Despite some very nifty footwork by Theresa May a defeat was always the most likely result. The 'hand of God' which did for England all those years ago has just done it again. The Europeans kept their distance and their dignity. We didn't. Being photographed hand in hand was the moment the world cringed. Here we were friendless clinging on for dear life to a President with the international respect of a dung beetle.
@Roger I'm inclined to agree. Now she holds the hand that grabbed the pussy. The world's varying power centre's will have been unable to believe it at first. The imagery* is so extraordinary. Which isn't to deny how well May did in key respects. In other circumstances it would have been a strong performance from a new PM. But these aren't other circumstances. And May has now not only owned but is amplifying this ludicrous new national indeed international narrative. It's like a rapidly rising stock market bubble. You can enjoy it while it lasts but they always burst. The actual reality of our Brexit position is so far detatched from what the Anglospherists fantasists are now churny out the bubble popping is going to be very painful indeed. Let's just hunker down and wait.
Conclusion: May did very well.
Exactly. The visit was a great success.
The hand-holding photo is all they have to hold onto in contriving the disaster they were hoping for.
I have to say that my encounters with the planning regime have usually left me with the strong impression that the council officers were on the take. But perhaps Yellow Submarine's explanation is right.
I did once administer an estate, and gradually discovered that the deceased building control officer had made his money by passing sub-standard blocks of flats in return for kickbacks. I have no idea how widespread this might be.
Back in the 70's, my father was told he could get planning permission. For the right amount of money. He took it to our MP - Ken Clark - who to his eternal shame, didn't want to know.
@CD13 To very briefly take that seriously peaceful protest is part of democracy. But baring an Act of God I expect A50 to have been invoked by the date of the march. In many way it will be healthy if it has. How europeanism and the reunion movement transitions from defence of the status quo to counter cultural movement will be fascinating.
The Rejoin campaign will face the following obstacles, amongst others:
(1) Status quo bias (2) Lack of European identity in the UK (3) Requirement to join the euro (4) Requirement to join Schengen
Add to that the demonstrable, manifest incompetence of the EU; active hostility to the organisation amongst a large chunk of the electorate, which will only be reinforced by watching how the EU behaves; and the fact that they probably wouldn't want us back anyway.
I'm still trying to work out who replaces Jeremy Corbyn if he were suddenly ousted. I hope the Parliamentary Labour Party has given that more advance thought than it managed last summer.
Hilary Benn would be the smart choice. I don't believe any of the others have a chance of winning an election in 2020. If it was the MPs who chose I think he'd win
Despite some very nifty footwork by Theresa May a defeat was always the most likely result. The 'hand of God' which did for England all those years ago has just done it again. The Europeans kept their distance and their dignity. We didn't. Being photographed hand in hand was the moment the world cringed. Here we were friendless clinging on for dear life to a President with the international respect of a dung beetle.
@Roger I'm inclined to agree. Now she holds the hand that grabbed the pussy. The world's varying power centre's will have been unable to believe it at first. The imagery* is so extraordinary. Which isn't to deny how well May did in key respects. In other circumstances it would have been a strong performance from a new PM. But these aren't other circumstances. And May has now not only owned but is amplifying this ludicrous new national indeed international narrative. It's like a rapidly rising stock market bubble. You can enjoy it while it lasts but they always burst. The actual reality of our Brexit position is so far detatched from what the Anglospherists fantasists are now churny out the bubble popping is going to be very painful indeed. Let's just hunker down and wait.
Conclusion: May did very well.
Exactly. The visit was a great success.
The hand-holding photo is all they have to hold onto in contriving the disaster they were hoping for.
Remember when Osborne crying at a funeral* and Dave riding a horse were the end of their careers...
* only after a lucky escape for daring to tweet a picture of a posh burger.
"Anti-Brexit campaigners aim to stage UK's biggest protest march."
Oh, goody. An anti-democracy march. That'll probably be a first for the UK. The hangers-on will guarantee some structural damage. Should be fun. It'll be interesting to read the placards.
You could as easily call the anti Iraq invasion 'anti democratic' in that it had been voted on in parliament. A march hopes to move public opinion. Nothing wrong with that. In a democracy nothing should be set in stone
If they were clever about it (big ask) they would all have the same message on their placards and given the current mood it would best not be about immigration.
1m people carrying banners saying "Yes to the Single Market", for example, might nudge some people's Brexitometer.
The thing is that you know that is not what would be seen. Just like all the marches we have had so far, any march over Brexit will be dominated by one overriding message. The march you suggest will be overwhelmed by blue flags with gold stars on them. It will be a march in favour of the EU and against Brexit even if that is not what many people are actually marching for. It will simply be seen as discontents trying to overturn the result of the referendum.
And in all probability that will also be what the overwhelming percentage of people on the march will want.
An indicator of a divided nation I guess. Very few people think there's a middle ground between full membership of the EU and total disconnection.
Now let me see ... Nixon went to China, Blair supped with Ghadafi, The Queen shook hands with McGuinness ... That is statesmanlike.
But Trump is obviously far worse than those. Who does he rank with then? Hitler? Stalin?
A touch of hyperbole, perhaps?
There is an unbelievable amount of twattishness going on about this. One assumes because Trump didn't actually fail his first test of being Presidential in front of the world's press.
Their frustration is palpable. Personally, I'm surprised there isn't a petition to Westminster, demanding those White House steps be turned into a ramp.
The results of the by-elections on 23/2/17 are likely to have a significant impact on Labour's prospects in the next 1-2 years. Hopefully, both seats will be held by Labour, but if either are lost, the pressure on Corbyn will increase. Copeland seems to be the seat most at risk. Loss of Stoke Central would be a political earthquake.
Both Labour candidates backed Owen Smith though, so Corbynistas can blame defeat on lack of sufficiently pro Corbyn candidates
To add to my previous comment, being a rebel under Major looks like it was a lot of fun (for all the damage it did). Major's "bastards" very often had a huge smile on their faces and seemed to be having a lovely time. That's the very opposite of the case, with a couple of exceptions, for the Labour rebels - they always look as if they are in hell.
The Labour party, just like the Democrats in the US, is an emulsion of metropolitan social justice warriors blended with a dwindling number of blue collar types. Oil and water don't mix.
His lifelong training is not in real estate as in buy/sell an existing property, which is a zero sum game most of the time as you indicate, but in real estate development, which should nearly always be a win-win proposition. So the basis of this comment is entirely wrong.
The key to successful real-estate development is surely having friends in city hall planning departments. I am sure that not everyone is corrupt, but enriching oneself by using government contacts is not unknown. It is part of why the Donald has such empathy for Putin's kleptocratic oligarchy.
Another outing for the lazy old cliché that developers rely on bent decision makers in local authorities. In my 30 years of trying to get planning approvals for clients I have yet to come across a single scrap of evidence that this goes on. Anyone involved in the system will tell you how difficult it is to get consent, indeed successive Governments have striven to simplify the process so that the country can build the houses it so badly needs.
Because of the widespread misconception that planning is corrupt, as cheerfully and glibly espoused yet again by Dr Fox, most officials understandably go out of their way to apply policies to the letter so they are above suspicion. This of course serves to make the situation worse.
But then what do facts matter these days?
I've seen it happen, but very rarely. More insidious is failure, wilful or otherwise, to follow up on planning conditions -s.106 obligations stand out here.
Slightly differently there are two high profile cases at the moment in Newark and Swindon where developers want to destroy listed buildings for the land and have sat on those buildings for years (2 decades in the case of Newark) allowing them to deteriorate and collapse whilst the council does nothing to enforce listed building regulations. They are then in a position where they can say that the buildings cannot be saved and with the connivance of the council they get demolished. It takes time but it works unfortunately if you have the right council.
We seem to have had that a lot in our neck of the woods. There's a reason empty buildings get torched.......
Despite some very nifty footwork by Theresa May a defeat was always the most likely result. The 'hand of God' which did for England all those years ago has just done it again. The Europeans kept their distance and their dignity. We didn't. Being photographed hand in hand was the moment the world cringed. Here we were friendless clinging on for dear life to a President with the international respect of a dung beetle.
No. Having a positive relationship with the moat powerful man in the world is far more important than aligning with EU PC views
We established on here last night that this wasn't the objection of Continuity Remain.
As I expect I'll have to say a few times before we actually leave:
- there is relatively low manifest support for the EU in this country: perhaps 30%. - whilst much of this 30%, as witnessed by the Violet Elizabeth Bott brigade on here, will be cheering on EU punishment beatings during discussions, a subset will be appalled by the behaviour of Juncker et al, and be finally convinced of the merits of being better off out.
Residual goodwill to the EU will almost certainly fall far below the threshold needed for us to rejoin. We're out for good.
I've been a bit surprised by the anti-Corbyn vitriol I've seen from my formerly pro-Corbyn facebook friends (I made a lot of lefty friends when going to see loads of live music when I lived in london). They're livid over his A50 position; their desperation to stay in the EU triumphs even their love for a "proper" socialist. He can probably win most of them back by not backing it in the end, or if he does manage some meaningful amendments, but I suspect that some of his most ardent supporters are lost for good
Corbyn was re elected by Labour members by a landslide even after the Brexit vote and his lacklustre support for Remain
But it's only in the last few days that I've seen posts like this from some previously firm supporters-
"Well what a fucking rat bag that Corbyn turned out to be eh? I thought the reason for the opposition was to oppose the Government! Maybe I was just being naive, anyway to hell with him.... Just another appeaser in the end!"
This can't be good for him
They knew Smith was the pro EU candidate in September and still comfortably re elected Corbyn
Perhaps they believed him when he said he voted Remain?
He may well have done but he made clear in the debates with Smith Labour had to accept the Brexit vote
"Anti-Brexit campaigners aim to stage UK's biggest protest march."
Oh, goody. An anti-democracy march. That'll probably be a first for the UK. The hangers-on will guarantee some structural damage. Should be fun. It'll be interesting to read the placards.
Edit: What do you call a couple of million snowflakes on the street? A blizzard.
People have a right to march. I support them doing so. I just hope it's a peaceful, non-destructive march.
The pro-life marches in US were very civilised/didn't leave tons of litter either - and barely got a blink of TV coverage compared to rest - it just doesn't fit with the anti-Trump/liberal agenda.
The attendance was pitiful (less than a tenth of the Women's March) and it's an annual event. No conspiracy, just less news-worthy.
Despite some very nifty footwork by Theresa May a defeat was always the most likely result. The 'hand of God' which did for England all those years ago has just done it again. The Europeans kept their distance and their dignity. We didn't. Being photographed hand in hand was the moment the world cringed. Here we were friendless clinging on for dear life to a President with the international respect of a dung beetle.
@Roger I'm inclined to agree. Now she holds the hand that grabbed the pussy. The world's varying power centre's will have been unable to believe it at first. The imagery* is so extraordinary. Which isn't to deny how well May did in key respects. In other circumstances it would have been a strong performance from a new PM. But these aren't other circumstances. And May has now not only owned but is amplifying this ludicrous new national indeed international narrative. It's like a rapidly rising stock market bubble. You can enjoy it while it lasts but they always burst. The actual reality of our Brexit position is so far detatched from what the Anglospherists fantasists are now churny out the bubble popping is going to be very painful indeed. Let's just hunker down and wait.
Conclusion: May did very well.
Exactly. The visit was a great success.
The hand-holding photo is all they have to hold onto in contriving the disaster they were hoping for.
Remember when Osborne crying at a funeral* and Dave riding a horse were the end of their careers...
* only after a lucky escape for daring to tweet a picture of a posh burger.
I've been a bit surprised by the anti-Corbyn vitriol I've seen from my formerly pro-Corbyn facebook friends (I made a lot of lefty friends when going to see loads of live music when I lived in london). They're livid over his A50 position; their desperation to stay in the EU triumphs even their love for a "proper" socialist. He can probably win most of them back by not backing it in the end, or if he does manage some meaningful amendments, but I suspect that some of his most ardent supporters are lost for good
Corbyn was re elected by Labour members by a landslide even after the Brexit vote and his lacklustre support for Remain
True. Which is one measure of the scale of the task. But events ...
For all the shambles he's presided over, there hasn't been a high-profile electoral one, yet. He's consistently outperformed expectations. That's not to say he's done well: he hasn't. Net losses in local elections is a good indicator that things are far from well. But he's always surpassed minium expectations. If that changes, Corbyn will be under a lot more pressure.
As I said the fact anti Corbyn Labour candidates are standing in Copeland and Stoke makes it more difficult to blame on Corbyn
I've been a bit surprised by the anti-Corbyn vitriol I've seen from my formerly pro-Corbyn facebook friends (I made a lot of lefty friends when going to see loads of live music when I lived in london). They're livid over his A50 position; their desperation to stay in the EU triumphs even their love for a "proper" socialist. He can probably win most of them back by not backing it in the end, or if he does manage some meaningful amendments, but I suspect that some of his most ardent supporters are lost for good
Corbyn was re elected by Labour members by a landslide even after the Brexit vote and his lacklustre support for Remain
But it's only in the last few days that I've seen posts like this from some previously firm supporters-
"Well what a fucking rat bag that Corbyn turned out to be eh? I thought the reason for the opposition was to oppose the Government! Maybe I was just being naive, anyway to hell with him.... Just another appeaser in the end!"
This can't be good for him
They knew Smith was the pro EU candidate in September and still comfortably re elected Corbyn
Perhaps they believed him when he said he voted Remain?
He may well have done but he made clear in the debates with Smith Labour had to accept the Brexit vote
Probably too busy laughing at Owen thingy to notice what the messiah was actually saying.
More seriously how corbyn supporters can square lots of things is beyond me. He is apparently totally honest, but then caught lying with the train stunt, etc etc etc
@Charles I was basing my comments on having watched the video footage several times. Clearly we don't agree. Though I accept it's a matter of opinion not fact.
I'm not commenting on the politics . More wondering about the physical position and what it says. I think Trump has realised he is out of his depth at this level and needs to learn fast.
Despite some very nifty footwork by Theresa May a defeat was always the most likely result. The 'hand of God' which did for England all those years ago has just done it again. The Europeans kept their distance and their dignity. We didn't. Being photographed hand in hand was the moment the world cringed. Here we were friendless clinging on for dear life to a President with the international respect of a dung beetle.
@Roger I'm inclined to agree. Now she holds the hand that grabbed the pussy. The world's varying power centre's will have been unable to believe it at first. The imagery* is so extraordinary. Which isn't to deny how well May did in key respects. In other circumstances it would have been a strong performance from a new PM. But these aren't other circumstances. And May has now not only owned but is amplifying this ludicrous new national indeed international narrative. It's like a rapidly rising stock market bubble. You can enjoy it while it lasts but they always burst. The actual reality of our Brexit position is so far detatched from what the Anglospherists fantasists are now churny out the bubble popping is going to be very painful indeed. Let's just hunker down and wait.
Conclusion: May did very well.
Exactly. The visit was a great success.
The hand-holding photo is all they have to hold onto in contriving the disaster they were hoping for.
Remember when Osborne crying at a funeral* and Dave riding a horse were the end of their careers...
* only after a lucky escape for daring to tweet a picture of a posh burger.
Ha. I forgot the horse one.
Presumably most Labour/Media types don't understand that horses are pretty common outside of Camden and Richmond Park.
The results of the by-elections on 23/2/17 are likely to have a significant impact on Labour's prospects in the next 1-2 years. Hopefully, both seats will be held by Labour, but if either are lost, the pressure on Corbyn will increase. Copeland seems to be the seat most at risk. Loss of Stoke Central would be a political earthquake.
Both Labour candidates backed Owen Smith though, so Corbynistas can blame defeat on lack of sufficiently pro Corbyn candidates
If Stoke & Copeland are lost, then you might just as reasonably conclude that Remainers can't win in Leaverstan.
His lifelong training is not in real estate as in buy/sell an existing property, which is a zero sum game most of the time as you indicate, but in real estate development, which should nearly always be a win-win proposition. So the basis of this comment is entirely wrong.
The key to successful real-estate development is surely having friends in city hall planning departments. I am sure that not everyone is corrupt, but enriching oneself by using government contacts is not unknown. It is part of why the Donald has such empathy for Putin's kleptocratic oligarchy.
Another outing for the lazy old cliché that developers rely on bent decision makers in local authorities. In my 30 years of trying to get planning approvals for clients I have yet to come across a single scrap of evidence that this goes on. Anyone involved in the system will tell you how difficult it is to get consent, indeed successive Governments have striven to simplify the process so that the country can build the houses it so badly needs.
Because of the widespread misconception that planning is corrupt, as cheerfully and glibly espoused yet again by Dr Fox, most officials understandably go out of their way to apply policies to the letter so they are above suspicion. This of course serves to make the situation worse.
But then what do facts matter these days?
I've seen it happen, but very rarely. More insidious is failure, wilful or otherwise, to follow up on planning conditions -s.106 obligations stand out here.
Slightly differently there are two high profile cases at the moment in Newark and Swindon where developers want to destroy listed buildings for the land and have sat on those buildings for years (2 decades in the case of Newark) allowing them to deteriorate and collapse whilst the council does nothing to enforce listed building regulations. They are then in a position where they can say that the buildings cannot be saved and with the connivance of the council they get demolished. It takes time but it works unfortunately if you have the right council.
Can't you get a confiscation order via English Heritage?
"Anti-Brexit campaigners aim to stage UK's biggest protest march."
Oh, goody. An anti-democracy march. That'll probably be a first for the UK. The hangers-on will guarantee some structural damage. Should be fun. It'll be interesting to read the placards.
You could as easily call the anti Iraq invasion 'anti democratic' in that it had been voted on in parliament. A march hopes to move public opinion. Nothing wrong with that. In a democracy nothing should be set in stone
If they were clever about it (big ask) they would all have the same message on their placards and given the current mood it would best not be about immigration.
1m people carrying banners saying "Yes to the Single Market", for example, might nudge some people's Brexitometer.
The thing is that you know that is not what would be seen. Just like all the marches we have had so far, any march over Brexit will be dominated by one overriding message. The march you suggest will be overwhelmed by blue flags with gold stars on them. It will be a march in favour of the EU and against Brexit even if that is not what many people are actually marching for. It will simply be seen as discontents trying to overturn the result of the referendum.
And in all probability that will also be what the overwhelming percentage of people on the march will want.
An indicator of a divided nation I guess. Very few people think there's a middle ground between full membership of the EU and total disconnection.
The fault for that lies primarily with the Remain side of the referendum. They had to rely on the Gotterdammerung approach emphasising Brexit meant leaving everything - indeed they are still doing it now judging by yesterdays comments on Euratom and Erasmus. So they can hardly moan when people take them at their word and expect that we will leave everything.
It was a false claim that has come back to bite them (and those of us who did not agree with it)
@Charles I was basing my comments on having watched the video footage several times. Clearly we don't agree. Though I accept it's a matter of opinion not fact.
I'm not commenting on the politics . More wondering about the physical position and what it says. I think Trump has realised he is out of his depth at this level and needs to learn fast.
@CD13 To very briefly take that seriously peaceful protest is part of democracy. But baring an Act of God I expect A50 to have been invoked by the date of the march. In many way it will be healthy if it has. How europeanism and the reunion movement transitions from defence of the status quo to counter cultural movement will be fascinating.
The Rejoin campaign will face the following obstacles, amongst others:
(1) Status quo bias (2) Lack of European identity in the UK (3) Requirement to join the euro (4) Requirement to join Schengen
Add to that the demonstrable, manifest incompetence of the EU; active hostility to the organisation amongst a large chunk of the electorate, which will only be reinforced by watching how the EU behaves; and the fact that they probably wouldn't want us back anyway.
To be contrary, I would be fine with those conditions .
A strategic issue for the UK has always been the eventual coalescence of the EZ, which will eventually vote as one, and will always be able to out-QMV non-EZ nations. It doesn't matter whether that's in a decade or twenty years.
The UK has been a fish bone stuck in the EU gullet since well before Lisbon. The US got incredibly pissed off with us because our domestic difficulties over the EU meant that we were essentially engaged in 'run silent, run deep' on European matters. We abdicated leadership (or, possibly more accurate, we failed to expand the Paris-Berlin axis to include London).
Brexit is an opportunity for the EZ to escape its current local maxima and find a newer, more integrated and happier place (though it will need German citizens to swallow the idea of fiscal transfers). It's also a threat (leaving aside the risk that we might prosper), as our departure means that the Club Med countries can now reliably muster a blocking minority on QMV.
My view has been (for the last couple of years at least) that the UK needs to be all the way in, or all the way out (modulo I would have like us to exit via EFTA rather than straight to a CETA style arrangement).
His lifelong training is not in real estate as in buy/sell an existing property, which is a zero sum game most of the time as you indicate, but in real estate development, which should nearly always be a win-win proposition. So the basis of this comment is entirely wrong.
The key to successful real-estate development is surely having friends in city hall planning departments. I am sure that not everyone is corrupt, but enriching oneself by using government contacts is not unknown. It is part of why the Donald has such empathy for Putin's kleptocratic oligarchy.
Another outing for the lazy old cliché that developers rely on bent decision makers in local authorities. In my 30 years of trying to get planning approvals for clients I have yet to come across a single scrap of evidence that this goes on. Anyone involved in the
Because of the widespread misconception that planning is corrupt, as cheerfully and glibly espoused yet again by Dr Fox, most officials understandably go out of their way to apply policies to the letter so they are above suspicion. This of course serves to make the situation worse.
But then what do facts matter these days?
I've seen it happen, but very rarely. More insidious is failure, wilful or otherwise, to follow up on planning conditions -s.106 obligations stand out here.
Slightly differently there are two high profile cases at the moment in Newark and Swindon where developers want to destroy listed buildings for the land and have sat on those buildings for years (2 decades in the case of Newark) allowing them to deteriorate and collapse whilst the council does nothing to enforce listed building regulations. They are then in a position where they can say that the buildings cannot be saved and with the connivance of the council they get demolished. It takes time but it works unfortunately if you have the right council.
We seem to have had that a lot in our neck of the woods. There's a reason empty buildings get torched.......
A former client of mine got four years for paying a gang to torch his football stadium.
Despite some very nifty footwork by Theresa May a defeat was always the most likely result. The 'hand of God' which did for England all those years ago has just done it again. The Europeans kept their distance and their dignity. We didn't. Being photographed hand in hand was the moment the world cringed. Here we were friendless clinging on for dear life to a President with the international respect of a dung beetle.
No. Having a positive relationship with the moat powerful man in the world is far more important than aligning with EU PC views
We established on here last night that this wasn't the objection of Continuity Remain.
Their objection was that we'd voted for Brexit.
Are you comfortable with just how reliant Britain currently is on Donald Trump?
Slightly differently there are two high profile cases at the moment in Newark and Swindon where developers want to destroy listed buildings for the land and have sat on those buildings for years (2 decades in the case of Newark) allowing them to deteriorate and collapse whilst the council does nothing to enforce listed building regulations. They are then in a position where they can say that the buildings cannot be saved and with the connivance of the council they get demolished. It takes time but it works unfortunately if you have the right council.
We seem to have had that a lot in our neck of the woods. There's a reason empty buildings get torched.......
Rightly or wrongly it was a running joke in Newark for many years. Any notable building that caught fire, the first question was always "what are they wanting to build there then?"
I'm still trying to work out who replaces Jeremy Corbyn if he were suddenly ousted. I hope the Parliamentary Labour Party has given that more advance thought than it managed last summer.
Hilary Benn would be the smart choice. I don't believe any of the others have a chance of winning an election in 2020. If it was the MPs who chose I think he'd win
He is a useless wimpy talentless nohoper
He's the person whose sacking led to 170 Labour MPs resigning which shows he's popular with his colleagues. He has a famous name of the left and he made the the most notable speech in parliamet of the last few years..
If there was a lurking JFK around I'm sure they'd have found him by now
Despite some very nifty footwork by Theresa May a defeat was always the most likely result. The 'hand of God' which did for England all those years ago has just done it again. The Europeans kept their distance and their dignity. We didn't. Being photographed hand in hand was the moment the world cringed. Here we were friendless clinging on for dear life to a President with the international respect of a dung beetle.
No. Having a positive relationship with the moat powerful man in the world is far more important than aligning with EU PC views
We established on here last night that this wasn't the objection of Continuity Remain.
Their objection was that we'd voted for Brexit.
Are you comfortable with just how reliant Britain currently is on Donald Trump?
I'm deeply uncomfortable with how reliant you would make Britain on a bunch of socialist anti-democratic apparatchiks in Brussels.
"Anti-Brexit campaigners aim to stage UK's biggest protest march."
Oh, goody. An anti-democracy march. That'll probably be a first for the UK. The hangers-on will guarantee some structural damage. Should be fun. It'll be interesting to read the placards.
You could as easily call the anti Iraq invasion 'anti democratic' in that it had been voted on in parliament. A march hopes to move public opinion. Nothing wrong with that. In a democracy nothing should be set in stone
If they were clever about it (big ask) they would all have the same message on their placards and given the current mood it would best not be about immigration.
1m people carrying banners saying "Yes to the Single Market", for example, might nudge some people's Brexitometer.
The thing is that you know that is not what would be seen. Just like all the marches we have had so far, any march over Brexit will be dominated by one overriding message. The march you suggest will be overwhelmed by blue flags with gold stars on them. It will be a march in favour of the EU and against Brexit even if that is not what many people are actually marching for. It will simply be seen as discontents trying to overturn the result of the referendum.
And in all probability that will also be what the overwhelming percentage of people on the march will want.
An indicator of a divided nation I guess. Very few people think there's a middle ground between full membership of the EU and total disconnection.
Not entirely true. An awful lot of people haven't given it that much thought to start with.
Fierce debate/slanging matches about the EU are the preserve of the political and media classes, and a minority of very engaged citizens on each side of the argument. Much of the rest of the country may have views and concerns on the matter, but it doesn't exactly dominate their lives.
Despite the closeness of the referendum result, I don't buy this idea that the country is split down the middle into two warring camps. We might all pause to reflect on how much has changed in our lives and local communities as a result of the EU referendum; in my case, it has been practically nothing.
Most voters are completely disinterested in protest, one way or another. They just expect the Government to get on with implementing the decision, and making it work.
To add to my previous comment, being a rebel under Major looks like it was a lot of fun (for all the damage it did). Major's "bastards" very often had a huge smile on their faces and seemed to be having a lovely time. That's the very opposite of the case, with a couple of exceptions, for the Labour rebels - they always look as if they are in hell.
The Labour party, just like the Democrats in the US, is an emulsion of metropolitan social justice warriors blended with a dwindling number of blue collar types. Oil and water don't mix.
All parties have that sort of somewhat uneasy mix. The Tories have long had aristos protecting their position rubbing shoulders with aspirational working class types for example - and aspiration isn't necessarily consistent with entrencher privilege. The Lib Dems have had protest voters with very different positions and priorities.
That's the art of leadership. You give everyone in your coalition enough red meat to keep them reasonably happy. The groups you describe for Labour aren't natural pals, but nor are they fundamentally irreconcilable.
I'm still trying to work out who replaces Jeremy Corbyn if he were suddenly ousted. I hope the Parliamentary Labour Party has given that more advance thought than it managed last summer.
Hilary Benn would be the smart choice. I don't believe any of the others have a chance of winning an election in 2020. If it was the MPs who chose I think he'd win
He is a useless wimpy talentless nohoper
He's the person whose sacking led to 170 Labour MPs resigning which shows he's popular with his colleagues. He has a famous name of the left and he made the the most notable speech in parliamet of the last few years..
If there was a lurking JFK around I'm sure they'd have found him by now
Can't you get a confiscation order via English Heritage?
Yes but the enforcing authority is the district council. If they won't support it, it becomes very difficult to do anything. I was on the Civic Trust planning committee in Newark for many years and we fought this up hill and down dale but got nowhere. So the buildings sit in a twilight zone for years. The council can't actually pass permission for them to be demolished unless there is a very special reason like imminent danger of collapse but they refuse to enforce the law and insist the developer renovates them.
Despite some very nifty footwork by Theresa May a defeat was always the most likely result. The 'hand of God' which did for England all those years ago has just done it again. The Europeans kept their distance and their dignity. We didn't. Being photographed hand in hand was the moment the world cringed. Here we were friendless clinging on for dear life to a President with the international respect of a dung beetle.
No. Having a positive relationship with the moat powerful man in the world is far more important than aligning with EU PC views
We established on here last night that this wasn't the objection of Continuity Remain.
Their objection was that we'd voted for Brexit.
Are you comfortable with just how reliant Britain currently is on Donald Trump?
I'm deeply uncomfortable with how reliant you would make Britain on a bunch of socialist anti-democratic apparatchiks in Brussels.
When you can answer the question I posed without evasion and deflection with untruths, feel free to contribute further.
"Anti-Brexit campaigners aim to stage UK's biggest protest march."
Oh, goody. An anti-democracy march. That'll probably be a first for the UK. The hangers-on will guarantee some structural damage. Should be fun. It'll be interesting to read the placards.
You could as easily call the anti Iraq invasion 'anti democratic' in that it had been voted on in parliament. A march hopes to move public opinion. Nothing wrong with that. In a democracy nothing should be set in stone
If they were clever about it (big ask) they would all have the same message on their placards and given the current mood it would best not be about immigration.
1m people carrying banners saying "Yes to the Single Market", for example, might nudge some people's Brexitometer.
The thing is that you know that is not what would be seen. Just like all the marches we have had so far, any march over Brexit will be dominated by one overriding message. The march you suggest will be overwhelmed by blue flags with gold stars on them. It will be a march in favour of the EU and against Brexit even if that is not what many people are actually marching for. It will simply be seen as discontents trying to overturn the result of the referendum.
And in all probability that will also be what the overwhelming percentage of people on the march will want.
An indicator of a divided nation I guess. Very few people think there's a middle ground between full membership of the EU and total disconnection.
The fault for that lies primarily with the Remain side of the referendum. They had to rely on the Gotterdammerung approach emphasising Brexit meant leaving everything - indeed they are still doing it now judging by yesterdays comments on Euratom and Erasmus. So they can hardly moan when people take them at their word and expect that we will leave everything.
It was a false claim that has come back to bite them (and those of us who did not agree with it)
I have been pointing out that the Euratom issue is not of our making; it's a requirement of the EU amendment act (2008). I'm amused by all the squawking, given I doubt one person in a thousand had ever heard of Euratom before the referendum.
Now, twitter is full of people metaphorically stroking their chins and waxing lyrical on the grave import of Brexit on the important functioning of (say) EASA or the ECAA. What fun!
I've been a bit surprised by the anti-Corbyn vitriol I've seen from my formerly pro-Corbyn facebook friends (I made a lot of lefty friends when going to see loads of live music when I lived in london). They're livid over his A50 position; their desperation to stay in the EU triumphs even their love for a "proper" socialist. He can probably win most of them back by not backing it in the end, or if he does manage some meaningful amendments, but I suspect that some of his most ardent supporters are lost for good
As I've said on here a few times before, it's a big mistake to see Corbyn's support as monolithic. He won with a coalition of backers, only a few of whom are wedded to a hard left Labour takeover. When the end comes - as it will before 2020 - it will be relatively quick and union-inspired, with strong, more in sorrow than anger backing from Corbyn's erstwhile cheerleaders in the press.
It's also pretty clear that by and large Corbynistas do not get involved in CLP issues. That's why the PLP will remain mainly soft rather than hard left. In terms of discipline, my sense is that MPs will be relieved to return to relative normality. A new leader will have the full CLP to choose from to fill shadow posts because he/she will not carry Corbyn's baggage. That will be immensely helpful to unity. The ongoing rebels will return to being the cabal of hard leftists who always did it.
Then the really hard work will begin. Labour has wasted seven years, so far. Its aim at the next GE can only be to deny Ms May an overall majority and build from there. It'll take time, but with Corbyn gone it will be possible. The PM is now hand in hand with the US president. That will help.
I am not great on internal labour party politics but would an opening arise to depose Corbyn if Len McCluskey lost the forthcoming Unite election thereby making the Union more likely to deliver the 'coup de grace' ?
The results of the by-elections on 23/2/17 are likely to have a significant impact on Labour's prospects in the next 1-2 years. Hopefully, both seats will be held by Labour, but if either are lost, the pressure on Corbyn will increase. Copeland seems to be the seat most at risk. Loss of Stoke Central would be a political earthquake.
Both Labour candidates backed Owen Smith though, so Corbynistas can blame defeat on lack of sufficiently pro Corbyn candidates
If Stoke & Copeland are lost, then you might just as reasonably conclude that Remainers can't win in Leaverstan.
That has very serious implications for Labour.
On present polling Copeland should be a narrow Tory gain or tied and Stoke is the 12th UKIP target seat. If Labour come third or even fourth in the County council elections too and then lose Leigh then they know they have major problems
Despite some very nifty footwork by Theresa May a defeat was always the most likely result. The 'hand of God' which did for England all those years ago has just done it again. The Europeans kept their distance and their dignity. We didn't. Being photographed hand in hand was the moment the world cringed. Here we were friendless clinging on for dear life to a President with the international respect of a dung beetle.
No. Having a positive relationship with the moat powerful man in the world is far more important than aligning with EU PC views
We established on here last night that this wasn't the objection of Continuity Remain.
Their objection was that we'd voted for Brexit.
Are you comfortable with just how reliant Britain currently is on Donald Trump?
I'm deeply uncomfortable with how reliant you would make Britain on a bunch of socialist anti-democratic apparatchiks in Brussels.
When you can answer the question I posed without evasion and deflection with untruths, feel free to contribute further.
I'm comfortable with us being somewhat reliant on Trump. We both need a trade deal. He is a genuine Anglophile (very much unlike Obama). We are suffering a mild dose of Trump derangement syndrome here in the UK. Having a good relationship with him and with the US will be good for the UK. I wish him and Mrs May well.
I've been a bit surprised by the anti-Corbyn vitriol I've seen from my formerly pro-Corbyn facebook friends (I made a lot of lefty friends when going to see loads of live music when I lived in london). They're livid over his A50 position; their desperation to stay in the EU triumphs even their love for a "proper" socialist. He can probably win most of them back by not backing it in the end, or if he does manage some meaningful amendments, but I suspect that some of his most ardent supporters are lost for good
As I've said on here a few times before, it's a big mistake to see Corbyn's support as monolithic. He won with a coalition of backers, only a few of whom are wedded to a hard left Labour takeover. When the end comes - as it will before 2020 - it will be relatively quick and union-inspired, with strong, more in sorrow than anger backing from Corbyn's erstwhile cheerleaders in the press.
It's also pretty clear that by and large Corbynistas do not get involved in CLP issues. That's why the PLP will remain mainly soft rather than hard left. In terms of discipline, my sense is that MPs will be relieved to return to relative normality. A new leader will have the full CLP to choose from to fill shadow posts because he/she will not carry Corbyn's baggage. That will be immensely helpful to unity. The ongoing rebels will return to being the cabal of hard leftists who always did it.
Then the really hard work will begin. Labour has wasted seven years, so far. Its aim at the next GE can only be to deny Ms May an overall majority and build from there. It'll take time, but with Corbyn gone it will be possible. The PM is now hand in hand with the US president. That will help.
I am not great on internal labour party politics but would an opening arise to depose Corbyn if Len McCluskey lost the forthcoming Unite election thereby making the Union more likely to deliver the 'coup de grace' ?
Len is likely to win as turnout for union leadership votes is very low and dominated by far left voters. If by some miracle he loses it's all over for Corbyn.
Despite some very nifty footwork by Theresa May a defeat was always the most likely result. The 'hand of God' which did for England all those years ago has just done it again. The Europeans kept their distance and their dignity. We didn't. Being photographed hand in hand was the moment the world cringed. Here we were friendless clinging on for dear life to a President with the international respect of a dung beetle.
No. Having a positive relationship with the moat powerful man in the world is far more important than aligning with EU PC views
We established on here last night that this wasn't the objection of Continuity Remain.
Their objection was that we'd voted for Brexit.
Are you comfortable with just how reliant Britain currently is on Donald Trump?
I'd split that into two parts.
We clearly have to continue to strive to be America's most important Atlantic ally, for political, military, intelligence and business reasons. The much-mocked special relationship is largely down to the huge number of personal relationships built on decades of bilateral working & number of integrees, particularly in the Five Eyes community. All countries to this to a certain extent, but none to the degree that the UK does.
Am I happy that POTUS is Donald Trump? Of course not, shame on you for asking such a leading question . I'd simply add that Trump is just one guy, albeit a very powerful one. Mattis and Tillerson are probably as important when it comes our national interests in other spheres, and our relationships further down the chain are, in aggregate, more important still.
It's different times when the promoted takeaway from a UK PM's visit to Washington is that the US president is "100% behind NATO". Subtext, presumably: I persuaded him. In any case he didn't say he was 100% - he just didn't contradict May's statement to say he was. There's a difference.
May was in a difficult position and did the best she could. That hand-holding - prompted by Trump, I think - could come back to haunt her, though. There was a time when the British public loved Blair's relationship with Bush, of course. If it turns out Trump is not, in fact, 100% behind NATO and that our trade deal is a dictation not a negotiation it will be problematic.
Sad to see that Sir John Hurt ("don't go in there, Uncle Claudius") has died.
Yes RIP from Alien to Alan Clark to King Ralph to Indiana Jones he had a wide repertoire
I've only just found that Gimli had a role in I Claudius as well, as Macro.
That really was the most fabulous series. Of course Jean Luc Picard, King Théoden, The Saint and Prince Vultan were also caught up in those Imperial troubles. :-)
Despite some very nifty footwork by Theresa May a defeat was always the most likely result. The 'hand of God' which did for England all those years ago has just done it again. The Europeans kept their distance and their dignity. We didn't. Being photographed hand in hand was the moment the world cringed. Here we were friendless clinging on for dear life to a President with the international respect of a dung beetle.
No. Having a positive relationship with the moat powerful man in the world is far more important than aligning with EU PC views
We established on here last night that this wasn't the objection of Continuity Remain.
Their objection was that we'd voted for Brexit.
Are you comfortable with just how reliant Britain currently is on Donald Trump?
You give the idea we are friendless and while that may be true in some 'bitter' EU countries I would suggest that the Baltic Countries will have been relieved at TM making Trump publically commit 100% to NATO and there are British Troops presently in Estonia. We also have friends in Scandanavia and the Low Countries but also our old best friends of Australia, NZ, India, and Canada .
As things progress with the serving of A50 the more pragmatic heads will get down to do a fair deal without doubt. The report that Merkel has demanded a mass of new EU trade deals far away from the EU but that the UK on her doorstep will be isolated is only for those, and there are many, who actively want the UK to fail so that in some way we can go back on our knees begging to re-join is just fanciful
As I expect I'll have to say a few times before we actually leave:
- there is relatively low manifest support for the EU in this country: perhaps 30%. - whilst much of this 30%, as witnessed by the Violet Elizabeth Bott brigade on here, will be cheering on EU punishment beatings during discussions, a subset will be appalled by the behaviour of Juncker et al, and be finally convinced of the merits of being better off out.
Residual goodwill to the EU will almost certainly fall far below the threshold needed for us to rejoin. We're out for good.
Juncker's role will be peripheral. The negotiation will be between nation states. There'll be no punishment. That's in no-one's intetests. But if you want to leave a club, clearly you lose the benefits of membership when you do. What we'll lose is our membership of the single market and customs union. Even without tariffs that will come at a cost. The issue is much more about what we can get elsewhere to make up for that.
@Charles I was basing my comments on having watched the video footage several times. Clearly we don't agree. Though I accept it's a matter of opinion not fact.
I'm not commenting on the politics . More wondering about the physical position and what it says. I think Trump has realised he is out of his depth at this level and needs to learn fast.
You think he's found a British mentor?
May be for a while. But that gives May a chance to secure benefits for the UK. When someone is on the ground and being kicked by everyone a friendly hand means a lot
Despite some very nifty footwork by Theresa May a defeat was always the most likely result. The 'hand of God' which did for England all those years ago has just done it again. The Europeans kept their distance and their dignity. We didn't. Being photographed hand in hand was the moment the world cringed. Here we were friendless clinging on for dear life to a President with the international respect of a dung beetle.
No. Having a positive relationship with the moat powerful man in the world is far more important than aligning with EU PC views
We established on here last night that this wasn't the objection of Continuity Remain.
Their objection was that we'd voted for Brexit.
Are you comfortable with just how reliant Britain currently is on Donald Trump?
I'm deeply uncomfortable with how reliant you would make Britain on a bunch of socialist anti-democratic apparatchiks in Brussels.
When you can answer the question I posed without evasion and deflection with untruths, feel free to contribute further.
"Are you comfortable with just how reliant Britain currently is on Donald Trump?" is a classic "have you stopped beating your wife" question. So how reliant is Britain (meaning the UK?) currently on Donald Trump? How different would the visit have been if it had been by Cameron after an In vote last year? And do you expect any other European leader to decline or postpone their first invitation from Trump?
Not entirely true. An awful lot of people haven't given it that much thought to start with.
Fierce debate/slanging matches about the EU are the preserve of the political and media classes, and a minority of very engaged citizens on each side of the argument. Much of the rest of the country may have views and concerns on the matter, but it doesn't exactly dominate their lives.
Despite the closeness of the referendum result, I don't buy this idea that the country is split down the middle into two warring camps. We might all pause to reflect on how much has changed in our lives and local communities as a result of the EU referendum; in my case, it has been practically nothing.
Most voters are completely disinterested in protest, one way or another. They just expect the Government to get on with implementing the decision, and making it work.
I think that's right - the media like to play up dramatic chasms but real life is less exciting. Certainly in canvassing (in a strongly Leave area) the issue is hardly coming up. Some friends feel very strongly (as do I) but most never mention it. It is still more salient than most of politics in that a significant minority talk about it in social contexts, but it's not War of the Roses.
As Sir Passmore says, too, the wings of Labour aren't irreconcilable - in particular PLP members are conscious that a degree of civility and cooperation is needed now to avoid meltdown: it's one thing to try to mount a coup with what you think is a chance of success, another to be openly hostile on a routine basis, and there is no shortage of issues on which the wings almost entirely agree.
Sad to see that Sir John Hurt ("don't go in there, Uncle Claudius") has died.
Yes RIP from Alien to Alan Clark to King Ralph to Indiana Jones he had a wide repertoire
I've only just found that Gimli had a role in I Claudius as well, as Macro.
That really was the most fabulous series. Of course Jean Luc Picard, King Théoden, The Saint and Prince Vultan were also caught up in those Imperial troubles. :-)
Hopefully, someone will make a series covering the 15 or so years from the end of Rome, to the start of I Claudius.
Despite some very nifty footwork by Theresa May a defeat was always the most likely result. The 'hand of God' which did for England all those years ago has just done it again. The Europeans kept their distance and their dignity. We didn't. Being photographed hand in hand was the moment the world cringed. Here we were friendless clinging on for dear life to a President with the international respect of a dung beetle.
No. Having a positive relationship with the moat powerful man in the world is far more important than aligning with EU PC views
We established on here last night that this wasn't the objection of Continuity Remain.
Their objection was that we'd voted for Brexit.
Are you comfortable with just how reliant Britain currently is on Donald Trump?
You give the idea we are friendless and while that may be true in some 'bitter' EU countries I would suggest that the Baltic Countries will have been relieved at TM making Trump publically commit 100% to NATO and there are British Troops presently in Estonia. We also have friends in Scandanavia and the Low Countries but also our old best friends of Australia, NZ, India, and Canada .
As things progress with the serving of A50 the more pragmatic heads will get down to do a fair deal without doubt. The report that Merkel has demanded a mass of new EU trade deals far away from the EU but that the UK on her doorstep will be isolated is only for those, and there are many, who actively want the UK to fail so that in some way we can go back on our knees begging to re-join is just fanciful
There is little to no political cost for Trump if he rows back from the 100% support he never publicly said he gives to NATO. For May, though, it will be a problem if he does.
Then the really hard work will begin. Labour has wasted seven years, so far. Its aim at the next GE can only be to deny Ms May an overall majority and build from there. It'll take time, but with Corbyn gone it will be possible. The PM is now hand in hand with the US president. That will help.
I see the latest regeneration of the PB Tories has reached full, fawning coalescence.
The creatures outside looked from Trumper to Mayette, and from Mayette to Brexiteer, and from Brexiteer to Unionist; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Can't you get a confiscation order via English Heritage?
Yes but the enforcing authority is the district council. If they won't support it, it becomes very difficult to do anything. I was on the Civic Trust planning committee in Newark for many years and we fought this up hill and down dale but got nowhere. So the buildings sit in a twilight zone for years. The council can't actually pass permission for them to be demolished unless there is a very special reason like imminent danger of collapse but they refuse to enforce the law and insist the developer renovates them.
Couldn't you get a court order to require the council to act of that are refusing to enforce a legal instrument?
"Anti-Brexit campaigners aim to stage UK's biggest protest march."
Oh, goody. An anti-democracy march. That'll probably be a first for the UK. The hangers-on will guarantee some structural damage. Should be fun. It'll be interesting to read the placards.
Edit: What do you call a couple of million snowflakes on the street? A blizzard.
People have a right to march. I support them doing so. I just hope it's a peaceful, non-destructive march.
The pro-life marches in US were very civilised/didn't leave tons of litter either - and barely got a blink of TV coverage compared to rest - it just doesn't fit with the anti-Trump/liberal agenda.
The attendance was pitiful (less than a tenth of the Women's March) and it's an annual event. No conspiracy, just less news-worthy.
Still, these guys make up for it in other ways.
'In the United States, violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eleven people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, a police officer, two people (unclear of their connection), and a clinic escort'
'According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, 13 wounded,[12] 100 butyric acid stink bomb attacks, 373 physical invasions, 41 bombings, 655 anthrax threats,[13] and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.'
Can't you get a confiscation order via English Heritage?
Yes but the enforcing authority is the district council. If they won't support it, it becomes very difficult to do anything. I was on the Civic Trust planning committee in Newark for many years and we fought this up hill and down dale but got nowhere. So the buildings sit in a twilight zone for years. The council can't actually pass permission for them to be demolished unless there is a very special reason like imminent danger of collapse but they refuse to enforce the law and insist the developer renovates them.
Couldn't you get a court order to require the council to act of that are refusing to enforce a legal instrument?
Yep but the costs involved are too high. We thought there was progress being made on this last year but then English Heritage got split into The English Heritage Trust and Historic England which does all the statutory stuff. Since then everything seems to have ground to a halt. The developers have put in another application for demolition to be heard in February. They are claiming it is unreasonable to demand that the building be saved as it will now cost £900,000. Of course this conveniently ignores the fact that they have allowed it to get into that state in the first place.
I have been pointing out that the Euratom issue is not of our making;
It's entirely of our making. Apart from that...
It's a fair point. We should never have had that silly referendum. Then we could have been in Euratom forever and ever *rends clothes, tears hair*. Fuck those Brexiteers.
Then the really hard work will begin. Labour has wasted seven years, so far. Its aim at the next GE can only be to deny Ms May an overall majority and build from there. It'll take time, but with Corbyn gone it will be possible. The PM is now hand in hand with the US president. That will help.
I see the latest regeneration of the PB Tories has reached full, fawning coalescence.
The creatures outside looked from Trumper to Mayette, and from Mayette to Brexiteer, and from Brexiteer to Unionist; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Cameron shook hands with King Abdullah Brown shook hands with Putin Blair shook hands with Gaddafi Jack Straw shook hands with Robert Mugabe May shook hands with Trump
Which one of those foreign leaders killed the fewest?
Trump is a first class bell-end but making a fuss over a handshake won't make the slightest dent outside of those who obsess about politics.
Mr. M, no. I think it may have the record for being the longest serving item on my Amazon saved for later list (either that or a Roman myths book by Graves).
Can't you get a confiscation order via English Heritage?
Yes but the enforcing authority is the district council. If they won't support it, it becomes very difficult to do anything. I was on the Civic Trust planning committee in Newark for many years and we fought this up hill and down dale but got nowhere. So the buildings sit in a twilight zone for years. The council can't actually pass permission for them to be demolished unless there is a very special reason like imminent danger of collapse but they refuse to enforce the law and insist the developer renovates them.
Couldn't you get a court order to require the council to act of that are refusing to enforce a legal instrument?
Yep but the costs involved are too high. We thought there was progress being made on this last year but then English Heritage got split into The English Heritage Trust and Historic England which does all the statutory stuff. Since then everything seems to have ground to a halt. The developers have put in another application for demolition to be heard in February. They are claiming it is unreasonable to demand that the building be saved as it will now cost £900,000. Of course this conveniently ignores the fact that they have allowed it to get into that state in the first place.
If you can demonstrate non-compliance with previous instructions you should be fine i think
Mr. M, no. I think it may have the record for being the longest serving item on my Amazon saved for later list (either that or a Roman myths book by Graves).
Given your chosen genre, I think you'd find it inspiring.
Cameron shook hands with King Abdullah Brown shook hands with Putin Blair shook hands with Gaddafi Jack Straw shook hands with Robert Mugabe May shook hands with Trump
Which one of those foreign leaders killed the fewest?
Trump is a first class bell-end but making a fuss over a handshake won't make the slightest dent outside of those who obsess about politics.
Holding hands is not shaking hands. I feel sorry for May on this. Trump reached out, she could not ignore him. But people will forget that. All they will see is the photo. She is now hand in hand with him. And the fawning headlines in the Tory press don't help.
I see the latest regeneration of the PB Tories has reached full, fawning coalescence.
The creatures outside looked from Trumper to Mayette, and from Mayette to Brexiteer, and from Brexiteer to Unionist; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
I don't see that at all, I am seeing acceptance of the fact that Trump is POTUS. I don't like his manners, morals or appearance any more than you do, but we must focus on the essentials. I was thinking that it is a shame that counterfactuals are untestable, because although it is clearly true that Ed Miliband PM or David Cameron PM would have behaved no differently than May (adjusting the handholding a bit for gender reasons), it cannot be proved. But of course there is a delicious real-world test case available: so lets' wait and see whether Nicola declines or postpones her first invitation from the D.
Despite some very nifty footwork by Theresa May a defeat was always the most likely result. The 'hand of God' which did for England all those years ago has just done it again. The Europeans kept their distance and their dignity. We didn't. Being photographed hand in hand was the moment the world cringed. Here we were friendless clinging on for dear life to a President with the international respect of a dung beetle.
No. Having a positive relationship with the moat powerful man in the world is far more important than aligning with EU PC views
We established on here last night that this wasn't the objection of Continuity Remain.
Their objection was that we'd voted for Brexit.
Are you comfortable with just how reliant Britain currently is on Donald Trump?
You give the idea we are friendless and while that may be true in some 'bitter' EU countries I would suggest that the Baltic Countries will have been relieved at TM making Trump publically commit 100% to NATO and there are British Troops presently in Estonia. We also have friends in Scandanavia and the Low Countries but also our old best friends of Australia, NZ, India, and Canada .
As things progress with the serving of A50 the more pragmatic heads will get down to do a fair deal without doubt. The report that Merkel has demanded a mass of new EU trade deals far away from the EU but that the UK on her doorstep will be isolated is only for those, and there are many, who actively want the UK to fail so that in some way we can go back on our knees begging to re-join is just fanciful
There is little to no political cost for Trump if he rows back from the 100% support he never publicly said he gives to NATO. For May, though, it will be a problem if he does.
He will not row back, indeed his defence chief is fully behind NATO. He will though, with TM support, demand the 2% contribution from all member countries
The hand hold is quite frankly nothing but someone holding out a hand to help the other down a few steps and if you notice he taps her hand at the bottom of the steps so that she is ok to let go.
The trip has been a great success widely appreciated by most commentators both here and in the US and she has enhanced her own reputation enormously.
As I am typing this she is laying a wreath in Ankara. She has some stamina to have done so much in the last few days and while some may disagree, we can be proud that we have a capable and confident Prime Minister forging a new role for the UK in the world. Long 'may' it continue
The most significant part of the presser for me was not the NATO stuff, but Trump's vehemence on the Mexico situation, about the US being ripped off by everyone and about always putting America first. I don't see how you get a meaningful trade deal from that.
I, Claudius is a fantastic series. [Livia was one of the inspirations for Princess Karena, the lead protagonist in Kingdom Asunder].
I, Claudius was perfection - and a great book too. I'd a pint with Mr Hurt in a crappy London pub back in the 90s - he held court and looked near death then.
Amazed he lasted so long. Great actor - his Caligula was chilling.
Holding hands is not shaking hands. I feel sorry for May on this. Trump reached out, she could not ignore him. But people will forget that. All they will see is the photo. She is now hand in hand with him. And the fawning headlines in the Tory press don't help.
I can see it as one of those ethics questions like "If you could kill baby Hitler, would you?"
"If you could trip Donald Trump down a flight of stairs hours before he signed an executive order banning refugees, would you?"
Will PB's favourite Scottish Tory have to make a public atonement for calling the mother of the most powerful man in the world and the Brits' bestest friend a whore?
Cameron shook hands with King Abdullah Brown shook hands with Putin Blair shook hands with Gaddafi Jack Straw shook hands with Robert Mugabe May shook hands with Trump
Which one of those foreign leaders killed the fewest?
Trump is a first class bell-end but making a fuss over a handshake won't make the slightest dent outside of those who obsess about politics.
Alex Salmond shook hands with Trump.
There are plenty of photos of a grinning Alex with a grinning Trump.
Of course, they later fell out.
But, I suspect TM can be equally adroit, if need be.
I think the "Speak softly but carry a big stick," is still the best motto for the POTUS.
Obama spoke softly but carried a baby's rattle, Trump makes no attempt to speak softly. Trump makes himself a target while Barry remains Mr Nice Guy.
There is a section of the UK left which is forever Yank-ophobic. Obama quelled some of their rhetoric, but Trump is a godsend. Perhaps because we've had the two extremes consecutively, Trump will never be given any credit by them. As he exhibits a touch of paranoia too, this won't change.
But the USA remains top dog which exacerbates the far Left's bile. Yes, Trump is an oddity, the bar room braggart, but he's no fool. he knows what he's doing. Something I was never sure about with Dubya.
A long spoon may be needed, but a close relationship is a good thing. Even if it's taken a Tory woman to begin it.
Been a while since I have commented, though I do still lurk.
I see a failure of imagination here across the board as to how radical change could emerge in the UK.
To be honest I think the Cheerleaders for May have got it stunningly wrong. Trump is the most unpopular President in America since these things started to be recorded. In the UK he is more or less despised across the political spectrum. May's hurried and supplicatory visit looks awful. Meanwhile the unspoken assumption that the EU will simply collapse and go away is looking pretty unsupported by the facts too. So in three years time, with Trump checkmated by Congress and the EU past the worst, the Hard Brexit policy could well be going to look like a dogs breakfast for a friendless UK.
Keir Starmer is the only grown up on the Labour front bench at the moment, and even he is making significant mistakes... More important than whether Labour hold the by-election seats is what happens in the locals in May. The big news may not be a Labour rout but the return of the Lib Dems. Then the political momentum could turn strongly into a Remain/Return narrative.
People are pretty dismissive of Corbyn, but they do not love Mrs May either. So it seems to me that we could absolutely see the long heralded political realignment actually happen. Those who laughed at the surge for Nick Clegg in 2010 - especially when it didn't happen-may find that Farron goes on to higher things- the electorate are pretty volatile and increasingly pissed off- the Lib Dems are getting points even among soft leavers for sticking to their European guns, and if May's gamble on Trumpistan turns out to be a failure, then vast change could happen very quickly.
Speculation is also rife about who made the complaint. Some in the SNP are concerned it may have been someone inside the party given the detailed financial nature of the allegations
It occurs to me how many (probably most) of the people who are in meltdown over May going to meet Trump also belong to the Eurofanatical, left-liberal, Merkel worship cult.
They must be hoping desperately that Macron wins the French presidency. Otherwise, watching these self-same people trying to make excuses for Mutti making eyes and holding hands with either Francois Fillon (hard right, pseudo-Thatcherite, corrupt and pro-Putin) or Marine Le Pen (far right, Europhobic, pro-Brexit and pro-Putin) - which she will - is going to be excruciating for them. And excruciatingly funny for many others.
Miss Plato, personally, Livia was my favourite, but Caligula and Augustus were both excellent as well. Absolutely fantastic cast in I, Claudius.
Mr. M, is Count Belisarius history or fiction? I'm familiar with Belisarius' doings, of course (from Gibbon, Norwich and Procopius, although I suspect the latter might be just a shade negative).
It occurs to me how many (probably most) of the people who are in meltdown over May going to meet Trump also belong to the Eurofanatical, left-liberal, Merkel worship cult.
They must be hoping desperately that Macron wins the French presidency. Otherwise, watching these self-same people trying to make excuses for Mutti making eyes and holding hands with either Francois Fillon (hard right, pseudo-Thatcherite, corrupt and pro-Putin) or Marine Le Pen (far right, Europhobic, pro-Brexit and pro-Putin) - which she will - is going to be excruciating for them. And excruciatingly funny for many others.
I think you are in danger of equating "most Trump supporters are Eurosceptics" with "most Eurosceptics are Trump supporters"
Flying visit but just wanted to say what an excellent thread header. Corbyn is just completely unsuited to be a party leader and any rational membership would have seen that from day one.
Will PB's favourite Scottish Tory have to make a public atonement for calling the mother of the most powerful man in the world and the Brits' bestest friend a whore?
Can't you get a confiscation order via English Heritage?
Yes but the enforcing authority is the district council. If they won't support it, it becomes very difficult to do anything. I was on the Civic Trust planning committee in Newark for many years and we fought this up hill and down dale but got nowhere. So the buildings sit in a twilight zone for years. The council can't actually pass permission for them to be demolished unless there is a very special reason like imminent danger of collapse but they refuse to enforce the law and insist the developer renovates them.
Couldn't you get a court order to require the council to act of that are refusing to enforce a legal instrument?
Yep but the costs involved are too high. We thought there was progress being made on this last year but then English Heritage got split into The English Heritage Trust and Historic England which does all the statutory stuff. Since then everything seems to have ground to a halt. The developers have put in another application for demolition to be heard in February. They are claiming it is unreasonable to demand that the building be saved as it will now cost £900,000. Of course this conveniently ignores the fact that they have allowed it to get into that state in the first place.
If you can demonstrate non-compliance with previous instructions you should be fine i think
Thanks Charles. We are still fighting against it so not given up hope entirely yet.
Miss Plato, personally, Livia was my favourite, but Caligula and Augustus were both excellent as well. Absolutely fantastic cast in I, Claudius.
Mr. M, is Count Belisarius history or fiction? I'm familiar with Belisarius' doings, of course (from Gibbon, Norwich and Procopius, although I suspect the latter might be just a shade negative).
Tiberius was so creepy too. Loved Brian Blessed and Sian Phillips. Postumus was a drip - was that McCorkindale?
Miss Plato, personally, Livia was my favourite, but Caligula and Augustus were both excellent as well. Absolutely fantastic cast in I, Claudius.
Mr. M, is Count Belisarius history or fiction? I'm familiar with Belisarius' doings, of course (from Gibbon, Norwich and Procopius, although I suspect the latter might be just a shade negative).
It's a fictionalised account of his career from the perspective of one of his wife's servants (Eugenius). Similar style to I, Claudius, but related in the third person.
Miss Plato, personally, Livia was my favourite, but Caligula and Augustus were both excellent as well. Absolutely fantastic cast in I, Claudius.
Mr. M, is Count Belisarius history or fiction? I'm familiar with Belisarius' doings, of course (from Gibbon, Norwich and Procopius, although I suspect the latter might be just a shade negative).
Historical novel. I found "I, Claudius" the book very flat - someone suggested to me this might be because there is absolutely no dialogue in it. I usually prefer books to series based on those books, but I, Claudius is a rare exception, along with Game of Thrones.
Will PB's favourite Scottish Tory have to make a public atonement for calling the mother of the most powerful man in the world and the Brits' bestest friend a whore?
Cameron shook hands with King Abdullah Brown shook hands with Putin Blair shook hands with Gaddafi Jack Straw shook hands with Robert Mugabe May shook hands with Trump
Which one of those foreign leaders killed the fewest?
Trump is a first class bell-end but making a fuss over a handshake won't make the slightest dent outside of those who obsess about politics.
Holding hands is not shaking hands. I feel sorry for May on this. Trump reached out, she could not ignore him. But people will forget that. All they will see is the photo. She is now hand in hand with him. And the fawning headlines in the Tory press don't help.
Private Eye is utterly spoilt for choice when choosing its next cover picture.
Comments
The hand-holding photo is all they have to hold onto in contriving the disaster they were hoping for.
The planning officer was eventually jailed.
* only after a lucky escape for daring to tweet a picture of a posh burger.
I met him after a racing meeting in Dublin a few years ago. He was charming and fun. And a great actor too.
Their frustration is palpable. Personally, I'm surprised there isn't a petition to Westminster, demanding those White House steps be turned into a ramp.
With 964,863 signatures.
Their objection was that we'd voted for Brexit.
- there is relatively low manifest support for the EU in this country: perhaps 30%.
- whilst much of this 30%, as witnessed by the Violet Elizabeth Bott brigade on here, will be cheering on EU punishment beatings during discussions, a subset will be appalled by the behaviour of Juncker et al, and be finally convinced of the merits of being better off out.
Residual goodwill to the EU will almost certainly fall far below the threshold needed for us to rejoin. We're out for good.
More seriously how corbyn supporters can square lots of things is beyond me. He is apparently totally honest, but then caught lying with the train stunt, etc etc etc
Presumably most Labour/Media types don't understand that horses are pretty common outside of Camden and Richmond Park.
That has very serious implications for Labour.
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/politics/scottish-politics/358555/exclusive-dundee-mp-chris-law-cleared-financial-wrongdoing-four-month-police-probe/
It was a false claim that has come back to bite them (and those of us who did not agree with it)
A strategic issue for the UK has always been the eventual coalescence of the EZ, which will eventually vote as one, and will always be able to out-QMV non-EZ nations. It doesn't matter whether that's in a decade or twenty years.
The UK has been a fish bone stuck in the EU gullet since well before Lisbon. The US got incredibly pissed off with us because our domestic difficulties over the EU meant that we were essentially engaged in 'run silent, run deep' on European matters. We abdicated leadership (or, possibly more accurate, we failed to expand the Paris-Berlin axis to include London).
Brexit is an opportunity for the EZ to escape its current local maxima and find a newer, more integrated and happier place (though it will need German citizens to swallow the idea of fiscal transfers). It's also a threat (leaving aside the risk that we might prosper), as our departure means that the Club Med countries can now reliably muster a blocking minority on QMV.
My view has been (for the last couple of years at least) that the UK needs to be all the way in, or all the way out (modulo I would have like us to exit via EFTA rather than straight to a CETA style arrangement).
Rightly or wrongly it was a running joke in Newark for many years. Any notable building that caught fire, the first question was always "what are they wanting to build there then?"
If there was a lurking JFK around I'm sure they'd have found him by now
Fierce debate/slanging matches about the EU are the preserve of the political and media classes, and a minority of very engaged citizens on each side of the argument. Much of the rest of the country may have views and concerns on the matter, but it doesn't exactly dominate their lives.
Despite the closeness of the referendum result, I don't buy this idea that the country is split down the middle into two warring camps. We might all pause to reflect on how much has changed in our lives and local communities as a result of the EU referendum; in my case, it has been practically nothing.
Most voters are completely disinterested in protest, one way or another. They just expect the Government to get on with implementing the decision, and making it work.
That's the art of leadership. You give everyone in your coalition enough red meat to keep them reasonably happy. The groups you describe for Labour aren't natural pals, but nor are they fundamentally irreconcilable.
Is this fake news Roge?
Now, twitter is full of people metaphorically stroking their chins and waxing lyrical on the grave import of Brexit on the important functioning of (say) EASA or the ECAA. What fun!
With reference to previous thread, this in CapX on France is worth a read: https://capx.co/why-french-politics-has-never-been-so-unpredictable/
We clearly have to continue to strive to be America's most important Atlantic ally, for political, military, intelligence and business reasons. The much-mocked special relationship is largely down to the huge number of personal relationships built on decades of bilateral working & number of integrees, particularly in the Five Eyes community. All countries to this to a certain extent, but none to the degree that the UK does.
Am I happy that POTUS is Donald Trump? Of course not, shame on you for asking such a leading question
As things progress with the serving of A50 the more pragmatic heads will get down to do a fair deal without doubt. The report that Merkel has demanded a mass of new EU trade deals far away from the EU but that the UK on her doorstep will be isolated is only for those, and there are many, who actively want the UK to fail so that in some way we can go back on our knees begging to re-join is just fanciful
As Sir Passmore says, too, the wings of Labour aren't irreconcilable - in particular PLP members are conscious that a degree of civility and cooperation is needed now to avoid meltdown: it's one thing to try to mount a coup with what you think is a chance of success, another to be openly hostile on a routine basis, and there is no shortage of issues on which the wings almost entirely agree.
The creatures outside looked from Trumper to Mayette, and from Mayette to Brexiteer, and from Brexiteer to Unionist; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
'In the United States, violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eleven people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, a police officer, two people (unclear of their connection), and a clinic escort'
'According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, 13 wounded,[12] 100 butyric acid stink bomb attacks, 373 physical invasions, 41 bombings, 655 anthrax threats,[13] and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.'
Brown shook hands with Putin
Blair shook hands with Gaddafi
Jack Straw shook hands with Robert Mugabe
May shook hands with Trump
Which one of those foreign leaders killed the fewest?
Trump is a first class bell-end but making a fuss over a handshake won't make the slightest dent outside of those who obsess about politics.
The hand hold is quite frankly nothing but someone holding out a hand to help the other down a few steps and if you notice he taps her hand at the bottom of the steps so that she is ok to let go.
The trip has been a great success widely appreciated by most commentators both here and in the US and she has enhanced her own reputation enormously.
As I am typing this she is laying a wreath in Ankara. She has some stamina to have done so much in the last few days and while some may disagree, we can be proud that we have a capable and confident Prime Minister forging a new role for the UK in the world. Long 'may' it continue
Amazed he lasted so long. Great actor - his Caligula was chilling.
"If you could trip Donald Trump down a flight of stairs hours before he signed an executive order banning refugees, would you?"
https://twitter.com/AngrySalmond/status/824758528690835456
There are plenty of photos of a grinning Alex with a grinning Trump.
Of course, they later fell out.
But, I suspect TM can be equally adroit, if need be.
http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/milo-and-clodius.html
Obama spoke softly but carried a baby's rattle, Trump makes no attempt to speak softly. Trump makes himself a target while Barry remains Mr Nice Guy.
There is a section of the UK left which is forever Yank-ophobic. Obama quelled some of their rhetoric, but Trump is a godsend. Perhaps because we've had the two extremes consecutively, Trump will never be given any credit by them. As he exhibits a touch of paranoia too, this won't change.
But the USA remains top dog which exacerbates the far Left's bile. Yes, Trump is an oddity, the bar room braggart, but he's no fool. he knows what he's doing. Something I was never sure about with Dubya.
A long spoon may be needed, but a close relationship is a good thing. Even if it's taken a Tory woman to begin it.
I see a failure of imagination here across the board as to how radical change could emerge in the UK.
To be honest I think the Cheerleaders for May have got it stunningly wrong. Trump is the most unpopular President in America since these things started to be recorded. In the UK he is more or less despised across the political spectrum. May's hurried and supplicatory visit looks awful. Meanwhile the unspoken assumption that the EU will simply collapse and go away is looking pretty unsupported by the facts too. So in three years time, with Trump checkmated by Congress and the EU past the worst, the Hard Brexit policy could well be going to look like a dogs breakfast for a friendless UK.
Keir Starmer is the only grown up on the Labour front bench at the moment, and even he is making significant mistakes... More important than whether Labour hold the by-election seats is what happens in the locals in May. The big news may not be a Labour rout but the return of the Lib Dems. Then the political momentum could turn strongly into a Remain/Return narrative.
People are pretty dismissive of Corbyn, but they do not love Mrs May either. So it seems to me that we could absolutely see the long heralded political realignment actually happen. Those who laughed at the surge for Nick Clegg in 2010 - especially when it didn't happen-may find that Farron goes on to higher things- the electorate are pretty volatile and increasingly pissed off- the Lib Dems are getting points even among soft leavers for sticking to their European guns, and if May's gamble on Trumpistan turns out to be a failure, then vast change could happen very quickly.
Speculation is also rife about who made the complaint. Some in the SNP are concerned it may have been someone inside the party given the detailed financial nature of the allegations
Some MPs just don't know when to step away from the keyboard
Anna Turley MP
On behalf of human beings I apologise for Katie Hopkins. https://t.co/C4iMD1ihWQ
They must be hoping desperately that Macron wins the French presidency. Otherwise, watching these self-same people trying to make excuses for Mutti making eyes and holding hands with either Francois Fillon (hard right, pseudo-Thatcherite, corrupt and pro-Putin) or Marine Le Pen (far right, Europhobic, pro-Brexit and pro-Putin) - which she will - is going to be excruciating for them. And excruciatingly funny for many others.
Robert Kimbell
916,000 Poles live in the UK.
900,000 Brits live in the 27 other EU member states.
https://t.co/uWwv1tkZFW
Mr. M, is Count Belisarius history or fiction? I'm familiar with Belisarius' doings, of course (from Gibbon, Norwich and Procopius, although I suspect the latter might be just a shade negative).
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/20/alex-salmond-donald-trump-scotland
http://cdn2.spectator.co.uk/files/2015/12/article-2323143-0449190A0000044D-724_634x433.jpg