I found it lazy and thoughtless - the over-used trope of 'post-truth politics' is driving me mental at the moment.
Both major UK parties are to blame for failing to ensure that the impact of mass migration did not damage the working poor (or however you want to classify them).
They've had years to do so, and did not. Further (and this has continued right through the campaign), a large section of those who have prospered continue to just shriek 'racist' at every conceivable opportunity.
This is not post-truth politics. It's this-is-what-happens-when-you-ignore-half-your-voters politics.
In conclusion, I'd like to say: this is not rocket science, for fuck's sake.
CLAPS
Huh
. Migrants do the jobs that the indigenous Brits won't.
The usual casual bigotry and racism.
Migrants do the jobs for lower pay and under worse conditions and in a more servile manner is what you should have said.
Thats how you categorise it. Ask the farmers in Norfolk who cannot get brits to pull the crops..
Leave is full of lies, but so are Remain. The difference is that Leave are xenophobic in many of the things they say. Go and talk to some leavers on the street and all they say is that they want to stop immigration/ kick migrants out.. That's it.. its a one subject agenda.
REMAIN are RACISTS because the present EU immigration rules favour predominantly white EU countries over predominantly non-white non-EU countries.
RACIST REMAINERS!
Something occurred to me reading this.
Given how successful trump is with his adjective insult campaign, shouldn't Racist Remainers be the clarion call of the Leave campaign. It certainly seems to have traction. Little Marco, Lyin' Ted and Low Energy Jeb certainly seemed to work.
It might have some traction except:
1) accusing someone of being racist is usually a sign of a lost argument
2) rather like the Little Englander jibe it is likely to backfire. Many Britons would prefer migrants to be of white Christian heritage.
Poles, Romanians, Bulgarians are of white Christian heritage.
SKY News paper review _ weve had to take the front page of The Times off for the time being mmmm
Indeed, and not long ago he was offering a completely different opinion. The Uk can of course prosper outside the EU or words to that effect. Indeed go back a little further and he was saying that if he didn't get a good enough deal he might even lead the Leave campaign.
Now was he lying to us then or now?
Eited extra bit: Sorry My comment was not made in response to Marke09, but to another post which seems to have gone.
I found it lazy and thoughtless - the over-used trope of 'post-truth politics' is driving me mental at the moment.
Both major UK parties are to blame for failing to ensure that the impact of mass migration did not damage the working poor (or however you want to classify them).
They've had years to do so, and did not. Further (and this has continued right through the campaign), a large section of those who have prospered continue to just shriek 'racist' at every conceivable opportunity.
This is not post-truth politics. It's this-is-what-happens-when-you-ignore-half-your-voters politics.
In conclusion, I'd like to say: this is not rocket science, for fuck's sake.
CLAPS
Huh
. Migrants do the jobs that the indigenous Brits won't.
The usual casual bigotry and racism.
Migrants do the jobs for lower pay and under worse conditions and in a more servile manner is what you should have said.
Thats how you categorise it. Ask the farmers in Norfolk who cannot get brits to pull the crops..
Leave is full of lies, but so are Remain. The difference is that Leave are xenophobic in many of the things they say. Go and talk to some leavers on the street and all they say is that they want to stop immigration/ kick migrants out.. That's it.. its a one subject agenda.
So who did the Norfolk farmers get to pull the crops ten or twenty years ago ?
I suppose the Norfolk working class would now be classified as wicked layabouts for wanting enough wages to pay the rent on a proper house instead of living a dozen to a wooden hut.
It's a fair point. But what it also means is higher prices, or more imports and no jobs.
Sounds like we also need stronger trade unions.
Or it could mean higher labour costs leading to more innovation and investment (what happened in the industrial revolution) and therefore cheaper food and higher productivity.
And so fewer jobs.
Which are currently being done by migrant labour, so if they went home... it would mean better paid jobs for those remaining, them spending more money creating more jobs.
Sorry, did you want to go back to the pre industrial age?
I found it lazy and thoughtless - the over-used trope of 'post-truth politics' is driving me mental at the moment.
Both major UK parties are to blame for failing to ensure that the impact of mass migration did not damage the working poor (or however you want to classify them).
They've had years to do so, and did not. Further (and this has continued right through the campaign), a large section of those who have prospered continue to just shriek 'racist' at every conceivable opportunity.
This is not post-truth politics. It's this-is-what-happens-when-you-ignore-half-your-voters politics.
In conclusion, I'd like to say: this is not rocket science, for fuck's sake.
CLAPS
Huh
. Migrants do the jobs that the indigenous Brits won't.
The usual casual bigotry and racism.
Migrants do the jobs for lower pay and under worse conditions and in a more servile manner is what you should have said.
Thats how you categorise it. Ask the farmers in Norfolk who cannot get brits to pull the crops..
Leave is full of lies, but so are Remain. The difference is that Leave are xenophobic in many of the things they say. Go and talk to some leavers on the street and all they say is that they want to stop immigration/ kick migrants out.. That's it.. its a one subject agenda.
REMAIN are RACISTS because the present EU immigration rules favour predominantly white EU countries over predominantly non-white non-EU countries.
RACIST REMAINERS!
Something occurred to me reading this.
Given how successful trump is with his adjective insult campaign, shouldn't Racist Remainers be the clarion call of the Leave campaign. It certainly seems to have traction. Little Marco, Lyin' Ted and Low Energy Jeb certainly seemed to work.
It might have some traction except:
1) accusing someone of being racist is usually a sign of a lost argument
2) rather like the Little Englander jibe it is likely to backfire. Many Britons would prefer migrants to be of white Christian heritage.
Poles, Romanians, Bulgarians are of white Christian heritage.
SKY News paper review _ weve had to take the front page of The Times off for the time being mmmm
Indeed, and not long ago he was offering a completely different opinion. The Uk can of course prosper outside the EU or words to that effect. Indeed go back a little further and he was saying that if he didn't get a good enough deal he might even lead the Leave campaign.
Now was he lying to us then or now?
Eited extra bit: Sorry My comment was not made in response to Marke09, but to another post which seems to have gone.
Sayeeda WarsiVerified account @SayeedaWarsi For those of us committed to @vote_leave this unholy alliance between small minded little islanders & optimistic hello worlders is a strain
In turmoil apparently... Having lost a driving force of the campaign like Warsi...
Warsi will not change even one vote. Apparently, not even her own. Johnson's "amnesty" will not be music to the ears of many vile racists who support the Leave campaign.
Just seen a replay of the Cameron QT. Worst performance I have ever seen from him.The wheels have come off ,he is worn out and I cannot see him as PM much longer even if Remain wins.
1. She's after a ministerial job back and hasn't clocked that she'd just jumped the wrong way.
or
2. She's genuinely shifted position on the basis of a triviality. As a politician, whether you're Leave or Remain, you shouldn't be deciding because of how some on one side or the other have behaved. The decision is bigger than that.
Just seen a replay of the Cameron QT. Worst performance I have ever seen from him.The wheels have come off ,he is worn out and I cannot see him as PM much longer even if Remain wins.
Not quite sure we've been watching the same TV station.
The Brexit Campaign only managed a take off when the xenophobic card was played. It was a disgrace and reduced the debate to a sad 'them and us' wrangle.
We all have to get on together after the Referendum but the tone of the campaign has made that very difficult.
Just seen a replay of the Cameron QT. Worst performance I have ever seen from him.The wheels have come off ,he is worn out and I cannot see him as PM much longer even if Remain wins.
Not quite sure we've been watching the same TV station.
The 'Breaking Point' poster was the "breaking point".
Which PBer was it who claimed Farage was a deep sleeper agent for Remain?
Farage isn't a sleeper agent for REMAIN. Farage is in it for Farage...
Corbyn's a sleeper for leave,have you seen the telegraph and sun.
Given his history...
Jezza will vote LEAVE in the privacy of the polling booth I'm convinced of it.
You shouldn't be. I've talked to him about it more than once. He means exactly what he says.
So he didn't mean what he said for 40 years?
He thinks that remaining is best, rather than handing Britain to right-wing Tory rule without EU restraint. Doesn't mean he thinks the EU is great, unlike, say, me.
1. She's after a ministerial job back and hasn't clocked that she'd just jumped the wrong way.
or
2. She's genuinely shifted position on the basis of a triviality. As a politician, whether you're Leave or Remain, you shouldn't be deciding because of how some on one side or the other have behaved. The decision is bigger than that.
Hardly impressive but then hardly surprising.
And the political class wonders why the punter in the street holds them in contempt.
Hungary, as a non-Euro member, has a strong interest in the UK remaining in at the head of the non-Euro countries (as well as secondary reasons).
Remain could have done without his endorsement.
I doubt it will make any difference. Obama's intervention didn't (or was possibly mildly negative) and this is much more low key and much less threatening.
1. She's after a ministerial job back and hasn't clocked that she'd just jumped the wrong way.
or
2. She's genuinely shifted position on the basis of a triviality. As a politician, whether you're Leave or Remain, you shouldn't be deciding because of how some on one side or the other have behaved. The decision is bigger than that.
Hardly impressive but then hardly surprising.
Perhaps she thought, if it worked for Dr Wollaston, why not for herself?
The 'Breaking Point' poster was the "breaking point".
Which PBer was it who claimed Farage was a deep sleeper agent for Remain?
Farage isn't a sleeper agent for REMAIN. Farage is in it for Farage...
Corbyn's a sleeper for leave,have you seen the telegraph and sun.
Given his history...
Jezza will vote LEAVE in the privacy of the polling booth I'm convinced of it.
You shouldn't be. I've talked to him about it more than once. He means exactly what he says.
So he didn't mean what he said for 40 years?
He thinks that remaining is best, rather than handing Britain to right-wing Tory rule without EU restraint. Doesn't mean he thinks the EU is great, unlike, say, me.
He's given up on winning the next election already?
1. She's after a ministerial job back and hasn't clocked that she'd just jumped the wrong way.
or
2. She's genuinely shifted position on the basis of a triviality. As a politician, whether you're Leave or Remain, you shouldn't be deciding because of how some on one side or the other have behaved. The decision is bigger than that.
Hardly impressive but then hardly surprising.
And the political class wonders why the punter in the street holds them in contempt.
Won't it be good when this awful campaign is finished. Death by a hundred billion cuts.
I don't know why it has lasted so long. I mean how long can we debate one issue for?
The Euro footie- who the hell thought of this format where you play a millions games to eliminate one team? It is worse than the cricket one day world cup which lasts forever.
Poor old Lee Westwood- he has suffered from his usual last round melt down.
Well done Andy Murray- he is arguably the greatest British sportsman ever, but Federer at 18-1 on Betfair for Wimbledon looks good value. He is still the best grass court player in the world, though has lost some of match competitiveness.
Why are us men so easily excited by watching other men play with balls?
It seems very odd that normally level-headed Leave campaigners such as Dan Hannan and Douglas Carswell are so rattled by Baroness Warsi (who she? you might ask), whose influence is a small thin zero.
I think the reason must be that they are not rattled by Baroness Warsi, but by the possibility that her apparent change of heart is typical of many.
Has Leave over-played its immigration card? Probably yes.
PS I'm delighted to see JackW has reported in. I hope he makes a speedy and complete recovery.
Is anyone watching the US Open? I know Sky aren't in control of the coverage, but it has been awful this week. Fox Sports have taken over as the host broadcaster and it has been a complete shower. Shots shown out of sequence and more commercial breaks than ever.
The 'Breaking Point' poster was the "breaking point".
Which PBer was it who claimed Farage was a deep sleeper agent for Remain?
Farage isn't a sleeper agent for REMAIN. Farage is in it for Farage...
Corbyn's a sleeper for leave,have you seen the telegraph and sun.
Given his history...
Jezza will vote LEAVE in the privacy of the polling booth I'm convinced of it.
You shouldn't be. I've talked to him about it more than once. He means exactly what he says.
So he didn't mean what he said for 40 years?
He thinks that remaining is best, rather than handing Britain to right-wing Tory rule without EU restraint. Doesn't mean he thinks the EU is great, unlike, say, me.
I've actually heard that kind of sentiment quite a bit from some Labour supporters. "I hate the EU and I'd vote Out if a Labour government was in, but I don't trust the Tories to negotiate an exit"
1. She's after a ministerial job back and hasn't clocked that she'd just jumped the wrong way.
or
2. She's genuinely shifted position on the basis of a triviality. As a politician, whether you're Leave or Remain, you shouldn't be deciding because of how some on one side or the other have behaved. The decision is bigger than that.
Hardly impressive but then hardly surprising.
And the political class wonders why the punter in the street holds them in contempt.
The problem is that the punter tends to believe that they all behave like that. Given the dire nature of the campaign, there's really no publicly-acceptable reason for any politician to switch sides now.
It seems very odd that normally level-headed Leave campaigners such as Dan Hannan and Douglas Carswell are so rattled by Baroness Warsi (who she? you might ask), whose influence is a small thin zero.
I think the reason must be that they are not rattled by Baroness Warsi, but by the possibility that her apparent change of heart is typical of many.
Has Leave over-played its immigration card? Probably yes.
PS I'm delighted to see JackW has reported in. I hope he makes a speedy and complete recovery.
Seems Leave camp are "divided" now, rather than in "turmoil".
The 'Breaking Point' poster was the "breaking point".
Which PBer was it who claimed Farage was a deep sleeper agent for Remain?
Farage isn't a sleeper agent for REMAIN. Farage is in it for Farage...
Corbyn's a sleeper for leave,have you seen the telegraph and sun.
Given his history...
Jezza will vote LEAVE in the privacy of the polling booth I'm convinced of it.
You shouldn't be. I've talked to him about it more than once. He means exactly what he says.
So he didn't mean what he said for 40 years?
Many things have changed in 40 years. The Tories supported being IN then. Margaret Thatcher was for Europe.
Anyway, it was before Delors at the TUC conference. That changed everything.
No, it wasn't that he supported LEAVE 40 years ago it was that he has supported LEAVE for 40 years up to 3pm last Monday, etc.
Despite what Dr Palmer says I just don't believe it and never will!
Bullshit. He spoke in favour of IN before that. It may not have been 100% in favour but on balance he supported staying IN. That is his position even today. In fact, it is his position that is an honest one.
The 'Breaking Point' poster was the "breaking point".
Which PBer was it who claimed Farage was a deep sleeper agent for Remain?
Farage isn't a sleeper agent for REMAIN. Farage is in it for Farage...
Corbyn's a sleeper for leave,have you seen the telegraph and sun.
Given his history...
Jezza will vote LEAVE in the privacy of the polling booth I'm convinced of it.
You shouldn't be. I've talked to him about it more than once. He means exactly what he says.
So he didn't mean what he said for 40 years?
He thinks that remaining is best, rather than handing Britain to right-wing Tory rule without EU restraint. Doesn't mean he thinks the EU is great, unlike, say, me.
I've actually heard that kind of sentiment quite a bit from some Labour supporters. "I hate the EU and I'd vote Out if a Labour government was in, but I don't trust the Tories to negotiate an exit"
Now that does make sense. Trouble is, if Labour were in power, we wouldn't be having a referendum at all.
Is anyone watching the US Open? I know Sky aren't in control of the coverage, but it has been awful this week. Fox Sports have taken over as the host broadcaster and it has been a complete shower. Shots shown out of sequence and more commercial breaks than ever.
I have- I feel like a trader at the minute. I am surrounded by about 4 screens. Poor old Lee Westwood. Dustin Johnson- I usually back him, but have been distracted by the Brexit shenanigans and Euro stuff. Still...whether Dustin can get across the line remains to be seen.
Won't it be good when this awful campaign is finished. Death by a hundred billion cuts.
I don't know why it has lasted so long. I mean how long can we debate one issue for?
The Euro footie- who the hell thought of this format where you play a millions games to eliminate one team? It is worse than the cricket one day world cup which lasts forever.
Poor old Lee Westwood- he has suffered from his usual last round melt down.
Well done Andy Murray- he is arguably the greatest British sportsman ever, but Federer at 18-1 on Betfair for Wimbledon looks good value. He is still the best grass court player in the world, though has lost some of match competitiveness.
Why are us men so easily excited by watching other men play with balls?
Murray? Greatest British sportsman ever? Seriously? Two majors and a top world ranking of 2? He's one of the best of his generation but that's it.
Economists have predicted nine of the last five recessions and sceptics have predicted X of the last 0 ends of the EU. The EU will cease to exist one day, but so will the UK and even the English language. REMAIN is not talking about hypothetical scenarios because it is a pro-status quo campaign seeking the comfortable and fearful no-change vote, and also because it is being run by non-amateur politicians who don't want to fight clever but rather want to fight to win.
Is anyone watching the US Open? I know Sky aren't in control of the coverage, but it has been awful this week. Fox Sports have taken over as the host broadcaster and it has been a complete shower. Shots shown out of sequence and more commercial breaks than ever.
I have- I feel like a trader at the minute. I am surrounded by about 4 screens. Poor old Lee Westwood. Dustin Johnson- I usually back him, but have been distracted by the Brexit shenanigans and Euro stuff. Still...whether Dustin can get across the line remains to be seen.
Careful, sounds like Dustin may have a one shot penalty coming for that moment earlier in the round when the ball oscillated - did he ground the putter?
Is anyone watching the US Open? I know Sky aren't in control of the coverage, but it has been awful this week. Fox Sports have taken over as the host broadcaster and it has been a complete shower. Shots shown out of sequence and more commercial breaks than ever.
I have- I feel like a trader at the minute. I am surrounded by about 4 screens. Poor old Lee Westwood. Dustin Johnson- I usually back him, but have been distracted by the Brexit shenanigans and Euro stuff. Still...whether Dustin can get across the line remains to be seen.
Careful, sounds like Dustin may have a one shot penalty coming for that moment earlier in the round when the ball oscillated - did he ground the putter?
I'm rooting for Sergio now Lee's out of it.
Come on Sergio....... I thought he grounded the putter.
The 'Breaking Point' poster was the "breaking point".
Which PBer was it who claimed Farage was a deep sleeper agent for Remain?
Farage isn't a sleeper agent for REMAIN. Farage is in it for Farage...
Corbyn's a sleeper for leave,have you seen the telegraph and sun.
Given his history...
Jezza will vote LEAVE in the privacy of the polling booth I'm convinced of it.
You shouldn't be. I've talked to him about it more than once. He means exactly what he says.
So he didn't mean what he said for 40 years?
He thinks that remaining is best, rather than handing Britain to right-wing Tory rule without EU restraint. Doesn't mean he thinks the EU is great, unlike, say, me.
I've actually heard that kind of sentiment quite a bit from some Labour supporters. "I hate the EU and I'd vote Out if a Labour government was in, but I don't trust the Tories to negotiate an exit"
Now that does make sense. Trouble is, if Labour were in power, we wouldn't be having a referendum at all.
Just seen a replay of the Cameron QT. Worst performance I have ever seen from him.The wheels have come off ,he is worn out and I cannot see him as PM much longer even if Remain wins.
Jeeez, I thought the consolation prize of remain would be a Labour lunatic government with 97.5% tax on the labour voting remaining middle class - but mass immigration loving Labour is going to be destroyed at the next election. And even if Labour change the leader there are now so many quotes to be thrown at them I can't see any way back.
Just seen a replay of the Cameron QT. Worst performance I have ever seen from him.The wheels have come off ,he is worn out and I cannot see him as PM much longer even if Remain wins.
Cameron was actually quite good.
Agreed. I think undecideds will have found him pretty convincing. And that's all that matters in last three days.
The 'Breaking Point' poster was the "breaking point".
Which PBer was it who claimed Farage was a deep sleeper agent for Remain?
Farage isn't a sleeper agent for REMAIN. Farage is in it for Farage...
Corbyn's a sleeper for leave,have you seen the telegraph and sun.
Given his history...
Jezza will vote LEAVE in the privacy of the polling booth I'm convinced of it.
You shouldn't be. I've talked to him about it more than once. He means exactly what he says.
So he didn't mean what he said for 40 years?
He thinks that remaining is best, rather than handing Britain to right-wing Tory rule without EU restraint. Doesn't mean he thinks the EU is great, unlike, say, me.
I've actually heard that kind of sentiment quite a bit from some Labour supporters. "I hate the EU and I'd vote Out if a Labour government was in, but I don't trust the Tories to negotiate an exit"
Now that does make sense. Trouble is, if Labour were in power, we wouldn't be having a referendum at all.
Well, q
Well q
God forbid the plebs have a say in their future Urrrggghhh
The 'Breaking Point' poster was the "breaking point".
Which PBer was it who claimed Farage was a deep sleeper agent for Remain?
Farage isn't a sleeper agent for REMAIN. Farage is in it for Farage...
Corbyn's a sleeper for leave,have you seen the telegraph and sun.
Given his history...
Jezza will vote LEAVE in the privacy of the polling booth I'm convinced of it.
You shouldn't be. I've talked to him about it more than once. He means exactly what he says.
So he didn't mean what he said for 40 years?
He thinks that remaining is best, rather than handing Britain to right-wing Tory rule without EU restraint. Doesn't mean he thinks the EU is great, unlike, say, me.
I've actually heard that kind of sentiment quite a bit from some Labour supporters. "I hate the EU and I'd vote Out if a Labour government was in, but I don't trust the Tories to negotiate an exit"
But they also need to know, while the EU may hold back a Conservative government, it will also hold back a labour government. The way the single market operates and the obsession (rightly so) of the European Commission to open up competition in areas which have had traditional monopolies means things like renationalisation of the railways almost impossible. It wont even be as simple as taking into public ownership as franchises are renewed. Every tender will have to be open to europe wide competition, and any government backed tender has to be presented as an autonomous self funding entity.
There will be no role back of the economic model to a pre thatcher era while remaining in the EU.
Is anyone watching the US Open? I know Sky aren't in control of the coverage, but it has been awful this week. Fox Sports have taken over as the host broadcaster and it has been a complete shower. Shots shown out of sequence and more commercial breaks than ever.
I have- I feel like a trader at the minute. I am surrounded by about 4 screens. Poor old Lee Westwood. Dustin Johnson- I usually back him, but have been distracted by the Brexit shenanigans and Euro stuff. Still...whether Dustin can get across the line remains to be seen.
Careful, sounds like Dustin may have a one shot penalty coming for that moment earlier in the round when the ball oscillated - did he ground the putter?
I'm rooting for Sergio now Lee's out of it.
I'm off to bed now, and as usual will listen to the Radio 5 last day coverage which is quite superb, and no ads.
Now that does make sense. Trouble is, if Labour were in power, we wouldn't be having a referendum at all.
Well, quite. And if you believe the warnings that Cameron and Osborne have been issuing (and to some extent I do), isn't it totally irresponsible that they've given a roughly 50% shot at what they see as a catastrophe for Britain? It's fair enough to have a referendum if you can see that there are two reasonsable choices and it's up to the electorate to pick the one they want, but if they really do think that one option is a disaster, should it be dangled in front of the electorate?
I don't think that they really thought it'd be hard to win, so they just offered it as an election sweetener for UKIP-leaning voters.
Jeeez, I thought the consolation prize of remain would be a Labour lunatic government with 97.5% tax on the labour voting remaining middle class - but mass immigration loving Labour is going to be destroyed at the next election. And even if Labour change the leader there are now so many quotes to be thrown at them I can't see any way back.
The Tories could be down even more to UKIP though I would agree I can't see Labour winning in 2020
That's nice of him. Genuinely. Although isn't he a dodgy sort?
I must admit I'm at something of a crossroads. Oh, I'm still going to vote leave, it would hypocritical not to as the fundamental issue is I don't like the eu as it exists and as it will develop, and I simply don't believe it is capable of real change for one because there will never, never be the will to do so. But on top of the economic shocks I already thought would come, I'm even more pessimistic about our immediate prospects. Eu leaders will face pressure to not give us an inch, the government will be a fractured incompetent mess no matter what, and bile levels in society and PB will exceed sindyref levels. Remain winning woukd not even improve matters either. The whole political scene, it Just depresses me at this moment. It's going to be a rough few years.
Just seen a replay of the Cameron QT. Worst performance I have ever seen from him.The wheels have come off ,he is worn out and I cannot see him as PM much longer even if Remain wins.
Cameron was actually quite good.
Totally floundered on immigration and plain shifty on Turkey which everyone in the audience saw .We are being conned big time on the deal with Turkey as we will find out soon after Thursday.
Now that does make sense. Trouble is, if Labour were in power, we wouldn't be having a referendum at all.
Well, quite. And if you believe the warnings that Cameron and Osborne have been issuing (and to some extent I do), isn't it totally irresponsible that they've given a roughly 50% shot at what they see as a catastrophe for Britain? It's fair enough to have a referendum if you can see that there are two reasonsable choices and it's up to the electorate to pick the one they want, but if they really do think that one option is a disaster, should it be dangled in front of the electorate?
I don't think that they really thought it'd be hard to win, so they just offered it as an election sweetener for UKIP-leaning voters.
I think you are right Nick, that they really had no idea it would be this hard. I do wonder why, because I could have told them that several years ago (as no doubt could most PBers).
The usual argument is they threw it into the mix assuming there would be another Lib-Con coalition and therefore no chance of a referendum.
The referendum has been really awful for English politics, hasn't it? Imagine if there were one each time a new EU treaty were to be ratified, as desired by some in both REMAIN and LEAVE.
Just seen a replay of the Cameron QT. Worst performance I have ever seen from him.The wheels have come off ,he is worn out and I cannot see him as PM much longer even if Remain wins.
Cameron was actually quite good.
Totally floundered on immigration and plain shifty on Turkey which everyone in the audience saw .We are being conned big time on the deal with Turkey as we will find out soon after Thursday.
Visa free access to the EU from Turkey is not far away, visitors within the next thirty days and workers within the next two years. It's only Turkey's reluctance to reform some of its own laws that is holding this back.
The posts of so many leavers this evening have been truly unpleasant - first the mauling of deceased MP Jo Cox because she took her children on the Thames the other day - that was so nasty it was hard to believe - and even now the bitterness about Baroness Warsi - who cares? She had a view and has changed her mind - get over it. The site at times could easily be taken for some extremist right-wing blog at times. win or lose the Tory party are going to be in deep doo doo next week if the people on here are anything like representative of the membership.
Comments
Now was he lying to us then or now?
Eited extra bit: Sorry My comment was not made in response to Marke09, but to another post which seems to have gone.
When I invited Sayeeda Warsi to join the Leave campaign, she declined. Fair enough, obviously. But how is this a "defection"?
Sorry, did you want to go back to the pre industrial age?
And won't be forgotten.
Sayeeda WarsiVerified account
@SayeedaWarsi
For those of us committed to @vote_leave this unholy alliance between small minded little islanders & optimistic hello worlders is a strain
Anyway, it was before Delors at the TUC conference. That changed everything.
1. She's after a ministerial job back and hasn't clocked that she'd just jumped the wrong way.
or
2. She's genuinely shifted position on the basis of a triviality. As a politician, whether you're Leave or Remain, you shouldn't be deciding because of how some on one side or the other have behaved. The decision is bigger than that.
Hardly impressive but then hardly surprising.
We all have to get on together after the Referendum but the tone of the campaign has made that very difficult.
Come off it. He'll be ticking the Leave box as sure as i'm sitting here.
Brexit Camp Divided as Senior Tory Walks Out
Despite what Dr Palmer says I just don't believe it and never will!
I wonder if they'll start attacking each other in their editorials next.
I don't know why it has lasted so long. I mean how long can we debate one issue for?
The Euro footie- who the hell thought of this format where you play a millions games to eliminate one team? It is worse than the cricket one day world cup which lasts forever.
Poor old Lee Westwood- he has suffered from his usual last round melt down.
Well done Andy Murray- he is arguably the greatest British sportsman ever, but Federer at 18-1 on Betfair for Wimbledon looks good value. He is still the best grass court player in the world, though has lost some of match competitiveness.
Why are us men so easily excited by watching other men play with balls?
It seems very odd that normally level-headed Leave campaigners such as Dan Hannan and Douglas Carswell are so rattled by Baroness Warsi (who she? you might ask), whose influence is a small thin zero.
I think the reason must be that they are not rattled by Baroness Warsi, but by the possibility that her apparent change of heart is typical of many.
Has Leave over-played its immigration card? Probably yes.
PS I'm delighted to see JackW has reported in. I hope he makes a speedy and complete recovery.
I think that he is genuine in coming out for Remain.
Poor old Lee Westwood. Dustin Johnson- I usually back him, but have been distracted by the Brexit shenanigans and Euro stuff. Still...whether Dustin can get across the line remains to be seen.
REMAIN is not talking about hypothetical scenarios because it is a pro-status quo campaign seeking the comfortable and fearful no-change vote, and also because it is being run by non-amateur politicians who don't want to fight clever but rather want to fight to win.
I'm rooting for Sergio now Lee's out of it.
I thought he grounded the putter.
God forbid the plebs have a say in their future Urrrggghhh
There will be no role back of the economic model to a pre thatcher era while remaining in the EU.
Come on Sergio... a last battle cry.
I don't think that they really thought it'd be hard to win, so they just offered it as an election sweetener for UKIP-leaning voters.
Leave or sitting on the fence ?
I must admit I'm at something of a crossroads. Oh, I'm still going to vote leave, it would hypocritical not to as the fundamental issue is I don't like the eu as it exists and as it will develop, and I simply don't believe it is capable of real change for one because there will never, never be the will to do so. But on top of the economic shocks I already thought would come, I'm even more pessimistic about our immediate prospects. Eu leaders will face pressure to not give us an inch, the government will be a fractured incompetent mess no matter what, and bile levels in society and PB will exceed sindyref levels. Remain winning woukd not even improve matters either. The whole political scene, it Just depresses me at this moment. It's going to be a rough few years.
Good night.
https://twitter.com/SuzanneEvans1/status/744660332510068736
The usual argument is they threw it into the mix assuming there would be another Lib-Con coalition and therefore no chance of a referendum.
She had a view and has changed her mind - get over it. The site at times could easily be taken for some extremist right-wing blog at times. win or lose the Tory party are going to be in deep doo doo next week if the people on here are anything like representative of the membership.