
Happy now?0 -
WVM finder is I think the appropriate term for her ladyship.Ishmael_Z said:
If it does come to gassing the proles (and I have an open mind on this one) can the tories co-opt Emily Thornberry as Chief WWCfinder General?BannedInParis said:
Paragraph ends with a question to which the answer is no, and then it really goes down the rabbit hole.Dromedary said:Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
The Tories are deeply divided, putting on a show of unity, a lot of their voters and members and some of their leaders have a lot of respect for another party, and their leader seems to be sailing by the seat of her pants, spouting slogans such as "Red White and Blue Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Lead the World Again" - in the absence of any clear policy on who on earth they want this country to throw in its lot with.
The Tories' strength is that however much they hate each other they are united by class hatred, which is a large part of what their class identity rests on, and even when they are knifing each other in the back, which they so dearly enjoy, they retain a degree of unity that the leadership of the Labour party doesn't.
I mean who does the Labour party represent? You could say the working class, but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it, do they? Social workers? Maybe all the administrators in the country who didn't go to private school and who would feel bad about poison-gassing the council estates.
Last line, can we frame that one for posterity?0 -
Private bankers still call them stockbrokers thoughDavid_Evershed said:
Cobham is exclusively F1 drivers and stockbrokers.rcs1000 said:
Do any stockbrokers live in Cobham? Do stockbrokers in the old sense really exist anymore?Dromedary said:
Agreed with all of that, except if there are any EU-loving parts of the stockbroker belt where people love the EU they must be very small. There weren't many Remain posters in places like Cobham.Sean_F said:I don't know anyone, outside of here who loves the EU. I know people who don't think it's a bad idea, or that, on balance, we're probably better off in it. But never love.
In Inner London, university cities, centres of government like Cardiff and Edinburgh, parts of the Stockbroker Belt, there are people who love the EU. And, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish Nationalist take the view that my enemy's enemy is my friend.
Stockbrokers still exist in the old sense although they may call themselves private bankers nowadays. 0 -
There probably aren't more than about 50,000 people like that in the entire country.rcs1000 said:
I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.TwistedFireStopper said:
I don't know anyone, outside of here who loves the EU. I know people who don't think it's a bad idea, or that, on balance, we're probably better off in it. But never love.rcs1000 said:
I would have thought that there will be winners and losers from Brexit, and the LDs can appeal to those who ideologically love the EU (maybe 10% of the UK, but a higher proportion on this board), and those who feel they've lost out from exit (perhaps a further 10-20%).Sean_F said:It's a sensible strategy to boost their support from 8%, but it's still a smaller pool than UKIP were fishing in.
There's another thing here about their strategy which is 'smart' (in that it will appeal to a subset of voters): anyone who loses their job in the next few years - irrespective of the real reason - will blame Brexit, because there will be a political party telling them that was the reason, and people love to be told it's not your fault.0 -
I seem to remember a Tory leader once said something about that.MaxPB said:those who didn't blamed society for their problems.
0 -
All parties are broad churches. I met a bunch of lovely Labour folk during EUref, and there's a good chunk of the Tory chinless wonder set that I find incredibly irritating. We do tend to mischaracterise each other, because the extremes (like la Thornberry) are more memorable/repellent. I don't think every Labour voter is Billy Bragg.Ishmael_Z said:
Very droll, but it wasn't a Tory whose party leader has to issue a reprimand for white van/st George's cross tweeting, and it wasn't the Tories who had to investigate themselves for institutional anti semitism. You think these things are true of the Tories purely because they sounded true when Ben Elton said then in the 80s..Dromedary said:
Oops. I've now recovered from my opium dream about Britain being dominated by considerations of class. Here is the corrected version.
The Tories are tightly united, only putting on a show of division as a joke. None of their voters, members or supporters have any respect for UKIP. Their leader has great competence and vision, as illustrated by the profound principles to which she has declared her allegiance: "Union Jack Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Show Those Foreign Mofos Where It's At, Just Like We Did in er..." The party also benefits from a very clear foreign and trading policy.
The Tories' weakness is that however much they love each other and never stab each other in the back, not even when choosing a parliamentary candidate or leader, they are divided by their attitude towards the working class. Most consider the "proles" to be the "salt of the Earth", "far finer in every way than the privately-educated types who consider themselves to be so entitled", in the words of a recent Carlton Club report. But a small yet so far ineradicable minority wishes to impose compulsory tuberculosis on single mothers and to kidnap any surviving prole-brats for use as domestic servants. What attitude true Tories should take towards those who eat peas off their knives and who shop in Aldi, Lidl and Primark - to love them or despise them? - is always a bone of great contention at any Tory gathering, especially in the stockbroker belt.
Happy now?0 -
I think 'traitors' is a leeeeeetle ott. however, it won't pass and in the meanwhile does further damage to the Labour brand so not all bad.nunu said:Traitors.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/28/labour-mps-commons-motion-article-50-bill-heidi-alexander
I'm gonna go all SeanT overboard but I want them locked up before the vote.
0 -
Liverpool are capitulating!0
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I think they are being turned back by the airlines not refused entry. Presumably tgerecis a liability if they fly someone in who is turned away so they are being hyper cautious until the rules are clearScott_P said:
Anecdotally it already does. There are reports of green card holders being refused entryJosiasJessop said:Apparently the ban *may* include those with green cards and H1B visas.
Insanity.0 -
They lose the right to do so.isam said:
Wouldn't people that really believed in it that much be happy to go and live in an EU country when we leave?rcs1000 said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.williamglenn said:
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?rcs1000 said:I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.0 -
Ah brings back memories of Carswell campaigning alongside Nige
https://twitter.com/gareth_snell/status/8253288945343692800 -
Thank goodness for Mother Theresa's restraining hand, if she hadn't dropped by who knows how far Trump would have gone. He might even have restricted entry conditions from Muslim countries in which he has business interests (and coincidentally with which HMG also appears to have substantial economic ties).rkrkrk said:
Can that be legal?Scott_P said:
Anecdotally it already does. There are reports of green card holders being refused entryJosiasJessop said:Apparently the ban *may* include those with green cards and H1B visas.
Insanity.
Can a president really overturn something like that so easily?0 -
Then they'll have to get a visa.foxinsoxuk said:
They lose the right to do so.isam said:
Wouldn't people that really believed in it that much be happy to go and live in an EU country when we leave?rcs1000 said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.williamglenn said:
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?rcs1000 said:I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.0 -
You missed this oneisam said:Ah brings back memories of Carswell campaigning alongside Nige
/twitter.com/gareth_snell/status/825328894534369280
https://twitter.com/gareth_snell/status/8252988030749409280 -
The Blessed May replaces the Blessed Margaret?Scott_P said:0 -
It's a very smart move. It keeps Labour's integrity with those who feel betrayed by the three line whip particularly as more join the rebellion but most important it's likely to hasten the departure of Corbyn which might make Labour a voice again.nunu said:Traitors.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/28/labour-mps-commons-motion-article-50-bill-heidi-alexander
I'm gonna go all SeanT overboard but I want them locked up before the vote.0 -
They don't need one at present.MaxPB said:
Then they'll have to get a visa.foxinsoxuk said:
They lose the right to do so.isam said:
Wouldn't people that really believed in it that much be happy to go and live in an EU country when we leave?rcs1000 said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.williamglenn said:
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?rcs1000 said:I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
2 years before the deportations begin of Britons that fail the MaxPB test? (outsourced to Switzerland)0 -
If "traitors" is OTT, how about "the Enemies of Democracy"?felix said:
I think 'traitors' is a leeeeeetle ott. however, it won't pass and in the meanwhile does further damage to the Labour brand so not all bad.nunu said:Traitors.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/28/labour-mps-commons-motion-article-50-bill-heidi-alexander
I'm gonna go all SeanT overboard but I want them locked up before the vote.0 -
Now now, Andrea Leadsom knows to her cost you can't make cheap political capital about Theresa'a inability to be a mother....Theuniondivvie said:
Thank goodness for Mother Theresa's restraining hand, if she hadn't dropped by who knows how far Trump would have gone. He might even have restricted entry conditions from Muslim countries in which he has business interests (and coincidentally with which HMG also appears to have substantial economic ties).rkrkrk said:
Can that be legal?Scott_P said:
Anecdotally it already does. There are reports of green card holders being refused entryJosiasJessop said:Apparently the ban *may* include those with green cards and H1B visas.
Insanity.
Can a president really overturn something like that so easily?0 -
It is the reserves. Even so...tlg86 said:Liverpool are capitulating!
0 -
I'd love to see what he was tweeting around referendum time... shame he has deleted them allfoxinsoxuk said:
You missed this oneisam said:Ah brings back memories of Carswell campaigning alongside Nige
/twitter.com/gareth_snell/status/825328894534369280
twitter.com/gareth_snell/status/825298803074940928
0 -
One would have to be hyper sensitive to think that a comparison to Mother Teresa was a reference to child rearing abilities.MarqueeMark said:
Now now, Andrea Leadsom knows to her cost you can't make cheap political capital about Theresa'a inability to be a mother....Theuniondivvie said:
Thank goodness for Mother Theresa's restraining hand, if she hadn't dropped by who knows how far Trump would have gone. He might even have restricted entry conditions from Muslim countries in which he has business interests (and coincidentally with which HMG also appears to have substantial economic ties).rkrkrk said:
Can that be legal?Scott_P said:
Anecdotally it already does. There are reports of green card holders being refused entryJosiasJessop said:Apparently the ban *may* include those with green cards and H1B visas.
Insanity.
Can a president really overturn something like that so easily?
A snowflake in fact.0 -
It's not a question of 'traitor', it's the sheer numbnuttery of insisting on something we can't have, and can't promise.MarqueeMark said:
If "traitors" is OTT, how about "the Enemies of Democracy"?felix said:
I think 'traitors' is a leeeeeetle ott. however, it won't pass and in the meanwhile does further damage to the Labour brand so not all bad.nunu said:Traitors.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/28/labour-mps-commons-motion-article-50-bill-heidi-alexander
I'm gonna go all SeanT overboard but I want them locked up before the vote.
Ultimately, the PLP are fucking stupid, they have no intellectual hinterland, they just can't think things through any longer. There used to be*giants* in their ranks. How the mighty have fallen.0 -
No they don't.foxinsoxuk said:
They lose the right to do so.isam said:
Wouldn't people that really believed in it that much be happy to go and live in an EU country when we leave?rcs1000 said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.williamglenn said:
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?rcs1000 said:I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.0 -
Oh indeed - I voted remain but accept the result and wish to move on. i'm also a Tory and heartily applaud every piece of idiocy from the Labour party.MarqueeMark said:
If "traitors" is OTT, how about "the Enemies of Democracy"?felix said:
I think 'traitors' is a leeeeeetle ott. however, it won't pass and in the meanwhile does further damage to the Labour brand so not all bad.nunu said:Traitors.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/28/labour-mps-commons-motion-article-50-bill-heidi-alexander
I'm gonna go all SeanT overboard but I want them locked up before the vote.0 -
At the moment we have the freedom to move and live anywhere in the EU, after Brexit we lose that right.felix said:
No they don't.foxinsoxuk said:
They lose the right to do so.isam said:
Wouldn't people that really believed in it that much be happy to go and live in an EU country when we leave?rcs1000 said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.williamglenn said:
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?rcs1000 said:I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.0 -
A majority of Labour seats voted Leave, if the Tories win Copeland and UKIP Stoke it will not be because Corbyn was not pro Remain enoughRoger said:
It's a very smart move. It keeps Labour's integrity with those who feel betrayed by the three line whip particularly as more join the rebellion but most important it's likely to hasten the departure of Corbyn which might make Labour a voice again.nunu said:Traitors.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/28/labour-mps-commons-motion-article-50-bill-heidi-alexander
I'm gonna go all SeanT overboard but I want them locked up before the vote.0 -
Another possibility though is what happened to the Tories post February 1975 when they ditched Heath - paricularly as Labour is in opposition. Whilst there would be mutterings, the hard Left would remain a small group within the PLP, and little prospect of a soft Left leader being successfully challenged or undermined. There was a lot of background chatter re-Thatcher 'not being up to it' from 75 - 79 but that did her very little damage in the end - indeed it probably strengthened her when she proved them wrong.0
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AndyJS said:
There probably aren't more than about 50,000 people like that in the entire country.</blockquotercs1000 said:
I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.TwistedFireStopper said:
I don't know anyone, outside of here who loves the EU. I know people who don't think it's a bad idea, or that, on balance, we're probably better off in it. But never love.rcs1000 said:
I would have thought that there will be winners and losers from Brexit, and the LDs can appeal to those who ideologically love the EU (maybe 10% of the UK, but a higher proportion on this board), and those who feel they've lost out from exit (perhaps a further 10-20%).Sean_F said:It's a sensible strategy to boost their support from 8%, but it's still a smaller pool than UKIP were fishing in.
There's another thing here about their strategy which is 'smart' (in that it will appeal to a subset of voters): anyone who loses their job in the next few years - irrespective of the real reason - will blame Brexit, because there will be a political party telling them that was the reason, and people love to be told it's not your fault.
Not all are in their early 20's0 -
Some of the Labour Leave people were great.John_M said:
All parties are broad churches. I met a bunch of lovely Labour folk during EUref, and there's a good chunk of the Tory chinless wonder set that I find incredibly irritating. We do tend to mischaracterise each other, because the extremes (like la Thornberry) are more memorable/repellent. I don't think every Labour voter is Billy Bragg.Ishmael_Z said:
Very droll, but it wasn't a Tory whose party leader has to issue a reprimand for white van/st George's cross tweeting, and it wasn't the Tories who had to investigate themselves for institutional anti semitism. You think these things are true of the Tories purely because they sounded true when Ben Elton said then in the 80s..Dromedary said:
Oops. I've now recovered from my opium dream about Britain being dominated by considerations of class. Here is the corrected version.
The Tories are tightly united, only putting on a show of division as a joke. None of their voters, members or supporters have any respect for UKIP. Their leader has great competence and vision, as illustrated by the profound principles to which she has declared her allegiance: "Union Jack Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Show Those Foreign Mofos Where It's At, Just Like We Did in er..." The party also benefits from a very clear foreign and trading policy.
The Tories' weakness is that however much they love each other and never stab each other in the back, not even when choosing a parliamentary candidate or leader, they are divided by their attitude towards the working class. Most consider the "proles" to be the "salt of the Earth", "far finer in every way than the privately-educated types who consider themselves to be so entitled", in the words of a recent Carlton Club report. But a small yet so far ineradicable minority wishes to impose compulsory tuberculosis on single mothers and to kidnap any surviving prole-brats for use as domestic servants. What attitude true Tories should take towards those who eat peas off their knives and who shop in Aldi, Lidl and Primark - to love them or despise them? - is always a bone of great contention at any Tory gathering, especially in the stockbroker belt.
Happy now?0 -
You might even find a female leader, provided of course one can be found that doesn't act like a 'bitch in heat' as you so delightfully put it.Roger said:
It's a very smart move. It keeps Labour's integrity with those who feel betrayed by the three line whip particularly as more join the rebellion but most important it's likely to hasten the departure of Corbyn which might make Labour a voice again.nunu said:Traitors.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/28/labour-mps-commons-motion-article-50-bill-heidi-alexander
I'm gonna go all SeanT overboard but I want them locked up before the vote.0 -
Wrong. The deal remains [sic] to be done. Just because you choose to be a doommonger doesn't make it so and as a tactic it's not got a good record! How do you suppose anyone moved abroad to work before we joined the EU?foxinsoxuk said:
At the moment we have the freedom to move and live anywhere in the EU, after Brexit we lose that right.felix said:
No they don't.foxinsoxuk said:
They lose the right to do so.isam said:
Wouldn't people that really believed in it that much be happy to go and live in an EU country when we leave?rcs1000 said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.williamglenn said:
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?rcs1000 said:I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.0 -
"There is no such thing as society. There is living tapestry of men and women and people and the beauty of that tapestry and the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for ourselves and each of us prepared to turn round and help by our own efforts those who are unfortunate."ThreeQuidder said:
I seem to remember a Tory leader once said something about that.MaxPB said:those who didn't blamed society for their problems.
- M. H. Thatcher, interview in Women's Own, 19870 -
Marie Curie didn't need the EU or ERASMUS to move from Poland to Francefelix said:
Wrong. The deal remains [sic] to be done. Just because you choose to be a doommonger doesn't make it so and as a tactic it's not got a good record! How do you suppose anyone moved abroad to work before we joined the EU?foxinsoxuk said:
At the moment we have the freedom to move and live anywhere in the EU, after Brexit we lose that right.felix said:
No they don't.foxinsoxuk said:
They lose the right to do so.isam said:
Wouldn't people that really believed in it that much be happy to go and live in an EU country when we leave?rcs1000 said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.williamglenn said:
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?rcs1000 said:I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can. 0 -
It really shouldn't have been the reserves today, very poor from Klopp.foxinsoxuk said:
It is the reserves. Even so...tlg86 said:Liverpool are capitulating!
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Since they gave your then party money, I can see why you'd think that.Sean_F said:
Some of the Labour Leave people were great.John_M said:
All parties are broad churches. I met a bunch of lovely Labour folk during EUref, and there's a good chunk of the Tory chinless wonder set that I find incredibly irritating. We do tend to mischaracterise each other, because the extremes (like la Thornberry) are more memorable/repellent. I don't think every Labour voter is Billy Bragg.Ishmael_Z said:
Very droll, but it wasn't a Tory whose party leader has to issue a reprimand for white van/st George's cross tweeting, and it wasn't the Tories who had to investigate themselves for institutional anti semitism. You think these things are true of the Tories purely because they sounded true when Ben Elton said then in the 80s..Dromedary said:
Oops. I've now recovered from my opium dream about Britain being dominated by considerations of class. Here is the corrected version.
The Tories are tightly united, only putting on a show of division as a joke. None of their voters, members or supporters have any respect for UKIP. Their leader has great competence and vision, as illustrated by the profound principles to which she has declared her allegiance: "Union Jack Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Show Those Foreign Mofos Where It's At, Just Like We Did in er..." The party also benefits from a very clear foreign and trading policy.
The Tories' weakness is that however much they love each other and never stab each other in the back, not even when choosing a parliamentary candidate or leader, they are divided by their attitude towards the working class. Most consider the "proles" to be the "salt of the Earth", "far finer in every way than the privately-educated types who consider themselves to be so entitled", in the words of a recent Carlton Club report. But a small yet so far ineradicable minority wishes to impose compulsory tuberculosis on single mothers and to kidnap any surviving prole-brats for use as domestic servants. What attitude true Tories should take towards those who eat peas off their knives and who shop in Aldi, Lidl and Primark - to love them or despise them? - is always a bone of great contention at any Tory gathering, especially in the stockbroker belt.
Happy now?0 -
If Labour win in Stoke and Copeland, then does it mean Corbyn's Brexit is vindicated?HYUFD said:
A majority of Labour seats voted Leave, if the Tories win Copeland and UKIP Stoke it will not be because Corbyn was not pro Remain enoughRoger said:
It's a very smart move. It keeps Labour's integrity with those who feel betrayed by the three line whip particularly as more join the rebellion but most important it's likely to hasten the departure of Corbyn which might make Labour a voice again.nunu said:Traitors.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/28/labour-mps-commons-motion-article-50-bill-heidi-alexander
I'm gonna go all SeanT overboard but I want them locked up before the vote.
Or more likely that other issues, such as hospital closures in Copeland matter more to voters?
Or just that local parties picking repected local councillors as candidates is a sign that the party is not as dominated by metropolitan snowflakes as PB Torys opine?0 -
I've been an ex-pat twice (sorry, immigrant), my late wife beat me with three, and my little sister bettered both of us with four stints abroad, none of which were with EU countries. But how on earth did you accomplish this wonder without Freedom of Movement, I hear you cry. Let me tell you, my dear online friends: Magic. It was entirely down to our command of sorcery.felix said:
Wrong. The deal remains [sic] to be done. Just because you choose to be a doommonger doesn't make it so and as a tactic it's not got a good record! How do you suppose anyone moved abroad to work before we joined the EU?foxinsoxuk said:
At the moment we have the freedom to move and live anywhere in the EU, after Brexit we lose that right.felix said:
No they don't.foxinsoxuk said:
They lose the right to do so.isam said:
Wouldn't people that really believed in it that much be happy to go and live in an EU country when we leave?rcs1000 said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.williamglenn said:
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?rcs1000 said:I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.0 -
If Labour hold both it will be on non Brexit issues, if the Tories and UKIP win the seats it will largely be because of Brexitfoxinsoxuk said:
If Labour win in Stoke and Copeland, then does it mean Corbyn's Brexit is vindicated?HYUFD said:
A majority of Labour seats voted Leave, if the Tories win Copeland and UKIP Stoke it will not be because Corbyn was not pro Remain enoughRoger said:
It's a very smart move. It keeps Labour's integrity with those who feel betrayed by the three line whip particularly as more join the rebellion but most important it's likely to hasten the departure of Corbyn which might make Labour a voice again.nunu said:Traitors.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/28/labour-mps-commons-motion-article-50-bill-heidi-alexander
I'm gonna go all SeanT overboard but I want them locked up before the vote.
Or more likely that other issues, such as hospital closures in Copeland matter more to voters?
Or just that local parties picking repected local councillors as candidates is a sign that the party is not as dominated by metropolitan snowflakes as PB Torys opine?0 -
We lose the automatic right to do so, and I'm content with that. I would never deny other nations the right to impose immigration controls, in accordance with their own interests.foxinsoxuk said:
At the moment we have the freedom to move and live anywhere in the EU, after Brexit we lose that right.felix said:
No they don't.foxinsoxuk said:
They lose the right to do so.isam said:
Wouldn't people that really believed in it that much be happy to go and live in an EU country when we leave?rcs1000 said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.williamglenn said:
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?rcs1000 said:I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.0 -
New thread >>>0
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So Sturridge can't even get into the reserves?foxinsoxuk said:
It is the reserves. Even so...tlg86 said:Liverpool are capitulating!
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foxinsoxuk said:
You missed this oneisam said:Ah brings back memories of Carswell campaigning alongside Nige
/twitter.com/gareth_snell/status/825328894534369280
https://twitter.com/gareth_snell/status/825298803074940928
Ah yes. The Red Berets.0 -
But why would the EU countries put restrictions on immigration of British citizens ?Sean_F said:
We lose the automatic right to do so, and I'm content with that. I would never deny other nations the right to impose immigration controls, in accordance with their own interests.foxinsoxuk said:
At the moment we have the freedom to move and live anywhere in the EU, after Brexit we lose that right.felix said:
No they don't.foxinsoxuk said:
They lose the right to do so.isam said:
Wouldn't people that really believed in it that much be happy to go and live in an EU country when we leave?rcs1000 said:
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.williamglenn said:
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?rcs1000 said:I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
We've been told endlessly that immigration is good for countries so EU countries would be damaging themselves in imposing restrictions.
Unless that is uncontrolled immigration isn't the boon that we've been told ...
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And Harriet Harman made sure that he won!Morris_Dancer said:Mr. L, I agree, but let us not forget the PLP put him on the short list.
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