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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LDs gain four seats in their best night of local by-electio

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  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Mr. kle4, probably John. He was very capable, stern, tough. Reminds me a bit of Aurelian (with better longevity) or Basil II (without blinding ten thousand men). He also, from memory, focused strongly on the East, which, strategically, is what the Empire really needed.

    It's possible Manuel's only real failing was not living another decade and bequeathing the Empire to an adult son, but we'll never know [I think the overthrower was a nephew of John's, imprisoned but escaped, if so one could blame John for that].

    It's also worth mentioning Isaac Comnenus, Alexius' uncle [I think], who reigned just two years as the Empire was still having a regicidal fit.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited July 2016


    I'm glad we had the referendum, even if I eventually wasn't convinced by the case for change.

    The referendum was lost because the case for being in the EU was lost, perhaps many years ago. Remaining in even after the case was lost would have just lead to more problems.

    The decision's been made. Let's get on with it.

    "Lost long ago" seems a fair verdict for me. How many people really bought in to the whole European project? People do want to trade with Europe. There were a lot of reluctant remainers who were worried about the impact on jobs and income. But the proportion of people genuinely keen on political union must be minuscule.

    Something I've pointed out before. If every time Jean-Claude Juncker appeared on the telly in the bowels of some dreary Brussels conference centre, the watching population - especially the young'uns - gaped in admiration, Cleggasm or Obamania style...

    - I love this guy! He makes me so happy to be European!

    - I'm so proud to have Juncker as MY president, I want to buy one of those ESPERER badges with a Juncker silhouette.

    - Provincial British politicians are so classless and petty compared to these cultured, multilingual figures - not mere technocrats, but uniters of a great continent!

    ... then the EU referendum result would have gone the other way. And Britain would have gleefully forged a New Europe.


    And we are about a squillion miles from that. One can hardly imagine the truth being further away. At a Union level, there has never really been a European version of JFK has there? There've been people attempting to play grand nation-forger - decades worth of them - but they've all been grey men in suits, and have preferred to perform most of their operations in shadows and backrooms - presumably because they know just how much appetite there is for it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    @SimonStClare

    Original source is Sam Coates in The Times, mine WA from Guardian live feed:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jul/15/theresa-may-to-meet-nicola-sturgeon-for-union-talks-politics-live?page=with:block-5788a44ae4b08239dbab7765#block-5788a44ae4b08239dbab7765

    The context suggests that the person in question could easily be Osborne himself.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Miss Plato, May may have made the Morsi Mistake. She has a slender majority but made wholesale changes and united Osborne with his friends and allies on the backbenches.

    We'll see how things play out.

    Mr Dancer, I always meant to ask - given your keen interest in Classical history, what swayed you to choose Theology as a degree subject?
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    So of the 4 gains:

    2 are from Independents (one of which a former LD)
    1 is from UKIP who didn't stand
    The last a seat where LD inexplicably didn't stand last time

    There are some signs of life, but this looks like a bit of a perfect storm of coincidences.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited July 2016
    Osborne's quip as reported by Guido (hence, heaping teaspoons of salt)

    "What are you going to do now, Mr Osborne?

    "Plot the downfall of my enemies."
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Miss Plato, Psychology, not Theology :)

    I only started reading classical history when I was about 18-19. I dropped both History and Classical Civilisation at the first opportunity (the former because it was mostly WWI stuff, the latter because I liked German and my school forced a choice between those two [and Latin]).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    @Tissue_Price Council by elections always have SOMETHING in them though that mucks up a straightforward analysis.

    Residents association standing this time, 25% independent candidate standing down etc :)
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,505

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    I not too sure what the apology should be for.

    They didn't win the 2010 election and therefore were not in a position to implement the tuition fee policy and by going into Coalition they helped to provide five years of stable government. A further bonus was the end of the dreadful Gordon Brown administration.

    Whilst in 2015 the electorate were brutal to the LibDems I for one am grateful for the part they played in the 2010-15 government.
    Indeed.

    It'll be interesting to see how history views the 2010-15 coalition government. I reckon it'll be better than hey were viewed at the time.
    It's a bloody shame the Coalition didn't continue: we'd still be in the EU now if it had.
    I liked the coalition and would have been happy for it to continue, altho I'm glad we got the referendum. I thought the LibDems were useful in toning down some Tory policies even if tuition fees wasnt one of them and it's not an issue in my top ten anyway. I wish there was someone there to get HMG to bin the selling off of housing association homes. I haven't heard much about that tho so maybe it's been quietly dropped? hope so.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    I not too sure what the apology should be for.

    They didn't win the 2010 election and therefore were not in a position to implement the tuition fee policy and by going into Coalition they helped to provide five years of stable government. A further bonus was the end of the dreadful Gordon Brown administration.

    Whilst in 2015 the electorate were brutal to the LibDems I for one am grateful for the part they played in the 2010-15 government.
    Indeed.

    It'll be interesting to see how history views the 2010-15 coalition government. I reckon it'll be better than hey were viewed at the time.
    It's a bloody shame the Coalition didn't continue: we'd still be in the EU now if it had.
    I liked the coalition and would have been happy for it to continue, altho I'm glad we got the referendum. I thought the LibDems were useful in toning down some Tory policies even if tuition fees wasnt one of them and it's not an issue in my top ten anyway. I wish there was someone there to get HMG to bin the selling off of housing association homes. I haven't heard much about that tho so maybe it's been quietly dropped? hope so.
    The Lib Dems are most certainly fighting this fight.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576
    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    I not too sure what the apology should be for.

    They didn't win the 2010 election and therefore were not in a position to implement the tuition fee policy and by going into Coalition they helped to provide five years of stable government. A further bonus was the end of the dreadful Gordon Brown administration.

    Whilst in 2015 the electorate were brutal to the LibDems I for one am grateful for the part they played in the 2010-15 government.
    The Lib Dems need to deal with political realities. The facts were that they were a key part of the anti-Tory vote. 1983-2010 this vote opted for them in preference to Labour where they could win or when Labour were unpalatable.

    The coalition killed that pillar of support.

    They need that anti Tory vote back. After 10 years in govt, that is the rich seam to mine.

    So they need to make it clear that this time, they will not prop them up.



    It's a shame so much of their vote was the anti Tory vote, since I'd like them to be open to working with either side, but saying they won't prop up the Tories makes more sense electorally.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    Assuming Britain won't be electing MEP's in June 2019 UKIP need a strategy. It's going to blow a huge hole in their finances and infrastructure.

    UKIP has some very deep thinking to do about its future. With the UK now leaving the EU, the only calling card that the party has is immigration. Presumably, the numbers coming into the country will decline as a result of Brexit and also as a result of the widely-expected Brexit-caused economic slowdown, so to keep front and centre of people's minds the party will surely have to tack rightwards on this topic. That risks straying into BNP territory unless such a move is very carefully calibrated. It is also gong to have to look at its other policies - and move leftwards if it wants to be a serious, sustainable alternative to Labour in its heartlands. That will be very tricky given the Thatcherite roots of most of the party leadership and membership.

    The worst result for Labour last night was where there was a third party challenger in the form of Yorkshire First, with no UKIP candidate. In the medium term, that sort of party would have a much better chance of appealing to Labour traditionalists disillusioned with Corbyn than UKIP with all their right wing baggage, unless UKIP seriously redefine themselve in the opposite direction to which you suggest they will drift. From the look of it, Yorkshire First are an anti-Westminster/London party in the same mould as the SNP but from an English point of view.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''You can argue that current migration from Muslim countries isn't helping, and that Schengen doesn't help national CT efforts. Still, the fundamental issue is that sections of the Muslim community are de-integrating from their host country, for a whole range of complex reasons.''

    Isn;t this how islam has spread through the centuries? followers colonise a tolerant, open region until they achieve critical mass. And then the violence and intimidation start.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    John_M said:

    Osborne's quip as reported by Guido (hence, heaping teaspoons of salt)

    "What are you going to do now, Mr Osborne?

    "Plot the downfall of my enemies."


    You have to be important to have enemies, dear heart.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    @ydoethur – thanks for the link, Times article appears free to view, appreciated.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,654


    I'm glad we had the referendum, even if I eventually wasn't convinced by the case for change.

    The referendum was lost because the case for being in the EU was lost, perhaps many years ago. Remaining in even after the case was lost would have just lead to more problems.

    The decision's been made. Let's get on with it.

    "Lost long ago" seems a fair verdict for me. How many people really bought in to the whole European project? People do want to trade with Europe. There were a lot of reluctant remainers who were worried about the impact on jobs and income. But the proportion of people genuinely keen on political union must be minuscule.

    Something I've pointed out before. If every time Jean-Claude Juncker appeared on the telly in the bowels of some dreary Brussels conference centre, the watching population - especially the young'uns - gaped in admiration, Cleggasm or Obamania style...

    - I love this guy! He makes me so happy to be European!

    - I'm so proud to have Juncker as MY president, I want to buy one of those ESPERER badges with a Juncker silhouette.

    - Provincial British politicians are so classless and petty compared to these cultured, multilingual figures - not mere technocrats, but uniters of a great continent!

    ... then the EU referendum result would have gone the other way. And Britain would have gleefully forged a New Europe.


    And we are about a squillion miles from that. One can hardly imagine the truth being further away. At a Union level, there has never really been a European version of JFK has there? There've been people attempting to play grand nation-forger - decades worth of them - but they've all been grey men in suits, and have preferred to perform most of their operations in shadows and backrooms - presumably because they know just how much appetite there is for it.
    Say what you like about Juncker but he's definitely colourful, not grey.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    How much coal gets burnt to fully charge an EV in the UK?

    Almost none. See: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
    Surprising current figure given that in 2015 30% of UK electricity came from coal.. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/447632/DUKES_2015_Chapter_5.pdf

    But if the current number is the new normal, how much gas is burnt to charge an EV?
    A standard EV battery is 60KWh which is 60,000 x 60 x 60 = 216MJ. Natural gas produces 50MJ per kilo so it's 4.2kg of natural gas to recharge the whole battery, but since gas provides about 40% of UK energy that means 1.7kg of gas is required to recharge a battery, or ~2m².
    You also have to account for the fact that:

    - natural gas power station is only 50-60% efficient
    - there are transmission losses
    - there are charging losses

    But even so, it's amazingly little isn't it?
    So looking at around 5kg of gas, plus all the other sources used?

    How far can it go on one charge?

    I can go around a hundred miles on three kilos of diesel
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    kle4 said:


    It's a shame so much of their vote was the anti Tory vote, since I'd like them to be open to working with either side, but saying they won't prop up the Tories makes more sense electorally.

    Well Tim Farron has explicitly rejected this - and the Lib Dems will always be open to negotiations with ALL sides (Though current Labour I'd have ALOT of reservations about (As does Vince Cable !)) to command a majority in the House.
  • wasdwasd Posts: 276
    ydoethur said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    rcs1000 said:

    bunnco said:

    North Norfolk.....
    Not really a surprise. They held it before but inexplicably did not field a candidate last time leaving a paper Conservative candidate to take the seat. With Norman Lamb, one of the rare LibDem MPs and not this time conflicted by (health) minister duties as part of the coalition, it was always one that they would have sought to regain.
    One thing you can say about North Norfolk LibDems is that they are very mobile. The local Tories less so, what with their walking sticks and all.
    I wouldn't read that much into it. Local factors rather than national Renaissance

    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot reporting from the Cote d'Azur, where the penny seems to be dropping Amongst the locals that perhaps Mrs May's QUALIFIED Freedom of Movement might have some merit after all

    I would have thought the scariest lesson from the tragedy yesterday is that you don't need bombs, guns, or to emigrate, etc. Anyone who can get a tourist visa and who can hotwire a truck can do this.
    Apparently the man rented it on Wednesday, and drove it down from the hills just a couple of miles away.

    Where he got the grenades and guns is another matter.
    Stephen King once said he abandoned a plan to write a book about a hijacked airliner being flown into a skyscraper because research convinced him it would be all too easy to do and he didn't want to give anyone ideas.*

    Ellis Peters frequently wrote about cars being used as murder weapons (not in the Cadfaels, obviously!) because she thought they gave an everyday immediacy to her books.

    It isn't difficult for intelligent and imaginative people to convert everyday items into fearsome weapons. Various plant sprays spring to mind, as does petrol. The will to do it is all that is needed, and sadly that seems far too common.

    *He did say that on 13/11/01 though, so treat with caution.
    I believe there is a pre-9/11 Tom Clancy novel that covers civilian airliners as weapons (I've not read it so I may well be mistaken)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028

    Miss Plato, Psychology, not Theology :)

    I only started reading classical history when I was about 18-19. I dropped both History and Classical Civilisation at the first opportunity (the former because it was mostly WWI stuff, the latter because I liked German and my school forced a choice between those two [and Latin]).

    Dear me, Mr Dancer. The head of History at your school sounds like a numpty.

    Now at my school in the year before Options you would study the Industrial Revolution with reference to the water supply system of Cannock, the collapse of the Chinese empire, Communism, the war in the Pacific and the Holocaust, plus one half-term of WW1 complete with field trip.

    Take up this year - 95%.

    That said, I am helped enormously by the new much improved GCSE curriculum which allows me to do Saxons, Normans, India, The American West and the Chinese Revolution rather than only the twentieth century.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    How much coal gets burnt to fully charge an EV in the UK?

    Almost none. See: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
    Surprising current figure given that in 2015 30% of UK electricity came from coal.. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/447632/DUKES_2015_Chapter_5.pdf

    But if the current number is the new normal, how much gas is burnt to charge an EV?
    A standard EV battery is 60KWh which is 60,000 x 60 x 60 = 216MJ. Natural gas produces 50MJ per kilo so it's 4.2kg of natural gas to recharge the whole battery, but since gas provides about 40% of UK energy that means 1.7kg of gas is required to recharge a battery, or ~2m².
    You also have to account for the fact that:

    - natural gas power station is only 50-60% efficient
    - there are transmission losses
    - there are charging losses

    But even so, it's amazingly little isn't it?
    So looking at around 5kg of gas, plus all the other sources used?

    How far can it go on one charge?

    I can go around a hundred miles on three kilos of diesel
    And how much energy does it cost to extract, refine, distribute and dispense that diesel?

    You think it just appears in your car because petrol fairies?
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    edited July 2016

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    How much coal gets burnt to fully charge an EV in the UK?

    Almost none. See: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
    Surprising current figure given that in 2015 30% of UK electricity came from coal.. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/447632/DUKES_2015_Chapter_5.pdf

    But if the current number is the new normal, how much gas is burnt to charge an EV?
    A standard EV battery is 60KWh which is 60,000 x 60 x 60 = 216MJ. Natural gas produces 50MJ per kilo so it's 4.2kg of natural gas to recharge the whole battery, but since gas provides about 40% of UK energy that means 1.7kg of gas is required to recharge a battery, or ~2m².
    You also have to account for the fact that:

    - natural gas power station is only 50-60% efficient
    - there are transmission losses
    - there are charging losses

    But even so, it's amazingly little isn't it?
    So looking at around 5kg of gas, plus all the other sources used?

    How far can it go on one charge?

    I can go around a hundred miles on three kilos of diesel
    And how much energy does it cost to extract, refine, distribute and dispense that diesel?

    You think it just appears in your car because petrol fairies?
    The same argument clearly applies to the 5kg of gas burnt at the power station, no?

    edit not so much need for refinement,clearly
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234


    I'm glad we had the referendum, even if I eventually wasn't convinced by the case for change.

    The referendum was lost because the case for being in the EU was lost, perhaps many years ago. Remaining in even after the case was lost would have just lead to more problems.

    The decision's been made. Let's get on with it.

    "Lost long ago" seems a fair verdict for me. How many people really bought in to the whole European project? People do want to trade with Europe. There were a lot of reluctant remainers who were worried about the impact on jobs and income. But the proportion of people genuinely keen on political union must be minuscule.

    Something I've pointed out before. If every time Jean-Claude Juncker appeared on the telly in the bowels of some dreary Brussels conference centre, the watching population - especially the young'uns - gaped in admiration, Cleggasm or Obamania style...

    - I love this guy! He makes me so happy to be European!

    - I'm so proud to have Juncker as MY president, I want to buy one of those ESPERER badges with a Juncker silhouette.

    - Provincial British politicians are so classless and petty compared to these cultured, multilingual figures - not mere technocrats, but uniters of a great continent!

    ... then the EU referendum result would have gone the other way. And Britain would have gleefully forged a New Europe.


    And we are about a squillion miles from that. One can hardly imagine the truth being further away. At a Union level, there has never really been a European version of JFK has there? There've been people attempting to play grand nation-forger - decades worth of them - but they've all been grey men in suits, and have preferred to perform most of their operations in shadows and backrooms - presumably because they know just how much appetite there is for it.
    Say what you like about Juncker but he's definitely colourful, not grey.
    Irregular verb.

    I'm colorful, you're an acquired taste, he's a prick.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    wasd said:

    ydoethur said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    rcs1000 said:

    bunnco said:

    North Norfolk.....
    Not really a surprise. They held it before but inexplicably did not field a candidate last time leaving a paper Conservative candidate to take the seat. With Norman Lamb, one of the rare LibDem MPs and not this time conflicted by (health) minister duties as part of the coalition, it was always one that they would have sought to regain.
    One thing you can say about North Norfolk LibDems is that they are very mobile. The local Tories less so, what with their walking sticks and all.
    I wouldn't read that much into it. Local factors rather than national Renaissance

    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot reporting from the Cote d'Azur, where the penny seems to be dropping Amongst the locals that perhaps Mrs May's QUALIFIED Freedom of Movement might have some merit after all

    I would have thought the scariest lesson from the tragedy yesterday is that you don't need bombs, guns, or to emigrate, etc. Anyone who can get a tourist visa and who can hotwire a truck can do this.
    Apparently the man rented it on Wednesday, and drove it down from the hills just a couple of miles away.

    Where he got the grenades and guns is another matter.
    Stephen King once said he abandoned a plan to write a book about a hijacked airliner being flown into a skyscraper because research convinced him it would be all too easy to do and he didn't want to give anyone ideas.*

    Ellis Peters frequently wrote about cars being used as murder weapons (not in the Cadfaels, obviously!) because she thought they gave an everyday immediacy to her books.

    It isn't difficult for intelligent and imaginative people to convert everyday items into fearsome weapons. Various plant sprays spring to mind, as does petrol. The will to do it is all that is needed, and sadly that seems far too common.

    *He did say that on 13/11/01 though, so treat with caution.
    I believe there is a pre-9/11 Tom Clancy novel that covers civilian airliners as weapons (I've not read it so I may well be mistaken)
    That's correct. "Debt of Honor". A Japanese pilot flies a Jumbo into the Capitol (iirc). Also notable for the first use of a cyber attack to cripple the US financial system. Man wrote good thrillers before he turned into a complete wingnut. Red Storm Rising is still a favourite.
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    ydoethur said:

    Miss Plato, Psychology, not Theology :)

    I only started reading classical history when I was about 18-19. I dropped both History and Classical Civilisation at the first opportunity (the former because it was mostly WWI stuff, the latter because I liked German and my school forced a choice between those two [and Latin]).

    Dear me, Mr Dancer. The head of History at your school sounds like a numpty.

    Now at my school in the year before Options you would study the Industrial Revolution with reference to the water supply system of Cannock, the collapse of the Chinese empire, Communism, the war in the Pacific and the Holocaust, plus one half-term of WW1 complete with field trip.

    Take up this year - 95%.

    That said, I am helped enormously by the new much improved GCSE curriculum which allows me to do Saxons, Normans, India, The American West and the Chinese Revolution rather than only the twentieth century.
    Yes that sounds like a huge improvement. My daughter's history topics for GCSE look very good.
  • YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    wasd said:

    ydoethur said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    rcs1000 said:

    bunnco said:

    North Norfolk.....
    Not really a surprise. They held it before but inexplicably did not field a candidate last time leaving a paper Conservative candidate to take the seat. With Norman Lamb, one of the rare LibDem MPs and not this time conflicted by (health) minister duties as part of the coalition, it was always one that they would have sought to regain.
    One thing you can say about North Norfolk LibDems is that they are very mobile. The local Tories less so, what with their walking sticks and all.
    I wouldn't read that much into it. Local factors rather than national Renaissance

    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot reporting from the Cote d'Azur, where the penny seems to be dropping Amongst the locals that perhaps Mrs May's QUALIFIED Freedom of Movement might have some merit after all

    I would have thought the scariest lesson from the tragedy yesterday is that you don't need bombs, guns, or to emigrate, etc. Anyone who can get a tourist visa and who can hotwire a truck can do this.
    Apparently the man rented it on Wednesday, and drove it down from the hills just a couple of miles away.

    Where he got the grenades and guns is another matter.
    Stephen King once said he abandoned a plan to write a book about a hijacked airliner being flown into a skyscraper because research convinced him it would be all too easy to do and he didn't want to give anyone ideas.*

    Ellis Peters frequently wrote about cars being used as murder weapons (not in the Cadfaels, obviously!) because she thought they gave an everyday immediacy to her books.

    It isn't difficult for intelligent and imaginative people to convert everyday items into fearsome weapons. Various plant sprays spring to mind, as does petrol. The will to do it is all that is needed, and sadly that seems far too common.

    *He did say that on 13/11/01 though, so treat with caution.
    I believe there is a pre-9/11 Tom Clancy novel that covers civilian airliners as weapons (I've not read it so I may well be mistaken)
    There is. They destroy the Capitol building during the State of the Union.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769


    I'm glad we had the referendum, even if I eventually wasn't convinced by the case for change.

    The referendum was lost because the case for being in the EU was lost, perhaps many years ago. Remaining in even after the case was lost would have just lead to more problems.

    The decision's been made. Let's get on with it.

    "Lost long ago" seems a fair verdict for me. How many people really bought in to the whole European project? People do want to trade with Europe. There were a lot of reluctant remainers who were worried about the impact on jobs and income. But the proportion of people genuinely keen on political union must be minuscule.

    Something I've pointed out before. If every time Jean-Claude Juncker appeared on the telly in the bowels of some dreary Brussels conference centre, the watching population - especially the young'uns - gaped in admiration, Cleggasm or Obamania style...

    - I love this guy! He makes me so happy to be European!

    - I'm so proud to have Juncker as MY president, I want to buy one of those ESPERER badges with a Juncker silhouette.

    - Provincial British politicians are so classless and petty compared to these cultured, multilingual figures - not mere technocrats, but uniters of a great continent!

    ... then the EU referendum result would have gone the other way. And Britain would have gleefully forged a New Europe.


    And we are about a squillion miles from that. One can hardly imagine the truth being further away. At a Union level, there has never really been a European version of JFK has there? There've been people attempting to play grand nation-forger - decades worth of them - but they've all been grey men in suits, and have preferred to perform most of their operations in shadows and backrooms - presumably because they know just how much appetite there is for it.
    Say what you like about Juncker but he's definitely colourful, not grey.
    Irregular verb.

    I'm colorful, you're an acquired taste, he's a prick.
    Even Nige prefers lush Juncker to Van Rumpoy - now he really was grey.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    runnymede said:

    ydoethur said:

    Miss Plato, Psychology, not Theology :)

    I only started reading classical history when I was about 18-19. I dropped both History and Classical Civilisation at the first opportunity (the former because it was mostly WWI stuff, the latter because I liked German and my school forced a choice between those two [and Latin]).

    Dear me, Mr Dancer. The head of History at your school sounds like a numpty.

    Now at my school in the year before Options you would study the Industrial Revolution with reference to the water supply system of Cannock, the collapse of the Chinese empire, Communism, the war in the Pacific and the Holocaust, plus one half-term of WW1 complete with field trip.

    Take up this year - 95%.

    That said, I am helped enormously by the new much improved GCSE curriculum which allows me to do Saxons, Normans, India, The American West and the Chinese Revolution rather than only the twentieth century.
    Yes that sounds like a huge improvement. My daughter's history topics for GCSE look very good.
    There are 140 possible combinations and we have complete freedom to choose any one of them.

    I have strong reservations about the exams and about the speed with which they're introduced, but I'm very happy indeed with the long overdue changes to content. It was absurd that 75% of university undergraduates in history had not studied any pre-twentieth century history since Christmas Year 9, and it was killing pre-modern history in this country.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518
    edited July 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    How much coal gets burnt to fully charge an EV in the UK?

    Almost none. See: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
    Surprising current figure given that in 2015 30% of UK electricity came from coal.. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/447632/DUKES_2015_Chapter_5.pdf

    But if the current number is the new normal, how much gas is burnt to charge an EV?
    A standard EV battery is 60KWh which is 60,000 x 60 x 60 = 216MJ. Natural gas produces 50MJ per kilo so it's 4.2kg of natural gas to recharge the whole battery, but since gas provides about 40% of UK energy that means 1.7kg of gas is required to recharge a battery, or ~2m².
    You also have to account for the fact that:

    - natural gas power station is only 50-60% efficient
    - there are transmission losses
    - there are charging losses

    But even so, it's amazingly little isn't it?
    Yes, even if you say it's 4m² that's still pretty amazing. We also have to take into account that the ICE is only ~40% efficient. Even the highly specialised F1 ICEs are about 50% efficient, petrol is going to get replaced eventually. I thought it might be hydrogen at first, but the basic storage and transportation issues were never solved. With the Li-S batteries currently in development increasing lifecycles and power storage, plus the incredible charging times, electric vehicles are very well placed IMO. Just not Tesla who have overspent and underdelivered.

    The latest CCGTs are 61% efficient btw!
  • glwglw Posts: 9,855
    ydoethur said:

    Stephen King once said he abandoned a plan to write a book about a hijacked airliner being flown into a skyscraper because research convinced him it would be all too easy to do and he didn't want to give anyone ideas.*

    Ellis Peters frequently wrote about cars being used as murder weapons (not in the Cadfaels, obviously!) because she thought they gave an everyday immediacy to her books.

    It isn't difficult for intelligent and imaginative people to convert everyday items into fearsome weapons. Various plant sprays spring to mind, as does petrol. The will to do it is all that is needed, and sadly that seems far too common.

    *He did say that on 13/11/01 though, so treat with caution.

    Stephen King's Mr. Mercedes, published in 2014, is about a killer who drives a car through a crowd of people.

    King also wrote an infamous novel called Rage under his Richard Bachman pseudonym which was about a school shooting. After a several incidents where perpetrators of such shootings were found to have read the novel King decided to let it go out of print.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    wasd said:

    ydoethur said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    rcs1000 said:

    bunnco said:

    North Norfolk.....
    Not really a surprise. They held it before but inexplicably did not field a candidate last time leaving a paper Conservative candidate to take the seat. With Norman Lamb, one of the rare LibDem MPs and not this time conflicted by (health) minister duties as part of the coalition, it was always one that they would have sought to regain.
    One thing you can say about North Norfolk LibDems is that they are very mobile. The local Tories less so, what with their walking sticks and all.
    I wouldn't read that much into it. Local factors rather than national Renaissance

    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot reporting from the Cote d'Azur, where the penny seems to be dropping Amongst the locals that perhaps Mrs May's QUALIFIED Freedom of Movement might have some merit after all

    I would have thought the scariest lesson from the tragedy yesterday is that you don't need bombs, guns, or to emigrate, etc. Anyone who can get a tourist visa and who can hotwire a truck can do this.
    Apparently the man rented it on Wednesday, and drove it down from the hills just a couple of miles away.

    Where he got the grenades and guns is another matter.
    Stephen King once said he abandoned a plan to write a book about a hijacked airliner being flown into a skyscraper because research convinced him it would be all too easy to do and he didn't want to give anyone ideas.*

    Ellis Peters frequently wrote about cars being used as murder weapons (not in the Cadfaels, obviously!) because she thought they gave an everyday immediacy to her books.

    It isn't difficult for intelligent and imaginative people to convert everyday items into fearsome weapons. Various plant sprays spring to mind, as does petrol. The will to do it is all that is needed, and sadly that seems far too common.

    *He did say that on 13/11/01 though, so treat with caution.
    I believe there is a pre-9/11 Tom Clancy novel that covers civilian airliners as weapons (I've not read it so I may well be mistaken)
    There is. They destroy the Capitol building during the State of the Union.
    There's another one where two terrorists loiter off the coast of the UK in a fishing boat, and fire a missile at a passenger jet on its way to land. That seems do-able too.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    How much coal gets burnt to fully charge an EV in the UK?

    Almost none. See: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
    Surprising current figure given that in 2015 30% of UK electricity came from coal.. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/447632/DUKES_2015_Chapter_5.pdf

    But if the current number is the new normal, how much gas is burnt to charge an EV?
    A standard EV battery is 60KWh which is 60,000 x 60 x 60 = 216MJ. Natural gas produces 50MJ per kilo so it's 4.2kg of natural gas to recharge the whole battery, but since gas provides about 40% of UK energy that means 1.7kg of gas is required to recharge a battery, or ~2m².
    You also have to account for the fact that:

    - natural gas power station is only 50-60% efficient
    - there are transmission losses
    - there are charging losses

    But even so, it's amazingly little isn't it?
    So looking at around 5kg of gas, plus all the other sources used?

    How far can it go on one charge?

    I can go around a hundred miles on three kilos of diesel
    60KWh batteries are good for 200 miles.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,505
    ydoethur said:

    Osborne's allies threatening May, who has a majority of 12 (16) for announcing he was sacked.

    How Machiavellian do people think she is? Could she get round her general election pledge by forcing the loss of her majority, leaving government unworkable, and going to the country blaming it on posh failed chancellor Osborne's personal spite?

    And if so, would she be the first PM since Baldwin to top 50% of the vote and the first since Macdonald to top 500 seats?

    I'm still not getting the idea that the Tories will gain votes at the next election, especially if it's early. They might gain share if some who did vote labour are put off by them now, and seats if labour split, but i'd be v surprised if they get to 40% let alone 50%.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    John_M said:

    Osborne's quip as reported by Guido (hence, heaping teaspoons of salt)

    "What are you going to do now, Mr Osborne?

    "Plot the downfall of my enemies."

    Osborne had been to The Ring, Wotan brought down by a woman.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    I not too sure what the apology should be for.

    They didn't win the 2010 election and therefore were not in a position to implement the tuition fee policy and by going into Coalition they helped to provide five years of stable government. A further bonus was the end of the dreadful Gordon Brown administration.

    Whilst in 2015 the electorate were brutal to the LibDems I for one am grateful for the part they played in the 2010-15 government.
    Indeed.

    It'll be interesting to see how history views the 2010-15 coalition government. I reckon it'll be better than hey were viewed at the time.
    It's a bloody shame the Coalition didn't continue: we'd still be in the EU now if it had.
    We still are. Or has A50 been triggered and telescoped since yesterday?

    A lot of water has to flow under a lot of bridges before we are out.
    Yes, but we are being taken away by the tide with no realistic way of preventing that. We're not out yet, but there's no stopping it.
    Events, dear boy, events ... Preferably before 2018 or so, otherwise we're really out on the open sea without a paddle.

    As one example of many benefits, the EU Competition Commisioner's ongoing fight against Google has no legal force if we leave. The UK would have to pay for its own investigation.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    ydoethur said:

    Osborne's allies threatening May, who has a majority of 12 (16) for announcing he was sacked.

    How Machiavellian do people think she is? Could she get round her general election pledge by forcing the loss of her majority, leaving government unworkable, and going to the country blaming it on posh failed chancellor Osborne's personal spite?

    And if so, would she be the first PM since Baldwin to top 50% of the vote and the first since Macdonald to top 500 seats?

    I'm still not getting the idea that the Tories will gain votes at the next election, especially if it's early. They might gain share if some who did vote labour are put off by them now, and seats if labour split, but i'd be v surprised if they get to 40% let alone 50%.
    I agree. There's not a lot of love for politicians of any flavour. I think May might even lose ground. The PLP are in pieces but Labour's polling is OK.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    MaxPB said:

    Just not Tesla who have overspent and underdelivered.

    Musk's modus operandi is always to overpromise as he knows that is always the way to push forward.

    A man on Mars by 2025 - doubt it, but he'll get there by 2035/40 maybe whereas a target date of 2040 right now would mean never.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Pulpstar said:


    I'm glad we had the referendum, even if I eventually wasn't convinced by the case for change.

    The referendum was lost because the case for being in the EU was lost, perhaps many years ago. Remaining in even after the case was lost would have just lead to more problems.

    The decision's been made. Let's get on with it.

    "Lost long ago" seems a fair verdict for me. How many people really bought in to the whole European project? People do want to trade with Europe. There were a lot of reluctant remainers who were worried about the impact on jobs and income. But the proportion of people genuinely keen on political union must be minuscule.

    Something I've pointed out before. If every time Jean-Claude Juncker appeared on the telly in the bowels of some dreary Brussels conference centre, the watching population - especially the young'uns - gaped in admiration, Cleggasm or Obamania style...

    - I love this guy! He makes me so happy to be European!

    - I'm so proud to have Juncker as MY president, I want to buy one of those ESPERER badges with a Juncker silhouette.

    - Provincial British politicians are so classless and petty compared to these cultured, multilingual figures - not mere technocrats, but uniters of a great continent!

    ... then the EU referendum result would have gone the other way. And Britain would have gleefully forged a New Europe.


    And we are about a squillion miles from that. One can hardly imagine the truth being further away. At a Union level, there has never really been a European version of JFK has there? There've been people attempting to play grand nation-forger - decades worth of them - but they've all been grey men in suits, and have preferred to perform most of their operations in shadows and backrooms - presumably because they know just how much appetite there is for it.
    Say what you like about Juncker but he's definitely colourful, not grey.
    Irregular verb.

    I'm colorful, you're an acquired taste, he's a prick.
    Even Nige prefers lush Juncker to Van Rumpoy - now he really was grey.
    Nigel made Van Rumpoy a household name :lol:

    My will to live used to ebb away when watching shots of the EU Parly on TV.

    All those rows of bored, numbered grey looking humans wearing headphones - it always reminded me of Dilbert cubicles for politicians.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited July 2016
    MontyHall said:

    ydoethur said:

    MontyHall said:

    Assuming Britain won't be electing MEP's in June 2019 UKIP need a strategy. It's going to blow a huge hole in their finances and infrastructure.

    Wacky suggestion I'm sure but how about "Mission Accomplished, time to disband"?
    There are plenty of examples of successes calling it a day at the right time, despite the temptation to cling on and milk the brand - The Jam, Fawlty Towers managed it where The Rolling Stones and Only Fools and Horses didn't. It looks as though Ricky Gervais is struggling to leave David Brent, hope he does. It must be tough.

    I cant imagine Nigel Farage will be able to resist a comeback, but if he does restrain himself, he and UKIP would have timed it just right.

    Leave 'em laughing!
    The Anti-Corn Law League would be the nearest parallel, but it was a pressure group rather than a political party.

    The Fair Trade Movement memorably broke itself up in 1895 before achieving its goals, because they thought they were making tariffs less likely not more likely.

    Perhaps UKIP should remember their example.
    Some kind of rebrand at least. "UKIP" should be retired having achieved it's purpose.

    I would suggest "Independent Democrats", and much could then be made of "iD" as its symbol, and "Identity" as it's cause. Maybe then they could merge some of the Labour Leave posse, disenchanted with both Corbyn and Blairites, with the Farage side of UKIP
    That would be a pointless distraction, and weaken an already weak organisation. It takes years to establish a brand name.

  • DaveDaveDaveDave Posts: 76
    John_M said:

    ydoethur said:

    Osborne's allies threatening May, who has a majority of 12 (16) for announcing he was sacked.

    How Machiavellian do people think she is? Could she get round her general election pledge by forcing the loss of her majority, leaving government unworkable, and going to the country blaming it on posh failed chancellor Osborne's personal spite?

    And if so, would she be the first PM since Baldwin to top 50% of the vote and the first since Macdonald to top 500 seats?

    I'm still not getting the idea that the Tories will gain votes at the next election, especially if it's early. They might gain share if some who did vote labour are put off by them now, and seats if labour split, but i'd be v surprised if they get to 40% let alone 50%.
    I agree. There's not a lot of love for politicians of any flavour. I think May might even lose ground. The PLP are in pieces but Labour's polling is OK.
    I agree too. And on the other side of the coin, Corbyn wins votes when it matters. Its the PLP that hate him, because they are right wing, at odds with the members and I think left leaning members of the public. Opinion polls put Labour neck and neck, Corbyn even won the BREXIT campaign.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,119
    Lib-Dems Winning Here! :smiley:
  • JonCisBackJonCisBack Posts: 911
    Independents standing down always leads to huge changes. The independent will almost certainly have had a lot of local cross-party and apolitical supporters whose vote will end up elsewhere.

    Also where no candidates stood previously the swings can be hugely misleading.

    Good results for LDs, sure, but over-egging it to have a separate thread with all that's going on in the world surely?!

    #ClutchingAtStrawsHere!
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    Pulpstar said:


    Even Nige prefers lush Juncker to Van Rumpoy - now he really was grey.

    Possibly the most extraordinary sight I have ever seen, was a sizeable demonstration in a London park one summer by a bunch of Belgians (young, mostly students, and mostly female) all wearing white t-shirts with "We Love Van Rumpoy" printed on them, chanting "Belgium Is A Real Country".

    They were upset at one of Farage's insult-laden speeches at the European Parliament. Wish I'd filmed it. They were a very earnest lot. Obviously took being Belgian very seriously.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518
    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Just not Tesla who have overspent and underdelivered.

    Musk's modus operandi is always to overpromise as he knows that is always the way to push forward.

    A man on Mars by 2025 - doubt it, but he'll get there by 2035/40 maybe whereas a target date of 2040 right now would mean never.
    Yes, but Tesla are a public company, not his play toy. Their profitability plan depends on being able to ship over 500k Model 3 EVs per year, they are gearing up to manufacture 400k in 2018.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    John_M said:

    ydoethur said:

    Osborne's allies threatening May, who has a majority of 12 (16) for announcing he was sacked.

    How Machiavellian do people think she is? Could she get round her general election pledge by forcing the loss of her majority, leaving government unworkable, and going to the country blaming it on posh failed chancellor Osborne's personal spite?

    And if so, would she be the first PM since Baldwin to top 50% of the vote and the first since Macdonald to top 500 seats?

    I'm still not getting the idea that the Tories will gain votes at the next election, especially if it's early. They might gain share if some who did vote labour are put off by them now, and seats if labour split, but i'd be v surprised if they get to 40% let alone 50%.
    I agree. There's not a lot of love for politicians of any flavour. I think May might even lose ground. The PLP are in pieces but Labour's polling is OK.
    What terrifies the Labour moderates the most is not that Corbyn will lose, but that he will lose and not particularly worse than Ed Miliband.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    NYT explanation of the Nice attack:

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/07/14/world/europe/trail-of-terror-france.html

    I had no idea it went on for so long....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    Heard Woodcock on the radio this morning.

    Perhaps he should be the man to start SDP2 or some such.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,582
    Pulpstar said:

    John_M said:

    ydoethur said:

    Osborne's allies threatening May, who has a majority of 12 (16) for announcing he was sacked.

    How Machiavellian do people think she is? Could she get round her general election pledge by forcing the loss of her majority, leaving government unworkable, and going to the country blaming it on posh failed chancellor Osborne's personal spite?

    And if so, would she be the first PM since Baldwin to top 50% of the vote and the first since Macdonald to top 500 seats?

    I'm still not getting the idea that the Tories will gain votes at the next election, especially if it's early. They might gain share if some who did vote labour are put off by them now, and seats if labour split, but i'd be v surprised if they get to 40% let alone 50%.
    I agree. There's not a lot of love for politicians of any flavour. I think May might even lose ground. The PLP are in pieces but Labour's polling is OK.
    What terrifies the Labour moderates the most is not that Corbyn will lose, but that he will lose and not particularly worse than Ed Miliband.

    I think that what terrifies them most is that Corbyn wants to completely re-engineer the party to make it a movement that does not have gaining power through parliamentary elections as its primary objective.

  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Just thinking about May's first public statement as PM re France, didn't Gordon have a big issue to deal with just after he got the top job?

    Was it a terror attack here?
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Theresa May doing a good job on Sky.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139

    There's another one where two terrorists loiter off the coast of the UK in a fishing boat, and fire a missile at a passenger jet on its way to land. That seems do-able too.

    Just a guess, but wouldn't any planes going to London still be far too high for a Manpad (man-held anti-air missile) to reach? Which means you'd need something much more substantial?

    A more coastal airport such as Southampton or Liverpool might be another matter.

    In another Tom Clancy book, the Americans take down a Japanese plane (I think an AWACS type) by flashing a high-powered laser into the cockpit. Such 'attacks' with lasers are annoyingly common. (*)

    (*) There was one of the helicopter-cop programs last year where the police helicopter was flashed by a laser. They saw where it was coming from, hovered overhead, and directed officers on the ground to the garden, even telling them which pocket the idiot had put the laser pointer into!
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited July 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    John_M said:

    ydoethur said:

    Osborne's allies threatening May, who has a majority of 12 (16) for announcing he was sacked.

    How Machiavellian do people think she is? Could she get round her general election pledge by forcing the loss of her majority, leaving government unworkable, and going to the country blaming it on posh failed chancellor Osborne's personal spite?

    And if so, would she be the first PM since Baldwin to top 50% of the vote and the first since Macdonald to top 500 seats?

    I'm still not getting the idea that the Tories will gain votes at the next election, especially if it's early. They might gain share if some who did vote labour are put off by them now, and seats if labour split, but i'd be v surprised if they get to 40% let alone 50%.
    I agree. There's not a lot of love for politicians of any flavour. I think May might even lose ground. The PLP are in pieces but Labour's polling is OK.
    What terrifies the Labour moderates the most is not that Corbyn will lose, but that he will lose and not particularly worse than Ed Miliband.
    I think the Conservatives can get a huge boost at the next election in they run on Leave.

    1. Before we've left the EU, they can run on the task to do: Leave the EU.
    2. After we've left the EU, they can run on the task achieved: left the EU, signed free trade deals with xyz countries.

    7/10 Labour constituencies voted Leave.

    https://medium.com/@chrishanretty/most-labour-mps-represent-a-constituency-that-voted-leave-36f13210f5c6
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139
    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Just not Tesla who have overspent and underdelivered.

    Musk's modus operandi is always to overpromise as he knows that is always the way to push forward.

    A man on Mars by 2025 - doubt it, but he'll get there by 2035/40 maybe whereas a target date of 2040 right now would mean never.
    Indeed.

    Although I still think the Hyperloop's a laughable concept. ;)

    As an aside, it looks like Sabre's making progress:
    http://arstechnica.co.uk/science/2016/07/reaction-engines-moves-ahead-with-single-stage-to-orbit-sabre-demo-engine/
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,751
    Mash has jumped the shark here. Ridiculous to suggest this mindset exists, even satirically.

    'Britain to get absolutely everything it wants from Brexit negotiations

    ..“But go in there British and proud, tell them ‘Full access to the single market, no immigration, and we keep all our subsidies or I’m out that door’ and they’ll cave like the continental cowards they are.

    “Though obviously we do need to meet in the middle on freedom of movement. They can’t come here but I still go wherever I want. That seems fair.”'

    http://tinyurl.com/h76u4ro
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    edited July 2016

    Pulpstar said:

    John_M said:

    ydoethur said:

    Osborne's allies threatening May, who has a majority of 12 (16) for announcing he was sacked.

    How Machiavellian do people think she is? Could she get round her general election pledge by forcing the loss of her majority, leaving government unworkable, and going to the country blaming it on posh failed chancellor Osborne's personal spite?

    And if so, would she be the first PM since Baldwin to top 50% of the vote and the first since Macdonald to top 500 seats?

    I'm still not getting the idea that the Tories will gain votes at the next election, especially if it's early. They might gain share if some who did vote labour are put off by them now, and seats if labour split, but i'd be v surprised if they get to 40% let alone 50%.
    I agree. There's not a lot of love for politicians of any flavour. I think May might even lose ground. The PLP are in pieces but Labour's polling is OK.
    What terrifies the Labour moderates the most is not that Corbyn will lose, but that he will lose and not particularly worse than Ed Miliband.

    I think that what terrifies them most is that Corbyn wants to completely re-engineer the party to make it a movement that does not have gaining power through parliamentary elections as its primary objective.

    The 'Labour' brand name is still massively powerful in British politics and around 25% of the voting electorate I am guessing will vote that way no matter who is in charge, without thought.

    That is one of Labour's biggest strengths and weaknesses at the same time.
  • DaveDaveDaveDave Posts: 76

    Assuming Britain won't be electing MEP's in June 2019 UKIP need a strategy. It's going to blow a huge hole in their finances and infrastructure.

    UKIP has some very deep thinking to do about its future. With the UK now leaving the EU, the only calling card that the party has is immigration. Presumably, the numbers coming into the country will decline as a result of Brexit and also as a result of the widely-expected Brexit-caused economic slowdown, so to keep front and centre of people's minds the party will surely have to tack rightwards on this topic. That risks straying into BNP territory unless such a move is very carefully calibrated. It is also gong to have to look at its other policies - and move leftwards if it wants to be a serious, sustainable alternative to Labour in its heartlands. That will be very tricky given the Thatcherite roots of most of the party leadership and membership.

    Here's my forecast. As May/Cameron never controlled ex-EU immigration, they don't want to. Immigration will stay as high, it will just come from different places. That's UKIP's positioning...Tories won't control immigration, yet now they can! Only UKIP will deliver for you.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,068

    Mr. kle4, probably John. He was very capable, stern, tough. Reminds me a bit of Aurelian (with better longevity) or Basil II (without blinding ten thousand men). He also, from memory, focused strongly on the East, which, strategically, is what the Empire really needed.

    It's possible Manuel's only real failing was not living another decade and bequeathing the Empire to an adult son, but we'll never know [I think the overthrower was a nephew of John's, imprisoned but escaped, if so one could blame John for that].

    It's also worth mentioning Isaac Comnenus, Alexius' uncle [I think], who reigned just two years as the Empire was still having a regicidal fit.

    Manuel suffered a defeat at Turkish hands in 1176, but it was by no means decisive, and as you say, had he lived another ten years, the Empire would have been fine. Even after losing part of Asia Minor to the Turks, it was still one of the Great Powers of Europe and the Middle East.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Sky reporting 10 kids dead, another 50 injured.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Mr. Doethur, sounds interesting, if a shade modern.

    Miss Plato, yes, Jacqui Smith made a statement (as Home Secretary) very shortly after being appointed. Not sure what it was.

    Then there were the floods.
  • JonCisBackJonCisBack Posts: 911

    rcs1000 said:

    How much coal gets burnt to fully charge an EV in the UK?

    Almost none. See: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
    Surprising current figure given that in 2015 30% of UK electricity came from coal.. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/447632/DUKES_2015_Chapter_5.pdf

    But if the current number is the new normal, how much gas is burnt to charge an EV?
    A "well-to-wheels" analysis of pure EVs including mining and shipping across the world the horribly difficult to purify neodymium for the magnets is not pretty, although also not easy to do accurately.

    EVs make sense for small range city cars to reduce local air pollution in population centres. I very much doubt they will significantly impact emissions of GHGs. One big reasons is the raw materials to make millions of electric cars and batteries are certainly not easily suppliable currently.

    Hybrids are a better bet but it is not trivial to calculate the net effects (and those you can easily find on google are generally highly biased)
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    There's another one where two terrorists loiter off the coast of the UK in a fishing boat, and fire a missile at a passenger jet on its way to land. That seems do-able too.

    Just a guess, but wouldn't any planes going to London still be far too high for a Manpad (man-held anti-air missile) to reach? Which means you'd need something much more substantial?

    A more coastal airport such as Southampton or Liverpool might be another matter.

    In another Tom Clancy book, the Americans take down a Japanese plane (I think an AWACS type) by flashing a high-powered laser into the cockpit. Such 'attacks' with lasers are annoyingly common. (*)

    (*) There was one of the helicopter-cop programs last year where the police helicopter was flashed by a laser. They saw where it was coming from, hovered overhead, and directed officers on the ground to the garden, even telling them which pocket the idiot had put the laser pointer into!
    Drive a petrol tanker into a hospital or sports ground. Hijack a train and derail it. Blow up a mainline rail track. Use a MANPAD against an airliner (depending on variant, range is around 5km). You can't defend everywhere.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,505
    Pulpstar said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    I not too sure what the apology should be for.

    They didn't win the 2010 election and therefore were not in a position to implement the tuition fee policy and by going into Coalition they helped to provide five years of stable government. A further bonus was the end of the dreadful Gordon Brown administration.

    Whilst in 2015 the electorate were brutal to the LibDems I for one am grateful for the part they played in the 2010-15 government.
    Indeed.

    It'll be interesting to see how history views the 2010-15 coalition government. I reckon it'll be better than hey were viewed at the time.
    It's a bloody shame the Coalition didn't continue: we'd still be in the EU now if it had.
    I liked the coalition and would have been happy for it to continue, altho I'm glad we got the referendum. I thought the LibDems were useful in toning down some Tory policies even if tuition fees wasnt one of them and it's not an issue in my top ten anyway. I wish there was someone there to get HMG to bin the selling off of housing association homes. I haven't heard much about that tho so maybe it's been quietly dropped? hope so.
    The Lib Dems are most certainly fighting this fight.
    great. I hope they win it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Mr. F, cheers for that info (I do forget bits and pieces).

    Having only one son was a bit unfortunate, but sometimes such things can't be helped.

    Mr. Pulpstar, I agree. Corbyn may be testing Labour's floor. The tipping point comes if the Lib Dems and/or UKIP start making wholesale gains.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited July 2016

    Mr. Doethur, sounds interesting, if a shade modern.

    Miss Plato, yes, Jacqui Smith made a statement (as Home Secretary) very shortly after being appointed. Not sure what it was.

    Then there were the floods.

    The discovery of two unexploded bombs in London and the Glasgow airport attack - Brown chaired an emergency COBRA meeting.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207

    Independents standing down always leads to huge changes. The independent will almost certainly have had a lot of local cross-party and apolitical supporters whose vote will end up elsewhere.

    Also where no candidates stood previously the swings can be hugely misleading.

    Good results for LDs, sure, but over-egging it to have a separate thread with all that's going on in the world surely?!

    #ClutchingAtStrawsHere!

    But c'mon, it's been a helluva long time since OGH could put up a thread with ANY good news for the Yellow Peril, however tenuous!
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    John_M said:

    ydoethur said:

    Osborne's allies threatening May, who has a majority of 12 (16) for announcing he was sacked.

    How Machiavellian do people think she is? Could she get round her general election pledge by forcing the loss of her majority, leaving government unworkable, and going to the country blaming it on posh failed chancellor Osborne's personal spite?

    And if so, would she be the first PM since Baldwin to top 50% of the vote and the first since Macdonald to top 500 seats?

    I'm still not getting the idea that the Tories will gain votes at the next election, especially if it's early. They might gain share if some who did vote labour are put off by them now, and seats if labour split, but i'd be v surprised if they get to 40% let alone 50%.
    I agree. There's not a lot of love for politicians of any flavour. I think May might even lose ground. The PLP are in pieces but Labour's polling is OK.
    What terrifies the Labour moderates the most is not that Corbyn will lose, but that he will lose and not particularly worse than Ed Miliband.

    I think that what terrifies them most is that Corbyn wants to completely re-engineer the party to make it a movement that does not have gaining power through parliamentary elections as its primary objective.

    The 'Labour' brand name is still massively powerful in British politics and around 25% of the voting electorate I am guessing will vote that way no matter who is in charge, without thought.

    That is one of Labour's biggest strengths and weaknesses at the same time.
    At the 2015 election Labour got >50% of the vote in Rotherham.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,582
    At least ten kids taken to the fireworks in Nice last night are dead. Horrible, just horrible.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Lib Dems winning in LEAVE Cornwall despite being most pro REMAIN party.

    Must be just local candidate and circumstances not a systemic swing.
  • ThrakThrak Posts: 494
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    John_M said:

    ydoethur said:

    Osborne's allies threatening May, who has a majority of 12 (16) for announcing he was sacked.

    How Machiavellian do people think she is? Could she get round her general election pledge by forcing the loss of her majority, leaving government unworkable, and going to the country blaming it on posh failed chancellor Osborne's personal spite?

    And if so, would she be the first PM since Baldwin to top 50% of the vote and the first since Macdonald to top 500 seats?

    I'm still not getting the idea that the Tories will gain votes at the next election, especially if it's early. They might gain share if some who did vote labour are put off by them now, and seats if labour split, but i'd be v surprised if they get to 40% let alone 50%.
    I agree. There's not a lot of love for politicians of any flavour. I think May might even lose ground. The PLP are in pieces but Labour's polling is OK.
    What terrifies the Labour moderates the most is not that Corbyn will lose, but that he will lose and not particularly worse than Ed Miliband.

    I think that what terrifies them most is that Corbyn wants to completely re-engineer the party to make it a movement that does not have gaining power through parliamentary elections as its primary objective.

    The 'Labour' brand name is still massively powerful in British politics and around 25% of the voting electorate I am guessing will vote that way no matter who is in charge, without thought.

    That is one of Labour's biggest strengths and weaknesses at the same time.
    I think it would be very much challenged if there was a sitting and defecting labour MP, who would likely retain a large number of votes.

    On the subject of Nice, apart from offering my sympathy with France and the victims, there's littke that can be said that would be of any use. Beware, however, of those who offer a simple solution. the 'obvious' way forward. To deal with this is so complicated and will have to be so multifaceted and multinational that it can't be reduced down to simplistic slogans. I fear in people's anger they will vote for and support the 'simple answer' people, which would lead us backwards.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited July 2016
    Spotted a couple of new appts

    Ben Gummer is now Paymaster General
    Jeremy Wright is still AG

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/news/dods-people/77259/updating-live-theresa-mays
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518

    rcs1000 said:

    How much coal gets burnt to fully charge an EV in the UK?

    Almost none. See: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
    Surprising current figure given that in 2015 30% of UK electricity came from coal.. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/447632/DUKES_2015_Chapter_5.pdf

    But if the current number is the new normal, how much gas is burnt to charge an EV?
    A "well-to-wheels" analysis of pure EVs including mining and shipping across the world the horribly difficult to purify neodymium for the magnets is not pretty, although also not easy to do accurately.

    EVs make sense for small range city cars to reduce local air pollution in population centres. I very much doubt they will significantly impact emissions of GHGs. One big reasons is the raw materials to make millions of electric cars and batteries are certainly not easily suppliable currently.

    Hybrids are a better bet but it is not trivial to calculate the net effects (and those you can easily find on google are generally highly biased)
    Which is why the Li-S battery research is so important. Not only is Sulphur a lot cheaper, the energy density compared to a standard Li-ion is 1.7-2.2x higher and they have theoretically a higher number of recharge cycles.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    I not too sure what the apology should be for.

    They didn't win the 2010 election and therefore were not in a position to implement the tuition fee policy and by going into Coalition they helped to provide five years of stable government. A further bonus was the end of the dreadful Gordon Brown administration.

    Whilst in 2015 the electorate were brutal to the LibDems I for one am grateful for the part they played in the 2010-15 government.
    Indeed.

    It'll be interesting to see how history views the 2010-15 coalition government. I reckon it'll be better than hey were viewed at the time.
    It's a bloody shame the Coalition didn't continue: we'd still be in the EU now if it had.
    I liked the coalition and would have been happy for it to continue, altho I'm glad we got the referendum. I thought the LibDems were useful in toning down some Tory policies even if tuition fees wasnt one of them and it's not an issue in my top ten anyway. I wish there was someone there to get HMG to bin the selling off of housing association homes. I haven't heard much about that tho so maybe it's been quietly dropped? hope so.
    Given it appears may secretly despised Cameroonian given her reshuffling, we could be longing for the days of the coalition soon. We being those who were happy with wet Tories anyway.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769

    Mr. F, cheers for that info (I do forget bits and pieces).

    Having only one son was a bit unfortunate, but sometimes such things can't be helped.

    Mr. Pulpstar, I agree. Corbyn may be testing Labour's floor. The tipping point comes if the Lib Dems and/or UKIP start making wholesale gains.

    The thing is it would be far easier to get rid of Corbyn if Labour had an obviously lower floor.

    The locals weren't great but the results were definitely respectable particularly compared to Rallings & Thrasher expectations. As of now there's no particular evidence of collapse either in opinion polls or local election results.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,656

    Lib Dems winning in LEAVE Cornwall despite being most pro REMAIN party.

    Must be just local candidate and circumstances not a systemic swing.

    Or the issue of Europe is overrated as a determinant of votes.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    DaveDave said:

    Assuming Britain won't be electing MEP's in June 2019 UKIP need a strategy. It's going to blow a huge hole in their finances and infrastructure.

    UKIP has some very deep thinking to do about its future. With the UK now leaving the EU, the only calling card that the party has is immigration. Presumably, the numbers coming into the country will decline as a result of Brexit and also as a result of the widely-expected Brexit-caused economic slowdown, so to keep front and centre of people's minds the party will surely have to tack rightwards on this topic. That risks straying into BNP territory unless such a move is very carefully calibrated. It is also gong to have to look at its other policies - and move leftwards if it wants to be a serious, sustainable alternative to Labour in its heartlands. That will be very tricky given the Thatcherite roots of most of the party leadership and membership.

    Here's my forecast. As May/Cameron never controlled ex-EU immigration, they don't want to. Immigration will stay as high, it will just come from different places. That's UKIP's positioning...Tories won't control immigration, yet now they can! Only UKIP will deliver for you.
    In the worst recession we've ever had, net migration troughed at 177k, of which 82k were EU nationals. Immigration will remain high, pretty much whatever we do. No one is expecting a rerun of 2008.

    You might argue that the UK will be in recession while the EU continues to recover, but even with a slowdown our economic growth is likely to be equal to the EZ.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Mr. StClare, ah, that was a good one. The idiots failed to ram through the door, and John Smeaton, baggage handler and crime fighter, knocked one of them out.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576

    Mash has jumped the shark here. Ridiculous to suggest this mindset exists, even satirically.

    'Britain to get absolutely everything it wants from Brexit negotiations

    ..“But go in there British and proud, tell them ‘Full access to the single market, no immigration, and we keep all our subsidies or I’m out that door’ and they’ll cave like the continental cowards they are.

    “Though obviously we do need to meet in the middle on freedom of movement. They can’t come here but I still go wherever I want. That seems fair.”'

    http://tinyurl.com/h76u4ro

    Not really jumping the shark, it's not that much beyond the more optimistic views.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited July 2016
    PlatoSaid said:

    rcs1000 said:

    bunnco said:

    North Norfolk.....
    Not really a surprise. They held it before but inexplicably did not field a candidate last time leaving a paper Conservative candidate to take the seat. With Norman Lamb, one of the rare LibDem MPs and not this time conflicted by (health) minister duties as part of the coalition, it was always one that they would have sought to regain.
    One thing you can say about North Norfolk LibDems is that they are very mobile. The local Tories less so, what with their walking sticks and all.
    I wouldn't read that much into it. Local factors rather than national Renaissance

    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot reporting from the Cote d'Azur, where the penny seems to be dropping Amongst the locals that perhaps Mrs May's QUALIFIED Freedom of Movement might have some merit after all

    I would have thought the scariest lesson from the tragedy yesterday is that you don't need bombs, guns, or to emigrate, etc. Anyone who can get a tourist visa and who can hotwire a truck can do this.
    Apparently the man rented it on Wednesday, and drove it down from the hills just a couple of miles away.

    Where he got the grenades and guns is another matter.
    One report suggested they were fakes and only his personal weapon was real.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,068

    Mr. F, cheers for that info (I do forget bits and pieces).

    Having only one son was a bit unfortunate, but sometimes such things can't be helped.

    Mr. Pulpstar, I agree. Corbyn may be testing Labour's floor. The tipping point comes if the Lib Dems and/or UKIP start making wholesale gains.

    Myriokephalon was one of those battles where each side thinks they've done worse than in fact was the case. Manuel thought it was a heavy defeat (it wasn't); the Turkish Sultan was appalled by the casualties that his army had taken, even though he'd won on points. So, both sides retreated. But, what was decisive was that it was the last time the Byzantines went on the offensive against the Turks in Asia Minor.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    How much coal gets burnt to fully charge an EV in the UK?

    Almost none. See: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
    Surprising current figure given that in 2015 30% of UK electricity came from coal.. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/447632/DUKES_2015_Chapter_5.pdf

    But if the current number is the new normal, how much gas is burnt to charge an EV?
    A standard EV battery is 60KWh which is 60,000 x 60 x 60 = 216MJ. Natural gas produces 50MJ per kilo so it's 4.2kg of natural gas to recharge the whole battery, but since gas provides about 40% of UK energy that means 1.7kg of gas is required to recharge a battery, or ~2m².
    You also have to account for the fact that:

    - natural gas power station is only 50-60% efficient
    - there are transmission losses
    - there are charging losses

    But even so, it's amazingly little isn't it?
    So looking at around 5kg of gas, plus all the other sources used?

    How far can it go on one charge?

    I can go around a hundred miles on three kilos of diesel
    60KWh batteries are good for 200 miles.
    Is that in ideal conditions? How about at night when it is cold and raining heavily?

    Might have improved now but the Nissan Leaf would not even get me the 50 miles to central London on a rainy winter's evening. And the cost of it! £20K plus for a car that could not be guaranteed to take me fifty miles up the road.

    I have no doubt that electric cars are the future and that advances are being made, but they have a long way to go in terms of range and, especially, cost before they become viable outside the big cities.

    In maybe ten years when electric cars are becoming viable then I think the whole idea of car ownership may well have shifted. Autonomous, i.e. self driving cars, are going to happen (I know Mr. Jessop's objections but I think he is wrong) and when they do I think we will be looking far more at an Uber style solution, save for the very wealthy.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Mr. Doethur, sounds interesting, if a shade modern.

    Miss Plato, yes, Jacqui Smith made a statement (as Home Secretary) very shortly after being appointed. Not sure what it was.

    Then there were the floods.

    The discovery of two unexploded bombs in London and the Glasgow airport attack - Brown chaired an emergency COBRA meeting.
    The ones in a car outside TigerTiger nightclub? That was an incredibly lucky escape.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    According to Manuel Valls, French PM, France must learn to 'live with terrorism'

    Jeez....
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Lib Dems winning in LEAVE Cornwall despite being most pro REMAIN party.

    Must be just local candidate and circumstances not a systemic swing.

    Or the issue of Europe is overrated as a determinant of votes.
    Especially in Local votes.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    GIN1138 said:

    Lib-Dems Winning Here! :smiley:


    No break through for the Lib Dems until they can have a placard saying Winning Everywhere.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    I not too sure what the apology should be for.

    They didn't win the 2010 election and therefore were not in a position to implement the tuition fee policy and by going into Coalition they helped to provide five years of stable government. A further bonus was the end of the dreadful Gordon Brown administration.

    Whilst in 2015 the electorate were brutal to the LibDems I for one am grateful for the part they played in the 2010-15 government.
    Indeed.

    It'll be interesting to see how history views the 2010-15 coalition government. I reckon it'll be better than hey were viewed at the time.
    It's a bloody shame the Coalition didn't continue: we'd still be in the EU now if it had.
    We still are. Or has A50 been triggered and telescoped since yesterday?

    A lot of water has to flow under a lot of bridges before we are out.
    Yes, but we are being taken away by the tide with no realistic way of preventing that. We're not out yet, but there's no stopping it.
    Events, dear boy, events ... Preferably before 2018 or so, otherwise we're really out on the open sea without a paddle.

    As one example of many benefits, the EU Competition Commisioner's ongoing fight against Google has no legal force if we leave. The UK would have to pay for its own investigation.
    There are events which could stop us, but none realistically before we declare article 50, which may will face enormous pressure to do this year. It's done.
    Pulpstar said:

    kle4 said:


    It's a shame so much of their vote was the anti Tory vote, since I'd like them to be open to working with either side, but saying they won't prop up the Tories makes more sense electorally.

    Well Tim Farron has explicitly rejected this - and the Lib Dems will always be open to negotiations with ALL sides (Though current Labour I'd have ALOT of reservations about (As does Vince Cable !)) to command a majority in the House.
    But has he rejected taking such a stance in theory only, but would in practice never countenance such a course?
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,976

    How much coal gets burnt to fully charge an EV in the UK?

    at average calorific values and efficiencies, about 12kg for the Nissan Leaf 30kWh battery.

    The UK generates about 30% of its electricity from coal and 30% from gas, so in our energy mix about 3.6kg contribution is needed. Or you could move to Scotland where we plan to generate 100% from renewables by 2020 ( currently it is 57%) :).
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited July 2016
    PlatoSaid said:

    Mr. Doethur, sounds interesting, if a shade modern.

    Miss Plato, yes, Jacqui Smith made a statement (as Home Secretary) very shortly after being appointed. Not sure what it was.

    Then there were the floods.

    The discovery of two unexploded bombs in London and the Glasgow airport attack - Brown chaired an emergency COBRA meeting.
    The ones in a car outside TigerTiger nightclub? That was an incredibly lucky escape.
    Incredibly lucky - an ambulance crew were attending a minor incident at the nightclub when they noticed suspicious fumes. The second devise was discovered a few streets away.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,656

    ydoethur said:

    Osborne's allies threatening May, who has a majority of 12 (16) for announcing he was sacked.

    How Machiavellian do people think she is? Could she get round her general election pledge by forcing the loss of her majority, leaving government unworkable, and going to the country blaming it on posh failed chancellor Osborne's personal spite?

    And if so, would she be the first PM since Baldwin to top 50% of the vote and the first since Macdonald to top 500 seats?

    I'm still not getting the idea that the Tories will gain votes at the next election, especially if it's early. They might gain share if some who did vote labour are put off by them now, and seats if labour split, but i'd be v surprised if they get to 40% let alone 50%.
    Yes, 50% isn't really possible without significant positive support which isn't there at the moment. 40% is certainly realistic though and could be combined with a 15% lead over Labour even without a formal split, if Corbyn simply looks incompetent and with questionable associates (something which events like today's will consistently bring back to the fore). I've not checked the figures but I'd be surprised if a 40-25 result didn't produce a 100+ Tory majority. If Labour did split into two factions, both running candidates against each other, then you could easily see a 200+ majority as Lab/SDP2/LD/UKIP/Grn trip over each other to establish themselves as the opposition to the Tories, even with some local pacts.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    taffys said:

    According to Manuel Valls, French PM, France must learn to 'live with terrorism'

    Jeez....

    On the news this morning they said that France had been 'in a state of emergency' since the Paris attacks. Over a year. And they'd extended that for another 3 months today.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_emergency_in_France
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    taffys said:

    According to Manuel Valls, French PM, France must learn to 'live with terrorism'

    Jeez....

    It must be bloody awful to live there right now - Hebdo, Bataclan, Nice and beheaded police chief and his spouse filmed and stuck on Facebook. All in just 18 months.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    How much coal gets burnt to fully charge an EV in the UK?

    Almost none. See: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
    Surprising current figure given that in 2015 30% of UK electricity came from coal.. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/447632/DUKES_2015_Chapter_5.pdf

    But if the current number is the new normal, how much gas is burnt to charge an EV?
    A standard EV battery is 60KWh which is 60,000 x 60 x 60 = 216MJ. Natural gas produces 50MJ per kilo so it's 4.2kg of natural gas to recharge the whole battery, but since gas provides about 40% of UK energy that means 1.7kg of gas is required to recharge a battery, or ~2m².
    You also have to account for the fact that:

    - natural gas power station is only 50-60% efficient
    - there are transmission losses
    - there are charging losses

    But even so, it's amazingly little isn't it?
    So looking at around 5kg of gas, plus all the other sources used?

    How far can it go on one charge?

    I can go around a hundred miles on three kilos of diesel
    60KWh batteries are good for 200 miles.
    Is that in ideal conditions? How about at night when it is cold and raining heavily?

    Might have improved now but the Nissan Leaf would not even get me the 50 miles to central London on a rainy winter's evening. And the cost of it! £20K plus for a car that could not be guaranteed to take me fifty miles up the road.

    I have no doubt that electric cars are the future and that advances are being made, but they have a long way to go in terms of range and, especially, cost before they become viable outside the big cities.

    In maybe ten years when electric cars are becoming viable then I think the whole idea of car ownership may well have shifted. Autonomous, i.e. self driving cars, are going to happen (I know Mr. Jessop's objections but I think he is wrong) and when they do I think we will be looking far more at an Uber style solution, save for the very wealthy.
    The battery in the Nissan leaf is a paltry 24KWh one. That should be good for about 70 to 80 miles.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576

    Lib Dems winning in LEAVE Cornwall despite being most pro REMAIN party.

    Must be just local candidate and circumstances not a systemic swing.

    Or the issue of Europe is overrated as a determinant of votes.
    Certainly now the issue is settled
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''It must be bloody awful to live there right now - Hebdo, Bataclan, Nice and beheaded police chief and his spouse filmed and stuck on Facebook. All in just 18 months.''

    And an economy going nowhere under the yoke of socialism. What a dreadful mess Hollande has made of his country.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Just not Tesla who have overspent and underdelivered.

    Musk's modus operandi is always to overpromise as he knows that is always the way to push forward.

    A man on Mars by 2025 - doubt it, but he'll get there by 2035/40 maybe whereas a target date of 2040 right now would mean never.
    Yes, but Tesla are a public company, not his play toy. Their profitability plan depends on being able to ship over 500k Model 3 EVs per year, they are gearing up to manufacture 400k in 2018.
    Musk also gets huge subsidies ($5 billion was touted last year) from the American government which might explain some of the hype: it is needed to keep the politicians on board.
    http://www.wsj.com/articles/elon-musks-subsidy-aggregation-1466638430

    It is a lesson our government should learn. Free markets are for the birds and conference speeches. Protectionism, monopolies and subsidies at home until your companies are big enough to dominate overseas markets.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139
    sarissa said:

    How much coal gets burnt to fully charge an EV in the UK?

    at average calorific values and efficiencies, about 12kg for the Nissan Leaf 30kWh battery.

    The UK generates about 30% of its electricity from coal and 30% from gas, so in our energy mix about 3.6kg contribution is needed. Or you could move to Scotland where we plan to generate 100% from renewables by 2020 ( currently it is 57%) :).
    It'll be interesting to see how well Scotland manages that target, what the effects on prices to consumer are, and how the interconnecting lines to the rest of the UK manage on cold, windless days. ;)
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Two wickets in an over for Woakes 310-7 and then 8
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    taffys said:

    According to Manuel Valls, French PM, France must learn to 'live with terrorism'

    Jeez....

    Very poor choice of words, if that's not an idiomatic translation.

    Also reveals a remarkably defeatist mindset. As in Petain 1940 defeatist.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,505
    kle4 said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    I not too sure what the apology should be for.

    They didn't win the 2010 election and therefore were not in a position to implement the tuition fee policy and by going into Coalition they helped to provide five years of stable government. A further bonus was the end of the dreadful Gordon Brown administration.

    Whilst in 2015 the electorate were brutal to the LibDems I for one am grateful for the part they played in the 2010-15 government.
    Indeed.

    It'll be interesting to see how history views the 2010-15 coalition government. I reckon it'll be better than hey were viewed at the time.
    It's a bloody shame the Coalition didn't continue: we'd still be in the EU now if it had.
    I liked the coalition and would have been happy for it to continue, altho I'm glad we got the referendum. I thought the LibDems were useful in toning down some Tory policies even if tuition fees wasnt one of them and it's not an issue in my top ten anyway. I wish there was someone there to get HMG to bin the selling off of housing association homes. I haven't heard much about that tho so maybe it's been quietly dropped? hope so.
    Given it appears may secretly despised Cameroonian given her reshuffling, we could be longing for the days of the coalition soon. We being those who were happy with wet Tories anyway.
    I was longing for a tory minority government, that's the basket most of my betting eggs were in. 6/7 seats too many damn you!
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,756
    John_M said:

    wasd said:



    I believe there is a pre-9/11 Tom Clancy novel that covers civilian airliners as weapons (I've not read it so I may well be mistaken)

    That's correct. "Debt of Honor". A Japanese pilot flies a Jumbo into the Capitol (iirc). Also notable for the first use of a cyber attack to cripple the US financial system. Man wrote good thrillers before he turned into a complete wingnut. Red Storm Rising is still a favourite.
    Debt of Honour is about as far as I'd go. As soon as get President Ryan he disappears up Rush Limbaugh's backside

This discussion has been closed.