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Indeed and they would probably not be alive to the irony (Boris perhaps might be) of the eurosceptic wing in the Party going forward to lose the peace, having won the war.JonathanD said:
None of our SoS seem that internationalist in outlook even if they were competent enough to negotiate all that. Even if they were, with Tory MPs sending out tweets about the British Empire and how being in the Single Market means you have to be in the EU, there wouldn't be enough MP support for it.TOPPING said:
It is relying on the fact that the UK is large enough to carve out a bespoke deal with all the benefits of, indeed membership somehow, of the single market, yet with a control on immigration.JonathanD said:
European Single market membership plus participation in its rule making alongside better trade deals with USA, Canada, India, Japan, and China and increased skilled migration would be the ideal but I don't think there is enough support in the Tory party for it and certainly its not what the people of Sunderland thought they were voting for.MaxPB said:
I'm still in the make the single market work camp and would favour staying in the EEA via EFTA. I don't think our external trade position is anywhere near strong enough to go it alone, at least not for the next 10 years.rottenborough said:
This is all rubbish. The real impact on UK economy will come when we actually exit the single market. At that point the problems of trying to trade with the EU bloc without being in the SM will become apparent.MaxPB said:
July data vs August data.Pulpstar said:The economic news seems poor today, but I swear only a few days ago it was 'very positive' ?
Do things change that quickly, I suspect not.
Perhaps we're doing a 6.5/10 'OK' and neither spectacularly badly or well
These guys think that's possible:
bruegel.org/2016/08/europe-after-brexit-a-proposal-for-a-continental-partnership/
Are any of our current relevant SoSs up to the task of achieving it? Bigger ask atm, IMO.0 -
Plans? Not yet presently in place and for now 35 MPs is a big hurdle. Of course if the hard left gain permanent hold of Labour it will split in two and Umunna will join a new party with the LDs and maybe a few Remain backing Tories.rottenborough said:
Except there are plans to reduce the needed nominations to a handful (can't recall the precise % - 5?). So that even in dire situation the hard-left will always have a candidate.HYUFD said:
Indeed, once Corbyn is heavily defeated if he resigns no leftwinger will get near being nominated by MPs. Of course Corbyn could stay leader for life but then Labour will be in eternal opposition anywayJobabob said:
Unless there are mass deselections (highly unlikely) and a Corbynista purge of the moderate rump of the party, Lewis won't get the nominations. The PLP won't make the mistake of nominating a far leftie again.Pulpstar said:
Why does it matter what "the country" thinks as to who should be next Labour leader ?HYUFD said:
Clive Lewis? Again, far too leftwing for the country, Chuka is more centrist, slicker and more articulatePulpstar said:
'The country' is almost completely irrelevant.0 -
Umunna: An ego on waxed legs? Mr Dancer, you appear awfully familiar with this gentleman.0
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Mr. HYUFD, no. Not a Kipper either.
Floating voter's the term you're after. Or Morris Ballsoktonos - Morris the Balls Slayer.
Mr. Rentool, indeed.0 -
Had some excellent Argentine champagne type wine the other day. From Moet’s Argentian vineyard.HurstLlama said:
I never knew you were an Al Murray fan Mr. Flashman(deceased). If Mr. P is a red wine chap then possibly his bet for value is to go for the Chilean stuff. If he can cope with white or rose then the fall in the value of the pound make some of the English wines even more attractive. Ridgeview, Nyetimber (if you must) or Bolney estate are a little expensive for everyday drinking but become less so and much better value as the Frog stuff becomes even more over-priced.TGOHF said:
Drink beautiful British craft beer Scott - those fruit based drinks are for the lovely ladies.Scott_P said:@PSMcClean: The news we all secretly feared - price of red red wine to jump as weak pound pushes up import costs. https://t.co/832uAUTXIS
Not keen on the Bolney reds myself; a little thin and vinegary to my taste.
Oterwise I agree; Chilean reds can be excellent.0 -
Britain was heavily involved in Europe after the war. For example, 10s of thousands of troops were stationed in Germany at huge cost. Some are still there today. The influence of these troops is huge. I cite the story of Volkswagen. There are many others.Cyclefree said:
They voted for change within Britain. They turned their back on Europe. It is - as I have argued - one of the biggest mistakes Britain made in the post-war era -Jonathan said:
That's not quite right Cyclefree. Those that fought and returned home from WW2 voted for change in Britain. People were unhappy with the status quo.Cyclefree said:
Nick: the reason I think our experience of WW2 influences the British attitude to Europe is two-fold and not related to the level of suffering:-NickPalmer said:SouthamObserver said:
1. We were not invaded. The experience of invasion/liberation leaves lasting impressions which those who do not share it find hard to understand. Those who are liberated feel gratitude, true, but can and do also feel resentment and shame at having been put in that position. There is a sense of failure there which those countries which have not endured can often find hard to understand.
2. Our democracy kept going through the war and in the period leading up to it. Our nation state survived and coped. It was a success. It did not collapse into civil war and totalitarianism. That was not the case in Continental Europe. Britain did not see the nation state failing and, therefore, did not feel the same visceral need to replace it with something else. Most of Continental Europe did see their nation states fail. While we perhaps fail to understand why the drive to a new European order is so strong in Europe, many EU states fail to understand why Britain feels that its democracy/nation state does not need to be turned into something else as a result of the events which are the drivers behind the European project.
They were also internationalist in outlook and promoted new institutions like the UN,Nato and the EU.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/18/britains-original-sins/
The UN/Nato are organisations where nation states come together for a common purpose. That is very different to an organization where the ultimate destination is, effectively, to do away with the concept of the nation state as it has been understood.
The goal of the WW2 generation was to make war impossible by crossing, blurring and diminishing the importance of national barriers. The EU, UN etc were all routes to achieve that.
We should remember that.0 -
SkyNews
Police: Nine people have been charged with aggravated trespass and being unlawfully airside after a protest at #LondonCityAirport yesterday0 -
Corbyn has been consistently hopeless when it comes to formal Debates in Parliament, but from commentaries I have rather got the impression that his PMQ performances were better and that he sometimes did outperform Cameron. The main complaint was that he had effectively destroyed PMQs on account of his approach based on questions received from voters.It rather took away the atmosphere of the occasion with many saying it had become boring.Moreover, much of the time the PM has no intention of answering unwelcome questions anyway, and simply proceeds with a well prepared script - particularly true of Cameron and Blair both of whom rather abused it.0
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Mr. StClare, like the Brown wetting himself at a press conference comment, I made the suggestion simply to see who would contest it as improbable.
No-one so far has.
Mr. Jonathan, we should, and we should also remember that it did nothing to prevent the Balkan genocide, and that war has always and will always happen. Pretending it can be stopped is folly. Working to reduce its frequency and depravity is commendable.
But the EU is a pipe dream of ideologues who are entirely unwilling to learn the lessons of history, and who consider democracy an obstacle.
Edited extra bit: lest anyone think I'm claiming credit for another's post, the Brown one cited above was b Mr. T.0 -
New constituency boundaries published next Tuesday0
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BBC:
"Construction of a UK-funded wall near Calais' so-called Jungle migrant camp will begin very soon, a minister says.
Dubbed the "Great Wall of Calais" by some media, the 4m (13ft) wall will run for 1km (0.6 miles) along both sides of the main road to Calais port."
Why the F are we paying for it?0 -
Truly extraordinary article on the mail online (ok, ok...)
Talking about the IS magazine featuring a flowerseller as a potential target.
I am amazed the article was allowed. Even a casual google of the names of those IS/AQ magazines might likely get you a 3am visit you didn't want and I can't believe the Mail is unaware of that.
Edit: I see other media is reporting it also. Idiots.0 -
I was about to say, we can't grow grapes any more because the EU has banned us from using Bordeaux mixture to keep the downy mildew at bay. Doh.GIN1138 said:
UK beer, cider and whisky makers won't be complaining...Scott_P said:@PSMcClean: The news we all secretly feared - price of red red wine to jump as weak pound pushes up import costs. https://t.co/832uAUTXIS
Anyway, with Climate Change turning us into the south of France it won't be long before we become a major global wine producing nation. As the Italian and French vines wither in the heat and droughts to come, we might well be in the "sweet spot" within the next 20 years!
Roger will be able to relocate from the Cote D'azur to Clacton...
Every silver lining etc...0 -
***Put's on an American drawl***SandyRentool said:BBC:
"Construction of a UK-funded wall near Calais' so-called Jungle migrant camp will begin very soon, a minister says.
Dubbed the "Great Wall of Calais" by some media, the 4m (13ft) wall will run for 1km (0.6 miles) along both sides of the main road to Calais port."
Why the F are we paying for it?
Mexico pay's for the wall...0 -
I do hope none of these idiots were planning on visiting the US soon, or indeed ever…PlatoSaid said:SkyNews
Police: Nine people have been charged with aggravated trespass and being unlawfully airside after a protest at #LondonCityAirport yesterday0 -
Floating voter? Yes, you float between Tory and UKIP!Morris_Dancer said:Mr. HYUFD, no. Not a Kipper either.
Floating voter's the term you're after. Or Morris Ballsoktonos - Morris the Balls Slayer.
Mr. Rentool, indeed.0 -
What's the max sentence for aggravated trespass?PlatoSaid said:SkyNews
Police: Nine people have been charged with aggravated trespass and being unlawfully airside after a protest at #LondonCityAirport yesterday
I was hoping they'd be done for endangering aircraft, can get life for that!0 -
Thank you. Does that cover E, W and S?Scott_P said:New constituency boundaries published next Tuesday
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Jonathan said:
Britain was heavily involved in Europe after the war. For example, 10s of thousands of troops were stationed in Germany at huge cost. Some are still there today. The influence of these troops is huge. I cite the story of Volkswagen. There are many others.Cyclefree said:
They voted for change within Britain. They turned their back on Europe. It is - as I have argued - one of the biggest mistakes Britain made in the post-war era -Jonathan said:
That's not quite right Cyclefree. Those that fought and returned home from WW2 voted for change in Britain. People were unhappy with the status quo.Cyclefree said:
Nick: the reason I think our experience of WW2 influences the British attitude to Europe is two-fold and not related to the level of suffering:-NickPalmer said:SouthamObserver said:
1. We were not invaded. The experience of invasion/liberation leaves lasting impressions which those who do not share it find hard to understand. Those who are liberated feel gratitude, true, but can and do also feel resentment and shame at having been put in that position. There is a sense of failure there which those countries which have not endured can often find hard to understand.
2. Our democracy kept going through the war and in the period leading up to it. Our nation state survived and coped. It was a success. It did not collapse into civil war and totalitarianism. That was not the case in Continental Europe. Britain did not see the nation state failing and, therefore, did not feel the same visceral need to replace it with something else. Most of Continental Europe did see their nation states fail. While we perhaps fail to understand why the drive to a new European order is so strong in Europe, many EU states fail to understand why Britain feels that its democracy/nation state does not need to be turned into something else as a result of the events which are the drivers behind the European project.
They were also internationalist in outlook and promoted new institutions like the UN,Nato and the EU.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/18/britains-original-sins/
The UN/Nato are organisations where nation states come together for a common purpose. That is very different to an organization where the ultimate destination is, effectively, to do away with the concept of the nation state as it has been understood.
The goal of the WW2 generation was to make war impossible by crossing, blurring and diminishing the importance of national barriers. The EU, UN etc were all routes to achieve that.
We should remember that.0 -
Gauke on DP programme is almost as unimpressive as Burgon. Gauke seems to have few views of his own and vacillates.0
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May still wants limited single market access though, see No 10's slapdown of Davis yesterdayJonathanD said:
None of our SoS seem that internationalist in outlook even if they were competent enough to negotiate all that. Even if they were, with Tory MPs sending out tweets about the British Empire and how being in the Single Market means you have to be in the EU, there wouldn't be enough MP support for it.TOPPING said:
It is relying on the fact that the UK is large enough to carve out a bespoke deal with all the benefits of, indeed membership somehow, of the single market, yet with a control on immigration.JonathanD said:
European Single market membership plus participation in its rule making alongside better trade deals with USA, Canada, India, Japan, and China and increased skilled migration would be the ideal but I don't think there is enough support in the Tory party for it and certainly its not what the people of Sunderland thought they were voting for.MaxPB said:
I'm still in the make the single market work camp and would favour staying in the EEA via EFTA. I don't think our external trade position is anywhere near strong enough to go it alone, at least not for the next 10 years.rottenborough said:
This is all rubbish. The real impact on UK economy will come when we actually exit the single market. At that point the problems of trying to trade with the EU bloc without being in the SM will become apparent.MaxPB said:
July data vs August data.Pulpstar said:The economic news seems poor today, but I swear only a few days ago it was 'very positive' ?
Do things change that quickly, I suspect not.
Perhaps we're doing a 6.5/10 'OK' and neither spectacularly badly or well
These guys think that's possible:
bruegel.org/2016/08/europe-after-brexit-a-proposal-for-a-continental-partnership/
Are any of our current relevant SoSs up to the task of achieving it? Bigger ask atm, IMO.0 -
Mr. HYUFD, I've voted for at least three other parties...0
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The problem with Syria is that there are a myriad factions, most of whom are pretty nasty. Which one would we want to see on top?Cyclefree said:
It is an irony that at a time of globalization and when internationalism is meant to be all the rage, at least amongst the bien pensants, the idea of intervening in a situation beyond our borders to stop an intolerable situation is so unfashionable.TOPPING said:
Unless you are in Syria.Cyclefree said:
My mother had a similar experience - but in Naples - hiding in the cellars of their home as the Allies bombed it. One of my uncles told me of how terrified he was hearing the bombs fall. Eventually, part of the family moved to Rome (the girls living in one place, the boys in another) and none of the family seeing my grandfather who stayed in Naples until the war was over. She remembers the convent where they stayed as being full of Jews who sheltered there. Her maternal line was Jewish, even though they had been Catholics for several generations.SouthamObserver said:
My Dad was three when it began. I remember my grandmother telling me about him shaking and crying in the bomb shelter as everything exploded above ground. It's extraordinary to think that itPlatoSaid said:The London Blitz began 75 years ago on 7 September 1940, and marked the start of 57 consecutive nights of bombing. https://t.co/EqpTNL95nj
Great Pathe footage
When I contrast her experiences with that of my daughter at the same age, so fortunate to have lived entirely through a time of peace, and, indeed, my own, the phrase "count your blessings" really does have meaning.
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Perhaps all this love for internationalism is a bit like Augustine's take on celibacy. "Make me an internationalist - but not yet - and not in Syria. Or Iraq. Or Somalia. Or Yemen. Or South Sudan. Or Afghanistan. Or anywhere else nasty."0 -
Andrew Neil is a class act. Clearly does his own research, and refuses to accept some bollocks side-stepping answer from anyone.TCPoliticalBetting said:Andrew Neil tearing strips off govt minister Gauke (REMAINer) on DP.
"where is the bit that you got right minister?"0 -
E & W. Scotland to come later.TCPoliticalBetting said:Thank you. Does that cover E, W and S?
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Hopefully treated as overseas aid and paid for by DFID.SandyRentool said:BBC:
"Construction of a UK-funded wall near Calais' so-called Jungle migrant camp will begin very soon, a minister says.
Dubbed the "Great Wall of Calais" by some media, the 4m (13ft) wall will run for 1km (0.6 miles) along both sides of the main road to Calais port."
Why the F are we paying for it?0 -
League of Empire Loyalists amongst them? Seriously unless you voted for Blair in 1997, 2001 and 2005 then voted for Cameron in 2010 and 2015 you are not in the key pool of voters Umunna would need to targetMorris_Dancer said:Mr. HYUFD, I've voted for at least three other parties...
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The only way to do any of this is to send in an overwhelming force to stabilise the country, and defeat everyone. Then, with this security in place, it could be decided, together with stakeholders, who should run the country and how.Sean_F said:
The problem with Syria is that there are a myriad factions, most of whom are pretty nasty. Which one would we want to see on top?Cyclefree said:
It is an irony that at a time of globalization and when internationalism is meant to be all the rage, at least amongst the bien pensants, the idea of intervening in a situation beyond our borders to stop an intolerable situation is so unfashionable.TOPPING said:
Unless you are in Syria.Cyclefree said:
My mother had a similar experience - but in Naples - hiding in the cellars of their home as the Allies bombed it. One of my uncles told me of how terrified he was hearing the bombs fall. Eventually, part of the family moved to Rome (the girls living in one place, the boys in another) and none of the family seeing my grandfather who stayed in Naples until the war was over. She remembers the convent where they stayed as being full of Jews who sheltered there. Her maternal line was Jewish, even though they had been Catholics for several generations.SouthamObserver said:
My Dad was three when it began. I remember my grandmother telling me about him shaking and crying in the bomb shelter as everything exploded above ground. It's extraordinary to think that itPlatoSaid said:The London Blitz began 75 years ago on 7 September 1940, and marked the start of 57 consecutive nights of bombing. https://t.co/EqpTNL95nj
Great Pathe footage
When I contrast her experiences with that of my daughter at the same age, so fortunate to have lived entirely through a time of peace, and, indeed, my own, the phrase "count your blessings" really does have meaning.
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Perhaps all this love for internationalism is a bit like Augustine's take on celibacy. "Make me an internationalist - but not yet - and not in Syria. Or Iraq. Or Somalia. Or Yemen. Or South Sudan. Or Afghanistan. Or anywhere else nasty."
No one is going to be up for it, however.0 -
The obvious joke for May to make is Owen/email/Jezza related. With Cam we could look forward to a zinger. My toes are already curling at the thought of her making it.0
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I do remember that precisely because of my family's history, as my earlier post about my mother's experience would have made clear.Cyclefree said:Jonathan said:
Britain was heavily involved in Europe after the war. For example, 10s of thousands of troops were stationed in Germany at huge cost. Some are still there today. The influence of these troops is huge. I cite the story of Volkswagen. There are many others.Cyclefree said:
They voted for change within Britain. They turned their back on Europe. It is - as I have argued - one of the biggest mistakes Britain made in the post-war era -Jonathan said:
That's not quite right Cyclefree. Those that fought and returned home from WW2 voted for change in Britain. People were unhappy with the status quo.Cyclefree said:
They were also internationalist in outlook and promoted new institutions like the UN,Nato and the EU.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/18/britains-original-sins/
The UN/Nato are organisations where nation states come together for a common purpose. That is very different to an organization where the ultimate destination is, effectively, to do away with the concept of the nation state as it has been understood.
The goal of the WW2 generation was to make war impossible by crossing, blurring and diminishing the importance of national barriers. The EU, UN etc were all routes to achieve that.
We should remember that.
But it is this - "The goal of the WW2 generation was to make war impossible by crossing, blurring and diminishing the importance of national barriers." - which I take issue with.
It was not the existence of national barriers which caused wars. It was the absence of strong liberal democracies which allowed the conditions for war to flourish. Liberal democracies do not tend to fight each other. Abolishing national barriers is not the answer. Strengthening liberal democracy is. My beef with the EU as it is now developing is that it seems to view democracy as an obstacle rather than the answer. Trying to erase national boundaries against the wishes of the people seems to me to be more likely to lead to the sorts of conditions in which illiberalism - and the risk of war - are likely to flourish than the opposite.0 -
Oral Questions to the Prime Minister Q1 Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West)
Will that be "Can you please tell me if I am in the Shadow Cabinet?"0 -
Exactly so. Which is why all this talk of internationalism is so much phooey.TOPPING said:
The only way to do any of this is to send in an overwhelming force to stabilise the country, and defeat everyone. Then, with this security in place, it could be decided, together with stakeholders, who should run the country and how.Sean_F said:
The problem with Syria is that there are a myriad factions, most of whom are pretty nasty. Which one would we want to see on top?Cyclefree said:
It is an irony that at a time of globalization and when internationalism is meant to be all the rage, at least amongst the bien pensants, the idea of intervening in a situation beyond our borders to stop an intolerable situation is so unfashionable.TOPPING said:
Unless you are in Syria.Cyclefree said:
My mother had a similar experience - but in Naples - hiding in the cellars of their home as the Allies bombed it. One of my uncles told me of how terrified he was hearing the bombs fall. Eventually, part of the family moved to Rome (the girls living in one place, the boys in another) and none of the family seeing my grandfather who stayed in Naples until the war was over. She remembers the convent where they stayed as being full of Jews who sheltered there. Her maternal line was Jewish, even though they had been Catholics for several generations.SouthamObserver said:
My Dad was three when it began. I remember my grandmother telling me about him shaking and crying in the bomb shelter as everything exploded above ground. It's extraordinary to think that itPlatoSaid said:The London Blitz began 75 years ago on 7 September 1940, and marked the start of 57 consecutive nights of bombing. https://t.co/EqpTNL95nj
Great Pathe footage
When I contrast her experiences with that of my daughter at the same age, so fortunate to have lived entirely through a time of peace, and, indeed, my own, the phrase "count your blessings" really does have meaning.
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Perhaps all this love for internationalism is a bit like Augustine's take on celibacy. "Make me an internationalist - but not yet - and not in Syria. Or Iraq. Or Somalia. Or Yemen. Or South Sudan. Or Afghanistan. Or anywhere else nasty."
No one is going to be up for it, however.
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It's part of the agreement that allows us to exercise border controls on the soil of another Soveriegn nation.SandyRentool said:BBC:
"Construction of a UK-funded wall near Calais' so-called Jungle migrant camp will begin very soon, a minister says.
Dubbed the "Great Wall of Calais" by some media, the 4m (13ft) wall will run for 1km (0.6 miles) along both sides of the main road to Calais port."
Why the F are we paying for it?0 -
Unless you are good at making jokes and being witty you should try to avoid them. And even if you are you should use them sparingly, to avoid the Hague problem. May should play to her strengths.TOPPING said:The obvious joke for May to make is Owen/email/Jezza related. With Cam we could look forward to a zinger. My toes are already curling at the thought of her making it.
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Mr. HYUFD, I'm in a red-blue marginal that has a large UKIP share of the vote. The idea my vote doesn't matter (even if it were a blue/purple decision) to the reds is nonsense. If 600 people go from blue to purple, Labour win next time, assuming all else is equal.0
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Indeed. I hope she is not advised to do otherwise.Cyclefree said:
Unless you are good at making jokes and being witty you should try to avoid them. And even if you are you should use them sparingly, to avoid the Hague problem. May should play to her strengths.TOPPING said:The obvious joke for May to make is Owen/email/Jezza related. With Cam we could look forward to a zinger. My toes are already curling at the thought of her making it.
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Yes, if we can achieve that then we would be doing very well and is the best case scenario in economic terms. However, as I and many others have pointed out, leaving the EU hasn't always been about economic gains or losses. People are prepared to accept economic hardship in order to achieve the goal of leaving the EU, how much hardship is obviously up for debate, but I think that after the referendum campaign that should be accepted.JonathanD said:
European Single market membership plus participation in its rule making alongside better trade deals with USA, Canada, India, Japan, and China and increased skilled migration would be the ideal but I don't think there is enough support in the Tory party for it and certainly its not what the people of Sunderland thought they were voting for.MaxPB said:
I'm still in the make the single market work camp and would favour staying in the EEA via EFTA. I don't think our external trade position is anywhere near strong enough to go it alone, at least not for the next 10 years.rottenborough said:
This is all rubbish. The real impact on UK economy will come when we actually exit the single market. At that point the problems of trying to trade with the EU bloc without being in the SM will become apparent.MaxPB said:
July data vs August data.Pulpstar said:The economic news seems poor today, but I swear only a few days ago it was 'very positive' ?
Do things change that quickly, I suspect not.
Perhaps we're doing a 6.5/10 'OK' and neither spectacularly badly or well
I'd be very surprised if meaningful immigration reforms can be achieved if we choose to stay in the single market. Getting 3.5 freedoms is a non-starter IMO. We shouldn't even bother to entertain such an idea. I think the best that could have been achieved was turning four freedoms into 3.8 freedoms for the whole of the EU, but the time for that has probably passed.TOPPING said:It is relying on the fact that the UK is large enough to carve out a bespoke deal with all the benefits of, indeed membership somehow, of the single market, yet with a control on immigration.
These guys think that's possible:
bruegel.org/2016/08/europe-after-brexit-a-proposal-for-a-continental-partnership/
It might be; I think it's a big ask (as I have, ahem, commented on the article).
Are any of our current relevant SoSs up to the task of achieving it? Bigger ask atm, IMO.0 -
Stein
#BREAKING: Arrests after car full of gas cylinders owned by person on watchlist found by Paris's Notre Dame Saturday https://t.co/LLahvNh6wE0 -
Who's gonna pay for it?SandyRentool said:BBC:
"Construction of a UK-funded wall near Calais' so-called Jungle migrant camp will begin very soon, a minister says.
Dubbed the "Great Wall of Calais" by some media, the 4m (13ft) wall will run for 1km (0.6 miles) along both sides of the main road to Calais port."
Why the F are we paying for it?
Crowd: The frogs! Crowd goes wild.0 -
Bloody hell I think my blood pressure just spiked to 200!!0
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Yes but blue to purple switchers would come only because of May failing to implement hard BREXIT, what Labour do is irrelevant to those Tories considering UKIPMorris_Dancer said:Mr. HYUFD, I'm in a red-blue marginal that has a large UKIP share of the vote. The idea my vote doesn't matter (even if it were a blue/purple decision) to the reds is nonsense. If 600 people go from blue to purple, Labour win next time, assuming all else is equal.
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Theresa May starts by congratulating the British Olympic team. They did themselves and their country proud, she says. And she offers best wishes to the Paralympic team.
Hear, hear.0 -
Who is that bloke sitting next to the PM?0
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Mexico!nunu said:
Who's gonna pay for it?SandyRentool said:BBC:
"Construction of a UK-funded wall near Calais' so-called Jungle migrant camp will begin very soon, a minister says.
Dubbed the "Great Wall of Calais" by some media, the 4m (13ft) wall will run for 1km (0.6 miles) along both sides of the main road to Calais port."
Why the F are we paying for it?
Crowd: The frogs! Crowd goes wild.0 -
Mr HYUFD, no, because part of the equation when deciding how to vote is whether a red victory would be terrible or acceptable.0
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She struggled on unis and on farmers. Pure waffle. Every hostile question is going to boil down to: what is brexit going to look like?
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who's that sitting next to Jezza?
Just kidding it's Diane of course.0 -
Ben Gummerrottenborough said:Who is that bloke sitting next to the PM?
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Tom Watson's face...0
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James Hewittrottenborough said:Who is that bloke sitting next to the PM?
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Is he the one his dad fed the madcowburger to?TheScreamingEagles said:
Ben Gummerrottenborough said:Who is that bloke sitting next to the PM?
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and he does what?TOPPING said:
James Hewittrottenborough said:Who is that bloke sitting next to the PM?
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dear god a continuity question.
Has Jezza been reading PB?0 -
His sister I believe.Ishmael_X said:
Is he the one his dad fed the madcowburger to?TheScreamingEagles said:
Ben Gummerrottenborough said:Who is that bloke sitting next to the PM?
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and she does what?TOPPING said:who's that sitting next to Jezza?
Just kidding it's Diane of course.0 -
No that was Cordelia.Ishmael_X said:
Is he the one his dad fed the madcowburger to?TheScreamingEagles said:
Ben Gummerrottenborough said:Who is that bloke sitting next to the PM?
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just kidding x2rottenborough said:
and he does what?TOPPING said:
James Hewittrottenborough said:Who is that bloke sitting next to the PM?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hewitt0 -
LOLrottenborough said:
and she does what?TOPPING said:who's that sitting next to Jezza?
Just kidding it's Diane of course.0 -
LOL the PM's trolling Corbyn from his own Twitter account.0
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Silly me to forget how Jezza responds to the sight of an open goal.
PS But please Theresa, that's enough jokes.0 -
It is mentally impaired people. After all one would have to be mad to drive around in such a vehicle.PlatoSaid said:Stein
#BREAKING: Arrests after car full of gas cylinders owned by person on watchlist found by Paris's Notre Dame Saturday https://t.co/LLahvNh6wE
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At least Jezza is attacking on a front that makes sense: housing.0
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Ouch from Mrs May, Corbyn is again displaying the anguish of a man with a bumblebee trapped under his foreskin0
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Corbyn could waffle for Britain.0
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Who's the MP with the beard and a pony tail? sitting right of Corbyn?0
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Must be SNP by look of his mates.PlatoSaid said:Who's the MP with the beard and a pony tail? sitting right of Corbyn?
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Chris Law, SNP MPPlatoSaid said:Who's the MP with the beard and a pony tail? sitting right of Corbyn?
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He is asking a series of questions on the same subject - housing - and that is the best form of attack at PMQ and he is doing it not badly.
If only he hadn't shot to pieces his credibility over the past 40 years then he could be described as improving, if still far from competent.0 -
Sparrow: - Corbyn quotes from a note from Jenny. She and her partner work in a supermarket. They have been told they can borrow £73,000. So there is not much hope for them (getting on the housing ladder)
It is not a right, to own your own home, twas ever thus.0 -
Fair point from Corbyn, but as ever he could have said it two sentences and not twenty.0
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Meanwhile the massed ranks of sketch writers are on Prime Location working out how much you can get for £73,000, and where.SimonStClare said:Sparrow: - Corbyn quotes from a note from Jenny. She and her partner work in a supermarket. They have been told they can borrow £73,000. So there is not much hope for them (getting on the housing ladder)
It is not a right, to own your own home, twas ever thus.0 -
2/3 of the way through the half hour session, and still Corbyn's asking his questions.rottenborough said:Fair point from Corbyn, but as ever he could have said it two sentences and not twenty.
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Sebastian Payne
Jeremy Corbyn could not be less enthusiastic at #PMQs today. It's almost like he doesn't like holding the government to account0 -
On the old rule of thumb if you borrow 3 times your salary that means that they are jointly earning 24k, which ar 12k each means they both on the minimum wage, or very close to it.TOPPING said:
Meanwhile the massed ranks of sketch writers are on Prime Location working out how much you can get for £73,000, and where.SimonStClare said:Sparrow: - Corbyn quotes from a note from Jenny. She and her partner work in a supermarket. They have been told they can borrow £73,000. So there is not much hope for them (getting on the housing ladder)
It is not a right, to own your own home, twas ever thus.0 -
May is vulnerable.0
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But Jeremy only knows London prices, he doesn't realise that in a large part of the country it's possible to buy a flat for less than £100k.TOPPING said:
Meanwhile the massed ranks of sketch writers are on Prime Location working out how much you can get for £73,000, and where.SimonStClare said:Sparrow: - Corbyn quotes from a note from Jenny. She and her partner work in a supermarket. They have been told they can borrow £73,000. So there is not much hope for them (getting on the housing ladder)
It is not a right, to own your own home, twas ever thus.0 -
Not really because for someone like you a red victory would always be terrible regardless who leads them and even if you liked one Labour leader a little more than others other potential Kippers would disagree. That would not be what they switched their vote onMorris_Dancer said:Mr HYUFD, no, because part of the equation when deciding how to vote is whether a red victory would be terrible or acceptable.
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No, but it's not an unreasonable policy direction to want working people to be able to afford to own a modest home. Seems the government is going for Thatcher minus the good bits.SimonStClare said:Sparrow: - Corbyn quotes from a note from Jenny. She and her partner work in a supermarket. They have been told they can borrow £73,000. So there is not much hope for them (getting on the housing ladder)
It is not a right, to own your own home, twas ever thus.0 -
Indeed - However, I suggest they start their search above the M4 corridor, way above...!TOPPING said:
Meanwhile the massed ranks of sketch writers are on Prime Location working out how much you can get for £73,000, and where.SimonStClare said:Sparrow: - Corbyn quotes from a note from Jenny. She and her partner work in a supermarket. They have been told they can borrow £73,000. So there is not much hope for them (getting on the housing ladder)
It is not a right, to own your own home, twas ever thus.0 -
Does he prepare for PMQs? Like try out his questions, think about responses, think about the wording? It doesn't sound like he does.rottenborough said:Fair point from Corbyn, but as ever he could have said it two sentences and not twenty.
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Now it is more like 4 times salary to buy and even that is not enough in LondonSlackbladder said:
On the old rule of thumb if you borrow 3 times your salary that means that they are jointly earning 24k, which ar 12k each means they both on the minimum wage, or very close to it.TOPPING said:
Meanwhile the massed ranks of sketch writers are on Prime Location working out how much you can get for £73,000, and where.SimonStClare said:Sparrow: - Corbyn quotes from a note from Jenny. She and her partner work in a supermarket. They have been told they can borrow £73,000. So there is not much hope for them (getting on the housing ladder)
It is not a right, to own your own home, twas ever thus.0 -
Boundary Commission reports are fascinating. Especially when you realise you could do a better job in about five bloody minutes.0
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It's not a right but for the country as a whole its better if as many people as possible own their own home. It should certainly be part of the social contract of the UK that if people are working full time, then buying a house should be possible.SimonStClare said:
It is not a right, to own your own home, twas ever thus.
Ultimately, 40 years ago the equivalent of these supermarket workers owned and ran a corner store with their flat above. If they can't have the same security today, something has gone wrong.
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I know. i was being conservative. But just showing ig you can only borrow 73k, then you must be amongst some of the lowest paid workers in the country.HYUFD said:
Now it is more like 4 times salary to buy and even that is not enough in LondonSlackbladder said:
On the old rule of thumb if you borrow 3 times your salary that means that they are jointly earning 24k, which ar 12k each means they both on the minimum wage, or very close to it.TOPPING said:
Meanwhile the massed ranks of sketch writers are on Prime Location working out how much you can get for £73,000, and where.SimonStClare said:Sparrow: - Corbyn quotes from a note from Jenny. She and her partner work in a supermarket. They have been told they can borrow £73,000. So there is not much hope for them (getting on the housing ladder)
It is not a right, to own your own home, twas ever thus.0 -
How is 10MB in any way "high speed" broadband? Should be aiming for 100MB.0
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It is high speed broadband when you've got 512k broadbandSandpit said:How is 10MB in any way "high speed" broadband? Should be aiming for 100MB.
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Ooh, Manchester are bidding for the 2025 World Expo?0
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Yup we are.Sandpit said:Ooh, Manchester are bidding for the 2025 World Expo?
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OMG I've used 'we' when talking about Manchester.
The shame, THE SHAME.0 -
They need to sort it out themselves. That is not callous indifference. Only they can solve their own problems. What international third parties CAN do is to support those that are trying to make a positive difference. That places like Syria don't have to be like this. The key here, I think, is Egypt. It's the largest and most influential Arab state. We should be on the side of those that push for democracy, liberalism and prosperity rather than thinking we are more comfortable with a strongman like Sissi. If Egypt is a good example of a country that works, I am sure others will follow. The West's unconditional support for Israel is a problem, although I accept it is a complicated problem. And then there is our indifference to Russia, who for the record are indiscriminately killing far more Syrian civilians as agents of that government than ISIS does on the streets of Europe.TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
Unless you are in Syria.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Incidentally, I knew Syria somewhat and have good friends who live there. Despite the hideous government, it used to be a NICE place.
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Yes, bears have foreskins.TheScreamingEagles said:Given we have bee experts on PB do we have any bear experts on PB?
The original version was with the 'pained anguish of a bear with a bumblebee trapped under its foreskin'
But I don't know it bear todgers have foreskins.
I regret googling 'bear foreskins' given what bears mean in the homosexual community.
Don't ask.0 -
Agree with you about the Bolney reds, or indeed any English red. We can't make them to a high enough standard, a climate thing, I think. Our whites and roses on the other hand, and especially some of the sparkling wines, frequently beat the French stuff in blind tastings and for equivalent quality are much cheaper. Ridgeview has been served at state banquets including the one held for Obama a few years ago.OldKingCole said:
Had some excellent Argentine champagne type wine the other day. From Moet’s Argentian vineyard.HurstLlama said:
I never knew you were an Al Murray fan Mr. Flashman(deceased). If Mr. P is a red wine chap then possibly his bet for value is to go for the Chilean stuff. If he can cope with white or rose then the fall in the value of the pound make some of the English wines even more attractive. Ridgeview, Nyetimber (if you must) or Bolney estate are a little expensive for everyday drinking but become less so and much better value as the Frog stuff becomes even more over-priced.TGOHF said:
Drink beautiful British craft beer Scott - those fruit based drinks are for the lovely ladies.Scott_P said:@PSMcClean: The news we all secretly feared - price of red red wine to jump as weak pound pushes up import costs. https://t.co/832uAUTXIS
Not keen on the Bolney reds myself; a little thin and vinegary to my taste.
Oterwise I agree; Chilean reds can be excellent.
That said, for everyday quaffing I alternate between a Vinho Verde and a New Zealand (Cooke's Bay, a NZ Sauvignon Blanc, is excellent and is still only £6.50 a bottle at my village off-licence).0 -
Didn't know that, good luck to them.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yup we are.Sandpit said:Ooh, Manchester are bidding for the 2025 World Expo?
2020 edition is in Dubai, and it's driving massive inward investment and development in the city0 -
Thank you.Animal_pb said:
Yes, bears have foreskins.TheScreamingEagles said:Given we have bee experts on PB do we have any bear experts on PB?
The original version was with the 'pained anguish of a bear with a bumblebee trapped under its foreskin'
But I don't know it bear todgers have foreskins.
I regret googling 'bear foreskins' given what bears mean in the homosexual community.
Don't ask.0 -
First PMQ's for May was very good, this one not so much and I don't think it's because Corbyn raised his game he's still as rubbish as ever.
May probably faces a harder time from her own party with the usual lot bleating about Europe (they won and now they all have their own ideas on what the victory outcome should be so some are bound to end up unhappy).0 -
Civil wars end in one of two ways - one side wins, or there is a negotiated settlement. It has been argued that it is best for one side to win then they will have an overwhelming military mandate and peace will reign.FF43 said:
They need to sort it out themselves. That is not callous indifference. Only they can solve their own problems. What international third parties CAN do is to support those that are trying to make a positive difference. That places like Syria don't have to be like this. The key here, I think, is Egypt. It's the largest and most influential Arab state. We should be on the side of those that push for democracy, liberalism and prosperity rather than thinking we are more comfortable with a strongman like Sissi. If Egypt is a good example of a country that works, I am sure others will follow. The West's unconditional support for Israel is a problem, although I accept it is a complicated problem. And then there is our indifference to Russia, who for the record are indiscriminately killing far more Syrian civilians as agents of that government than ISIS does on the streets of Europe.TOPPING said:
@Cyclefree
Whatever the worries about Brexit, the economy etc, we are really very fortunate.
Unless you are in Syria.
It really is intolerable that such a situation should be allowed to persist; perhaps another legacy of Iraq. Which power is going to commit hundreds of thousands of troops to make and then maintain peace anywhere these days?
Incidentally, I knew Syria somewhat and have good friends who live there. Despite the hideous government, it used to be a NICE place.
However, as we are aware, there are external actors in play in Syria preventing a decisive outcome. While this continues, there is no way that they can "sort it out themselves".
As for the other points you make, post-Soviet era Egypt has always tried to be pragmatic, especially towards and with Israel, whose latter relationship with the West I can't think is a particularly large motivating factor for IS.0 -
Generally I think PMQs is one of the only things that Corbyn does OK at. He's an issues guy with little interest in policy. The PMQs format suits issues. The problem is that being good at PMQs has just one practical benefit for party leaders. Which is that it is the one forum in which the leader can rally the troops and engender a team spirit amongst the MPs. Other than that, being an MP is a solitary business. Corbyn's problem is that his MPs despise him almost to a man and woman. No team spirit there.0
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Corbyn really needs to shorten the time he takes to ask a question IMHO. - Pithy, they ain’t.jonny83 said:First PMQ's for May was very good, this one not so much and I don't think it's because Corbyn raised his game he's still as rubbish as ever.
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May's not really all that as a politician is she? Very lucky to be up against a lightweight like Corbyn.0
This discussion has been closed.