As first days go at an international school, the G20 passed off alright for the new pupil.
Theresa May met all the right people, the language differences did not trouble her and she refused to allow the big boys to bully her behind the bike sheds. The prime minister held her own.
At the end of the two days, she had managed to speak to almost all the world leaders at the summit. They were interested because she was an unknown quantity and that rare beast, a European leader who is likely to be around for a while....
...The message in Hangzhou was clear: Theresa May is her own woman, the Cameron era is over.
Lansdale should know that May's position in the group photo had nowt to do with 'Britain's diminished status' and everything to do with how long she has been in the job.....
"refused to allow the big boys to bully her behind the bike sheds"
The author clearly did not get much boy/girl bike shed action. Not enough girls at Eton, methinks.
“You Brits voted Brexit because you wanted to be taken seriously as an independent world power. Fine. Now, own it. Be serious. That means getting on with it.”
And the government cannot do that because it has no idea how to achieve what it wants - which is to keep all the benefits of being in the single market but to have full control over immigration.
It struck me this morning that the grammar school business is another Theresa may sop to the Tory right - a way to buy credit for that time when triggering A50 is no longer avoidable and the reality of the trade-offs we will have to make hit home. I expect other moves right over the coming months for the same reason. And none of it will work. A betrayed Tory EU-obsessive is an uncontrollable beast.
I don't think the Grammar school stuff is as calculated as that, I think may just likes grammar schools regardless of the evidence.
It creates a fight on which May is positioned with the vast majority of right wing anti-EU Tory obsessives. I may be cynical, but I can't help thinking that's where she wants to be right now because she knows what's coming once A50 is triggered.
Mr. Eagles, toppled? He toppled himself. And you forget that he was defeated on the EU because of his own many failures. The deal was worthless, its presentation as 'good' insulted the intelligence of everyone who heard it, he belittled the majority of the electorate with his 'little England' nonsense, he had no answer on migration. It was a catalogue of errors, a litany of complacency.
Mr. P, arrogant is not great, but ruthless is a very good attribute for a politician, surely?
But Corbyn has already seen off one Tory leader, so he must be doing something right....
Doesn't count, Cameron had already announced his retirement before Corbyn became Labour leader.
Yes, retirement is the word I'm going to use, as opposed to the other r word, as I still haven't come to terms with Dave's *retirement*
Yes it does (sort of). Cameron might have pre-announced his retirement but that was for late in the parliament; it certainly wasn't intended to be for 2016.
Corbyn thus became the first Labour leader to witness a change of Conservative leadership since Blair and only the third since 1957.
Mr. Eagles, toppled? He toppled himself. And you forget that he was defeated on the EU because of his own many failures. The deal was worthless, its presentation as 'good' insulted the intelligence of everyone who heard it, he belittled the majority of the electorate with his 'little England' nonsense, he had no answer on migration. It was a catalogue of errors, a litany of complacency.
Mr. P, arrogant is not great, but ruthless is a very good attribute for a politician, surely?
But Corbyn has already seen off one Tory leader, so he must be doing something right....
Doesn't count, Cameron had already announced his retirement before Corbyn became Labour leader.
Yes, retirement is the word I'm going to use, as opposed to the other r word, as I still haven't come to terms with Dave's *retirement*
Yes it does (sort of). Cameron might have pre-announced his retirement but that was for late in the parliament; it certainly wasn't intended to be for 2016.
Corbyn thus became the first Labour leader to witness a change of Conservative leadership since Blair and only the third since 1957.
As head of The Provisional Wing of The Continuity Cameron Army, your two posts aren't cheering me up.
But Corbyn has already seen off one Tory leader, so he must be doing something right....
Doesn't count, Cameron had already announced his retirement before Corbyn became Labour leader.
Yes, retirement is the word I'm going to use, as opposed to the other r word, as I still haven't come to terms with Dave's *retirement*
Yes it does (sort of). Cameron might have pre-announced his retirement but that was for late in the parliament; it certainly wasn't intended to be for 2016.
Corbyn thus became the first Labour leader to witness a change of Conservative leadership since Blair and only the third since 1957.
But Corbyn has already seen off one Tory leader, so he must be doing something right....
Doesn't count, Cameron had already announced his retirement before Corbyn became Labour leader.
Yes, retirement is the word I'm going to use, as opposed to the other r word, as I still haven't come to terms with Dave's *retirement*
Yes it does (sort of). Cameron might have pre-announced his retirement but that was for late in the parliament; it certainly wasn't intended to be for 2016.
Corbyn thus became the first Labour leader to witness a change of Conservative leadership since Blair and only the third since 1957.
And since the non-Corbynite PLP blames the Eurosceptic Corbyn for losing the referendum, if this was indeed deliberate then Corbyn really has seen off David Cameron.
But Corbyn has already seen off one Tory leader, so he must be doing something right....
Doesn't count, Cameron had already announced his retirement before Corbyn became Labour leader.
Yes, retirement is the word I'm going to use, as opposed to the other r word, as I still haven't come to terms with Dave's *retirement*
Yes it does (sort of). Cameron might have pre-announced his retirement but that was for late in the parliament; it certainly wasn't intended to be for 2016.
Corbyn thus became the first Labour leader to witness a change of Conservative leadership since Blair and only the third since 1957.
But Corbyn has already seen off one Tory leader, so he must be doing something right....
Doesn't count, Cameron had already announced his retirement before Corbyn became Labour leader.
Yes, retirement is the word I'm going to use, as opposed to the other r word, as I still haven't come to terms with Dave's *retirement*
Yes it does (sort of). Cameron might have pre-announced his retirement but that was for late in the parliament; it certainly wasn't intended to be for 2016.
Corbyn thus became the first Labour leader to witness a change of Conservative leadership since Blair and only the third since 1957.
And since the non-Corbynite PLP blames the Eurosceptic Corbyn for losing the referendum, if this was indeed deliberate then Corbyn really has seen off David Cameron.
I'd agree. Corbyn's highly ambivalent attitude to the EURef may well have swung the vote. Of course, in a close vote, many things can swing the result but the left-wing anti-TTIP lobby might well have been a big enough group by itself to have made the difference. If not, it was certainly big enough to have gone a very long way to tipping it and Labour's lack of effective ground campaign, resulting from his ineffective leadership, should have accounted for the rest.
But the biggest failure had to be Cameron himself.
So the first big piece of real data (not sentiment based) is coming in 15 mins, manufacturing production for July. If the PMIs were right and not a sentiment based over reaction then they will be about -0.5% for the month.
Also, Carney is on live later today. I'm sure the committee will ask him why the monetary action was so aggressive when the signs were already there that it was just a one month shock to sentiment rather than a prolonged downturn,
But Corbyn has already seen off one Tory leader, so he must be doing something right....
Doesn't count, Cameron had already announced his retirement before Corbyn became Labour leader.
Yes, retirement is the word I'm going to use, as opposed to the other r word, as I still haven't come to terms with Dave's *retirement*
Yes it does (sort of). Cameron might have pre-announced his retirement but that was for late in the parliament; it certainly wasn't intended to be for 2016.
Corbyn thus became the first Labour leader to witness a change of Conservative leadership since Blair and only the third since 1957.
Edit - fourth. Forgot Kinnock in 1990.
So same as Tories then.
Cameron Major Thatcher Macmillan
All 'Saw off Labour leaders'
Heath Hague IDS Howard
Didn't.
True. But of both lists, none yet has seen off an opposing party leader and also failed to become PM / win an election before leaving office.
@rcs1000, the reason I think CETA is dead is because the French forced the commission into giving all 28 nations final right of ratification instead of just one signature from the commission. It is going to be a tough sell for all 28 nations to get it ratified when there is so much anti-EU/globalisation sentiment all over the continent. In a sense we are lucky that our post-Brexit settlement deal requires a QMV rather than unanimity.
The tories will soon realise they have a big problem with May. It could come as soon as today when MPs try to find out whatever the f8ck she believes about Brexit.
The truth, of course is that May believes anything that is seen as popular and successful, and is against anything that doesn;t work initially and is seen as unpopular.
She wants a soft brexit with a hard edge, or should I say a hard Brexit with distinctly soft characteristics. She wants free movement that isn;t THAT free. Or something. Advocators of hard Brexit are wrong, but that doesn;t mean soft brexiters should start celebrating.
Result? total confusion and lack of leadership. In Britain. Abroad. Everywhere.
UKIP jubilant.
When she was elected I posted Theresa May is UKIP's candidate of choice and I'm sticking with that.
Election in 2017? do me a favour. I'd like to see odds on May lasting until 2017.
But Corbyn has already seen off one Tory leader, so he must be doing something right....
Doesn't count, Cameron had already announced his retirement before Corbyn became Labour leader.
Yes, retirement is the word I'm going to use, as opposed to the other r word, as I still haven't come to terms with Dave's *retirement*
Yes it does (sort of). Cameron might have pre-announced his retirement but that was for late in the parliament; it certainly wasn't intended to be for 2016.
Corbyn thus became the first Labour leader to witness a change of Conservative leadership since Blair and only the third since 1957.
A neat illustration of the problems with taking a single statistic out of context
But Corbyn has already seen off one Tory leader, so he must be doing something right....
Doesn't count, Cameron had already announced his retirement before Corbyn became Labour leader.
Yes, retirement is the word I'm going to use, as opposed to the other r word, as I still haven't come to terms with Dave's *retirement*
Yes it does (sort of). Cameron might have pre-announced his retirement but that was for late in the parliament; it certainly wasn't intended to be for 2016.
Corbyn thus became the first Labour leader to witness a change of Conservative leadership since Blair and only the third since 1957.
And since the non-Corbynite PLP blames the Eurosceptic Corbyn for losing the referendum, if this was indeed deliberate then Corbyn really has seen off David Cameron.
I'd agree. Corbyn's highly ambivalent attitude to the EURef may well have swung the vote. Of course, in a close vote, many things can swing the result but the left-wing anti-TTIP lobby might well have been a big enough group by itself to have made the difference. If not, it was certainly big enough to have gone a very long way to tipping it and Labour's lack of effective ground campaign, resulting from his ineffective leadership, should have accounted for the rest.
But the biggest failure had to be Cameron himself.
I think I've mentioned this before on here but I was with friends in Woking on Christmas Eve and we got talking to a girl (early 20s) who had a "No to TTIP" badge on. I was quite drunk at the time but really excitedly asked "will you be voting to leave the EU?" I can't remember her reasoning but she said she would vote to Remain.
The tories will soon realise they have a big problem with May. It could come as soon as today when MPs try to find out whatever the f8ck she believes about Brexit.
The truth, of course is that May believes anything that is seen as popular and successful, and is against anything that doesn;t work initially and is seen as unpopular.
She wants a soft brexit with a hard edge, or should I say a hard Brexit with distinctly soft characteristics. She wants free movement that isn;t THAT free. Or something. Advocators of hard Brexit are wrong, but that doesn;t mean soft brexiters should start celebrating.
Result? total confusion and lack of leadership. In Britain. Abroad. Everywhere.
UKIP jubilant.
When she was elected I posted Theresa May is UKIP's candidate of choice and I'm sticking with that.
Election in 2017? do me a favour. I'd like to see odds on May lasting until 2017.
Are you prepared to put your money where your mouth is on Theresa May not lasting until 2017?
There'll be lots of PBers willing to take your money.
Who is this Cameron person people are talking about? If he ever was someone, he has very quickly been forgotten.
There was an interesting article by Sandbrook in Newstatesman over the summer, arguing that (and I paraphrase) debating what way history will remember a PM is mainly nonsense, since most will basically be all but completely forgotten, except by a few parliamentary historians and PBers.
What's pathological gambling? We're investors, not gamblers anyway.
Pathological gambling, like drinking or any other habit is when it starts to adversely impact on social functioning, psychological or physical health.
Gamblers are not risk averse people so I would not be surprised if gamblers had higher rates of other reckless behaviours, including getting into fights.
I know and I've also got the troubling issue of who plays Marcus Antonius, viz a viz Sam Cameron.
To have Marc Anthony (or Octavian for that matter), you need to have a Caesar Party. Where are the Cameroons contesting for power? The obvious Marc Anthony by positioning pre-leadership election would be Osborne but the disparity in popularity between Cameron after his departure and Caesar after his assassination means the dynamics don't really work.
You also have the question of where May retrofits. The best I can come up with is a not-dead Pompey.
The tories will soon realise they have a big problem with May. It could come as soon as today when MPs try to find out whatever the f8ck she believes about Brexit.
The truth, of course is that May believes anything that is seen as popular and successful, and is against anything that doesn;t work initially and is seen as unpopular.
She wants a soft brexit with a hard edge, or should I say a hard Brexit with distinctly soft characteristics. She wants free movement that isn;t THAT free. Or something. Advocators of hard Brexit are wrong, but that doesn;t mean soft brexiters should start celebrating.
Result? total confusion and lack of leadership. In Britain. Abroad. Everywhere.
UKIP jubilant.
When she was elected I posted Theresa May is UKIP's candidate of choice and I'm sticking with that.
Election in 2017? do me a favour. I'd like to see odds on May lasting until 2017.
Are you prepared to put your money where your mouth is on Theresa May not lasting until 2017?
There'll be lots of PBers willing to take your money.
I'm not surprised May seems to be struggling to tell us what Brexit means - the charlatans who ran the Leave campaign couldn't tell us then and they can't now, so why should a reluctant Remainer who happens to be PM?
Who is this Cameron person people are talking about? If he ever was someone, he has very quickly been forgotten.
There was an interesting article by Sandbrook in Newstatesman over the summer, arguing that (and I paraphrase) debating what way history will remember a PM is mainly nonsense, since most will basically be all but completely forgotten, except by a few parliamentary historians and PBers.
Indeed. Most PMs are not remembered at all. Most of the rest are remembered for one thing only, and that negatively. A rare few are remembered for more than one thing and they tend to be the greats.
The London Blitz began 75 years ago on 7 September 1940, and marked the start of 57 consecutive nights of bombing. https://t.co/EqpTNL95nj
Great Pathe footage
My Dad was three when it began. I remember my grandmother telling me about him shaking and crying in the bomb shelter as everything exploded above ground. It's extraordinary to think that it happened to people so close. The idea that both my Dad and grandmother (and the rest of the family) were literally sitting in a hole while bombs rained down on London is just so hard to get my head round. Likewise, the Dad of one of my closest friends lost his entire family at Auschwitz. He managed to get to Britain as part of the kinder transport project and was adopted into a middle class Christian family, but he grew up knowing everyone else he loved had been murdered by the Nazis. These are people I know and they were right in the middle of total horror - as appalling as anything that is happening now. No wonder WW2 is still so vivid in our collective memory and so hard to leave behind.
I know and I've also got the troubling issue of who plays Marcus Antonius, viz a viz Sam Cameron.
To have Marc Anthony (or Octavian for that matter), you need to have a Caesar Party. Where are the Cameroons contesting for power? The obvious Marc Anthony by positioning pre-leadership election would be Osborne but the disparity in popularity between Cameron after his departure and Caesar after his assassination means the dynamics don't really work.
You also have the question of where May retrofits. The best I can come up with is a not-dead Pompey.
Thinking about it a little more, you're too late in the story. Cameron is Crassus, not Caesar.
The London Blitz began 75 years ago on 7 September 1940, and marked the start of 57 consecutive nights of bombing. https://t.co/EqpTNL95nj
Great Pathe footage
My Dad was three when it began. I remember my grandmother telling me about him shaking and crying in the bomb shelter as everything exploded above ground. It's extraordinary to think that it happened to people so close. The idea that both my Dad and grandmother (and the rest of the family) were literally sitting in a hole while bombs rained down on London is just so hard to get my head round. Likewise, the Dad of one of my closest friends lost his entire family at Auschwitz. He managed to get to Britain as part of the kinder transport project and was adopted into a middle class Christian family, but he grew up knowing everyone else he loved had been murdered by the Nazis. These are people I know and they were right in the middle of total horror - as appalling as anything that is happening now. No wonder WW2 is still so vivid in our collective memory and so hard to leave behind.
My Mum's family moved to Wembley after my Grandad was killed in France (my other Grandad was killed in N. Africa in '42). She was then immediately evacuated to the Midlands and came back just in time for the V-1 campaign. WW2 is still sort of 'real' for me in a way that it isn't for my kids.
What's pathological gambling? We're investors, not gamblers anyway.
Pathological gambling, like drinking or any other habit is when it starts to adversely impact on social functioning, psychological or physical health.
Gamblers are not risk averse people so I would not be surprised if gamblers had higher rates of other reckless behaviours, including getting into fights.
I am a risk averse gambler. I only bet on certainties!
Point of information: bumblebees only sting once and then crawl off to die. I would have thought a wasp would be worse* (unless it's the anticipation you are worried about)
* no Keith Vaz jokes please
Err sorry but factually incorrect . Bombus hypnorum - the tree bumble bee - is capable of multiple stings (and they hurt!). Worker honey bees can sting - and if it is a human they are stinging - cannot withdraw the stinger due to its barb and eviscerate themselves and die.They can sting other bees (and wasps) multiple times.
The London Blitz began 75 years ago on 7 September 1940, and marked the start of 57 consecutive nights of bombing. https://t.co/EqpTNL95nj
Great Pathe footage
My Dad was three when it began. I remember my grandmother telling me about him shaking and crying in the bomb shelter as everything exploded above ground. It's extraordinary to think that it happened to people so close. The idea that both my Dad and grandmother (and the rest of the family) were literally sitting in a hole while bombs rained down on London is just so hard to get my head round. Likewise, the Dad of one of my closest friends lost his entire family at Auschwitz. He managed to get to Britain as part of the kinder transport project and was adopted into a middle class Christian family, but he grew up knowing everyone else he loved had been murdered by the Nazis. These are people I know and they were right in the middle of total horror - as appalling as anything that is happening now. No wonder WW2 is still so vivid in our collective memory and so hard to leave behind.
Very, very well put.
I think it will fade as the last generation to remember it directly or through close family pass on. My mother in particular felt enormously strongly (e.g. her cousin starved to death in siege of Leningrad). For me it's already at one remove, and I'm 66. She would never buy a single German item of any kind; I visit the country without a second thought. But we need to at least respect the enormous personal suffering in still-living memory, and respect it in whatever form it comes out- Israel is the obvious case, not just another country but a desperate last refuge, something to keep in mind however strongly we feel their Government may sometimes be inflicting new tragedies.
The London Blitz began 75 years ago on 7 September 1940, and marked the start of 57 consecutive nights of bombing. https://t.co/EqpTNL95nj
Great Pathe footage
My Dad was three when it began. I remember my grandmother telling me about him shaking and crying in the bomb shelter as everything exploded above ground. It's extraordinary to think that it happened to people so close. The idea that both my Dad and grandmother (and the rest of the family) were literally sitting in a hole while bombs rained down on London is just so hard to get my head round. Likewise, the Dad of one of my closest friends lost his entire family at Auschwitz. He managed to get to Britain as part of the kinder transport project and was adopted into a middle class Christian family, but he grew up knowing everyone else he loved had been murdered by the Nazis. These are people I know and they were right in the middle of total horror - as appalling as anything that is happening now. No wonder WW2 is still so vivid in our collective memory and so hard to leave behind.
My Mum's family moved to Wembley after my Grandad was killed in France (my other Grandad was killed in N. Africa in '42). She was then immediately evacuated to the Midlands and came back just in time for the V-1 campaign. WW2 is still sort of 'real' for me in a way that it isn't for my kids.
We lived on Canvey Island, and I can recall sleeping in our shelter every night around 1942. There was a bomb on a house the road next to the school I attended. I can also recall being taken by mother to Oxford Street for shopping .... Bourne & Hollingsworth??? .... and seeing the bomb damage as the train got to Fenchurch Street.
I know and I've also got the troubling issue of who plays Marcus Antonius, viz a viz Sam Cameron.
To have Marc Anthony (or Octavian for that matter), you need to have a Caesar Party. Where are the Cameroons contesting for power? The obvious Marc Anthony by positioning pre-leadership election would be Osborne but the disparity in popularity between Cameron after his departure and Caesar after his assassination means the dynamics don't really work.
You also have the question of where May retrofits. The best I can come up with is a not-dead Pompey.
Thinking about it a little more, you're too late in the story. Cameron is Crassus, not Caesar.
I've been writing that thread for nearly six weeks. It is a struggle, I think it's one of those pieces that ends up on the cutting room floor.
The last thing I want to do is a thread so historically inaccurate that people think Morris Dancer wrote it.
Point of information: bumblebees only sting once and then crawl off to die. I would have thought a wasp would be worse* (unless it's the anticipation you are worried about)
* no Keith Vaz jokes please
Err sorry but factually incorrect . Bombus hypnorum - the tree bumble bee - is capable of multiple stings (and they hurt!). Worker honey bees can sting - and if it is a human they are stinging - cannot withdraw the stinger due to its barb and eviscerate themselves and die.They can sting other bees (and wasps) multiple times.
Who is this Cameron person people are talking about? If he ever was someone, he has very quickly been forgotten.
There was an interesting article by Sandbrook in Newstatesman over the summer, arguing that (and I paraphrase) debating what way history will remember a PM is mainly nonsense, since most will basically be all but completely forgotten, except by a few parliamentary historians and PBers.
Indeed. Most PMs are not remembered at all. Most of the rest are remembered for one thing only, and that negatively. A rare few are remembered for more than one thing and they tend to be the greats.
I reckon four are remembered.
Churchill, WW2 Attlee, NHS Thatcher, First woman Blair, Iraq
That's it. Other notables
Walpole Disraeli Gladstone Lloyd George Eden Chamberlain
Corbyn's only interest is the Labour party and building a mass movement of protest. PMQs are just 30 wasted minutes as far as he is concerned.
He and most of the population.
Yes, including some MPs - I often didn't bother to attend that circus, and other "austere" MPs felt the same way (Frank Field was I think rarely there, for instance). Personally I think the institution actively damages the democratic process by making politics seem to be about one-liners. But TSE is right that most MPs see it as one way to measure their leaders, and often don't realise that most of the wider membership and most voters aren't following it at all.
Corbyn is essentially a backroom boy by nature, and a rabble rouser by desire. Sadly for Labour, not a leader.
Backroom boy for me implies a brainy chap, working behind the scenery but hidden from view in case he scares the children. Don’t think Corbyn quite fits the bill as the boffin sort.
The London Blitz began 75 years ago on 7 September 1940, and marked the start of 57 consecutive nights of bombing. https://t.co/EqpTNL95nj
Great Pathe footage
My Dad was three when it began. I remember my grandmother telling me about him shaking and crying in the bomb shelter as everything exploded above ground. It's extraordinary to think that it happened to people so close. The idea that both my Dad and grandmother (and the rest of the family) were literally sitting in a hole while bombs rained down on London is just so hard to get my head round. Likewise, the Dad of one of my closest friends lost his entire family at Auschwitz. He managed to get to Britain as part of the kinder transport project and was adopted into a middle class Christian family, but he grew up knowing everyone else he loved had been murdered by the Nazis. These are people I know and they were right in the middle of total horror - as appalling as anything that is happening now. No wonder WW2 is still so vivid in our collective memory and so hard to leave behind.
Very, very well put.
I think it will fade as the last generation to remember it directly or through close family pass on. My mother in particular felt enormously strongly (e.g. her cousin starved to death in siege of Leningrad). For me it's already at one remove, and I'm 66. She would never buy a single German item of any kind; I visit the country without a second thought. But we need to at least respect the enormous personal suffering in still-living memory, and respect it in whatever form it comes out- Israel is the obvious case, not just another country but a desperate last refuge, something to keep in mind however strongly we feel their Government may sometimes be inflicting new tragedies.
Yep, I could not agree more. But I think this is something that people in Europe - and inside the Commission especially - have often struggled with when it comes to the UK. On an abstract level you can understand frustration that something that ended over 70 years ago has not yet been left behind, but our experience of WW2 - though not in any way more horrific and appalling - was very different to everyone else's, as was the end of Empire self-questioning and confusion it left behind.
Corbyn is essentially a backroom boy by nature, and a rabble rouser by desire. Sadly for Labour, not a leader.
Backroom boy for me implies a brainy chap, working behind the scenery but hidden from view in case he scares the children. Don’t think Corbyn quite fits the bill as the boffin sort.
Who is this Cameron person people are talking about? If he ever was someone, he has very quickly been forgotten.
There was an interesting article by Sandbrook in Newstatesman over the summer, arguing that (and I paraphrase) debating what way history will remember a PM is mainly nonsense, since most will basically be all but completely forgotten, except by a few parliamentary historians and PBers.
Indeed. Most PMs are not remembered at all. Most of the rest are remembered for one thing only, and that negatively. A rare few are remembered for more than one thing and they tend to be the greats.
I reckon four are remembered.
Churchill, WW2 Attlee, NHS Thatcher, First woman Blair, Iraq
That's it. Other notables
Walpole Disraeli Gladstone Lloyd George Eden Chamberlain
All largely forgotten now.
Good list, but wrong reasoning; the left will be chanting its hatred of FATCHA for centuries after everyone has forgotten what sex she was.
Who is this Cameron person people are talking about? If he ever was someone, he has very quickly been forgotten.
There was an interesting article by Sandbrook in Newstatesman over the summer, arguing that (and I paraphrase) debating what way history will remember a PM is mainly nonsense, since most will basically be all but completely forgotten, except by a few parliamentary historians and PBers.
Indeed. Most PMs are not remembered at all. Most of the rest are remembered for one thing only, and that negatively. A rare few are remembered for more than one thing and they tend to be the greats.
I reckon four are remembered.
Churchill, WW2 Attlee, NHS Thatcher, First woman Blair, Iraq
That's it. Other notables
Walpole Disraeli Gladstone Lloyd George Eden Chamberlain
All largely forgotten now.
The average man on the street barely knows who half the Cabinet are let alone the PM 100 years ago, former PMs matter to historians but few of the rest of us except in exceptional cases like Churchill and even he is fading as a memory with the younger generation
The London Blitz began 75 years ago on 7 September 1940, and marked the start of 57 consecutive nights of bombing. https://t.co/EqpTNL95nj
Great Pathe footage
My Dad was three when it began. I remember my grandmother telling me about him shaking and crying in the bomb shelter as everything exploded above ground. It's extraordinary to think that it happened to people so close. The idea that both my Dad and grandmother (and the rest of the family) were literally sitting in a hole while bombs rained down on London is just so hard to get my head round. Likewise, the Dad of one of my closest friends lost his entire family at Auschwitz. He managed to get to Britain as part of the kinder transport project and was adopted into a middle class Christian family, but he grew up knowing everyone else he loved had been murdered by the Nazis. These are people I know and they were right in the middle of total horror - as appalling as anything that is happening now. No wonder WW2 is still so vivid in our collective memory and so hard to leave behind.
My Mum's family moved to Wembley after my Grandad was killed in France (my other Grandad was killed in N. Africa in '42). She was then immediately evacuated to the Midlands and came back just in time for the V-1 campaign. WW2 is still sort of 'real' for me in a way that it isn't for my kids.
Yep - two vivid memories from my childhood are all the bombsites that still had not been developed and the number of middle aged blokes you saw with one leg or one arm. Both now totally unimaginable to my kids.
When I was a child we had a Telegram from San Francisco from my Great Uncle. It was telling my Nana's family he was alive and had reached the US after being liberated from a Japanese POW camp. They hadn't heard from him in over two years and feared the worst.
When ever any mention of Japan or Japanese goods came on TV my Nana would explode with a tirade of Japanese cities that should have been A Bombed. She denounced the Allies for being so soft on the Japanese by only using two A Bombs.
The tories will soon realise they have a big problem with May. It could come as soon as today when MPs try to find out whatever the f8ck she believes about Brexit.
The truth, of course is that May believes anything that is seen as popular and successful, and is against anything that doesn;t work initially and is seen as unpopular.
She wants a soft brexit with a hard edge, or should I say a hard Brexit with distinctly soft characteristics. She wants free movement that isn;t THAT free. Or something. Advocators of hard Brexit are wrong, but that doesn;t mean soft brexiters should start celebrating.
Result? total confusion and lack of leadership. In Britain. Abroad. Everywhere.
UKIP jubilant.
When she was elected I posted Theresa May is UKIP's candidate of choice and I'm sticking with that.
Election in 2017? do me a favour. I'd like to see odds on May lasting until 2017.
May will do neither soft nor hard BREXIT, what she will agree is migration controls but leaving enough limited free movement to allow limited single market access. That will be enough for the majority of the country however it will annoy hardcore Remainers, particularly the LDs, as well as hard BREXIT backers, particularly UKIP but she can win without the support of either, especially with Labour still in the grips of Corbyn and McDonnell
Yep, I could not agree more. But I think this is something that people in Europe - and inside the Commission especially - have often struggled with when it comes to the UK. On an abstract level you can understand frustration that something that ended over 70 years ago has not yet been left behind, but our experience of WW2 - though not in any way more horrific and appalling - was very different to everyone else's, as was the end of Empire self-questioning and confusion it left behind.
That's interesting but I'm not sure I understand it. The Empire point is clear, but in other respects we suffered severely but vastly less than the Continent, so wouldn't a German or Frenchman feel reasonably baffled if a Brit said it was a major factor for him?
I do think it's still powering disputes in Eastern Europe. My mother (who I'm perhaps making out to be a hysterical character, but really wasn't) actively disliked the Ukraine and the Baltic States for perceived collaboraiton with the Nazis, and would certainly have felt strongly that Crimean separation was a splendid thing, even though she'd been British since 1937. Equally I know Ukrainians who find it hard to move on from historical injustices.
A domestic parallel is maybe Ireland. People on the mainland with a personal recollection of IRA or other attacks still feel strongly. Everyone else is vaguely aware of McGuinness and Adams hobnobbing with the Queen and in the local government and has pretty much moved on. As for the Falklands, hardly anyone feels the slightest resentment towards Argentina these days, except the relatives of lost Servicemen. It's personal loss that leaves lasting bitterness, everything else fades.
The tories will soon realise they have a big problem with May. It could come as soon as today when MPs try to find out whatever the f8ck she believes about Brexit.
The truth, of course is that May believes anything that is seen as popular and successful, and is against anything that doesn;t work initially and is seen as unpopular.
She wants a soft brexit with a hard edge, or should I say a hard Brexit with distinctly soft characteristics. She wants free movement that isn;t THAT free. Or something. Advocators of hard Brexit are wrong, but that doesn;t mean soft brexiters should start celebrating.
Result? total confusion and lack of leadership. In Britain. Abroad. Everywhere.
UKIP jubilant.
When she was elected I posted Theresa May is UKIP's candidate of choice and I'm sticking with that.
Election in 2017? do me a favour. I'd like to see odds on May lasting until 2017.
May will do neither soft nor hard BREXIT, what she will agree is migration controls but leaving enough limited free movement to allow limited single market access. That will be enough for the majority of the country however it will annoy hardcore Remainers, particularly the LDs, as well as hard BREXIT backers, particularly UKIP but she win without the support of either, especially with Labour still in the grips of Corbyn and McDonnell
It will be enough for the majority of the country but how about for the majority of Conservative voters?
@Morris Dancer - Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero, Vespasian, Trajan, Hadrian, Diocletian and Constantine the Great.
Following 1066 And All That principles, I have rejected others for being insufficiently memorable. Domitian, Antoninus Pius, Marcus Aurelius, Septimus Severus, Elegabalus, Julian the Apostate, Theodosius and Honorius are borderline.
When I was a child we had a Telegram from San Francisco from my Great Uncle. It was telling my Nana's family he was alive and had reached the US after being liberated from a Japanese POW camp. They hadn't heard from him in over two years and feared the worst.
When ever any mention of Japan or Japanese goods came on TV my Nana would explode with a tirade of Japanese cities that should have been A Bombed. She denounced the Allies for being so soft on the Japanese by only using two A Bombs.
Friend of mine was, in the 70’s, developing a chain of bakers shops (no, not that one). His father, founder of the business, wouldn’t countenance the buying of Honda etc vans because of the way the POW’s were treated.
It's your banking friend who's talking nonsense. Ermotti did say this. And UBS - in common with all banks - does have various contingency plans for the post-Brexit era, depending on what UK/EU deal is done. And some of those contingency plans do involve having some jobs/legal entities within the EU, if that proves necessary.
Banks will wait but they won't wait for ever. Strategic plans are made; budgets agreed and there is always a lead time for any big decisions, not least because of all the legal, regulatory, capital and other implications of any significant move.
The City of London is not going to decamp en masse to Dublin, Paris or Frankfurt but only a fool would think that Brexit - in whatever form it finally takes - is not going to have some impact, some of it bad and some of it good.
It is also worth noting that banks are continually cutting costs and making redundancies and are doing so now. This is driven by factors other than Brexit. The markets are tough and expensive capital cannot be allocated to marginally profitable or unprofitable activities. All such decisions are made as a result of a variety of factors: strategic repositioning, shareholder demands, market factors etc and that applies as much to the post-Brexit era as it does now.
The tories will soon realise they have a big problem with May. It could come as soon as today when MPs try to find out whatever the f8ck she believes about Brexit.
The truth, of course is that May believes anything that is seen as popular and successful, and is against anything that doesn;t work initially and is seen as unpopular.
She wants a soft brexit with a hard edge, or should I say a hard Brexit with distinctly soft characteristics. She wants free movement that isn;t THAT free. Or something. Advocators of hard Brexit are wrong, but that doesn;t mean soft brexiters should start celebrating.
Result? total confusion and lack of leadership. In Britain. Abroad. Everywhere.
UKIP jubilant.
When she was elected I posted Theresa May is UKIP's candidate of choice and I'm sticking with that.
Election in 2017? do me a favour. I'd like to see odds on May lasting until 2017.
May will do neither soft nor hard BREXIT, what she will agree is migration controls but leaving enough limited free movement to allow limited single market access. That will be enough for the majority of the country however it will annoy hardcore Remainers, particularly the LDs, as well as hard BREXIT backers, particularly UKIP but she win without the support of either, especially with Labour still in the grips of Corbyn and McDonnell
It will be enough for the majority of the country but how about for the majority of Conservative voters?
Over 40% of Conservative voters voted Remain and polling has shown that, unlike UKIP voters a majority of Conservative voters would accept a limited free movement, limited single market access deal. About a third of Tory voters want full, hard BREXIT but about 20% of Labour voters do too so May can take the risk as with Labour about 10% behind the Tories in present polling UKIP threaten them more than the Tories even if slightly more Tories than Labour voters shift to the Kippers
Comments
AirAsia pilot flies to Melbourne instead of Malaysia after navigation error https://t.co/M6VNQMI04k
The author clearly did not get much boy/girl bike shed action. Not enough girls at Eton, methinks.
I've got a Dave is Caesar thread coming up in the next few days.
Is the follow up to this thread from February
Michael Gove could be set to play the role of Brutus to David Cameron’s Caesar
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/02/28/michael-gove-could-be-set-to-play-the-role-of-brutus-to-david-camerons-caesar/
Mr. P, arrogant is not great, but ruthless is a very good attribute for a politician, surely?
Corbyn thus became the first Labour leader to witness a change of Conservative leadership since Blair and only the third since 1957.
Great Pathe footage
Hallmark chippiness and condescension.
And of course, the patent remainer crystal ball. We know the future. We just KNOW.
The disaster awaiting our puny and stupid little island jam full of racists and bigots is coming.
Cameron
Major
Thatcher
Macmillan
All 'Saw off Labour leaders'
Heath
Hague
IDS
Howard
Didn't.
But the biggest failure had to be Cameron himself.
Also, Carney is on live later today. I'm sure the committee will ask him why the monetary action was so aggressive when the signs were already there that it was just a one month shock to sentiment rather than a prolonged downturn,
The truth, of course is that May believes anything that is seen as popular and successful, and is against anything that doesn;t work initially and is seen as unpopular.
She wants a soft brexit with a hard edge, or should I say a hard Brexit with distinctly soft characteristics. She wants free movement that isn;t THAT free. Or something. Advocators of hard Brexit are wrong, but that doesn;t mean soft brexiters should start celebrating.
Result? total confusion and lack of leadership. In Britain. Abroad. Everywhere.
UKIP jubilant.
When she was elected I posted Theresa May is UKIP's candidate of choice and I'm sticking with that.
Election in 2017? do me a favour. I'd like to see odds on May lasting until 2017.
I've noticed a couple of opinion pieces on the BBC website now, always from the left of course.
*wanders off whistling*
There'll be lots of PBers willing to take your money.
The Moggster has it in for Carney.
Gamblers are not risk averse people so I would not be surprised if gamblers had higher rates of other reckless behaviours, including getting into fights.
Fair enough. I meant to write 'until the end of 2017' so I guess I'm looking a bit of an Ass now.
Wonder what I could get on her going next year.
You also have the question of where May retrofits. The best I can come up with is a not-dead Pompey.
BUILD THAT WALL
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3776897/Britain-build-Great-Wall-Calais-Taxpayers-pay-2million-13ft-high-one-mile-long-concrete-barrier-migrants-out.html?ito=social-twitter_dailymailUK
Worker honey bees can sting - and if it is a human they are stinging - cannot withdraw the stinger due to its barb and eviscerate themselves and die.They can sting other bees (and wasps) multiple times.
I think it will fade as the last generation to remember it directly or through close family pass on. My mother in particular felt enormously strongly (e.g. her cousin starved to death in siege of Leningrad). For me it's already at one remove, and I'm 66. She would never buy a single German item of any kind; I visit the country without a second thought. But we need to at least respect the enormous personal suffering in still-living memory, and respect it in whatever form it comes out- Israel is the obvious case, not just another country but a desperate last refuge, something to keep in mind however strongly we feel their Government may sometimes be inflicting new tragedies.
I can also recall being taken by mother to Oxford Street for shopping .... Bourne & Hollingsworth??? .... and seeing the bomb damage as the train got to Fenchurch Street.
The last thing I want to do is a thread so historically inaccurate that people think Morris Dancer wrote it.
Churchill, WW2
Attlee, NHS
Thatcher, First woman
Blair, Iraq
That's it. Other notables
Walpole
Disraeli
Gladstone
Lloyd George
Eden
Chamberlain
All largely forgotten now.
https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/773423424005898241
When ever any mention of Japan or Japanese goods came on TV my Nana would explode with a tirade of Japanese cities that should have been A Bombed. She denounced the Allies for being so soft on the Japanese by only using two A Bombs.
If I was Djokavic's next opponent I'd be searching out for a rabbit's foot and some four leaf clover.
I do think it's still powering disputes in Eastern Europe. My mother (who I'm perhaps making out to be a hysterical character, but really wasn't) actively disliked the Ukraine and the Baltic States for perceived collaboraiton with the Nazis, and would certainly have felt strongly that Crimean separation was a splendid thing, even though she'd been British since 1937. Equally I know Ukrainians who find it hard to move on from historical injustices.
A domestic parallel is maybe Ireland. People on the mainland with a personal recollection of IRA or other attacks still feel strongly. Everyone else is vaguely aware of McGuinness and Adams hobnobbing with the Queen and in the local government and has pretty much moved on. As for the Falklands, hardly anyone feels the slightest resentment towards Argentina these days, except the relatives of lost Servicemen. It's personal loss that leaves lasting bitterness, everything else fades.
Following 1066 And All That principles, I have rejected others for being insufficiently memorable. Domitian, Antoninus Pius, Marcus Aurelius, Septimus Severus, Elegabalus, Julian the Apostate, Theodosius and Honorius are borderline.
Banks will wait but they won't wait for ever. Strategic plans are made; budgets agreed and there is always a lead time for any big decisions, not least because of all the legal, regulatory, capital and other implications of any significant move.
The City of London is not going to decamp en masse to Dublin, Paris or Frankfurt but only a fool would think that Brexit - in whatever form it finally takes - is not going to have some impact, some of it bad and some of it good.
It is also worth noting that banks are continually cutting costs and making redundancies and are doing so now. This is driven by factors other than Brexit. The markets are tough and expensive capital cannot be allocated to marginally profitable or unprofitable activities. All such decisions are made as a result of a variety of factors: strategic repositioning, shareholder demands, market factors etc and that applies as much to the post-Brexit era as it does now.
Do things change that quickly, I suspect not.
Perhaps we're doing a 6.5/10 'OK' and neither spectacularly badly or well
Mr. Eagles is right that Julius Caesar was never emperor.
Mr. Meeks, an interesting list, but I'm surprised you mentioned Honorius amongst the secondary list.
Intriguing Caligula and Nero made everyone's list, just about.
I probably would've guessed [for the general public]: Augustus, Caligula, Constantine. Alas that Aurelian goes unremembered by most.
Nero, for the coffee
Adrian, for his wall (or is that Trump).
That's it.
Exclusive: Chuka Umunna will stand for election as home affairs select committee chair after "strong" support from Labour and Tory MPs.
Mr. Jonathan, Hadrian*.
Poor Antoninus. He built a wall, and nobody remembers it.
PUBLISHED: 23:37, 6 September 2016 | UPDATED: 10:04, 7 September 2016