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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LDs gain four seats in their best night of local by-electio

SystemSystem Posts: 12,265
edited July 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LDs gain four seats in their best night of local by-elections for at least a decade

Wibsey (Lab defence) on Bradford
Result: Labour 1,207 (51% +9%), United Kingdom Independence Party 655 (27% -12%), Conservative 451 (19% +5%), Liberal Democrat 70 (3% -2%)
Labour HOLD with a majority of 552 (24%) on a swing of 10.5% from UKIP to Lab

Read the full story here


«13456

Comments

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,985
    edited July 2016
    Good for the Lib Dems.

    A poor night for Labour and UKIP.

    And thanks Harry,

    Edit: and first.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,591
    Second?
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    It appears that the LibDem's superior organisation is proving a bonus once again, with turnout in some of these places well down. By contrast whilst UKIP have fielded minority candidates elsewhere, they have lost their seat by default.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    Winning here
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Boris
    Apparently the boos he received at the french embassy were from Brits. The french applauded.

    twitter.com/ladylilo2/status/753689008442597376
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,270
    Difficult to make a whole heap of sense of these results, given the huge difference in candidates standing between this time and last.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    UKIP candidates in 3/10 contests. They don't look like an organisation likely to threaten Labour, whatever its current problems.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,591
    MarqueeMark said:

    Difficult to make a whole heap of sense of these results, given the huge difference in candidates standing between this time and last.

    Were the two gains from 'Independent' not actually from seats vacated by Indy LDs? All rather confusing.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Cheers for this, Mr. Hayfield.

    Mr. Dave, on a national basis, no. But in certain areas, the purples are a threat to Labour.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    If no full statement on Nice by PM or Foreign Sec by 10 a.m. I am going to be severely disappointed.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    anotherDave said:

    UKIP candidates in 3/10 contests. They don't look like an organisation likely to threaten Labour, whatever its current problems.

    I think UKIP will become alot more professional with Stephen Woolfe in charge. One of Nige's weaknesses was failing to put in good structures for local by-election evenings like this.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,334
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Cheers for this, Mr. Hayfield.

    Mr. Dave, on a national basis, no. But in certain areas, the purples are a threat to Labour.

    I'd also say that they don't really care about local elections, UKIP are focused on winning at Westminster. I doubt they have the capacity or even capability to so the mundane local government stuff. How does a council change national immigration policy or influence the terms of our withdrawal from the EU. The party leadership probably don't view local elections as worth fighting unless there is a candidate willing to do all the work.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    A good show by the Lib Dems - The progressive left are abandoning Labour.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Sandpit said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Difficult to make a whole heap of sense of these results, given the huge difference in candidates standing between this time and last.

    Were the two gains from 'Independent' not actually from seats vacated by Indy LDs? All rather confusing.
    That doesn't help the narrative being pushed here; so kindly move along - nothing to see.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,334
    Ishmael_X said:

    If no full statement on Nice by PM or Foreign Sec by 10 a.m. I am going to be severely disappointed.

    Why? What difference is it going to make? Dave was very good at this kind of stuff, but it really made no difference when he made a statement to the press about giving our sympathies to the French president and people of France, offered our assistance in any way, ensured that we have well funded intelligence services and had a COBRA meeting overnight. That's about the crux of it.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Ishmael_X said:

    If no full statement on Nice by PM or Foreign Sec by 10 a.m. I am going to be severely disappointed.

    Cameron seems to have managed one already, although could just be he has forgotten he isn't PM anymore.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    MaxPB said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Cheers for this, Mr. Hayfield.

    Mr. Dave, on a national basis, no. But in certain areas, the purples are a threat to Labour.

    I'd also say that they don't really care about local elections, UKIP are focused on winning at Westminster. I doubt they have the capacity or even capability to so the mundane local government stuff. How does a council change national immigration policy or influence the terms of our withdrawal from the EU. The party leadership probably don't view local elections as worth fighting unless there is a candidate willing to do all the work.
    If that is the attitude UKIP will continue to take then they won't break through at Westminster level. Footsoldiers at a council level are a big asset.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,755
    anotherDave said:

    UKIP candidates in 3/10 contests. They don't look like an organisation likely to threaten Labour, whatever its current problems.

    I imagine the party was mostly focused on the Referendum, rather than upcoming local by-elections.

    UKIP cause Labour problems by locking them out of working class seats in the Home Counties, if nothing else.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    JonathanD said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    If no full statement on Nice by PM or Foreign Sec by 10 a.m. I am going to be severely disappointed.

    Cameron seems to have managed one already, although could just be he has forgotten he isn't PM anymore.
    Boris was doorstepped and made an impromptu one about 2hrs ago - one British national hurt.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited July 2016
    MikeSmithson said:

    Agree completely even though I'm a liberal ..... This contributes to the huge death toll that we see each year .....They should be banned.

    My internet connection is a little unstable presently so not all of your post came through but I think your comment is a little drastic ....

    Only a little mind you .... :smiley:
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    anotherDave said:

    Boris
    Apparently the boos he received at the french embassy were from Brits. The french applauded.

    twitter.com/ladylilo2/status/753689008442597376

    Not an unbiased source, alas
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Cheers for this, Mr. Hayfield.

    Mr. Dave, on a national basis, no. But in certain areas, the purples are a threat to Labour.

    I'd also say that they don't really care about local elections, UKIP are focused on winning at Westminster. I doubt they have the capacity or even capability to so the mundane local government stuff. How does a council change national immigration policy or influence the terms of our withdrawal from the EU. The party leadership probably don't view local elections as worth fighting unless there is a candidate willing to do all the work.
    If that is the attitude UKIP will continue to take then they won't break through at Westminster level. Footsoldiers at a council level are a big asset.
    Think that's a wee bit harsh - Kippers have just flogged themselves to win for Brexit. It only ended three weeks ago!

    They need a new leader, some time to recharge and a strategy. I hope Woolfe gets the gig - Labour are clearly losing the plot in a serious way and very vulnerable.
  • hamiltonacehamiltonace Posts: 666
    These results may not be clear but the opportunity for the lib dems has never been better. A middle of the road pro Europe party will have great appeal especially to the young. Now all the lib dens need to do is rethink their student loan policy.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Pulpstar said:

    anotherDave said:

    UKIP candidates in 3/10 contests. They don't look like an organisation likely to threaten Labour, whatever its current problems.

    I think UKIP will become alot more professional with Stephen Woolfe in charge. One of Nige's weaknesses was failing to put in good structures for local by-election evenings like this.
    It also doesn't help that their top men are in Brussels all the time. Once that ends they should become more regimented.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    MaxPB said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    If no full statement on Nice by PM or Foreign Sec by 10 a.m. I am going to be severely disappointed.

    Why? What difference is it going to make? Dave was very good at this kind of stuff, but it really made no difference when he made a statement to the press about giving our sympathies to the French president and people of France, offered our assistance in any way, ensured that we have well funded intelligence services and had a COBRA meeting overnight. That's about the crux of it.
    Just part of the job. Important part.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,591
    PlatoSaid said:

    JonathanD said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    If no full statement on Nice by PM or Foreign Sec by 10 a.m. I am going to be severely disappointed.

    Cameron seems to have managed one already, although could just be he has forgotten he isn't PM anymore.
    Boris was doorstepped and made an impromptu one about 2hrs ago - one British national hurt.
    Is today really the day for the media doorstepping ministers? How long before someone like Boris starts to say "f**k off" every time it happens, and the media start getting into trouble for carrying his words live?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/gdnpolitics/status/753871333239455744
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,998
    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Cheers for this, Mr. Hayfield.

    Mr. Dave, on a national basis, no. But in certain areas, the purples are a threat to Labour.

    I'd also say that they don't really care about local elections, UKIP are focused on winning at Westminster. I doubt they have the capacity or even capability to so the mundane local government stuff. How does a council change national immigration policy or influence the terms of our withdrawal from the EU. The party leadership probably don't view local elections as worth fighting unless there is a candidate willing to do all the work.
    If that is the attitude UKIP will continue to take then they won't break through at Westminster level. Footsoldiers at a council level are a big asset.
    Not necessarily, although it would severely weaken their potential campaigning capacity. UKIP has always sought to win on national issues and as such, a national campaign can work. After all, for all the Lib Dems' concentration on local issues, where has it got them at Westminster? They're at their weakest in 40 years. And the one does follow on from the other. All that local campaigning and tactical voting suddenly came up against the reality of power and their whole strategy collapsed under the internal contradictions of pursuing such a localised approach.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,591
    JonathanD said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    If no full statement on Nice by PM or Foreign Sec by 10 a.m. I am going to be severely disappointed.

    Cameron seems to have managed one already, although could just be he has forgotten he isn't PM anymore.
    Must have been a very weird night for Cameron, to be not involved in these situations any more.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited July 2016
    Scott_P said:

    ttps://twitter.com/gdnpolitics/status/753871333239455744

    Both Downing St and the Foreign office issued statements 8 hrs ago. – some want a video.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    This resurgence of the yellow peril is excellent news for Auchentennach Fine Pies and with the fall in the pound we are looking forward to an export boom !!

    Vote LibDem You Know It Makes Sense ....

    For JackW's wallet .... :smile:
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    "LDs gain four seats in their best night of local by-elections for at least a decade"

    Lib Dems, spinning here.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,930
    anotherDave said:

    UKIP candidates in 3/10 contests. They don't look like an organisation likely to threaten Labour, whatever its current problems.

    The goal is open, but UKIP refuses to score.

    A new leader may change things, but right now I'm not seeing it.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    How much coal gets burnt to fully charge an EV in the UK?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,591
    SimonStClare said:

    Scott_P said:

    ttps://twitter.com/gdnpolitics/status/753871333239455744

    Both Downing St and the Foreign office issued statements 8 hrs ago. – some want a video.
    Some of us have been doing our best to avoid seeing any videos online for the past few hours. :(
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,930
    Pulpstar said:

    anotherDave said:

    UKIP candidates in 3/10 contests. They don't look like an organisation likely to threaten Labour, whatever its current problems.

    I think UKIP will become alot more professional with Stephen Woolfe in charge. One of Nige's weaknesses was failing to put in good structures for local by-election evenings like this.
    UKIP also need to have a simple, deliverable, set of priorities for being a local party. If you elect a UKIP coucillor, he or she will fight for the following things: a, b, c.

    It's interesting: the smaller the constituency, the better the LibDems do, and the worse UKIP does. When the constituency is big (the Euros, for example) this is reversed.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Sandpit said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Difficult to make a whole heap of sense of these results, given the huge difference in candidates standing between this time and last.

    Were the two gains from 'Independent' not actually from seats vacated by Indy LDs? All rather confusing.
    The Trowbridge gain Yes ( the former Independent councillor was ex Lib Dem though originally elected as Labour ) but not the Cornwall seat
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,930
    Sandpit said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Difficult to make a whole heap of sense of these results, given the huge difference in candidates standing between this time and last.

    Were the two gains from 'Independent' not actually from seats vacated by Indy LDs? All rather confusing.
    In both cases, a LibDem stood last time around, and lost. So no I don't think so.
  • YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    Assuming Britain won't be electing MEP's in June 2019 UKIP need a strategy. It's going to blow a huge hole in their finances and infrastructure.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,930
    JonnyJimmy said:

    How much coal gets burnt to fully charge an EV in the UK?

    Almost none. See: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,591
    MarkSenior said:

    Sandpit said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Difficult to make a whole heap of sense of these results, given the huge difference in candidates standing between this time and last.

    Were the two gains from 'Independent' not actually from seats vacated by Indy LDs? All rather confusing.
    The Trowbridge gain Yes ( the former Independent councillor was ex Lib Dem though originally elected as Labour ) but not the Cornwall seat
    Ah okay. Happy to be corrected.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    david_herdson said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Cheers for this, Mr. Hayfield.

    Mr. Dave, on a national basis, no. But in certain areas, the purples are a threat to Labour.

    I'd also say that they don't really care about local elections, UKIP are focused on winning at Westminster. I doubt they have the capacity or even capability to so the mundane local government stuff. How does a council change national immigration policy or influence the terms of our withdrawal from the EU. The party leadership probably don't view local elections as worth fighting unless there is a candidate willing to do all the work.
    If that is the attitude UKIP will continue to take then they won't break through at Westminster level. Footsoldiers at a council level are a big asset.
    Not necessarily, although it would severely weaken their potential campaigning capacity. UKIP has always sought to win on national issues and as such, a national campaign can work. After all, for all the Lib Dems' concentration on local issues, where has it got them at Westminster? They're at their weakest in 40 years. And the one does follow on from the other. All that local campaigning and tactical voting suddenly came up against the reality of power and their whole strategy collapsed under the internal contradictions of pursuing such a localised approach.
    The Lib Dems have just paid a very heavy price for being part of a coalition Gov't with a party that quite honestly most party members don't like. But it is NOT regarded as a mistake - far from it. Now there is no coalition, and with Labour in turmoil there is room for a centre-left party to fill a pretty massive void. There is no point worrying about where the LDs are right now, the future is the important bit !
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    YellowSubmarine said:

    Assuming Britain won't be electing MEP's in June 2019 UKIP need a strategy. It's going to blow a huge hole in their finances and infrastructure.

    Wacky suggestion I'm sure but how about "Mission Accomplished, time to disband"?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,591
    edited July 2016
    Philip_Thompson said:

    YellowSubmarine said:

    Assuming Britain won't be electing MEP's in June 2019 UKIP need a strategy. It's going to blow a huge hole in their finances and infrastructure.

    Wacky suggestion I'm sure but how about "Mission Accomplished, time to disband"?
    Not if it means some of their more, umm, colourful characters joining (or rejoining) the Tories, no. A good point about large amounts of UKIP finding coming from the EU in one way or another though, hence the row last year between Carswell and Farage over Short Money from the UK Parliament.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,985
    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    They already have. You must have missed the song. ;)

    Where's Labour's apology for introducing tuition fees in the first place, and then increasing them despite a manifesto pledge not to?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,001
    Pulpstar said:

    david_herdson said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Cheers for this, Mr. Hayfield.

    Mr. Dave, on a national basis, no. But in certain areas, the purples are a threat to Labour.

    I'd also say that they don't really care about local elections, UKIP are focused on winning at Westminster. I doubt they have the capacity or even capability to so the mundane local government stuff. How does a council change national immigration policy or influence the terms of our withdrawal from the EU. The party leadership probably don't view local elections as worth fighting unless there is a candidate willing to do all the work.
    If that is the attitude UKIP will continue to take then they won't break through at Westminster level. Footsoldiers at a council level are a big asset.
    Not necessarily, although it would severely weaken their potential campaigning capacity. UKIP has always sought to win on national issues and as such, a national campaign can work. After all, for all the Lib Dems' concentration on local issues, where has it got them at Westminster? They're at their weakest in 40 years. And the one does follow on from the other. All that local campaigning and tactical voting suddenly came up against the reality of power and their whole strategy collapsed under the internal contradictions of pursuing such a localised approach.
    The Lib Dems have just paid a very heavy price for being part of a coalition Gov't with a party that quite honestly most party members don't like. But it is NOT regarded as a mistake - far from it. Now there is no coalition, and with Labour in turmoil there is room for a centre-left party to fill a pretty massive void. There is no point worrying about where the LDs are right now, the future is the important bit !
    They have a leadership vacuum. One of their advantages has always been appealing leaders - Ashdown, Kennedy, Clegg (pre-coalition). Farron doesn't seem to be in the same class.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    I not too sure what the apology should be for.

    They didn't win the 2010 election and therefore were not in a position to implement the tuition fee policy and by going into Coalition they helped to provide five years of stable government. A further bonus was the end of the dreadful Gordon Brown administration.

    Whilst in 2015 the electorate were brutal to the LibDems I for one am grateful for the part they played in the 2010-15 government.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    Off topic: Pokemon Go is turning into the most amazing social phenomenon in yonks.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,998
    Four Lib Dem gains but the biggest *vote* was 620 so these really are piddly little contests with unstable lineups from election to election and, presumably, larger personal votes (proportionately) than would be the case in county council, metropolitan areas or in London.

    Will be interesting to see whether the possible uptick in local elections (which has been apparent to some degree for a while), is reflected in the national polls. Again, there's been a little evidence that there might be a comeback underway - which frankly, given the splits in the Tories and Labour, there ought to be - but that evidence is mixed and while Mori scored them ahead of UKIP recently for the first time since September (by anyone), another pollster found them on only 4%, which was their lowest score in any poll since the early 1990s.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,562
    hamiltonace said:

    These results may not be clear but the opportunity for the lib dems has never been better. A middle of the road pro Europe party will have great appeal especially to the young. Now all the lib dens need to do is rethink their student loan policy.

    LibDems could be staring at an open goal within months, if Labour continue down its current road.
  • MontyHallMontyHall Posts: 226
    edited July 2016
    Philip_Thompson said:

    YellowSubmarine said:

    Assuming Britain won't be electing MEP's in June 2019 UKIP need a strategy. It's going to blow a huge hole in their finances and infrastructure.

    Wacky suggestion I'm sure but how about "Mission Accomplished, time to disband"?
    There are plenty of examples of successes calling it a day at the right time, despite the temptation to cling on and milk the brand - The Jam, Fawlty Towers managed it where The Rolling Stones and Only Fools and Horses didn't. It looks as though Ricky Gervais is struggling to leave David Brent, hope he does. It must be tough.

    I cant imagine Nigel Farage will be able to resist a comeback, but if he does restrain himself, he and UKIP would have timed it just right.

    Leave 'em laughing!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,985
    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    I not too sure what the apology should be for.

    They didn't win the 2010 election and therefore were not in a position to implement the tuition fee policy and by going into Coalition they helped to provide five years of stable government. A further bonus was the end of the dreadful Gordon Brown administration.

    Whilst in 2015 the electorate were brutal to the LibDems I for one am grateful for the part they played in the 2010-15 government.
    Indeed.

    It'll be interesting to see how history views the 2010-15 coalition government. I reckon it'll be better than hey were viewed at the time.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,998
    Pulpstar said:

    david_herdson said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Cheers for this, Mr. Hayfield.

    Mr. Dave, on a national basis, no. But in certain areas, the purples are a threat to Labour.

    I'd also say that they don't really care about local elections, UKIP are focused on winning at Westminster. I doubt they have the capacity or even capability to so the mundane local government stuff. How does a council change national immigration policy or influence the terms of our withdrawal from the EU. The party leadership probably don't view local elections as worth fighting unless there is a candidate willing to do all the work.
    If that is the attitude UKIP will continue to take then they won't break through at Westminster level. Footsoldiers at a council level are a big asset.
    Not necessarily, although it would severely weaken their potential campaigning capacity. UKIP has always sought to win on national issues and as such, a national campaign can work. After all, for all the Lib Dems' concentration on local issues, where has it got them at Westminster? They're at their weakest in 40 years. And the one does follow on from the other. All that local campaigning and tactical voting suddenly came up against the reality of power and their whole strategy collapsed under the internal contradictions of pursuing such a localised approach.
    The Lib Dems have just paid a very heavy price for being part of a coalition Gov't with a party that quite honestly most party members don't like. But it is NOT regarded as a mistake - far from it. Now there is no coalition, and with Labour in turmoil there is room for a centre-left party to fill a pretty massive void. There is no point worrying about where the LDs are right now, the future is the important bit !
    Going into government wasn't the mistake; political parties should always aim to put their policies into practice. The mistake was in positioning themselves so poorly before going into government. Part of that was getting too close to Labour in the 1990s, which proved impossible to cleanly unravel, part of it was campaigning errors, such as the tuition fee saga, but part of it was in being excessively local and so allowing expectations to be built that could not be delivered upon. A less vanilla approach and a more equidistant approach might have cost a few seats between 1997 and 2010 but would have been more likely to save them in 2015.
  • YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    Philip_Thompson said:

    YellowSubmarine said:

    Assuming Britain won't be electing MEP's in June 2019 UKIP need a strategy. It's going to blow a huge hole in their finances and infrastructure.

    Wacky suggestion I'm sure but how about "Mission Accomplished, time to disband"?
    None of the socio economic factors that have driven UKIP are going away. In fact they are almost certainly going to get worse. If they handle the subsequent betrayal myth about Brexit properly they'll be plenty of business for them. Though that's a big If.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,783
    YellowSubmarine said:

    Assuming Britain won't be electing MEP's in June 2019 UKIP need a strategy. It's going to blow a huge hole in their finances and infrastructure.

    UKIP has some very deep thinking to do about its future. With the UK now leaving the EU, the only calling card that the party has is immigration. Presumably, the numbers coming into the country will decline as a result of Brexit and also as a result of the widely-expected Brexit-caused economic slowdown, so to keep front and centre of people's minds the party will surely have to tack rightwards on this topic. That risks straying into BNP territory unless such a move is very carefully calibrated. It is also gong to have to look at its other policies - and move leftwards if it wants to be a serious, sustainable alternative to Labour in its heartlands. That will be very tricky given the Thatcherite roots of most of the party leadership and membership.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,562
    JosiasJessop said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    I not too sure what the apology should be for.

    They didn't win the 2010 election and therefore were not in a position to implement the tuition fee policy and by going into Coalition they helped to provide five years of stable government. A further bonus was the end of the dreadful Gordon Brown administration.

    Whilst in 2015 the electorate were brutal to the LibDems I for one am grateful for the part they played in the 2010-15 government.
    Indeed.

    It'll be interesting to see how history views the 2010-15 coalition government. I reckon it'll be better than hey were viewed at the time.
    It's a bloody shame the Coalition didn't continue: we'd still be in the EU now if it had.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    rcs1000 said:

    JonnyJimmy said:

    How much coal gets burnt to fully charge an EV in the UK?

    Almost none. See: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
    Surprising current figure given that in 2015 30% of UK electricity came from coal.. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/447632/DUKES_2015_Chapter_5.pdf

    But if the current number is the new normal, how much gas is burnt to charge an EV?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    FrankBooth said:

    Pulpstar said:

    david_herdson said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Cheers for this, Mr. Hayfield.

    Mr. Dave, on a national basis, no. But in certain areas, the purples are a threat to Labour.

    I'd also say that they don't really care about local elections, UKIP are focused on winning at Westminster. I doubt they have the capacity or even capability to so the mundane local government stuff. How does a council change national immigration policy or influence the terms of our withdrawal from the EU. The party leadership probably don't view local elections as worth fighting unless there is a candidate willing to do all the work.
    If that is the attitude UKIP will continue to take then they won't break through at Westminster level. Footsoldiers at a council level are a big asset.
    Not necessarily, although it would severely weaken their potential campaigning capacity. UKIP has always sought to win on national issues and as such, a national campaign can work. After all, for all the Lib Dems' concentration on local issues, where has it got them at Westminster? They're at their weakest in 40 years. And the one does follow on from the other. All that local campaigning and tactical voting suddenly came up against the reality of power and their whole strategy collapsed under the internal contradictions of pursuing such a localised approach.
    The Lib Dems have just paid a very heavy price for being part of a coalition Gov't with a party that quite honestly most party members don't like. But it is NOT regarded as a mistake - far from it. Now there is no coalition, and with Labour in turmoil there is room for a centre-left party to fill a pretty massive void. There is no point worrying about where the LDs are right now, the future is the important bit !
    They have a leadership vacuum. One of their advantages has always been appealing leaders - Ashdown, Kennedy, Clegg (pre-coalition). Farron doesn't seem to be in the same class.
    No, Labour has a (massive) leadership vacuum due to the continual PLP/NEC undermining of Corbyn & UKIP has a (temporary) leadership vacuum having just won its biggest fight in history and is a party in transition from the Farage years to Woolfe.

    There is no leadership "vacuum" for the Cons, Greens or Lib Dems.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    FrankBooth said:

    Pulpstar said:

    david_herdson said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Cheers for this, Mr. Hayfield.

    Mr. Dave, on a national basis, no. But in certain areas, the purples are a threat to Labour.

    I'd also say that they don't really care about local elections, UKIP are focused on winning at Westminster. I doubt they have the capacity or even capability to so the mundane local government stuff. How does a council change national immigration policy or influence the terms of our withdrawal from the EU. The party leadership probably don't view local elections as worth fighting unless there is a candidate willing to do all the work.
    If that is the attitude UKIP will continue to take then they won't break through at Westminster level. Footsoldiers at a council level are a big asset.
    Not necessarily, although it would severely weaken their potential campaigning capacity. UKIP has always sought to win on national issues and as such, a national campaign can work. After all, for all the Lib Dems' concentration on local issues, where has it got them at Westminster? They're at their weakest in 40 years. And the one does follow on from the other. All that local campaigning and tactical voting suddenly came up against the reality of power and their whole strategy collapsed under the internal contradictions of pursuing such a localised approach.
    The Lib Dems have just paid a very heavy price for being part of a coalition Gov't with a party that quite honestly most party members don't like. But it is NOT regarded as a mistake - far from it. Now there is no coalition, and with Labour in turmoil there is room for a centre-left party to fill a pretty massive void. There is no point worrying about where the LDs are right now, the future is the important bit !
    They have a leadership vacuum. One of their advantages has always been appealing leaders - Ashdown, Kennedy, Clegg (pre-coalition). Farron doesn't seem to be in the same class.
    Several years ago, NPXMP posted about the frustration many Labourites felt re LDs. They campaigned as Not Tories in the South, and Not Labour in the North. They'd got away for it years too.

    Well, as we all know - that strategy came totally unstuck when they had to deliver on their apple pie manifesto.

    What Kippers can learn from this is anyone's guess. Be more coherent? Play the same game and hope to never end up in Coalition? Seek to pick up local seats and still operate as a serious Five Star style pressure group?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Ishmael_X said:

    If no full statement on Nice by PM or Foreign Sec by 10 a.m. I am going to be severely disappointed.

    Hours ago.

    https://twitter.com/foreignoffice/status/753881243113123840
    https://twitter.com/foreignoffice/status/753881589025734656
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    rottenborough said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    I not too sure what the apology should be for.

    They didn't win the 2010 election and therefore were not in a position to implement the tuition fee policy and by going into Coalition they helped to provide five years of stable government. A further bonus was the end of the dreadful Gordon Brown administration.

    Whilst in 2015 the electorate were brutal to the LibDems I for one am grateful for the part they played in the 2010-15 government.
    Indeed.

    It'll be interesting to see how history views the 2010-15 coalition government. I reckon it'll be better than hey were viewed at the time.
    It's a bloody shame the Coalition didn't continue: we'd still be in the EU now if it had.
    I don't doubt Mr Cameron agrees with you!
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    rottenborough said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    I not too sure what the apology should be for.

    They didn't win the 2010 election and therefore were not in a position to implement the tuition fee policy and by going into Coalition they helped to provide five years of stable government. A further bonus was the end of the dreadful Gordon Brown administration.

    Whilst in 2015 the electorate were brutal to the LibDems I for one am grateful for the part they played in the 2010-15 government.
    Indeed.

    It'll be interesting to see how history views the 2010-15 coalition government. I reckon it'll be better than hey were viewed at the time.
    It's a bloody shame the Coalition didn't continue: we'd still be in the EU now if it had.
    But demonstrably against the will of the people ;)
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    JonnyJimmy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    JonnyJimmy said:

    How much coal gets burnt to fully charge an EV in the UK?

    Almost none. See: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
    Surprising current figure given that in 2015 30% of UK electricity came from coal.. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/447632/DUKES_2015_Chapter_5.pdf

    But if the current number is the new normal, how much gas is burnt to charge an EV?
    and how much of that gas did we buy from Putin.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,985
    rottenborough said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    I not too sure what the apology should be for.

    They didn't win the 2010 election and therefore were not in a position to implement the tuition fee policy and by going into Coalition they helped to provide five years of stable government. A further bonus was the end of the dreadful Gordon Brown administration.

    Whilst in 2015 the electorate were brutal to the LibDems I for one am grateful for the part they played in the 2010-15 government.
    Indeed.

    It'll be interesting to see how history views the 2010-15 coalition government. I reckon it'll be better than hey were viewed at the time.
    It's a bloody shame the Coalition didn't continue: we'd still be in the EU now if it had.
    I'm glad we had the referendum, even if I eventually wasn't convinced by the case for change.

    The referendum was lost because the case for being in the EU was lost, perhaps many years ago. Remaining in even after the case was lost would have just lead to more problems.

    The decision's been made. Let's get on with it.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    edited July 2016
    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    I not too sure what the apology should be for.

    They didn't win the 2010 election and therefore were not in a position to implement the tuition fee policy and by going into Coalition they helped to provide five years of stable government. A further bonus was the end of the dreadful Gordon Brown administration.

    Whilst in 2015 the electorate were brutal to the LibDems I for one am grateful for the part they played in the 2010-15 government.
    The Lib Dems need to deal with political realities. The facts were that they were a key part of the anti-Tory vote. 1983-2010 this vote opted for them in preference to Labour where they could win or when Labour were unpalatable.

    The coalition killed that pillar of support.

    They need that anti Tory vote back. After 10 years in govt, that is the rich seam to mine.

    So they need to make it clear that this time, they will not prop them up.



  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Mr. Pulpstar, it does seem a genuinely innovative approach to mobile gaming.

    Not that I partake, of course. Mobile gaming reached its zenith when Nero had a tabula board on his chariot.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,169
    MontyHall said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    YellowSubmarine said:

    Assuming Britain won't be electing MEP's in June 2019 UKIP need a strategy. It's going to blow a huge hole in their finances and infrastructure.

    Wacky suggestion I'm sure but how about "Mission Accomplished, time to disband"?
    There are plenty of examples of successes calling it a day at the right time, despite the temptation to cling on and milk the brand - The Jam, Fawlty Towers managed it where The Rolling Stones and Only Fools and Horses didn't. It looks as though Ricky Gervais is struggling to leave David Brent, hope he does. It must be tough.

    I cant imagine Nigel Farage will be able to resist a comeback, but if he does restrain himself, he and UKIP would have timed it just right.

    Leave 'em laughing!
    The Anti-Corn Law League would be the nearest parallel, but it was a pressure group rather than a political party.

    The Fair Trade Movement memorably broke itself up in 1895 before achieving its goals, because they thought they were making tariffs less likely not more likely.

    Perhaps UKIP should remember their example.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    JosiasJessop said:

    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    They already have. You must have missed the song. ;)

    Where's Labour's apology for introducing tuition fees in the first place, and then increasing them despite a manifesto pledge not to?
    That is irrelevant, the Lib Dems own this in exactly the same way as that Labour own the banking crisis and the Tories now own Brexit. Politics is not fair.

  • YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    I'm bewildered how anyone can see the Immigration referendum we've just had as being remotely transactional. Who's going to be satisfied with a ( small ) reduction in the minority of immigration that's from the EU ? The entire issue has been recast and turbo charged. Thankfully I suspect we won't be having anymore referendums for quite a while but nevertheless energy can neither be created or destroyed.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,243
    Theresa May’s Cabinet has the lowest proportion of privately-educated ministers in more than 70 years, according to a study by the Sutton Trust.

    70% of the new PM’s cabinet were state-educated - 44% at comprehensive schools and 26% at grammar schools. At 30%, the proportion of independently-schooled ministers is at its lowest since the government of Labour’s Clement Attlee in 1945 with 25%.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jul/15/theresa-may-to-meet-nicola-sturgeon-for-union-talks-politics-live
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,169
    rottenborough said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    I not too sure what the apology should be for.

    They didn't win the 2010 election and therefore were not in a position to implement the tuition fee policy and by going into Coalition they helped to provide five years of stable government. A further bonus was the end of the dreadful Gordon Brown administration.

    Whilst in 2015 the electorate were brutal to the LibDems I for one am grateful for the part they played in the 2010-15 government.
    Indeed.

    It'll be interesting to see how history views the 2010-15 coalition government. I reckon it'll be better than hey were viewed at the time.
    It's a bloody shame the Coalition didn't continue: we'd still be in the EU now if it had.
    We still are. Or has A50 been triggered and telescoped since yesterday?

    A lot of water has to flow under a lot of bridges before we are out.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Indigo said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    If no full statement on Nice by PM or Foreign Sec by 10 a.m. I am going to be severely disappointed.

    Hours ago.

    https://twitter.com/foreignoffice/status/753881243113123840
    https://twitter.com/foreignoffice/status/753881589025734656
    I did say "full".
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited July 2016
    Good morning all. Tired and sombre today. Not just a terrible day, but the worst kind of terrible; an everyday object used as a weapon. Not sure what an effective response looks like.

    Turning to the Lib Dems. Surely their abiding challenge is that they can't realistically hope to form a majority government? They will have to enter coalition II at some point. Therefore positioning is both important and incredibly difficult.

    They had the rationale of the 2008 collapse to justify entering coalition with the Tories. It will be much harder for them next time.

    Its another example of something I'm seeing in many places; change is needed, but I can't see how that necessary change will be effected.
  • bunncobunnco Posts: 169
    North Norfolk.....
    Not really a surprise. They held it before but inexplicably did not field a candidate last time leaving a paper Conservative candidate to take the seat. With Norman Lamb, one of the rare LibDem MPs and not this time conflicted by (health) minister duties as part of the coalition, it was always one that they would have sought to regain.
    One thing you can say about North Norfolk LibDems is that they are very mobile. The local Tories less so, what with their walking sticks and all.
    I wouldn't read that much into it. Local factors rather than national Renaissance

    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot reporting from the Cote d'Azur, where the penny seems to be dropping Amongst the locals that perhaps Mrs May's QUALIFIED Freedom of Movement might have some merit after all
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Sky reporting Nice toll now 84 :unamused:
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,930
    bunnco said:

    North Norfolk.....
    Not really a surprise. They held it before but inexplicably did not field a candidate last time leaving a paper Conservative candidate to take the seat. With Norman Lamb, one of the rare LibDem MPs and not this time conflicted by (health) minister duties as part of the coalition, it was always one that they would have sought to regain.
    One thing you can say about North Norfolk LibDems is that they are very mobile. The local Tories less so, what with their walking sticks and all.
    I wouldn't read that much into it. Local factors rather than national Renaissance

    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot reporting from the Cote d'Azur, where the penny seems to be dropping Amongst the locals that perhaps Mrs May's QUALIFIED Freedom of Movement might have some merit after all

    I would have thought the scariest lesson from the tragedy yesterday is that you don't need bombs, guns, or to emigrate, etc. Anyone who can get a tourist visa and who can hotwire a truck can do this.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    JosiasJessop said:

    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    They already have. You must have missed the song. ;)

    Where's Labour's apology for introducing tuition fees in the first place, and then increasing them despite a manifesto pledge not to?
    The tuition fees business is a load of old rubbish. The country cannot afford to provide free education to 21 and beyond. Time to move on. There's no evidence that fees have prevented a continued rise in university numbers.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,334
    JonnyJimmy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    JonnyJimmy said:

    How much coal gets burnt to fully charge an EV in the UK?

    Almost none. See: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
    Surprising current figure given that in 2015 30% of UK electricity came from coal.. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/447632/DUKES_2015_Chapter_5.pdf

    But if the current number is the new normal, how much gas is burnt to charge an EV?
    A standard EV battery is 60KWh which is 60,000 x 60 x 60 = 216MJ. Natural gas produces 50MJ per kilo so it's 4.2kg of natural gas to recharge the whole battery, but since gas provides about 40% of UK energy that means 1.7kg of gas is required to recharge a battery, or ~2m².
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,169
    Osborne's allies threatening May, who has a majority of 12 (16) for announcing he was sacked.

    How Machiavellian do people think she is? Could she get round her general election pledge by forcing the loss of her majority, leaving government unworkable, and going to the country blaming it on posh failed chancellor Osborne's personal spite?

    And if so, would she be the first PM since Baldwin to top 50% of the vote and the first since Macdonald to top 500 seats?
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited July 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    bunnco said:

    North Norfolk.....
    Not really a surprise. They held it before but inexplicably did not field a candidate last time leaving a paper Conservative candidate to take the seat. With Norman Lamb, one of the rare LibDem MPs and not this time conflicted by (health) minister duties as part of the coalition, it was always one that they would have sought to regain.
    One thing you can say about North Norfolk LibDems is that they are very mobile. The local Tories less so, what with their walking sticks and all.
    I wouldn't read that much into it. Local factors rather than national Renaissance

    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot reporting from the Cote d'Azur, where the penny seems to be dropping Amongst the locals that perhaps Mrs May's QUALIFIED Freedom of Movement might have some merit after all

    I would have thought the scariest lesson from the tragedy yesterday is that you don't need bombs, guns, or to emigrate, etc. Anyone who can get a tourist visa and who can hotwire a truck can do this.
    Apparently the man rented it on Wednesday, and drove it down from the hills just a couple of miles away.

    Where he got the grenades and guns is another matter.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Speaking of current events, I evaluate potential pitfalls in the foreign policy of the Comneni dynasty in the 12th century:
    http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2016/07/manuel-comnenus-man-who-lost-byzantium.html
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    bunnco said:

    North Norfolk.....
    Not really a surprise. They held it before but inexplicably did not field a candidate last time leaving a paper Conservative candidate to take the seat. With Norman Lamb, one of the rare LibDem MPs and not this time conflicted by (health) minister duties as part of the coalition, it was always one that they would have sought to regain.
    One thing you can say about North Norfolk LibDems is that they are very mobile. The local Tories less so, what with their walking sticks and all.
    I wouldn't read that much into it. Local factors rather than national Renaissance

    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot reporting from the Cote d'Azur, where the penny seems to be dropping Amongst the locals that perhaps Mrs May's QUALIFIED Freedom of Movement might have some merit after all

    It's too late to start pointing at Freedom of Movement. It's also pointing in the wrong direction. French and UK Muslims are part of our shared post-colonial heritage. As it stands, around one in twenty Brits are Muslim. One in thirteen French citizens are Muslim.

    You can argue that current migration from Muslim countries isn't helping, and that Schengen doesn't help national CT efforts. Still, the fundamental issue is that sections of the Muslim community are de-integrating from their host country, for a whole range of complex reasons.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited July 2016
    ydoethur said:

    Osborne's allies threatening May, who has a majority of 12 (16) for announcing he was sacked.

    Got a link with names pls?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,840
    The Trowbridge gain was more in name only. They didn't stand against the now deceased ind in 2013, who was a ld for 25 years
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    ydoethur said:

    Osborne's allies threatening May, who has a majority of 12 (16) for announcing he was sacked.

    How Machiavellian do people think she is? Could she get round her general election pledge by forcing the loss of her majority, leaving government unworkable, and going to the country blaming it on posh failed chancellor Osborne's personal spite?

    And if so, would she be the first PM since Baldwin to top 50% of the vote and the first since Macdonald to top 500 seats?

    There's a short piece in The Times today about this. They are understandably very unhappy. I wonder what Cameron thinks today - he was clearly keen on May and saw her as his continuity candidate.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,292
    felix said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    They already have. You must have missed the song. ;)

    Where's Labour's apology for introducing tuition fees in the first place, and then increasing them despite a manifesto pledge not to?
    The tuition fees business is a load of old rubbish. The country cannot afford to provide free education to 21 and beyond. Time to move on. There's no evidence that fees have prevented a continued rise in university numbers.
    The main problem with tuition fees, in my view, is not the principle of charging for education, it's that what you actually get should cost a lot less than £9,000 per year. It should be easily possible to deliver a good quality degree course for around a third of that, thereby not impoverishing a generation.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,840
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Speaking of current events, I evaluate potential pitfalls in the foreign policy of the Comneni dynasty in the 12th century:
    http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2016/07/manuel-comnenus-man-who-lost-byzantium.html

    Who was your favourite comnenus?
  • MontyHallMontyHall Posts: 226
    ydoethur said:

    MontyHall said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    YellowSubmarine said:

    Assuming Britain won't be electing MEP's in June 2019 UKIP need a strategy. It's going to blow a huge hole in their finances and infrastructure.

    Wacky suggestion I'm sure but how about "Mission Accomplished, time to disband"?
    There are plenty of examples of successes calling it a day at the right time, despite the temptation to cling on and milk the brand - The Jam, Fawlty Towers managed it where The Rolling Stones and Only Fools and Horses didn't. It looks as though Ricky Gervais is struggling to leave David Brent, hope he does. It must be tough.

    I cant imagine Nigel Farage will be able to resist a comeback, but if he does restrain himself, he and UKIP would have timed it just right.

    Leave 'em laughing!
    The Anti-Corn Law League would be the nearest parallel, but it was a pressure group rather than a political party.

    The Fair Trade Movement memorably broke itself up in 1895 before achieving its goals, because they thought they were making tariffs less likely not more likely.

    Perhaps UKIP should remember their example.
    Some kind of rebrand at least. "UKIP" should be retired having achieved it's purpose.

    I would suggest "Independent Democrats", and much could then be made of "iD" as its symbol, and "Identity" as it's cause. Maybe then they could merge some of the Labour Leave posse, disenchanted with both Corbyn and Blairites, with the Farage side of UKIP
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,985
    felix said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    They already have. You must have missed the song. ;)

    Where's Labour's apology for introducing tuition fees in the first place, and then increasing them despite a manifesto pledge not to?
    The tuition fees business is a load of old rubbish. The country cannot afford to provide free education to 21 and beyond. Time to move on. There's no evidence that fees have prevented a continued rise in university numbers.
    Indeed. Although the idea that university is the answer for 50% of all children is also somewhat dubious to me.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,169
    edited July 2016
    PlatoSaid said:

    rcs1000 said:

    bunnco said:

    North Norfolk.....
    Not really a surprise. They held it before but inexplicably did not field a candidate last time leaving a paper Conservative candidate to take the seat. With Norman Lamb, one of the rare LibDem MPs and not this time conflicted by (health) minister duties as part of the coalition, it was always one that they would have sought to regain.
    One thing you can say about North Norfolk LibDems is that they are very mobile. The local Tories less so, what with their walking sticks and all.
    I wouldn't read that much into it. Local factors rather than national Renaissance

    Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot reporting from the Cote d'Azur, where the penny seems to be dropping Amongst the locals that perhaps Mrs May's QUALIFIED Freedom of Movement might have some merit after all

    I would have thought the scariest lesson from the tragedy yesterday is that you don't need bombs, guns, or to emigrate, etc. Anyone who can get a tourist visa and who can hotwire a truck can do this.
    Apparently the man rented it on Wednesday, and drove it down from the hills just a couple of miles away.

    Where he got the grenades and guns is another matter.
    Stephen King once said he abandoned a plan to write a book about a hijacked airliner being flown into a skyscraper because research convinced him it would be all too easy to do and he didn't want to give anyone ideas.*

    Ellis Peters frequently wrote about cars being used as murder weapons (not in the Cadfaels, obviously!) because she thought they gave an everyday immediacy to her books.

    It isn't difficult for intelligent and imaginative people to convert everyday items into fearsome weapons. Various plant sprays spring to mind, as does petrol. The will to do it is all that is needed, and sadly that seems far too common.

    *He did say that on 13/11/01 though, so treat with caution.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Miss Plato, May may have made the Morsi Mistake. She has a slender majority but made wholesale changes and united Osborne with his friends and allies on the backbenches.

    We'll see how things play out.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,840
    ydoethur said:

    rottenborough said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    I not too sure what the apology should be for.

    They didn't win the 2010 election and therefore were not in a position to implement the tuition fee policy and by going into Coalition they helped to provide five years of stable government. A further bonus was the end of the dreadful Gordon Brown administration.

    Whilst in 2015 the electorate were brutal to the LibDems I for one am grateful for the part they played in the 2010-15 government.
    Indeed.

    It'll be interesting to see how history views the 2010-15 coalition government. I reckon it'll be better than hey were viewed at the time.
    It's a bloody shame the Coalition didn't continue: we'd still be in the EU now if it had.
    We still are. Or has A50 been triggered and telescoped since yesterday?

    A lot of water has to flow under a lot of bridges before we are out.
    Yes, but we are being taken away by the tide with no realistic way of preventing that. We're not out yet, but there's no stopping it.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rottenborough said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    I not too sure what the apology should be for.

    They didn't win the 2010 election and therefore were not in a position to implement the tuition fee policy and by going into Coalition they helped to provide five years of stable government. A further bonus was the end of the dreadful Gordon Brown administration.

    Whilst in 2015 the electorate were brutal to the LibDems I for one am grateful for the part they played in the 2010-15 government.
    Indeed.

    It'll be interesting to see how history views the 2010-15 coalition government. I reckon it'll be better than hey were viewed at the time.
    It's a bloody shame the Coalition didn't continue: we'd still be in the EU now if it had.
    We still are. Or has A50 been triggered and telescoped since yesterday?

    A lot of water has to flow under a lot of bridges before we are out.
    Yes, but we are being taken away by the tide with no realistic way of preventing that. We're not out yet, but there's no stopping it.
    It's a fantastic feeling, isn't it?
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited July 2016
    Off topic. An interesting speech from the BoE's Chief Economist (from 30th June so just post EUref). It summarises a lot of the issues we've been discussing recently.

    http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/speeches/2016/speech916.pdf
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,130
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Miss Plato, May may have made the Morsi Mistake. She has a slender majority but made wholesale changes and united Osborne with his friends and allies on the backbenches.

    We'll see how things play out.

    It doesn't matter.

    She's calling a General Election anyway
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rottenborough said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    Whilst the Lib Dems can come back in pockets of local government, to make progress nationally they still need to do something to excise the whole tuition fees/coalition poison.

    An apology would be a start.

    I not too sure what the apology should be for.

    They didn't win the 2010 election and therefore were not in a position to implement the tuition fee policy and by going into Coalition they helped to provide five years of stable government. A further bonus was the end of the dreadful Gordon Brown administration.

    Whilst in 2015 the electorate were brutal to the LibDems I for one am grateful for the part they played in the 2010-15 government.
    Indeed.

    It'll be interesting to see how history views the 2010-15 coalition government. I reckon it'll be better than hey were viewed at the time.
    It's a bloody shame the Coalition didn't continue: we'd still be in the EU now if it had.
    We still are. Or has A50 been triggered and telescoped since yesterday?

    A lot of water has to flow under a lot of bridges before we are out.
    Yes, but we are being taken away by the tide with no realistic way of preventing that. We're not out yet, but there's no stopping it.
    Sounds like when we were sucked in in the 70's
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    MaxPB said:

    JonnyJimmy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    JonnyJimmy said:

    How much coal gets burnt to fully charge an EV in the UK?

    Almost none. See: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
    Surprising current figure given that in 2015 30% of UK electricity came from coal.. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/447632/DUKES_2015_Chapter_5.pdf

    But if the current number is the new normal, how much gas is burnt to charge an EV?
    A standard EV battery is 60KWh which is 60,000 x 60 x 60 = 216MJ. Natural gas produces 50MJ per kilo so it's 4.2kg of natural gas to recharge the whole battery, but since gas provides about 40% of UK energy that means 1.7kg of gas is required to recharge a battery, or ~2m².
    Isn't that 50MJ/kg assuming 100% efficiency in both the gas power station and in the transmission through the grid?
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    SimonStClare said:

    ydoethur said:

    Osborne's allies threatening May, who has a majority of 12 (16) for announcing he was sacked.

    Got a link with names pls?
    deselect the lot of them
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,930
    MaxPB said:

    JonnyJimmy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    JonnyJimmy said:

    How much coal gets burnt to fully charge an EV in the UK?

    Almost none. See: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
    Surprising current figure given that in 2015 30% of UK electricity came from coal.. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/447632/DUKES_2015_Chapter_5.pdf

    But if the current number is the new normal, how much gas is burnt to charge an EV?
    A standard EV battery is 60KWh which is 60,000 x 60 x 60 = 216MJ. Natural gas produces 50MJ per kilo so it's 4.2kg of natural gas to recharge the whole battery, but since gas provides about 40% of UK energy that means 1.7kg of gas is required to recharge a battery, or ~2m².
    You also have to account for the fact that:

    - natural gas power station is only 50-60% efficient
    - there are transmission losses
    - there are charging losses

    But even so, it's amazingly little isn't it?
This discussion has been closed.