Perhaps it is the Sunday evening pre-ironing euphoria setting in but the last time I detected a mood like this was in in 1981. The oh, so clever, great and the good were so convinced Margaret Thatcher was going to to fall on her face. She was so obviously wrong, every one who was anyone agreed. She would clearly lose the next election and normal service would be resumed.
I don't think TM is talking to the likes of the denizens of this site, I am not convinced she has today been trying to to talk primarily to the people in the hall. Her message is, perhaps aimed much wider.
I could be completely wrong, I probably am completely wrong, but I think TM will go down as a great PM.
A lot of people are projecting what they wanted to hear onto what she said. We'll see.
off topic - did anybody read this Martin Wolf column on how weak, flawed and deeply third-rate the British economy really is, even without Brexit, despite all the "we are a great country and can achieve so much as a free trading nation" backslapping and self-congratulation? Personally, when I assess the median skill level and work ethic of UK citizens, I feel the next few years could be very, very tough...the last thing we need is all the clever Frogs and international money launderers/global elite packing up their bags and rotating to a different new tax haven...
Economic ills of the UK extend well beyond Brexit:
"The UK, then, has low unemployment. But it also has high inequality, mediocre real incomes, at least by the standards of its European peers, and poor external competitiveness. Above all, recent productivity growth has been truly awful... "The implications of a realistic view of the UK economy is that, even without the looming shock of Brexit, the economy suffers from big weaknesses relative to the European economies that many Brexiters despise... "The UK has to rectify longstanding supply-side failings. The list "If the UK is to thrive economically, it will not be enough for it to manage Brexit, hard though that will surely be. Its policymakers must also start from a realistic assessment of the UK’s mediocre performance. This is no world-beating economy. It is not even a Europe-beating economy, except on creating what are too often low-wage jobs."
Yes I read it, and he is correct. We fool ourselves ourselves it's not so because of the amazing, undeniable, world beating success of London over the past 20 years.
But the rest - not so much.
But isn't this, ironically, the very same argument used by hardcore Brexiteers? - membership has made UK industry and business lazy - able to rely on an endless flood of cheap migrants. So productivity is stagnant.
I've also heard Remainers (of which Wolf is one) use exactly the opposite argument: the UK has prospered mightily since we joined, we're the fasting growing big European economy, we cannot risk this by Leaving.
Which is it?
I do agree that London is our outstanding success story. Let's hope Brexit doesn't fuck it up. It is possible Brexit will make it better. Who the hell knows. Time to be alive, etc.
For sure. The argument was that GDP per head had grown by 98% since 1973, and that showed how good the EU had been for the UK. Now, it seems that was a bad performance.
In truth, the future is now in our own hands. We may prosper, or we may screw up, but that's up to us.
off topic - did anybody read this Martin Wolf column on how weak, flawed and deeply third-rate the British economy really is, even without Brexit, despite all the "we are a great country and can achieve so much as a free trading nation" backslapping and self-congratulation? Personally, when I assess the median skill level and work ethic of UK citizens, I feel the next few years could be very, very tough...the last thing we need is all the clever Frogs and international money launderers/global elite packing up their bags and rotating to a different new tax haven...
Economic ills of the UK extend well beyond Brexit:
"The UK, then, has low unemployment. But it also has high inequality, mediocre real incomes, at least by the standards of its European peers, and poor external competitiveness. Above all, recent productivity growth has been truly awful... "The implications of a realistic view of the UK economy is that, even without the looming shock of Brexit, the economy suffers from big weaknesses relative to the European economies that many Brexiters despise... "The UK has to rectify longstanding supply-side failings. The list "If the UK is to thrive economically, it will not be enough for it to manage Brexit, hard though that will surely be. Its policymakers must also start from a realistic assessment of the UK’s mediocre performance. This is no world-beating economy. It is not even a Europe-beating economy, except on creating what are too often low-wage jobs."
Yes I read it, and he is correct. We fool ourselves ourselves it's not so because of the amazing, undeniable, world beating success of London over the past 20 years.
But the rest - not so much.
But isn't this, ironically, the very same argument used by hardcore Brexiteers? - membership has made UK industry and business lazy - able to rely on an endless flood of cheap migrants. So productivity is stagnant.
I've also heard Remainers (of which Wolf is one) use exactly the opposite argument: the UK has prospered mightily since we joined, we're the fasting growing big European economy, we cannot risk this by Leaving.
Which is it?
I do agree that London is our outstanding success story. Let's hope Brexit doesn't fuck it up. It is possible Brexit will make it better. Who the hell knows. Time to be alive, etc.
For sure. The argument was that GDP per head had grown by 98% since 1973, and that showed how good the EU had been for the UK. Now, it seems that was a bad performance.
In truth, the future is now in our own hands. We may prosper, or we may screw up, but that's up to us.
off topic - did anybody read this Martin Wolf column on how weak, flawed and deeply third-rate the British economy really is, even without Brexit, despite all the "we are a great country and can achieve so much as a free trading nation" backslapping and self-congratulation? Personally, when I assess the median skill level and work ethic of UK citizens, I feel the next few years could be very, very tough...the last thing we need is all the clever Frogs and international money launderers/global elite packing up their bags and rotating to a different new tax haven...
Economic ills of the UK extend well beyond Brexit:
"The UK, then, has low unemployment. But it also has high inequality, mediocre real incomes, at least by the standards of its European peers, and poor external competitiveness. Above all, recent productivity growth has been truly awful... "The implications of a realistic view of the UK economy is that, even without the looming shock of Brexit, the economy suffers from big weaknesses relative to the European economies that many Brexiters despise... "The UK has to rectify longstanding supply-side failings. The list "If the UK is to thrive economically, it will not be enough for it to manage Brexit, hard though that will surely be. Its policymakers must also start from a realistic assessment of the UK’s mediocre performance. This is no world-beating economy. It is not even a Europe-beating economy, except on creating what are too often low-wage jobs."
Yes I read it, and he is correct. We fool ourselves ourselves it's not so because of the amazing, undeniable, world beating success of London over the past 20 years.
But the rest - not so much.
But isn't this, ironically, the very same argument used by hardcore Brexiteers? - membership has made UK industry and business lazy - able to rely on an endless flood of cheap migrants. So productivity is stagnant.
I've also heard Remainers (of which Wolf is one) use exactly the opposite argument: the UK has prospered mightily since we joined, we're the fasting growing big European economy, we cannot risk this by Leaving.
Which is it?
I do agree that London is our outstanding success story. Let's hope Brexit doesn't fuck it up. It is possible Brexit will make it better. Who the hell knows. Time to be alive, etc.
For sure. The argument was that GDP per head had grown by 98% since 1973, and that showed how good the EU had been for the UK. Now, it seems that was a bad performance.
In truth, the future is now in our own hands. We may prosper, or we may screw up, but that's up to us.
I think we have prospered these past few decades. Was that therefore down to the EU?
Clearlyher to flap. May is starting to look pliable and weak and wholly beneath the boot of Farage, UKIP and the Tory hard right.
The "hard right," eh...? In which case, where did all the stuff about leaving workers' rights alone (which we were told by Labour would be the first thing to be chucked on the bonfire in the event of a Leave vote) come from? And nor is she bending to the will of the Leave ultras on A50? A lot of them believe in the absolute right of Parliament to withdraw simply by passing legislation, and that our Lisbon Treaty obligations need not necessarily be met to begin with.
If May botches Brexit then the first neck on the chopping block won't be that of Boris Johnson or David Davis, it will be hers. It's overwhelmingly in her interest to get this right. It's also erroneous to think of the Prime Minister as being sat at her desk at No.10 with a pen and paper, making up a plan on her own: the Civil Service is very capable and will have been running hither and thither practically since the moment the result was announced, organising working groups and thinking through all the practicalities. If reports are to be believed, they are already on to the finer points: the second item on the front of the FT one day last week was all about which items in the European Commission's property portfolio, art collection and wine cellar the Government was preparing to demand.
There'll be some sort of mutually acceptable compromise with the rest of the EU, and the deficiencies therein can largely be compensated for by the repeal of some of the more burdensome EU regulations, and by targeted tax cuts. The fallout from the withdrawal process is likely to be anywhere from fairly negligible to moderately bad, in any event not a catastrophe. Remember, even the bottom of the range of the most pessimistic scenarios projected by the most pessimistic economists prior to the referendum (no agreement at all and withdrawal to WTO rules) suggested a potential loss of GDP of about 9.5% by 2030, relative to what would've been expected if we had done nothing.
This would equate to about two-thirds of one percent of lost growth per year, it is unlikely to get that bad, and insofar as I am aware none of these projections took any account of the positive impact of future trade deals which the UK might be able to make with other nations on its own account once out of the EU.
Theresa May has her party well under control. And I would suggest that, if Ukip is going to give anyone trouble going forward, it is most likely to be the Labour Party.
Thanks to Corbyn Labour, the only people May needs to worry about are right wing Tory MPs. I'd argue that's a serious problem as it totally skews the Brexit decision-making process.
Perhaps it is the Sunday evening pre-ironing euphoria setting in but the last time I detected a mood like this was in in 1981. The oh, so clever, great and the good were so convinced Margaret Thatcher was going to to fall on her face. She was so obviously wrong, every one who was anyone agreed. She would clearly lose the next election and normal service would be resumed.
I don't think TM is talking to the likes of the denizens of this site, I am not convinced she has today been trying to to talk primarily to the people in the hall. Her message is, perhaps aimed much wider.
I could be completely wrong, I probably am completely wrong, but I think TM will go down as a great PM.
I'm no Tory, far from it, but she has a cracking interview in today's Sunday Times, including jokes about cooking and Larry the Cat and his preferred seating, which is a very important area of national policy. She is perfecting the art of middle england 'modesty'. Frankly, reading the article it seems clear Labour are utterly f***** for a decade.
"British business was not thriving and on fire before we joined the EU. We have consistently failed to take advantage of the opportunities out there. Can't see Brexit changing that."
Well then we'll just muddle on... But at least it will be our muddle.
I'm quite moody tonight.
I go from Brextasy to near-Bremorse and back again, every few minutes. Hey, I'm Bripolar.
We will muddle on. But leaving the Single Market will make it harder.
Sorry to turn to personal anecdote to make a point, but I have worked often with different teams of UK workers and teams of European workers at similar salary levels. At times it did not even feel like a contest...It seems to me that in a fair contest, the UK workforce would get crucified if competing against against similar salaried teams of Poles, Indians, Chinese or French. Crucified off the map on any productivity yardstick. Such deep educational and skills issues...also the long-term demotivating impact of reliance on low wage tax credit subsidised mcjobs...
I get the idea that if immigrant labour is cut back, productivity might pick up as a result of greater investment, but I am not sure I buy into it. It feels too sudden. After years of a trashed education system and a decade buying off the indigenous work force via low wage low productivity subsidy tax credits while the heavy lifting for growth was left to an influx of highly qualified, highly motivated immigrants, you can't suddenly overnight do a u-turn and expect your by now virtually sclerotic, demotivated and deskilled labour force to become highly productive, effective enthusiastic hungry workers surely, can you? That sort of thing takes a generation to turn round I would imagine...
But isn't this, ironically, the very same argument used by hardcore Brexiteers? - membership has made UK industry and business lazy - able to rely on an endless flood of cheap migrants. So productivity is stagnant.
I've also heard Remainers (of which Wolf is one) use exactly the opposite argument: the UK has prospered mightily since we joined, we're the fasting growing big European economy, we cannot risk this by Leaving.
Which is it?
I do agree that London is our outstanding success story. Let's hope Brexit doesn't fuck it up. It is possible Brexit will make it better. Who the hell knows. Time to be alive, etc.
But the Brexiters are wrong. We have a systematic reliance on low skill work, quite separately from the EU. You can see that in the employment rates.
Import of relatively skilled human capital is in fact one of the great advantages of the EU. It's been allowing us to actually upskill.
That, and access to the single market are two of the key pillars of our economic model. And we've decided to yank them away.
It's not clear what the new model is.
And please don't say an FTA with New Zealand.
Yes, I get economics is not the only thing. But on that dimension, according to any law of economics - Brexit is gonna hurt.
off topic - did anybody read this M Economic ills of the UK extend well beyond Brexit:
"The UK, then, has low unemployment. But it also has high inequality, mediocre real incomes, at least by the standards of its European peers, and poor external competitiveness. Above all, recent productivity growth has been truly awful... "The implications of a realistic view of the UK economy is that, even without the looming shock of Brexit, the economy suffers from big weaknesses relative to the European economies that many Brexiters despise... "The UK has to rectify longstanding supply-side failings. The list "If the UK is to thrive economically, it will not be enough for it to manage Brexit, hard though that will surely be. Its policymakers must also start from a realistic assessment of the UK’s mediocre performance. This is no world-beating economy. It is not even a Europe-beating economy, except on creating what are too often low-wage jobs."
Yes I read it, and he is correct. We fool ourselves ourselves it's not so because of the amazing, undeniable, world beating success of London over the past 20 years.
But the rest - not so much.
But isn't this, ironically, the very same argument used by hardcore Brexiteers? - membership has made UK industry and business lazy - able to rely on an endless flood of cheap migrants. So productivity is stagnant.
I've also heard Remainers (of which Wolf is one) use exactly the opposite argument: the UK has prospered mightily since we joined, we're the fasting growing big European economy, we cannot risk this by Leaving.
Which is it?
I do agree that London is our outstanding success story. Let's hope Brexit doesn't fuck it up. It is possible Brexit will make it better. Who the hell knows. Time to be alive, etc.
For sure. The argument was that GDP per head had grown by 98% since 1973, and that showed how good the EU had been for the UK. Now, it seems that was a bad performance.
In truth, the future is now in our own hands. We may prosper, or we may screw up, but that's up to us.
I think we have prospered these past few decades. Was that therefore down to the EU?
British business was not thriving and on fire before we joined the EU. We have consistently failed to take advantage of the opportunities out there. Can't see Brexit changing that.
Well you are the modern business leader who is saying that he will offshore his business because arranging a conference in Barcelona is too much from a UK outside the EU but arranging a conference in Taiwan is OK. You also, if memory serves, have an office in Hong Kong, which is OK but having an office within the EU is somehow supposed to be bad.
"British business was not thriving and on fire before we joined the EU. We have consistently failed to take advantage of the opportunities out there. Can't see Brexit changing that."
Well then we'll just muddle on... But at least it will be our muddle.
I'm quite moody tonight.
I go from Brextasy to near-Bremorse and back again, every few minutes. Hey, I'm Bripolar.
We will muddle on. But leaving the Single Market will make it harder.
The other issue that hasn't really been discussed is our brand. Commentators try to analyse the potential economic effect in terms of hard economics - exchange rates, tariffs, etc. But the UK car industry is already reporting a reluctance to buy British cars in the wake of the Brexit vote. The country is seen differently now. We don't, of course, know whether this is a temporary thing, or whether the vote has brought about an ongoing shift in the way that our country is seen. If the latter then this could be a significant negative arising from the country's decision.
off topic - did anybody read this Martin Wolf column on how weak, flawed and deeply third-rate the British economy really is, even without Brexit, despite all the "we are a great country and can achieve so much as a free trading nation" backslapping and self-congratulation? Personally, when I assess the median skill level and work ethic of UK citizens, I feel the next few years could be very, very tough...the last thing we need is all the clever Frogs and international money launderers/global elite packing up their bags and rotating to a different new tax haven...
Economic ills of the UK extend well beyond Brexit:
"The UK, then, has low unemployment. But it also has high inequality, mediocre real incomes, at least by the standards of its European "If the UK is to thrive economically, it will not be enough for it to manage Brexit, hard though that will surely be. Its policymakers must also start from a realistic assessment of the UK’s mediocre performance. This is no world-beating economy. It is not even a Europe-beating economy, except on creating what are too often low-wage jobs."
Yes I read it, and he is correct. We fool ourselves ourselves it's not so because of the amazing, undeniable, world beating success of London over the past 20 years.
But the rest - not so much.
But isn't this, ironically, the very same argument used by hardcore Brexiteers? - membership has made UK industry and business lazy - able to rely on an endless flood of cheap migrants. So productivity is stagnant.
I've also heard Remainers (of which Wolf is one) use exactly the opposite argument: the UK has prospered mightily since we joined, we're the fasting growing big European economy, we cannot risk this by Leaving.
Which is it?
I do agree that London is our outstanding success story. Let's hope Brexit doesn't fuck it up. It is possible Brexit will make it better. Who the hell knows. Time to be alive, etc.
For sure. The argument was that GDP per head had grown by 98% since 1973, and that showed how good the EU had been for the UK. Now, it seems that was a bad performance.
In truth, the future is now in our own hands. We may prosper, or we may screw up, but that's up to us.
I think we have prospered these past few decades. Was that therefore down to the EU?
Well, we've prospered for the whole of the twentieth century, so I'd suggest mostly not, but the reduction to barriers to trade with other member states after 1973 would have helped. Other than that, I'd say political stability, low levels of corruption, the rule of law, and a business-friendly society have been the key drivers of prosperity.
Sorry to turn to personal anecdote to make a point, but I have worked often with different teams of UK workers and teams of European workers at similar salary levels. At times it did not even feel like a contest...It seems to me that in a fair contest, the UK workforce would get crucified if competing against against similar salaried teams of Poles, Indians, Chinese or French. Crucified off the map on any productivity yardstick. Such deep educational and skills issues...also the long-term demotivating impact of reliance on low wage tax credit subsidised mcjobs...
I get the idea that if immigrant labour is cut back, productivity might pick up as a result of greater investment, but I am not sure I buy into it. It feels too sudden. After years of a trashed education system and a decade buying off the indigenous work force via low wage low productivity subsidy tax credits while the heavy lifting for growth was left to an influx of highly qualified, highly motivated immigrants, you can't suddenly overnight do a u-turn and expect your by now virtually sclerotic, demotivated and deskilled labour force to become highly productive, effective enthusiastic hungry workers surely, can you? That sort of thing takes a generation to turn round I would imagine...
Bazzer, what's your industry?
In my experience, in a handful of sectors we are as good as anyone.
The problem is, it's only a handful and our long tail of talent is really sub- first world.
But again, nothing to do with the EU which has supplied us with talent and a market to sell into.
Sorry to turn to personal anecdote to make a point, but I have worked often with different teams of UK workers and teams of European workers at similar salary levels. At times it did not even feel like a contest...It seems to me that in a fair contest, the UK workforce would get crucified if competing against against similar salaried teams of Poles, Indians, Chinese or French. Crucified off the map on any productivity yardstick. Such deep educational and skills issues...also the long-term demotivating impact of reliance on low wage tax credit subsidised mcjobs...
I get the idea that if immigrant labour is cut back, productivity might pick up as a result of greater investment, but I am not sure I buy into it. It feels too sudden. After years of a trashed education system and a decade buying off the indigenous work force via low wage low productivity subsidy tax credits while the heavy lifting for growth was left to an influx of highly qualified, highly motivated immigrants, you can't suddenly overnight do a u-turn and expect your by now virtually sclerotic, demotivated and deskilled labour force to become highly productive, effective enthusiastic hungry workers surely, can you? That sort of thing takes a generation to turn round I would imagine...
Anecdotally, I've encountered many talented British workers.
Simon Rowntree I am at the Ryder Cup and Rory McIlroy is getting disgusting abuse from Americans who are calling him a "Fenian IRA scum". I am shocked.
But isn't this, ironically, the very same argument used by hardcore Brexiteers? - membership has made UK industry and business lazy - able to rely on an endless flood of cheap migrants. So productivity is stagnant.
I've also heard Remainers (of which Wolf is one) use exactly the opposite argument: the UK has prospered mightily since we joined, we're the fasting growing big European economy, we cannot risk this by Leaving.
Which is it?
I do agree that London is our outstanding success story. Let's hope Brexit doesn't fuck it up. It is possible Brexit will make it better. Who the hell knows. Time to be alive, etc.
But the Brexiters are wrong. We have a systematic reliance on low skill work, quite separately from the EU. You can see that in the employment rates.
Import of relatively skilled human capital is in fact one of the great advantages of the EU. It's been allowing us to actually upskill.
That, and access to the single market are two of the key pillars of our economic model. And we've decided to yank them away.
It's not clear what the new model is.
And please don't say an FTA with New Zealand.
Yes, I get economics is not the only thing. But on that dimension, according to any law of economics - Brexit is gonna hurt.
May made it clear that we will still need migration, and that it will take "some years" before she gets it down to tens of thousands. I doubt she will ever achieve it. But I can see 150,000 rather than 350,000.
And before we Leave roughly another million should arrive, anyhow.
The fact is we CANNOT go on with this model of unlimited mass immigration (on which Osborne predicated all his growth, btw). It's a demographic ponzi scheme
Moeover, given that the future of tech says the next problem will be TOO many people with no work, thanks to driverless cars etc, its insane to keep adding to those already here, without any thought at all.
Again, this is really a sovereignty argument.
I agree, it's democratically obnoxious to have unlimited mass immigration. Brexit at least gives us a chance to manage immigration on our own terms (agree it will be hard to reduce).
But let us not criticise the Martin Wolfs (or the forthcoming Smithson Jnr article!) for simply telling the truth about our economy.
Simon Rowntree I am at the Ryder Cup and Rory McIlroy is getting disgusting abuse from Americans who are calling him a "Fenian IRA scum". I am shocked.
If that's true, those spectators are beyond thick.
I think this sums up the remainers, here and elsewhere tonight.
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during “God save the King” than of stealing from a poor box."
Simon Rowntree I am at the Ryder Cup and Rory McIlroy is getting disgusting abuse from Americans who are calling him a "Fenian IRA scum". I am shocked.
I don't know how true that is, but watching on tv the crowds are behaving appallingly.
British business was not thriving and on fire before we joined the EU. We have consistently failed to take advantage of the opportunities out there. Can't see Brexit changing that.
Well you are the modern business leader who is saying that he will offshore his business because arranging a conference in Barcelona is too much from a UK outside the EU but arranging a conference in Taiwan is OK. You also, if memory serves, have an office in Hong Kong, which is OK but having an office within the EU is somehow supposed to be bad.
Not a business leader by any stretch of the imagination - a shareholder in and employee of a rapidly growing SME, 45% of which I helped to get off the ground.
Arranging a conference in Taiwan costs what it does and Brexit will make no difftence. Leaving the Single Market will increase the cost of doing business in the Single Market; so the logical thing to do is not leave the Single Market. Like many other companies we'll make sure we don't. In practice, what that will mean is that work currently done out of the UK will be done somewhere else in Europe instead. As a business it will make very little difference to us except we'll invest less in the UK, create fewer jobs here and generate less profit - thus paying less UK tax. Instead of serving a market of 500 million, our London office will serve one of 65 million.
I think this sums up the remainers, here and elsewhere tonight.
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during “God save the King” than of stealing from a poor box."
George Orwell.
More rubbish from you.
I'm a remainer, and it's because I want the very best for this country and my compatriots.
While I expect the LibDems to do well in Witney (high teens vote share), it would be an extraordinary accident for them to win.
I'm on with a tiny bet at 11 to 1. I won at 13 to 1 in Dunfermline, but I don't expect the LibDems to take Witney. From 4th and 6.8% is surely impossible. But why do you say 'accident', such a stupendous upset could occur by accident.
You are I presume aware that cars manufactured in Japan are subject to these crushing import tariffs, which is why you see so few of the Honda Jazz models on the road.
I think this sums up the remainers, here and elsewhere tonight.
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during “God save the King” than of stealing from a poor box."
George Orwell.
More rubbish from you.
I'm a remainer, and it's because I want the very best for this country and my compatriots.
Yes, perhaps the greatest leaver delusion is that to be pro-EU is to be an inveterate self-hating lefty.
Simon Rowntree I am at the Ryder Cup and Rory McIlroy is getting disgusting abuse from Americans who are calling him a "Fenian IRA scum". I am shocked.
That is unbelievable. I have never heard Americans use that kind of language. They have absolutely no idea about Northern Ireland beyond thinking very posh English people are enslaving leprechauns. Doesn't McIlroy identify as a Brit anyway?
British business was not thriving and on fire before we joined the EU. We have consistently failed to take advantage of the opportunities out there. Can't see Brexit changing that.
Well you are the modern business leader who is saying that he will offshore his business because arranging a conference in Barcelona is too much from a UK outside the EU but arranging a conference in Taiwan is OK. You also, if memory serves, have an office in Hong Kong, which is OK but having an office within the EU is somehow supposed to be bad.
Not a business leader by any stretch of the imagination - a shareholder in and employee of a rapidly growing SME, 45% of which I helped to get off the ground.
Arranging a conference in Taiwan costs what it does and Brexit will make no difftence. Leaving the Single Market will increase the cost of doing business in the Single Market; so the logical thing to do is not leave the Single Market. Like many other companies we'll make sure we don't. In practice, what that will mean is that work currently done out of the UK will be done somewhere else in Europe instead. As a business it will make very little difference to us except we'll invest less in the UK, create fewer jobs here and generate less profit - thus paying less UK tax. Instead of serving a market of 500 million, our London office will serve one of 65 million.
Or you will do what the finance industry mostly does. Research it, design it, build it, test it and wrap it in the UK before sending it to a small office in the EU somewhere to have a small ribbon placed on the top before delivering it to the end customer.
Simon Rowntree I am at the Ryder Cup and Rory McIlroy is getting disgusting abuse from Americans who are calling him a "Fenian IRA scum". I am shocked.
That is unbelievable. I have never heard Americans use that kind of language. They have absolutely no idea about Northern Ireland beyond thinking very posh English people are enslaving leprechauns. Doesn't McIlroy identify as a Brit anyway?
Golfing fans are perfectly behaved and decent...until Ryder Cup, then they go mental.
I think this sums up the remainers, here and elsewhere tonight.
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during “God save the King” than of stealing from a poor box."
George Orwell.
Totally agree. Brexit is the first win in decades. Let's hope for more.
"British business was not thriving and on fire before we joined the EU. We have consistently failed to take advantage of the opportunities out there. Can't see Brexit changing that."
Well then we'll just muddle on... But at least it will be our muddle.
I'm quite moody tonight.
I go from Brextasy to near-Bremorse and back again, every few minutes. Hey, I'm Bripolar.
We will muddle on. But leaving the Single Market will make it harder.
The other issue that hasn't really been discussed is our brand. Commentators try to analyse the potential economic effect in terms of hard economics - exchange rates, tariffs, etc. But the UK car industry is already reporting a reluctance to buy British cars in the wake of the Brexit vote. The country is seen differently now. We don't, of course, know whether this is a temporary thing, or whether the vote has brought about an ongoing shift in the way that our country is seen. If the latter then this could be a significant negative arising from the country's decision.
Well I think the reported reluctance to buy British cars is nonsense.
But you are into something. One of our assets in the UK is our perceived openess, tolerance and liberalism.
Youths flock to London from around the world to live lives away from home. And, overwhelmingly we profit from that.
Undoubtedly Brexit has knocked that perception a bit, whether true or not. And remember - a lot of how others perceive us comes from our own media narratives which spread far and wide.
Sorry to turn to personal anecdote to make a point, but I have worked often with different teams of UK workers and teams of European workers at similar salary levels. At times it did not even feel like a contest...It seems to me that in a fair contest, the UK workforce would get crucified if competing against against similar salaried teams of Poles, Indians, Chinese or French. Crucified off the map on any productivity yardstick. Such deep educational and skills issues...also the long-term demotivating impact of reliance on low wage tax credit subsidised mcjobs...
I get the idea that if immigrant labour is cut back, productivity might pick up as a result of greater investment, but I am not sure I buy into it. It feels too sudden. After years of a trashed education system and a decade buying off the indigenous work force via low wage low productivity subsidy tax credits while the heavy lifting for growth was left to an influx of highly qualified, highly motivated immigrants, you can't suddenly overnight do a u-turn and expect your by now virtually sclerotic, demotivated and deskilled labour force to become highly productive, effective enthusiastic hungry workers surely, can you? That sort of thing takes a generation to turn round I would imagine...
Bazzer, what's your industry?
In my experience, in a handful of sectors we are as good as anyone.
The problem is, it's only a handful and our long tail of talent is really sub- first world.
But again, nothing to do with the EU which has supplied us with talent and a market to sell into.
Again, all this stuff is about to be made utterly irrelevant by digital, driverless, AI, Augmented Reality VR, 3D printing, and robotics.
Almost every country will soon have a large and highly skilled base of workers: they will be robots. Zambia will be able to make cars as good as Germany. But probably cheaper. Computers in Mongolia will be able to diagnose you as well as a doctor in New York - or Harley Street.
I think this sums up the remainers, here and elsewhere tonight.
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during “God save the King” than of stealing from a poor box."
You are I presume aware that cars manufactured in Japan are subject to these crushing import tariffs, which is why you see so few of the Honda Jazz models on the road.
It has been all over the recent press. For example:
"British business was not thriving and on fire before we joined the EU. We have consistently failed to take advantage of the opportunities out there. Can't see Brexit changing that."
Well then we'll just muddle on... But at least it will be our muddle.
I'm quite moody tonight.
I go from Brextasy to near-Bremorse and back again, every few minutes. Hey, I'm Bripolar.
We will muddle on. But leaving the Single Market will make it harder.
The other issue that hasn't really been discussed is our brand. Commentators try to analyse the potential economic effect in terms of hard economics - exchange rates, tariffs, etc. But the UK car industry is already reporting a reluctance to buy British cars in the wake of the Brexit vote. The country is seen differently now. We don't, of course, know whether this is a temporary thing, or whether the vote has brought about an ongoing shift in the way that our country is seen. If the latter then this could be a significant negative arising from the country's decision.
The car industry report is utter, utter bullshit. How can they possibly know people in Belgium or Romania or China re deciding not to buy Land Rovers because we voted to Brexit? Do they speak to these people directly, interview their psychiatrists, have them secretly surveilled as they make anglophobic remarks over croissants?
How can someone as clearly smart as you believe this shite? It's pure anecdotage, spun from lies, from a car company with an agenda.
The only concrete data we have on attitudes to Britain is the number of people who want to come here and see our newly hate-filled land. Turns out July - post-vote - was a record month for visitors from the EU. The largest number EVER.
Clearly the fall in the £ was a major factor, but foreigners don't seem to be worried about the Brexiteering Fascists roaming the streets of London, either.
To be fair, it's common knowledge that you're more likely relaxing in a luxury hotel overseas....
"British business was not thriving and on fire before we joined the EU. We have consistently failed to take advantage of the opportunities out there. Can't see Brexit changing that."
Well then we'll just muddle on... But at least it will be our muddle.
I'm quite moody tonight.
I go from Brextasy to near-Bremorse and back again, every few minutes. Hey, I'm Bripolar.
We will muddle on. But leaving the Single Market will make it harder.
The other issue that hasn't really been discussed is our brand. Commentators try to analyse the potential economic effect in terms of hard economics - exchange rates, tariffs, etc. But the UK car industry is already reporting a reluctance to buy British cars in the wake of the Brexit vote. The country is seen differently now. We don't, of course, know whether this is a temporary thing, or whether the vote has brought about an ongoing shift in the way that our country is seen. If the latter then this could be a significant negative arising from the country's decision.
The car industry report is utter, utter bullshit. How can they possibly know people in Belgium or Romania or China re deciding not to buy Land Rovers because we voted to Brexit? Do they speak to these people directly, interview their psychiatrists, have them secretly surveilled as they make anglophobic remarks over croissants?
How can someone as clearly smart as you believe this shite? It's pure anecdotage, spun from lies, from a car company with an agenda.
The only concrete data we have on attitudes to Britain is the number of people who want to come here and see our newly hate-filled land. Turns out July - post-vote - was a record month for visitors from the EU. The largest number EVER.
Clearly the fall in the £ was a major factor, but foreigners don't seem to be worried about the Brexiteering Fascists roaming the streets of London, either.
Because customers talk to sales reps and sales reps report back to managers? Like the boss said.
Your increasingly hysterical denial of anything that challenges the perfection of Brexit is becoming laughable.
And of the three of us, you, me, and the boss of jaguar landrover, I am guessing that he knows the most about it.
British business was not thriving and on fire before we joined the EU. We have consistently failed to take advantage of the opportunities out there. Can't see Brexit changing that.
Well you are the modern business leader who is saying that he will offshore his business because arranging a conference in Barcelona is too much from a UK outside the EU but arranging a conference in Taiwan is OK. You also, if memory serves, have an office in Hong Kong, which is OK but having an office within the EU is somehow supposed to be bad.
Not a business leader by any stretch of the imagination - a shareholder in and employee of a rapidly growing SME, 45% of which I helped to get off the ground.
Arranging a conference in Taiwan costs what it does and Brexit will make no difftence. Leaving the Single Market will increase the cost of doing business in the Single Market; so the logical thing to do is not leave the Single Market. Like many other companies we'll make sure we don't. In practice, what that will mean is that work currently done out of the UK will be done somewhere else in Europe instead. As a business it will make very little difference to us except we'll invest less in the UK, create fewer jobs here and generate less profit - thus paying less UK tax. Instead of serving a market of 500 million, our London office will serve one of 65 million.
I dare say we will stand your reduced investment. You know your business best, but I would bet a pound to pinch of sh*t that the additional costs of setting up an offshore subsidiary, employing local staff, training, getting local staff to conform with corporate culture, coming to grips with local rules, tax etc, to say nothing of senior management time and energy, will not actually pay for itself for years if ever.
Sorry to turn to personal anecdote to make a point, but I have worked often with different teams of UK workers and teams of European workers at similar salary levels. At times it did not even feel like a contest...It seems to me that in a fair contest, the UK workforce would get crucified if competing against against similar salaried teams of Poles, Indians, Chinese or French. Crucified off the map on any productivity yardstick. Such deep educational and skills issues...also the long-term demotivating impact of reliance on low wage tax credit subsidised mcjobs...
I get the idea that if immigrant labour is cut back, productivity might pick up as a result of greater investment, but I am not sure I buy into it. It feels too sudden. After years of a trashed education system and a decade buying off the indigenous work force via low wage low productivity subsidy tax credits while the heavy lifting for growth was left to an influx of highly qualified, highly motivated immigrants, you can't suddenly overnight do a u-turn and expect your by now virtually sclerotic, demotivated and deskilled labour force to become highly productive, effective enthusiastic hungry workers surely, can you? That sort of thing takes a generation to turn round I would imagine...
Bazzer, what's your industry?
In my experience, in a handful of sectors we are as good as anyone.
The problem is, it's only a handful and our long tail of talent is really sub- first world.
But again, nothing to do with the EU which has supplied us with talent and a market to sell into.
Again, all this stuff is about to be made utterly irrelevant by digital, driverless, AI, Augmented Reality VR, 3D printing, and robotics.
Almost every country will soon have a large and highly skilled base of workers: they will be robots. Zambia will be able to make cars as good as Germany. But probably cheaper. Computers in Mongolia will be able to diagnose you as well as a doctor in New York - or Harley Street.
Reset.
Novelists also out of business.
I do wonder how high up the food chain this automation shit can go. I see no reason why, ultimately, a computer can't write a thriller. Happily it will take a bit longer to affect my biz - 30 years? - than it will take to put every taxi driver, solicitor, interpreter, pilot, office clerk etc etc etc, out of a job.
Suspect that you'll be sooner than you think. Political commentators also for an early bath. Have often thought about creating an outrage bot for PB.
"British business was not thriving and on fire before we joined the EU. We have consistently failed to take advantage of the opportunities out there. Can't see Brexit changing that."
Well then we'll just muddle on... But at least it will be our muddle.
I'm quite moody tonight.
I go from Brextasy to near-Bremorse and back again, every few minutes. Hey, I'm Bripolar.
We will muddle on. But leaving the Single Market will make it harder.
The other issue that hasn't really been discussed is our brand. Commentators try to analyse the potential economic effect in terms of hard economics - exchange rates, tariffs, etc. But the UK car industry is already reporting a reluctance to buy British cars in the wake of the Brexit vote. The country is seen differently now. We don't, of course, know whether this is a temporary thing, or whether the vote has brought about an ongoing shift in the way that our country is seen. If the latter then this could be a significant negative arising from the country's decision.
The car industry report is utter, utter bullshit. How can they possibly know people in Belgium or Romania or China re deciding not to buy Land Rovers because we voted to Brexit? Do they speak to these people directly, interview their psychiatrists, have them secretly surveilled as they make anglophobic remarks over croissants?
How can someone as clearly smart as you believe this shite? It's pure anecdotage, spun from lies, from a car company with an agenda.
The only concrete data we have on attitudes to Britain is the number of people who want to come here and see our newly hate-filled land. Turns out July - post-vote - was a record month for visitors from the EU. The largest number EVER.
Clearly the fall in the £ was a major factor, but foreigners don't seem to be worried about the Brexiteering Fascists roaming the streets of London, either.
Because customers talk to sales reps and sales reps report back to managers? Like the boss said.
Your increasingly hysterical denial of anything that challenges the perfection of Brexit is becoming laughable.
And of the three of us, you, me, and the boss of jaguar landrover, I am guessing that he knows the most about it.
One can safely predict that the number of people who will stop buying British, out of opposition to Brexit, is very small.
Sorry to turn to personal anecdote to make a point, but I have worked often with different teams of UK workers and teams of European workers at similar salary levels. At times it did not even feel like a contest...It seems to me that in a fair contest, the UK workforce would get crucified if competing against against similar salaried teams of Poles, Indians, Chinese or French. Crucified off the map on any productivity yardstick. Such deep educational and skills issues...also the long-term demotivating impact of reliance on low wage tax credit subsidised mcjobs...
I get the idea that if immigrant labour is cut back, productivity might pick up as a result of greater investment, but I am not sure I buy into it. It feels too sudden. After years of a trashed education system and a decade buying off the indigenous work force via low wage low productivity subsidy tax credits while the heavy lifting for growth was left to an influx of highly qualified, highly motivated immigrants, you can't suddenly overnight do a u-turn and expect your by now virtually sclerotic, demotivated and deskilled labour force to become highly productive, effective enthusiastic hungry workers surely, can you? That sort of thing takes a generation to turn round I would imagine...
Bazzer, what's your industry?
In my experience, in a handful of sectors we are as good as anyone.
The problem is, it's only a handful and our long tail of talent is really sub- first world.
But again, nothing to do with the EU which has supplied us with talent and a market to sell into.
Again, all this stuff is about to be made utterly irrelevant by digital, driverless, AI, Augmented Reality VR, 3D printing, and robotics.
Almost every country will soon have a large and highly skilled base of workers: they will be robots. Zambia will be able to make cars as good as Germany. But probably cheaper. Computers in Mongolia will be able to diagnose you as well as a doctor in New York - or Harley Street.
Reset.
Novelists also out of business.
I do wonder how high up the food chain this automation shit can go. I see no reason why, ultimately, a computer can't write a thriller. Happily it will take a bit longer to affect my biz - 30 years? - than it will take to put every taxi driver, solicitor, interpreter, pilot, office clerk etc etc etc, out of a job.
Suspect that you'll be sooner than you think. Political commentators also for an early bath. Have often thought about creating an outrage bot for PB.
Computers reading, and enjoying a thriller is where we have to worry.
Sorry to turn to personal anecdote to make a point, but I have worked often with different teams of UK workers and teams of European workers at similar salary levels. At times it did not even feel like a contest...It seems to me that in a fair contest, the UK workforce would get crucified if competing against against similar salaried teams of Poles, Indians, Chinese or French. Crucified off the map on any productivity yardstick. Such deep educational and skills issues...also the long-term demotivating impact of reliance on low wage tax credit subsidised mcjobs...
I get the idea that if immigrant labour is cut back, productivity might pick up as a result of greater investment, but I am not sure I buy into it. It feels too sudden. After years of a trashed education system and a decade buying off the indigenous work force via low wage low productivity subsidy tax credits while the heavy lifting for growth was left to an influx of highly qualified, highly motivated immigrants, you can't suddenly overnight do a u-turn and expect your by now virtually sclerotic, demotivated and deskilled labour force to become highly productive, effective enthusiastic hungry workers surely, can you? That sort of thing takes a generation to turn round I would imagine...
Bazzer, what's your industry?
In my experience, in a handful of sectors we are as good as anyone.
The problem is, it's only a handful and our long tail of talent is really sub- first world.
But again, nothing to do with the EU which has supplied us with talent and a market to sell into.
Again, all this stuff is about to be made utterly irrelevant by digital, driverless, AI, Augmented Reality VR, 3D printing, and robotics.
Almost every country will soon have a large and highly skilled base of workers: they will be robots. Zambia will be able to make cars as good as Germany. But probably cheaper. Computers in Mongolia will be able to diagnose you as well as a doctor in New York - or Harley Street.
Reset.
Novelists also out of business.
I do wonder how high up the food chain this automation shit can go. I see no reason why, ultimately, a computer can't write a thriller. Happily it will take a bit longer to affect my biz - 30 years? - than it will take to put every taxi driver, solicitor, interpreter, pilot, office clerk etc etc etc, out of a job.
Suspect that you'll be sooner than you think. Political commentators also for an early bath. Have often thought about creating an outrage bot for PB.
I think you're too late. Paul from Bedfordshire is clearly an algorithm which has been left alone with a room full of Daily Mails circa 1953.
Sorry to turn to personal anecdote to make a point, but I have worked often with different teams of UK workers and teams of European workers at similar salary levels. At times it did not even feel like a contest...It seems to me that in a fair contest, the UK workforce would get crucified if competing against against similar salaried teams of Poles, Indians, Chinese or French. Crucified off the map on any productivity yardstick. Such deep educational and skills issues...also the long-term demotivating impact of reliance on low wage tax credit subsidised mcjobs...
I get the idea that if immigrant labour is cut back, productivity might pick up as a result of greater investment, but I am not sure I buy into it. It feels too sudden. After years of a trashed education system and a decade buying off the indigenous work force via low wage low productivity subsidy tax credits while the heavy lifting for growth was left to an influx of highly qualified, highly motivated immigrants, you can't suddenly overnight do a u-turn and expect your by now virtually sclerotic, demotivated and deskilled labour force to become highly productive, effective enthusiastic hungry workers surely, can you? That sort of thing takes a generation to turn round I would imagine...
Bazzer, what's your industry?
In my experience, in a handful of sectors we are as good as anyone.
The problem is, it's only a handful and our long tail of talent is really sub- first world.
But again, nothing to do with the EU which has supplied us with talent and a market to sell into.
Again, all this stuff is about to be made utterly irrelevant by digital, driverless, AI, Augmented Reality VR, 3D printing, and robotics.
Almost every country will soon have a large and highly skilled base of workers: they will be robots. Zambia will be able to make cars as good as Germany. But probably cheaper. Computers in Mongolia will be able to diagnose you as well as a doctor in New York - or Harley Street.
Reset.
Novelists also out of business.
I do wonder how high up the food chain this automation shit can go. I see no reason why, ultimately, a computer can't write a thriller. Happily it will take a bit longer to affect my biz - 30 years? - than it will take to put every taxi driver, solicitor, interpreter, pilot, office clerk etc etc etc, out of a job.
Suspect that you'll be sooner than you think. Political commentators also for an early bath. Have often thought about creating an outrage bot for PB.
Sorry to turn to personal anecdote to make a point, but I have worked often with different teams of UK workers and teams of European workers at similar salary levels. At times it did not even feel like a contest...It seems to me that in a fair contest, the UK workforce would get crucified if competing against against similar salaried teams of Poles, Indians, Chinese or French. Crucified off the map on any productivity yardstick. Such deep educational and skills issues...also the long-term demotivating impact of reliance on low wage tax credit subsidised mcjobs...
I get the idea that if immigrant labour is cut back, productivity might pick up as a result of greater investment, but I am not sure I buy into it. It feels too sudden. After years of a trashed education system and a decade buying off the indigenous work force via low wage low productivity subsidy tax credits while the heavy lifting for growth was left to an influx of highly qualified, highly motivated immigrants, you can't suddenly overnight do a u-turn and expect your by now virtually sclerotic, demotivated and deskilled labour force to become highly productive, effective enthusiastic hungry workers surely, can you? That sort of thing takes a generation to turn round I would imagine...
Bazzer, what's your industry?
In my experience, in a handful of sectors we are as good as anyone.
The problem is, it's only a handful and our long tail of talent is really sub- first world.
But again, nothing to do with the EU which has supplied us with talent and a market to sell into.
Again, all this stuff is about to be made utterly irrelevant by digital, driverless, AI, Augmented Reality VR, 3D printing, and robotics.
Almost every country will soon have a large and highly skilled base of workers: they will be robots. Zambia will be able to make cars as good as Germany. But probably cheaper. Computers in Mongolia will be able to diagnose you as well as a doctor in New York - or Harley Street.
Reset.
Maybe. But betting on the Singularity still isn't a viable economic plan, in my book.
I think this sums up the remainers, here and elsewhere tonight.
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during “God save the King” than of stealing from a poor box."
"British business was not thriving and on fire before we joined the EU. We have consistently failed to take advantage of the opportunities out there. Can't see Brexit changing that."
Well then we'll just muddle on... But at least it will be our muddle.
I'm quite moody tonight.
I go from Brextasy to near-Bremorse and back again, every few minutes. Hey, I'm Bripolar.
We will muddle on. But leaving the Single Market will make it harder.
The other issue that hasn't really been discussed is our brand. Commentators .
The car industry report is utter, utter bullshit. How can they possibly know people in Belgium or Romania or China re deciding not to buy Land Rovers because we voted to Brexit? Do they speak to these people directly, interview their psychiatrists, have them secretly surveilled as they make anglophobic remarks over croissants?
How can someone as clearly smart as you believe this shite? It's pure anecdotage, spun from lies, from a car company with an agenda.
The only concrete data we have on attitudes to Britain is the number of people who want to come here and see our newly hate-filled land. Turns out July - post-vote - was a record month for visitors from the EU. The largest number EVER.
Clearly the fall in the £ was a major factor, but foreigners don't seem to be worried about the Brexiteering Fascists roaming the streets of London, either.
Because customers talk to sales reps and sales reps report back to managers? Like the boss said.
Your increasingly hysterical denial of anything that challenges the perfection of Brexit is becoming laughable.
And of the three of us, you, me, and the boss of jaguar landrover, I am guessing that he knows the most about it.
One can safely predict that the number of people who will stop buying British, out of opposition to Brexit, is very small.
It's more about contaminating the brand, I suppose. Concerns about servicing, resale value and parts post Brexit too. Or possibly just that the buyers are finding better value elsewhere.
It is to be expected that UK -rEU trade will drop post Brexit surely? It always does when a customs zone breaks up..
We will muddle on. But leaving the Single Market will make it harder.
The other issue that hasn't really been discussed is our brand. Commentators try to analyse the potential economic effect in terms of hard economics - exchange rates, tariffs, etc. But the UK car industry is already reporting a reluctance to buy British cars in the wake of the Brexit vote. The country is seen differently now. We don't, of course, know whether this is a temporary thing, or whether the vote has brought about an ongoing shift in the way that our country is seen. If the latter then this could be a significant negative arising from the country's decision.
The car industry report is utter, utter bullshit. How can they possibly know people in Belgium or Romania or China re deciding not to buy Land Rovers because we voted to Brexit? Do they speak to these people directly, interview their psychiatrists, have them secretly surveilled as they make anglophobic remarks over croissants?
How can someone as clearly smart as you believe this shite? It's pure anecdotage, spun from lies, from a car company with an agenda.
The only concrete data we have on attitudes to Britain is the number of people who want to come here and see our newly hate-filled land. Turns out July - post-vote - was a record month for visitors from the EU. The largest number EVER.
Clearly the fall in the £ was a major factor, but foreigners don't seem to be worried about the Brexiteering Fascists roaming the streets of London, either.
Because customers talk to sales reps and sales reps report back to managers? Like the boss said.
Your increasingly hysterical denial of anything that challenges the perfection of Brexit is becoming laughable.
And of the three of us, you, me, and the boss of jaguar landrover, I am guessing that he knows the most about it.
One can safely predict that the number of people who will stop buying British, out of opposition to Brexit, is very small.
Indeed. Thinking of it like that is a bit simplistic. It is more that the image of Britain overseas is wrapped up with a product like Jaguar, in the same way that our view of Alfa Romeo and BMW imports something from our image of their parent countries. So the question is whether the Brexit vote has changed how people abroad see us (which a lot of anecdotal evidence suggests it may well) and whether this will be permanent (rather less likely, depending to a great extent on how the exit goes).
I think this sums up the remainers, here and elsewhere tonight.
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during “God save the King” than of stealing from a poor box."
British business was not thriving and on fire before we joined the EU. We have consistently failed to take advantage of the opportunities out there. Can't see Brexit changing that.
Well you are the modern business leader who is saying that he will offshore his business because arranging a conference in Barcelona is too much from a UK outside the EU but arranging a conference in Taiwan is OK. You also, if memory serves, have an office in Hong Kong, which is OK but having an office within the EU is somehow supposed to be bad.
Not a business leader by any stretch of the imagination - a shareholder in and employee of a rapidly growing SME, 45% of which I helped to get off the ground.
Arranging a conference in Taiwan costs what it does and Brexit will make no difftence. Leaving the Single Market will increase the cost of doing business in the Single Market; so the logical thing to do is not leave the Single Market. Like many other companies we'll make sure we don't. In practice, what that will mean is that work currently done out of the UK will be done somewhere else in Europe instead. As a business it will make very little difference to us except we'll invest less in the UK, create fewer jobs here and generate less profit - thus paying less UK tax. Instead of serving a market of 500 million, our London office will serve one of 65 million.
I dare say we will stand your reduced investment. You know your business best, but I would bet a pound to pinch of sh*t that the additional costs of setting up an offshore subsidiary, employing local staff, training, getting local staff to conform with corporate culture, coming to grips with local rules, tax etc, to say nothing of senior management time and energy, will not actually pay for itself for years if ever.
It's the cumulative reduction that'll hurt. We have experience of opening offices elsewhere, as do many, many others. But maybe we'll be in the minority and most will choose to take the hit. We'll have to see.
Sorry to turn to personal anecdote to make a point, but I have worked often with different teams of UK workers and teams of European workers at similar salary levels. At times it did noctive enthusiastic hungry workers surely, can you? That sort of thing takes a generation to turn round I would imagine...
Bazzer, what's your industry?
In my experience, in a handful of sectors we are as good as anyone.
The problem is, it's only a handful and our long tail of talent is really sub- first world.
But again, nothing to do with the EU which has supplied us with talent and a market to sell into.
Agai
Reset.
Novelists also out of business.
I do wonder how high up the food chain this automation shit can go. I see no reason why, ultimately, a computer can't write a thriller. Happily it will take a bit longer to affect my biz - 30 years? - than it will take to put every taxi driver, solicitor, interpreter, pilot, office clerk etc etc etc, out of a job.
Suspect that you'll be sooner than you think. Political commentators also for an early bath. Have often thought about creating an outrage bot for PB.
Maybe.
But they'll never be able to automate my other job, travel journalism. Remember I have to literally sit in a first class air cabin drinking champagne before landing in a sun drenched paradise for a languid week of sensuous massage from Tahitian girls. Ain't no robot can do all that. Too complex.
Why read about it, when you can do it yourself without leaving the comfort of your front room?
I think this sums up the remainers, here and elsewhere tonight.
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during “God save the King” than of stealing from a poor box."
You are I presume aware that cars manufactured in Japan are subject to these crushing import tariffs, which is why you see so few of the Honda Jazz models on the road.
It has been all over the recent press. For example:
Oh, come on, Mr. B2, a press release talked up, is not evidence. Especially from JLR, which had already assured us they were moving production to Eastern Europe. You take notice pf that but ignore Honda's announcements?
You are I presume aware that cars manufactured in Japan are subject to these crushing import tariffs, which is why you see so few of the Honda Jazz models on the road.
It has been all over the recent press. For example:
It's just a quote. He provides no evidence. It's clearly total bollocks. If anything he is surely selling more cars as he's got a weak pound which has reduced his retail prices by 10% in Europe.
My guess is that he's heard one anecdote from one showroom and - because he wants to make a point to HMG - he's turned into a fact. Look at what he ACTUALLY says:
"He added he was informed about this by the carmaker's European sales team.
"They have the very first customers in their showrooms [who] clearly highlight that they don't want to buy British products anymore," Speth said at the Paris Motor Show""
It's one couple in Antwerp who murmured something about Boris Johnson, and a failed salesman in Lyons who thought he'd blame Brexit.
And thousands more customers in the USA, Middle East and China, who just saw his products get 10% cheaper than the German competition!
I have my grave doubts about the appropriateness of the last referendum - which disenfranchised a ton of Scots blamelessly living outside of Scotland - let alone another one.
The question was for the people of Scotland not ethnic Scots. It's kind of the whole difference between civic and blood & soil nationalism.
What garbage. Imagine if you went to work in another country, and then woke up one morning and your country was "gone".
What a turnip, you ar enot dealing with a full deck
I have my grave doubts about the appropriateness of the last referendum - which disenfranchised a ton of Scots blamelessly living outside of Scotland - let alone another one.
The question was for the people of Scotland not ethnic Scots. It's kind of the whole difference between civic and blood & soil nationalism.
What garbage. Imagine if you went to work in another country, and then woke up one morning and your country was "gone".
What a turnip, you ar enot dealing with a full deck
The situation I describe is exactly that facing my Scottish colleagues at my London based office.
I dramatise to make the point, but it doesn't quite seem fair, does it?
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In truth, the future is now in our own hands. We may prosper, or we may screw up, but that's up to us.
Fox
Fox News Poll: Among independent voters, @realDonaldTrump leads @HillaryClinton 41% to 29%. https://t.co/XT9795jreC
I get the idea that if immigrant labour is cut back, productivity might pick up as a result of greater investment, but I am not sure I buy into it. It feels too sudden. After years of a trashed education system and a decade buying off the indigenous work force via low wage low productivity subsidy tax credits while the heavy lifting for growth was left to an influx of highly qualified, highly motivated immigrants, you can't suddenly overnight do a u-turn and expect your by now virtually sclerotic, demotivated and deskilled labour force to become highly productive, effective enthusiastic hungry workers surely, can you? That sort of thing takes a generation to turn round I would imagine...
Phnaaarr
We have a systematic reliance on low skill work, quite separately from the EU. You can see that in the employment rates.
Import of relatively skilled human capital is in fact one of the great advantages of the EU. It's been allowing us to actually upskill.
That, and access to the single market are two of the key pillars of our economic model. And we've decided to yank them away.
It's not clear what the new model is.
And please don't say an FTA with New Zealand.
Yes, I get economics is not the only thing.
But on that dimension, according to any law of economics - Brexit is gonna hurt.
What a time to be alive.
In my experience, in a handful of sectors we are as good as anyone.
The problem is, it's only a handful and our long tail of talent is really sub- first world.
But again, nothing to do with the EU which has supplied us with talent and a market to sell into.
I am at the Ryder Cup and Rory McIlroy is getting disgusting abuse from Americans who are calling him a "Fenian IRA scum". I am shocked.
I agree, it's democratically obnoxious to have unlimited mass immigration. Brexit at least gives us a chance to manage immigration on our own terms (agree it will be hard to reduce).
But let us not criticise the Martin Wolfs (or the forthcoming Smithson Jnr article!) for simply telling the truth about our economy.
"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during “God save the King” than of stealing from a poor box."
George Orwell.
Arranging a conference in Taiwan costs what it does and Brexit will make no difftence. Leaving the Single Market will increase the cost of doing business in the Single Market; so the logical thing to do is not leave the Single Market. Like many other companies we'll make sure we don't. In practice, what that will mean is that work currently done out of the UK will be done somewhere else in Europe instead. As a business it will make very little difference to us except we'll invest less in the UK, create fewer jobs here and generate less profit - thus paying less UK tax. Instead of serving a market of 500 million, our London office will serve one of 65 million.
I'm a remainer, and it's because I want the very best for this country and my compatriots.
I won at 13 to 1 in Dunfermline, but I don't expect the LibDems to take Witney. From 4th and 6.8% is surely impossible. But why do you say 'accident', such a stupendous upset could occur by accident.
" reporting a reluctance to buy British cars"
Source please.
You are I presume aware that cars manufactured in Japan are subject to these crushing import tariffs, which is why you see so few of the Honda Jazz models on the road.
But you are into something. One of our assets in the UK is our perceived openess, tolerance and liberalism.
Youths flock to London from around the world to live lives away from home. And, overwhelmingly we profit from that.
Undoubtedly Brexit has knocked that perception a bit, whether true or not. And remember - a lot of how others perceive us comes from our own media narratives which spread far and wide.
It's a double edged sword, soft power.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/jaguar-land-rover-boss-says-060652076.html
History Map of France. https://t.co/knkuf6VOvF
Your increasingly hysterical denial of anything that challenges the perfection of Brexit is becoming laughable.
And of the three of us, you, me, and the boss of jaguar landrover, I am guessing that he knows the most about it.
Paul from Bedfordshire is clearly an algorithm which has been left alone with a room full of Daily Mails circa 1953.
It is to be expected that UK -rEU trade will drop post Brexit surely? It always does when a customs zone breaks up..
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Hillary Clinton strategist Bob Beckel called for WikiLeaks editor Julian Assange to be assassinated. #DNCLeak https://t.co/9L2ixl24Er
"The Great Repeal Bill" first proposed by Hannan & Carswell in 2008 in "The Plan". Now government policy. Congratulations.
'This is conspiratorial rubbish' exclaimed Mr Munnings checking the letraset on the print run of @TheCanarySays https://t.co/J3N0pQICm5
I dramatise to make the point, but it doesn't quite seem fair, does it?