I don't know anyone, outside of here who loves the EU. I know people who don't think it's a bad idea, or that, on balance, we're probably better off in it. But never love.
In Inner London, university cities, centres of government like Cardiff and Edinburgh, parts of the Stockbroker Belt, there are people who love the EU. And, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish Nationalist take the view that my enemy's enemy is my friend.
Agreed with all of that, except if there are any EU-loving parts of the stockbroker belt where people love the EU they must be very small. There weren't many Remain posters in places like Cobham.
Do any stockbrokers live in Cobham? Do stockbrokers in the old sense really exist anymore?
Cobham is exclusively F1 drivers and stockbrokers.
Stockbrokers still exist in the old sense although they may call themselves private bankers nowadays.
There are a couple of vampire squid "wealth manager" mega companies who have pretty much hoovered up all the old small independent stockbrokers.
Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
The Tories are deeply divided, putting on a show of unity, a lot of their voters and members and some of their leaders have a lot of respect for another party, and their leader seems to be sailing by the seat of her pants, spouting slogans such as "Red White and Blue Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Lead the World Again" - in the absence of any clear policy on who on earth they want this country to throw in its lot with.
The Tories' strength is that however much they hate each other they are united by class hatred, which is a large part of what their class identity rests on, and even when they are knifing each other in the back, which they so dearly enjoy, they retain a degree of unity that the leadership of the Labour party doesn't.
I mean who does the Labour party represent? You could say the working class, but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it, do they? Social workers? Maybe all the administrators in the country who didn't go to private school and who would feel bad about poison-gassing the council estates.
You really don't understand Conservatism, do you.
Indeed, as a fairly working class Tory member I've never experienced what he describes the party as. In fact I've been asked to run as a councillor many times, I'm guessing either despite my modest background or maybe because of it.
What I find is that the Tories like people who grab opportunities and loathe people who blame others for their own failures.
Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
The Tories are deeply divided, putting on a show of unity, a lot of their voters and members and some of their leaders have a lot of respect for another party, and their leader seems to be sailing by the seat of her pants, spouting slogans such as "Red White and Blue Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Lead the World Again" - in the absence of any clear policy on who on earth they want this country to throw in its lot with.
The Tories' strength is that however much they hate each other they are united by class hatred, which is a large part of what their class identity rests on, and even when they are knifing each other in the back, which they so dearly enjoy, they retain a degree of unity that the leadership of the Labour party doesn't.
I mean who does the Labour party represent? You could say the working class, but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it, do they? Social workers? Maybe all the administrators in the country who didn't go to private school and who would feel bad about poison-gassing the council estates.
You really don't understand Conservatism, do you.
Indeed, as a fairly working class Tory member I've never experienced what he describes the party as. In fact I've been asked to run as a councillor many times, I'm guessing either despite my modest background or maybe because of it.
What I find is that the Tories like people who grab opportunities and loathe people who blame others for their own failures.
Agreed - though not sure loathe is the right word. Have little time for, perhaps...
I don't know anyone, outside of here who loves the EU. I know people who don't think it's a bad idea, or that, on balance, we're probably better off in it. But never love.
In Inner London, university cities, centres of government like Cardiff and Edinburgh, parts of the Stockbroker Belt, there are people who love the EU. And, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish Nationalist take the view that my enemy's enemy is my friend.
Agreed with all of that, except if there are any EU-loving parts of the stockbroker belt where people love the EU they must be very small. There weren't many Remain posters in places like Cobham.
Do any stockbrokers live in Cobham? Do stockbrokers in the old sense really exist anymore?
Surrey was pretty evenly divided. Ditto Hertfordshire. St. Alban's and North Herts voted Remain. WRT Hertsmere, I imagine Radlett, Bushey Heath, Elstree voted heavily Remain, Bushey North, Potters Bar, Borehamwood heavily Leave.
Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
The Tories are deeply divided, putting on a show of unity, a lot of their voters and members and some of their leaders have a lot of respect for another party, and their leader seems to be sailing by the seat of her pants, spouting slogans such as "Red White and Blue Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Lead the World Again" - in the absence of any clear policy on who on earth they want this country to throw in its lot with.
The Tories' strength is that however much they hate each other they are united by class hatred, which is a large part of what their class identity rests on, and even when they are knifing each other in the back, which they so dearly enjoy, they retain a degree of unity that the leadership of the Labour party doesn't.
I mean who does the Labour party represent? You could say the working class, but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it, do they? Social workers? Maybe all the administrators in the country who didn't go to private school and who would feel bad about poison-gassing the council estates.
Paragraph ends with a question to which the answer is no, and then it really goes down the rabbit hole.
Last line, can we frame that one for posterity?
If it does come to gassing the proles (and I have an open mind on this one) can the tories co-opt Emily Thornberry as Chief WWCfinder General?
Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
The Tories are deeply divided, putting on a show of unity, a lot of their voters and members and some of their leaders have a lot of respect for another party, and their leader seems to be sailing by the seat of her pants, spouting slogans such as "Red White and Blue Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Lead the World Again" - in the absence of any clear policy on who on earth they want this country to throw in its lot with.
The Tories' strength is that however much they hate each other they are united by class hatred, which is a large part of what their class identity rests on, and even when they are knifing each other in the back, which they so dearly enjoy, they retain a degree of unity that the leadership of the Labour party doesn't.
I mean who does the Labour party represent? You could say the working class, but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it, do they? Social workers? Maybe all the administrators in the country who didn't go to private school and who would feel bad about poison-gassing the council estates.
You really don't understand Conservatism, do you.
Indeed, as a fairly working class Tory member I've never experienced what he describes the party as. In fact I've been asked to run as a councillor many times, I'm guessing either despite my modest background or maybe because of it.
What I find is that the Tories like people who grab opportunities and loathe people who blame others for their own failures.
Agreed - though not sure loathe is the right word. Have little time for, perhaps...
Yes, that's probably better for the party in general, but loathe is right for my personal view. As someone who grew up on an estate and is considered to be a minority, working hard was the only way to be successful. Those who did so escaped the nightmare of the estate, those who didn't blamed society for their problems. The former invariable vote Tory, the latter vote Labour.
Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
The Tories are deeply divided, putting on a show of unity, a lot of their voters and members and some of their leaders have a lot of respect for another party, and their leader seems to be sailing by the seat of her pants, spouting slogans such as "Red White and Blue Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Lead the World Again" - in the absence of any clear policy on who on earth they want this country to throw in its lot with.
The Tories' strength is that however much they hate each other they are united by class hatred, which is a large part of what their class identity rests on, and even when they are knifing each other in the back, which they so dearly enjoy, they retain a degree of unity that the leadership of the Labour party doesn't.
I mean who does the Labour party represent? You could say the working class, but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it, do they? Social workers? Maybe all the administrators in the country who didn't go to private school and who would feel bad about poison-gassing the council estates.
You really don't understand Conservatism, do you.
I occasionally encountered people in the Conservative Party who made loathsome comments about the lower classes, but it was rare.
I don't know anyone, outside of here who loves the EU. I know people who don't think it's a bad idea, or that, on balance, we're probably better off in it. But never love.
In Inner London, university cities, centres of government like Cardiff and Edinburgh, parts of the Stockbroker Belt, there are people who love the EU. And, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish Nationalist take the view that my enemy's enemy is my friend.
Agreed with all of that, except if there are any EU-loving parts of the stockbroker belt where people love the EU they must be very small. There weren't many Remain posters in places like Cobham.
Do any stockbrokers live in Cobham? Do stockbrokers in the old sense really exist anymore?
Surrey was pretty evenly divided. Ditto Hertfordshire. St. Alban's and North Herts voted Remain. WRT Hertsmere, I imagine Radlett, Bushey Heath, Elstree voted heavily Remain, Bushey North, Potters Bar, Borehamwood heavily Leave.
I guess my point is that in the old days, City workers lived in places like Cobham and commuted in every day.
That doesn't happen so much any more. If you work for any of the big City firms, then in all likelihood you're at your desk by 7am. If you're at somewhere like Goldman Sachs, it'll be more like 6am.
That doesn't mean that there aren't lots of people that commute into London every day from these places, just that the finance types (who are now deeply stressed 32 year olds who vaguely remember what their girlfriends look like), are now more likely to be coming in from Wandsworth or anywhere where you can get an Uber at 6:22am, and be at work in 20 minutes.
Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
The Tories are deeply divided, putting on a show of unity, a lot of their voters and members and some of their leaders have a lot of respect for another party, and their leader seems to be sailing by the seat of her pants, spouting slogans such as "Red White and Blue Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Lead the World Again" - in the absence of any clear policy on who on earth they want this country to throw in its lot with.
The Tories' strength is that however much they hate each other they are united by class hatred, which is a large part of what their class identity rests on, and even when they are knifing each other in the back, which they so dearly enjoy, they retain a degree of unity that the leadership of the Labour party doesn't.
I mean who does the Labour party represent? You could say the working class, but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it, do they? Social workers? Maybe all the administrators in the country who didn't go to private school and who would feel bad about poison-gassing the council estates.
What are you smoking?
Oops. I've now recovered from my opium dream about Britain being dominated by considerations of class. Here is the corrected version.
The Tories are tightly united, only putting on a show of division as a joke. None of their voters, members or supporters have any respect for UKIP. Their leader has great competence and vision, as illustrated by the profound principles to which she has declared her allegiance: "Union Jack Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Show Those Foreign Mofos Where It's At, Just Like We Did in er..." The party also benefits from a very clear foreign and trading policy.
The Tories' weakness is that however much they love each other and never stab each other in the back, not even when choosing a parliamentary candidate or leader, they are divided by their attitude towards the working class. Most consider the "proles" to be the "salt of the Earth", "far finer in every way than the privately-educated types who consider themselves to be so entitled", in the words of a recent Carlton Club report. But a small yet so far ineradicable minority wishes to impose compulsory tuberculosis on single mothers and to kidnap any surviving prole-brats for use as domestic servants. What attitude true Tories should take towards those who eat peas off their knives and who shop in Aldi, Lidl and Primark - to love them or despise them? - is always a bone of great contention at any Tory gathering, especially in the stockbroker belt.
Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
The Tories are deeply divided, putting on a show of unity, a lot of their voters and members and some of their leaders have a lot of respect for another party, and their leader seems to be sailing by the seat of her pants, spouting slogans such as "Red White and Blue Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Lead the World Again" - in the absence of any clear policy on who on earth they want this country to throw in its lot with.
The Tories' strength is that however much they hate each other they are united by class hatred, which is a large part of what their class identity rests on, and even when they are knifing each other in the back, which they so dearly enjoy, they retain a degree of unity that the leadership of the Labour party doesn't.
I mean who does the Labour party represent? You could say the working class, but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it, do they? Social workers? Maybe all the administrators in the country who didn't go to private school and who would feel bad about poison-gassing the council estates.
You really don't understand Conservatism, do you.
Indeed, as a fairly working class Tory member I've never experienced what he describes the party as. In fact I've been asked to run as a councillor many times, I'm guessing either despite my modest background or maybe because of it.
What I find is that the Tories like people who grab opportunities and loathe people who blame others for their own failures.
Agreed - though not sure loathe is the right word. Have little time for, perhaps...
Yes, that's probably better for the party in general, but loathe is right for my personal view. As someone who grew up on an estate and is considered to be a minority, working hard was the only way to be successful. Those who did so escaped the nightmare of the estate, those who didn't blamed society for their problems. The former invariable vote Tory, the latter vote Labour.
We should certainly praise people who rise out of poverty due to hard work, and condemn the work shy, but there is a category of people who really do endure rotten circumstances and rotten luck.
I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
I don't know anyone, outside of here who loves the EU. I know people who don't think it's a bad idea, or that, on balance, we're probably better off in it. But never love.
In Inner London, university cities, centres of government like Cardiff and Edinburgh, parts of the Stockbroker Belt, there are people who love the EU. And, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish Nationalist take the view that my enemy's enemy is my friend.
Agreed with all of that, except if there are any EU-loving parts of the stockbroker belt where people love the EU they must be very small. There weren't many Remain posters in places like Cobham.
Do any stockbrokers live in Cobham? Do stockbrokers in the old sense really exist anymore?
Surrey was pretty evenly divided. Ditto Hertfordshire. St. Alban's and North Herts voted Remain. WRT Hertsmere, I imagine Radlett, Bushey Heath, Elstree voted heavily Remain, Bushey North, Potters Bar, Borehamwood heavily Leave.
I guess my point is that in the old days, City workers lived in places like Cobham and commuted in every day.
That doesn't happen so much any more. If you work for any of the big City firms, then in all likelihood you're at your desk by 7am. If you're at somewhere like Goldman Sachs, it'll be more like 6am.
That doesn't mean that there aren't lots of people that commute into London every day from these places, just that the finance types (who are now deeply stressed 32 year olds who vaguely remember what their girlfriends look like), are now more likely to be coming in from Wandsworth or anywhere where you can get an Uber at 6:22am, and be at work in 20 minutes.
Usually it was West Hampstead, St John's Wood and more recently Hornsey for those who were coming into Moorgate.
Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
I mean who does the Labour party represent? You could say the working class, but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it, do they? Social workers? Maybe all the administrators in the country who didn't go to private school and who would feel bad about poison-gassing the council estates.
The Labour party represents public sector workers.
Not sure there are many in Copeland (maybe Sellafield?) or Stoke?
I don't know anyone, outside of here who loves the EU. I know people who don't think it's a bad idea, or that, on balance, we're probably better off in it. But never love.
In Inner London, university cities, centres of government like Cardiff and Edinburgh, parts of the Stockbroker Belt, there are people who love the EU. And, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish Nationalist take the view that my enemy's enemy is my friend.
Agreed with all of that, except if there are any EU-loving parts of the stockbroker belt where people love the EU they must be very small. There weren't many Remain posters in places like Cobham.
Do any stockbrokers live in Cobham? Do stockbrokers in the old sense really exist anymore?
Surrey was pretty evenly divided. Ditto Hertfordshire. St. Alban's and North Herts voted Remain. WRT Hertsmere, I imagine Radlett, Bushey Heath, Elstree voted heavily Remain, Bushey North, Potters Bar, Borehamwood heavily Leave.
I guess my point is that in the old days, City workers lived in places like Cobham and commuted in every day.
That doesn't happen so much any more. If you work for any of the big City firms, then in all likelihood you're at your desk by 7am. If you're at somewhere like Goldman Sachs, it'll be more like 6am.
That doesn't mean that there aren't lots of people that commute into London every day from these places, just that the finance types (who are now deeply stressed 32 year olds who vaguely remember what their girlfriends look like), are now more likely to be coming in from Wandsworth or anywhere where you can get an Uber at 6:22am, and be at work in 20 minutes.
Who would want to live like that? The point of having money is to enjoy it. (I speak as someone who is comfortable, rather than rich).
I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
Wouldn't people that really believed in it that much be happy to go and live in an EU country when we leave?
Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
The Tories are deeply divided, putting on a show of unity, a lot of their voters and members and some of their leaders have a lot of respect for another party, and their leader seems to be sailing by the seat of her pants, spouting slogans such as "Red White and Blue Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Lead the World Again" - in the absence of any clear policy on who on earth they want this country to throw in its lot with.
The Tories' strength is that however much they hate each other they are united by class hatred, which is a large part of what their class identity rests on, and even when they are knifing each other in the back, which they so dearly enjoy, they retain a degree of unity that the leadership of the Labour party doesn't.
I mean who does the Labour party represent? You could say the working class, but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it, do they? Social workers? Maybe all the administrators in the country who didn't go to private school and who would feel bad about poison-gassing the council estates.
You really don't understand Conservatism, do you.
Indeed, as a fairly working class Tory member I've never experienced what he describes the party as. In fact I've been asked to run as a councillor many times, I'm guessing either despite my modest background or maybe because of it.
What I find is that the Tories like people who grab opportunities and loathe people who blame others for their own failures.
This may come across as personal... But I don't mean it in that way.
At what point do you stop (or start) being working class?
From previous posts you work in finance/something similar as an expat in Switzerland and flew first class to Fiji on holiday?
In the US everyone thinks they are middle class. But in the UK i feel as though everyone wants to be working class/wants to say they came from a poor background.
I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
I think we can satisfy 70%, but not the group you mention.
Been a while since I have commented, though I do still lurk.
I see a failure of imagination here across the board as to how radical change could emerge in the UK.
To be honest I think the Cheerleaders for May have got it stunningly wrong. Trump is the most unpopular President in America since these things started to be recorded. In the UK he is more or less despised across the political spectrum. May's hurried and supplicatory visit looks awful. Meanwhile the unspoken assumption that the EU will simply collapse and go away is looking pretty unsupported by the facts too. So in three years time, with Trump checkmated by Congress and the EU past the worst, the Hard Brexit policy could well be going to look like a dogs breakfast for a friendless UK.
Keir Starmer is the only grown up on the Labour front bench at the moment, and even he is making significant mistakes... More important than whether Labour hold the by-election seats is what happens in the locals in May. The big news may not be a Labour rout but the return of the Lib Dems. Then the political momentum could turn strongly into a Remain/Return narrative.
People are pretty dismissive of Corbyn, but they do not love Mrs May either. So it seems to me that we could absolutely see the long heralded political realignment actually happen. Those who laughed at the surge for Nick Clegg in 2010 - especially when it didn't happen-may find that Farron goes on to higher things- the electorate are pretty volatile and increasingly pissed off- the Lib Dems are getting points even among soft leavers for sticking to their European guns, and if May's gamble on Trumpistan turns out to be a failure, then vast change could happen very quickly.
You do know his rating has jumped to 59% the same as Obama in the same poll after his election
I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
I have a lot less sympathy for my cosseted colleagues and peers than I do for someone who has seen their income stagnate or their jobs move to Eastern Europe. We've been living consequence free from EU membership for the last 10 years. In fact the huge migration has helped keep the cost of services down, my coffee from Pret every morning cost just £2.10, without mass migration that would not be possible.
As a class, bankers and financial workers are fairly mobile. Steelworkers from Scunthorpe or Port Talbot aren't.
I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t …… please all the people all of the time” (Poet John Lydgate as made famous by Abraham Lincoln - and Bob Dylan).
Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
The Tories are deeply divided, putting on a show of unity, a lot of their voters and members and some of their leaders have a lot of respect for another party, and their leader seems to be sailing by the seat of her pants, spouting slogans such as "Red White and Blue Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Lead the World Again" - in the absence of any clear policy on who on earth they want this country to throw in its lot with.
The Tories' strength is that however much they hate each other they are united by class hatred, which is a large part of what their class identity rests on, and even when they are knifing each other in the back, which they so dearly enjoy, they retain a degree of unity that the leadership of the Labour party doesn't.
I mean who does the Labour party represent? You could say the working class, but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it, do they? Social workers? Maybe all the administrators in the country who didn't go to private school and who would feel bad about poison-gassing the council estates.
You really don't understand Conservatism, do you.
Indeed, as a fairly working class Tory member I've never experienced what he describes the party as. In fact I've been asked to run as a councillor many times, I'm guessing either despite my modest background or maybe because of it.
What I find is that the Tories like people who grab opportunities and loathe people who blame others for their own failures.
This may come across as personal... But I don't mean it in that way.
At what point do you stop (or start) being working class?
From previous posts you work in finance/something similar as an expat in Switzerland and flew first class to Fiji on holiday?
In the US everyone thinks they are middle class. But in the UK i feel as though everyone wants to be working class/wants to say they came from a poor background.
I stopped being working class when I walked through the doors of my school for the first time, I think. At least that's when the idea of class seemed to not matter, if it ever did. The expectations from the school were the same for everyone, regardless of background or class. It's why I'm so annoyed with our education system and its low expectations culture.
I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
I have a lot less sympathy for my cosseted colleagues and peers than I do for someone who has seen their income stagnate or their jobs move to Eastern Europe. We've been living consequence free from EU membership for the last 10 years. In fact the huge migration has helped keep the cost of services down, my coffee from Pret every morning cost just £2.10, without mass migration that would not be possible.
As a class, bankers and financial workers are fairly mobile. Steelworkers from Scunthorpe or Port Talbot aren't.
It's not the workers who are/aren't mobile, it's the industries.
I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
I appreciate your position on the solution you're like to see us achieve for the UK but my question was about why you think the UK is different?
Hypothetically if there had been an in/out referendum in every EU member state last June and you could cast a vote everywhere, are there any other countries where you would have voted Leave (assuming you're voting in that country's interests)?
Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
The Tories are deeply divided, putting on a show of unity, a lot of their voters and members and some of their leaders have a lot of respect for another party, and their leader seems to be sailing by the seat of her pants, spouting slogans such as "Red White and Blue Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Lead the World Again" - in the absence of any clear policy on who on earth they want this country to throw in its lot with.
Oops. I've now recovered from my opium dream about Britain being dominated by considerations of class. Here is the corrected version.
"far finer in every way than the privately-educated types who consider themselves to be so entitled", in the words of a recent Carlton Club report. But a small yet so far ineradicable minority wishes to impose compulsory tuberculosis on single mothers and to kidnap any surviving prole-brats for use as domestic servants. What attitude true Tories should take towards those who eat peas off their knives and who shop in Aldi, Lidl and Primark - to love them or despise them? - is always a bone of great contention at any Tory gathering, especially in the stockbroker belt.
Happy now?
. I have impeccable, unimpeachable working class roots ( I shall spare you the full Four Yorkshireman thang). I *have* encountered echoes of that old Victorian split between the 'deserving' and 'undeserving' poor.
For those WC folk who have progressed, it's easy to do that reverse telescope thing and think that if *they* made it off the estate, then those that didn't are feckless, or lazy or whatever. My thought is 'There but for the grace of God etc'.
I had three breaks in my early life. Firstly, my parents were both autodidacts in their own way and we had books in the house. Secondly, I passed the 11-plus. Lastly, I stopped running with a very wild crowd in my mid-teens, before they started being 'proper' criminals.
Life on welfare is a shit life, by and large. Particularly if you're disabled, or sick (I've written before about my experience with PIP). We should do more to help people off welfare, without persecuting the sick - and we'll have to fund that by doing less for pensioners and middle-class families.
Now, please excuse me, it's time for my lunchtime baby.
I don't know anyone, outside of here who loves the EU. I know people who don't think it's a bad idea, or that, on balance, we're probably better off in it. But never love.
In Inner London, university cities, centres of government like Cardiff and Edinburgh, parts of the Stockbroker Belt, there are people who love the EU. And, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish Nationalist take the view that my enemy's enemy is my friend.
Agreed with all of that, except if there are any EU-loving parts of the stockbroker belt where people love the EU they must be very small. There weren't many Remain posters in places like Cobham.
Do any stockbrokers live in Cobham? Do stockbrokers in the old sense really exist anymore?
Surrey was pretty evenly divided. Ditto Hertfordshire. St. Alban's and North Herts voted Remain. WRT Hertsmere, I imagine Radlett, Bushey Heath, Elstree voted heavily Remain, Bushey North, Potters Bar, Borehamwood heavily Leave.
I guess my point is that in the old days, City workers lived in places like Cobham and commuted in every day.
That doesn't happen so much any more. If you work for any of the big City firms, then in all likelihood you're at your desk by 7am. If you're at somewhere like Goldman Sachs, it'll be more like 6am.
That doesn't mean that there aren't lots of people that commute into London every day from these places, just that the finance types (who are now deeply stressed 32 year olds who vaguely remember what their girlfriends look like), are now more likely to be coming in from Wandsworth or anywhere where you can get an Uber at 6:22am, and be at work in 20 minutes.
This is an exceptionally narrow definition of the City. Most people in financial services don't work for banks, and even there lots of roles don't require 80 hour working weeks.
Insurance in particular seems fairly immune to modernisation.
I don't know anyone, outside of here who loves the EU. I know people who don't think it's a bad idea, or that, on balance, we're probably better off in it. But never love.
In Inner London, university cities, centres of government like Cardiff and Edinburgh, parts of the Stockbroker Belt, there are people who love the EU. And, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish Nationalist take the view that my enemy's enemy is my friend.
Agreed with all of that, except if there are any EU-loving parts of the stockbroker belt where people love the EU they must be very small. There weren't many Remain posters in places like Cobham.
Do any stockbrokers live in Cobham? Do stockbrokers in the old sense really exist anymore?
Why on earth would a stockbroker put posters up in their windows? what an extraordinary way to assess level of belief.
Oops. I've now recovered from my opium dream about Britain being dominated by considerations of class. Here is the corrected version.
The Tories are tightly united, only putting on a show of division as a joke. None of their voters, members or supporters have any respect for UKIP. Their leader has great competence and vision, as illustrated by the profound principles to which she has declared her allegiance: "Union Jack Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Show Those Foreign Mofos Where It's At, Just Like We Did in er..." The party also benefits from a very clear foreign and trading policy.
The Tories' weakness is that however much they love each other and never stab each other in the back, not even when choosing a parliamentary candidate or leader, they are divided by their attitude towards the working class. Most consider the "proles" to be the "salt of the Earth", "far finer in every way than the privately-educated types who consider themselves to be so entitled", in the words of a recent Carlton Club report. But a small yet so far ineradicable minority wishes to impose compulsory tuberculosis on single mothers and to kidnap any surviving prole-brats for use as domestic servants. What attitude true Tories should take towards those who eat peas off their knives and who shop in Aldi, Lidl and Primark - to love them or despise them? - is always a bone of great contention at any Tory gathering, especially in the stockbroker belt.
Happy now?
Very droll, but it wasn't a Tory whose party leader has to issue a reprimand for white van/st George's cross tweeting, and it wasn't the Tories who had to investigate themselves for institutional anti semitism. You think these things are true of the Tories purely because they sounded true when Ben Elton said then in the 80s..
Yes, Labour looks in a very bad state and at present they seem unelectable. But if we can imagine putting the Tories, as they are now, into opposition, and leaving everything else equal (bear with me!), then exactly the same could be said about them! Does anyone disagree?
The Tories are deeply divided, putting on a show of unity, a lot of their voters and members and some of their leaders have a lot of respect for another party, and their leader seems to be sailing by the seat of her pants, spouting slogans such as "Red White and Blue Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Lead the World Again" - in the absence of any clear policy on who on earth they want this country to throw in its lot with.
The Tories' strength is that however much they hate each other they are united by class hatred, which is a large part of what their class identity rests on, and even when they are knifing each other in the back, which they so dearly enjoy, they retain a degree of unity that the leadership of the Labour party doesn't.
I mean who does the Labour party represent? You could say the working class, but they don't seem to be doing a very good job of it, do they? Social workers? Maybe all the administrators in the country who didn't go to private school and who would feel bad about poison-gassing the council estates.
Paragraph ends with a question to which the answer is no, and then it really goes down the rabbit hole.
Last line, can we frame that one for posterity?
If it does come to gassing the proles (and I have an open mind on this one) can the tories co-opt Emily Thornberry as Chief WWCfinder General?
WVM finder is I think the appropriate term for her ladyship.
I don't know anyone, outside of here who loves the EU. I know people who don't think it's a bad idea, or that, on balance, we're probably better off in it. But never love.
In Inner London, university cities, centres of government like Cardiff and Edinburgh, parts of the Stockbroker Belt, there are people who love the EU. And, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish Nationalist take the view that my enemy's enemy is my friend.
Agreed with all of that, except if there are any EU-loving parts of the stockbroker belt where people love the EU they must be very small. There weren't many Remain posters in places like Cobham.
Do any stockbrokers live in Cobham? Do stockbrokers in the old sense really exist anymore?
Cobham is exclusively F1 drivers and stockbrokers.
Stockbrokers still exist in the old sense although they may call themselves private bankers nowadays.
Private bankers still call them stockbrokers though
It's a sensible strategy to boost their support from 8%, but it's still a smaller pool than UKIP were fishing in.
I would have thought that there will be winners and losers from Brexit, and the LDs can appeal to those who ideologically love the EU (maybe 10% of the UK, but a higher proportion on this board), and those who feel they've lost out from exit (perhaps a further 10-20%).
There's another thing here about their strategy which is 'smart' (in that it will appeal to a subset of voters): anyone who loses their job in the next few years - irrespective of the real reason - will blame Brexit, because there will be a political party telling them that was the reason, and people love to be told it's not your fault.
I don't know anyone, outside of here who loves the EU. I know people who don't think it's a bad idea, or that, on balance, we're probably better off in it. But never love.
I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
There probably aren't more than about 50,000 people like that in the entire country.
Oops. I've now recovered from my opium dream about Britain being dominated by considerations of class. Here is the corrected version.
The Tories are tightly united, only putting on a show of division as a joke. None of their voters, members or supporters have any respect for UKIP. Their leader has great competence and vision, as illustrated by the profound principles to which she has declared her allegiance: "Union Jack Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Show Those Foreign Mofos Where It's At, Just Like We Did in er..." The party also benefits from a very clear foreign and trading policy.
The Tories' weakness is that however much they love each other and never stab each other in the back, not even when choosing a parliamentary candidate or leader, they are divided by their attitude towards the working class. Most consider the "proles" to be the "salt of the Earth", "far finer in every way than the privately-educated types who consider themselves to be so entitled", in the words of a recent Carlton Club report. But a small yet so far ineradicable minority wishes to impose compulsory tuberculosis on single mothers and to kidnap any surviving prole-brats for use as domestic servants. What attitude true Tories should take towards those who eat peas off their knives and who shop in Aldi, Lidl and Primark - to love them or despise them? - is always a bone of great contention at any Tory gathering, especially in the stockbroker belt.
Happy now?
Very droll, but it wasn't a Tory whose party leader has to issue a reprimand for white van/st George's cross tweeting, and it wasn't the Tories who had to investigate themselves for institutional anti semitism. You think these things are true of the Tories purely because they sounded true when Ben Elton said then in the 80s..
All parties are broad churches. I met a bunch of lovely Labour folk during EUref, and there's a good chunk of the Tory chinless wonder set that I find incredibly irritating. We do tend to mischaracterise each other, because the extremes (like la Thornberry) are more memorable/repellent. I don't think every Labour voter is Billy Bragg.
Apparently the ban *may* include those with green cards and H1B visas.
Insanity.
Anecdotally it already does. There are reports of green card holders being refused entry
I think they are being turned back by the airlines not refused entry. Presumably tgerecis a liability if they fly someone in who is turned away so they are being hyper cautious until the rules are clear
I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
Wouldn't people that really believed in it that much be happy to go and live in an EU country when we leave?
Apparently the ban *may* include those with green cards and H1B visas.
Insanity.
Anecdotally it already does. There are reports of green card holders being refused entry
Can that be legal? Can a president really overturn something like that so easily?
Thank goodness for Mother Theresa's restraining hand, if she hadn't dropped by who knows how far Trump would have gone. He might even have restricted entry conditions from Muslim countries in which he has business interests (and coincidentally with which HMG also appears to have substantial economic ties).
I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
Wouldn't people that really believed in it that much be happy to go and live in an EU country when we leave?
I'm gonna go all SeanT overboard but I want them locked up before the vote.
It's a very smart move. It keeps Labour's integrity with those who feel betrayed by the three line whip particularly as more join the rebellion but most important it's likely to hasten the departure of Corbyn which might make Labour a voice again.
I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
Wouldn't people that really believed in it that much be happy to go and live in an EU country when we leave?
They lose the right to do so.
Then they'll have to get a visa.
They don't need one at present.
2 years before the deportations begin of Britons that fail the MaxPB test? (outsourced to Switzerland)
Apparently the ban *may* include those with green cards and H1B visas.
Insanity.
Anecdotally it already does. There are reports of green card holders being refused entry
Can that be legal? Can a president really overturn something like that so easily?
Thank goodness for Mother Theresa's restraining hand, if she hadn't dropped by who knows how far Trump would have gone. He might even have restricted entry conditions from Muslim countries in which he has business interests (and coincidentally with which HMG also appears to have substantial economic ties).
Now now, Andrea Leadsom knows to her cost you can't make cheap political capital about Theresa'a inability to be a mother....
Apparently the ban *may* include those with green cards and H1B visas.
Insanity.
Anecdotally it already does. There are reports of green card holders being refused entry
Can that be legal? Can a president really overturn something like that so easily?
Thank goodness for Mother Theresa's restraining hand, if she hadn't dropped by who knows how far Trump would have gone. He might even have restricted entry conditions from Muslim countries in which he has business interests (and coincidentally with which HMG also appears to have substantial economic ties).
Now now, Andrea Leadsom knows to her cost you can't make cheap political capital about Theresa'a inability to be a mother....
One would have to be hyper sensitive to think that a comparison to Mother Teresa was a reference to child rearing abilities. A snowflake in fact.
I'm gonna go all SeanT overboard but I want them locked up before the vote.
I think 'traitors' is a leeeeeetle ott. however, it won't pass and in the meanwhile does further damage to the Labour brand so not all bad.
If "traitors" is OTT, how about "the Enemies of Democracy"?
It's not a question of 'traitor', it's the sheer numbnuttery of insisting on something we can't have, and can't promise.
Ultimately, the PLP are fucking stupid, they have no intellectual hinterland, they just can't think things through any longer. There used to be*giants* in their ranks. How the mighty have fallen.
I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
Wouldn't people that really believed in it that much be happy to go and live in an EU country when we leave?
I'm gonna go all SeanT overboard but I want them locked up before the vote.
I think 'traitors' is a leeeeeetle ott. however, it won't pass and in the meanwhile does further damage to the Labour brand so not all bad.
If "traitors" is OTT, how about "the Enemies of Democracy"?
Oh indeed - I voted remain but accept the result and wish to move on. i'm also a Tory and heartily applaud every piece of idiocy from the Labour party.
I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
Wouldn't people that really believed in it that much be happy to go and live in an EU country when we leave?
They lose the right to do so.
No they don't.
At the moment we have the freedom to move and live anywhere in the EU, after Brexit we lose that right.
I'm gonna go all SeanT overboard but I want them locked up before the vote.
It's a very smart move. It keeps Labour's integrity with those who feel betrayed by the three line whip particularly as more join the rebellion but most important it's likely to hasten the departure of Corbyn which might make Labour a voice again.
A majority of Labour seats voted Leave, if the Tories win Copeland and UKIP Stoke it will not be because Corbyn was not pro Remain enough
Another possibility though is what happened to the Tories post February 1975 when they ditched Heath - paricularly as Labour is in opposition. Whilst there would be mutterings, the hard Left would remain a small group within the PLP, and little prospect of a soft Left leader being successfully challenged or undermined. There was a lot of background chatter re-Thatcher 'not being up to it' from 75 - 79 but that did her very little damage in the end - indeed it probably strengthened her when she proved them wrong.
It's a sensible strategy to boost their support from 8%, but it's still a smaller pool than UKIP were fishing in.
I would have thought that there will be winners and losers from Brexit, and the LDs can appeal to those who ideologically love the EU (maybe 10% of the UK, but a higher proportion on this board), and those who feel they've lost out from exit (perhaps a further 10-20%).
There's another thing here about their strategy which is 'smart' (in that it will appeal to a subset of voters): anyone who loses their job in the next few years - irrespective of the real reason - will blame Brexit, because there will be a political party telling them that was the reason, and people love to be told it's not your fault.
I don't know anyone, outside of here who loves the EU. I know people who don't think it's a bad idea, or that, on balance, we're probably better off in it. But never love.
I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
There probably aren't more than about 50,000 people like that in the entire country.</blockquote
Oops. I've now recovered from my opium dream about Britain being dominated by considerations of class. Here is the corrected version.
The Tories are tightly united, only putting on a show of division as a joke. None of their voters, members or supporters have any respect for UKIP. Their leader has great competence and vision, as illustrated by the profound principles to which she has declared her allegiance: "Union Jack Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Show Those Foreign Mofos Where It's At, Just Like We Did in er..." The party also benefits from a very clear foreign and trading policy.
The Tories' weakness is that however much they love each other and never stab each other in the back, not even when choosing a parliamentary candidate or leader, they are divided by their attitude towards the working class. Most consider the "proles" to be the "salt of the Earth", "far finer in every way than the privately-educated types who consider themselves to be so entitled", in the words of a recent Carlton Club report. But a small yet so far ineradicable minority wishes to impose compulsory tuberculosis on single mothers and to kidnap any surviving prole-brats for use as domestic servants. What attitude true Tories should take towards those who eat peas off their knives and who shop in Aldi, Lidl and Primark - to love them or despise them? - is always a bone of great contention at any Tory gathering, especially in the stockbroker belt.
Happy now?
Very droll, but it wasn't a Tory whose party leader has to issue a reprimand for white van/st George's cross tweeting, and it wasn't the Tories who had to investigate themselves for institutional anti semitism. You think these things are true of the Tories purely because they sounded true when Ben Elton said then in the 80s..
All parties are broad churches. I met a bunch of lovely Labour folk during EUref, and there's a good chunk of the Tory chinless wonder set that I find incredibly irritating. We do tend to mischaracterise each other, because the extremes (like la Thornberry) are more memorable/repellent. I don't think every Labour voter is Billy Bragg.
I'm gonna go all SeanT overboard but I want them locked up before the vote.
It's a very smart move. It keeps Labour's integrity with those who feel betrayed by the three line whip particularly as more join the rebellion but most important it's likely to hasten the departure of Corbyn which might make Labour a voice again.
You might even find a female leader, provided of course one can be found that doesn't act like a 'bitch in heat' as you so delightfully put it.
I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
Wouldn't people that really believed in it that much be happy to go and live in an EU country when we leave?
They lose the right to do so.
No they don't.
At the moment we have the freedom to move and live anywhere in the EU, after Brexit we lose that right.
Wrong. The deal remains [sic] to be done. Just because you choose to be a doommonger doesn't make it so and as a tactic it's not got a good record! How do you suppose anyone moved abroad to work before we joined the EU?
those who didn't blamed society for their problems.
I seem to remember a Tory leader once said something about that.
"There is no such thing as society. There is living tapestry of men and women and people and the beauty of that tapestry and the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for ourselves and each of us prepared to turn round and help by our own efforts those who are unfortunate." - M. H. Thatcher, interview in Women's Own, 1987
I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
Wouldn't people that really believed in it that much be happy to go and live in an EU country when we leave?
They lose the right to do so.
No they don't.
At the moment we have the freedom to move and live anywhere in the EU, after Brexit we lose that right.
Wrong. The deal remains [sic] to be done. Just because you choose to be a doommonger doesn't make it so and as a tactic it's not got a good record! How do you suppose anyone moved abroad to work before we joined the EU?
Marie Curie didn't need the EU or ERASMUS to move from Poland to France
Oops. I've now recovered from my opium dream about Britain being dominated by considerations of class. Here is the corrected version.
The Tories are tightly united, only putting on a show of division as a joke. None of their voters, members or supporters have any respect for UKIP. Their leader has great competence and vision, as illustrated by the profound principles to which she has declared her allegiance: "Union Jack Brexit" and "Britain and the US Will Show Those Foreign Mofos Where It's At, Just Like We Did in er..." The party also benefits from a very clear foreign and trading policy.
The Tories' weakness is that however much they love each other and never stab each other in the back, not even when choosing a parliamentary candidate or leader, they are divided by their attitude towards the working class. Most consider the "proles" to be the "salt of the Earth", "far finer in every way than the privately-educated types who consider themselves to be so entitled", in the words of a recent Carlton Club report. But a small yet so far ineradicable minority wishes to impose compulsory tuberculosis on single mothers and to kidnap any surviving prole-brats for use as domestic servants. What attitude true Tories should take towards those who eat peas off their knives and who shop in Aldi, Lidl and Primark - to love them or despise them? - is always a bone of great contention at any Tory gathering, especially in the stockbroker belt.
Happy now?
Very droll, but it wasn't a Tory whose party leader has to issue a reprimand for white van/st George's cross tweeting, and it wasn't the Tories who had to investigate themselves for institutional anti semitism. You think these things are true of the Tories purely because they sounded true when Ben Elton said then in the 80s..
All parties are broad churches. I met a bunch of lovely Labour folk during EUref, and there's a good chunk of the Tory chinless wonder set that I find incredibly irritating. We do tend to mischaracterise each other, because the extremes (like la Thornberry) are more memorable/repellent. I don't think every Labour voter is Billy Bragg.
Some of the Labour Leave people were great.
Since they gave your then party money, I can see why you'd think that.
I'm gonna go all SeanT overboard but I want them locked up before the vote.
It's a very smart move. It keeps Labour's integrity with those who feel betrayed by the three line whip particularly as more join the rebellion but most important it's likely to hasten the departure of Corbyn which might make Labour a voice again.
A majority of Labour seats voted Leave, if the Tories win Copeland and UKIP Stoke it will not be because Corbyn was not pro Remain enough
If Labour win in Stoke and Copeland, then does it mean Corbyn's Brexit is vindicated?
Or more likely that other issues, such as hospital closures in Copeland matter more to voters?
Or just that local parties picking repected local councillors as candidates is a sign that the party is not as dominated by metropolitan snowflakes as PB Torys opine?
I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
Wouldn't people that really believed in it that much be happy to go and live in an EU country when we leave?
They lose the right to do so.
No they don't.
At the moment we have the freedom to move and live anywhere in the EU, after Brexit we lose that right.
Wrong. The deal remains [sic] to be done. Just because you choose to be a doommonger doesn't make it so and as a tactic it's not got a good record! How do you suppose anyone moved abroad to work before we joined the EU?
I've been an ex-pat twice (sorry, immigrant), my late wife beat me with three, and my little sister bettered both of us with four stints abroad, none of which were with EU countries. But how on earth did you accomplish this wonder without Freedom of Movement, I hear you cry. Let me tell you, my dear online friends: Magic. It was entirely down to our command of sorcery.
I'm gonna go all SeanT overboard but I want them locked up before the vote.
It's a very smart move. It keeps Labour's integrity with those who feel betrayed by the three line whip particularly as more join the rebellion but most important it's likely to hasten the departure of Corbyn which might make Labour a voice again.
A majority of Labour seats voted Leave, if the Tories win Copeland and UKIP Stoke it will not be because Corbyn was not pro Remain enough
If Labour win in Stoke and Copeland, then does it mean Corbyn's Brexit is vindicated?
Or more likely that other issues, such as hospital closures in Copeland matter more to voters?
Or just that local parties picking repected local councillors as candidates is a sign that the party is not as dominated by metropolitan snowflakes as PB Torys opine?
If Labour hold both it will be on non Brexit issues, if the Tories and UKIP win the seats it will largely be because of Brexit
I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
Wouldn't people that really believed in it that much be happy to go and live in an EU country when we leave?
They lose the right to do so.
No they don't.
At the moment we have the freedom to move and live anywhere in the EU, after Brexit we lose that right.
We lose the automatic right to do so, and I'm content with that. I would never deny other nations the right to impose immigration controls, in accordance with their own interests.
I know quite a few fervent believers in the European ideal. They're all people in their early to mid 20s who studied abroad at some point, and have more European friends than British ones.
Does the fact that the British in this demographic find the European ideal as attractive as any other Europeans in any way challenge your belief that there is something inherently incompatible about the UK in the EU? In other words do you think they are simply wrong about their own identity and suffering from some kind of delusion because of their personal experiences?
I have a lot of sympathy with this demographic, and understand where they're coming from. I find it reprehensible that their views are being as comprehensively discarded as those from Stoke or Sunderland were before the referendum.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
Wouldn't people that really believed in it that much be happy to go and live in an EU country when we leave?
They lose the right to do so.
No they don't.
At the moment we have the freedom to move and live anywhere in the EU, after Brexit we lose that right.
We lose the automatic right to do so, and I'm content with that. I would never deny other nations the right to impose immigration controls, in accordance with their own interests.
But why would the EU countries put restrictions on immigration of British citizens ?
We've been told endlessly that immigration is good for countries so EU countries would be damaging themselves in imposing restrictions.
Unless that is uncontrolled immigration isn't the boon that we've been told ...
Comments
But it's Merkel - so silence.
Curious.
Unlike in Germany, where the lovely Mrs Merkel wants them banned by law.
https://twitter.com/mims/status/825300762741833728
That doesn't happen so much any more. If you work for any of the big City firms, then in all likelihood you're at your desk by 7am. If you're at somewhere like Goldman Sachs, it'll be more like 6am.
That doesn't mean that there aren't lots of people that commute into London every day from these places, just that the finance types (who are now deeply stressed 32 year olds who vaguely remember what their girlfriends look like), are now more likely to be coming in from Wandsworth or anywhere where you can get an Uber at 6:22am, and be at work in 20 minutes.
Insanity.
I remember saying to someone before the vote that I hoped we could find a solution that satisfied 70% of people, not 51% of people. I still hope we can.
Not sure there are many in Copeland (maybe Sellafield?) or Stoke?
At what point do you stop (or start) being working class?
From previous posts you work in finance/something similar as an expat in Switzerland and flew first class to Fiji on holiday?
In the US everyone thinks they are middle class. But in the UK i feel as though everyone wants to be working class/wants to say they came from a poor background.
Plus the poll is Rasmussen...
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jan/27/thug-who-pushed-polish-man-onto-tube-tracks-jailed-for-10-years
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38775661
The victim was very, very lucky to be wearing shoes with rubber soles.
As a class, bankers and financial workers are fairly mobile. Steelworkers from Scunthorpe or Port Talbot aren't.
Can a president really overturn something like that so easily?
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t …… please all the people all of the time” (Poet John Lydgate as made famous by Abraham Lincoln - and Bob Dylan).
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/28/labour-mps-commons-motion-article-50-bill-heidi-alexander
I'm gonna go all SeanT overboard but I want them locked up before the vote.
Hypothetically if there had been an in/out referendum in every EU member state last June and you could cast a vote everywhere, are there any other countries where you would have voted Leave (assuming you're voting in that country's interests)?
For those WC folk who have progressed, it's easy to do that reverse telescope thing and think that if *they* made it off the estate, then those that didn't are feckless, or lazy or whatever. My thought is 'There but for the grace of God etc'.
I had three breaks in my early life. Firstly, my parents were both autodidacts in their own way and we had books in the house. Secondly, I passed the 11-plus. Lastly, I stopped running with a very wild crowd in my mid-teens, before they started being 'proper' criminals.
Life on welfare is a shit life, by and large. Particularly if you're disabled, or sick (I've written before about my experience with PIP). We should do more to help people off welfare, without persecuting the sick - and we'll have to fund that by doing less for pensioners and middle-class families.
Now, please excuse me, it's time for my lunchtime baby.
Insurance in particular seems fairly immune to modernisation.
https://twitter.com/gareth_snell/status/825328894534369280
https://twitter.com/gareth_snell/status/825298803074940928
2 years before the deportations begin of Britons that fail the MaxPB test? (outsourced to Switzerland)
A snowflake in fact.
Ultimately, the PLP are fucking stupid, they have no intellectual hinterland, they just can't think things through any longer. There used to be*giants* in their ranks. How the mighty have fallen.
- M. H. Thatcher, interview in Women's Own, 1987
Or more likely that other issues, such as hospital closures in Copeland matter more to voters?
Or just that local parties picking repected local councillors as candidates is a sign that the party is not as dominated by metropolitan snowflakes as PB Torys opine?
Ah yes. The Red Berets.
We've been told endlessly that immigration is good for countries so EU countries would be damaging themselves in imposing restrictions.
Unless that is uncontrolled immigration isn't the boon that we've been told ...