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  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    PlatoSaid said:

    After deep scepticism, May has convinced me with that speech. No autocue either.

    I'm almost back in Tory fold.

    You were always in the RIGHT WING Tory fold. Don't pretend otherwise.
  • One thing's for certain: Cameron and the liberal wing of the Tory party will be broken and humiliated. Everything they ever stood for has been annihilated by May's grovelling capitulation to the hard right. Let's face it, she might as well have produced a giant statue of Farage and invited us all to bow before it.
  • One thing's for certain: Cameron and the liberal wing of the Tory party will be broken and humiliated. Everything they ever stood for has been annihilated by May's grovelling capitulation to the hard right. Let's face it, she might as well have produced a giant statue of Farage and invited us all to bow before it.

    That's just silly
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    SeanT said:

    Indigo said:

    May does not sound like someone who was backing Remain during the campaign. Very strong and powerful.

    She did the minimum possible to sound loyal to Cameron, ready to emerge as the unity candidate when he fell. She's played the politics very, very well.

    A lot of language in the speech re: sovereignty, not going back under the authority of the ECJ, and restoring control over immigration. Think we can safely consign any EEA model to the dustbin, if we haven't already done so.
    Yes, rock-hard Brexit is on the way. I have some sympathy. The Tory hard-right Leave faction is not something you'd cross if you want the quiet life.
    Or possibly it matches her own point of view, see the delight with which she ditched Osborne. People talk about her folly in putting Boris, Davis and Fox in those jobs, they might want to consider they got those jobs because she shares their views, even if she keeps it rather quiet.
    There were clever subtle hints, however, that it WON'T be rock hard. "There will be compromise". "There will be give and take." "I want as much access as possible to the EU for our companies, and the same for EU companies here"

    She's going for a bespoke deal with as much Single Market access as possible, but with "control" of Free Movement. To me it sounds like she is prepared to offer continued UK contributions.

    We'll see.
    I suspect we're going to end up staying in the Single Market, with quite a lot of control over immigration. After the French and German establishments get beaten up in their elections next year, "free movement of people" will probably be on its way out anyway.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,165

    One thing's for certain: Cameron and the liberal wing of the Tory party will be broken and humiliated. Everything they ever stood for has been annihilated by May's grovelling capitulation to the hard right. Let's face it, she might as well have produced a giant statue of Farage and invited us all to bow before it.

    Erm, May was a reformer before Cameron took over. I've got my one nation centrist party back from Osbornian interventions.....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,614

    One thing's for certain: Cameron and the liberal wing of the Tory party will be broken and humiliated. Everything they ever stood for has been annihilated by May's grovelling capitulation to the hard right. Let's face it, she might as well have produced a giant statue of Farage and invited us all to bow before it.

    You mean this bit:

    May says existing workers’ rights will continue to apply as long as she remains PM.
    She says she wants to enhance workers’ rights too.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/oct/02/conservative-conference-may-to-explain-brexit-great-repeal-bill-in-marr-interview-politics-live
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    No doubt the Great Repeal Bill will result in interesting Parliamentary maneouvers both in the Commons and in the Lords.

    If the Lib Dem peers all vote No it will be interesting to see how the crossbenchers vote.
    Could the bill fail in the Lords?

    Parliament Act will over rule the unelected House of Lords
    But the Lords can obstruct the passage of legislation for a year before the Parliament Act may be invoked to bypass them. Government could justify going to country as means to avoid a year of Parliamentary limbo caused by a tiny number of unelected Remain ultras, acting in defiance of both the Commons and the electorate.
    The government's time scale allows the year to invoke the Parliament Act
    Its not a year its the remainder of that parliamentary session (ie until after the next Queens speech. So it could be as little as a couple of months.
    Tim Farron on Sky just now talking rubbish and so out of touch with the democraric will of the people. He speaks about lib dem local results recently as if he is the rising star in the firmanent. Deluded
    I've never seen him be anything other than a teenage nitwit. Norman would've been miles better.
  • One thing's for certain: Cameron and the liberal wing of the Tory party will be broken and humiliated. Everything they ever stood for has been annihilated by May's grovelling capitulation to the hard right. Let's face it, she might as well have produced a giant statue of Farage and invited us all to bow before it.

    I thought it was the Leavers who were supposed to be bitter.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,793
    Mortimer said:

    One thing's for certain: Cameron and the liberal wing of the Tory party will be broken and humiliated. Everything they ever stood for has been annihilated by May's grovelling capitulation to the hard right. Let's face it, she might as well have produced a giant statue of Farage and invited us all to bow before it.

    Erm, May was a reformer before Cameron took over. I've got my one nation centrist party back from Osbornian interventions.....
    Absolutely. A great speech from Mrs May, and followed by another from David Davis.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,042
    PlatoSaid said:

    No doubt the Great Repeal Bill will result in interesting Parliamentary maneouvers both in the Commons and in the Lords.

    If the Lib Dem peers all vote No it will be interesting to see how the crossbenchers vote.
    Could the bill fail in the Lords?

    Parliament Act will over rule the unelected House of Lords
    But the Lords can obstruct the passage of legislation for a year before the Parliament Act may be invoked to bypass them. Government could justify going to country as means to avoid a year of Parliamentary limbo caused by a tiny number of unelected Remain ultras, acting in defiance of both the Commons and the electorate.
    The government's time scale allows the year to invoke the Parliament Act
    Its not a year its the remainder of that parliamentary session (ie until after the next Queens speech. So it could be as little as a couple of months.
    Tim Farron on Sky just now talking rubbish and so out of touch with the democraric will of the people. He speaks about lib dem local results recently as if he is the rising star in the firmanent. Deluded
    I've never seen him be anything other than a teenage nitwit. Norman would've been miles better.
    Farrow was the right choice, until Labour chose Corbyn.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Sounds like we are definitely leaving the Single Market.

    Better buy some land in Ireland. Nissan, Toyota, Honda moving there. Or rather, building new plants.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,614
    surbiton said:

    Sounds like we are definitely leaving the Single Market.

    Better buy some land in Ireland. Nissan, Toyota, Honda moving there. Or rather, building new plants.
    Like they did when we didn't join the Euro?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    SeanT said:

    Indigo said:

    May does not sound like someone who was backing Remain during the campaign. Very strong and powerful.

    She did the minimum possible to sound loyal to Cameron, ready to emerge as the unity candidate when he fell. She's played the politics very, very well.

    A lot of language in the speech re: sovereignty, not going back under the authority of the ECJ, and restoring control over immigration. Think we can safely consign any EEA model to the dustbin, if we haven't already done so.
    Yes, rock-hard Brexit is on the way. I have some sympathy. The Tory hard-right Leave faction is not something you'd cross if you want the quiet life.
    Or possibly it matches her own point of view, see the delight with which she ditched Osborne. People talk about her folly in putting Boris, Davis and Fox in those jobs, they might want to consider they got those jobs because she shares their views, even if she keeps it rather quiet.
    There were clever subtle hints, however, that it WON'T be rock hard. "There will be compromise". "There will be give and take." "I want as much access as possible to the EU for our companies, and the same for EU companies here"

    She's going for a bespoke deal with as much Single Market access as possible, but with "control" of Free Movement. To me it sounds like she is prepared to offer continued UK contributions.

    We'll see.
    Access isn't the same as membership, the USA has access. The problem as usual with these speeches is separating what is actual objective from what is for party consumption, and what is for consumption in Brussels, who will have been listening with interest of course.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,020
    SeanT said:

    If the Lords try to block the GRACT then the Lords will be stuffed, or abolished. It would be constitutional suicide to obstruct the will of the people, expressed in a direct vote, and with the biggest mandate in British electoral history. A vote, moreover, on the most important political change in living memory.

    Do these derelict punks feel lucky? Well, do they?

    It will pass.

    "the will of the people, expressed in a direct vote, and with the biggest mandate"
    Don't exaggerate the 'will of the people' wasn't hugely one way or another, less than 4% in it. There isn't a mandate for 'hard Brexit'.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,614
    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    One thing's for certain: Cameron and the liberal wing of the Tory party will be broken and humiliated. Everything they ever stood for has been annihilated by May's grovelling capitulation to the hard right. Let's face it, she might as well have produced a giant statue of Farage and invited us all to bow before it.

    Erm, May was a reformer before Cameron took over. I've got my one nation centrist party back from Osbornian interventions.....
    Absolutely. A great speech from Mrs May, and followed by another from David Davis.
    And both singing from the same hymn sheet.......
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    SeanT said:

    If the Lords try to block the GRACT then the Lords will be stuffed, or abolished. It would be constitutional suicide to obstruct the will of the people, expressed in a direct vote, and with the biggest mandate in British electoral history. A vote, moreover, on the most important political change in living memory.

    Do these derelict punks feel lucky? Well, do they?

    It will pass.

    "the will of the people, expressed in a direct vote, and with the biggest mandate"
    Don't exaggerate the 'will of the people' wasn't hugely one way or another, less than 4% in it. There isn't a mandate for 'hard Brexit'.
    There is only a mandate to leave the EU, that's it. There is a mandate to pump £350m per week into the NHS.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    One thing's for certain: Cameron and the liberal wing of the Tory party will be broken and humiliated. Everything they ever stood for has been annihilated by May's grovelling capitulation to the hard right. Let's face it, she might as well have produced a giant statue of Farage and invited us all to bow before it.

    You mean this bit:

    May says existing workers’ rights will continue to apply as long as she remains PM.
    She says she wants to enhance workers’ rights too.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/oct/02/conservative-conference-may-to-explain-brexit-great-repeal-bill-in-marr-interview-politics-live
    What did you expect, Stark Raving was eye wateringly bitter about this before the referendum.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 27,034

    No doubt the Great Repeal Bill will result in interesting Parliamentary maneouvers both in the Commons and in the Lords.

    If the Lib Dem peers all vote No it will be interesting to see how the crossbenchers vote.
    Could the bill fail in the Lords?

    Parliament Act will over rule the unelected House of Lords
    But the Lords can obstruct the passage of legislation for a year before the Parliament Act may be invoked to bypass them. Government could justify going to country as means to avoid a year of Parliamentary limbo caused by a tiny number of unelected Remain ultras, acting in defiance of both the Commons and the electorate.
    The government's time scale allows the year to invoke the Parliament Act
    Its not a year its the remainder of that parliamentary session (ie until after the next Queens speech. So it could be as little as a couple of months.
    Tim Farron on Sky just now talking rubbish and so out of touch with the democraric will of the people. He speaks about lib dem local results recently as if he is the rising star in the firmanent. Deluded
    One wonders if the Great Repeal Bill could actually fail in the Commons? Unlikely given enough arm-twisting on the Tory side i.e. vote this down and you will not have a seat in 2020.
    It will pass easily with the positive support of a large number of labour , dup and ukip mps, all of whom respecting the vote of the people. The anger that any mps will receive who votes against will be huge
    Please do not say that as Josias Jessop thinks it is just vengeance by LEAVErs... After all he is right about most walking matters.
    LOL. that was rather a pathetic attack. I suggest you go back to the last thread and read what I wrote.

    It's sad to see the hard right of the Conservative Party acting in a similar manner to the hard left of Labour when it comes to MPs who disagree with them.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,693
    Mr. T, still can't believe Le Pen will win. Might get to the run-off.

    I wonder what time the Hungarian results will come in.
  • SeanT said:

    If the Lords try to block the GRACT then the Lords will be stuffed, or abolished. It would be constitutional suicide to obstruct the will of the people, expressed in a direct vote, and with the biggest mandate in British electoral history. A vote, moreover, on the most important political change in living memory.

    Do these derelict punks feel lucky? Well, do they?

    It will pass.

    "the will of the people, expressed in a direct vote, and with the biggest mandate"
    Don't exaggerate the 'will of the people' wasn't hugely one way or another, less than 4% in it. There isn't a mandate for 'hard Brexit'.
    So if the Referendum had gone the other way by 4% you would be arguing there was no mandate for Remain.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    One thing's for certain: Cameron and the liberal wing of the Tory party will be broken and humiliated. Everything they ever stood for has been annihilated by May's grovelling capitulation to the hard right. Let's face it, she might as well have produced a giant statue of Farage and invited us all to bow before it.

    Erm, May was a reformer before Cameron took over. I've got my one nation centrist party back from Osbornian interventions.....
    Absolutely. A great speech from Mrs May, and followed by another from David Davis.
    And both singing from the same hymn sheet.......
    Carlotta can change her opinions very quickly. To be fair, Fitalass doe snot.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    Sounds like we are definitely leaving the Single Market.

    Better buy some land in Ireland. Nissan, Toyota, Honda moving there. Or rather, building new plants.
    Like they did when we didn't join the Euro?
    Not joining the Euro did not mean 10% tariff.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 21,189

    Mr. T, still can't believe Le Pen will win. Might get to the run-off.

    I wonder what time the Hungarian results will come in.

    I'd have thought it is certain that Le Pen will make the run-off and almost certain that she won't win. And it will probably be that way in the next few French Presidential elections.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    SeanT said:

    If the Lords try to block the GRACT then the Lords will be stuffed, or abolished. It would be constitutional suicide to obstruct the will of the people, expressed in a direct vote, and with the biggest mandate in British electoral history. A vote, moreover, on the most important political change in living memory.

    Do these derelict punks feel lucky? Well, do they?

    It will pass.

    "the will of the people, expressed in a direct vote, and with the biggest mandate"
    Don't exaggerate the 'will of the people' wasn't hugely one way or another, less than 4% in it. There isn't a mandate for 'hard Brexit'.
    "Hard" BrExit doesn't exist any more than "Soft" BrExit does, its a remainer fantasy to try and split their opposition. We either leave the EU and become a sovereign nation, or we don't. You can't be a bit in control of your borders and laws, either the British Government controls them, or Brussels does.
  • glwglw Posts: 7,939
    surbiton said:

    There is only a mandate to leave the EU, that's it.

    The EU isn't very interested in a deal, so we will get hard brexit by default. May at least is clear on that.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,614

    Mr. T, still can't believe Le Pen will win. Might get to the run-off.

    I wonder what time the Hungarian results will come in.

    They may not reach the turnout threshold:

    To be valid, turnout needs to be over 50%. Four hours before the end of voting the figure was about 30%.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37528325
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 27,034
    My local MP being interviewed on BBC 24.

    How come my last few MPs (who I voted for) have all been fairly attractive women?

    Am I that shallow? :)
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    If the Lords try to block the GRACT then the Lords will be stuffed, or abolished. It would be constitutional suicide to obstruct the will of the people, expressed in a direct vote, and with the biggest mandate in British electoral history. A vote, moreover, on the most important political change in living memory.

    Do these derelict punks feel lucky? Well, do they?

    It will pass.

    "the will of the people, expressed in a direct vote, and with the biggest mandate"
    Don't exaggerate the 'will of the people' wasn't hugely one way or another, less than 4% in it. There isn't a mandate for 'hard Brexit'.
    There is only a mandate to leave the EU, that's it. There is a mandate to pump £350m per week into the NHS.
    Nope, the government never promised, or even suggested that it would. A pressure group said it would be a possibility, it still seems to shock remainers that Cummings and Elliott are not the government of the UK.
  • Sounds like the only way the minions would have got more excited over May's speech was if they had lowered a giant banana from the rafters.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    When are the Racists going to win in Hungary ?
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Sandpit said:

    MTimT said:

    SNL last night ripped into Hillary for using James Brown's "I feel good' coming onto stage at a husting post the debate. Michael Che (who is black) said that "If Hillary had any black friends, she'd know that James Brown died of pneumonia"

    MikeK, hope you get well soon.

    First five minutes of this rips them both to shreds.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=FO6SSdplULI
    One of the best SNLs ever - at least the bit I stayed awake for. The skit on the sink hole was hilarious.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Indigo said:

    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    If the Lords try to block the GRACT then the Lords will be stuffed, or abolished. It would be constitutional suicide to obstruct the will of the people, expressed in a direct vote, and with the biggest mandate in British electoral history. A vote, moreover, on the most important political change in living memory.

    Do these derelict punks feel lucky? Well, do they?

    It will pass.

    "the will of the people, expressed in a direct vote, and with the biggest mandate"
    Don't exaggerate the 'will of the people' wasn't hugely one way or another, less than 4% in it. There isn't a mandate for 'hard Brexit'.
    There is only a mandate to leave the EU, that's it. There is a mandate to pump £350m per week into the NHS.
    Nope, the government never promised, or even suggested that it would. A pressure group said it would be a possibility, it still seems to shock remainers that Cummings and Elliott are not the government of the UK.
    Remember, the "government" side lost. The pressure group is now the government.
  • Sounds like the only way the minions would have got more excited over May's speech was if they had lowered a giant banana from the rafters.

    Not if it was a straight banana.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 21,189
    SeanT said:

    tlg86 said:

    Mr. T, still can't believe Le Pen will win. Might get to the run-off.

    I wonder what time the Hungarian results will come in.

    I'd have thought it is certain that Le Pen will make the run-off and almost certain that she won't win. And it will probably be that way in the next few French Presidential elections.
    The bookies see it differently, likesay (though we know they can be wrong). They have her at 7/2 or 4/1. That is a non-negligible chance.

    If the vote was held now, she'd lose. If there are three more Nice-style attacks before the vote, she wins?

    Have things changed that much since 2002? I know she isn't as toxic as her dad, but if the choice is her or Juppe/Sarkozy, the Left will vote for the latter. The only way she wins is if she's up against a Left candidate and even then I think it would be a long shot.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Mr. T, still can't believe Le Pen will win. Might get to the run-off.

    I wonder what time the Hungarian results will come in.

    They may not reach the turnout threshold:

    To be valid, turnout needs to be over 50%. Four hours before the end of voting the figure was about 30%.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37528325
    Turnout needs to be 50% to be binding on the government, which they are hoping for because it makes their parliamentary and political games easier to play ("Don't look at me, its what the people wanted"), below 50% its an advisory referendum and needs to be ratified by the government, which will probably still happen, but is more awkward politically.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    Sounds like we are definitely leaving the Single Market.

    Better buy some land in Ireland. Nissan, Toyota, Honda moving there. Or rather, building new plants.
    Like they did when we didn't join the Euro?
    Not joining the Euro did not mean 10% tariff.

    But it was an effective tariff in that non-EZ companies had currency transaction costs that EZ countries did not. Not 10% but probably in the order of 1-2% (I'll happily stand corrected by someone with first hand experience on this)
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    surbiton said:

    Indigo said:

    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    If the Lords try to block the GRACT then the Lords will be stuffed, or abolished. It would be constitutional suicide to obstruct the will of the people, expressed in a direct vote, and with the biggest mandate in British electoral history. A vote, moreover, on the most important political change in living memory.

    Do these derelict punks feel lucky? Well, do they?

    It will pass.

    "the will of the people, expressed in a direct vote, and with the biggest mandate"
    Don't exaggerate the 'will of the people' wasn't hugely one way or another, less than 4% in it. There isn't a mandate for 'hard Brexit'.
    There is only a mandate to leave the EU, that's it. There is a mandate to pump £350m per week into the NHS.
    Nope, the government never promised, or even suggested that it would. A pressure group said it would be a possibility, it still seems to shock remainers that Cummings and Elliott are not the government of the UK.
    Remember, the "government" side lost. The pressure group is now the government.
    Could you point me to the ministerial positions held by Cummings and Elliott ?
  • Theresa May's speech today gave the immediate answers on A50, the legal process of leaving and taking back contol of our borders.

    Later in the week she will enhance workers rights, take in hand board room excesses and put a sympathetic tone into benefits. No doubt she will go further to the centre in other matters.

    It does make you wonder how labour mps must be feeling today after their recent disasters and the prospect of some of them, indeed many of them, ever being in Parliament again after 2020
  • glw said:

    surbiton said:

    There is only a mandate to leave the EU, that's it.

    The EU isn't very interested in a deal, so we will get hard brexit by default. May at least is clear on that.
    Indeed. EEA, the 'Norway Model' and the test of that alphabet soup have now been exposed as the hollow mockery they always were. (I've yet to decide if they're proponents were genuinely duplicitous or just useful idiots.) We face a grim future of forever tugging our forelocks as Liam Fox tells us how unproductive we are.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    MTimT said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    Sounds like we are definitely leaving the Single Market.

    Better buy some land in Ireland. Nissan, Toyota, Honda moving there. Or rather, building new plants.
    Like they did when we didn't join the Euro?
    Not joining the Euro did not mean 10% tariff.

    But it was an effective tariff in that non-EZ companies had currency transaction costs that EZ countries did not. Not 10% but probably in the order of 1-2% (I'll happily stand corrected by someone with first hand experience on this)
    It worked both ways. 10% tariff will not make much difference to BMW or Mercedes. Do you think I will swap my BMW for a Micra ? I will pay 10% more. BMW may even reduce the price like they do in Denmark because they have 25% VAT.

    But will Micra sell in the EU with 10% added ?
  • Sounds like the only way the minions would have got more excited over May's speech was if they had lowered a giant banana from the rafters.

    Has there been a greater rapture since the Quiet Man addressed the merry throng?
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Indigo said:

    SeanT said:

    Indigo said:

    May does not sound like someone who was backing Remain during the campaign. Very strong and powerful.

    She did the minimum possible to sound loyal to Cameron, ready to emerge as the unity candidate when he fell. She's played the politics very, very well.

    A lot of language in the speech re: sovereignty, not going back under the authority of the ECJ, and restoring control over immigration. Think we can safely consign any EEA model to the dustbin, if we haven't already done so.
    Yes, rock-hard Brexit is on the way. I have some sympathy. The Tory hard-right Leave faction is not something you'd cross if you want the quiet life.
    Or possibly it matches her own point of view, see the delight with which she ditched Osborne. People talk about her folly in putting Boris, Davis and Fox in those jobs, they might want to consider they got those jobs because she shares their views, even if she keeps it rather quiet.
    There were clever subtle hints, however, that it WON'T be rock hard. "There will be compromise". "There will be give and take." "I want as much access as possible to the EU for our companies, and the same for EU companies here"

    She's going for a bespoke deal with as much Single Market access as possible, but with "control" of Free Movement. To me it sounds like she is prepared to offer continued UK contributions.

    We'll see.
    Access isn't the same as membership, the USA has access. The problem as usual with these speeches is separating what is actual objective from what is for party consumption, and what is for consumption in Brussels, who will have been listening with interest of course.
    Indeed, public speeches such as these, if they are well written, are for multiple audiences. I think we should just relax until we have some hard data. Although, reading the coffee dregs is entertaining.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Indigo said:

    surbiton said:

    Indigo said:

    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    If the Lords try to block the GRACT then the Lords will be stuffed, or abolished. It would be constitutional suicide to obstruct the will of the people, expressed in a direct vote, and with the biggest mandate in British electoral history. A vote, moreover, on the most important political change in living memory.

    Do these derelict punks feel lucky? Well, do they?

    It will pass.

    "the will of the people, expressed in a direct vote, and with the biggest mandate"
    Don't exaggerate the 'will of the people' wasn't hugely one way or another, less than 4% in it. There isn't a mandate for 'hard Brexit'.
    There is only a mandate to leave the EU, that's it. There is a mandate to pump £350m per week into the NHS.
    Nope, the government never promised, or even suggested that it would. A pressure group said it would be a possibility, it still seems to shock remainers that Cummings and Elliott are not the government of the UK.
    Remember, the "government" side lost. The pressure group is now the government.
    Could you point me to the ministerial positions held by Cummings and Elliott ?
    The three bastards are in Foreign, Foreign Trade and EU EXit.
  • Spurs were best priced 20-1 for the title before today's game yet Liverpool were I think circa 5-1.

    Now that was value it seems....
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,693
    Mr. T, I just think the French will vote for whoever she faces in the run-off, assuming she gets to it.

    More chance of Hofer winning in Austria.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    PlatoSaid said:

    I've never seen him be anything other than a teenage nitwit. Norman would've been miles better.

    Farron was always a hopeless choice, but the logical one for a party that had chosen to repudiate Clegg and swing leftwards.

    Events since have served to demonstrate that the best path was to stick with a combination of social liberalism and the free market, and try to win back the Yellow Tory vote. Few voters to the Lib Dems' right will now believe that they are still in the game for anything other than to form an anti-Tory coalition for voting reform (and are willing to put Corbyn and Salmond into power to do it,) and most people to the Left have abandoned them for the Greens or Labour already and have no intention of ever coming back again.

    Wittering about a tiny handful of local council by-elections is not going to convince anyone that they are making meaningful progress, either. Back in the May elections there were only very modest net gains in the English councils (although it was notable that they actually lost Stockport to Labour.) They made a couple of constituency gains at Holyrood from the SNP, but overall they were unchanged on seats and became the fifth party behind the Greens. The Welsh assembly result was a cataclysm. They went into the General Election polling at about 8% of the vote, they won only about 8% of the vote, and are still stuck on 8% of national VI today. The notional results calculated by Wells for the revised seat boundaries show the Lib Dems with a notional majority in just three seats in England and Wales, and within 10% of the leading party in only a dozen more (and they won't be able to exploit an incumbency advantage in most of those.) Values aren't yet available for Scotland, but the equivalent figures there are probably just the one seat, with two or three more marginals available.

    The Lib Dems are going to need to recover substantial vote shares from all of their rivals and convert all of their best chances just to get back to the 20 seats they won under Paddy Ashdown in 1992. As it is, come the next GE, they'll be doing quite well just to get their popular vote share back into double figures.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    SeanT said:

    Mr. T, still can't believe Le Pen will win. Might get to the run-off.

    I wonder what time the Hungarian results will come in.

    She's 4/1 in the bookies, so a 20% chance. I give Sarko a 20-30% chance. Juppe is clear favourite (he's about evens).

    So nearly a 50% chance either Sarko or Le Pen will win, shaking the EU up, once again.






    I think it's highly likely that there is a majority in France for a major change in its relationship with the EU. But I think Le Pen's chances are minimal, certainly less than the implied 20%, as many French people just cannot bring themselves to vote for her, even if they are sympathetic to the anti-EU views she espouses. Much like many GOPers cannot bring themselves to vote Trump.

    If Sarkozy makes the run off, I think there is a very good chance he will win. However, to do that, he has to beat Le Pen. So my money is definitely on Juppe.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited October 2016
    surbiton said:

    MTimT said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    Sounds like we are definitely leaving the Single Market.

    Better buy some land in Ireland. Nissan, Toyota, Honda moving there. Or rather, building new plants.
    Like they did when we didn't join the Euro?
    Not joining the Euro did not mean 10% tariff.

    But it was an effective tariff in that non-EZ companies had currency transaction costs that EZ countries did not. Not 10% but probably in the order of 1-2% (I'll happily stand corrected by someone with first hand experience on this)
    It worked both ways. 10% tariff will not make much difference to BMW or Mercedes. Do you think I will swap my BMW for a Micra ? I will pay 10% more. BMW may even reduce the price like they do in Denmark because they have 25% VAT.

    But will Micra sell in the EU with 10% added ?
    It worked both ways with currency transactions just as it will with tariffs. No difference except the number.

    But you have an excellent point on price elasticity and margins (ability of the companies to absorb increased costs).
  • Best £10 I've spent for a while!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,693
    Mr. Observer, are you referring to my F1 tip?

    Post-race analysis up here:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/malaysia-post-race-analysis-2016.html
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 46,159

    Theresa May's speech today gave the immediate answers on A50, the legal process of leaving and taking back contol of our borders.

    Later in the week she will enhance workers rights, take in hand board room excesses and put a sympathetic tone into benefits. No doubt she will go further to the centre in other matters.

    It does make you wonder how labour mps must be feeling today after their recent disasters and the prospect of some of them, indeed many of them, ever being in Parliament again after 2020

    Long years of grinding opposition await those Lab MPs with, say, a 10% majority or more. The rest will be joining their erstwhile Scottish cousins on the job market come May 2020.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,040
    edited October 2016

    Best £10 I've spent for a while!

    thing is, I'm not actually "that" surprised we've won......

    now that is a good sign.

    TSE also said he'd bet on us winning today too....
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 33,292

    Best £10 I've spent for a while!

    A good loser!
  • Spurs were best priced 20-1 for the title before today's game yet Liverpool were I think circa 5-1.

    Now that was value it seems....

    I told you Spurs were going to win.

    Tidy little profit too.

    Now to reinvest my winnings on Europe winning the Ryder Cup
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,030
    COYS
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,785
    Last week, there were 14 standing ovations during Big Brother Jeremy Corbyn's speech. Today, our pathetic, unpopular and out-of-touch so-called prime minister Theresa May only got 2.

    On the other hand, the Conservative Party conference has the impressive brilliant display of inspiring fatuous slogans ("A Country That Works For Everyone") on the balconies, and not just on the backdrop.

    Enver Hoxha managed to combine both of these brilliantisms:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jwZ37MnYbiw
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    PlatoSaid said:

    After deep scepticism, May has convinced me with that speech. No autocue either.

    I'm almost back in Tory fold.

    Might you Trump that too ? ...
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,030

    Theresa May's speech today gave the immediate answers on A50, the legal process of leaving and taking back contol of our borders.

    Later in the week she will enhance workers rights, take in hand board room excesses and put a sympathetic tone into benefits. No doubt she will go further to the centre in other matters.

    It does make you wonder how labour mps must be feeling today after their recent disasters and the prospect of some of them, indeed many of them, ever being in Parliament again after 2020

    Long years of grinding opposition await those Lab MPs with, say, a 10% majority or more. The rest will be joining their erstwhile Scottish cousins on the job market come May 2020.
    Well you know politics isn't as simple as that. With the right leader and enough boots on the ground, Labour could get much closer.

    Oh.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 33,292

    Best £10 I've spent for a while!

    thing is, I'm not actually "that" surprised we've won......

    now that is a good sign.

    TSE also said he'd bet on us winning today too....
    The key for Spurs will be to keep it up for the whole season and not tire out as we did at the end of last season.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    JohnLoony said:

    Last week, there were 14 standing ovations during Big Brother Jeremy Corbyn's speech. Today, our pathetic, unpopular and out-of-touch so-called prime minister Theresa May only got 2.

    On the other hand, the Conservative Party conference has the impressive brilliant display of inspiring fatuous slogans ("A Country That Works For Everyone") on the balconies, and not just on the backdrop.

    Enver Hoxha managed to combine both of these brilliantisms:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jwZ37MnYbiw

    Reminds me a bit of the way that quite often during election declarations the candidate with the lowest number of votes gets the loudest cheer.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    edited October 2016
    JohnLoony said:

    Last week, there were 14 standing ovations during Big Brother Jeremy Corbyn's speech. Today, our pathetic, unpopular and out-of-touch so-called prime minister Theresa May only got 2.

    On the other hand, the Conservative Party conference has the impressive brilliant display of inspiring fatuous slogans ("A Country That Works For Everyone") on the balconies, and not just on the backdrop.

    Enver Hoxha managed to combine both of these brilliantisms:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jwZ37MnYbiw

    But that's just the politics of Enver.

    ed. to add copyright in that joke belongs to the late tim.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    surbiton said:

    Indigo said:

    surbiton said:

    Indigo said:

    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    If the Lords try to block the GRACT then the Lords will be stuffed, or abolished. It would be constitutional suicide to obstruct the will of the people, expressed in a direct vote, and with the biggest mandate in British electoral history. A vote, moreover, on the most important political change in living memory.

    Do these derelict punks feel lucky? Well, do they?

    It will pass.

    "the will of the people, expressed in a direct vote, and with the biggest mandate"
    Don't exaggerate the 'will of the people' wasn't hugely one way or another, less than 4% in it. There isn't a mandate for 'hard Brexit'.
    There is only a mandate to leave the EU, that's it. There is a mandate to pump £350m per week into the NHS.
    Nope, the government never promised, or even suggested that it would. A pressure group said it would be a possibility, it still seems to shock remainers that Cummings and Elliott are not the government of the UK.
    Remember, the "government" side lost. The pressure group is now the government.
    Could you point me to the ministerial positions held by Cummings and Elliott ?
    The three bastards are in Foreign, Foreign Trade and EU EXit.
    So let me get this right, three Leave supporting politicians, none of whom were the Chairman, CEO or PR/Policy Director of Vote Leave are in government positions, but are not PM, and this commits the elected government to the positions floated by Vote Leave ? Well its a view I suppose.
  • SeanT said:

    Indigo said:

    May does not sound like someone who was backing Remain during the campaign. Very strong and powerful.

    She did the minimum possible to sound loyal to Cameron, ready to emerge as the unity candidate when he fell. She's played the politics very, very well.

    A lot of language in the speech re: sovereignty, not going back under the authority of the ECJ, and restoring control over immigration. Think we can safely consign any EEA model to the dustbin, if we haven't already done so.
    Yes, rock-hard Brexit is on the way. I have some sympathy. The Tory hard-right Leave faction is not something you'd cross if you want the quiet life.
    Or possibly it matches her own point of view, see the delight with which she ditched Osborne. People talk about her folly in putting Boris, Davis and Fox in those jobs, they might want to consider they got those jobs because she shares their views, even if she keeps it rather quiet.
    ....
    She's going for a bespoke deal with as much Single Market access as possible, but with "control" of Free Movement. To me it sounds like she is prepared to offer continued UK contributions. ....
    OK providing that any contributions to the EU are part of our 0.7% overseas aid contribution.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 33,292

    SeanT said:

    Indigo said:

    May does not sound like someone who was backing Remain during the campaign. Very strong and powerful.

    She did the minimum possible to sound loyal to Cameron, ready to emerge as the unity candidate when he fell. She's played the politics very, very well.

    A lot of language in the speech re: sovereignty, not going back under the authority of the ECJ, and restoring control over immigration. Think we can safely consign any EEA model to the dustbin, if we haven't already done so.
    Yes, rock-hard Brexit is on the way. I have some sympathy. The Tory hard-right Leave faction is not something you'd cross if you want the quiet life.
    Or possibly it matches her own point of view, see the delight with which she ditched Osborne. People talk about her folly in putting Boris, Davis and Fox in those jobs, they might want to consider they got those jobs because she shares their views, even if she keeps it rather quiet.
    ....
    She's going for a bespoke deal with as much Single Market access as possible, but with "control" of Free Movement. To me it sounds like she is prepared to offer continued UK contributions. ....
    OK providing that any contributions to the EU are part of our 0.7% overseas aid contribution.
    I'd settle for that.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    :smiley:

    Johnson: "EU trying to veto ivory ban despite having a president called Donald Tusk". Here's a photo of him #CPC16 https://t.co/GCJ07A6JZW
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,821
    Indigo said:

    SeanT said:

    If the Lords try to block the GRACT then the Lords will be stuffed, or abolished. It would be constitutional suicide to obstruct the will of the people, expressed in a direct vote, and with the biggest mandate in British electoral history. A vote, moreover, on the most important political change in living memory.

    Do these derelict punks feel lucky? Well, do they?

    It will pass.

    "the will of the people, expressed in a direct vote, and with the biggest mandate"
    Don't exaggerate the 'will of the people' wasn't hugely one way or another, less than 4% in it. There isn't a mandate for 'hard Brexit'.
    "Hard" BrExit doesn't exist any more than "Soft" BrExit does, its a remainer fantasy to try and split their opposition. We either leave the EU and become a sovereign nation, or we don't. You can't be a bit in control of your borders and laws, either the British Government controls them, or Brussels does.
    Dear god not another capitalisation option in this debate.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,614
    Ian Dunt not a fan:

    The lunatics at the Tory conference applauded all of this. They cheered the Union, even as May announced the greatest strain she could possibly impose on it. They cheered when a speaker mentioned Gibraltar, even though it was now at risk like never before. They cheered dreams of British economic greatness, which are now in jeopardy precisely because of the policy they were jubilant about.

    http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/02/may-speech-makes-it-clear-we-re-leaving-the-single-market
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Boris remains a total class act

    Superb performance at conference.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Chrisg0000
    Boris Johnson has just made a speech about liberalism that no libdem has made for a century. Brilliant.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Ian Dunt not a fan:

    The lunatics at the Tory conference applauded all of this. They cheered the Union, even as May announced the greatest strain she could possibly impose on it. They cheered when a speaker mentioned Gibraltar, even though it was now at risk like never before. They cheered dreams of British economic greatness, which are now in jeopardy precisely because of the policy they were jubilant about.

    http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/02/may-speech-makes-it-clear-we-re-leaving-the-single-market

    Also on politics.co.uk:

    *Momentum conference should give the left hope
    *Corbyn shows extraordinary bravery standing up for immigrants
    *Unite chief: British media must be taken over and defeated
    *Rachel Reeves' comments on immigration could encourage hate attacks
    *Living wage 'a disaster' for low paid workers (written by the president of the Corbyn-backing Bakers' Union)
    *Opposition to the Canada-EU trade deal has reached a tipping point
    *Surge of religious influence in our education system (by the British Humanist Association)

    This is only a slightly edited highlights package. Going to that site looking for a positive slant on a Tory conference speech would be rather like expecting Conservative Home to sing the praises of John McDonnell.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Spectator
    Full text: Boris Johnson’s conference speech https://t.co/CNkPisK1ZK https://t.co/OE1JZZuaYS
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 33,292
    SeanT said:

    Ian Dunt not a fan:

    The lunatics at the Tory conference applauded all of this. They cheered the Union, even as May announced the greatest strain she could possibly impose on it. They cheered when a speaker mentioned Gibraltar, even though it was now at risk like never before. They cheered dreams of British economic greatness, which are now in jeopardy precisely because of the policy they were jubilant about.

    http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/02/may-speech-makes-it-clear-we-re-leaving-the-single-market

    Dunt is a dipstick

    He tweeted this:

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/775259599846924288

    He's one of the ultra-Remainers who actively hates Britain and Britishness. I'm glad he's depressed.
    The tyson of journalists.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 46,159
    MaxPB said:

    SeanT said:

    Ian Dunt not a fan:

    The lunatics at the Tory conference applauded all of this. They cheered the Union, even as May announced the greatest strain she could possibly impose on it. They cheered when a speaker mentioned Gibraltar, even though it was now at risk like never before. They cheered dreams of British economic greatness, which are now in jeopardy precisely because of the policy they were jubilant about.

    http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/02/may-speech-makes-it-clear-we-re-leaving-the-single-market

    Dunt is a dipstick

    He tweeted this:

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/775259599846924288

    He's one of the ultra-Remainers who actively hates Britain and Britishness. I'm glad he's depressed.
    The tyson of journalists.
    He's right though, at least about the strain on the Union.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    SeanT said:

    Ian Dunt not a fan:

    The lunatics at the Tory conference applauded all of this. They cheered the Union, even as May announced the greatest strain she could possibly impose on it. They cheered when a speaker mentioned Gibraltar, even though it was now at risk like never before. They cheered dreams of British economic greatness, which are now in jeopardy precisely because of the policy they were jubilant about.

    http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/02/may-speech-makes-it-clear-we-re-leaving-the-single-market

    Dunt is a dipstick

    He tweeted this:

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/775259599846924288

    He's one of the ultra-Remainers who actively hates Britain and Britishness. I'm glad he's depressed.
    He did some fab plagiarism expose a few years ago - but his bias is beyond silly now. He's not someone I bother with nowadays.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,236

    MaxPB said:

    SeanT said:

    Ian Dunt not a fan:

    The lunatics at the Tory conference applauded all of this. They cheered the Union, even as May announced the greatest strain she could possibly impose on it. They cheered when a speaker mentioned Gibraltar, even though it was now at risk like never before. They cheered dreams of British economic greatness, which are now in jeopardy precisely because of the policy they were jubilant about.

    http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/02/may-speech-makes-it-clear-we-re-leaving-the-single-market

    Dunt is a dipstick

    He tweeted this:

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/775259599846924288

    He's one of the ultra-Remainers who actively hates Britain and Britishness. I'm glad he's depressed.
    The tyson of journalists.
    He's right though, at least about the strain on the Union.
    IMO, Brexit strengthens the Union, because it raises the cost of leaving it.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,236

    Ian Dunt not a fan:

    The lunatics at the Tory conference applauded all of this. They cheered the Union, even as May announced the greatest strain she could possibly impose on it. They cheered when a speaker mentioned Gibraltar, even though it was now at risk like never before. They cheered dreams of British economic greatness, which are now in jeopardy precisely because of the policy they were jubilant about.

    http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/02/may-speech-makes-it-clear-we-re-leaving-the-single-market

    If he's upset, the Conservatives must be doing something right.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 46,159
    Subliminal messaging to George Osborne.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Will Mchoebag
    Placard-waving lefties take to the streets demanding the hanging of Tories, to whom they refer as "the nasty party" with no irony.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,789
    Sean_F said:

    MaxPB said:

    SeanT said:

    Ian Dunt not a fan:

    The lunatics at the Tory conference applauded all of this. They cheered the Union, even as May announced the greatest strain she could possibly impose on it. They cheered when a speaker mentioned Gibraltar, even though it was now at risk like never before. They cheered dreams of British economic greatness, which are now in jeopardy precisely because of the policy they were jubilant about.

    http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/02/may-speech-makes-it-clear-we-re-leaving-the-single-market

    Dunt is a dipstick

    He tweeted this:

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/775259599846924288

    He's one of the ultra-Remainers who actively hates Britain and Britishness. I'm glad he's depressed.
    The tyson of journalists.
    He's right though, at least about the strain on the Union.
    IMO, Brexit strengthens the Union, because it raises the cost of leaving it.
    We're repealing the 'Great' out of Britain.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,614
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    MaxPB said:

    SeanT said:

    Ian Dunt not a fan:

    The lunatics at the Tory conference applauded all of this. They cheered the Union, even as May announced the greatest strain she could possibly impose on it. They cheered when a speaker mentioned Gibraltar, even though it was now at risk like never before. They cheered dreams of British economic greatness, which are now in jeopardy precisely because of the policy they were jubilant about.

    http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/02/may-speech-makes-it-clear-we-re-leaving-the-single-market

    Dunt is a dipstick

    He tweeted this:

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/775259599846924288

    He's one of the ultra-Remainers who actively hates Britain and Britishness. I'm glad he's depressed.
    The tyson of journalists.
    He's right though, at least about the strain on the Union.
    IMO, Brexit strengthens the Union, because it raises the cost of leaving it.
    Hard Brexit makes Sindy, economically, almost impossible, on so many levels. Though the Scots might still be minded to risk it. Who knows.
    The 'we should protect 15% of our Trade by sacrificing 60% of it' line needs work....

    And the 'EU Fisheries Policy is Great' doesn't play too well in the North East.....
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 46,159
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    MaxPB said:

    SeanT said:

    Ian Dunt not a fan:

    The lunatics at the Tory conference applauded all of this. They cheered the Union, even as May announced the greatest strain she could possibly impose on it. They cheered when a speaker mentioned Gibraltar, even though it was now at risk like never before. They cheered dreams of British economic greatness, which are now in jeopardy precisely because of the policy they were jubilant about.

    http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/02/may-speech-makes-it-clear-we-re-leaving-the-single-market

    Dunt is a dipstick

    He tweeted this:

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/775259599846924288

    He's one of the ultra-Remainers who actively hates Britain and Britishness. I'm glad he's depressed.
    The tyson of journalists.
    He's right though, at least about the strain on the Union.
    IMO, Brexit strengthens the Union, because it raises the cost of leaving it.
    Hard Brexit makes Sindy, economically, almost impossible, on so many levels. Though the Scots might still be minded to risk it. Who knows.
    Change is in the air.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    If you love trivia, you really can't miss

    Allanholloway
    Devonshire was one of 2 UK PMs to die outside the UK - also Ramsay MacDonald who died on board a ship in South Atlantic in November 1937
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 2,662
    Corals have LibDems down to 8/1 in Witney.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,793

    Sean_F said:

    MaxPB said:

    SeanT said:

    Ian Dunt not a fan:

    The lunatics at the Tory conference applauded all of this. They cheered the Union, even as May announced the greatest strain she could possibly impose on it. They cheered when a speaker mentioned Gibraltar, even though it was now at risk like never before. They cheered dreams of British economic greatness, which are now in jeopardy precisely because of the policy they were jubilant about.

    http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/02/may-speech-makes-it-clear-we-re-leaving-the-single-market

    Dunt is a dipstick

    He tweeted this:

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/775259599846924288

    He's one of the ultra-Remainers who actively hates Britain and Britishness. I'm glad he's depressed.
    The tyson of journalists.
    He's right though, at least about the strain on the Union.
    IMO, Brexit strengthens the Union, because it raises the cost of leaving it.
    We're repealing the 'Great' out of Britain.
    On the contrary, we're putting the 'Great' back in.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 33,292
    Settling in for an evening of golf. Never thought I'd say that.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,693
    Miss Vance, agree on the 'union that matters' approach to bilateral trade, and the currency question still has no answer.

    Mr. Glenn, the Romans didn't need Brussels to be great, and neither do we.

    As an aside, Boris couldn't recall if Trajan or Hadrian had the Empire under its greatest size. It was Trajan, who briefly extended its easternmost border in a short-lived territory which Hadrian gave up.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    MaxPB said:

    SeanT said:

    Ian Dunt not a fan:

    The lunatics at the Tory conference applauded all of this. They cheered the Union, even as May announced the greatest strain she could possibly impose on it. They cheered when a speaker mentioned Gibraltar, even though it was now at risk like never before. They cheered dreams of British economic greatness, which are now in jeopardy precisely because of the policy they were jubilant about.

    http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/02/may-speech-makes-it-clear-we-re-leaving-the-single-market

    Dunt is a dipstick

    He tweeted this:

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/775259599846924288

    He's one of the ultra-Remainers who actively hates Britain and Britishness. I'm glad he's depressed.
    The tyson of journalists.
    He's right though, at least about the strain on the Union.
    IMO, Brexit strengthens the Union, because it raises the cost of leaving it.
    Hard Brexit makes Sindy, economically, almost impossible, on so many levels. Though the Scots might still be minded to risk it. Who knows.
    The 'we should protect 15% of our Trade by sacrificing 60% of it' line needs work....

    And the 'EU Fisheries Policy is Great' doesn't play too well in the North East.....
    Nor the South West. Earlier this year I was pleasantly surprised to find a fishing industry still in existence in Weymouth. Chatting to some of the locals they were all jolly keen at "getting our waters back in a couple of years".
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 46,159

    Corals have LibDems down to 8/1 in Witney.

    Interesting. If you think that might happen BF has it at 16, although not much money floating around.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,793
    MaxPB said:

    Settling in for an evening of golf. Never thought I'd say that.

    On the one weekend of the year I'd ever describe myself as European!
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    http://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/01/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-health/index.html

    Trump questions Hillarys loyalty to Bill. Think about that for a second.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,693
    F1: just a thought. If Rosberg and Hamilton finish the next five races and Hamilton wins four, Rosberg one, and every result is a 1-2, Rosberg takes the title.

    Not an impossible gap to close, but tricky unless Rosberg has a DNF.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,236

    Sean_F said:

    MaxPB said:

    SeanT said:

    Ian Dunt not a fan:

    The lunatics at the Tory conference applauded all of this. They cheered the Union, even as May announced the greatest strain she could possibly impose on it. They cheered when a speaker mentioned Gibraltar, even though it was now at risk like never before. They cheered dreams of British economic greatness, which are now in jeopardy precisely because of the policy they were jubilant about.

    http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/02/may-speech-makes-it-clear-we-re-leaving-the-single-market

    Dunt is a dipstick

    He tweeted this:

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/775259599846924288

    He's one of the ultra-Remainers who actively hates Britain and Britishness. I'm glad he's depressed.
    The tyson of journalists.
    He's right though, at least about the strain on the Union.
    IMO, Brexit strengthens the Union, because it raises the cost of leaving it.
    We're repealing the 'Great' out of Britain.
    Since you don't want the UK to exist as a political entity in the future, I don't see why that should concern you.
  • surbiton said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    One thing's for certain: Cameron and the liberal wing of the Tory party will be broken and humiliated. Everything they ever stood for has been annihilated by May's grovelling capitulation to the hard right. Let's face it, she might as well have produced a giant statue of Farage and invited us all to bow before it.

    Erm, May was a reformer before Cameron took over. I've got my one nation centrist party back from Osbornian interventions.....
    Absolutely. A great speech from Mrs May, and followed by another from David Davis.
    And both singing from the same hymn sheet.......
    Fitalass doe snot.
    Harsh..
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 33,292
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    MaxPB said:

    SeanT said:

    Ian Dunt not a fan:

    The lunatics at the Tory conference applauded all of this. They cheered the Union, even as May announced the greatest strain she could possibly impose on it. They cheered when a speaker mentioned Gibraltar, even though it was now at risk like never before. They cheered dreams of British economic greatness, which are now in jeopardy precisely because of the policy they were jubilant about.

    http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/02/may-speech-makes-it-clear-we-re-leaving-the-single-market

    Dunt is a dipstick

    He tweeted this:

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/775259599846924288

    He's one of the ultra-Remainers who actively hates Britain and Britishness. I'm glad he's depressed.
    The tyson of journalists.
    He's right though, at least about the strain on the Union.
    IMO, Brexit strengthens the Union, because it raises the cost of leaving it.
    Hard Brexit makes Sindy, economically, almost impossible, on so many levels. Though the Scots might still be minded to risk it. Who knows.
    Change is in the air.
    Yes, which is why I don't rule out Sindy. Scots might just think "fuck it", like the Brits did.

    Interestingly, May seemed to rule out a Sindyref2 before Brexit is finalised and delivered. So Sturgeon might have to wait til 2020 if she wants another go.

    Yes. At which point Scotland would have to apply to join the EU as a new entrant, not keeping any of the UK's existing opt outs as a successor nation or whatever that stupid idea was.

    Anyway, as I see it the appetite for Sindy is gone. Obviously anecdotal, but judging from a a Scottish cousin who campaigned for Indy and Remain now not convinced by Indy and a SLAB unionist/remain colleague who initially backed Indy after the vote going back to his default position once the shock wore off. I think there are enough enough unionist/remain voters who aren't moved by the EU and would back No in a second referendum. That's why Nicola isn't going to even bother trying to get one.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,793

    F1: just a thought. If Rosberg and Hamilton finish the next five races and Hamilton wins four, Rosberg one, and every result is a 1-2, Rosberg takes the title.

    Not an impossible gap to close, but tricky unless Rosberg has a DNF.

    Yes, Betfair has crossed over today. Nico now 1.65 and Lewis 2.5.
    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/#/motor-sport/event/27582432/market?marketId=1.121499283

    Lewis needs to win the last five races.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,693
    Mr. Sandpit, practically identical on Ladbrokes.

    There are other ways Hamilton can get the title. A Rosberg DNF is most obvious, but if the Red Bulls gets ahead of Rosberg it makes Hamilton's job substantially easier.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,614
    Sturgeon is a fan of the Dunt article encouraging her following to read it....
This discussion has been closed.