politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Britain’s EU hokey-cokey: what would ‘in again’ look like a
Comments
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Doubly so, as at least one tit of a leaver (me) voted remain on that one after I had read it.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Oops.. I'll try not to do that on the 23rd.0 -
She lost an election. Which seems to be standard, tbh.Gallowgate said:Out of interest, why is Sayeeda Warsi even a peer? What has she done to deserve it?
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Trump is now polling worse than any GOP nominee at this stage in recent decades
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/19/the-brutal-numbers-behind-a-very-bad-month-for-donald-trump/0 -
Which of the "only 3 possible models" have vote Leave come out in favour of? Or if they haven't (because we don't get to make that choice), presumably they've spelt out in detail what each of these models means for the UK going forward? Can't be that difficult, there's only 3 to cover.Richard_Tyndall said:
Kind of a stupid quote. Those are the three options out there and always have been. I can't actually think of any other possible model than those.Scott_P said:0 -
Yes it does,. It negotiates a whole series of bilateral free trade agreements.notme said:
Switzerland does not fit into any of those three models.Richard_Tyndall said:
Kind of a stupid quote. Those are the three options out there and always have been. I can't actually think of any other possible model than those.Scott_P said:0 -
Warsi of the infamous election leaflets:GIN1138 said:
She stood for election in 2005, was rejected by the electorate so finished up in the Lords...Gallowgate said:Out of interest, why is Sayeeda Warsi even a peer? What has she done to deserve it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayeeda_Warsi,_Baroness_Warsi#Political_career
Same old, same old.
' “Labour has scrapped Section 28, which was introduced by the Conservatives to stop schools promoting alternative sexual lifestyles such as homosexuality to children as young as seven years old.
“Labour reduced the age of consent for homosexuality from 18 to 16, allowing schoolchildren to be propositioned for homosexual relationships.”
In 2005 these leaflets were aimed at the Muslim voters in the constituency.
Other campaign literature, targeted at white areas, had a strong anti-immigration theme. '
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2007/07/11/homophobic-leaflet-used-again-by-tory-candidate/0 -
Lets remove the obligation to ballot workers?SouthamObserver said:
And much stronger trade unions. Time to go back?another_richard said:
Indeed.Blueberry said:
Yes, I've done all those crap jobs - cleaning, food processing, warehouses, licking envelopes etc - baanother_richard said:
So who did the Norfolk farmers get to pull the crops ten or twenty years ago ?SquareRoot said:
Thats how you categorise it. Ask the farmers in Norfolk who cannot get brits to pull the crops..another_richard said:
The usual casual bigotry and racism.SquareRoot said:
HuhPlatoSaid said:
CLAPSJohn_M said:
I found it lazy and thoughtless - the over-used trope of 'post-truth politics' is driving me mental at the moment.perdix said:The Economist article worth a read. No hype. Balanced, thoughtful.
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21700637-vote-leave-european-union-would-diminish-both-britain-and-europe-divided-we-fall
Both major UK parties are to blame for failing to ensure that the impact of mass migration did not damage the working poor (or however you want to classify them).
They've had years to do so, and did not. Further (and this has continued right through the campaign), a large section of those who have prospered continue to just shriek 'racist' at every conceivable opportunity.
This is not post-truth politics. It's this-is-what-happens-when-you-ignore-half-your-voters politics.
In conclusion, I'd like to say: this is not rocket science, for fuck's sake.
. Migrants do the jobs that the indigenous Brits won't.
Migrants do the jobs for lower pay and under worse conditions and in a more servile manner is what you should have said.
Leave is full of lies, but so are Remain. The difference is that Leave are xenophobic in many of the things they say. Go and talk to some leavers on the street and all they say is that they want to stop immigration/ kick migrants out.. That's it.. its a one subject agenda.
I suppose the Norfolk working class would now be classified as wicked layabouts for wanting enough wages to pay the rent on a proper house instead of living a dozen to a wooden hut.
There was also in the 1980s and 1990s far greater potential for economic mobility and for the young and/or low paid to buy a house.
Show of hands lads!
That's it we're going on strike.0 -
The IMF are saying growth over the next three years of 1.9, -0.8 and 1.1. I think 'disastrous' might be pitching it a tad high.TudorRose said:
It won't 'obviously be disastrous' - even the Treasury forecast shows GDP growth by 2018 if there's Brexit (Table 2c, p46).Goupillon said:
OK but if the BBC's figures are correct you're figures are wrong too: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35943216MaxPB said:
Let's actually do the real maths. The net contribution plus tariffs is about £190m per week, we have 32m people in work in the country. That's £5.93 per week or £300 per year. Which equates to 2p on the basic rate of tax for someone earning the national average wage.Goupillon said:Lets get the nett cost of being in the EU (£140m per week) into perspective - this cost is about £2 a week for the each of the approx 70 million of us living in the UK. I do not buy the Sun, Express or Daily Mail but I am told the cost per week for taking any of these "admirable organs" is considerably more than this. So why are some people so upset about the amount of money we are currently paying to the EU? I wonder how many new hospitals could be built with the amount of money that people could save if they stopped buying these newspapers?
If the government decided to pay up our EU membership rather than borrow the money we would have to add a minimum of 2p on income tax, but really more like 4p and then have the EU give most of it away to farmers to keep their land empty.
My point is valid whichever basis is used for the calculation. The current cost of the UK's membership of the EU is actually very good value from purely an economic viewpoint.
Leaving the EU will obviously be disastrous for the UK economy along with all the ensuing consequences.
The consensus over the long haul (and I don't believe any model that goes out longer than five years, so take this with a massive grain of salt) is that by 2030, we'll have forgone around 6-8% of GDP growth, so essentially growth will be around 0.6-0.8% p.a. lower than otherwise. To be clear it's not implying economic shrinkage; it's a choice between being rich and richer.
To repeat though; we failed to forecast the ERM, Euro, .com bubble, CDS crash etc. DYR.0 -
You would think they would at least try and make sure people knew they were on the Leave side before they defected though.RodCrosby said:
Playbook chapter 2GIN1138 said:
The Baroness is for turning!Scott_P said:@SamCoatesTimes: Times Exclusive - Sayeeda Warsi defection. From leave to remain. Our p1 by @elliotttimes
@SamCoatesTimes: Lady Warsi to The Times: “Are we prepared to tell lies, to spread hate and xenophobia just to win a campaign? For me that’s a step too far.”
[Drumroll] "Unveil the sleepers and double-agents!"
yawn...0 -
Name and explain a specific trade union legislation that you are thinking of please.Apart from the most recent ones I'll admit they were unnecessary.SouthamObserver said:It's good to see so many on here now convinced of the importance of high wages and good working conditions for UK workers. Time to revisit anti-union legislation?
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The one passed this year, for a start.notme said:
Which Trade Union law would you remove?SouthamObserver said:
One of the reasons people end up in low pay, poor condition jobs is that unions have been emasculated in this country.John_M said:
Stop trolling SOSouthamObserver said:It's good to see so many on here now convinced of the importance of high wages and good working conditions for UK workers. Time to revisit anti-union legislation?
. More seriously, do you think it would help? My knowledge of trades union legislation is shocking.
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As is Telegraph, so what's your underlying point? I thought Cameron was excellent tonight. Given this old Remainer a slender bit of hope.Tykejohnno said:I see the bbc news doing the spirit of churchill bit from Cameron's QT appearance.
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Or it could mean higher labour costs leading to more innovation and investment (what happened in the industrial revolution) and therefore cheaper food and higher productivity.SouthamObserver said:
It's a fair point. But what it also means is higher prices, or more imports and no jobs.another_richard said:
So who did the Norfolk farmers get to pull the crops ten or twenty years ago ?SquareRoot said:
Thats how you categorise it. Ask the farmers in Norfolk who cannot get brits to pull the crops..another_richard said:
The usual casual bigotry and racism.SquareRoot said:
HuhPlatoSaid said:
CLAPSJohn_M said:
I found it lazy and thoughtless - the over-used trope of 'post-truth politics' is driving me mental at the moment.perdix said:The Economist article worth a read. No hype. Balanced, thoughtful.
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21700637-vote-leave-european-union-would-diminish-both-britain-and-europe-divided-we-fall
Both major UK parties are to blame for failing to ensure that the impact of mass migration did not damage the working poor (or however you want to classify them).
They've had years to do so, and did not. Further (and this has continued right through the campaign), a large section of those who have prospered continue to just shriek 'racist' at every conceivable opportunity.
This is not post-truth politics. It's this-is-what-happens-when-you-ignore-half-your-voters politics.
In conclusion, I'd like to say: this is not rocket science, for fuck's sake.
. Migrants do the jobs that the indigenous Brits won't.
Migrants do the jobs for lower pay and under worse conditions and in a more servile manner is what you should have said.
Leave is full of lies, but so are Remain. The difference is that Leave are xenophobic in many of the things they say. Go and talk to some leavers on the street and all they say is that they want to stop immigration/ kick migrants out.. That's it.. its a one subject agenda.
I suppose the Norfolk working class would now be classified as wicked layabouts for wanting enough wages to pay the rent on a proper house instead of living a dozen to a wooden hut.
Sounds like we also need stronger trade unions.0 -
Yes. They have said they will negotiate a free trade agreement.alex. said:
Which of the "only 3 possible models" have vote Leave come out in favour of? Or if they haven't (because we don't get to make that choice), presumably they've spelt out in detail what each of these models means for the UK going forward? Can't be that difficult, there's only 3 to cover.Richard_Tyndall said:
Kind of a stupid quote. Those are the three options out there and always have been. I can't actually think of any other possible model than those.Scott_P said:
Personally I was always opposed to this as I favour the Norway option but they have been clear enough in what course they would take whether I like it or not.0 -
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You should have plenty of hope :P. I can't really see how on earth Leave will win.rottenborough said:
As is Telegraph, so what's your underlying point? I thought Cameron was excellent tonight. Given this old Remainer a slender bit of hope.Tykejohnno said:I see the bbc news doing the spirit of churchill bit from Cameron's QT appearance.
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With respect alex, that's impossible to answer. It's not us laying down terms to the EU. If you read the NYT article I linked earlier, some options may not even be on the table.alex. said:
Which of the "only 3 possible models" have vote Leave come out in favour of? Or if they haven't (because we don't get to make that choice), presumably they've spelt out in detail what each of these models means for the UK going forward? Can't be that difficult, there's only 3 to cover.Richard_Tyndall said:
Kind of a stupid quote. Those are the three options out there and always have been. I can't actually think of any other possible model than those.Scott_P said:
I would be the first to cry 'foul' if Vote Leave were saying what we'd get out of article 50 negotiations.0 -
It negotiates a whole series of bilateral agreements, but they go way way way beyond free trade. Switzerland is as possibly close to being a member of the EU without actually joining.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes it does,. It negotiates a whole series of bilateral free trade agreements.notme said:
Switzerland does not fit into any of those three models.Richard_Tyndall said:
Kind of a stupid quote. Those are the three options out there and always have been. I can't actually think of any other possible model than those.Scott_P said:
From Wiki:
Free movement of people
Air traffic
Road traffic
Agriculture
Technical trade barriers
Public procurement
Science
Security and asylum and Schengen membership
Cooperation in fraud pursuits
Final stipulations in open questions about agriculture, environment, media, education, care of the elderly, statistics and services.
I'm not sure we have the bargaining power necessary to emulate Switzerland's position. Switzerland genuinely have their cake and eat it.0 -
Outstanding!!Tykejohnno said:Pathetic front page.
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/7446396903268024320 -
lol at The Times front page. What are they on about? I didn't even know Warsi had gone to the Lords, I thought she was off quangoing.Richard_Tyndall said:
You would think they would at least try and make sure people knew they were on the Leave side before they defected though.RodCrosby said:
Playbook chapter 2GIN1138 said:
The Baroness is for turning!Scott_P said:@SamCoatesTimes: Times Exclusive - Sayeeda Warsi defection. From leave to remain. Our p1 by @elliotttimes
@SamCoatesTimes: Lady Warsi to The Times: “Are we prepared to tell lies, to spread hate and xenophobia just to win a campaign? For me that’s a step too far.”
[Drumroll] "Unveil the sleepers and double-agents!"
yawn...0 -
Which trade unions though - the ones of yesteryear weren't supporters of unlimited immigration as they knew it would have a detrimental effect on their members. The trade unions of today think differently.SouthamObserver said:
And much stronger trade unions. Time to go back?another_richard said:
Indeed.Blueberry said:
Yes, I've done all those crap jobs - cleaning, food processing, warehouses, licking envelopes etc - back in the 80s/90s. All my workmates then were Englishspeak pigeon English. Or more likely, who all speak eg Portuguese, or Slavic, or whatever, and therefore could talk to each other in their mother tongue. I think it's unfair to malign Brits who don't want those working conditions.another_richard said:
So who did the Norfolk farmers get to pull the crops ten or twenty years ago ?SquareRoot said:
Thats how you categorise it. Ask the farmers in Norfolk who cannot get brits to pull the crops..another_richard said:
The usual casual bigotry and racism.SquareRoot said:
Huh
. Migrants do the jobs that the indigenous Brits won't.
Migrants do the jobs for lower pay and under worse conditions and in a more servile manner is what you should have said.
Leave is full of lies, but so are Remain. The difference is that Leave are xenophobic in many of the things they say. Go and talk to some leavers on the street and all they say is that they want to stop immigration/ kick migrants out.. That's it.. its a one subject agenda.
I suppose the Norfolk working class would now be classified as wicked layabouts for wanting enough wages to pay the rent on a proper house instead of living a dozen to a wooden hut.
There was also in the 1980s and 1990s far greater potential for economic mobility and for the young and/or low paid to buy a house.
As to the balance of capital and labour the problem is both sides are being robbed by the parasitical executive class.
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And the Indyrottenborough said:As is Telegraph
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/7446152558845992980 -
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The 'Breaking Point' poster was the "breaking point".
Which PBer was it who claimed Farage was a deep sleeper agent for Remain?0 -
If someone is described as "Leading Tory", then you know for sure they are anything but.Tykejohnno said:Pathetic front page.
twitter.com/suttonnick/status/7446396903268024320 -
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If Warsi is a leading Tory then the party is very fucked.Tykejohnno said:Pathetic front page.
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/7446396903268024320 -
Warsi is trying to get her career back.Casino_Royale said:
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I like the juxtaposition of "worried bankers, working through the night".Scott_P said:
And the Indyrottenborough said:As is Telegraph
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/744615255884599298
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I like that advert. Probably will also bump a few voters towards Remain.Scott_P said:
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So you only objected to trade union legislation for the last 47 days? You talk about the eighties and going back to that. So please enlighten us to this egregious anti trade union legislation that was passed.SouthamObserver said:
The one passed this year, for a start.notme said:
Which Trade Union law would you remove?SouthamObserver said:
One of the reasons people end up in low pay, poor condition jobs is that unions have been emasculated in this country.John_M said:
Stop trolling SOSouthamObserver said:It's good to see so many on here now convinced of the importance of high wages and good working conditions for UK workers. Time to revisit anti-union legislation?
. More seriously, do you think it would help? My knowledge of trades union legislation is shocking.
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Shame IDS has neither talent.TCPoliticalBetting said:
That Harold Wilson chap as PM kept us out. He also knew how to handle a referendum on Europe.Sunil_Prasannan said:Didn't the UK stay well clear of Vietnam when things kicked off in 1963?
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https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/744642728642908163rottenborough said:
Outstanding!!Tykejohnno said:Pathetic front page.
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/7446396903268024320 -
We know he ain't a PB plant as the poster would have said "Tipping Point"rottenborough said:The 'Breaking Point' poster was the "breaking point".
Which PBer was it who claimed Farage was a deep sleeper agent for Remain?
I'll get my coat.....0 -
That's very classy of Victor. Respect.Scott_P said:0 -
@DPJHodges: No longer a debate about whether Brexit has become a racist campaign. Only question is how wide and deep the racism goes.0
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And so fewer jobs.BenedictWhite said:
Or it could mean higher labour costs leading to more innovation and investment (what happened in the industrial revolution) and therefore cheaper food and higher productivity.SouthamObserver said:
It's a fair point. But what it also means is higher prices, or more imports and no jobs.another_richard said:
So who did the Norfolk farmers get to pull the crops ten or twenty years ago ?SquareRoot said:
Thats how you categorise it. Ask the farmers in Norfolk who cannot get brits to pull the crops..another_richard said:
The usual casual bigotry and racism.SquareRoot said:
HuhPlatoSaid said:
CLAPSJohn_M said:
I found it lazy and thoughtless - the over-used trope of 'post-truth politics' is driving me mental at the moment.perdix said:The Economist article worth a read. No hype. Balanced, thoughtful.
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21700637-vote-leave-european-union-would-diminish-both-britain-and-europe-divided-we-fall
Both major UK parties are to blame for failing to ensure that the impact of mass migration did not damage the working poor (or however you want to classify them).
They've had years to do so, and did not. Further (and this has continued right through the campaign), a large section of those who have prospered continue to just shriek 'racist' at every conceivable opportunity.
This is not post-truth politics. It's this-is-what-happens-when-you-ignore-half-your-voters politics.
In conclusion, I'd like to say: this is not rocket science, for fuck's sake.
. Migrants do the jobs that the indigenous Brits won't.
Migrants do the jobs for lower pay and under worse conditions and in a more servile manner is what you should have said.
Leave is full of lies, but so are Remain. The difference is that Leave are xenophobic in many of the things they say. Go and talk to some leavers on the street and all they say is that they want to stop immigration/ kick migrants out.. That's it.. its a one subject agenda.
I suppose the Norfolk working class would now be classified as wicked layabouts for wanting enough wages to pay the rent on a proper house instead of living a dozen to a wooden hut.
Sounds like we also need stronger trade unions.
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Any more reports from the Notts campaign ?rottenborough said:
As is Telegraph, so what's your underlying point? I thought Cameron was excellent tonight. Given this old Remainer a slender bit of hope.Tykejohnno said:I see the bbc news doing the spirit of churchill bit from Cameron's QT appearance.
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Farage isn't a sleeper agent for REMAIN. Farage is in it for Farage...rottenborough said:The 'Breaking Point' poster was the "breaking point".
Which PBer was it who claimed Farage was a deep sleeper agent for Remain?0 -
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"Xenophobic" Dan, get with the times. All the cool kids are using it.Scott_P said:@DPJHodges: No longer a debate about whether Brexit has become a racist campaign. Only question is how wide and deep the racism goes.
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That is Switzerland's choice. Of course we would not want many of those agreements so it is not a problem for us.notme said:
It negotiates a whole series of bilateral agreements, but they go way way way beyond free trade. Switzerland is as possibly close to being a member of the EU without actually joining.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes it does,. It negotiates a whole series of bilateral free trade agreements.notme said:
Switzerland does not fit into any of those three models.Richard_Tyndall said:
Kind of a stupid quote. Those are the three options out there and always have been. I can't actually think of any other possible model than those.Scott_P said:
From Wiki:
Free movement of people
Air traffic
Road traffic
Agriculture
Technical trade barriers
Public procurement
Science
Security and asylum and Schengen membership
Cooperation in fraud pursuits
Final stipulations in open questions about agriculture, environment, media, education, care of the elderly, statistics and services.
I'm not sure we have the bargaining power necessary to emulate Switzerland's position. Switzerland genuinely have their cake and eat it.0 -
It's *deeply* offensive to class Brexit - and therefore those of us voting to Leave - as "racist". Go funk yourself HodgesScott_P said:@DPJHodges: No longer a debate about whether Brexit has become a racist campaign. Only question is how wide and deep the racism goes.
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Talking of lies.......Camerons best line of the evening "I'm sure there are arguments for LEAVING but it would be a tragedy if the UK voted on three things that are COMPLETELY untrue. Turkey are NOT joining the EU. The UK are NOT joining a EU army and we do NOT pay £350 million to the EU each week"SouthamObserver said:
Sounds like a lie to me. Remain do not own the copyright.El_Dave said:
Louise Mensch says the Remain campaign have put a copyright infringement claim on the Corbyn/marr interview video.steve_garner said:Corbyn's gift to leave makes the front page of the DT.
Expect to hear it repeated more than once!0 -
People who call me my mum and brother racist really need to fuck off.Scott_P said:@DPJHodges: No longer a debate about whether Brexit has becomea racist campaign. Only question is how wide and deep the racism goes.
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He may yet not be the nominee.Jobabob said:Trump is now polling worse than any GOP nominee at this stage in recent decades
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/19/the-brutal-numbers-behind-a-very-bad-month-for-donald-trump/0 -
Corbyn's a sleeper for leave,have you seen the telegraph and sun.GIN1138 said:
Farage isn't a sleeper agent for REMAIN. Farage is in it for Farage...rottenborough said:The 'Breaking Point' poster was the "breaking point".
Which PBer was it who claimed Farage was a deep sleeper agent for Remain?0 -
It's generally reckoned in the EU that the Swiss arrangement was a mistake because it doesn't include any supranational oversight, unlike the EEA. In any case Switzerland and the EU are not talking to each otherRichard_Tyndall said:
Yes it does,. It negotiates a whole series of bilateral free trade agreements.notme said:
Switzerland does not fit into any of those three models.Richard_Tyndall said:
Kind of a stupid quote. Those are the three options out there and always have been. I can't actually think of any other possible model than those.Scott_P said:
So I think those three options are about right. Senior members of the French and German governments (Macron and Schaeuble) have both talked about qualifying EEA membership for Britain. That may just be posturing. Also the FTA option may be closer to the Korean model than the Canadian one.0 -
John_N
Are you denying it's a xenophobic and racist campaign? It is. No question. It is squalid and disgusting.0 -
Top debatingnunu said:
People who call me my mum and brother racist really need to fuck off.Scott_P said:@DPJHodges: No longer a debate about whether Brexit has becomea racist campaign. Only question is how wide and deep the racism goes.
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I suspect Hodges is use to being told that :-)nunu said:
People who call me my mum and brother racist really need to fuck off.Scott_P said:@DPJHodges: No longer a debate about whether Brexit has becomea racist campaign. Only question is how wide and deep the racism goes.
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Given his history...Tykejohnno said:
Corbyn's a sleeper for leave,have you seen the telegraph and sun.GIN1138 said:
Farage isn't a sleeper agent for REMAIN. Farage is in it for Farage...rottenborough said:The 'Breaking Point' poster was the "breaking point".
Which PBer was it who claimed Farage was a deep sleeper agent for Remain?0 -
It isn't a question of unions or no unions. It is a question of restricting the labour market which in turn allows wages to rise.SouthamObserver said:It's good to see so many on here now convinced of the importance of high wages and good working conditions for UK workers. Time to revisit anti-union legislation?
If you have a limited supply of housing etc, but then allow an unlimited supply of labour something is going to brake.0 -
At least the Times is impartial enough to include Jeremy's singular contribution to the debate. I bet the WWC Labour folk are lapping that up.Roger said:
Talking of lies.......Camerons best line of the evening "I'm sure there are arguments for Leaving but it would be a tragedy if the UK voted on three things that are COMPLETELY untrue. Turkey are NOT joining the EU. The UK are not joining a EU army and we do NOT pay £350 million to the EU each week"SouthamObserver said:
Sounds like a lie to me. Remain do not own the copyright.El_Dave said:
Louise Mensch says the Remain campaign have put a copyright infringement claim on the Corbyn/marr interview video.steve_garner said:Corbyn's gift to leave makes the front page of the DT.
Expect to hear it repeated more than once!0 -
Does Dan Hodges think Mrs Duffy is a "Bigoted Woman"?
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Yes, i could see why they wouldnt want to replicate it. Switzerland obviously have better negotiators than the EU does. Can we hire them?FF43 said:
It's generally reckoned in the EU that the Swiss arrangement was a mistake because it doesn't include any supranational oversight, unlike the EEA. In any case Switzerland and the EU are not talking to each otherRichard_Tyndall said:
Yes it does,. It negotiates a whole series of bilateral free trade agreements.notme said:
Switzerland does not fit into any of those three models.Richard_Tyndall said:
Kind of a stupid quote. Those are the three options out there and always have been. I can't actually think of any other possible model than those.Scott_P said:
So I think those three options are about right. Senior members of the French and German governments (Macron and Schaeuble) have both talked about qualifying EEA membership for Britain. That may just be posturing. Also the FTA option may be closer to the Korean model than the Canadian one.0 -
He is calling the campaign racist.nunu said:
People who call me my mum and brother racist really need to fuck off.Scott_P said:@DPJHodges: No longer a debate about whether Brexit has becomea racist campaign. Only question is how wide and deep the racism goes.
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I must say, when I hear the usual social justice warriors whining about what Orban in Hungary or PiS in Poland is getting up to, part of me wishes those governments on. Imagine their temerity, reflecting public opinion!
This is the classy way to seek a Remain vote, not Schaeuble's ridiculous threats.0 -
Jezza will vote LEAVE in the privacy of the polling booth I'm convinced of it.Chameleon said:
Given his history...Tykejohnno said:
Corbyn's a sleeper for leave,have you seen the telegraph and sun.GIN1138 said:
Farage isn't a sleeper agent for REMAIN. Farage is in it for Farage...rottenborough said:The 'Breaking Point' poster was the "breaking point".
Which PBer was it who claimed Farage was a deep sleeper agent for Remain?0 -
Honesty on immigration is a rare trait in today's politicians. I'll have to vote Labour in the next PCC as a reward or something for him.Tykejohnno said:
Corbyn's a sleeper for leave,have you seen the telegraph and sun.GIN1138 said:
Farage isn't a sleeper agent for REMAIN. Farage is in it for Farage...rottenborough said:The 'Breaking Point' poster was the "breaking point".
Which PBer was it who claimed Farage was a deep sleeper agent for Remain?0 -
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She's there because she's a minority. Let's be frank.Gallowgate said:Out of interest, why is Sayeeda Warsi even a peer? What has she done to deserve it?
Baroness Token.0 -
LOL!nunu said:
People who call me my mum and brother racist really need to fuck off.Scott_P said:@DPJHodges: No longer a debate about whether Brexit has becomea racist campaign. Only question is how wide and deep the racism goes.
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Cameron tonight showed that Remain is a one trick pony - 'it's the economy, stupid'. If you don't think the economy is currently working for your benefit then Remain offers you nothing.
He managed to extend his inability to do anything about EU migration into an admission that he is doing a fairly crap job in controlling non-EU migration. Even Corbyn didn't manage that this morning.
And he looked shifty as hell in his squirming and refusal to give a straight answer to the question of vetoing Turkish membership.
I think Remain will edge it, but Cameron's performance tonight won't have gained them votes.
Good night all.0 -
Appreciate it was on hours ago but I've just finished watching it as live.
Baku GP. What a disappointing race! Looked like a great setup after bumpy practice and qualifying, ended us as good amount of overtaking but nob all bumpy bumpy. To give my brother/sister-in-law credit, when I left their house at teatime they didn't give anything away (they'd watched live) when I said my father's day treat later was to banish the childs to bed and watch the race with a beer...0 -
Long time no speak. 5 stars are your brand of Eurosceptics? Correct?AndreaParma_82 said:Exit polls for run offs in mayoral elections in Italy
Rome: 5 Stars 64-68% PD 32-36%
Milan: PD 49-53% Right 47-51%
Turin: 5 Stars 50-54% PD 46-50%
Bologna: PD 54-58% Right 42-46%
Naples: De Magistris 61-65 Right 35-39
How is that going down in Italy?0 -
Yep, great stuff. Three days of this and economic meltdown forecasts are now lined up no doubt.Roger said:
Talking of lies.......Camerons best line of the evening "I'm sure there are arguments for LEAVING but it would be a tragedy if the UK voted on three things that are COMPLETELY untrue. Turkey are NOT joining the EU. The UK are NOT joining a EU army and we do NOT pay £350 million to the EU each week"SouthamObserver said:
Sounds like a lie to me. Remain do not own the copyright.El_Dave said:
Louise Mensch says the Remain campaign have put a copyright infringement claim on the Corbyn/marr interview video.steve_garner said:Corbyn's gift to leave makes the front page of the DT.
Expect to hear it repeated more than once!0 -
How can an inanimate object be racist? It's risible really. It's just a scattergun approach. Racist this, racist that, blah-de-fucking-blah.SouthamObserver said:
He is calling the campaign racist.nunu said:
People who call me my mum and brother racist really need to fuck off.Scott_P said:@DPJHodges: No longer a debate about whether Brexit has becomea racist campaign. Only question is how wide and deep the racism goes.
There's just such a poverty of thought behind the whole approach. Mind you, carry on Dan. I'm sure you're doing sterling work for Brexit, if you did but know it.0 -
Jezza has been for LEAVE for over 40 years. He's having to toe the party line right now but I'll never be convinced he's anything other than a committed LEAVER.Tykejohnno said:
Corbyn's a sleeper for leave,have you seen the telegraph and sun.GIN1138 said:
Farage isn't a sleeper agent for REMAIN. Farage is in it for Farage...rottenborough said:The 'Breaking Point' poster was the "breaking point".
Which PBer was it who claimed Farage was a deep sleeper agent for Remain?0 -
Leaver who is embarrassed by the Leave campaign describes anti Leave story as embarrassing.Tykejohnno said:
In other news, tea goes well with biscuits.0 -
Something occurred to me reading this.Sunil_Prasannan said:
REMAIN are RACISTS because the present EU immigration rules favour predominantly white EU countries over predominantly non-white non-EU countries.SquareRoot said:
Thats how you categorise it. Ask the farmers in Norfolk who cannot get brits to pull the crops..another_richard said:
The usual casual bigotry and racism.SquareRoot said:
HuhPlatoSaid said:
CLAPSJohn_M said:
I found it lazy and thoughtless - the over-used trope of 'post-truth politics' is driving me mental at the moment.perdix said:The Economist article worth a read. No hype. Balanced, thoughtful.
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21700637-vote-leave-european-union-would-diminish-both-britain-and-europe-divided-we-fall
Both major UK parties are to blame for failing to ensure that the impact of mass migration did not damage the working poor (or however you want to classify them).
They've had years to do so, and did not. Further (and this has continued right through the campaign), a large section of those who have prospered continue to just shriek 'racist' at every conceivable opportunity.
This is not post-truth politics. It's this-is-what-happens-when-you-ignore-half-your-voters politics.
In conclusion, I'd like to say: this is not rocket science, for fuck's sake.
. Migrants do the jobs that the indigenous Brits won't.
Migrants do the jobs for lower pay and under worse conditions and in a more servile manner is what you should have said.
Leave is full of lies, but so are Remain. The difference is that Leave are xenophobic in many of the things they say. Go and talk to some leavers on the street and all they say is that they want to stop immigration/ kick migrants out.. That's it.. its a one subject agenda.
RACIST REMAINERS!
Given how successful trump is with his adjective insult campaign, shouldn't Racist Remainers be the clarion call of the Leave campaign. It certainly seems to have traction. Little Marco, Lyin' Ted and Low Energy Jeb certainly seemed to work.0 -
"If you don't think the economy is currently working for your benefit then Remain offers you nothing."SandyRentool said:Cameron tonight showed that Remain is a one trick pony - 'it's the economy, stupid'. If you don't think the economy is currently working for your benefit then Remain offers you nothing.
He managed to extend his inability to do anything about EU migration into an admission that he is doing a fairly crap job in controlling non-EU migration. Even Corbyn didn't manage that this morning.
And he looked shifty as hell in his squirming and refusal to give a straight answer to the question of vetoing Turkish membership.
I think Remain will edge it, but Cameron's performance tonight won't have gained them votes.
Good night all.
...except Leave might be worse. You have to be really down on your luck for there not to be a "worse" in your early morning nightmares.0 -
What did Thatcher say about "The Enemy Within"?RochdalePioneers said:
It's *deeply* offensive to class Brexit - and therefore those of us voting to Leave - as "racist". Go funk yourself HodgesScott_P said:@DPJHodges: No longer a debate about whether Brexit has become a racist campaign. Only question is how wide and deep the racism goes.
0 -
PaRoy policy is for remain, and the party machine is advocating a "sceptical but on balance in favour" position which with our voters is the best we can. But it seems clear that the membership is split and yes that means people working for the party position disagreeing in the ballot box.GIN1138 said:
Jezza will vote LEAVE in the privacy of the polling booth I'm convinced of it.Chameleon said:
Given his history...Tykejohnno said:
Corbyn's a sleeper for leave,have you seen the telegraph and sun.GIN1138 said:
Farage isn't a sleeper agent for REMAIN. Farage is in it for Farage...rottenborough said:The 'Breaking Point' poster was the "breaking point".
Which PBer was it who claimed Farage was a deep sleeper agent for Remain?0 -
The British economy creates enough wealth for it to 'carry' a certain level of lower than average productivity workers and a certain level of non-workers.SouthamObserver said:
And so fewer jobs.BenedictWhite said:
Or it could mean higher labour costs leading to more innovation and investment (what happened in the industrial revolution) and therefore cheaper food and higher productivity.SouthamObserver said:
It's a fair point. But what it also means is higher prices, or more imports and no jobs.another_richard said:
So who did the Norfolk farmers get to pull the crops ten or twenty years ago ?SquareRoot said:
Thats how you categorise it. Ask the farmers in Norfolk who cannot get brits to pull the crops..another_richard said:
The usual casual bigotry and racism.SquareRoot said:
Huh
. Migrants do the jobs that the indigenous Brits won't.
Migrants do the jobs for lower pay and under worse conditions and in a more servile manner is what you should have said.
Leave is full of lies, but so are Remain. The difference is that Leave are xenophobic in many of the things they say. Go and talk to some leavers on the street and all they say is that they want to stop immigration/ kick migrants out.. That's it.. its a one subject agenda.
I suppose the Norfolk working class would now be classified as wicked layabouts for wanting enough wages to pay the rent on a proper house instead of living a dozen to a wooden hut.
Sounds like we also need stronger trade unions.
The problem is its not creating enough wealth at present to carry all the low productivity workers and non-workers.
Solutions are:
Reduce the number of non-workers - difficult with an ageing population
Increase average productivity - difficult if there are no restrictions on low productivity immigrants
0 -
SKY News paper review _ weve had to take the front page of The Times off for the time being mmmm0
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Not exactly the same as overtly threatening gangs of migrants raping British women is it? He's offering an opinionTykejohnno said:
0 -
Yes i am sure they are in absolute Turmoil as Lord Warsi changes her mindTykejohnno said:Pathetic front page.
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/744639690326802432
I assume Remain were equally in turmoil when a recent Head of The Armed Forces changed his mind.
The difference being
A) He actually had a proper job ( safe guarding 60+ million people)The Times are talking B*ll*cks and neither side was greatly fussed one way or the other.
0 -
I'm not sure about that. Negotiators negotiate. The Swiss ones aren't doing that because they have seriously pissed off both the Germans with discriminatory taxation and a lack of a legal framework under which Germany can sell goods into Switzerland and also all of East Europe because of their discriminatory immigration policy. Eastern Europe makes up half the voting states in the EU, don't appreciate being seen as second class countries and having got into the EU the hard way, don't buy into the "plucky little Switzerland" meme.notme said:
Yes, i could see why they wouldnt want to replicate it. Switzerland obviously have better negotiators than the EU does. Can we hire them?FF43 said:
It's generally reckoned in the EU that the Swiss arrangement was a mistake because it doesn't include any supranational oversight, unlike the EEA. In any case Switzerland and the EU are not talking to each otherRichard_Tyndall said:
Yes it does,. It negotiates a whole series of bilateral free trade agreements.notme said:
Switzerland does not fit into any of those three models.Richard_Tyndall said:
Kind of a stupid quote. Those are the three options out there and always have been. I can't actually think of any other possible model than those.Scott_P said:
So I think those three options are about right. Senior members of the French and German governments (Macron and Schaeuble) have both talked about qualifying EEA membership for Britain. That may just be posturing. Also the FTA option may be closer to the Korean model than the Canadian one.0 -
It might have some traction except:Lowlander said:
Something occurred to me reading this.Sunil_Prasannan said:
REMAIN are RACISTS because the present EU immigration rules favour predominantly white EU countries over predominantly non-white non-EU countries.SquareRoot said:
Thats how you categorise it. Ask the farmers in Norfolk who cannot get brits to pull the crops..another_richard said:
The usual casual bigotry and racism.SquareRoot said:
HuhPlatoSaid said:
CLAPSJohn_M said:
I found it lazy and thoughtless - the over-used trope of 'post-truth politics' is driving me mental at the moment.perdix said:The Economist article worth a read. No hype. Balanced, thoughtful.
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21700637-vote-leave-european-union-would-diminish-both-britain-and-europe-divided-we-fall
Both major UK parties are to blame for failing to ensure that the impact of mass migration did not damage the working poor (or however you want to classify them).
They've had years to do so, and did not. Further (and this has continued right through the campaign), a large section of those who have prospered continue to just shriek 'racist' at every conceivable opportunity.
This is not post-truth politics. It's this-is-what-happens-when-you-ignore-half-your-voters politics.
In conclusion, I'd like to say: this is not rocket science, for fuck's sake.
. Migrants do the jobs that the indigenous Brits won't.
Migrants do the jobs for lower pay and under worse conditions and in a more servile manner is what you should have said.
Leave is full of lies, but so are Remain. The difference is that Leave are xenophobic in many of the things they say. Go and talk to some leavers on the street and all they say is that they want to stop immigration/ kick migrants out.. That's it.. its a one subject agenda.
RACIST REMAINERS!
Given how successful trump is with his adjective insult campaign, shouldn't Racist Remainers be the clarion call of the Leave campaign. It certainly seems to have traction. Little Marco, Lyin' Ted and Low Energy Jeb certainly seemed to work.
1) accusing someone of being racist is usually a sign of a lost argument
2) rather like the Little Englander jibe it is likely to backfire. Many Britons would prefer migrants to be of white Christian heritage.0 -
Alex Wickham @WikiGuido 2m2 minutes ago
Curiously, 'defector' Sayeeda Warsi does not appear to have been part of the 'Muslims for Britain' pro-Leave group0 -
He said $5 billion, and he'd think about it...rottenborough said:
He may yet not be the nominee.Jobabob said:Trump is now polling worse than any GOP nominee at this stage in recent decades
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/19/the-brutal-numbers-behind-a-very-bad-month-for-donald-trump/
And he's within touching distance in the relevant swing states.
Not even started on the Crooked One yet.
Wang the Man says 35% chance now...0 -
Lowlander said:
Something occurred to me reading this.Sunil_Prasannan said:
REMAIN are RACISTS because the present EU immigration rules favour predominantly white EU countries over predominantly non-white non-EU countries.SquareRoot said:
Thats how you categorise it. Ask the farmers in Norfolk who cannot get brits to pull the crops..another_richard said:
The usual casual bigotry and racism.SquareRoot said:
HuhPlatoSaid said:
CLAPSJohn_M said:
I found it lazy and thoughtless - the over-used trope of 'post-truth politics' is driving me mental at the moment.perdix said:The Economist article worth a read. No hype. Balanced, thoughtful.
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21700637-vote-leave-european-union-would-diminish-both-britain-and-europe-divided-we-fall
Both major UK parties are to blame for failing to ensure that the impact of mass migration did not damage the working poor (or however you want to classify them).
They've had years to do so, and did not. Further (and this has continued right through the campaign), a large section of those who have prospered continue to just shriek 'racist' at every conceivable opportunity.
This is not post-truth politics. It's this-is-what-happens-when-you-ignore-half-your-voters politics.
In conclusion, I'd like to say: this is not rocket science, for fuck's sake.
. Migrants do the jobs that the indigenous Brits won't.
Migrants do the jobs for lower pay and under worse conditions and in a more servile manner is what you should have said.
Leave is full of lies, but so are Remain. The difference is that Leave are xenophobic in many of the things they say. Go and talk to some leavers on the street and all they say is that they want to stop immigration/ kick migrants out.. That's it.. its a one subject agenda.
RACIST REMAINERS!
Given how successful trump is with his adjective insult campaign, shouldn't Racist Remainers be the clarion call of the Leave campaign. It certainly seems to have traction. Little Marco, Lyin' Ted and Low Energy Jeb certainly seemed to work.
Go ahead and see how far that one goes.
0 -
Trouble for the remain side ?marke09 said:Alex Wickham @WikiGuido 2m2 minutes ago
Curiously, 'defector' Sayeeda Warsi does not appear to have been part of the 'Muslims for Britain' pro-Leave group0 -
I was always fascinated by the left's obsession with Maggie's "anti trade union legislation".BenedictWhite said:
It isn't a question of unions or no unions. It is a question of restricting the labour market which in turn allows wages to rise.SouthamObserver said:It's good to see so many on here now convinced of the importance of high wages and good working conditions for UK workers. Time to revisit anti-union legislation?
If you have a limited supply of housing etc, but then allow an unlimited supply of labour something is going to brake.
It really wasnt very anti, except anti organisations causing industrial unrest without good cause or regard to their actions.
The first piece of legislation was in 1980. It tightened what could be considered lawful picketing (ie not being allowed to threaten to slit the throats of anyone who crossed the picket line), and a ballot to prevent 'closed shop' work places, unless 80% approved.
Those Tory bas**ards. They even went further with their fascist regime. In 1982 they passed a laws that :
* unlawful to sack someone for not being a member of a union.
* removal of civil immunity for unlawful industrial action
* immunity only applies to lawful trade disputes between workers and their employers. No secondary action.
In 1984 she passed a law requiring a union to hold a secret ballot as to whether they go on strike. How did she sleep at night?
It took a Tory to democratise the trade union movement.0 -
I get the feeling that Warsi may have made slightly more of her Leave support to The Times thanks really the case.marke09 said:0 -
Times front page has not been amended sticking with story0
-
Its direction of travel.rottenborough said:
"If you don't think the economy is currently working for your benefit then Remain offers you nothing."SandyRentool said:Cameron tonight showed that Remain is a one trick pony - 'it's the economy, stupid'. If you don't think the economy is currently working for your benefit then Remain offers you nothing.
He managed to extend his inability to do anything about EU migration into an admission that he is doing a fairly crap job in controlling non-EU migration. Even Corbyn didn't manage that this morning.
And he looked shifty as hell in his squirming and refusal to give a straight answer to the question of vetoing Turkish membership.
I think Remain will edge it, but Cameron's performance tonight won't have gained them votes.
Good night all.
...except Leave might be worse. You have to be really down on your luck for there not to be a "worse" in your early morning nightmares.
If things have been getting worse for you for several years you will expect things to continue to do so if nothing changes.
That's why you vote for change.
0