politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It was Team Corbyn who trashed the Big Tent
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It was Team Corbyn who trashed the Big Tent
“We organise. They conspire.” This political conjugation sums up the campaign tactics for the Corbyn Remain campaigners. Momentum are busy organising Momentum meetings around the country while condemning “coups and plots” by those who think he should leave.
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"They all tried to make a go of the Corbyn project but ended up resigning after Corbyn sacked Hilary Benn in the middle of the night."
Think I'll just say "hmmmmmm" to that.
Don't think that is the way everyone is going to see it.
EDIT: oh, and I managed to say something substantive-ish and on-topic and still FIRST! First time I've managed that I think.0 -
FPT: An early portfolio for Next Tory Leader.
Dominic Raab 50/1
Kwasi Kwarteng 66/1
Penny Mordaunt 100/1
Rory Stewart 125/1
Mark Harper 200/10 -
Keep up the fight, Don!0
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Echoing @Richard_Nabavi
£1175 wanting to back Ben Carson at 95-1 for VP.
Considering the logos are already done for Trump/Pence...
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All correct. Sadly, it will only work if people want to listen. All the evidence is that they don't.0
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This is extraordinary ...
https://twitter.com/mikehearn/status/7552602150214328320 -
FPT
TheScreamingEagles said:
"Parliament approved an advisory referendum."
I have the distinct feeling that had Remain won the day the idea of this being an "advisory referendum" would never have seen the light of day0 -
Wilson's famous comment about the Labour party being a moral crusade or nothing holds true here, perhaps.
With Corbyn, it is a moral crusade (whether you subscribe to the morals or not).
Some platitude mouthing blairite peddling a pinkish version of the tory manifesto? that isn;t a moral crusade.
And so the labour party faces a dilemma. Survive, or win.0 -
Repost FPT:
Can't help thinking our smart and canny new PM, who clearly does her homework the night before and not on the bus en route to school like her predecessor, will aided and abetted by her team around her, over the next 12 months broker a multi-party deal involving all interested parties within and outside of the EU, present it to Parliament, have it endorsed by a clear Parliamentary majority, accepted by the devolved nations, and then follow it up with a massive majority at the next GE.
Give or take... ;-)0 -
Wrong. Farage said he'd ignore a 52/48 Remain victory.Moses_ said:FPT
TheScreamingEagles said:
"Parliament approved an advisory referendum."
I have the distinct feeling that had Remain won the day the idea of this being an "advisory referendum" would never have seen the light of day
remember that time Nigel Farage said 52-48 votes should lead to second referendum?
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/remember-that-time-nigel-farage-said-52-48-votes-should-lead-to-second-referendum-5963900/0 -
Yes to Rory, he's the only long term bet I've put on so far.Tissue_Price said:FPT: An early portfolio for Next Tory Leader.
Dominic Raab 50/1
Kwasi Kwarteng 66/1
Penny Mordaunt 100/1
Rory Stewart 125/1
Mark Harper 200/10 -
"There is nothing socialist about incompetence."
Really?
Seems to me that in practice incompetence is socialism's defining characteristic.0 -
I thought Michelle O had raised the bar in the First Lady fanciability stakes to an impossible level, but perhaps I was wrong...!SouthamObserver said:This is extraordinary ...
https://twitter.com/mikehearn/status/7552602150214328320 -
Good grief, I agree with Don. I shall have to go and lie down.
On a lighter note before I leave, isn't the opening sentence defining an irregular verb? We organise, you conspire, they commit high treason?0 -
"There's nothing socialist about incompetence" isn't a bad slogan. Of course the problem last year was that the less aphoristic, more concrete "there's nothing socialist about Cooper, Burnham and Kendall" rather carried the day. Essentially, unless the "unity" challenger can give some credibility to "there's something socialist about the PLP" it's likely that the members will continue to prioritise consistency with Labour's basic principles over competence.
It would be nice to see a candidate who offered both. Smith maybe, Eagle appears to offer somewhere between zero and one of the two qualities.0 -
It's such a bizarre situation now anything seems possible.
If Jez loses could he claim its undemocratic and continue sitting on the front bench regardless and refuse to hand over. Remain in the HOC office allocated for the LOTO and refuse to be evicted?
I realise this is bordering on the surreal but all the same?0 -
The choice facing them is not survive or win. Right here, right now the second option is not on the table. The choice is survival or oblivion.taffys said:Wilson's famous comment about the Labour party being a moral crusade or nothing holds true here, perhaps.
With Corbyn, it is a moral crusade (whether you subscribe to the morals or not).
Some platitude mouthing blairite peddling a pinkish version of the tory manifesto? that isn;t a moral crusade.
And so the labour party faces a dilemma. Survive, or win.
If they choose Corbyn they are accepting the second. If it is Smith, there is still a chance of the first.0 -
I accept your apology. Enjoy your safari, just don't kill any animals out there.SeanT said:THE SCREAMING EAGLES -
Sorry dude. I went over the top last night. My apologies.
The last few weeks have sent me a bit mad, and Nice, with the dead kids piled high, has added violent anger to that madness.
I still think we will have to address the problem of Islamism in ways which will make us all uncomfortable, but I let my feelings on this get personal. Tsk.
I'm off on safari to Zimbabwe and Zambia in a couple of days, so hopefully that will give me a chance to calm the fuck down, not think about Brexit, Islam, politics, or anything much, for a week or more. This will be good.
Salaam.0 -
I thought we were discussing "advisory referendums" and then you go and change the subject?TheScreamingEagles said:
Wrong. Farage said he'd ignore a 52/48 Remain victory.Moses_ said:FPT
TheScreamingEagles said:
"Parliament approved an advisory referendum."
I have the distinct feeling that had Remain won the day the idea of this being an "advisory referendum" would never have seen the light of day
remember that time Nigel Farage said 52-48 votes should lead to second referendum?
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/remember-that-time-nigel-farage-said-52-48-votes-should-lead-to-second-referendum-5963900/
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That's blatant. More subtle American speechwriters plagiarise foreign figures... like Neil Kinnock.SouthamObserver said:This is extraordinary ...
https://twitter.com/mikehearn/status/7552602150214328320 -
Emily Thornberry complain about an "all male" FCO team, and gets "spanked" by Alan Duncan0
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Butbutbut Breaking Point Nige wasn't really anything to do with the real Leave campaign.TheScreamingEagles said:
Wrong. Farage said he'd ignore a 52/48 Remain victory.Moses_ said:FPT
TheScreamingEagles said:
"Parliament approved an advisory referendum."
I have the distinct feeling that had Remain won the day the idea of this being an "advisory referendum" would never have seen the light of day
remember that time Nigel Farage said 52-48 votes should lead to second referendum?
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/remember-that-time-nigel-farage-said-52-48-votes-should-lead-to-second-referendum-5963900/0 -
"The change campaign needs two strands: the promotion of the values and leadership skills of whoever emerges as unity candidate and the exposure of Corbyn’s incompetence and failure as a leader by those who worked for him and gave up in despair."
Rather than focusing on the values of the alternative candidate - which leads to the dead end of the personalization of the candidate ("I'm a mother / married / gay / a woman / eat yogurt / love my dog / I believe in nice things - yeah, yeah, don't we all dearie") - it would be nice if a candidate promoted a political viewpoint.
Just for a change. Just a thought. It used to happen. It might be nice for it to happen again.0 -
Arguing over who trashed the Big Tent is irrelevant, really. The fact is, the Big Tent is lying in tatters with the main posts smashed to smithereens. The argument now is about which dishevelled group gets to huddle under the torn remnants of the fabric.0
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Corbyn did that, no?Cyclefree said:"The change campaign needs two strands: the promotion of the values and leadership skills of whoever emerges as unity candidate and the exposure of Corbyn’s incompetence and failure as a leader by those who worked for him and gave up in despair."
Rather than focusing on the values of the alternative candidate - which leads to the dead end of the personalization of the candidate ("I'm a mother / married / gay / a woman / eat yogurt / love my dog / I believe in nice things - yeah, yeah, don't we all dearie") - it would be nice if a candidate promoted a political viewpoint.
Just for a change. Just a thought. It used to happen. It might be nice for it to happen again.0 -
''If they choose Corbyn they are accepting the second. If it is Smith, there is still a chance of the first. ''
I disagree. Let's say Corbyn went into 2020 with a genuinely hard left programme. How many labour voters would really notice? how many would desert? as Mr Southam says, its tribal.
OF course labour would lose. But they might retain 200mps, or maybe more. That doesn;t look like oblivion to me. Ask the liberal democrats about oblivion.0 -
I wonder if that indicates just how non-political the Trump campaign really is? I can get get a low rank underling doing a bit of rhetorical thievery, but for someone higher up not to stop it in its tracks suggests a huge lack of knowledge of and interest in recent US politics. Or is just a continuation of Operation Outrageous Attention Seeking?SouthamObserver said:This is extraordinary ...
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He said he'd fight for another referendum - not to ignore the result of this one and demand we leave the EU anyway.TheScreamingEagles said:
Wrong. Farage said he'd ignore a 52/48 Remain victory.Moses_ said:FPT
TheScreamingEagles said:
"Parliament approved an advisory referendum."
I have the distinct feeling that had Remain won the day the idea of this being an "advisory referendum" would never have seen the light of day
remember that time Nigel Farage said 52-48 votes should lead to second referendum?
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/remember-that-time-nigel-farage-said-52-48-votes-should-lead-to-second-referendum-5963900/0 -
I know. The official campaign wants to spend the £350m a week contributions to the NHS right?Theuniondivvie said:
Butbutbut Breaking Point Nige wasn't really anything to do with the real Leave campaign.TheScreamingEagles said:
Wrong. Farage said he'd ignore a 52/48 Remain victory.Moses_ said:FPT
TheScreamingEagles said:
"Parliament approved an advisory referendum."
I have the distinct feeling that had Remain won the day the idea of this being an "advisory referendum" would never have seen the light of day
remember that time Nigel Farage said 52-48 votes should lead to second referendum?
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/remember-that-time-nigel-farage-said-52-48-votes-should-lead-to-second-referendum-5963900/0 -
What was funny is the Republicans in the audience knew it was plagerised.williamglenn said:
That's blatant. More subtle American speechwriters plagiarise foreign figures... like Neil Kinnock.SouthamObserver said:This is extraordinary ...
https://twitter.com/mikehearn/status/7552602150214328320 -
Hmm, a good leader knows how to delegate. Brown was famously poor at it.John_M said:This is smart.
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/7553687978848665610 -
The 200+ MPs scenario would be realistic if the MPs got behind Corbyn. In principle not a problem: as professional politicians they're going to spend 80pc of their time fronting up for positions they don't believe in. In practice it's not going to happen; the confrontation with the values of the members has become too entrenched meaning that it's now win or leave for much of the PLP. That would mean Corbyn fighting the election with probably fewer than 100 sitting Labour MPs and needing new candidates to take on LD/Indy/new party MPs (I think we can safely rule out honourable by-elections in the event of defections). It seems inconceivable that ownership of the Labour brand would be enough to hold onto the vote share required to keep the formerly safe Labour seats as Labour.taffys said:''If they choose Corbyn they are accepting the second. If it is Smith, there is still a chance of the first. ''
I disagree. Let's say Corbyn went into 2020 with a genuinely hard left programme. How many labour voters would really notice? how many would desert? as Mr Southam says, its tribal.
OF course labour would lose. But they might retain 200mps, or maybe more. That doesn;t look like oblivion to me. Ask the liberal democrats about oblivion.0 -
Yes. He did. Which is why any challenger needs to do the same. They're not. They're arguing about his management style which may well be catastrophically useless. But that is not really going to fire up the Labour electorate and it is not really going to do anything to persuade voters outside that electorate that Labour is a party fit to be considered for government.runnymede said:
Corbyn did that, no?Cyclefree said:"The change campaign needs two strands: the promotion of the values and leadership skills of whoever emerges as unity candidate and the exposure of Corbyn’s incompetence and failure as a leader by those who worked for him and gave up in despair."
Rather than focusing on the values of the alternative candidate - which leads to the dead end of the personalization of the candidate ("I'm a mother / married / gay / a woman / eat yogurt / love my dog / I believe in nice things - yeah, yeah, don't we all dearie") - it would be nice if a candidate promoted a political viewpoint.
Just for a change. Just a thought. It used to happen. It might be nice for it to happen again.
What is Labour for?
Answers on one side of the paper only, please. Give examples of what the answers mean in practice and your proposals for implementation. Points will be deducted for a one-word answer (e.g. "equality" with no further explanation).
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Lady Nugee's Finest Moments is a slim volume indeed....ToryJim said:0 -
or muslims.......TheScreamingEagles said:
I accept your apology. Enjoy your safari, just don't kill any animals out there.SeanT said:THE SCREAMING EAGLES -
Sorry dude. I went over the top last night. My apologies.
The last few weeks have sent me a bit mad, and Nice, with the dead kids piled high, has added violent anger to that madness.
I still think we will have to address the problem of Islamism in ways which will make us all uncomfortable, but I let my feelings on this get personal. Tsk.
I'm off on safari to Zimbabwe and Zambia in a couple of days, so hopefully that will give me a chance to calm the fuck down, not think about Brexit, Islam, politics, or anything much, for a week or more. This will be good.
Salaam.
......
...
..and don't get killed by any.........0 -
I think Corbyn's reluctance to put any enthusiasm into campaigning for remain was the straw which broke the camel's back for a lot of people. Not because they blame him for the result but it showed that Corbyn isn't just unwilling to compromise with the PLP but even those who support him. Labour members are strongly remain, Corbyn's constituency in Islington is strongly remain, the young people he claims to speak for predominantly wanted Britain to stay in the EU, yet Corbyn couldn't bring himself to cobble together any sort of effort for remain. It really is the Jeremy Corbyn party, it's impossible for any sort of big tent to develop around someone so close minded.0
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Richard_Nabavi said:
Arguing over who trashed the Big Tent is irrelevant, really. The fact is, the Big Tent is lying in tatters with the main posts smashed to smithereens. The argument now is about which dishevelled group gets to huddle under the torn remnants of the fabric.
Many had hoped it would mark The End. But the fight between Shelterists v The Outdoors Society proved to be the bloodiest in Labour's history...0 -
Sometimes you can delegate too much, I think Cameron at times was guilty of that. May is going to have to find the right balance, she is known for being very hands on but she is going to have to learn to delegate a bit more.MaxPB said:
Hmm, a good leader knows how to delegate. Brown was famously poor at it.John_M said:This is smart.
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/755368797884866561
Doesn't look like it so far...0 -
Many thanks, Don, an interesting article; and good afternoon, everybody.
I am really sad for the Labour party. It's incredible that people who've paid full membership months ago can't vote in the leadership election, but people who can manage to pay £25 in a brief window now can vote. How do they conceive these rules?
Maybe they will be able to come back from this whole mess, but I can't imagine how. Beyond parody.
So many things I can't imagine. What on earth will the Conservatives be reduced to with no effective opposition? What will the impact be on the country? What about all the people who look to Labour (even if mistakenly) to stand up for their interests?0 -
Yes. We just didn't say within what time frame........the NHS budget will rise by £350mn a week, eventually. We promise.TheScreamingEagles said:
I know. The official campaign wants to spend the £350m a week contributions to the NHS right?Theuniondivvie said:
Butbutbut Breaking Point Nige wasn't really anything to do with the real Leave campaign.TheScreamingEagles said:
Wrong. Farage said he'd ignore a 52/48 Remain victory.Moses_ said:FPT
TheScreamingEagles said:
"Parliament approved an advisory referendum."
I have the distinct feeling that had Remain won the day the idea of this being an "advisory referendum" would never have seen the light of day
remember that time Nigel Farage said 52-48 votes should lead to second referendum?
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/remember-that-time-nigel-farage-said-52-48-votes-should-lead-to-second-referendum-5963900/0 -
As opposed to the course we are on now, with Corbyn going into 2020 with a genuinely hard left programme and ending up with perhaps 20 Labour MPs, with perhaps another 60 current sitting MPs reelected after standing for what by then had become a breakaway "Parliamentary Labour Party", and the Conservatives, UKIP, Plaid and the Lib Dems picking up the rest of those Labour heartland seats thanks to a split Labour/PLP vote.taffys said:''If they choose Corbyn they are accepting the second. If it is Smith, there is still a chance of the first. ''
I disagree. Let's say Corbyn went into 2020 with a genuinely hard left programme. How many labour voters would really notice? how many would desert? as Mr Southam says, its tribal.
OF course labour would lose. But they might retain 200mps, or maybe more. That doesn;t look like oblivion to me. Ask the liberal democrats about oblivion.
The different course of events is entirely down to the choice that Corbyn has made over the past couple of weeks.
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@paulwaugh: PM's spksman adds re new Cab Cttees: "This idea that it's to manage relations between other Cabinet ministers..that's not what it's about"
Aye, right...0 -
Also the petition for a second referendum was started by a Leaver.Theuniondivvie said:
Butbutbut Breaking Point Nige wasn't really anything to do with the real Leave campaign.TheScreamingEagles said:
Wrong. Farage said he'd ignore a 52/48 Remain victory.Moses_ said:FPT
TheScreamingEagles said:
"Parliament approved an advisory referendum."
I have the distinct feeling that had Remain won the day the idea of this being an "advisory referendum" would never have seen the light of day
remember that time Nigel Farage said 52-48 votes should lead to second referendum?
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/remember-that-time-nigel-farage-said-52-48-votes-should-lead-to-second-referendum-5963900/0 -
I wonder if the PB Tories enjoying the turmoil in Labour (as am I) are perhaps taking their eye off the ball in just what they've ended up with in May.
With all the heartless cruelty and callous coldness of Thatcher but none of the Iron Lady's ability to give away lots and lots of free stuff, her stand offish, out of touch personality seems to belong to a bygone age, where it was expected that a Prime Minister was not one of us.
It seems to me there is an innate unelectability in May which as the Cruella De Ville meme starts to build and take root will only get worse. Thatcher took over from an incredible unpopular government at a time of established turmoil, gaining goodwill she could cement with a military victory and the biggest Socialist give away in British history.
May takes over from a neutral to mildly approved of government, only about to enter a sustained period of economic uncertainty, with no military capable of winning campaign even if one presented itself and nothing to hand out as freebies.0 -
Which means what?Scott_P said:
EqualityCyclefree said:What is Labour for?
- Equality of opportunity?
- Equality of outcome?
- An equal share equivalent to a person's contribution?
- An equal share equivalent to a person's need?
- Equal shares regardless of any other considerations?
- Equal treatment regardless of a person's behavior?
- Equal treatment based on a person's behavior or other relevant matters?
- Equality in law or equality in fact?
etc etc.......
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I disagree. If you delegate you have to make sure you hold your people to account. May is going to be judged on her opening speech. I'll agree with you if the mood music is that she's using these committees to issue instructions or micro-manage in any way.jonny83 said:
Sometimes you can delegate too much, I think Cameron at times was guilty of that. May is going to have to find the right balance, she is known for being very hands on but she is going to have to learn to delegate a bit more.MaxPB said:
Hmm, a good leader knows how to delegate. Brown was famously poor at it.John_M said:This is smart.
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/755368797884866561
Doesn't look like it so far...0 -
Boris, Gove. How devious was that.MP_SE said:
I always said Europhiles were incredibly devious.Moses_ said:FPT
TheScreamingEagles said:
"Parliament approved an advisory referendum."
I have the distinct feeling that had Remain won the day the idea of this being an "advisory referendum" would never have seen the light of day0 -
For there to be no differences in wealth ever....they know this will never be achieved but it gives them a reason to keep existing.Cyclefree said:
Which means what?Scott_P said:
EqualityCyclefree said:What is Labour for?
- Equality of opportunity?
- Equality of outcome?
- An equal share equivalent to a person's contribution?
- An equal share equivalent to a person's need?
- Equal shares regardless of any other considerations?
- Equal treatment regardless of a person's behavior?
- Equal treatment based on a person's behavior or other relevant matters?
- Equality in law or equality in fact?
etc etc.......0 -
You can understood why nearly half of America doesn't vote, when you can deliver the same speech to the two main parties - and both get applauded.SouthamObserver said:This is extraordinary ...
https://twitter.com/mikehearn/status/7552602150214328320 -
Yes,Cyclefree said:Which means what?
- Equality of opportunity?
- Equality of outcome?
- An equal share equivalent to a person's contribution?
- An equal share equivalent to a person's need?
- Equal shares regardless of any other considerations?
- Equal treatment regardless of a person's behavior?
- Equal treatment based on a person's behavior or other relevant matters?
- Equality in law or equality in fact?
A vote for Labour is virtue signalling, or it is nothing...0 -
I think the 29k majority speaks somewhat to her electability. To be honest I think an aloofness might be refreshingly different. I suspect she will win the 2020 election hands down.Lowlander said:I wonder if the PB Tories enjoying the turmoil in Labour (as am I) are perhaps taking their eye off the ball in just what they've ended up with in May.
With all the heartless cruelty and callous coldness of Thatcher but none of the Iron Lady's ability to give away lots and lots of free stuff, her stand offish, out of touch personality seems to belong to a bygone age, where it was expected that a Prime Minister was not one of us.
It seems to me there is an innate unelectability in May which as the Cruella De Ville meme starts to build and take root will only get worse. Thatcher took over from an incredible unpopular government at a time of established turmoil, gaining goodwill she could cement with a military victory and the biggest Socialist give away in British history.
May takes over from a neutral to mildly approved of government, only about to enter a sustained period of economic uncertainty, with no military capable of winning campaign even if one presented itself and nothing to hand out as freebies.0 -
They only had 232 after the last GE. Corbyn keeping Labour top-side of 200 seems remarkably optimistic if we have another four years like the last one. Can you imagine what a Corbynite GE campaign will look like?taffys said:''If they choose Corbyn they are accepting the second. If it is Smith, there is still a chance of the first. ''
I disagree. Let's say Corbyn went into 2020 with a genuinely hard left programme. How many labour voters would really notice? how many would desert? as Mr Southam says, its tribal.
OF course Labour would lose. But they might retain 200 MPs, or maybe more. That doesn't look like oblivion to me. Ask the liberal democrats about oblivion.0 -
nunu said:
For there to be no differences in wealth ever....they know this will never be achieved but it gives them a reason to keep existing.Cyclefree said:
Which means what?Scott_P said:
EqualityCyclefree said:What is Labour for?
- Equality of opportunity?
- Equality of outcome?
- An equal share equivalent to a person's contribution?
- An equal share equivalent to a person's need?
- Equal shares regardless of any other considerations?
- Equal treatment regardless of a person's behavior?
- Equal treatment based on a person's behavior or other relevant matters?
- Equality in law or equality in fact?
etc etc.......
Oh it can be achieved. Venezuela is on its way there now.
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“It was Team Corbyn who trashed the Big Tent”
I think the narrative has moved on a tad since then Don, naval gazing as to who did what and how, really isn’t going to achieve anything imho. – And yes, ‘Corbyn is beatable’ but not with either of the two candidates standing against him, the back door Trots that ensured he become leader will succeed a second time.
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Foot got 209 MPs in 1983 with a comically leftish programme (longest suicide note in history etc) AND a strong Liberal/centrist party. Labour got 29%Wulfrun_Phil said:
As opposed to the course we are on now, with Corbyn going into 2020 with a genuinely hard left programme and ending up with perhaps 20 Labour MPs, with perhaps another 60 current sitting MPs reelected after standing for what by then had become a breakaway "Parliamentary Labour Party", and the Conservatives, UKIP, Plaid and the Lib Dems picking up the rest of those Labour heartland seats thanks to a split Labour/PLP vote.taffys said:''If they choose Corbyn they are accepting the second. If it is Smith, there is still a chance of the first. ''
I disagree. Let's say Corbyn went into 2020 with a genuinely hard left programme. How many labour voters would really notice? how many would desert? as Mr Southam says, its tribal.
OF course labour would lose. But they might retain 200mps, or maybe more. That doesn;t look like oblivion to me. Ask the liberal democrats about oblivion.
The different course of events is entirely down to the choice that Corbyn has made over the past couple of weeks.
LDs are extremely weak, OK may come back a bit by 2020 but still.... there are very few seats they can win on a small swing.
other difference (bad for labour) is the SNP. Rock bottom for Labour is maybe dropping as low as say 164 MPs like Major in 1997, even with boundary changes0 -
better than Diane Abbott making up Indonesian provinces though?ToryJim said:0 -
Surely the time for delegation is after your people are clear about the top-level direction? When taking over a government mid-term, there is likely to be too much inertia to overcome for immediate delegation? Certainly with (previous-government-unplanned) Brexit to get off the ground, and virtually everyone in EU mindsets, I can't say I blame Mrs May for getting a grip right at the start. The best, indeed only, time to do it.jonny83 said:
Sometimes you can delegate too much, I think Cameron at times was guilty of that. May is going to have to find the right balance, she is known for being very hands on but she is going to have to learn to delegate a bit more.MaxPB said:
Hmm, a good leader knows how to delegate. Brown was famously poor at it.John_M said:This is smart.
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/755368797884866561
Doesn't look like it so far...
Delegation can come when the ship has settled into a new course.0 -
My understanding was that Benn's coup plot had leaked out via Margaret Hodge's No Confidence coup plot and he was forced into telling Corbyn that he had to go.MyBurningEars said:"They all tried to make a go of the Corbyn project but ended up resigning after Corbyn sacked Hilary Benn in the middle of the night."
Think I'll just say "hmmmmmm" to that.
Don't think that is the way everyone is going to see it.
EDIT: oh, and I managed to say something substantive-ish and on-topic and still FIRST! First time I've managed that I think.
And the rest is history.
My favourite tweet of the evening was from Tim Stanley - along the lines of "This must be the first time a tee-totaller has sacked someone at 0130".0 -
This seems as good a place as any for my stat: of all Conservative leaders since the war, only 3 (out of 12) have held constituencies outside the wider south-east of England (Hague, Eden and Douglas Home). Meanwhile only 2 out of 11 Labour leaders (or 3 out of 14 if you include the interim ones) had constituencies within this area (Attlee and Corbyn, and Harman if you include the interim ones).rottenborough said:
Yes to Rory, he's the only long term bet I've put on so far.Tissue_Price said:FPT: An early portfolio for Next Tory Leader.
Dominic Raab 50/1
Kwasi Kwarteng 66/1
Penny Mordaunt 100/1
Rory Stewart 125/1
Mark Harper 200/1
I'm defining the wider south east here as the London, South East and Eastern regions, collectively accounting for about 38% of UK population.0 -
Hmmm. Corbyn has a majority of almost 22k. Hard to see the crucial 7k difference in majority as a key predicator of their respective electability.ToryJim said:
I think the 29k majority speaks somewhat to her electability. To be honest I think an aloofness might be refreshingly different. I suspect she will win the 2020 election hands down.Lowlander said:I wonder if the PB Tories enjoying the turmoil in Labour (as am I) are perhaps taking their eye off the ball in just what they've ended up with in May.
With all the heartless cruelty and callous coldness of Thatcher but none of the Iron Lady's ability to give away lots and lots of free stuff, her stand offish, out of touch personality seems to belong to a bygone age, where it was expected that a Prime Minister was not one of us.
It seems to me there is an innate unelectability in May which as the Cruella De Ville meme starts to build and take root will only get worse. Thatcher took over from an incredible unpopular government at a time of established turmoil, gaining goodwill she could cement with a military victory and the biggest Socialist give away in British history.
May takes over from a neutral to mildly approved of government, only about to enter a sustained period of economic uncertainty, with no military capable of winning campaign even if one presented itself and nothing to hand out as freebies.0 -
Not as devious as trying to ignore the result of the referendum.logical_song said:
Boris, Gove. How devious was that.MP_SE said:
I always said Europhiles were incredibly devious.Moses_ said:FPT
TheScreamingEagles said:
"Parliament approved an advisory referendum."
I have the distinct feeling that had Remain won the day the idea of this being an "advisory referendum" would never have seen the light of day0 -
Raab is my pick.Tissue_Price said:FPT: An early portfolio for Next Tory Leader.
Dominic Raab 50/1
Kwasi Kwarteng 66/1
Penny Mordaunt 100/1
Rory Stewart 125/1
Mark Harper 200/10 -
It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the Conservatives go into the 2020 GE with another new leader.Lowlander said:I wonder if the PB Tories enjoying the turmoil in Labour (as am I) are perhaps taking their eye off the ball in just what they've ended up with in May.
With all the heartless cruelty and callous coldness of Thatcher but none of the Iron Lady's ability to give away lots and lots of free stuff, her stand offish, out of touch personality seems to belong to a bygone age, where it was expected that a Prime Minister was not one of us.
It seems to me there is an innate unelectability in May which as the Cruella De Ville meme starts to build and take root will only get worse. Thatcher took over from an incredible unpopular government at a time of established turmoil, gaining goodwill she could cement with a military victory and the biggest Socialist give away in British history.
May takes over from a neutral to mildly approved of government, only about to enter a sustained period of economic uncertainty, with no military capable of winning campaign even if one presented itself and nothing to hand out as freebies.0 -
This is the nub of the matter - spelled out at length in a great post from cyclefree in PT. Otherwise it's just bald-men-and-a-comb stuff, since at the moment who would argue that Labour is not heading for massive defeat next time whatever they do? Someone needs to say what the party is actually for. Both Smith and Eagle have been asked what their political differences from each other and from Corbyn actually are, and they just shuffle their feet and mutter incoherently. They seem to think that "I am not a Tory" is a philosophy.Cyclefree said:"The change campaign needs two strands: the promotion of the values and leadership skills of whoever emerges as unity candidate and the exposure of Corbyn’s incompetence and failure as a leader by those who worked for him and gave up in despair."
Rather than focusing on the values of the alternative candidate - which leads to the dead end of the personalization of the candidate ("I'm a mother / married / gay / a woman / eat yogurt / love my dog / I believe in nice things - yeah, yeah, don't we all dearie") - it would be nice if a candidate promoted a political viewpoint.
Just for a change. Just a thought. It used to happen. It might be nice for it to happen again.0 -
Unfortunately Lowlander's argument is completely one-eyed. I wrote earlier that Thatcher is a mythic figure. Those of us who actually remember the 70s and 80s have a different view of her. Thatcher's first government raised taxes for example.AnneJGP said:
It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the Conservatives go into the 2020 GE with another new leader.Lowlander said:I wonder if the PB Tories enjoying the turmoil in Labour (as am I) are perhaps taking their eye off the ball in just what they've ended up with in May.
With all the heartless cruelty and callous coldness of Thatcher but none of the Iron Lady's ability to give away lots and lots of free stuff, her stand offish, out of touch personality seems to belong to a bygone age, where it was expected that a Prime Minister was not one of us.
It seems to me there is an innate unelectability in May which as the Cruella De Ville meme starts to build and take root will only get worse. Thatcher took over from an incredible unpopular government at a time of established turmoil, gaining goodwill she could cement with a military victory and the biggest Socialist give away in British history.
May takes over from a neutral to mildly approved of government, only about to enter a sustained period of economic uncertainty, with no military capable of winning campaign even if one presented itself and nothing to hand out as freebies.
I do agree that she's a polarising figure, but she oversaw a huge increase in this country's prosperity and completely changed the UK's political narrative. As ever, I'm sure the Scottish perspective is different; given the SNP's dominance there, it's pretty much moot. The next election will be won or lost in England.0 -
Not especially. Someone's ability to be elected in a constituency is a different thing entirely to their wider electability as PM, recognising that many people will vote for a party (or at least against another one) based on who the leaders are). May could do just fine, but her ability to be elected in her seat is neither here nor there. Ed M gets elected very comfortably, as I imagine is Corbyn.ToryJim said:
I think the 29k majority speaks somewhat to her electability. .Lowlander said:I wonder if the PB Tories enjoying the turmoil in Labour (as am I) are perhaps taking their eye off the ball in just what they've ended up with in May.
With all the heartless cruelty and callous coldness of Thatcher but none of the Iron Lady's ability to give away lots and lots of free stuff, her stand offish, out of touch personality seems to belong to a bygone age, where it was expected that a Prime Minister was not one of us.
It seems to me there is an innate unelectability in May which as the Cruella De Ville meme starts to build and take root will only get worse. Thatcher took over from an incredible unpopular government at a time of established turmoil, gaining goodwill she could cement with a military victory and the biggest Socialist give away in British history.
May takes over from a neutral to mildly approved of government, only about to enter a sustained period of economic uncertainty, with no military capable of winning campaign even if one presented itself and nothing to hand out as freebies.
0 -
I think that quite possible too. May seems to be the interim leader.AnneJGP said:
It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the Conservatives go into the 2020 GE with another new leader.Lowlander said:I wonder if the PB Tories enjoying the turmoil in Labour (as am I) are perhaps taking their eye off the ball in just what they've ended up with in May.
With all the heartless cruelty and callous coldness of Thatcher but none of the Iron Lady's ability to give away lots and lots of free stuff, her stand offish, out of touch personality seems to belong to a bygone age, where it was expected that a Prime Minister was not one of us.
It seems to me there is an innate unelectability in May which as the Cruella De Ville meme starts to build and take root will only get worse. Thatcher took over from an incredible unpopular government at a time of established turmoil, gaining goodwill she could cement with a military victory and the biggest Socialist give away in British history.
May takes over from a neutral to mildly approved of government, only about to enter a sustained period of economic uncertainty, with no military capable of winning campaign even if one presented itself and nothing to hand out as freebies.0 -
Why do the wives and/or husbands get speeches anyway?SouthamObserver said:This is extraordinary ...
htps://twitter.com/mikehearn/status/7552602150214328320 -
Young Cardinals vote for old Bishops of Romesfoxinsoxuk said:
I think that quite possible too. May seems to be the interim leader.AnneJGP said:
It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the Conservatives go into the 2020 GE with another new leader.Lowlander said:I wonder if the PB Tories enjoying the turmoil in Labour (as am I) are perhaps taking their eye off the ball in just what they've ended up with in May.
With all the heartless cruelty and callous coldness of Thatcher but none of the Iron Lady's ability to give away lots and lots of free stuff, her stand offish, out of touch personality seems to belong to a bygone age, where it was expected that a Prime Minister was not one of us.
It seems to me there is an innate unelectability in May which as the Cruella De Ville meme starts to build and take root will only get worse. Thatcher took over from an incredible unpopular government at a time of established turmoil, gaining goodwill she could cement with a military victory and the biggest Socialist give away in British history.
May takes over from a neutral to mildly approved of government, only about to enter a sustained period of economic uncertainty, with no military capable of winning campaign even if one presented itself and nothing to hand out as freebies.0 -
It would surprise me. I think the only way she isn't fighting the election is if there is a health issue.AnneJGP said:
It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the Conservatives go into the 2020 GE with another new leader.Lowlander said:I wonder if the PB Tories enjoying the turmoil in Labour (as am I) are perhaps taking their eye off the ball in just what they've ended up with in May.
With all the heartless cruelty and callous coldness of Thatcher but none of the Iron Lady's ability to give away lots and lots of free stuff, her stand offish, out of touch personality seems to belong to a bygone age, where it was expected that a Prime Minister was not one of us.
It seems to me there is an innate unelectability in May which as the Cruella De Ville meme starts to build and take root will only get worse. Thatcher took over from an incredible unpopular government at a time of established turmoil, gaining goodwill she could cement with a military victory and the biggest Socialist give away in British history.
May takes over from a neutral to mildly approved of government, only about to enter a sustained period of economic uncertainty, with no military capable of winning campaign even if one presented itself and nothing to hand out as freebies.
0 -
Fundamentally Labour is, trite as it sounds, for the interests of the many rather than the few: for creating a society where the rewards of working hard are shared so that everyone can have a decent standard of living; where the risks of bad luck such as ill health or a lack of available employment are shared; where opportunities in life are not restricted by how rich one is born, or what jobs ones parents did, or ones race or gender.Cyclefree said:
Yes. He did. Which is why any challenger needs to do the same. They're not. They're arguing about his management style which may well be catastrophically useless. But that is not really going to fire up the Labour electorate and it is not really going to do anything to persuade voters outside that electorate that Labour is a party fit to be considered for government.runnymede said:
Corbyn did that, no?Cyclefree said:"The change campaign needs two strands: the promotion of the values and leadership skills of whoever emerges as unity candidate and the exposure of Corbyn’s incompetence and failure as a leader by those who worked for him and gave up in despair."
Rather than focusing on the values of the alternative candidate - which leads to the dead end of the personalization of the candidate ("I'm a mother / married / gay / a woman / eat yogurt / love my dog / I believe in nice things - yeah, yeah, don't we all dearie") - it would be nice if a candidate promoted a political viewpoint.
Just for a change. Just a thought. It used to happen. It might be nice for it to happen again.
What is Labour for?
Answers on one side of the paper only, please. Give examples of what the answers mean in practice and your proposals for implementation. Points will be deducted for a one-word answer (e.g. "equality" with no further explanation).
An economic policy that provides work that pays properly, educational opportunity for all and a safety net for when things go wrong are pretty much the essentials.0 -
Exactly the same as the current Tory administration then.Polruan said:
Fundamentally Labour is, trite as it sounds, for the interests of the many rather than the few: for creating a society where the rewards of working hard are shared so that everyone can have a decent standard of living; where the risks of bad luck such as ill health or a lack of available employment are shared; where opportunities in life are not restricted by how rich one is born, or what jobs ones parents did, or ones race or gender.Cyclefree said:
Yes. He did. Which is why any challenger needs to do the same. They're not. They're arguing about his management style which may well be catastrophically useless. But that is not really going to fire up the Labour electorate and it is not really going to do anything to persuade voters outside that electorate that Labour is a party fit to be considered for government.runnymede said:
Corbyn did that, no?Cyclefree said:"The change campaign needs two strands: the promotion of the values and leadership skills of whoever emerges as unity candidate and the exposure of Corbyn’s incompetence and failure as a leader by those who worked for him and gave up in despair."
Rather than focusing on the values of the alternative candidate - which leads to the dead end of the personalization of the candidate ("I'm a mother / married / gay / a woman / eat yogurt / love my dog / I believe in nice things - yeah, yeah, don't we all dearie") - it would be nice if a candidate promoted a political viewpoint.
Just for a change. Just a thought. It used to happen. It might be nice for it to happen again.
What is Labour for?
Answers on one side of the paper only, please. Give examples of what the answers mean in practice and your proposals for implementation. Points will be deducted for a one-word answer (e.g. "equality" with no further explanation).
An economic policy that provides work that pays properly, educational opportunity for all and a safety net for when things go wrong are pretty much the essentials.0 -
Yes it was. The idea that there should be turnout or victory thresholds for referenda is a debate worth having. Too bad it wasn't really had in depth beforehand of course, it could have been 50%+1 vote on either side and that would be that.logical_song said:
Also the petition for a second referendum was started by a Leaver.Theuniondivvie said:
Butbutbut Breaking Point Nige wasn't really anything to do with the real Leave campaign.TheScreamingEagles said:
Wrong. Farage said he'd ignore a 52/48 Remain victory.Moses_ said:FPT
TheScreamingEagles said:
"Parliament approved an advisory referendum."
I have the distinct feeling that had Remain won the day the idea of this being an "advisory referendum" would never have seen the light of day
remember that time Nigel Farage said 52-48 votes should lead to second referendum?
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/remember-that-time-nigel-farage-said-52-48-votes-should-lead-to-second-referendum-5963900/
I expect this to come back to haunt me in a second IndyRef. They too would only need 50%+1.
Creating new Committees purely as a means of control? Can be smart, but as someone who has had to service many committees, it's a pain in the arse.John_M said:This is smart.
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/7553687978848665610 -
Permit me a bit of space to make a few points and hopefully illuminate a bit of light as a lowly Labour activist/officer/organiser:
There are two Jeremy Corbyns.
The first is a man who has fought a principled battle his whole life. A man with both the strength and conviction to lead both the party and then the country in a leftward realignment. A man who is collegiate and consensual who absolutely does not allow abuse or factionalism of any kind.
The second is a man who says those things but does very few of them and the ones he does do are ineffectual. A man who appoints shadow ministers to a broad tent then ignores them whilst making policy up on the hoof over his head. Who refuses to protect NEC members threatened with violence with a secret ballot.
The Labour Party faces a basic and deadly problem. We have had an explosion in membership - a very good thing. But a large proportion of those people believe in the first Corbyn. Those people who have actually met him and tried to work with him know the first Corbyn is a cartoon character, a poster slogan, a meme utterly disconnected from reality.
Not only that, but this mythical man has become Kim Jong Un. Venerated. Unchallengable. To question him is to out yourself as a BLAIRITE and we all know that BLAIRITES are TORIES. Anyone with a rational mind looks at these examples from the likes of Lillian Greenwood with horror. Multiple sources of evidence documenting different occasions and scenarios but all illustrating the same problem - the absolute inability of the leader to do politics.
For the people invested in the cartoon Jeremy all these MPs are liars. Deluded. Plotters in the Chicken Coup. "They all tell one side of the story". And they need to be deselected because How Dare They say a word against our Leader with his Mandate. Then we come to Tom Watson. Also elected with a substantial mandate. The difference being that we should ignore his mandate and have him DESELECTED as well apparently. The "fat disloyal bastard".
And its not just the MPs. The NEC are in on it. They voted for a freeze date (mandated in rules) AFTER JEREMY LEFT. And it wasn't on the agenda apparently, despite Momentum-supported Ann Black posting a lengthy report from the meeting proving it was.
And so here we are. The membership are blindly supporting a person who doesn't actually exist. Anyone who isn't Corbyn or 100% loyal is a Tory. We in the Labour Party can't trust the MPs the NEC or the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party but once Corbyn is re-elected we will persuade voters to not only trust the Labour Party but to elect us in a landslide.
We are, to put it bluntly, fucked.
I fully expect May to call an election this November and win a majority of 150. At which point the angry mob will no doubt denounce the electorate.0 -
Is DECC definitely gone?0
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It seems to me that post-1989 - other than the execrable Third Way - there has been no serious thinking on the social democratic left about what it should be about in a world where socialism/communism has effectively been defeated. That total gap where thought should be has meant that, other than spending tax revenues paid by bankers (and that particular golden goose is not really an option in the way that it was), the only thing on the Labour menu is a version of reheated socialism peddled by people like Corbyn and Milne coupled with some post-colonial sucking up to oppressed non-white people.IanB2 said:
This is the nub of the matter - spelled out at length in a great post from cyclefree in PT. Otherwise it's just bald-men-and-a-comb stuff, since at the moment who would argue that Labour is not heading for massive defeat next time whatever they do? Someone needs to say what the party is actually for. Both Smith and Eagle have been asked what their political differences from each other and from Corbyn actually are, and they just shuffle their feet and mutter incoherently. They seem to think that "I am not a Tory" is a philosophy.Cyclefree said:"The change campaign needs two strands: the promotion of the values and leadership skills of whoever emerges as unity candidate and the exposure of Corbyn’s incompetence and failure as a leader by those who worked for him and gave up in despair."
Rather than focusing on the values of the alternative candidate - which leads to the dead end of the personalization of the candidate ("I'm a mother / married / gay / a woman / eat yogurt / love my dog / I believe in nice things - yeah, yeah, don't we all dearie") - it would be nice if a candidate promoted a political viewpoint.
Just for a change. Just a thought. It used to happen. It might be nice for it to happen again.
The Left has got out of the habit of thinking about ideas and it needs to relearn the habit, fast. I could provide them with a reading list, if that would help. In fact, if I can be bothered, I may even try and come up with some ideas for them. They certainly need all the help they can get.
0 -
I think you misread what I was saying. In general, I have a positive outlook on Thatcher. She destroyed the Unions which were destroying productivity, she freed up credit and other markets. Overall she had a net positive effect despite her complete and utter failure to address welfare largesse (in fact, she seeded the idea that eventually led to the disastrous policy of tax credits).John_M said:
Unfortunately Lowlander's argument is completely one-eyed. I wrote earlier that Thatcher is a mythic figure. Those of us who actually remember the 70s and 80s have a different view of her. Thatcher's first government raised taxes for example.AnneJGP said:
It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the Conservatives go into the 2020 GE with another new leader.Lowlander said:I wonder if the PB Tories enjoying the turmoil in Labour (as am I) are perhaps taking their eye off the ball in just what they've ended up with in May.
With all the heartless cruelty and callous coldness of Thatcher but none of the Iron Lady's ability to give away lots and lots of free stuff, her stand offish, out of touch personality seems to belong to a bygone age, where it was expected that a Prime Minister was not one of us.
It seems to me there is an innate unelectability in May which as the Cruella De Ville meme starts to build and take root will only get worse. Thatcher took over from an incredible unpopular government at a time of established turmoil, gaining goodwill she could cement with a military victory and the biggest Socialist give away in British history.
May takes over from a neutral to mildly approved of government, only about to enter a sustained period of economic uncertainty, with no military capable of winning campaign even if one presented itself and nothing to hand out as freebies.
I do agree that she's a polarising figure, but she oversaw a huge increase in this country's prosperity and completely changed the UK's political narrative. As ever, I'm sure the Scottish perspective is different; given the SNP's dominance there, it's pretty much moot. The next election will be won or lost in England.
Which again, is part of the problem May faces. She will struggle to raise taxes without a backlash despite that being a fairly clear requirement in the UK's current position (but that applies to all politicians in the current age), she doesn't have a bogeyman like the Unions. She can't even form the EU into such a bogeyman given her own record.
The positives and opportunities Thatcher had which made her stern, aloof personality a side issue do not apply to May. Her personality will be a big factor in how successful (or not) her premiership will be.0 -
The Department no longer exists, nor its membership of various Cabinet committees, mailing lists, and so forth.TOPPING said:Is DECC definitely gone?
The civil servants are being merged into BEIS (or BEISt)0 -
Rochdale Pioneers. You have lost the Labour party. Walk for god's sake. Start SDP2. You're wailing will achieve precisely diddlysquat. Act.0
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Excellent post.RochdalePioneers said:Permit me a bit of space to make a few points and hopefully illuminate a bit of light as a lowly Labour activist/officer/organiser:
There are two Jeremy Corbyns.
The first is a man who has fought a principled battle his whole life. A man with both the strength and conviction to lead both the party and then the country in a leftward realignment. A man who is collegiate and consensual who absolutely does not allow abuse or factionalism of any kind.
The second is a man who says those things but does very few of them and the ones he does do are ineffectual. A man who appoints shadow ministers to a broad tent then ignores them whilst making policy up on the hoof over his head. Who refuses to protect NEC members threatened with violence with a secret ballot.
The Labour Party faces a basic and deadly problem. We have had an explosion in membership - a very good thing. But a large proportion of those people believe in the first Corbyn. Those people who have actually met him and tried to work with him know the first Corbyn is a cartoon character, a poster slogan, a meme utterly disconnected from reality.
Not only that, but this mythical man has become Kim Jong Un. Venerated. Unchallengable. To question him is to out yourself as a BLAIRITE and we all know that BLAIRITES are TORIES. Anyone with a rational mind looks at these examples from the likes of Lillian Greenwood with horror. Multiple sources of evidence documenting different occasions and scenarios but all illustrating the same problem - the absolute inability of the leader to do politics.
For the people invested in the cartoon Jeremy all these MPs are liars. Deluded. Plotters in the Chicken Coup. "They all tell one side of the story". And they need to be deselected because How Dare They say a word against our Leader with his Mandate. Then we come to Tom Watson. Also elected with a substantial mandate. The difference being that we should ignore his mandate and have him DESELECTED as well apparently. The "fat disloyal bastard".
And its not just the MPs. The NEC are in on it. They voted for a freeze date (mandated in rules) AFTER JEREMY LEFT. And it wasn't on the agenda apparently, despite Momentum-supported Ann Black posting a lengthy report from the meeting proving it was.
And so here we are. The membership are blindly supporting a person who doesn't actually exist. Anyone who isn't Corbyn or 100% loyal is a Tory. We in the Labour Party can't trust the MPs the NEC or the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party but once Corbyn is re-elected we will persuade voters to not only trust the Labour Party but to elect us in a landslide.
We are, to put it bluntly, fucked.
Labour indeed does look screwed unless they can find a way to purge Corbyn and Momentum from the party. Smith or Eagle probably wouldn't win a GE either but it would get rid of Corbyn, an existential threat to the Labour Party.0 -
That is an excellent post. You truly have my deepest sympathies. It's pious, but worth saying, our political system only works when there is a functioning opposition. The Tories were ineffectual in the early naughties, and Labour are now. That is so unhealthy. Only the most blinkered partisans can applaud the current situation. The Labour party is literally hateful.RochdalePioneers said:Permit me a bit of space to make a few points and hopefully illuminate a bit of light as a lowly Labour activist/officer/organiser:
And so here we are. The membership are blindly supporting a person who doesn't actually exist. Anyone who isn't Corbyn or 100% loyal is a Tory. We in the Labour Party can't trust the MPs the NEC or the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party but once Corbyn is re-elected we will persuade voters to not only trust the Labour Party but to elect us in a landslide.
We are, to put it bluntly, fucked.
I fully expect May to call an election this November and win a majority of 150. At which point the angry mob will no doubt denounce the electorate.
I tweeted sarcastically that we should be grateful. It's not given to many to witness the birth of a new religion. Based on your description, I was spot on. We are collectively fucked.
0 -
Hmm thanks.TheWhiteRabbit said:
The Department no longer exists, nor its membership of various Cabinet committees, mailing lists, and so forth.TOPPING said:Is DECC definitely gone?
The civil servants are being merged into BEIS (or BEISt)0 -
What is "Momentum Campaign Ltd"? All of Momentum?TheScreamingEagles said:
0 -
Is that for real? Momentum actually seemed like a good name, not to mention able to be applied post-Corbyn.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
TBF I'd want limited liability if I was selling people that.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Depends if there's a formal split or not. If Corbyn leads Labour into 2020, that has to be likely but I see three realistic scenariosJonCisBack said:
Foot got 209 MPs in 1983 with a comically leftish programme (longest suicide note in history etc) AND a strong Liberal/centrist party. Labour got 29%Wulfrun_Phil said:
As opposed to the course we are on now, with Corbyn going into 2020 with a genuinely hard left programme and ending up with perhaps 20 Labour MPs, with perhaps another 60 current sitting MPs reelected after standing for what by then had become a breakaway "Parliamentary Labour Party", and the Conservatives, UKIP, Plaid and the Lib Dems picking up the rest of those Labour heartland seats thanks to a split Labour/PLP vote.taffys said:''If they choose Corbyn they are accepting the second. If it is Smith, there is still a chance of the first. ''
I disagree. Let's say Corbyn went into 2020 with a genuinely hard left programme. How many labour voters would really notice? how many would desert? as Mr Southam says, its tribal.
OF course labour would lose. But they might retain 200mps, or maybe more. That doesn;t look like oblivion to me. Ask the liberal democrats about oblivion.
The different course of events is entirely down to the choice that Corbyn has made over the past couple of weeks.
LDs are extremely weak, OK may come back a bit by 2020 but still.... there are very few seats they can win on a small swing.
other difference (bad for labour) is the SNP. Rock bottom for Labour is maybe dropping as low as say 164 MPs like Major in 1997, even with boundary changes
Scenario 1: Labour just about holds together and fights under one banner.
Scenario 2: Labour splits, pact with LDs
Scenario 3: Labour splits, SDP2 fights alone.
All three would be likely to result in Tory wins - Corbyn alone sees to that - but they'd range from comfortable to a crushing landslide. Both scenarios 2 and 3 could see Labour below 20% and facing a 15-20 point Con lead. That sort of lead, a split Labour support, new boundaries and UKIP in the mix could enable some candidates to win from a very long way back.0 -
I think they'll keep the trading name as 'Momentum'kle4 said:
Is that for real? Momentum actually seemed like a good name, not to mention able to be applied post-Corbyn.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
I've just ordered a companies house report on them to find outTheWhiteRabbit said:0 -
The problem is, that is indeed all trite and meaningless.Polruan said:
Fundamentally Labour is, trite as it sounds, for the interests of the many rather than the few: for creating a society where the rewards of working hard are shared so that everyone can have a decent standard of living; where the risks of bad luck such as ill health or a lack of available employment are shared; where opportunities in life are not restricted by how rich one is born, or what jobs ones parents did, or ones race or gender.Cyclefree said:
Yes. He did. Which is why any challenger needs to do the same. They're not. They're arguing about his management style which may well be catastrophically useless. But that is not really going to fire up the Labour electorate and it is not really going to do anything to persuade voters outside that electorate that Labour is a party fit to be considered for government.runnymede said:
Corbyn did that, no?Cyclefree said:"The change campaign needs two strands: the promotion of the values and leadership skills of whoever emerges as unity candidate and the exposure of Corbyn’s incompetence and failure as a leader by those who worked for him and gave up in despair."
Rather than focusing on the values of the alternative candidate - which leads to the dead end of the personalization of the candidate ("I'm a mother / married / gay / a woman / eat yogurt / love my dog / I believe in nice things - yeah, yeah, don't we all dearie") - it would be nice if a candidate promoted a political viewpoint.
Just for a change. Just a thought. It used to happen. It might be nice for it to happen again.
What is Labour for?
Answers on one side of the paper only, please. Give examples of what the answers mean in practice and your proposals for implementation. Points will be deducted for a one-word answer (e.g. "equality" with no further explanation).
An economic policy that provides work that pays properly, educational opportunity for all and a safety net for when things go wrong are pretty much the essentials.
Innocent Abroad is right - Labour is a party whose time has gone.0 -
Most of the time Thatcher was more unpopular than popular. She would have lost (to the Alliance) the first time she went to the country in 1983 had it not been for the Falklands; she would have lost (to Labour) the second time in 1987 had it not been having years of civil war. Thus Thatcher was more lucky than appealing: the support and devotion she gained from Tories came from her victories, rather than vice versa.Lowlander said:I wonder if the PB Tories enjoying the turmoil in Labour (as am I) are perhaps taking their eye off the ball in just what they've ended up with in May.
With all the heartless cruelty and callous coldness of Thatcher but none of the Iron Lady's ability to give away lots and lots of free stuff, her stand offish, out of touch personality seems to belong to a bygone age, where it was expected that a Prime Minister was not one of us.
It seems to me there is an innate unelectability in May which as the Cruella De Ville meme starts to build and take root will only get worse. Thatcher took over from an incredible unpopular government at a time of established turmoil, gaining goodwill she could cement with a military victory and the biggest Socialist give away in British history.
May takes over from a neutral to mildly approved of government, only about to enter a sustained period of economic uncertainty, with no military capable of winning campaign even if one presented itself and nothing to hand out as freebies.
With the one rather large exception of how Brexit pans out, May is also lucky with the political environment, at least as far as her opponents (outside Scotland) are concerned.0 -
Here's how it will go. We need Owen Smith to put on the show of his life. He won't win, but we need to show a substantial minority of support. Corbyn get re-elected. We then move against Momentum.Patrick said:Rochdale Pioneers. You have lost the Labour party. Walk for god's sake. Start SDP2. You're wailing will achieve precisely diddlysquat. Act.
Because for all the talk of splits one isn't needed. We just proscribe Momentum. Already we have Labour Party members who don't participate in the actual party, but instead sit quietly making notes at our meetings to then report back to Momentum. At their meetings - full of non-Labour members - they discuss what is happening in CLPs in the area and plot motions against us.
They are by definition a party within a party, and that we can ban under the rulebook. They can go off and form a new left party called Momentum, pull in the NHA and TUSC and SWP etc people. And under Smith the Labour Party will enact the kind of democratic socialist policies these people claim to support - only competently. And we will crush them at the ballot box. I can even see advantage of this as Momentum as a fringe left party could help block the advance of UKIP as a populist party amongst Labour "heartlands"0 -
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09655767TheScreamingEagles said:
I've just ordered a companies house report on them to find outTheWhiteRabbit said:
Originally registered as:
JEREMY CORBYN CAMPAIGN 2015 (SUPPORTERS) LTD 24 Jun 2015 - 23 Oct 2015
Private address0
![[Deleted User]](https://wd.vanillicon.com/d2ea526b1b06ed109333f390c7ae956b_100.png)
