I am the son of an immigrant-for me this vote has never been about immigration. So many of you on this site bang on about immigration is all Leavers are interested in that you now believe your own narrtive.
So let me be clear- I am the son of an immigrant My name is spelt "funny" I dont need sun tan lotion in June
I am voting Leave
I AM NOT RACIST
A major reason Remain are in such a mess is because they simply do not understand how many people in this Country feel and just assume anyone voting Leave is racist because Farage is in favour of Leave
The referendum has been really awful for English politics, hasn't it? Imagine if there were one each time a new EU treaty were to be ratified, as desired by some in both REMAIN and LEAVE.
But that wouldnt be a stay or go, it would be a status quo or a bit deeper. If we had had a referenda on every EU treaty we would still have the old common market. Something most people are quite happy with. There's no way the SEA, treaty of the EU and the subsequent ones would have passed the British public.
Just seen a replay of the Cameron QT. Worst performance I have ever seen from him.The wheels have come off ,he is worn out and I cannot see him as PM much longer even if Remain wins.
Cameron was actually quite good.
Totally floundered on immigration and plain shifty on Turkey which everyone in the audience saw .We are being conned big time on the deal with Turkey as we will find out soon after Thursday.
No, we are not. Turkey is not joining the EU in at least the next generation or more. It is not remotely ready. By which time free movement may have been abandoned, or British economy not attractive.
I don't mine Leavers arguments about pure sovereignty. Fair point. If you object to any pooling then you object. But I object to red herrings.
The referendum has been really awful for English politics, hasn't it? Imagine if there were one each time a new EU treaty were to be ratified, as desired by some in both REMAIN and LEAVE.
But that wouldnt be a stay or go, it would be a status quo or a bit deeper. If we had had a referenda on every EU treaty we would still have the old common market. Something most people are quite happy with. There's no way the SEA, treaty of the EU and the subsequent ones would have passed the British public.
It looks like they all will pass the British public?
The referendum has been really awful for English politics, hasn't it? Imagine if there were one each time a new EU treaty were to be ratified, as desired by some in both REMAIN and LEAVE.
There is a non zero chance politicians will grow up.
Granted that is still less than a 1% chance looking at the current crop, but we can at least hope.
Just seen a replay of the Cameron QT. Worst performance I have ever seen from him.The wheels have come off ,he is worn out and I cannot see him as PM much longer even if Remain wins.
Cameron was actually quite good.
Totally floundered on immigration and plain shifty on Turkey which everyone in the audience saw .We are being conned big time on the deal with Turkey as we will find out soon after Thursday.
Turkey will not be a member for the following reasons [ amongst many others ]:
Greece will veto
Cyprus will veto.
France will hold a referendum before it votes
Virtually all East European racist countries will veto.
Turkey may not be that interested after all as it already has some access to the Single Marget. Plus being the 15th largest economy in the world, 6th largest if it was in the EU, it is the EU who may want Turkey to be in.
I am the son of an immigrant-for me this vote has never been about immigration. So many of you on this site bang on about immigration is all Leavers are interested in that you now believe your own narrtive.
So let me be clear- I am the son of an immigrant My name is spelt "funny" I dont need sun tan lotion in June
I am voting Leave
I AM NOT RACIST
A major reason Remain are in such a mess is because they simply do not understand how many people in this Country feel and just assume anyone voting Leave is racist because Farage is in favour of Leave
The referendum has been really awful for English politics, hasn't it? Imagine if there were one each time a new EU treaty were to be ratified, as desired by some in both REMAIN and LEAVE.
But that wouldnt be a stay or go, it would be a status quo or a bit deeper. If we had had a referenda on every EU treaty we would still have the old common market. Something most people are quite happy with. There's no way the SEA, treaty of the EU and the subsequent ones would have passed the British public.
It looks like they all will pass the British public?
In the sense that we are voting for the accumulation of them on thursday? I suppose yes. But those treaties were a progression down a path. We are at the bottom of that path now. We arent given the option to get back to the top of the path. It's bottom of the path or leave.
Just seen a replay of the Cameron QT. Worst performance I have ever seen from him.The wheels have come off ,he is worn out and I cannot see him as PM much longer even if Remain wins.
Cameron was actually quite good.
Totally floundered on immigration and plain shifty on Turkey which everyone in the audience saw .We are being conned big time on the deal with Turkey as we will find out soon after Thursday.
Visa free access to the EU from Turkey is not far away, visitors within the next thirty days and workers within the next two years. It's only Turkey's reluctance to reform some of its own laws that is holding this back.
Yes and it is disingenuous to say this will only apply to Schengen- there will be a similar deal for the UK and non- Schengen countries.This is why he is squirming because he knows it's not about EU admission in the short term. He is a twister.
Now that does make sense. Trouble is, if Labour were in power, we wouldn't be having a referendum at all.
Well, quite. And if you believe the warnings that Cameron and Osborne have been issuing (and to some extent I do), isn't it totally irresponsible that they've given a roughly 50% shot at what they see as a catastrophe for Britain? It's fair enough to have a referendum if you can see that there are two reasonsable choices and it's up to the electorate to pick the one they want, but if they really do think that one option is a disaster, should it be dangled in front of the electorate?
I don't think that they really thought it'd be hard to win, so they just offered it as an election sweetener for UKIP-leaning voters.
Well, Mr Cameron's statement from 2015 has been posted enough times on this board. It's clear that he himself then believed (or purported to believe) that the two choices were both reasonable.
As for deliberately instructing the CS not to do contingency planning - one would expect they'd done that prior to Mr Cameron's 2015 statement, otherwise what was it based on?
But I'm afraid Mr Cameron has devalued his own words - he has no credibility left.
The only alternative I can see is that he did mean what he said at the time (about good deal or recommend Leave) but something changed his mind and he decided to ram us into the EU at all costs. If that was so, and he now truly believes his armageddon scenario, he'd do better to be up-front and explain.
The referendum has been really awful for English politics, hasn't it? Imagine if there were one each time a new EU treaty were to be ratified, as desired by some in both REMAIN and LEAVE.
There is a non zero chance politicians will grow up.
Granted that is still less than a 1% chance looking at the current crop, but we can at least hope.
Politicians respond to incentives. A nice campaign, fighting a real campaign based on fear and greed, would have been utterly crucified. Cameron's performances summarise what such a campaign would look like on the REMAIN side, i.e. bloodless without Osborne to run Project Petrified.
There won''t be another referendum and that includes when there's further attempts to integrate.
This is it.
Well, there is a law that says any further transfer of sovereignty has to pass a referendum...He could repeal that after an in vote. Not sure he'd get it through though.
Now that does make sense. Trouble is, if Labour were in power, we wouldn't be having a referendum at all.
Well, quite. And if you believe the warnings that Cameron and Osborne have been issuing (and to some extent I do), isn't it totally irresponsible that they've given a roughly 50% shot at what they see as a catastrophe for Britain? It's fair enough to have a referendum if you can see that there are two reasonsable choices and it's up to the electorate to pick the one they want, but if they really do think that one option is a disaster, should it be dangled in front of the electorate?
I don't think that they really thought it'd be hard to win, so they just offered it as an election sweetener for UKIP-leaning voters.
Well, Mr Cameron's statement from 2015 has been posted enough times on this board. It's clear that he himself then believed (or purported to believe) that the two choices were both reasonable.
As for deliberately instructing the CS not to do contingency planning - one would expect they'd done that prior to Mr Cameron's 2015 statement, otherwise what was it based on?
But I'm afraid Mr Cameron has devalued his own words - he has no credibility left.
The only alternative I can see is that he did mean what he said at the time (about good deal or recommend Leave) but something changed his mind and he decided to ram us into the EU at all costs. If that was so, and he now truly believes his armageddon scenario, he'd do better to be up-front and explain.
That's just silly.
His view is the same as mine. Of course the UK could do quite well outside the EU. But (a) not as well as inside it, (b) not without a massive disruption in leaving, and (c) only if we accept a lot of the things which the Leavers promise us we won't have to accept.
The contingency planning point is completely absurd. How can you do planning when the Leave side refused until a few weeks ago to give even the vaguest outline of what political direction they were arguing for?
He had good training and preparation while in Russia I presume...
Who knows.... That said, there is much in the way of international cooperation that has nothing to do with the EU.
Indeed. Which is why opting out of the EU doesn't shield us from globalisation; possibly quite the opposite.
Sorry.. We opt into some international agreements and not others. We have choices.
The things that concern people are:
1. Immigration
2. Loss of sovereignty.
I should add that no other trading block operates like the EU. They started looking to it as a model, now they use it as an example not to follow. There is a reason for that.
The contingency planning point is completely absurd. How can you do planning when the Leave side refused until a few weeks ago to give even the vaguest outline of what political direction they were arguing for?
I get the sense that the kind of planning some would have liked to see is something akin to a Whitehall coup to give them a free pass to vote for whatever flavour of free lunch the Leave campaign decide to peddle, safe in the knowledge that grown ups are waiting in the wings to take over and implement something sensible while keeping the Brexiteers away from the levers of power.
I think No 10 are really scraping the barrel now with Baroness Warsi. I doubt if the vast majority of the public have even heard of her but I expect she will be all over the BBC tomorrow.
I should add that no other trading block operates like the EU. They started looking to it as a model, now they use it as an example not to follow. There is a reason for that.
The reason being that they want a model for a trading block, which the EU is much more than. It's a political federation.
I don't understand people complaining about this referendum. I am enjoying it - politics should be about big questions like this which is why I want out so that we can actually debate the big issues of this country without having to adhere to EU law. How refreshing to debate the death penalty, nationalisation and prisoners votes in our great imperial parliament?
It should be tiring, hard and a challenge. This is how politics should be done: it should infuriate you, it should make you laugh, it should make you feel nervous, it should *matter*.
Now that does make sense. Trouble is, if Labour were in power, we wouldn't be having a referendum at all.
Well, quite. And if you believe the warnings that Cameron and Osborne have been issuing (and to some extent I do), isn't it totally irresponsible that they've given a roughly 50% shot at what they see as a catastrophe for Britain? It's fair enough to have a referendum if you can see that there are two reasonsable choices and it's up to the electorate to pick the one they want, but if they really do think that one option is a disaster, should it be dangled in front of the electorate?
I don't think that they really thought it'd be hard to win, so they just offered it as an election sweetener for UKIP-leaning voters.
Well, Mr Cameron's statement from 2015 has been posted enough times on this board. It's clear that he himself then believed (or purported to believe) that the two choices were both reasonable.
As for deliberately instructing the CS not to do contingency planning - one would expect they'd done that prior to Mr Cameron's 2015 statement, otherwise what was it based on?
But I'm afraid Mr Cameron has devalued his own words - he has no credibility left.
The only alternative I can see is that he did mean what he said at the time (about good deal or recommend Leave) but something changed his mind and he decided to ram us into the EU at all costs. If that was so, and he now truly believes his armageddon scenario, he'd do better to be up-front and explain.
That's just silly.
His view is the same as mine. Of course the UK could do quite well outside the EU. But (a) not as well as inside it, (b) not without a massive disruption in leaving, and (c) only if we accept a lot of the things which the Leavers promise us we won't have to accept.
The contingency planning point is completely absurd. How can you do planning when the Leave side refused until a few weeks ago to give even the vaguest outline of what political direction they were arguing for?
Governments, businesses and other organisations do contingency planning all the time with only a vague outline to work from.
TSE has been heavily engaged in Brexit contingency planning, from what he's posted. His firm have no more idea of what will happen than HM Government.
There are so many effects from migration that it is hard to say as an amateur what would happen. Undoubtedly more old British people and fewer young Continental and Irish people. The effect of LEAVE on other non-British people is unclear, probably non-negative; some in LEAVE actually say they would increase Pakistani/Nigerian/etc immigration to compensate for lost French/Italian workers. Demographic implications for the economy; nurses and carers in high demand; a lot less demand for restaurants. The other economic effects are harder to guess. Presumably stable wages in production and industry due to trade pressure; low-wage production activities like ag workers leave the country outright. Some internationally-traded services would leave the country to reside in the EU, but very top bankers might stay as there would still be plenty of US-UK trade in a London head office. Wages for non-traded services like plumbers and carers might rise, but the implicit consequence is less labour supply, consumers having to accept more limited access to these services at higher prices. One can't have wage increases in many sectors without a general effect on the overall price level.
I don't understand people complaining about this referendum. I am enjoying it - politics should be about big questions like this which is why I want out so that we can actually debate the big issues of this country without having to adhere to EU law. How refreshing to debate the death penalty, nationalisation and prisoners votes in our great imperial parliament?
It should be tiring, hard and a challenge. This is how politics should be done: it should infuriate you, it should make you laugh, it should make you feel nervous, it should *matter*.
I don't understand people complaining about this referendum. I am enjoying it - politics should be about big questions like this which is why I want out so that we can actually debate the big issues of this country without having to adhere to EU law. How refreshing to debate the death penalty, nationalisation and prisoners votes in our great imperial parliament?
It should be tiring, hard and a challenge. This is how politics should be done: it should infuriate you, it should make you laugh, it should make you feel nervous, it should *matter*.
We already knew politics mattered, we here bang on about it all the time. It doesn't need to be so vicious though.
I think No 10 are really scraping the barrel now with Baroness Warsi. I doubt if the vast majority of the public have even heard of her but I expect she will be all over the BBC tomorrow.
Like I keep saying,the TV news are slanted on remain side and this story will be used to hit our fellow ethnic minorities leave voters.
I should add that no other trading block operates like the EU. They started looking to it as a model, now they use it as an example not to follow. There is a reason for that.
The reason being that they want a model for a trading block, which the EU is much more than. It's a political federation.
Exactly. The UK doesn't want it and increasingly the people of Europe are deciding they don't either as the penny drops.
I don't understand people complaining about this referendum. I am enjoying it - politics should be about big questions like this which is why I want out so that we can actually debate the big issues of this country without having to adhere to EU law. How refreshing to debate the death penalty, nationalisation and prisoners votes in our great imperial parliament?
It should be tiring, hard and a challenge. This is how politics should be done: it should infuriate you, it should make you laugh, it should make you feel nervous, it should *matter*.
'Our great imperial parliament'? You said in another post today that you're a young person. I suggest you stop longing to relive past lives.
If the referendum campaign leads you to make comments like the one below you should take stock and get your emotions under control...
If you think your going to get away with this on the sly you've another thing coming. And the immigration issue is a pressure cooker waiting to explode. You'll all rue the day.
A broken man who will still likely win on Thursday
Have we seen any campaign that thought it had Cameron on the ropes on the issues, but lost because of the poor public image of its leadership, in the last 13.5 months or so?
There won''t be another referendum and that includes when there's further attempts to integrate.
This is it.
Well, there is a law that says any further transfer of sovereignty has to pass a referendum...He could repeal that after an in vote. Not sure he'd get it through though.
He would. Labour MPs will justify supporting it on the basis that this referendum has been so divisive and has cost the life of their blessed colleague Jo Cox, that we should never again have to inflict such trauma on the people....
I am the son of an immigrant-for me this vote has never been about immigration. So many of you on this site bang on about immigration is all Leavers are interested in that you now believe your own narrtive.
So let me be clear- I am the son of an immigrant My name is spelt "funny" I dont need sun tan lotion in June
I am voting Leave
I AM NOT RACIST
A major reason Remain are in such a mess is because they simply do not understand how many people in this Country feel and just assume anyone voting Leave is racist because Farage is in favour of Leave
But to repeat my answer to your question.
Sensible solution to a practical problem.
You must feel very embarrassed by the Leave campaign then. An Italian friend told me Corriere Della Sera did an article on British immigrants who wanted to close the door behind them.
There won''t be another referendum and that includes when there's further attempts to integrate.
This is it.
Well, there is a law that says any further transfer of sovereignty has to pass a referendum...He could repeal that after an in vote. Not sure he'd get it through though.
He would. Labour MPs will justify supporting it on the basis that this referendum has been so divisive and has cost the life of their blessed colleague Jo Cox, that we should never again have to inflict such trauma on the people....
We will have to see how that plays with the public...
I am the son of an immigrant-for me this vote has never been about immigration. So many of you on this site bang on about immigration is all Leavers are interested in that you now believe your own narrtive.
So let me be clear- I am the son of an immigrant My name is spelt "funny" I dont need sun tan lotion in June
I am voting Leave
I AM NOT RACIST
A major reason Remain are in such a mess is because they simply do not understand how many people in this Country feel and just assume anyone voting Leave is racist because Farage is in favour of Leave
But to repeat my answer to your question.
Sensible solution to a practical problem.
You must feel very embarrassed by the Leave campaign then. An Italian friend told me Corriere Della Sera did an article on British immigrants who wanted to close the door behind them.
A broken man who will still likely win on Thursday
Have we seen any campaign that thought it had Cameron on the ropes on the issues, but lost because of the poor public image of its leadership, in the last 13.5 months or so?
Just watching the QT - Cameron looks utterly dreadful. Pallor, bags under eyes, hair apparently greying...
I agree and he desperately needs a break but he won't get one, whichever way the vote goes.
Why do Tories hate him so much ?
Why do you like him so much ? I thought you hated Tory b*stards.
I do not like any Tory. Maybe Ken Clarke excepted. But your hatred for Cameron is unbelievable.
You should be pleased. All Labour has to do is get their act together and the Tories will be out of power for years after what Cameron and Osborne have done to them.
I don't understand people complaining about this referendum. I am enjoying it - politics should be about big questions like this which is why I want out so that we can actually debate the big issues of this country without having to adhere to EU law. How refreshing to debate the death penalty, nationalisation and prisoners votes in our great imperial parliament?
It should be tiring, hard and a challenge. This is how politics should be done: it should infuriate you, it should make you laugh, it should make you feel nervous, it should *matter*.
'Our great imperial parliament'? You said in another post today that you're a young person. I suggest you stop longing to relive past lives.
If the referendum campaign leads you to make comments like the one below you should take stock and get your emotions under control...
If you think your going to get away with this on the sly you've another thing coming. And the immigration issue is a pressure cooker waiting to explode. You'll all rue the day.
There's nothing "living in the past" about holding immense respect a chamber that for hundreds of years has held power and exercised power over a great many of decisions: slavery, the creation of numerous countries, votes for women, votes for the working class. For all my disagreements with those inside, I know that chamber matters immensely and I am able to voice my opinion in there via my elected member of parliament.
I want that chamber to continue to matter, not to become subject to a grey, completely alien and powerless rubber-stamp parliament located in another country.
Just watching the QT - Cameron looks utterly dreadful. Pallor, bags under eyes, hair apparently greying...
I agree and he desperately needs a break but he won't get one, whichever way the vote goes.
Why do Tories hate him so much ?
Why do you like him so much ? I thought you hated Tory b*stards.
I do not like any Tory. Maybe Ken Clarke excepted. But your hatred for Cameron is unbelievable.
You should be pleased. All Labour has to do is get their act together and the Tories will be out of power for years after what Cameron and Osborne have done to them.
I don't understand people complaining about this referendum. I am enjoying it - politics should be about big questions like this which is why I want out so that we can actually debate the big issues of this country without having to adhere to EU law. How refreshing to debate the death penalty, nationalisation and prisoners votes in our great imperial parliament?
It should be tiring, hard and a challenge. This is how politics should be done: it should infuriate you, it should make you laugh, it should make you feel nervous, it should *matter*.
'Our great imperial parliament'? You said in another post today that you're a young person. I suggest you stop longing to relive past lives.
If the referendum campaign leads you to make comments like the one below you should take stock and get your emotions under control...
If you think your going to get away with this on the sly you've another thing coming. And the immigration issue is a pressure cooker waiting to explode. You'll all rue the day.
There's nothing "living in the past" about holding immense respect a chamber that for hundreds of years has held power and exercised power over a great many of decisions: slavery, the creation of numerous countries, votes for women, votes for the working class. For all my disagreements with those inside, I know that chamber matters immensely and I am able to voice my opinion in there via my elected member of parliament.
I want that chamber to continue to matter, not to become subject to a grey, completely alien and powerless rubber-stamp parliament located in another country.
How good can it be if it is the subject of a powerless rubber-stamp parliament? It must be really powerless and worn-rubber stamp. It is funny how the EU can be simultaneously dictatorial/totalitarian and cuckolded/impotent. Probably most Brits don't like MPs so much (more a Yank thing, like Magna Carta).
Just watching the QT - Cameron looks utterly dreadful. Pallor, bags under eyes, hair apparently greying...
I agree and he desperately needs a break but he won't get one, whichever way the vote goes.
Why do Tories hate him so much ?
Why do you like him so much ? I thought you hated Tory b*stards.
I do not like any Tory. Maybe Ken Clarke excepted. But your hatred for Cameron is unbelievable.
You should be pleased. All Labour has to do is get their act together and the Tories will be out of power for years after what Cameron and Osborne have done to them.
Labour is finished. A thing of the past (apart from in London). But if it's Remain, so are the Tories.
Huge gap in the market for a socially conservative, fiscally liberal, Brexit party. That's where England (outside London) is.
What makes Europe, Europe is 3 things. 1) Geography 2) European People 3) Shared Christian Heritage & Democracy
But for the EU; - Turkey is in Asia, so Geography is irrelevant - Diversity means the European people are irrelevant - The EU is secular and the structure is undemocratic.
The EU has nothing to do with Europe.
Cameron's performance tonight & reception shows how the people are fed up of being taken for fools and being lied to. People are wise to gaps in the answers and credibility is shot.
What makes Europe, Europe is 3 things. 1) Geography 2) European People 3) Shared Christian Heritage & Democracy
But for the EU; - Turkey is in Asia, so Geography is irrelevant - Diversity means the European people are irrelevant - The EU is secular and the structure is undemocratic.
The EU has nothing to do with Europe.
Cameron's performance tonight & reception shows how the people are fed up of being taken for fools and being lied to. People are wise to gaps in the answers and credibility is shot.
Conservatives wish to conserve the country they find themselves in, its history, its people. England & Scotland were founded as monarchies and united by a monarch.
Republican & Tory?
Mind cant be any worse than a pro-EU Conservative PM & Chancellor. Work that one out. I cant.
Cameron kept quoting expert views ... thank God we never took the experts views into the Euro or with their fantastic clairvoyance on the Banking crisis ;-) We are in such an economic strength in the EU the central Bankers are printing notes until they will become worthless.
Just seen a replay of the Cameron QT. Worst performance I have ever seen from him.The wheels have come off ,he is worn out and I cannot see him as PM much longer even if Remain wins.
Cameron was actually quite good.
Totally floundered on immigration and plain shifty on Turkey which everyone in the audience saw .We are being conned big time on the deal with Turkey as we will find out soon after Thursday.
Turkey will not be a member for the following reasons [ amongst many others ]:
Greece will veto
Cyprus will veto.
France will hold a referendum before it votes
Virtually all East European racist countries will veto.
Turkey may not be that interested after all as it already has some access to the Single Marget. Plus being the 15th largest economy in the world, 6th largest if it was in the EU, it is the EU who may want Turkey to be in.
Why do want to be in a political Union with "all the racist Eastern European countries"?
Also you imply the E.U needs Turkey more than Turkey needs the E.U as it is the 15th largest economy. Presumably than you think the fifth largest economy would have an even greater bargaining power over the E.U?
Just seen a replay of the Cameron QT. Worst performance I have ever seen from him.The wheels have come off ,he is worn out and I cannot see him as PM much longer even if Remain wins.
Cameron was actually quite good.
Totally floundered on immigration and plain shifty on Turkey which everyone in the audience saw .We are being conned big time on the deal with Turkey as we will find out soon after Thursday.
Turkey will not be a member for the following reasons [ amongst many others ]:
Greece will veto
Cyprus will veto.
France will hold a referendum before it votes
Virtually all East European racist countries will veto.
Turkey may not be that interested after all as it already has some access to the Single Marget. Plus being the 15th largest economy in the world, 6th largest if it was in the EU, it is the EU who may want Turkey to be in.
Presumably than you think the fifth largest economy would have an even greater bargaining power over the E.U?
The fifth largest economy isn't currently hosting over 2 million refugees trying to cross into the EU.......
At PB.com we're used to seeking out the very best value bets available in all the myriad of markets available both online and on the High Street, with the conventional bookies as well as on the exchanges and on offer from the spreadbetting firms.
It's a highly competitive world out there and one of the ways, these organisations have found of both improving their margins as well as standing out from the crowd is by offering "special" bets.
Ladbrokes has proved to be one of the innovators in the field with its specials, centred for example, on the annual Budget and the colour of the Chancellor's tie, the number of sips of water he will take during his speech, as well as featuring a long list of possible "buzz words".
In the main it's good harmless fun. But I have to say I'm fairly unimpressed with their range of nine "Referendum Specials", only one of which imho offers what can be remotely considered as being good value.
The worst must surely be their "Cameron to be replaced as Prime Minister by 1st July 2016" on offer at just 8/1. They know and we know that for Cameron to be replaced requires, inter alia, a nationwide ballot of Tory members, let alone a nomination process as well as a possible series of votes by Conservative MPS. This entire process, even if rushed through, is likely to take at least 2-3 months and for Ladbrokes to pretend that it might actually be completed within the next 12 days is clearly a patent nonsense.
The second worst value of the nine bets has to be their "Turnover higher than the Scottish IndyRef i.e. 84.6%" for which they offer the princely odds of 10/1 ..... I'd want something like ten times those odds or more to be even remotely tempted.
The one value bet out of the nine "Referendum Specials"? As I've suggested previously, their "Less than 1% margin of victory for either side" on offer at 12/1. Now they're talking!
The worst must surely be their "Cameron to be replaced as Prime Minister by 1st July 2016" on offer at just 8/1. They know and we know that for Cameron to be replaced requires, inter alia, a nationwide ballot of Tory members, let alone a nomination process as well as a possible series of votes by Conservative MPS. This entire process, even if rushed through, is likely to take at least 2-3 months and for Ladbrokes to pretend that it might actually be completed within the next 12 days is clearly a patent nonsense.
IDS vote of no confidence was passed on 29 October and Michael Howard elected unopposed on 6th November - so in theory 1 July is just possible - but the chances of a Cameron replacement being elected unopposed must be vanishingly small. Too much bad blood. And more to be spilled.
What makes Europe, Europe is 3 things. 1) Geography 2) European People 3) Shared Christian Heritage & Democracy
But for the EU; - Turkey is in Asia, so Geography is irrelevant - Diversity means the European people are irrelevant - The EU is secular and the structure is undemocratic.
The EU has nothing to do with Europe.
Cameron's performance tonight & reception shows how the people are fed up of being taken for fools and being lied to. People are wise to gaps in the answers and credibility is shot.
Yep, it's a death house for Europeans.
I don't understand. What do you mean by death house?
The worst must surely be their "Cameron to be replaced as Prime Minister by 1st July 2016" on offer at just 8/1. They know and we know that for Cameron to be replaced requires, inter alia, a nationwide ballot of Tory members, let alone a nomination process as well as a possible series of votes by Conservative MPS. This entire process, even if rushed through, is likely to take at least 2-3 months and for Ladbrokes to pretend that it might actually be completed within the next 12 days is clearly a patent nonsense.
IDS vote of no confidence was passed on 29 October and Michael Howard elected unopposed on 6th November - so in theory 1 July is just possible - but the chances of a Cameron replacement being elected unopposed must be vanishingly small. Too much bad blood. And more to be spilled.
I think Peter is confusing PM and Leader of the Conservative Party. Party leadership requires the process he outlined. Becoming PM requires kissing the Queen's hand in the event Dave walks after s leave victory.
Some unintentionally heartening worlds from the heart of the EUs lair:
A colleague of Mr Juncker fears that, "come hell, wind or high water” the 'Out' side will turn out to vote: “They will be queuing round the block like at the end of apartheid South Africa.”
Conservatives wish to conserve the country they find themselves in, its history, its people. England & Scotland were founded as monarchies and united by a monarch.
Republican & Tory?
Mind cant be any worse than a pro-EU Conservative PM & Chancellor. Work that one out. I cant.
There are a number of academics who are right-wing economically but also republicans and a few socialist monarchists. In the U.S. conservatives are very rightwing but not one would wish to replace the president with a monarch again as it was before the War of Independence
Comments
I am the son of an immigrant-for me this vote has never been about immigration.
So many of you on this site bang on about immigration is all Leavers are interested in that you now believe your own narrtive.
So let me be clear-
I am the son of an immigrant
My name is spelt "funny"
I dont need sun tan lotion in June
I am voting Leave
I AM NOT RACIST
A major reason Remain are in such a mess is because they simply do not understand how many people in this Country feel and just assume anyone voting Leave is racist because Farage is in favour of Leave
But to repeat my answer to your question.
Sensible solution to a practical problem.
I don't mine Leavers arguments about pure sovereignty. Fair point. If you object to any pooling then you object. But I object to red herrings.
There won''t be another referendum and that includes when there's further attempts to integrate.
This is it.
Granted that is still less than a 1% chance looking at the current crop, but we can at least hope.
Greece will veto
Cyprus will veto.
France will hold a referendum before it votes
Virtually all East European racist countries will veto.
Turkey may not be that interested after all as it already has some access to the Single Marget.
Plus being the 15th largest economy in the world, 6th largest if it was in the EU, it is the EU who may want Turkey to be in.
for the UK and non- Schengen countries.This is why he is squirming because he knows it's not about EU admission in the short term. He is a twister.
As for deliberately instructing the CS not to do contingency planning - one would expect they'd done that prior to Mr Cameron's 2015 statement, otherwise what was it based on?
But I'm afraid Mr Cameron has devalued his own words - he has no credibility left.
The only alternative I can see is that he did mean what he said at the time (about good deal or recommend Leave) but something changed his mind and he decided to ram us into the EU at all costs. If that was so, and he now truly believes his armageddon scenario, he'd do better to be up-front and explain.
http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/8773
"Placing the statue at St Thomas' labelling Seacole a "pioneer nurse" would be wrong," said the Nightingale Society in a statement.
"Seacole was not a nurse but proprietress of a bar and restaurant for officers."
More info
http://www.historytoday.com/lynn-mcdonald/florence-nightingale-and-mary-seacole-nursings-bitter-rivalry
His view is the same as mine. Of course the UK could do quite well outside the EU. But (a) not as well as inside it, (b) not without a massive disruption in leaving, and (c) only if we accept a lot of the things which the Leavers promise us we won't have to accept.
The contingency planning point is completely absurd. How can you do planning when the Leave side refused until a few weeks ago to give even the vaguest outline of what political direction they were arguing for?
The things that concern people are:
1. Immigration
2. Loss of sovereignty.
I should add that no other trading block operates like the EU. They started looking to it as a model, now they use it as an example not to follow. There is a reason for that.
It should be tiring, hard and a challenge. This is how politics should be done: it should infuriate you, it should make you laugh, it should make you feel nervous, it should *matter*.
TSE has been heavily engaged in Brexit contingency planning, from what he's posted. His firm have no more idea of what will happen than HM Government.
Yes, indeed.
Goodnight, all
https://twitter.com/chrisshipitv/status/744664425366433792
If the referendum campaign leads you to make comments like the one below you should take stock and get your emotions under control...
https://twitter.com/Daily_Express/status/744655501342871552
Six months?
I want that chamber to continue to matter, not to become subject to a grey, completely alien and powerless rubber-stamp parliament located in another country.
What have I to be thankful of camerons lies or the other main parties ?
Huge gap in the market for a socially conservative, fiscally liberal, Brexit party. That's where England (outside London) is.
http://southporttimes.co.uk/?p=1738
I still think bradford will vote remain because of the scare stories and the story from Warsi won't help.
What makes Europe, Europe is 3 things.
1) Geography
2) European People
3) Shared Christian Heritage & Democracy
But for the EU;
- Turkey is in Asia, so Geography is irrelevant
- Diversity means the European people are irrelevant
- The EU is secular and the structure is undemocratic.
The EU has nothing to do with Europe.
Cameron's performance tonight & reception shows how the people are fed up of being taken for fools and being lied to. People are wise to gaps in the answers and credibility is shot.
Isnt that Oxymoronic?
Tories are monarchist.
Conservatives wish to conserve the country they find themselves in, its history, its people. England & Scotland were founded as monarchies and united by a monarch.
Republican & Tory?
Mind cant be any worse than a pro-EU Conservative PM & Chancellor. Work that one out. I cant.
For the chop surely?
Also you imply the E.U needs Turkey more than Turkey needs the E.U as it is the 15th largest economy. Presumably than you think the fifth largest economy would have an even greater bargaining power over the E.U?
It's a highly competitive world out there and one of the ways, these organisations have found of both improving their margins as well as standing out from the crowd is by offering "special" bets.
Ladbrokes has proved to be one of the innovators in the field with its specials, centred for example, on the annual Budget and the colour of the Chancellor's tie, the number of sips of water he will take during his speech, as well as featuring a long list of possible "buzz words".
In the main it's good harmless fun. But I have to say I'm fairly unimpressed with their range of nine "Referendum Specials", only one of which imho offers what can be remotely considered as being good value.
The worst must surely be their "Cameron to be replaced as Prime Minister by 1st July 2016" on offer at just 8/1. They know and we know that for Cameron to be replaced requires, inter alia, a nationwide ballot of Tory members, let alone a nomination process as well as a possible series of votes by Conservative MPS. This entire process, even if rushed through, is likely to take at least 2-3 months and for Ladbrokes to pretend that it might actually be completed within the next 12 days is clearly a patent nonsense.
The second worst value of the nine bets has to be their "Turnover higher than the Scottish IndyRef i.e. 84.6%" for which they offer the princely odds of 10/1 ..... I'd want something like ten times those odds or more to be even remotely tempted.
The one value bet out of the nine "Referendum Specials"? As I've suggested previously, their "Less than 1% margin of victory for either side" on offer at 12/1. Now they're talking!
The British pound also was higher, gaining 1.4% to the US dollar and 1.9% to the Japanese yen.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36573209
I don't think 8/1 is outrageously bad.
A colleague of Mr Juncker fears that, "come hell, wind or high water” the 'Out' side will turn out to vote: “They will be queuing round the block like at the end of apartheid South Africa.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/19/fear-and-loathing-as-brussels-braces-for-brexit-calamity/
Plenty more brexitporn from EU officials who l"ike everyone in Brussels asked not to be named for fear of rocking the boat at such a delicate moment"