politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » White House Race round-up
Comments
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You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.0 -
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.0 -
National Tracker - Times-Picayune/Lucid - Sample 1,632 - 10-12 Oct
Clinton 44 .. Trump 36
https://luc.id/2016-presidential-tracker/0 -
Sunil_Prasannan said:
LEAVE 52%Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
REMAIN 48%
Marmite's the tip of the iceberg. Dream On! Inflationary pressure is now here.ThreeQuidder said:
We already knew that every unpopular decision would be blamed on the Leave vote, whether or not it had anything to do with it. A 10% price rise on a product made entirely within the UK has nothing at all to do with it...Monksfield said:On the days events....
Cheers to Bob Dylan..... Poet for our times...
Massive cheers to Jessica Ennis Hill. A better role model for modern Britain would be very hard to find. She had my vote for Spoty in 12 and 15 and will have it again this year. You were fab Jess!
And jeers to Tesco. If the anglish poond drops by more than 15%, prices are going to go up. Period. I noticed petrol was up by 2p at my local BP on the way home. This is the cost of taking back control.0 -
Wrong. If he can bring out this kind of performance in the final debate he will win.rottenborough said:Trump in full flow. This is what a loser sounds like.
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He's now on about veterans. These were one of the first groups he attacked way back. Including McCain.0
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Just as well Dave got us an opt-out then wasn't it.Richard_Tyndall said:
It isn't wrong. It is the basic raison d'etre of the EU. It is written right there in the treaties and is confirmed each time the ECJ makes a decision based on those treaties. It was the openly stated aim of the founders of the EEC and has continued to be the basic direction of travel for the EEC/EU over the last 40 years.Gardenwalker said:
The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.Black_Rook said:FPT
No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.Gardenwalker said:By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.
Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.
I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.0 -
Too late. No ground game. No spend on ads. Insulted every demographic. It's over.williamglenn said:
Wrong. If he can bring out this kind of performance in the final debate he will win.rottenborough said:Trump in full flow. This is what a loser sounds like.
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Maybe so. I despise this man but he is a great speaker, completely outclassing Clinton.williamglenn said:
Wrong. If he can bring out this kind of performance in the final debate he will win.rottenborough said:Trump in full flow. This is what a loser sounds like.
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Didnt someone claim Fargle is helping him again. I think that confirms it.williamglenn said:Trump: "I take all of these slings and arrows gladly for you, so that we can have our country back."
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We thankfully avoided the Euro. What the Euro nations do is up to them. If they want to self-liquidate, so be it.Black_Rook said:
1. If the Eurozone fails to federalise then how is the single currency ever to be made to work properly? The vast economic disparities between the member states can only be addressed through the issuance of common debt, by a common government that can raise common taxes, and by outright fiscal transfers - not through a combination of punitive austerity measures and massive loans (which, in the Greek case at least, the supplicant debtors have no realistic chance of ever repaying.)Gardenwalker said:
The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.Black_Rook said:FPT
No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.Gardenwalker said:By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.
Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.
I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.
2. If the Eurozone federalises then it therefore follows that (a) states within it will cease to exist as sovereign entities, and (b) remaining non-Euro states will probably find themselves as fax democracies a la Norway.
The fax democracy description of Norway is another one of those tags that doesn't really help. It takes on a load of single market regulation so that it can trade effectively. Doesn't mean its not a sovereign nation.0 -
I get the feeling that Hammond has won the internal Cabinet war on Brexit.Casino_Royale said:Dominic Cummings doesn't seem like a happy bunny over on Twitter.
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May be a hard Brexit is inevitable?
George Eaton ✔ @georgeeaton
EU president Donald Tusk: “The only real alternative to a hard Brexit is no Brexit." Europe's political priority is to avoid "soft" deal.0 -
The fax democracy claim is also utterly false - another myth perpetuated by the Pro-EU lobbyGardenwalker said:
We thankfully avoided the Euro. What the Euro nations do is up to them. If they want to self-liquidate, so be it.Black_Rook said:
1. If the Eurozone fails to federalise then how is the single currency ever to be made to work properly? The vast economic disparities between the member states can only be addressed through the issuance of common debt, by a common government that can raise common taxes, and by outright fiscal transfers - not through a combination of punitive austerity measures and massive loans (which, in the Greek case at least, the supplicant debtors have no realistic chance of ever repaying.)Gardenwalker said:
The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.Black_Rook said:FPT
No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.Gardenwalker said:By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.
Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.
I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.
2. If the Eurozone federalises then it therefore follows that (a) states within it will cease to exist as sovereign entities, and (b) remaining non-Euro states will probably find themselves as fax democracies a la Norway.
The fax democracy description of Norway is another one of those tags that doesn't really help. It takes on a load of single market regulation so that it can trade effectively. Doesn't mean its not a sovereign nation.0 -
No you'd be seeing a reversion to mean after the shock of the tapes wore off.williamglenn said:
Imagine there were no polls on the debate at all, and look at all the other evidence of the campaign and other polling data. You would have to conclude that there was an event on Sunday that was favourable to Trump.JackW said:
You keep repeating this "Trump's debate victory" myth.Speedy said:Oh how wrong you are OGH.
Only the Suffolk, North Carolina poll was done after the debate, you have to look at the date of the surveys.
Using only the national polls done after the debate it's an average Hillary lead nationally of 3.6%.
She is leading by 2 in N.Carolina, by 3 in Florida by 2 on average in Nevada, all consistent with a national lead for Hillary of around 4 points.
You are behind the curve, the debate did wonders for Trump and cancelled the Tape.
All the polls showed a Clinton win. You relate to other polls regularly but choose to ignore the debate polls. Very odd.0 -
Labour especially and particularly Corbyn.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.0 -
Still fighting yesterday's battles Topping? You already lost that one back in June.TOPPING said:
Just as well Dave got us an opt-out then wasn't it.Richard_Tyndall said:
It isn't wrong. It is the basic raison d'etre of the EU. It is written right there in the treaties and is confirmed each time the ECJ makes a decision based on those treaties. It was the openly stated aim of the founders of the EEC and has continued to be the basic direction of travel for the EEC/EU over the last 40 years.Gardenwalker said:
The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.Black_Rook said:FPT
No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.Gardenwalker said:By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.
Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.
I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.0 -
He's running an ad campaign concentrating on calling Clinton ill and physically weak, and the NRA are running a big ad too. Many signs being held up saying "Blacks for Trump".rottenborough said:
Too late. No ground game. No spend on ads. Insulted every demographic. It's over.williamglenn said:
Wrong. If he can bring out this kind of performance in the final debate he will win.rottenborough said:Trump in full flow. This is what a loser sounds like.
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Same with EU membership. We were a sovereign nation despite us agreeing to a set of common rules in order for mutual benefit.Gardenwalker said:
We thankfully avoided the Euro. What the Euro nations do is up to them. If they want to self-liquidate, so be it.Black_Rook said:
1. If the Eurozone fails to federalise then how is the single currency ever to be made to work properly? The vast economic disparities between the member states can only be addressed through the issuance of common debt, by a common government that can raise common taxes, and by outright fiscal transfers - not through a combination of punitive austerity measures and massive loans (which, in the Greek case at least, the supplicant debtors have no realistic chance of ever repaying.)Gardenwalker said:
The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.Black_Rook said:FPT
No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.Gardenwalker said:By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.
Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.
I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.
2. If the Eurozone federalises then it therefore follows that (a) states within it will cease to exist as sovereign entities, and (b) remaining non-Euro states will probably find themselves as fax democracies a la Norway.
The fax democracy description of Norway is another one of those tags that doesn't really help. It takes on a load of single market regulation so that it can trade effectively. Doesn't mean its not a sovereign nation.0 -
No by me.weejonnie said:
It was highly respected when it had Clinton in the lead - and so was the LA Times poll.JackW said:Trump - "The highly respected Rasmussen poll .... "
Laugh .... I nearly choked on my low calorie "meal" ....
Rasmussen is a basket case. Apparently 24% AA are voting Trump ... who knew ?!? and to make the LA Times tracker viable, 538 have to add +5 to the Clinton score.0 -
One for Speedy!JackW said:National Tracker - Times-Picayune/Lucid - Sample 1,632 - 10-12 Oct
Clinton 44 .. Trump 36
https://luc.id/2016-presidential-tracker/0 -
That is rather ott and unnecessesary. This is not the Jeremy Kyle showmurali_s said:
Not al all - Barack is also pure class - very different to right-wing, small-minded and bigoted dimwits like yourself!Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Bit like how her husbands similar brilliant speech won it for Remain...oh.murali_s said:
Simple but effective. This lady is so classy!619 said:https://twitter.com/mmurraypolitics/status/786610600268791809
Yeah this is a brilliant speech0 -
With all the UK media reporting how terrible Trump is, one could get the impression that it is all over. The problem is there is no sense of balance or quoting facts or analysing the credibility of polls. Just very poor journalism. As usual.rottenborough said:
Too late. No ground game. No spend on ads. Insulted every demographic. It's over.williamglenn said:
Wrong. If he can bring out this kind of performance in the final debate he will win.rottenborough said:Trump in full flow. This is what a loser sounds like.
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The thing is, Westminster and my local parish council were not mandated to do exactly that Article 5(3) of the Maastricht Treaty, guess which organisation wasGardenwalker said:
I cannot. But it is hardly likely the EU (Commission) would do so. You might ask the same of Westminster, or even your local parish council.Indigo said:
Can you name one power assumed by the EU which on reflection they decided more correctly lay with the nation states in accordance with the principles of subsidiarity ? No ? Neither can I.Gardenwalker said:I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.
It is for the nation states to repatriate powers if they think it advisable. The U.K. has been relatively unsuccessful at pushing this agenda probably because it has preferred and been quite successful at securing the individual opt-out. 0 -
Not a very credible tracker, they didn't show any plunge for Trump during the Tape.JackW said:National Tracker - Times-Picayune/Lucid - Sample 1,632 - 10-12 Oct
Clinton 44 .. Trump 36
https://luc.id/2016-presidential-tracker/
They showed him gaining during the Tape, and it's not a 7 day tracker, it's only a 2 day tracker so they have no excuse.
They don't seem to respond with events.0 -
British politics is two tramps fighting over the dregs in a can of Stella. The winner later discovers the dregs are piss.SquareRoot said:
Labour especially and particularly Corbyn.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
Enjoy your victory.0 -
Erm. Westminster has devolved vast amounts of power to Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland as well as to the regions and district councils at various times. I think that is a rather poor example for you to use.Gardenwalker said:
I cannot. But it is hardly likely the EU (Commission) would do so. You might ask the same of Westminster, or even your local parish council.Indigo said:
Can you name one power assumed by the EU which on reflection they decided more correctly lay with the nation states in accordance with the principles of subsidiarity ? No ? Neither can I.Gardenwalker said:I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.
It is for the nation states to repatriate powers if they think it advisable. The U.K. has been relatively unsuccessful at pushing this agenda probably because it has preferred and been quite successful at securing the individual opt-out.0 -
Speech clealy written by Fargle.Dromedary said:Trump: "This is our moment of reckoning as a society, and as a civilisation. I didn't need to do this. Believe me. (...) I'm doing it because this country has given me so much (...) and I feel so strongly that it's my turn to give back to the country that I love."
"In my former life, I was an insider (...) Now I'm being punished for leaving the special club and revealing to you the terrible things that are going on."
"Because I used to be part of the club, I'm the only one who can fix it".
"The dark clouds hanging over our government can be lifted (...) It all depends on whether we let the corrupt media decide our future (...) or the American people decide our future"0 -
Not at all. Proudest day of my life.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
Disappointing to see you've bought into the Remain camp wholesale.0 -
And right there we have a perfect example of why you lost the referendum.Jonathan said:Aarrgghh the nasty EU man has a straight banana. Quick, let's trash the economy and make foreigners feel so uncomfortable here, they'll leave.
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Nah. I lost that one but am ashamed of myself that I find it amusing to dangle a bone in front of the Brexiters before whisking it away as they snap.Richard_Tyndall said:
Still fighting yesterday's battles Topping? You already lost that one back in June.TOPPING said:
Just as well Dave got us an opt-out then wasn't it.Richard_Tyndall said:
It isn't wrong. It is the basic raison d'etre of the EU. It is written right there in the treaties and is confirmed each time the ECJ makes a decision based on those treaties. It was the openly stated aim of the founders of the EEC and has continued to be the basic direction of travel for the EEC/EU over the last 40 years.Gardenwalker said:
The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.Black_Rook said:FPT
No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.Gardenwalker said:By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.
Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.
I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.0 -
As Mervyn King told us a couple of days ago he had been trying to get higher interest rates and inflation for three years as Bank of England policy, and now we are suppose to believe this is a bad thing ?Monksfield said:Sunil_Prasannan said:
LEAVE 52%Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
REMAIN 48%
Marmite's the tip of the iceberg. Dream On! Inflationary pressure is now here.ThreeQuidder said:
We already knew that every unpopular decision would be blamed on the Leave vote, whether or not it had anything to do with it. A 10% price rise on a product made entirely within the UK has nothing at all to do with it...Monksfield said:On the days events....
Cheers to Bob Dylan..... Poet for our times...
Massive cheers to Jessica Ennis Hill. A better role model for modern Britain would be very hard to find. She had my vote for Spoty in 12 and 15 and will have it again this year. You were fab Jess!
And jeers to Tesco. If the anglish poond drops by more than 15%, prices are going to go up. Period. I noticed petrol was up by 2p at my local BP on the way home. This is the cost of taking back control.0 -
I add 6 to the LAT tracker, and from experience it lags about 5-7 days.JackW said:
No by me.weejonnie said:
It was highly respected when it had Clinton in the lead - and so was the LA Times poll.JackW said:Trump - "The highly respected Rasmussen poll .... "
Laugh .... I nearly choked on my low calorie "meal" ....
Rasmussen is a basket case. Apparently 24% AA are voting Trump ... who knew ?!? and to make the LA Times tracker viable, 538 have to add +5 to the Clinton score.0 -
Nope. What Monnet may have dreamt is pretty irrelevant 60 years on. Let's play realpolitik, please. If you can point to an instance where the ECJ has ruled for the dissolution of a sovereign entity by reference to the preamble of the a Treaty of Rome, I will gladly reconsider.Richard_Tyndall said:
It isn't wrong. It is the basic raison d'etre of the EU. It is written right there in the treaties and is confirmed each time the ECJ makes a decision based on those treaties. It was the openly stated aim of the founders of the EEC and has continued to be the basic direction of travel for the EEC/EU over the last 40 years.Gardenwalker said:
The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.Black_Rook said:FPT
No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.Gardenwalker said:By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.
Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.
I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.0 -
It's over Matthew Goodwin (and others) on why Brexit won. Oh, and he's been goaded by an article on Aaron Banks as well.MaxPB said:
I get the feeling that Hammond has won the internal Cabinet war on Brexit.Casino_Royale said:Dominic Cummings doesn't seem like a happy bunny over on Twitter.
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Well, we're used to spin.Jobabob said:
Do you expect me to just soak this abuse up??ThreeQuidder said:
Be careful, you don't want to get hung out to dry.Jobabob said:
Edit: @SquareRoot OK, it was an obvious reply.0 -
It must be sad to so hate your country and everything it stands for.Jonathan said:
British politics is two tramps fighting over the dregs in a can of Stella. The winner later discovers the dregs are piss.SquareRoot said:
Labour especially and particularly Corbyn.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
Enjoy your victory.0 -
No one minded the straight banana. It was the EU making it illegal to sell the bent one, causing perfectly good food to go to landfill while people starved in Ethiopia that gratedJonathan said:Aarrgghh the nasty EU man has a straight banana. Quick, let's trash the economy and make foreigners feel so uncomfortable here, they'll leave.
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It's not my term. I think it's silly.Richard_Tyndall said:
The fax democracy claim is also utterly false - another myth perpetuated by the Pro-EU lobbyGardenwalker said:
We thankfully avoided the Euro. What the Euro nations do is up to them. If they want to self-liquidate, so be it.Black_Rook said:
1. If the Eurozone fails to federalise then how is the single currency ever to be made to work properly? The vast economic disparities between the member states can only be addressed through the issuance of common debt, by a common government that can raise common taxes, and by outright fiscal transfers - not through a combination of punitive austerity measures and massive loans (which, in the Greek case at least, the supplicant debtors have no realistic chance of ever repaying.)Gardenwalker said:
The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.Black_Rook said:FPT
No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.Gardenwalker said:By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.
Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.
I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.
2. If the Eurozone federalises then it therefore follows that (a) states within it will cease to exist as sovereign entities, and (b) remaining non-Euro states will probably find themselves as fax democracies a la Norway.
The fax democracy description of Norway is another one of those tags that doesn't really help. It takes on a load of single market regulation so that it can trade effectively. Doesn't mean its not a sovereign nation.0 -
No, 52% of us won.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.0 -
Opt out. Yeah, right.TOPPING said:
Just as well Dave got us an opt-out then wasn't it.Richard_Tyndall said:
It isn't wrong. It is the basic raison d'etre of the EU. It is written right there in the treaties and is confirmed each time the ECJ makes a decision based on those treaties. It was the openly stated aim of the founders of the EEC and has continued to be the basic direction of travel for the EEC/EU over the last 40 years.Gardenwalker said:
The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.Black_Rook said:FPT
No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.Gardenwalker said:By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.
Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.
I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.0 -
As someone who doesn't actually live here I don't expect you'll get these things but once ordinary people are paying more to live, particularly on their mortgages if interest rates rise, and as always happens in the UK wages run behind, then they'll not have a great deal of time for Mervyn King or his view of inflation.Indigo said:
As Mervyn King told us a couple of days ago he had been trying to get higher interest rates and inflation for three years as Bank of England policy, and now we are suppose to believe this is a bad thing ?Monksfield said:Sunil_Prasannan said:
LEAVE 52%Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
REMAIN 48%
Marmite's the tip of the iceberg. Dream On! Inflationary pressure is now here.ThreeQuidder said:
We already knew that every unpopular decision would be blamed on the Leave vote, whether or not it had anything to do with it. A 10% price rise on a product made entirely within the UK has nothing at all to do with it...Monksfield said:On the days events....
Cheers to Bob Dylan..... Poet for our times...
Massive cheers to Jessica Ennis Hill. A better role model for modern Britain would be very hard to find. She had my vote for Spoty in 12 and 15 and will have it again this year. You were fab Jess!
And jeers to Tesco. If the anglish poond drops by more than 15%, prices are going to go up. Period. I noticed petrol was up by 2p at my local BP on the way home. This is the cost of taking back control.0 -
The way Brexit is playing out is hugely upsetting. The way May and Rudd played it last week was hugely damaging. I am very angry.Casino_Royale said:
Not at all. Proudest day of my life.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
Disappointing to see you've bought into the Remain camp wholesale.
I should not have to explain to friends it's safe to visit the UK.0 -
Which means very good potential profit opportunities.TCPoliticalBetting said:
With all the UK media reporting how terrible Trump is, one could get the impression that it is all over. The problem is there is no sense of balance or quoting facts or analysing the credibility of polls. Just very poor journalism. As usual.rottenborough said:
Too late. No ground game. No spend on ads. Insulted every demographic. It's over.williamglenn said:
Wrong. If he can bring out this kind of performance in the final debate he will win.rottenborough said:Trump in full flow. This is what a loser sounds like.
0 -
I love my country. I hate it being trashed.Richard_Tyndall said:
It must be sad to so hate your country and everything it stands for.Jonathan said:
British politics is two tramps fighting over the dregs in a can of Stella. The winner later discovers the dregs are piss.SquareRoot said:
Labour especially and particularly Corbyn.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
Enjoy your victory.0 -
I thing we can all agree than everyone won except 3 people:ThreeQuidder said:
No, 52% of us won.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
David Cameron, George Osborne, and TSE.0 -
Is it panel based ? We saw the same happen in GE2015 with "panel based pollsters" which gave us more or less the same result for months, with people on here wondering not unreasonable why if you asked more or less the same people more or less the same question why you expected their answers to change over time.Speedy said:
Not a very credible tracker, they didn't show any plunge for Trump during the Tape.JackW said:National Tracker - Times-Picayune/Lucid - Sample 1,632 - 10-12 Oct
Clinton 44 .. Trump 36
https://luc.id/2016-presidential-tracker/
They showed him gaining during the Tape, and it's not a 7 day tracker, it's only a 2 day tracker so they have no excuse.
They don't seem to respond with events.0 -
A stupid request since you don't dissolve a sovereign state overnight. What you do is slowly remove powers from the state and transfer them to the supra national entity. And when the states object you use the ECJ to overrule them. Now can anyone think of an example where that has been happening for the last 50 years or so?Gardenwalker said:
Nope. What Monnet may have dreamt is pretty irrelevant 60 years on. Let's play realpolitik, please. If you can point to an instance where the ECJ has ruled for the dissolution of a sovereign entity by reference to the preamble of the a Treaty of Rome, I will gladly reconsider.Richard_Tyndall said:
It isn't wrong. It is the basic raison d'etre of the EU. It is written right there in the treaties and is confirmed each time the ECJ makes a decision based on those treaties. It was the openly stated aim of the founders of the EEC and has continued to be the basic direction of travel for the EEC/EU over the last 40 years.Gardenwalker said:
The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.Black_Rook said:FPT
No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.Gardenwalker said:By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.
Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.
I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.0 -
Well if there had been a 10% px increase at Tesco then in the fog of war that would have been put down to Brexit.Indigo said:
As Mervyn King told us a couple of days ago he had been trying to get higher interest rates and inflation for three years as Bank of England policy, and now we are suppose to believe this is a bad thing ?Monksfield said:Sunil_Prasannan said:
LEAVE 52%Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
REMAIN 48%
Marmite's the tip of the iceberg. Dream On! Inflationary pressure is now here.ThreeQuidder said:
We already knew that every unpopular decision would be blamed on the Leave vote, whether or not it had anything to do with it. A 10% price rise on a product made entirely within the UK has nothing at all to do with it...Monksfield said:On the days events....
Cheers to Bob Dylan..... Poet for our times...
Massive cheers to Jessica Ennis Hill. A better role model for modern Britain would be very hard to find. She had my vote for Spoty in 12 and 15 and will have it again this year. You were fab Jess!
And jeers to Tesco. If the anglish poond drops by more than 15%, prices are going to go up. Period. I noticed petrol was up by 2p at my local BP on the way home. This is the cost of taking back control.
We are now in a world where instead of having to take responsibility for their actions, a prime reason for PB Leavers for voting Out, governments and corporates will blame anything bad on the EU.0 -
Sorry, my sloppy language.Richard_Tyndall said:
Erm. Westminster has devolved vast amounts of power to Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland as well as to the regions and district councils at various times. I think that is a rather poor example for you to use.Gardenwalker said:
I cannot. But it is hardly likely the EU (Commission) would do so. You might ask the same of Westminster, or even your local parish council.Indigo said:
Can you name one power assumed by the EU which on reflection they decided more correctly lay with the nation states in accordance with the principles of subsidiarity ? No ? Neither can I.Gardenwalker said:I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.
It is for the nation states to repatriate powers if they think it advisable. The U.K. has been relatively unsuccessful at pushing this agenda probably because it has preferred and been quite successful at securing the individual opt-out.
My point is that bureaucracies do not devolve.
Politicians do however, as Blair did with the nations and Osborne tried to do with the metros.0 -
Ditto.Jonathan said:
I love my country. I hate it being trashed.Richard_Tyndall said:
It must be sad to so hate your country and everything it stands for.Jonathan said:
British politics is two tramps fighting over the dregs in a can of Stella. The winner later discovers the dregs are piss.SquareRoot said:
Labour especially and particularly Corbyn.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
Enjoy your victory.0 -
By Article 1 of the Montevideo Convention, the EU qualifies as a state and its "member states" might not, as qualification (d) is restricted.TOPPING said:
Same with EU membership. We were a sovereign nation despite us agreeing to a set of common rules in order for mutual benefit.Gardenwalker said:
We thankfully avoided the Euro. What the Euro nations do is up to them. If they want to self-liquidate, so be it.Black_Rook said:
1. If the Eurozone fails to federalise then how is the single currency ever to be made to work properly? The vast economic disparities between the member states can only be addressed through the issuance of common debt, by a common government that can raise common taxes, and by outright fiscal transfers - not through a combination of punitive austerity measures and massive loans (which, in the Greek case at least, the supplicant debtors have no realistic chance of ever repaying.)Gardenwalker said:
The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.Black_Rook said:FPT
No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.Gardenwalker said:By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.
Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.
I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.
2. If the Eurozone federalises then it therefore follows that (a) states within it will cease to exist as sovereign entities, and (b) remaining non-Euro states will probably find themselves as fax democracies a la Norway.
The fax democracy description of Norway is another one of those tags that doesn't really help. It takes on a load of single market regulation so that it can trade effectively. Doesn't mean its not a sovereign nation.0 -
@TCPoliticalBetting
'May be a hard Brexit is inevitable?
George Eaton ✔ @georgeeaton
EU president Donald Tusk: “The only real alternative to a hard Brexit is no Brexit." Europe's political priority is to avoid "soft" deal.'
So no need for endless time wasting debate in the HoC of soft v hard brexit,Tusk has clarified it for us.
0 -
The straight banana rules were brought in to stop carribean imports to the EU.0
-
But thankfully in this day and age there are plenty of resources to use to show that they are being dishonest - just as happened to Unilever today.TOPPING said:
Well if there had been a 10% px increase at Tesco then in the fog of war that would have been put down to Brexit.Indigo said:
As Mervyn King told us a couple of days ago he had been trying to get higher interest rates and inflation for three years as Bank of England policy, and now we are suppose to believe this is a bad thing ?Monksfield said:Sunil_Prasannan said:
LEAVE 52%Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
REMAIN 48%
Marmite's the tip of the iceberg. Dream On! Inflationary pressure is now here.ThreeQuidder said:
We already knew that every unpopular decision would be blamed on the Leave vote, whether or not it had anything to do with it. A 10% price rise on a product made entirely within the UK has nothing at all to do with it...Monksfield said:On the days events....
Cheers to Bob Dylan..... Poet for our times...
Massive cheers to Jessica Ennis Hill. A better role model for modern Britain would be very hard to find. She had my vote for Spoty in 12 and 15 and will have it again this year. You were fab Jess!
And jeers to Tesco. If the anglish poond drops by more than 15%, prices are going to go up. Period. I noticed petrol was up by 2p at my local BP on the way home. This is the cost of taking back control.
We are now in a world where instead of having to take responsibility for their actions, a prime reason for PB Leavers for voting Out, governments and corporates will blame anything bad on the EU.
I sometimes think that even after 20 years or more of the internet and information on demand (even if it does need to be filtered through a haze of misinformation at times) governments and corporations still haven't got the new reality yet.0 -
Trump even said in the speech that 8 Nov would be "independence day".Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Speech clealy written by Fargle.Dromedary said:Trump: "This is our moment of reckoning as a society, and as a civilisation. I didn't need to do this. Believe me. (...) I'm doing it because this country has given me so much (...) and I feel so strongly that it's my turn to give back to the country that I love."
"In my former life, I was an insider (...) Now I'm being punished for leaving the special club and revealing to you the terrible things that are going on."
"Because I used to be part of the club, I'm the only one who can fix it".
"The dark clouds hanging over our government can be lifted (...) It all depends on whether we let the corrupt media decide our future (...) or the American people decide our future"0 -
Such a tangled web of propaganda has addled your brain.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
No one minded the straight banana. It was the EU making it illegal to sell the bent one, causing perfectly good food to go to landfill while people starved in Ethiopia that gratedJonathan said:Aarrgghh the nasty EU man has a straight banana. Quick, let's trash the economy and make foreigners feel so uncomfortable here, they'll leave.
The banana issue is far more complex than the absurdities of defining a banana that any trade agreement that covers bananas deals with.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/mar/05/eu.wto30 -
As someone not intimately acquainted with my personal affairs you have no idea who or what I am paying for in the UK so perhaps we can avoid badly informed personal comments ?Monksfield said:
As someone who doesn't actually live here I don't expect you'll get these things but once ordinary people are paying more to live, particularly on their mortgages if interest rates rise, and as always happens in the UK wages run behind, then they'll not have a great deal of time for Mervyn King or his view of inflation.Indigo said:
As Mervyn King told us a couple of days ago he had been trying to get higher interest rates and inflation for three years as Bank of England policy, and now we are suppose to believe this is a bad thing ?Monksfield said:Sunil_Prasannan said:
LEAVE 52%Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
REMAIN 48%
Marmite's the tip of the iceberg. Dream On! Inflationary pressure is now here.ThreeQuidder said:
We already knew that every unpopular decision would be blamed on the Leave vote, whether or not it had anything to do with it. A 10% price rise on a product made entirely within the UK has nothing at all to do with it...Monksfield said:On the days events....
Cheers to Bob Dylan..... Poet for our times...
Massive cheers to Jessica Ennis Hill. A better role model for modern Britain would be very hard to find. She had my vote for Spoty in 12 and 15 and will have it again this year. You were fab Jess!
And jeers to Tesco. If the anglish poond drops by more than 15%, prices are going to go up. Period. I noticed petrol was up by 2p at my local BP on the way home. This is the cost of taking back control.
Let me see if I have this straight, Carney supposed Remain, he's a good chap, King supported Leave, he's satan ? Both did the same job for the same government for three years.0 -
I'm not surprised.john_zims said:@TCPoliticalBetting
'May be a hard Brexit is inevitable?
George Eaton ✔ @georgeeaton
EU president Donald Tusk: “The only real alternative to a hard Brexit is no Brexit." Europe's political priority is to avoid "soft" deal.'
So no need for endless time wasting debate in the HoC of soft v hard brexit,Tusk has clarified it for us.
As I said the EU is too emotional right now to react rationally, proper negotiations can only start after we leave the EU and things have cooled down.0 -
Its not being trashed - except by people like you describing it as a can of piss.Jonathan said:
I love my country. I hate it being trashed.Richard_Tyndall said:
It must be sad to so hate your country and everything it stands for.Jonathan said:
British politics is two tramps fighting over the dregs in a can of Stella. The winner later discovers the dregs are piss.SquareRoot said:
Labour especially and particularly Corbyn.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
Enjoy your victory.0 -
The bigger problem is that some have.Richard_Tyndall said:But thankfully in this day and age there are plenty of resources to use to show that they are being dishonest - just as happened to Unilever today.
I sometimes think that even after 20 years or more of the internet and information on demand (even if it does need to be filtered through a haze of misinformation at times) governments and corporations still haven't got the new reality yet.0 -
Well, you can.Richard_Tyndall said:
A stupid request since you don't dissolve a sovereign state overnight. What you do is slowly remove powers from the state and transfer them to the supra national entity. And when the states object you use the ECJ to overrule them. Now can anyone think of an example where that has been happening for the last 50 years or so?Gardenwalker said:
Nope. What Monnet may have dreamt is pretty irrelevant 60 years on. Let's play realpolitik, please. If you can point to an instance where the ECJ has ruled for the dissolution of a sovereign entity by reference to the preamble of the a Treaty of Rome, I will gladly reconsider.Richard_Tyndall said:
It isn't wrong. It is the basic raison d'etre of the EU. It is written right there in the treaties and is confirmed each time the ECJ makes a decision based on those treaties. It was the openly stated aim of the founders of the EEC and has continued to be the basic direction of travel for the EEC/EU over the last 40 years.Gardenwalker said:
The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.Black_Rook said:FPT
No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.Gardenwalker said:By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.
Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.
I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.
I just see a political construct which we, as a sovereign nation and signatory, can attempt to influence - or not.
As it is, two of the EU's finest achievements - maybe THE two achievements: the single market and east European enlargement - were British initiatives. You can add the ECHR to that although not part of the EU machinery per se.0 -
Now where have I heard that before ?Dromedary said:
Trump even said in the speech that 8 Nov would be "independence day".Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Speech clealy written by Fargle.Dromedary said:Trump: "This is our moment of reckoning as a society, and as a civilisation. I didn't need to do this. Believe me. (...) I'm doing it because this country has given me so much (...) and I feel so strongly that it's my turn to give back to the country that I love."
"In my former life, I was an insider (...) Now I'm being punished for leaving the special club and revealing to you the terrible things that are going on."
"Because I used to be part of the club, I'm the only one who can fix it".
"The dark clouds hanging over our government can be lifted (...) It all depends on whether we let the corrupt media decide our future (...) or the American people decide our future"0 -
Leave won a Pyrrhic victory that will destroy their case morally, intellectually and economically in the fullness of time.ThreeQuidder said:
No, 52% of us won.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.0 -
Mrs May clearly did this to Remainers at the Tory Conference:Jonathan said:
The way Brexit is playing out is hugely upsetting. The way May and Rudd played it last week was hugely damaging. I am very angry.Casino_Royale said:
Not at all. Proudest day of my life.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
Disappointing to see you've bought into the Remain camp wholesale.
.
https://youtu.be/R1ZU6UMDfgY0 -
You must live in a very strange little bubble. I can safely say that I have not had to apologise to or reassure a single non British friend or colleague since the referendum.Jonathan said:
The way Brexit is playing out is hugely upsetting. The way May and Rudd played it last week was hugely damaging. I am very angry.Casino_Royale said:
Not at all. Proudest day of my life.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
Disappointing to see you've bought into the Remain camp wholesale.
I should not have to explain to friends it's safe to visit the UK.0 -
so theyre fked without us.Gardenwalker said:
Well, you can.Richard_Tyndall said:
A stupid request since you don't dissolve a sovereign state overnight. What you do is slowly remove powers from the state and transfer them to the supra national entity. And when the states object you use the ECJ to overrule them. Now can anyone think of an example where that has been happening for the last 50 years or so?Gardenwalker said:
Nope. What Monnet may have dreamt is pretty irrelevant 60 years on. Let's play realpolitik, please. If you can point to an instance where the ECJ has ruled for the dissolution of a sovereign entity by reference to the preamble of the a Treaty of Rome, I will gladly reconsider.Richard_Tyndall said:
It isn't wrong. It is the basic raison d'etre of the EU. It is written right there in the treaties and is confirmed each time the ECJ makes a decision based on those treaties. It was the openly stated aim of the founders of the EEC and has continued to be the basic direction of travel for the EEC/EU over the last 40 years.Gardenwalker said:
The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.Black_Rook said:FPT
No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.Gardenwalker said:By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.
Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.
I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.
I just see a political construct which we, as a sovereign nation and signatory, can attempt to influence - or not.
As it is, two of the EU's finest achievements - maybe THE two achievements: the single market and east European enlargement - were British initiatives. You can add the ECHR to that although not part of the EU machinery per se.0 -
No, you shouldn't. Why do you?Jonathan said:
The way Brexit is playing out is hugely upsetting. The way May and Rudd played it last week was hugely damaging. I am very angry.Casino_Royale said:
Not at all. Proudest day of my life.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
Disappointing to see you've bought into the Remain camp wholesale.
I should not have to explain to friends it's safe to visit the UK.0 -
Keep dreaming William.williamglenn said:
Leave won a Pyrrhic victory that will destroy their case morally, intellectually and economically in the fullness of time.ThreeQuidder said:
No, 52% of us won.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.0 -
Meeks.Speedy said:
I thing we can all agree than everyone won except 3 people:ThreeQuidder said:
No, 52% of us won.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
David Cameron, George Osborne, and TSE.0 -
They banned battybananas?PAW said:The straight banana rules were brought in to stop carribean imports to the EU.
0 -
Struggling to follow.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Mrs May clearly did this to Remainers at the Tory Conference:Jonathan said:
The way Brexit is playing out is hugely upsetting. The way May and Rudd played it last week was hugely damaging. I am very angry.Casino_Royale said:
Not at all. Proudest day of my life.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
Disappointing to see you've bought into the Remain camp wholesale.
.
https://youtu.be/R1ZU6UMDfgY
Does that mean Brexiters are sitting in their armchairs shouting "I love my brick"?
If so, you're spot on.0 -
Fair point.JosiasJessop said:
The bigger problem is that some have.Richard_Tyndall said:But thankfully in this day and age there are plenty of resources to use to show that they are being dishonest - just as happened to Unilever today.
I sometimes think that even after 20 years or more of the internet and information on demand (even if it does need to be filtered through a haze of misinformation at times) governments and corporations still haven't got the new reality yet.0 -
Ouch (but a bit harsh on TSE!Speedy said:
I thing we can all agree than everyone won except 3 people:ThreeQuidder said:
No, 52% of us won.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
David Cameron, George Osborne, and TSE.
) 0 -
Good luck with the Rejoin campaign.williamglenn said:
Leave won a Pyrrhic victory that will destroy their case morally, intellectually and economically in the fullness of time.ThreeQuidder said:
No, 52% of us won.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.0 -
I can see you're angry. But it's still the same old Britain. The trouble is that Brexit is such a big event that any, and every, development can (and is) being directly attributed to it; it sells copy, and no news story can be overexaggerated.Jonathan said:
The way Brexit is playing out is hugely upsetting. The way May and Rudd played it last week was hugely damaging. I am very angry.Casino_Royale said:
Not at all. Proudest day of my life.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
Disappointing to see you've bought into the Remain camp wholesale.
I should not have to explain to friends it's safe to visit the UK.
You can unpick virtually everything by looking at the detail; from the total non-story of marmitegate to so-called "surges" in hate crime.
I expect we have a very bumpy ride ahead of us for the next 3 years.0 -
Shades of Maggie there!TCPoliticalBetting said:May be a hard Brexit is inevitable?
George Eaton ✔ @georgeeaton
EU president Donald Tusk: “The only real alternative to a hard Brexit is no Brexit." Europe's political priority is to avoid "soft" deal.
"There is no alternative!" 0 -
Of course. He speaks the truth.TCPoliticalBetting said:May be a hard Brexit is inevitable?
George Eaton ✔ @georgeeaton
EU president Donald Tusk: “The only real alternative to a hard Brexit is no Brexit." Europe's political priority is to avoid "soft" deal.
There is Real Brexit or eternal subservience.
I suspect that May will win a very substantial majority on a platform of Real Brexit in a general election next year. I also suspect that she is going to do things much more sharply than either the EU or SNP will be able to cope with. There is little point giving the initiative to them.0 -
No the remainers were just starting to quieten down when they tripped over and then got hit on the head by Mrs May wielding brick (tripping oved the brick being a metaphor for Article 50 by March 31st followed by Brexit Means hard Brexit when she metaphorically threw the brick at them)Gardenwalker said:
Struggling to follow.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Mrs May clearly did this to Remainers at the Tory Conference:Jonathan said:
The way Brexit is playing out is hugely upsetting. The way May and Rudd played it last week was hugely damaging. I am very angry.Casino_Royale said:
Not at all. Proudest day of my life.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
Disappointing to see you've bought into the Remain camp wholesale.
.
https://youtu.be/R1ZU6UMDfgY
Does that mean Brexiters are sitting in their armchairs shouting "I love my brick"?
If so, you're spot on.0 -
I'm certainly enjoying our victory.Jonathan said:
British politics is two tramps fighting over the dregs in a can of Stella. The winner later discovers the dregs are piss.SquareRoot said:
Labour especially and particularly Corbyn.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
Enjoy your victory.0 -
Yes, but that is, quite literally, a picayune poll.Jobabob said:
One for Speedy!JackW said:National Tracker - Times-Picayune/Lucid - Sample 1,632 - 10-12 Oct
Clinton 44 .. Trump 36
https://luc.id/2016-presidential-tracker/
:-)0 -
Think I might have mentioned it once of twice over the past six monthsTCPoliticalBetting said:May be a hard Brexit is inevitable?
George Eaton ✔ @georgeeaton
EU president Donald Tusk: “The only real alternative to a hard Brexit is no Brexit." Europe's political priority is to avoid "soft" deal. At this stage and after the promises made at the CPC the "No BrExit" option would result in pitchforks in the street which means eventually it's hard BrExit. That being the case is there any merit in pissing around with it for two years ? 0 -
Paul_Bedfordshire - http://www.globalissues.org/article/63/the-banana-trade-war - in the EU you get the regulations you pay for.0
-
I have had to reassure non-British employees.Richard_Tyndall said:
You must live in a very strange little bubble. I can safely say that I have not had to apologise to or reassure a single non British friend or colleague since the referendum.Jonathan said:
The way Brexit is playing out is hugely upsetting. The way May and Rudd played it last week was hugely damaging. I am very angry.Casino_Royale said:
Not at all. Proudest day of my life.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
Disappointing to see you've bought into the Remain camp wholesale.
I should not have to explain to friends it's safe to visit the UK.
Only natural to be concerned when your residency status becomes a political football (this is independent of the argument for or against Brexit though).0 -
A surprising number of people seem to think the EU is our lifeline and, if we cut the umbilical cord linking us to it, the whole UK economy will collapse.Sean_F said:
I'm certainly enjoying our victory.Jonathan said:
British politics is two tramps fighting over the dregs in a can of Stella. The winner later discovers the dregs are piss.SquareRoot said:
Labour especially and particularly Corbyn.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
Enjoy your victory.
In reality, the worst that happens according to the most contorted Osbornomics available is (apart from the short-term disruption) that we grow slightly more slowly than we might have done had we stayed.0 -
You have to feel sorry for right wing women. They are apparently living in a culture where it's normal behaviour for men to:
- brag about groping women without permission
- walk in on 15 year olds while they are naked
- insert their genitals into a dead pig's mouth
And before anyone denies one of those, remember we are talking about what right wing women have defended as normal behaviour, not whether the accounts were accurate or not.0 -
I see "marmitegate" has resolved itself in barely 24 hours:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-376502340 -
I am sure it won't stopCasino_Royale said:I see "marmitegate" has resolved itself in barely 24 hours:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37650234Fasal IslamScottP (re)tweeting about it.0 -
Isn't Les Aigles moving to Paris? Surely that's a big win for a Francophile like him!Speedy said:
I thing we can all agree than everyone won except 3 people:
David Cameron, George Osborne, and TSE.0 -
FrancisUrquhart said:
I am sure it won't stopCasino_Royale said:I see "marmitegate" has resolved itself in barely 24 hours:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37650234Fasal IslamScottP (re)tweeting about it.
What does Pasty_Scott do for a living?
0 -
One thing is for certain, he isn't a professional Game Show Contestant....TCPoliticalBetting said:FrancisUrquhart said:
I am sure it won't stopCasino_Royale said:I see "marmitegate" has resolved itself in barely 24 hours:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37650234Fasal IslamScottP (re)tweeting about it.
What does Pasty_Scott do for a living?
Behind 2 doors is a Fasal Islam tweet and behind the other is a ScottP re(tweet)...You pick a door and the host asks if you want stick or switch...
Answer...Doesn't matter, you get the same answer whichever door is opened.0 -
Remind me again, which parties have never elected a female leader?Freggles said:You have to feel sorry for right wing women. They are apparently living in a culture where it's normal behaviour for men to:
- brag about groping women without permission
- walk in on 15 year olds while they are naked
- insert their genitals into a dead pig's mouth
And before anyone denies one of those, remember we are talking about what right wing women have defended as normal behaviour, not whether the accounts were accurate or not.0 -
One of the first casualties is your integrity given your prior vehement advocacy of the EEA option.Richard_Tyndall said:
Keep dreaming William.williamglenn said:
Leave won a Pyrrhic victory that will destroy their case morally, intellectually and economically in the fullness of time.ThreeQuidder said:
No, 52% of us won.Jonathan said:
We all lost.Casino_Royale said:
You lost.Gardenwalker said:
Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!Indigo said:FPT:
Happily what you construe is of only incidental interestGardenwalker said:
You may construe it that way. I do not.Richard_Tyndall said:It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
To quote Sir Thomas More
The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.0 -
Nevada - Public Opinion Strategies - Sample 600 - 11-12 Oct
Clinton 45 .. Trump 39
http://www.ktnv.com/news/ralston/heck-hanging-onto-lead-trump-falling-behind-in-new-gop-poll0 -
The right wing women in my life get treated like queens and princesses and know where to deliver a verbal or physical blow if any scumbags take liberties.Freggles said:You have to feel sorry for right wing women. They are apparently living in a culture where it's normal behaviour for men to:
- brag about groping women without permission
- walk in on 15 year olds while they are naked
- insert their genitals into a dead pig's mouth
And before anyone denies one of those, remember we are talking about what right wing women have defended as normal behaviour, not whether the accounts were accurate or not.
0 -
So women should be free to be whatever they want as long as it's a sex object or Tory leader?brokenwheel said:
Remind me again, which parties have never elected a female leader?Freggles said:You have to feel sorry for right wing women. They are apparently living in a culture where it's normal behaviour for men to:
- brag about groping women without permission
- walk in on 15 year olds while they are naked
- insert their genitals into a dead pig's mouth
And before anyone denies one of those, remember we are talking about what right wing women have defended as normal behaviour, not whether the accounts were accurate or not. 0 -
Monksfield:Indigo said:
As Mervyn King told us a couple of days ago he had been trying to get higher interest rates and inflation for three years as Bank of England policy, and now we are suppose to believe this is a bad thing ?Monksfield said:
Marmite's the tip of the iceberg. Dream On! Inflationary pressure is now here.Indigo said:
We already knew that every unpopular decision would be blamed on the Leave vote, whether or not it had anything to do with it. A 10% price rise on a product made entirely within the UK has nothing at all to do with it...Monksfield said:
Cheers to Bob Dylan..... Poet for our times...
Massive cheers to Jessica Ennis Hill. A better role model for modern Britain would be very hard to find. She had my vote for Spoty in 12 and 15 and will have it again this year. You were fab Jess!
And jeers to Tesco. If the anglish poond drops by more than 15%, prices are going to go up. Period. I noticed petrol was up by 2p at my local BP on the way home. This is the cost of taking back control.
As someone who doesn't actually live here I don't expect you'll get these things but once ordinary people are paying more to live, particularly on their mortgages if interest rates rise, and as always happens in the UK wages run behind, then they'll not have a great deal of time for Mervyn King or his view of inflation.
Indigo:
As someone not intimately acquainted with my personal affairs you have no idea who or what I am paying for in the UK so perhaps we can avoid badly informed personal comments ?
Let me see if I have this straight, Carney supposed Remain, he's a good chap, King supported Leave, he's satan ? Both did the same job for the same government for three years.
Monksfield:
You didn't get anything straight because you didn't respond to my point. We are going to have inflation and ordinary people will suffer most. The inflation is being driven by Brexit.
King and Carney are both irrelevant, I don't give a monkeys dongle about either of them, although I thought the recent drop in interest rates instigated by the latter was frankly idiotic. My personal view is that a return to higher interest rates is long overdue but I don't pretend that won't hurt many of my compatriots.0 -
Yes absolutely there is because we will get a hard Brexit with some form of trade deal. No negotiations and we get no deal at all.Indigo said:
Think I might have mentioned it once of twice over the past six monthsTCPoliticalBetting said:May be a hard Brexit is inevitable?
George Eaton ✔ @georgeeaton
EU president Donald Tusk: “The only real alternative to a hard Brexit is no Brexit." Europe's political priority is to avoid "soft" deal. At this stage and after the promises made at the CPC the "No BrExit" option would result in pitchforks in the street which means eventually it's hard BrExit. That being the case is there any merit in pissing around with it for two years ?0 -
GORILLA escapes from its enclosure 'by throwing itself through glass' and is on the loose for NINETY minutes before being shot with tranquiliser dart
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3836773/Armed-keepers-chase-Gorilla-escaped-London-Zoo.html0 -
I am coming round to that view as well. The EU is probably incapable of rational actions that are in the best interest of itself and its members. Where is the reform proposal that a rational body would have started to table by now?Indigo said:
Think I might have mentioned it once of twice over the past six monthsTCPoliticalBetting said:May be a hard Brexit is inevitable?
George Eaton ✔ @georgeeaton
EU president Donald Tusk: “The only real alternative to a hard Brexit is no Brexit." Europe's political priority is to avoid "soft" deal. At this stage and after the promises made at the CPC the "No BrExit" option would result in pitchforks in the street which means eventually it's hard BrExit. That being the case is there any merit in pissing around with it for two years ?
0
