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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If Corbyn wants to win the confidence of Labour MPs he needs to improve his performances in the House of Commons

Today PMQs returns after the summer recess, Jeremy Corbyn has been doing PMQs for nearly a year, and if anything his performances have become worse. His strategy of asking questions sent in from the public just doesn’t work at PMQs.

Read the full story here

IanB2

First like Mr C himself

RobD

Blast, foiled again!

RobD

OMG! that sounds painful

CarlottaVance

Third! Like SLAB whatever...

dugarbandier

Fifth, like Leif ericsson

RobD

CarlottaVance said:

Third! Like SLAB whatever...

Sorry about that Just doing my job as a good Scottish Tory.

CarlottaVance

While I agree with TSE that PMQs is important for MP morale in the HoC (and is probably most important for that), I have never witnessed "the anguish of a man with a bumblebee trapped under his foreskin" so don't fully appreciate the metaphor.....'Old aged Pensioner caught short at a bus stop waiting for a late bus' I could understand.....

dugarbandier

CarlottaVance said:

While I agree with TSE that PMQs is important for MP morale in the HoC (and is probably most important for that), I have never witnessed "the anguish of a man with a bumblebee trapped under his foreskin" so don't fully appreciate the metaphor.....'Old aged Pensioner caught short at a bus stop waiting for a late bus' I could understand.....

what happens at the S.Yorkshire beekeeping assn. AGM stays at the S.Yorkshire beekeeping assn. AGM

CarlottaVance

dugarbandier said:

CarlottaVance said:

While I agree with TSE that PMQs is important for MP morale in the HoC (and is probably most important for that), I have never witnessed "the anguish of a man with a bumblebee trapped under his foreskin" so don't fully appreciate the metaphor.....'Old aged Pensioner caught short at a bus stop waiting for a late bus' I could understand.....

what happens at the S.Yorkshire beekeeping assn. AGM stays at the S.Yorkshire beekeeping assn. AGM

Fair enough.

Odd way to test the consistency of the honey though......

JohnLoony

Bumblebee?

Are bees (and ants, and termites, and similar things) essentially communists? Or are they brainwashed slaves in a hierarchicalistic brutal military dictatorship?

williamglenn

I hope this is not connected with the Shadow Cabinet having faces like bulldogs chewing wasps.

tlg86

But Corbyn has already seen off one Tory leader, so he must be doing something right....

dr_spyn

Doctor, can you remove the sting but leave the swelling? (Blaster Bates on a bee sting to a male privy member).

YellowSubmarine

The previous thread header was fantastic. My thanks to Harry Hayfield. On Brexit Watch more sabre rattling over the Single Market. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/09/06/ubs-warns-1500-jobs-could-vanish-from-london-after-brexit/

TOPPING

Fpt

david_herdson said:

williamglenn said:

david_herdson said:

williamglenn said:

rcs1000 said:

That being said, this highlights an issue that my own (the Leave side) has. We have constantly argued that the rest of the world was in favour of eliminating trade barriers, and it was only the protectionist EU that was preventing us from having free trade with the rest of the world.

And that's not really true. If you look at the top 10 economies in the world, the only in force free trade agreements between any of the members are the EU (the UK, France, Germany and Italy), and NAFTA (the US and Canada). That's it. The truth is that the US, Japan, China, India, Brazil, etc. are at least as protectionist as the EU. As a trading nation, it's something we need to bear in mind before we cut all ties with the continent.

It looks to me like your side made the wrong choice for the wrong reasons. The sooner this is acknowledged the better our chances of preventing an irreversible mistake.

It's already too late. To hold a second referendum now would simply play into the narrative that the EU always gets what it wants irrespective of national opinion and that their interpretation of 'No' is 'Yes, tomorrow'.

Not necessarily. Remember Boris Johnson's much-mocked position when he first came out for Leave which was characterised as wanting to renew your wedding vows by filing for divorce? With some subtle diplomacy we could end up conducting a rerun of Cameron's renegotiation which leads to a second referendum, or manifesto commitment, on something quite different.

There won't be a second referendum because there won't be any negotiation without A50 and once A50 is signed then the clock is ticking on exit. At that point, there is no Remain option. A referendum would be a choice between accepting the deal and accepting a chaotic exit. I don't think that's a fair question to put to the British people. In any case, if the question of EU membership or not was one marked by far too much scaremongering and dodgy projection, goodness knows what a referendum based on the minutiae of trade negotiations would be like. Dealing with that sort of thing is what parliament is for.

V well put.

foxinsoxuk

JohnLoony said:

Bumblebee?

Are bees (and ants, and termites, and similar things) essentially communists? Or are they brainwashed slaves in a hierarchicalistic brutal military dictatorship?

Same thing surely?

Though I would go for absolute monarchy as their mode of government.

RobD

foxinsoxuk said:

JohnLoony said:

Bumblebee?

Are bees (and ants, and termites, and similar things) essentially communists? Or are they brainwashed slaves in a hierarchicalistic brutal military dictatorship?

Same thing surely?

Though I would go for absolute monarchy as their mode of government.

With many cadet branches.

YellowSubmarine

On topic Corbyn has as little interest in being LotO as he has in being PM. He acts like he's an obscure backbencher who's been unexpectedly given a better seat. As Southam has powerfully observed he doesn't appear desperately bothered about forming a government. Being bad at your job is one thing. Being bad at a job you don't want and doubtful should exist in it's current form is quite another.

YellowSubmarine

Another constitutional innovation. What SoS say at the Dispatch Box is no longer government policy. < http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwk8b77i0

dugarbandier

JohnLoony said:

Bumblebee?

Are bees (and ants, and termites, and similar things) essentially communists? Or are they brainwashed slaves in a hierarchicalistic brutal military dictatorship?

clones, aren't they?

madasafish

JohnLoony said:

Bumblebee?

Are bees (and ants, and termites, and similar things) essentially communists? Or are they brainwashed slaves in a hierarchicalistic brutal military dictatorship?

Modern studies "The Buzz about Bees: Biology of a Superorganism" by Jurgen Tautz
http://tinyurl.com/z5jxlcx

envisage bees as a complex interacting entity. The Queen Bee does not determine what the colony does. The worker bees decide based on internal stimula (is the queen laying well?Are we crowded?) and external ones (time of year, weather, temperature, availability of food). And arrive at a democratic decision.

(I keep honey bees)

williamglenn

YellowSubmarine said:

Another constitutional innovation. What SoS say at the Dispatch Box is no longer government policy. < http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwk8b77i0

Any funny business from Theresa and the people of Haltemprice and Howden will send a strong signal in a gratuitous by-election.

dr_spyn

I lived near the bravest man in Scotland, a kilted beekeeper.

YellowSubmarine

This is way, way off the centre of public opinion but it's largely* coherent and in the best traditions of post WW2 parliamentary liberalism. http://www.libdemvoice.org/tim-farron-to-launch-lib-dem-plan-for-britain-in-europe-51768.html#comment-414903 * I think a second referendum is for the Birds.

PlatoSaid

If you missed it

David Jack
Brilliant @BrookesTimes cartoon on Leicester's very own fat slag #KeithVaz ... and don't forget the poppers! https://t.co/hAXeEUnvTw

Casino_Royale

YellowSubmarine said:

The previous thread header was fantastic. My thanks to Harry Hayfield. On Brexit Watch more sabre rattling over the Single Market. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/09/06/ubs-warns-1500-jobs-could-vanish-from-london-after-brexit/

My banking friend says this is nonsense.

DavidL

I don't think that TM is even close to Cameron as a Parliamentary performer. She is not as light on her feet and doesn't have the natural wit or cruelty required. But she will be prepared and no doubt will have another set piece like the "remind you of anyone" in her first outing. She is also far too good for Corbyn.

The biggest problem with crowdsourcing questions is the lack of follow up. Effective cross examination requires persistence on a particular point until the subject has no choice but to give the answer they do not want to give because the evasions have been stripped away. That requires sharp, pointed questions and above all the ability to listen carefully to the answer and then shape the next question accordingly.

Most of the time Corbyn flits from subject to subject and therefore gets no meaningful answer but even when he does focus he shows no sign of being able to respond to the answer he gets. Instead he proceeds with his prepared question even if it has already been answered looking stupid and ineffective as a result. This comes from a lack of skill, intelligence and training. I see no evidence that he is even interested in changing it.

bigjohnowls

dugarbandier said:

CarlottaVance said:

While I agree with TSE that PMQs is important for MP morale in the HoC (and is probably most important for that), I have never witnessed "the anguish of a man with a bumblebee trapped under his foreskin" so don't fully appreciate the metaphor.....'Old aged Pensioner caught short at a bus stop waiting for a late bus' I could understand.....

what happens at the S.Yorkshire beekeeping assn. AGM stays at the S.Yorkshire beekeeping assn. AGM

Anguish?

One little prick

SquareRoot

williamglenn said:

YellowSubmarine said:

Another constitutional innovation. What SoS say at the Dispatch Box is no longer government policy. < http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwk8b77i0

Any funny business from Theresa and the people of Haltemprice and Howden will send a strong signal in a gratuitous by-election.

Correction

Any funny business from the MP for Haltemprice and Howden and the PM will sack him

DavidL

SquareRoot said:

williamglenn said:

YellowSubmarine said:

Another constitutional innovation. What SoS say at the Dispatch Box is no longer government policy. < http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwk8b77i0

Any funny business from Theresa and the people of Haltemprice and Howden will send a strong signal in a gratuitous by-election.

Correction

Any funny business from the MP for Haltemprice and Howden and the PM will sack him

Surely the most likely outcome is a flounce at some point on some trivia that Davis has decided is a point of principle but which Mrs May does not agree with. A strange appointment surely just for party management purposes.

SquareRoot

DavidL said:

SquareRoot said:

williamglenn said:

YellowSubmarine said:

Another constitutional innovation. What SoS say at the Dispatch Box is no longer government policy. < http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwk8b77i0

Any funny business from Theresa and the people of Haltemprice and Howden will send a strong signal in a gratuitous by-election.

Correction

Any funny business from the MP for Haltemprice and Howden and the PM will sack him

Surely the most likely outcome is a flounce at some point on some trivia that Davis has decided is a point of principle but which Mrs May does not agree with. A strange appointment surely just for party management purposes.

Could it match the flounce by Heseltine?

PlatoSaid

DavidL said:

I don't think that TM is even close to Cameron as a Parliamentary performer. She is not as light on her feet and doesn't have the natural wit or cruelty required. But she will be prepared and no doubt will have another set piece like the "remind you of anyone" in her first outing. She is also far too good for Corbyn.

The biggest problem with crowdsourcing questions is the lack of follow up. Effective cross examination requires persistence on a particular point until the subject has no choice but to give the answer they do not want to give because the evasions have been stripped away. That requires sharp, pointed questions and above all the ability to listen carefully to the answer and then shape the next question accordingly.

Most of the time Corbyn flits from subject to subject and therefore gets no meaningful answer but even when he does focus he shows no sign of being able to respond to the answer he gets. Instead he proceeds with his prepared question even if it has already been answered looking and ineffective as a result. This comes from a lack of skill, intelligence and training. I see no evidence that he is even interested in changing it.

And to think we thought EdM was pretty poor at PMQs re responding to the answer. Several times he asked the next question on the list as if it hadn't been properly answered with a single sentence.

DavidL

SquareRoot said:

DavidL said:

SquareRoot said:

williamglenn said:

YellowSubmarine said:

Another constitutional innovation. What SoS say at the Dispatch Box is no longer government policy. < http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwk8b77i0

Any funny business from Theresa and the people of Haltemprice and Howden will send a strong signal in a gratuitous by-election.

Correction

Any funny business from the MP for Haltemprice and Howden and the PM will sack him

Surely the most likely outcome is a flounce at some point on some trivia that Davis has decided is a point of principle but which Mrs May does not agree with. A strange appointment surely just for party management purposes.

Could it match the flounce by Heseltine?

No. Heseltine was a serious politician well worth listening to even when you did not agree. Davis....not so much.

TOPPING

DavidL said:

I don't think that TM is even close to Cameron as a Parliamentary performer. She is not as light on her feet and doesn't have the natural wit or cruelty required. But she will be prepared and no doubt will have another set piece like the "remind you of anyone" in her first outing. She is also far too good for Corbyn.

The biggest problem with crowdsourcing questions is the lack of follow up. Effective cross examination requires persistence on a particular point until the subject has no choice but to give the answer they do not want to give because the evasions have been stripped away. That requires sharp, pointed questions and above all the ability to listen carefully to the answer and then shape the next question accordingly.

Most of the time Corbyn flits from subject to subject and therefore gets no meaningful answer but even when he does focus he shows no sign of being able to respond to the answer he gets. Instead he proceeds with his prepared question even if it has already been answered looking stupid and ineffective as a result. This comes from a lack of skill, intelligence and training. I see no evidence that he is even interested in changing it.

EdM's best performance at PMQs was when he relentlessly focused on SDRT exemption, linking it to hedge fund support for the Cons.

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-31131669

Not sure what good it did him but it was excellent PMQ technique.

YellowSubmarine

DavidL said:

SquareRoot said:

williamglenn said:

YellowSubmarine said:

Another constitutional innovation. What SoS say at the Dispatch Box is no longer government policy. < http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwk8b77i0

Any funny business from Theresa and the people of Haltemprice and Howden will send a strong signal in a gratuitous by-election.

Correction

Any funny business from the MP for Haltemprice and Howden and the PM will sack him

Surely the most likely outcome is a flounce at some point on some trivia that Davis has decided is a point of principle but which Mrs May does not agree with. A strange appointment surely just for party management purposes.

I see we already have a ' chance ' but clearly staged photo of the three Brexiteers on the steps of Downing St. With of course Boris in the centre framed by the Black Door. It's all already started.

PlatoSaid

Jeremy 4 PM
At 4pm Jeremy will launch his environment manifesto in which he will pledge 300,000 new green jobs in energy sector https://t.co/rcQGg76trp

malcolmg

FPT
CarlottaVance said:

Well, well, well… Nicola Sturgeon’s devolved government in Scotland will not – after all – introduce a bill for a second referendum on Scottish independence. .....

To satisfy her supporters who want another immediate shot at it, the First Minister had to try to make it look as though she is not doing what she is doing, which is shelving the referendum because of the likelihood that she would lose. After a summer of giving the same speech, threatening independence imminently in the wake of the Brexit vote, she now says:

“We will consult on a draft referendum bill so that it is ready for immediate introduction if we conclude that independence is the best or only way to protect Scotland’s interests.”

That is quite funny. Consulting on a draft is the government equivalent of a cash-strapped would-be tourist ordering a bunch of glossy holiday brochures and saying “we might go for St Tropez this year.”

http://reaction.life/nicola-sturgeon-sensibly-runs-away-second-scottish-independence-referendum/?ts

LOL, your usual twisted and bent view on the topic. She has never at any time said she was calling a referendum, she said she was considering options in Scotland's interests due to it being dragged out of EU against its will. Not quite how you portray it. It is there if required.

DavidL

PlatoSaid said:

DavidL said:

I don't think that TM is even close to Cameron as a Parliamentary performer. She is not as light on her feet and doesn't have the natural wit or cruelty required. But she will be prepared and no doubt will have another set piece like the "remind you of anyone" in her first outing. She is also far too good for Corbyn.

The biggest problem with crowdsourcing questions is the lack of follow up. Effective cross examination requires persistence on a particular point until the subject has no choice but to give the answer they do not want to give because the evasions have been stripped away. That requires sharp, pointed questions and above all the ability to listen carefully to the answer and then shape the next question accordingly.

Most of the time Corbyn flits from subject to subject and therefore gets no meaningful answer but even when he does focus he shows no sign of being able to respond to the answer he gets. Instead he proceeds with his prepared question even if it has already been answered looking and ineffective as a result. This comes from a lack of skill, intelligence and training. I see no evidence that he is even interested in changing it.

And to think we thought EdM was pretty poor at PMQs re responding to the answer. Several times he asked the next question on the list as if it hadn't been properly answered with a single sentence.

Listening really is the key. Its harder than it sounds and requires intense concentration. It is hard enough in a court. In a very noisy Commons it must require a rare skill. Corbyn and Ed don't have it.

Charles

Point of information: bumblebees only sting once and then crawl off to die. I would have thought a wasp would be worse* (unless it's the anticipation you are worried about)

* no Keith Vaz jokes please

SquareRoot

PlatoSaid said:

Jeremy 4 PM
At 4pm Jeremy will launch his environment manifesto in which he will pledge 300,000 new green jobs in energy sector https://t.co/rcQGg76trp

Fantasy politics

AlastairMeeks

DavidL said:

I don't think that TM is even close to Cameron as a Parliamentary performer. She is not as light on her feet and doesn't have the natural wit or cruelty required. But she will be prepared and no doubt will have another set piece like the "remind you of anyone" in her first outing. She is also far too good for Corbyn.

The biggest problem with crowdsourcing questions is the lack of follow up. Effective cross examination requires persistence on a particular point until the subject has no choice but to give the answer they do not want to give because the evasions have been stripped away. That requires sharp, pointed questions and above all the ability to listen carefully to the answer and then shape the next question accordingly.

Most of the time Corbyn flits from subject to subject and therefore gets no meaningful answer but even when he does focus he shows no sign of being able to respond to the answer he gets. Instead he proceeds with his prepared question even if it has already been answered looking stupid and ineffective as a result. This comes from a lack of skill, intelligence and training. I see no evidence that he is even interested in changing it.

I doubt that Jeremy Corbyn's has ever asked himself the question "what am I trying to achieve from this line of questioning?". If he did, he would know how he needed to follow up.

Even for those uninterested in Parliament, Prime Minister's Questions presents opportunities.

SquareRoot

malcolmg said:

FPT
CarlottaVance said:

Well, well, well… Nicola Sturgeon’s devolved government in Scotland will not – after all – introduce a bill for a second referendum on Scottish independence. .....

To satisfy her supporters who want another immediate shot at it, the First Minister had to try to make it look as though she is not doing what she is doing, which is shelving the referendum because of the likelihood that she would lose. After a summer of giving the same speech, threatening independence imminently in the wake of the Brexit vote, she now says:

“We will consult on a draft referendum bill so that it is ready for immediate introduction if we conclude that independence is the best or only way to protect Scotland’s interests.”

That is quite funny. Consulting on a draft is the government equivalent of a cash-strapped would-be tourist ordering a bunch of glossy holiday brochures and saying “we might go for St Tropez this year.”

http://reaction.life/nicola-sturgeon-sensibly-runs-away-second-scottish-independence-referendum/?ts

LOL, your usual twisted and bent view on the topic. She has never at any time said she was calling a referendum, she said she was considering options in Scotland's interests due to it being dragged out of EU against its will. Not quite how you portray it. It is there if required.

correction.. Its there if required as a dead cat , to deflect away from anyone getting to grips with the dire state of Scotland now the oil money has gone.

DavidL

TOPPING said:

DavidL said:

I don't think that TM is even close to Cameron as a Parliamentary performer. She is not as light on her feet and doesn't have the natural wit or cruelty required. But she will be prepared and no doubt will have another set piece like the "remind you of anyone" in her first outing. She is also far too good for Corbyn.

The biggest problem with crowdsourcing questions is the lack of follow up. Effective cross examination requires persistence on a particular point until the subject has no choice but to give the answer they do not want to give because the evasions have been stripped away. That requires sharp, pointed questions and above all the ability to listen carefully to the answer and then shape the next question accordingly.

Most of the time Corbyn flits from subject to subject and therefore gets no meaningful answer but even when he does focus he shows no sign of being able to respond to the answer he gets. Instead he proceeds with his prepared question even if it has already been answered looking stupid and ineffective as a result. This comes from a lack of skill, intelligence and training. I see no evidence that he is even interested in changing it.

EdM's best performance at PMQs was when he relentlessly focused on SDRT exemption, linking it to hedge fund support for the Cons.

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-31131669

Not sure what good it did him but it was excellent PMQ technique.

I agree. That was a good example of how it should be done. As you say, even when it is done well it doesn't butter many parsnips but I agree with TSE that it does cheer up your MPs.

Blue_rog

I think that rather than a bumblebee trapped under his foreskin he is like someone that has used a hair removal product on his sensitive bits

NSFW

http://metro.co.uk/2016/05/05/this-has-got-to-be-the-weirdest-hair-removal-cream-review-you-will-ever-read-5858294/

foxinsoxuk

PlatoSaid said:

If you missed it

David Jack
Brilliant @BrookesTimes cartoon on Leicester's very own fat slag #KeithVaz ... and don't forget the poppers! https://t.co/hAXeEUnvTw

I knew Vaz was travelling on the other bus when the expenses scandal broke.

What did he claim for? Not Moat cleaning or a duck house or even a trouser press, no he spent our money on 22 silk cushions and other soft furnishings. A dead giveaway:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1180237/MPs-EXPENSES-Keith-Vaz-London-pad-silk-cushions.html

DavidL

SquareRoot said:

malcolmg said:

FPT
CarlottaVance said:

Well, well, well… Nicola Sturgeon’s devolved government in Scotland will not – after all – introduce a bill for a second referendum on Scottish independence. .....

To satisfy her supporters who want another immediate shot at it, the First Minister had to try to make it look as though she is not doing what she is doing, which is shelving the referendum because of the likelihood that she would lose. After a summer of giving the same speech, threatening independence imminently in the wake of the Brexit vote, she now says:

“We will consult on a draft referendum bill so that it is ready for immediate introduction if we conclude that independence is the best or only way to protect Scotland’s interests.”

That is quite funny. Consulting on a draft is the government equivalent of a cash-strapped would-be tourist ordering a bunch of glossy holiday brochures and saying “we might go for St Tropez this year.”

http://reaction.life/nicola-sturgeon-sensibly-runs-away-second-scottish-independence-referendum/?ts

LOL, your usual twisted and bent view on the topic. She has never at any time said she was calling a referendum, she said she was considering options in Scotland's interests due to it being dragged out of EU against its will. Not quite how you portray it. It is there if required.

correction.. Its there if required as a dead cat , to deflect away from anyone getting to grips with the dire state of Scotland now the oil money has gone.

The Scottish government now has the advantage of a competent opposition which will limit their mistakes and highlight problems at an early stage where the damage is minimal. Unfortunately the government in Westminster does not have this important advantage. Given that they are dealing with more serious matters this should concern us all.

foxinsoxuk

PlatoSaid said:

Jeremy 4 PM
At 4pm Jeremy will launch his environment manifesto in which he will pledge 300,000 new green jobs in energy sector https://t.co/rcQGg76trp

The first step in any such plan is to explain how he plans to gain 100 marginal seats at the next election so as to form a government. Without such a plan his words are as worthwhile as a Neasden Poly SU resolution on the Palestine question.

foxinsoxuk

Charles said:

Point of information: bumblebees only sting once and then crawl off to die. I would have thought a wasp would be worse* (unless it's the anticipation you are worried about)

* no Keith Vaz jokes please

Perhaps a vampire catfish would be worse still up the urethra:

http://sickontheroad.com/2011/03/02/7-terrifying-small-organisms-that-can-ruin-your-trip/

DavidL

Blue_rog said:

I think that rather than a bumblebee trapped under his foreskin he is like someone that has used a hair removal product on his sensitive bits

NSFW

http://metro.co.uk/2016/05/05/this-has-got-to-be-the-weirdest-hair-removal-cream-review-you-will-ever-read-5858294/

Very funny.

CarlottaVance

malcolmg said:

She has never at any time said she was calling a referendum, she said she was considering options in Scotland's interests due to it being dragged out of EU against its will. Not quite how you portray it. It is there if required.

Scotland's first minister has said a second independence referendum is "highly likely" after the UK voted to leave the EU.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36621030

So its gone from 'highly likely' to 'consultations about a draft bill'.

You think those are the same?

LOL, usual bitter & twisted thwarted Nat....etc etc....

DecrepitJohnL

PlatoSaid said:

If you missed it

David Jack
Brilliant @BrookesTimes cartoon on Leicester's very own fat slag #KeithVaz ... and don't forget the poppers! https://t.co/hAXeEUnvTw

Are Times readers in general familiar with Viz? It is a good cartoon but is it a good cartoon for the Times?

YellowSubmarine

Anecdata and analysis from an ex Diplomat. Worth considering in the context of the Downing St 'clarification ' of the Brexit Secretary's Dispatch Box statement. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/06/theresa-mays-frosty-reception-at-the-g20-shows-she-cannot-stonew/

Scott_P

Back of the queue?

@GdnPolitics: No free trade deal until Brexit settled, says Australian minister https://t.co/1hUEfwwhrc

Mortimer

foxinsoxuk said:

PlatoSaid said:

Jeremy 4 PM
At 4pm Jeremy will launch his environment manifesto in which he will pledge 300,000 new green jobs in energy sector https://t.co/rcQGg76trp

The first step in any such plan is to explain how he plans to gain 100 marginal seats at the next election so as to form a government. Without such a plan his words are as worthwhile as a Neasden Poly SU resolution on the Palestine question.

Putting the phrase 'winning here' on everything was LD strategy for quite a while...

weejonnie

Scott_P said:

Back of the queue?

@GdnPolitics: No free trade deal until Brexit settled, says Australian minister https://t.co/1hUEfwwhrc

Hardly surprising as we're not allowed to enter any individual trade deals whilst being members of the EU.

Moses_

I wonder what the female equivalent of the bumble bee quote would be?

Thank goodness Mrs May is much better a parliamentarian and no doubt also at PMQ so we don't have to find out.

PlatoSaid

Deacon on UB40

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/06/jeremy-corbyn-held-a-press-conference-with-ub40-and-i-have-no-id/

Moses_

CarlottaVance said:

dugarbandier said:

CarlottaVance said:

While I agree with TSE that PMQs is important for MP morale in the HoC (and is probably most important for that), I have never witnessed "the anguish of a man with a bumblebee trapped under his foreskin" so don't fully appreciate the metaphor.....'Old aged Pensioner caught short at a bus stop waiting for a late bus' I could understand.....

what happens at the S.Yorkshire beekeeping assn. AGM stays at the S.Yorkshire beekeeping assn. AGM

Fair enough.

Odd way to test the consistency of the honey though......

Could one say that Corbyn had been ....metaphorically speaking ......"caught in a honey trap?"

CD13

The Tories used to come over as being like old-fashioned parents ... annoyingly complacent, conservative with a small 'c' too and stuck in a rut. The Labour party liked to think of itself as being the clever teenager, sometimes wild and extravagant, and sometimes a bit nerdy. "Look, Dad, I've worked out how we can have a good time and save money too."

Harold Wilson personified it, and Blair did too. "You need to get up to date, parents."

With Jezza in control, they're reverted to Kevin, the sulky teenager. He gets up at midday and moans continually. The breakfast cereal is the wrong sort, no one knows anything except for him, it's really annoying. No one ever listens to his wild, impractical ideas and it's all so unfair.

It attracts a devoted following but it's limited, and they're always likely to fall out among themselves. A bad look, and it spells electoral doom.

Morris_Dancer

Good morning, everyone.

Lucky Corbyn didn't have to sit on the floor, in the picture above.

Moses_

YellowSubmarine said:

The previous thread header was fantastic. My thanks to Harry Hayfield. On Brexit Watch more sabre rattling over the Single Market. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/09/06/ubs-warns-1500-jobs-could-vanish-from-london-after-brexit/

Operative word is "could". Anyway using the terms by those who wished to remain

"It's too early to tell we won't really know until the next decade / 10 years time / children have grandchildren**

** delete whatever timeline does not make the point made more believable.

kle4

Totally off topic, and maybe it's because I don't go to clubs very often, but I'm really struggling to see the outrage here.

People take drugs openly in a club, people died, council takes away its licence. But it's ok, it was popular so deaths shouldn't matter?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/37293705/culture-of-drugs-at-fabric-causes-licence-to-be-revoked

PlatoSaid

Bloody Tory rag

"The Labour leadership contest is all but done and dusted. Owen Smith must know it. Jeremy Corbyn certainly knows it. Which is why he is now more than happy to incorporate some of his hobbies into his touring schedule. Call it some light recreational campaigning. Today music. Tomorrow horticulture.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/06/jeremy-corbyn-ub40-dullest-music-qa-of-all-time-hits-bum-note?CMP=share_btn_tw

SouthamObserver

Corbyn is not capable of improving his debating ability or performance at PMQs, just as he is not capable of providing leadership - he is instinctively non-collegiate and unable to engage beyond his own circle. Throw in his assorted baggage, his tin ear for PR and his unwillingness to reach out to those who do not already agree with him, and you have the seeds of his own destruction.

SimonStClare

Tis official, PB has become a 6th form common room on the first day back at school.

Fenster

kle4 said:

Totally off topic, and maybe it's because I don't go to clubs very often, but I'm really struggling to see the outrage here.

People take drugs openly in a club, people died, council takes away its licence. But it's ok, it was popular so deaths shouldn't matter?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/37293705/culture-of-drugs-at-fabric-causes-licence-to-be-revoked

Far far more people die or get hurt through drinking tham they do through drugs.

If ecstasy was legalised, I'd hazard a guess that deaths from it would be close to zero.

Innocent_Abroad

CD13 said:

The Tories used to come over as being like old-fashioned parents ... annoyingly complacent, conservative with a small 'c' too and stuck in a rut. The Labour party liked to think of itself as being the clever teenager, sometimes wild and extravagant, and sometimes a bit nerdy. "Look, Dad, I've worked out how we can have a good time and save money too."

Harold Wilson personified it, and Blair did too. "You need to get up to date, parents."

With Jezza in control, they're reverted to Kevin, the sulky teenager. He gets up at midday and moans continually. The breakfast cereal is the wrong sort, no one knows anything except for him, it's really annoying. No one ever listens to his wild, impractical ideas and it's all so unfair.

It attracts a devoted following but it's limited, and they're always likely to fall out among themselves. A bad look, and it spells electoral doom.

JC - and, more to the point, those who voted him into where he is - couldn't care less. They don't see the HoC as capable of producing socialism (and since it hasn't after all these years, surely they've got that much right). Indeed, if they weren't so mutually quarrelsome they might well go into the next election on a Sinn Fein style absenteeist platform

SouthamObserver

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

I don't think that TM is even close to Cameron as a Parliamentary performer. She is not as light on her feet and doesn't have the natural wit or cruelty required. But she will be prepared and no doubt will have another set piece like the "remind you of anyone" in her first outing. She is also far too good for Corbyn.

The biggest problem with crowdsourcing questions is the lack of follow up. Effective cross examination requires persistence on a particular point until the subject has no choice but to give the answer they do not want to give because the evasions have been stripped away. That requires sharp, pointed questions and above all the ability to listen carefully to the answer and then shape the next question accordingly.

Most of the time Corbyn flits from subject to subject and therefore gets no meaningful answer but even when he does focus he shows no sign of being able to respond to the answer he gets. Instead he proceeds with his prepared question even if it has already been answered looking stupid and ineffective as a result. This comes from a lack of skill, intelligence and training. I see no evidence that he is even interested in changing it.

I doubt that Jeremy Corbyn's has ever asked himself the question "what am I trying to achieve from this line of questioning?". If he did, he would know how he needed to follow up.

Even for those uninterested in Parliament, Prime Minister's Questions presents opportunities.

Corbyn's only interest is the Labour party and building a mass movement of protest. PMQs are just 30 wasted minutes as far as he is concerned.

kle4

Fenster said:

kle4 said:

Totally off topic, and maybe it's because I don't go to clubs very often, but I'm really struggling to see the outrage here.

People take drugs openly in a club, people died, council takes away its licence. But it's ok, it was popular so deaths shouldn't matter?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/37293705/culture-of-drugs-at-fabric-causes-licence-to-be-revoked

Far far more people die or get hurt through drinking tham they do through drugs.

If ecstasy was legalised, I'd hazard a guess that deaths from it would be close to zero.

You misunderstand the reason for my lack of outrage. I'd support drug liberalisation. But we don't have it yet. Everyone knows people who take drugs and places where it happens a lot, the key is it mustn't cause a problem which means authorities cannot look the other way.

We all speed on the motorway. But if I cause an accident while going too fast I'll still expect to be punished. A lot of people take drugs in clubs no doubt, but if people die and, evidently, the place cannot even pretend people won't be taking drugs, it has to be shut.

I don't support shutting such places simply because people take drugs there. I just feel the outrage in the article is silly since it looks like the council had no option, it'd be like smelling a bit like weed while walking past a police officer and they decide to ignore it, it's so trivial, vs dropping a 10kg bag in their lap. They have to arrest you then.

PlatoSaid

Asa Bennett
Ken Livingstone is back on TV again, asking people don't judge politicians on "one silly interlude" in their career https://t.co/gKsprCa6ec

SouthamObserver

YellowSubmarine said:

Anecdata and analysis from an ex Diplomat. Worth considering in the context of the Downing St 'clarification ' of the Brexit Secretary's Dispatch Box statement. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/06/theresa-mays-frosty-reception-at-the-g20-shows-she-cannot-stonew/

This is the key:

“You Brits voted Brexit because you wanted to be taken seriously as an independent world power. Fine. Now, own it. Be serious. That means getting on with it.”

And the government cannot do that because it has no idea how to achieve what it wants - which is to keep all the benefits of being in the single market but to have full control over immigration.

It struck me this morning that the grammar school business is another Theresa may sop to the Tory right - a way to buy credit for that time when triggering A50 is no longer avoidable and the reality of the trade-offs we will have to make hit home. I expect other moves right over the coming months for the same reason. And none of it will work. A betrayed Tory EU-obsessive is an uncontrollable beast.

kle4

PlatoSaid said:

Asa Bennett
Ken Livingstone is back on TV again, asking people don't judge politicians on "one silly interlude" in their career https://t.co/gKsprCa6ec

He is a funny one. It's actually great advice to apply to everyone of course, only arseholes misuse it to apply to a pattern of behaviour not one interlude, and serious errors not just silliness.

kle4

I feel like Harry's thread deserves a rerun. Not that advice to Corbyn is not fun.

TonyE

TOPPING said:

Fpt

david_herdson said:

williamglenn said:

david_herdson said:

williamglenn said:

rcs1000 said:

That being said, this highlights an issue that my own (the Leave side) has. We have constantly argued that the rest of the world was in favour of eliminating trade barriers, and it was only the protectionist EU that was preventing us from having free trade with the rest of the world.

And that's not really true. If you look at the top 10 economies in the world, the only in force free trade agreements between any of the members are the EU (the UK, France, Germany and Italy), and NAFTA (the US and Canada). That's it. The truth is that the US, Japan, China, India, Brazil, etc. are at least as protectionist as the EU. As a trading nation, it's something we need to bear in mind before we cut all ties with the continent.

It looks to me like your side made the wrong choice for the wrong reasons. The sooner this is acknowledged the better our chances of preventing an irreversible mistake.

It's already too late. To hold a second referendum now would simply play into the narrative that the EU always gets what it wants irrespective of national opinion and that their interpretation of 'No' is 'Yes, tomorrow'.

Not necessarily. Remember Boris Johnson's much-mocked position when he first came out for Leave which was characterised as wanting to renew your wedding vows by filing for divorce? With some subtle diplomacy we could end up conducting a rerun of Cameron's renegotiation which leads to a second referendum, or manifesto commitment, on something quite different.

There won't be a second referendum because there won't be any negotiation without A50 and once A50 is signed then the clock is ticking on exit. At that point, there is no Remain option. A referendum would be a choice between accepting the deal and accepting a chaotic exit. I don't think that's a fair question to put to the British people. In any case, if the question of EU membership or not was one marked by far too much scaremongering and dodgy projection, goodness knows what a referendum based on the minutiae of trade negotiations would be like. Dealing with that sort of thing is what parliament is for.

V well put.

IF that's the case then isn't the same issue practically true of putting the deal before a parliament who might scupper it on the same misguided idea that they can go back to the EU and turn back the clock on Art 50?

dr_spyn

kle4 said:

I feel like Harry's thread deserves a rerun. Not that advice to Corbyn is not fun.

It was lucid, and very informative. Harry I salute you.

not_on_fire

weejonnie said:

Scott_P said:

Back of the queue?

@GdnPolitics: No free trade deal until Brexit settled, says Australian minister https://t.co/1hUEfwwhrc

Hardly surprising as we're not allowed to enter any individual trade deals whilst being members of the EU.

But we were told that the Aussies were desperate to do a deal and it would all be wrapped up by Tuesday or something.

kle4

not_on_fire said:

weejonnie said:

Scott_P said:

Back of the queue?

@GdnPolitics: No free trade deal until Brexit settled, says Australian minister https://t.co/1hUEfwwhrc

Hardly surprising as we're not allowed to enter any individual trade deals whilst being members of the EU.

But we were told that the Aussies were desperate to do a deal and it would all be wrapped up by Tuesday or something.

Both campaigns were crap.

MarqueeMark

PlatoSaid said:

If you missed it

David Jack
Brilliant @BrookesTimes cartoon on Leicester's very own fat slag #KeithVaz ... and don't forget the poppers! https://t.co/hAXeEUnvTw

I wonder if any readers can suggest some Top Tips for Mr. Vaz....

PlatoSaid

Tim Marshall 2p on Merkel

http://www.thewhatandthewhy.com/mutti-merkels-not-finished-yet/

CarlottaVance

dr_spyn said:

kle4 said:

I feel like Harry's thread deserves a rerun. Not that advice to Corbyn is not fun.

It was lucid, and very informative. Harry I salute you.

Seconded - positively magisterial...

Jonathan

I feel sorry for the bumblebee.

MarqueeMark

Anecdotally, people are getting REALLY pissed off about NHS stuff like this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37288843

dr_spyn

SouthamObserver said:

Corbyn is not capable of improving his debating ability or performance at PMQs, just as he is not capable of providing leadership - he is instinctively non-collegiate and unable to engage beyond his own circle. Throw in his assorted baggage, his tin ear for PR and his unwillingness to reach out to those who do not already agree with him, and you have the seeds of his own destruction.

When I heard him speak a couple of weeks ago, it was long history of dull anecdotes about odd far left causes from the 1960s and 70s. The world has moved on, yet Corbyn looks back to a pre-Thatcher world of collective bargaining by a heavily unionised working class. If he is lucky he might hit 80 before the electorate sends him to Downing St, but how on earth Labour members thought he would win over the public mystifies me.

tyson

Ouchhhhhhhh. And ouchhhhhhhhh again.

dugarbandier

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/ub40-ali-campbells-band-settle-11074819

So UB40 are having a court dispute over who gets to use the name of a once highly popular group....

nunu

JohnLoony said:

Bumblebee?

Are bees (and ants, and termites, and similar things) essentially communists? Or are they brainwashed slaves in a hierarchicalistic brutal military dictatorship?

JohnLoony said:

Bumblebee?

Are bees (and ants, and termites, and similar things) essentially communists? Or are they brainwashed slaves in a hierarchicalistic brutal military dictatorship?

They are brainwashed until the Queen no longer gives off her controlling pheromones, and they turn on her and kill her.

CarlottaVance

New girl did ok:

As first days go at an international school, the G20 passed off alright for the new pupil.

Theresa May met all the right people, the language differences did not trouble her and she refused to allow the big boys to bully her behind the bike sheds. The prime minister held her own.

At the end of the two days, she had managed to speak to almost all the world leaders at the summit. They were interested because she was an unknown quantity and that rare beast, a European leader who is likely to be around for a while....

...The message in Hangzhou was clear: Theresa May is her own woman, the Cameron era is over.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37289673

Lansdale should know that May's position in the group photo had nowt to do with 'Britain's diminished status' and everything to do with how long she has been in the job.....

Jonathan

How did the bumblebee get there. Does the Daily Mirror have another exclusive?

Maybe the bumblebee and the pig could form some kind of support group.

dugarbandier

10yrs time could be the 80s classic tour feat. Tony Hadlee, Captain Sensible and The Labour Party...

john_zims

@YellowSubmarine

'This is way, way off the centre of public opinion but it's largely* coherent and in the best traditions of post WW2 parliamentary liberalism. http://www.libdemvoice.org/tim-farron-to-launch-lib-dem-plan-for-britain-in-europe-51768.html#comment-414903 * I think a second referendum is for the Birds.'

Lib Dem voice that has more threads than comments,that's really representative.

Alistair

SouthamObserver said:

YellowSubmarine said:

Anecdata and analysis from an ex Diplomat. Worth considering in the context of the Downing St 'clarification ' of the Brexit Secretary's Dispatch Box statement. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/06/theresa-mays-frosty-reception-at-the-g20-shows-she-cannot-stonew/

This is the key:

“You Brits voted Brexit because you wanted to be taken seriously as an independent world power. Fine. Now, own it. Be serious. That means getting on with it.”

And the government cannot do that because it has no idea how to achieve what it wants - which is to keep all the benefits of being in the single market but to have full control over immigration.

It struck me this morning that the grammar school business is another Theresa may sop to the Tory right - a way to buy credit for that time when triggering A50 is no longer avoidable and the reality of the trade-offs we will have to make hit home. I expect other moves right over the coming months for the same reason. And none of it will work. A betrayed Tory EU-obsessive is an uncontrollable beast.

I don't think the Grammar school stuff is as calculated as that, I think may just likes grammar schools regardless of the evidence.

DecrepitJohnL

kle4 said:

I feel like Harry's thread deserves a rerun. Not that advice to Corbyn is not fun.

Better still, Harry's thread and the series of which it is the first, on the new boundaries, should have permanent links from the home page.

Alistair

Fun US election fact, 30% of voters made use of early voting in the last two presidential elections.

Early voting starts soon in some states.

not_on_fire

SouthamObserver said:

YellowSubmarine said:

Anecdata and analysis from an ex Diplomat. Worth considering in the context of the Downing St 'clarification ' of the Brexit Secretary's Dispatch Box statement. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/06/theresa-mays-frosty-reception-at-the-g20-shows-she-cannot-stonew/

This is the key:

“You Brits voted Brexit because you wanted to be taken seriously as an independent world power. Fine. Now, own it. Be serious. That means getting on with it.”

And the government cannot do that because it has no idea how to achieve what it wants - which is to keep all the benefits of being in the single market but to have full control over immigration.

It struck me this morning that the grammar school business is another Theresa may sop to the Tory right - a way to buy credit for that time when triggering A50 is no longer avoidable and the reality of the trade-offs we will have to make hit home. I expect other moves right over the coming months for the same reason. And none of it will work. A betrayed Tory EU-obsessive is an uncontrollable beast.

SouthamObserver said:

YellowSubmarine said:

Anecdata and analysis from an ex Diplomat. Worth considering in the context of the Downing St 'clarification ' of the Brexit Secretary's Dispatch Box statement. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/06/theresa-mays-frosty-reception-at-the-g20-shows-she-cannot-stonew/

This is the key:

“You Brits voted Brexit because you wanted to be taken seriously as an independent world power. Fine. Now, own it. Be serious. That means getting on with it.”

And the government cannot do that because it has no idea how to achieve what it wants - which is to keep all the benefits of being in the single market but to have full control over immigration.

It .

At least one, possibly both of rcs100 and Plato are going to be fuming at

PlatoSaid said:

Bloody Tory rag

"The Labour leadership contest is all but done and dusted. Owen Smith must know it. Jeremy Corbyn certainly knows it. Which is why he is now more than happy to incorporate some of his hobbies into his touring schedule. Call it some light recreational campaigning. Today music. Tomorrow horticulture.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/06/jeremy-corbyn-ub40-dullest-music-qa-of-all-time-hits-bum-note?CMP=share_btn_tw

Judging from the comments on CIF, Corbynistas have really turned against the Graun due to its failure to offer uncritical support of Corbyn. It's fun to watch.

PlatoSaid

Alistair said:

Fun US election fact, 30% of voters made use of early voting in the last two presidential elections.

Early voting starts soon in some states.

Hasn't NC already begun?

weejonnie

kle4 said:

Totally off topic, and maybe it's because I don't go to clubs very often, but I'm really struggling to see the outrage here.

People take drugs openly in a club, people died, council takes away its licence. But it's ok, it was popular so deaths shouldn't matter?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/37293705/culture-of-drugs-at-fabric-causes-licence-to-be-revoked

You obviously haven't read the numerous articles about drug taking (and worse) at the BBC.

TheScreamingEagles

tlg86 said:

But Corbyn has already seen off one Tory leader, so he must be doing something right....

Doesn't count, Cameron had already announced his retirement before Corbyn became Labour leader.

Yes, retirement is the word I'm going to use, as opposed to the other r word, as I still haven't come to terms with Dave's *retirement*

TheScreamingEagles

I've got an even more wince inducing comparison coming up in the next few days.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Eagles, he wasn't Caesar reborn.

Scott_P

@HTScotPol: Sturgeon now seen as 'ruthless and arrogant' by UK voters, poll suggests https://t.co/PddeEtr2Zn