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  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    National Tracker - Times-Picayune/Lucid - Sample 1,632 - 10-12 Oct

    Clinton 44 .. Trump 36

    https://luc.id/2016-presidential-tracker/
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,797

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    LEAVE 52%
    REMAIN 48%

    :innocent:

    On the days events....

    Cheers to Bob Dylan..... Poet for our times...

    Massive cheers to Jessica Ennis Hill. A better role model for modern Britain would be very hard to find. She had my vote for Spoty in 12 and 15 and will have it again this year. You were fab Jess!

    And jeers to Tesco. If the anglish poond drops by more than 15%, prices are going to go up. Period. I noticed petrol was up by 2p at my local BP on the way home. This is the cost of taking back control.

    We already knew that every unpopular decision would be blamed on the Leave vote, whether or not it had anything to do with it. A 10% price rise on a product made entirely within the UK has nothing at all to do with it...
    Marmite's the tip of the iceberg. Dream On! Inflationary pressure is now here.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320

    Trump in full flow. This is what a loser sounds like.

    Wrong. If he can bring out this kind of performance in the final debate he will win.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    He's now on about veterans. These were one of the first groups he attacked way back. Including McCain.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    FPT

    By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.

    No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.

    Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
    The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.

    But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.

    I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.
    It isn't wrong. It is the basic raison d'etre of the EU. It is written right there in the treaties and is confirmed each time the ECJ makes a decision based on those treaties. It was the openly stated aim of the founders of the EEC and has continued to be the basic direction of travel for the EEC/EU over the last 40 years.
    Just as well Dave got us an opt-out then wasn't it.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401

    Trump in full flow. This is what a loser sounds like.

    Wrong. If he can bring out this kind of performance in the final debate he will win.
    Too late. No ground game. No spend on ads. Insulted every demographic. It's over.
  • DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194

    Trump in full flow. This is what a loser sounds like.

    Wrong. If he can bring out this kind of performance in the final debate he will win.
    Maybe so. I despise this man but he is a great speaker, completely outclassing Clinton.
  • Trump: "I take all of these slings and arrows gladly for you, so that we can have our country back."

    Didnt someone claim Fargle is helping him again. I think that confirms it.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257

    FPT

    By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.

    No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.

    Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
    The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.

    But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.

    I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.
    1. If the Eurozone fails to federalise then how is the single currency ever to be made to work properly? The vast economic disparities between the member states can only be addressed through the issuance of common debt, by a common government that can raise common taxes, and by outright fiscal transfers - not through a combination of punitive austerity measures and massive loans (which, in the Greek case at least, the supplicant debtors have no realistic chance of ever repaying.)

    2. If the Eurozone federalises then it therefore follows that (a) states within it will cease to exist as sovereign entities, and (b) remaining non-Euro states will probably find themselves as fax democracies a la Norway.
    We thankfully avoided the Euro. What the Euro nations do is up to them. If they want to self-liquidate, so be it.

    The fax democracy description of Norway is another one of those tags that doesn't really help. It takes on a load of single market regulation so that it can trade effectively. Doesn't mean its not a sovereign nation.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    Dominic Cummings doesn't seem like a happy bunny over on Twitter.

    I get the feeling that Hammond has won the internal Cabinet war on Brexit.
  • May be a hard Brexit is inevitable?

    George Eaton ✔ @georgeeaton
    EU president Donald Tusk: “The only real alternative to a hard Brexit is no Brexit." Europe's political priority is to avoid "soft" deal.
  • FPT

    By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.

    No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.

    Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
    The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.

    But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.

    I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.
    1. If the Eurozone fails to federalise then how is the single currency ever to be made to work properly? The vast economic disparities between the member states can only be addressed through the issuance of common debt, by a common government that can raise common taxes, and by outright fiscal transfers - not through a combination of punitive austerity measures and massive loans (which, in the Greek case at least, the supplicant debtors have no realistic chance of ever repaying.)

    2. If the Eurozone federalises then it therefore follows that (a) states within it will cease to exist as sovereign entities, and (b) remaining non-Euro states will probably find themselves as fax democracies a la Norway.
    We thankfully avoided the Euro. What the Euro nations do is up to them. If they want to self-liquidate, so be it.

    The fax democracy description of Norway is another one of those tags that doesn't really help. It takes on a load of single market regulation so that it can trade effectively. Doesn't mean its not a sovereign nation.
    The fax democracy claim is also utterly false - another myth perpetuated by the Pro-EU lobby
  • JackW said:

    Speedy said:

    Oh how wrong you are OGH.

    Only the Suffolk, North Carolina poll was done after the debate, you have to look at the date of the surveys.

    Using only the national polls done after the debate it's an average Hillary lead nationally of 3.6%.

    She is leading by 2 in N.Carolina, by 3 in Florida by 2 on average in Nevada, all consistent with a national lead for Hillary of around 4 points.

    You are behind the curve, the debate did wonders for Trump and cancelled the Tape.

    You keep repeating this "Trump's debate victory" myth.

    All the polls showed a Clinton win. You relate to other polls regularly but choose to ignore the debate polls. Very odd.
    Imagine there were no polls on the debate at all, and look at all the other evidence of the campaign and other polling data. You would have to conclude that there was an event on Sunday that was favourable to Trump.
    No you'd be seeing a reversion to mean after the shock of the tapes wore off.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited October 2016
    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    Labour especially and particularly Corbyn.
  • TOPPING said:

    FPT

    By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.

    No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.

    Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
    The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.

    But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.

    I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.
    It isn't wrong. It is the basic raison d'etre of the EU. It is written right there in the treaties and is confirmed each time the ECJ makes a decision based on those treaties. It was the openly stated aim of the founders of the EEC and has continued to be the basic direction of travel for the EEC/EU over the last 40 years.
    Just as well Dave got us an opt-out then wasn't it.
    Still fighting yesterday's battles Topping? You already lost that one back in June.
  • DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194
    edited October 2016

    Trump in full flow. This is what a loser sounds like.

    Wrong. If he can bring out this kind of performance in the final debate he will win.
    Too late. No ground game. No spend on ads. Insulted every demographic. It's over.
    He's running an ad campaign concentrating on calling Clinton ill and physically weak, and the NRA are running a big ad too. Many signs being held up saying "Blacks for Trump".
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    FPT

    By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.

    No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.

    Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
    The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.

    But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.

    I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.
    1. If the Eurozone fails to federalise then how is the single currency ever to be made to work properly? The vast economic disparities between the member states can only be addressed through the issuance of common debt, by a common government that can raise common taxes, and by outright fiscal transfers - not through a combination of punitive austerity measures and massive loans (which, in the Greek case at least, the supplicant debtors have no realistic chance of ever repaying.)

    2. If the Eurozone federalises then it therefore follows that (a) states within it will cease to exist as sovereign entities, and (b) remaining non-Euro states will probably find themselves as fax democracies a la Norway.
    We thankfully avoided the Euro. What the Euro nations do is up to them. If they want to self-liquidate, so be it.

    The fax democracy description of Norway is another one of those tags that doesn't really help. It takes on a load of single market regulation so that it can trade effectively. Doesn't mean its not a sovereign nation.
    Same with EU membership. We were a sovereign nation despite us agreeing to a set of common rules in order for mutual benefit.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited October 2016
    weejonnie said:

    JackW said:

    Trump - "The highly respected Rasmussen poll .... "

    Laugh .... I nearly choked on my low calorie "meal" .... :smile:

    It was highly respected when it had Clinton in the lead - and so was the LA Times poll.
    No by me.

    Rasmussen is a basket case. Apparently 24% AA are voting Trump ... who knew ?!? and to make the LA Times tracker viable, 538 have to add +5 to the Clinton score.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    JackW said:

    National Tracker - Times-Picayune/Lucid - Sample 1,632 - 10-12 Oct

    Clinton 44 .. Trump 36

    https://luc.id/2016-presidential-tracker/

    One for Speedy!
  • murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    619 said:
    Simple but effective. This lady is so classy!
    Bit like how her husbands similar brilliant speech won it for Remain...oh.
    Not al all - Barack is also pure class - very different to right-wing, small-minded and bigoted dimwits like yourself!
    That is rather ott and unnecessesary. This is not the Jeremy Kyle show
  • Trump in full flow. This is what a loser sounds like.

    Wrong. If he can bring out this kind of performance in the final debate he will win.
    Too late. No ground game. No spend on ads. Insulted every demographic. It's over.
    With all the UK media reporting how terrible Trump is, one could get the impression that it is all over. The problem is there is no sense of balance or quoting facts or analysing the credibility of polls. Just very poor journalism. As usual.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.

    Can you name one power assumed by the EU which on reflection they decided more correctly lay with the nation states in accordance with the principles of subsidiarity ? No ? Neither can I.

    I cannot. But it is hardly likely the EU (Commission) would do so. You might ask the same of Westminster, or even your local parish council.

    It is for the nation states to repatriate powers if they think it advisable. The U.K. has been relatively unsuccessful at pushing this agenda probably because it has preferred and been quite successful at securing the individual opt-out.
    The thing is, Westminster and my local parish council were not mandated to do exactly that Article 5(3) of the Maastricht Treaty, guess which organisation was ;)
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited October 2016
    JackW said:

    National Tracker - Times-Picayune/Lucid - Sample 1,632 - 10-12 Oct

    Clinton 44 .. Trump 36

    https://luc.id/2016-presidential-tracker/

    Not a very credible tracker, they didn't show any plunge for Trump during the Tape.

    They showed him gaining during the Tape, and it's not a 7 day tracker, it's only a 2 day tracker so they have no excuse.

    They don't seem to respond with events.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    Labour especially and particularly Corbyn.
    British politics is two tramps fighting over the dregs in a can of Stella. The winner later discovers the dregs are piss.

    Enjoy your victory.
  • Indigo said:

    I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.

    Can you name one power assumed by the EU which on reflection they decided more correctly lay with the nation states in accordance with the principles of subsidiarity ? No ? Neither can I.

    I cannot. But it is hardly likely the EU (Commission) would do so. You might ask the same of Westminster, or even your local parish council.

    It is for the nation states to repatriate powers if they think it advisable. The U.K. has been relatively unsuccessful at pushing this agenda probably because it has preferred and been quite successful at securing the individual opt-out.
    Erm. Westminster has devolved vast amounts of power to Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland as well as to the regions and district councils at various times. I think that is a rather poor example for you to use.
  • Dromedary said:

    Trump: "This is our moment of reckoning as a society, and as a civilisation. I didn't need to do this. Believe me. (...) I'm doing it because this country has given me so much (...) and I feel so strongly that it's my turn to give back to the country that I love."

    "In my former life, I was an insider (...) Now I'm being punished for leaving the special club and revealing to you the terrible things that are going on."

    "Because I used to be part of the club, I'm the only one who can fix it".

    "The dark clouds hanging over our government can be lifted (...) It all depends on whether we let the corrupt media decide our future (...) or the American people decide our future"

    Speech clealy written by Fargle.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    Not at all. Proudest day of my life.

    Disappointing to see you've bought into the Remain camp wholesale.
  • Jonathan said:

    Aarrgghh the nasty EU man has a straight banana. Quick, let's trash the economy and make foreigners feel so uncomfortable here, they'll leave.

    And right there we have a perfect example of why you lost the referendum.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    TOPPING said:

    FPT

    By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.

    No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.

    Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
    The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.

    But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.

    I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.
    It isn't wrong. It is the basic raison d'etre of the EU. It is written right there in the treaties and is confirmed each time the ECJ makes a decision based on those treaties. It was the openly stated aim of the founders of the EEC and has continued to be the basic direction of travel for the EEC/EU over the last 40 years.
    Just as well Dave got us an opt-out then wasn't it.
    Still fighting yesterday's battles Topping? You already lost that one back in June.
    Nah. I lost that one but am ashamed of myself that I find it amusing to dangle a bone in front of the Brexiters before whisking it away as they snap.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    LEAVE 52%
    REMAIN 48%

    :innocent:

    On the days events....

    Cheers to Bob Dylan..... Poet for our times...

    Massive cheers to Jessica Ennis Hill. A better role model for modern Britain would be very hard to find. She had my vote for Spoty in 12 and 15 and will have it again this year. You were fab Jess!

    And jeers to Tesco. If the anglish poond drops by more than 15%, prices are going to go up. Period. I noticed petrol was up by 2p at my local BP on the way home. This is the cost of taking back control.

    We already knew that every unpopular decision would be blamed on the Leave vote, whether or not it had anything to do with it. A 10% price rise on a product made entirely within the UK has nothing at all to do with it...
    Marmite's the tip of the iceberg. Dream On! Inflationary pressure is now here.
    As Mervyn King told us a couple of days ago he had been trying to get higher interest rates and inflation for three years as Bank of England policy, and now we are suppose to believe this is a bad thing ?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    JackW said:

    weejonnie said:

    JackW said:

    Trump - "The highly respected Rasmussen poll .... "

    Laugh .... I nearly choked on my low calorie "meal" .... :smile:

    It was highly respected when it had Clinton in the lead - and so was the LA Times poll.
    No by me.

    Rasmussen is a basket case. Apparently 24% AA are voting Trump ... who knew ?!? and to make the LA Times tracker viable, 538 have to add +5 to the Clinton score.
    I add 6 to the LAT tracker, and from experience it lags about 5-7 days.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257

    FPT

    By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.

    No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.

    Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
    The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.

    But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.

    I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.
    It isn't wrong. It is the basic raison d'etre of the EU. It is written right there in the treaties and is confirmed each time the ECJ makes a decision based on those treaties. It was the openly stated aim of the founders of the EEC and has continued to be the basic direction of travel for the EEC/EU over the last 40 years.
    Nope. What Monnet may have dreamt is pretty irrelevant 60 years on. Let's play realpolitik, please. If you can point to an instance where the ECJ has ruled for the dissolution of a sovereign entity by reference to the preamble of the a Treaty of Rome, I will gladly reconsider.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    MaxPB said:

    Dominic Cummings doesn't seem like a happy bunny over on Twitter.

    I get the feeling that Hammond has won the internal Cabinet war on Brexit.
    It's over Matthew Goodwin (and others) on why Brexit won. Oh, and he's been goaded by an article on Aaron Banks as well.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    edited October 2016
    Jobabob said:

    Jobabob said:

    Jonathan said:
    Get off your soapbox Jonathan
    Be careful, you don't want to get hung out to dry.
    Do you expect me to just soak this abuse up??
    Well, we're used to spin.

    Edit: @SquareRoot OK, it was an obvious reply.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    Labour especially and particularly Corbyn.
    British politics is two tramps fighting over the dregs in a can of Stella. The winner later discovers the dregs are piss.

    Enjoy your victory.
    It must be sad to so hate your country and everything it stands for.
  • Jonathan said:

    Aarrgghh the nasty EU man has a straight banana. Quick, let's trash the economy and make foreigners feel so uncomfortable here, they'll leave.

    No one minded the straight banana. It was the EU making it illegal to sell the bent one, causing perfectly good food to go to landfill while people starved in Ethiopia that grated
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257

    FPT

    By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.

    No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.

    Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
    The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.

    But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.

    I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.
    1. If the Eurozone fails to federalise then how is the single currency ever to be made to work properly? The vast economic disparities between the member states can only be addressed through the issuance of common debt, by a common government that can raise common taxes, and by outright fiscal transfers - not through a combination of punitive austerity measures and massive loans (which, in the Greek case at least, the supplicant debtors have no realistic chance of ever repaying.)

    2. If the Eurozone federalises then it therefore follows that (a) states within it will cease to exist as sovereign entities, and (b) remaining non-Euro states will probably find themselves as fax democracies a la Norway.
    We thankfully avoided the Euro. What the Euro nations do is up to them. If they want to self-liquidate, so be it.

    The fax democracy description of Norway is another one of those tags that doesn't really help. It takes on a load of single market regulation so that it can trade effectively. Doesn't mean its not a sovereign nation.
    The fax democracy claim is also utterly false - another myth perpetuated by the Pro-EU lobby
    It's not my term. I think it's silly.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    No, 52% of us won.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    TOPPING said:

    FPT

    By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.

    No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.

    Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
    The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.

    But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.

    I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.
    It isn't wrong. It is the basic raison d'etre of the EU. It is written right there in the treaties and is confirmed each time the ECJ makes a decision based on those treaties. It was the openly stated aim of the founders of the EEC and has continued to be the basic direction of travel for the EEC/EU over the last 40 years.
    Just as well Dave got us an opt-out then wasn't it.
    Opt out. Yeah, right.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,797
    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    LEAVE 52%
    REMAIN 48%

    :innocent:

    On the days events....

    Cheers to Bob Dylan..... Poet for our times...

    Massive cheers to Jessica Ennis Hill. A better role model for modern Britain would be very hard to find. She had my vote for Spoty in 12 and 15 and will have it again this year. You were fab Jess!

    And jeers to Tesco. If the anglish poond drops by more than 15%, prices are going to go up. Period. I noticed petrol was up by 2p at my local BP on the way home. This is the cost of taking back control.

    We already knew that every unpopular decision would be blamed on the Leave vote, whether or not it had anything to do with it. A 10% price rise on a product made entirely within the UK has nothing at all to do with it...
    Marmite's the tip of the iceberg. Dream On! Inflationary pressure is now here.
    As Mervyn King told us a couple of days ago he had been trying to get higher interest rates and inflation for three years as Bank of England policy, and now we are suppose to believe this is a bad thing ?
    As someone who doesn't actually live here I don't expect you'll get these things but once ordinary people are paying more to live, particularly on their mortgages if interest rates rise, and as always happens in the UK wages run behind, then they'll not have a great deal of time for Mervyn King or his view of inflation.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    Not at all. Proudest day of my life.

    Disappointing to see you've bought into the Remain camp wholesale.
    The way Brexit is playing out is hugely upsetting. The way May and Rudd played it last week was hugely damaging. I am very angry.

    I should not have to explain to friends it's safe to visit the UK.
  • Trump in full flow. This is what a loser sounds like.

    Wrong. If he can bring out this kind of performance in the final debate he will win.
    Too late. No ground game. No spend on ads. Insulted every demographic. It's over.
    With all the UK media reporting how terrible Trump is, one could get the impression that it is all over. The problem is there is no sense of balance or quoting facts or analysing the credibility of polls. Just very poor journalism. As usual.
    Which means very good potential profit opportunities.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    Labour especially and particularly Corbyn.
    British politics is two tramps fighting over the dregs in a can of Stella. The winner later discovers the dregs are piss.

    Enjoy your victory.
    It must be sad to so hate your country and everything it stands for.
    I love my country. I hate it being trashed.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    No, 52% of us won.
    I thing we can all agree than everyone won except 3 people:

    David Cameron, George Osborne, and TSE.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited October 2016
    Speedy said:

    JackW said:

    National Tracker - Times-Picayune/Lucid - Sample 1,632 - 10-12 Oct

    Clinton 44 .. Trump 36

    https://luc.id/2016-presidential-tracker/

    Not a very credible tracker, they didn't show any plunge for Trump during the Tape.

    They showed him gaining during the Tape, and it's not a 7 day tracker, it's only a 2 day tracker so they have no excuse.

    They don't seem to respond with events.
    Is it panel based ? We saw the same happen in GE2015 with "panel based pollsters" which gave us more or less the same result for months, with people on here wondering not unreasonable why if you asked more or less the same people more or less the same question why you expected their answers to change over time.
  • FPT

    By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.

    No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.

    Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
    The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.

    But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.

    I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.
    It isn't wrong. It is the basic raison d'etre of the EU. It is written right there in the treaties and is confirmed each time the ECJ makes a decision based on those treaties. It was the openly stated aim of the founders of the EEC and has continued to be the basic direction of travel for the EEC/EU over the last 40 years.
    Nope. What Monnet may have dreamt is pretty irrelevant 60 years on. Let's play realpolitik, please. If you can point to an instance where the ECJ has ruled for the dissolution of a sovereign entity by reference to the preamble of the a Treaty of Rome, I will gladly reconsider.
    A stupid request since you don't dissolve a sovereign state overnight. What you do is slowly remove powers from the state and transfer them to the supra national entity. And when the states object you use the ECJ to overrule them. Now can anyone think of an example where that has been happening for the last 50 years or so?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    edited October 2016
    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    LEAVE 52%
    REMAIN 48%

    :innocent:

    On the days events....

    Cheers to Bob Dylan..... Poet for our times...

    Massive cheers to Jessica Ennis Hill. A better role model for modern Britain would be very hard to find. She had my vote for Spoty in 12 and 15 and will have it again this year. You were fab Jess!

    And jeers to Tesco. If the anglish poond drops by more than 15%, prices are going to go up. Period. I noticed petrol was up by 2p at my local BP on the way home. This is the cost of taking back control.

    We already knew that every unpopular decision would be blamed on the Leave vote, whether or not it had anything to do with it. A 10% price rise on a product made entirely within the UK has nothing at all to do with it...
    Marmite's the tip of the iceberg. Dream On! Inflationary pressure is now here.
    As Mervyn King told us a couple of days ago he had been trying to get higher interest rates and inflation for three years as Bank of England policy, and now we are suppose to believe this is a bad thing ?
    Well if there had been a 10% px increase at Tesco then in the fog of war that would have been put down to Brexit.

    We are now in a world where instead of having to take responsibility for their actions, a prime reason for PB Leavers for voting Out, governments and corporates will blame anything bad on the EU.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257

    Indigo said:

    I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.

    Can you name one power assumed by the EU which on reflection they decided more correctly lay with the nation states in accordance with the principles of subsidiarity ? No ? Neither can I.

    I cannot. But it is hardly likely the EU (Commission) would do so. You might ask the same of Westminster, or even your local parish council.

    It is for the nation states to repatriate powers if they think it advisable. The U.K. has been relatively unsuccessful at pushing this agenda probably because it has preferred and been quite successful at securing the individual opt-out.
    Erm. Westminster has devolved vast amounts of power to Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland as well as to the regions and district councils at various times. I think that is a rather poor example for you to use.
    Sorry, my sloppy language.

    My point is that bureaucracies do not devolve.

    Politicians do however, as Blair did with the nations and Osborne tried to do with the metros.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,797
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    Labour especially and particularly Corbyn.
    British politics is two tramps fighting over the dregs in a can of Stella. The winner later discovers the dregs are piss.

    Enjoy your victory.
    It must be sad to so hate your country and everything it stands for.
    I love my country. I hate it being trashed.
    Ditto.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    TOPPING said:

    FPT

    By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.

    No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.

    Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
    The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.

    But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.

    I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.
    1. If the Eurozone fails to federalise then how is the single currency ever to be made to work properly? The vast economic disparities between the member states can only be addressed through the issuance of common debt, by a common government that can raise common taxes, and by outright fiscal transfers - not through a combination of punitive austerity measures and massive loans (which, in the Greek case at least, the supplicant debtors have no realistic chance of ever repaying.)

    2. If the Eurozone federalises then it therefore follows that (a) states within it will cease to exist as sovereign entities, and (b) remaining non-Euro states will probably find themselves as fax democracies a la Norway.
    We thankfully avoided the Euro. What the Euro nations do is up to them. If they want to self-liquidate, so be it.

    The fax democracy description of Norway is another one of those tags that doesn't really help. It takes on a load of single market regulation so that it can trade effectively. Doesn't mean its not a sovereign nation.
    Same with EU membership. We were a sovereign nation despite us agreeing to a set of common rules in order for mutual benefit.
    By Article 1 of the Montevideo Convention, the EU qualifies as a state and its "member states" might not, as qualification (d) is restricted.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @TCPoliticalBetting

    'May be a hard Brexit is inevitable?

    George Eaton ✔ @georgeeaton
    EU president Donald Tusk: “The only real alternative to a hard Brexit is no Brexit." Europe's political priority is to avoid "soft" deal.'


    So no need for endless time wasting debate in the HoC of soft v hard brexit,Tusk has clarified it for us.

  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    The straight banana rules were brought in to stop carribean imports to the EU.
  • TOPPING said:

    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    LEAVE 52%
    REMAIN 48%

    :innocent:

    On the days events....

    Cheers to Bob Dylan..... Poet for our times...

    Massive cheers to Jessica Ennis Hill. A better role model for modern Britain would be very hard to find. She had my vote for Spoty in 12 and 15 and will have it again this year. You were fab Jess!

    And jeers to Tesco. If the anglish poond drops by more than 15%, prices are going to go up. Period. I noticed petrol was up by 2p at my local BP on the way home. This is the cost of taking back control.

    We already knew that every unpopular decision would be blamed on the Leave vote, whether or not it had anything to do with it. A 10% price rise on a product made entirely within the UK has nothing at all to do with it...
    Marmite's the tip of the iceberg. Dream On! Inflationary pressure is now here.
    As Mervyn King told us a couple of days ago he had been trying to get higher interest rates and inflation for three years as Bank of England policy, and now we are suppose to believe this is a bad thing ?
    Well if there had been a 10% px increase at Tesco then in the fog of war that would have been put down to Brexit.

    We are now in a world where instead of having to take responsibility for their actions, a prime reason for PB Leavers for voting Out, governments and corporates will blame anything bad on the EU.
    But thankfully in this day and age there are plenty of resources to use to show that they are being dishonest - just as happened to Unilever today.

    I sometimes think that even after 20 years or more of the internet and information on demand (even if it does need to be filtered through a haze of misinformation at times) governments and corporations still haven't got the new reality yet.
  • DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194

    Dromedary said:

    Trump: "This is our moment of reckoning as a society, and as a civilisation. I didn't need to do this. Believe me. (...) I'm doing it because this country has given me so much (...) and I feel so strongly that it's my turn to give back to the country that I love."

    "In my former life, I was an insider (...) Now I'm being punished for leaving the special club and revealing to you the terrible things that are going on."

    "Because I used to be part of the club, I'm the only one who can fix it".

    "The dark clouds hanging over our government can be lifted (...) It all depends on whether we let the corrupt media decide our future (...) or the American people decide our future"

    Speech clealy written by Fargle.
    Trump even said in the speech that 8 Nov would be "independence day".
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320

    Jonathan said:

    Aarrgghh the nasty EU man has a straight banana. Quick, let's trash the economy and make foreigners feel so uncomfortable here, they'll leave.

    No one minded the straight banana. It was the EU making it illegal to sell the bent one, causing perfectly good food to go to landfill while people starved in Ethiopia that grated
    Such a tangled web of propaganda has addled your brain.

    The banana issue is far more complex than the absurdities of defining a banana that any trade agreement that covers bananas deals with.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/mar/05/eu.wto3
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited October 2016

    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    LEAVE 52%
    REMAIN 48%

    :innocent:

    On the days events....

    Cheers to Bob Dylan..... Poet for our times...

    Massive cheers to Jessica Ennis Hill. A better role model for modern Britain would be very hard to find. She had my vote for Spoty in 12 and 15 and will have it again this year. You were fab Jess!

    And jeers to Tesco. If the anglish poond drops by more than 15%, prices are going to go up. Period. I noticed petrol was up by 2p at my local BP on the way home. This is the cost of taking back control.

    We already knew that every unpopular decision would be blamed on the Leave vote, whether or not it had anything to do with it. A 10% price rise on a product made entirely within the UK has nothing at all to do with it...
    Marmite's the tip of the iceberg. Dream On! Inflationary pressure is now here.
    As Mervyn King told us a couple of days ago he had been trying to get higher interest rates and inflation for three years as Bank of England policy, and now we are suppose to believe this is a bad thing ?
    As someone who doesn't actually live here I don't expect you'll get these things but once ordinary people are paying more to live, particularly on their mortgages if interest rates rise, and as always happens in the UK wages run behind, then they'll not have a great deal of time for Mervyn King or his view of inflation.
    As someone not intimately acquainted with my personal affairs you have no idea who or what I am paying for in the UK so perhaps we can avoid badly informed personal comments ?

    Let me see if I have this straight, Carney supposed Remain, he's a good chap, King supported Leave, he's satan ? Both did the same job for the same government for three years.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    john_zims said:

    @TCPoliticalBetting

    'May be a hard Brexit is inevitable?

    George Eaton ✔ @georgeeaton
    EU president Donald Tusk: “The only real alternative to a hard Brexit is no Brexit." Europe's political priority is to avoid "soft" deal.'


    So no need for endless time wasting debate in the HoC of soft v hard brexit,Tusk has clarified it for us.

    I'm not surprised.

    As I said the EU is too emotional right now to react rationally, proper negotiations can only start after we leave the EU and things have cooled down.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    Labour especially and particularly Corbyn.
    British politics is two tramps fighting over the dregs in a can of Stella. The winner later discovers the dregs are piss.

    Enjoy your victory.
    It must be sad to so hate your country and everything it stands for.
    I love my country. I hate it being trashed.
    Its not being trashed - except by people like you describing it as a can of piss.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205

    But thankfully in this day and age there are plenty of resources to use to show that they are being dishonest - just as happened to Unilever today.

    I sometimes think that even after 20 years or more of the internet and information on demand (even if it does need to be filtered through a haze of misinformation at times) governments and corporations still haven't got the new reality yet.

    The bigger problem is that some have.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257

    FPT

    By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.

    No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.

    Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
    The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.

    But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.

    I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.
    It isn't wrong. It is the basic raison d'etre of the EU. It is written right there in the treaties and is confirmed each time the ECJ makes a decision based on those treaties. It was the openly stated aim of the founders of the EEC and has continued to be the basic direction of travel for the EEC/EU over the last 40 years.
    Nope. What Monnet may have dreamt is pretty irrelevant 60 years on. Let's play realpolitik, please. If you can point to an instance where the ECJ has ruled for the dissolution of a sovereign entity by reference to the preamble of the a Treaty of Rome, I will gladly reconsider.
    A stupid request since you don't dissolve a sovereign state overnight. What you do is slowly remove powers from the state and transfer them to the supra national entity. And when the states object you use the ECJ to overrule them. Now can anyone think of an example where that has been happening for the last 50 years or so?
    Well, you can.
    I just see a political construct which we, as a sovereign nation and signatory, can attempt to influence - or not.

    As it is, two of the EU's finest achievements - maybe THE two achievements: the single market and east European enlargement - were British initiatives. You can add the ECHR to that although not part of the EU machinery per se.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Dromedary said:

    Dromedary said:

    Trump: "This is our moment of reckoning as a society, and as a civilisation. I didn't need to do this. Believe me. (...) I'm doing it because this country has given me so much (...) and I feel so strongly that it's my turn to give back to the country that I love."

    "In my former life, I was an insider (...) Now I'm being punished for leaving the special club and revealing to you the terrible things that are going on."

    "Because I used to be part of the club, I'm the only one who can fix it".

    "The dark clouds hanging over our government can be lifted (...) It all depends on whether we let the corrupt media decide our future (...) or the American people decide our future"

    Speech clealy written by Fargle.
    Trump even said in the speech that 8 Nov would be "independence day".
    Now where have I heard that before ?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320

    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    No, 52% of us won.
    Leave won a Pyrrhic victory that will destroy their case morally, intellectually and economically in the fullness of time.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    Not at all. Proudest day of my life.

    Disappointing to see you've bought into the Remain camp wholesale.
    The way Brexit is playing out is hugely upsetting. The way May and Rudd played it last week was hugely damaging. I am very angry.

    .
    Mrs May clearly did this to Remainers at the Tory Conference:

    https://youtu.be/R1ZU6UMDfgY
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    Not at all. Proudest day of my life.

    Disappointing to see you've bought into the Remain camp wholesale.
    The way Brexit is playing out is hugely upsetting. The way May and Rudd played it last week was hugely damaging. I am very angry.

    I should not have to explain to friends it's safe to visit the UK.
    You must live in a very strange little bubble. I can safely say that I have not had to apologise to or reassure a single non British friend or colleague since the referendum.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316

    FPT

    By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.

    No it is not. When has the EU ever stopped seeking to centralise more and more power to itself, and when has it tolerated any meaningful moves to return competences to member states? The commitment to ever closer union is enshrined in the Treaty of Rome and taken very seriously.

    Besides, it won't let go of the Euro for love nor money, and that alone requires a federal treasury accountable to a federal government to make it work.
    The Comission, like all bureaucracies, will always try to centralise more power. Separately, the nation states have consistently found more things to cooperate on.

    But this is not the same thing as nation states dissolving themselves. Indeed, in the tussle between nation states and the Commission, the former do come out on top.

    I'm certainly not saying EU governance is perfect - far from! - but the idea that it is a one way traffic to supranational serfdom is simply wrong. And very dangerous; it creates a mythical monster against which we are seem willing to sacrifice actual prosperity.
    It isn't wrong. It is the basic raison d'etre of the EU. It is written right there in the treaties and is confirmed each time the ECJ makes a decision based on those treaties. It was the openly stated aim of the founders of the EEC and has continued to be the basic direction of travel for the EEC/EU over the last 40 years.
    Nope. What Monnet may have dreamt is pretty irrelevant 60 years on. Let's play realpolitik, please. If you can point to an instance where the ECJ has ruled for the dissolution of a sovereign entity by reference to the preamble of the a Treaty of Rome, I will gladly reconsider.
    A stupid request since you don't dissolve a sovereign state overnight. What you do is slowly remove powers from the state and transfer them to the supra national entity. And when the states object you use the ECJ to overrule them. Now can anyone think of an example where that has been happening for the last 50 years or so?
    Well, you can.
    I just see a political construct which we, as a sovereign nation and signatory, can attempt to influence - or not.

    As it is, two of the EU's finest achievements - maybe THE two achievements: the single market and east European enlargement - were British initiatives. You can add the ECHR to that although not part of the EU machinery per se.
    so theyre fked without us.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    Not at all. Proudest day of my life.

    Disappointing to see you've bought into the Remain camp wholesale.
    The way Brexit is playing out is hugely upsetting. The way May and Rudd played it last week was hugely damaging. I am very angry.

    I should not have to explain to friends it's safe to visit the UK.
    No, you shouldn't. Why do you?
  • Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    No, 52% of us won.
    Leave won a Pyrrhic victory that will destroy their case morally, intellectually and economically in the fullness of time.
    Keep dreaming William.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Speedy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    No, 52% of us won.
    I thing we can all agree than everyone won except 3 people:

    David Cameron, George Osborne, and TSE.
    Meeks.
  • Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited October 2016
    PAW said:

    The straight banana rules were brought in to stop carribean imports to the EU.

    They banned battybananas?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    Not at all. Proudest day of my life.

    Disappointing to see you've bought into the Remain camp wholesale.
    The way Brexit is playing out is hugely upsetting. The way May and Rudd played it last week was hugely damaging. I am very angry.

    .
    Mrs May clearly did this to Remainers at the Tory Conference:

    https://youtu.be/R1ZU6UMDfgY
    Struggling to follow.
    Does that mean Brexiters are sitting in their armchairs shouting "I love my brick"?

    If so, you're spot on.
  • But thankfully in this day and age there are plenty of resources to use to show that they are being dishonest - just as happened to Unilever today.

    I sometimes think that even after 20 years or more of the internet and information on demand (even if it does need to be filtered through a haze of misinformation at times) governments and corporations still haven't got the new reality yet.

    The bigger problem is that some have.
    Fair point.
  • Speedy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    No, 52% of us won.
    I thing we can all agree than everyone won except 3 people:

    David Cameron, George Osborne, and TSE.
    Ouch (but a bit harsh on TSE! :lol: )
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    No, 52% of us won.
    Leave won a Pyrrhic victory that will destroy their case morally, intellectually and economically in the fullness of time.
    Good luck with the Rejoin campaign.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    Not at all. Proudest day of my life.

    Disappointing to see you've bought into the Remain camp wholesale.
    The way Brexit is playing out is hugely upsetting. The way May and Rudd played it last week was hugely damaging. I am very angry.

    I should not have to explain to friends it's safe to visit the UK.
    I can see you're angry. But it's still the same old Britain. The trouble is that Brexit is such a big event that any, and every, development can (and is) being directly attributed to it; it sells copy, and no news story can be overexaggerated.

    You can unpick virtually everything by looking at the detail; from the total non-story of marmitegate to so-called "surges" in hate crime.

    I expect we have a very bumpy ride ahead of us for the next 3 years.
  • May be a hard Brexit is inevitable?

    George Eaton ✔ @georgeeaton
    EU president Donald Tusk: “The only real alternative to a hard Brexit is no Brexit." Europe's political priority is to avoid "soft" deal.

    Shades of Maggie there!

    "There is no alternative!" :lol:
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    May be a hard Brexit is inevitable?

    George Eaton ✔ @georgeeaton
    EU president Donald Tusk: “The only real alternative to a hard Brexit is no Brexit." Europe's political priority is to avoid "soft" deal.

    Of course. He speaks the truth.

    There is Real Brexit or eternal subservience.

    I suspect that May will win a very substantial majority on a platform of Real Brexit in a general election next year. I also suspect that she is going to do things much more sharply than either the EU or SNP will be able to cope with. There is little point giving the initiative to them.
  • Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited October 2016

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    Not at all. Proudest day of my life.

    Disappointing to see you've bought into the Remain camp wholesale.
    The way Brexit is playing out is hugely upsetting. The way May and Rudd played it last week was hugely damaging. I am very angry.

    .
    Mrs May clearly did this to Remainers at the Tory Conference:

    https://youtu.be/R1ZU6UMDfgY
    Struggling to follow.
    Does that mean Brexiters are sitting in their armchairs shouting "I love my brick"?

    If so, you're spot on.
    No the remainers were just starting to quieten down when they tripped over and then got hit on the head by Mrs May wielding brick (tripping oved the brick being a metaphor for Article 50 by March 31st followed by Brexit Means hard Brexit when she metaphorically threw the brick at them)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    Labour especially and particularly Corbyn.
    British politics is two tramps fighting over the dregs in a can of Stella. The winner later discovers the dregs are piss.

    Enjoy your victory.
    I'm certainly enjoying our victory.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    Jobabob said:

    JackW said:

    National Tracker - Times-Picayune/Lucid - Sample 1,632 - 10-12 Oct

    Clinton 44 .. Trump 36

    https://luc.id/2016-presidential-tracker/

    One for Speedy!
    Yes, but that is, quite literally, a picayune poll.
    :-)
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    May be a hard Brexit is inevitable?

    George Eaton ✔ @georgeeaton
    EU president Donald Tusk: “The only real alternative to a hard Brexit is no Brexit." Europe's political priority is to avoid "soft" deal.

    Think I might have mentioned it once of twice over the past six months ;) At this stage and after the promises made at the CPC the "No BrExit" option would result in pitchforks in the street which means eventually it's hard BrExit. That being the case is there any merit in pissing around with it for two years ?
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    Paul_Bedfordshire - http://www.globalissues.org/article/63/the-banana-trade-war - in the EU you get the regulations you pay for.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,257

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    Not at all. Proudest day of my life.

    Disappointing to see you've bought into the Remain camp wholesale.
    The way Brexit is playing out is hugely upsetting. The way May and Rudd played it last week was hugely damaging. I am very angry.

    I should not have to explain to friends it's safe to visit the UK.
    You must live in a very strange little bubble. I can safely say that I have not had to apologise to or reassure a single non British friend or colleague since the referendum.
    I have had to reassure non-British employees.
    Only natural to be concerned when your residency status becomes a political football (this is independent of the argument for or against Brexit though).
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Sean_F said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    Labour especially and particularly Corbyn.
    British politics is two tramps fighting over the dregs in a can of Stella. The winner later discovers the dregs are piss.

    Enjoy your victory.
    I'm certainly enjoying our victory.
    A surprising number of people seem to think the EU is our lifeline and, if we cut the umbilical cord linking us to it, the whole UK economy will collapse.

    In reality, the worst that happens according to the most contorted Osbornomics available is (apart from the short-term disruption) that we grow slightly more slowly than we might have done had we stayed.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    You have to feel sorry for right wing women. They are apparently living in a culture where it's normal behaviour for men to:
    - brag about groping women without permission
    - walk in on 15 year olds while they are naked
    - insert their genitals into a dead pig's mouth

    And before anyone denies one of those, remember we are talking about what right wing women have defended as normal behaviour, not whether the accounts were accurate or not.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    I see "marmitegate" has resolved itself in barely 24 hours:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37650234
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,455
    edited October 2016

    I see "marmitegate" has resolved itself in barely 24 hours:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37650234

    I am sure it won't stop Fasal Islam ScottP (re)tweeting about it.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Speedy said:




    I thing we can all agree than everyone won except 3 people:

    David Cameron, George Osborne, and TSE.

    Isn't Les Aigles moving to Paris? Surely that's a big win for a Francophile like him!
  • I see "marmitegate" has resolved itself in barely 24 hours:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37650234

    I am sure it won't stop Fasal Islam ScottP (re)tweeting about it.
    :smile:
    What does Pasty_Scott do for a living?

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,455
    edited October 2016

    I see "marmitegate" has resolved itself in barely 24 hours:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37650234

    I am sure it won't stop Fasal Islam ScottP (re)tweeting about it.
    :smile:
    What does Pasty_Scott do for a living?

    One thing is for certain, he isn't a professional Game Show Contestant....

    Behind 2 doors is a Fasal Islam tweet and behind the other is a ScottP re(tweet)...You pick a door and the host asks if you want stick or switch...

    Answer...Doesn't matter, you get the same answer whichever door is opened.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Freggles said:

    You have to feel sorry for right wing women. They are apparently living in a culture where it's normal behaviour for men to:
    - brag about groping women without permission
    - walk in on 15 year olds while they are naked
    - insert their genitals into a dead pig's mouth

    And before anyone denies one of those, remember we are talking about what right wing women have defended as normal behaviour, not whether the accounts were accurate or not.

    Remind me again, which parties have never elected a female leader?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320
    edited October 2016

    Jonathan said:

    Indigo said:

    FPT:

    It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.

    You may construe it that way. I do not.
    And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
    Happily what you construe is of only incidental interest ;)

    To quote Sir Thomas More

    The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law.
    Your Brexiteering Utopia has very little chance of becoming reality. Hopefully you realise this before we 48 percenters are consigned to the Tower!
    You lost.
    We all lost.
    No, 52% of us won.
    Leave won a Pyrrhic victory that will destroy their case morally, intellectually and economically in the fullness of time.
    Keep dreaming William.
    One of the first casualties is your integrity given your prior vehement advocacy of the EEA option.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Nevada - Public Opinion Strategies - Sample 600 - 11-12 Oct

    Clinton 45 .. Trump 39

    http://www.ktnv.com/news/ralston/heck-hanging-onto-lead-trump-falling-behind-in-new-gop-poll
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited October 2016
    Freggles said:

    You have to feel sorry for right wing women. They are apparently living in a culture where it's normal behaviour for men to:
    - brag about groping women without permission
    - walk in on 15 year olds while they are naked
    - insert their genitals into a dead pig's mouth
    And before anyone denies one of those, remember we are talking about what right wing women have defended as normal behaviour, not whether the accounts were accurate or not.

    The right wing women in my life get treated like queens and princesses and know where to deliver a verbal or physical blow if any scumbags take liberties.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,797
    edited October 2016
    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:



    Cheers to Bob Dylan..... Poet for our times...

    Massive cheers to Jessica Ennis Hill. A better role model for modern Britain would be very hard to find. She had my vote for Spoty in 12 and 15 and will have it again this year. You were fab Jess!

    And jeers to Tesco. If the anglish poond drops by more than 15%, prices are going to go up. Period. I noticed petrol was up by 2p at my local BP on the way home. This is the cost of taking back control.

    We already knew that every unpopular decision would be blamed on the Leave vote, whether or not it had anything to do with it. A 10% price rise on a product made entirely within the UK has nothing at all to do with it...
    Marmite's the tip of the iceberg. Dream On! Inflationary pressure is now here.
    As Mervyn King told us a couple of days ago he had been trying to get higher interest rates and inflation for three years as Bank of England policy, and now we are suppose to believe this is a bad thing ?
    Monksfield:

    As someone who doesn't actually live here I don't expect you'll get these things but once ordinary people are paying more to live, particularly on their mortgages if interest rates rise, and as always happens in the UK wages run behind, then they'll not have a great deal of time for Mervyn King or his view of inflation.

    Indigo:

    As someone not intimately acquainted with my personal affairs you have no idea who or what I am paying for in the UK so perhaps we can avoid badly informed personal comments ?

    Let me see if I have this straight, Carney supposed Remain, he's a good chap, King supported Leave, he's satan ? Both did the same job for the same government for three years.

    Monksfield:

    You didn't get anything straight because you didn't respond to my point. We are going to have inflation and ordinary people will suffer most. The inflation is being driven by Brexit.

    King and Carney are both irrelevant, I don't give a monkeys dongle about either of them, although I thought the recent drop in interest rates instigated by the latter was frankly idiotic. My personal view is that a return to higher interest rates is long overdue but I don't pretend that won't hurt many of my compatriots.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    Freggles said:

    You have to feel sorry for right wing women. They are apparently living in a culture where it's normal behaviour for men to:
    - brag about groping women without permission
    - walk in on 15 year olds while they are naked
    - insert their genitals into a dead pig's mouth

    And before anyone denies one of those, remember we are talking about what right wing women have defended as normal behaviour, not whether the accounts were accurate or not.

    Remind me again, which parties have never elected a female leader?
    So women should be free to be whatever they want as long as it's a sex object or Tory leader? :lol:
  • Indigo said:

    May be a hard Brexit is inevitable?

    George Eaton ✔ @georgeeaton
    EU president Donald Tusk: “The only real alternative to a hard Brexit is no Brexit." Europe's political priority is to avoid "soft" deal.

    Think I might have mentioned it once of twice over the past six months ;) At this stage and after the promises made at the CPC the "No BrExit" option would result in pitchforks in the street which means eventually it's hard BrExit. That being the case is there any merit in pissing around with it for two years ?
    Yes absolutely there is because we will get a hard Brexit with some form of trade deal. No negotiations and we get no deal at all.
  • GORILLA escapes from its enclosure 'by throwing itself through glass' and is on the loose for NINETY minutes before being shot with tranquiliser dart

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3836773/Armed-keepers-chase-Gorilla-escaped-London-Zoo.html
  • Indigo said:

    May be a hard Brexit is inevitable?

    George Eaton ✔ @georgeeaton
    EU president Donald Tusk: “The only real alternative to a hard Brexit is no Brexit." Europe's political priority is to avoid "soft" deal.

    Think I might have mentioned it once of twice over the past six months ;) At this stage and after the promises made at the CPC the "No BrExit" option would result in pitchforks in the street which means eventually it's hard BrExit. That being the case is there any merit in pissing around with it for two years ?
    I am coming round to that view as well. The EU is probably incapable of rational actions that are in the best interest of itself and its members. Where is the reform proposal that a rational body would have started to table by now?

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