politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Britain’s original sins?
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It is interesting to compare the understanding being afforded to this man at this time compared to the two who knifed Lee Rigby.
It reminds me of the treatment of the killer of Yitzhak Rabin who was killed by a right wing Jewish extremist. A terrible tragedy but it was commented on at the time that the treatment of his assailant who was immediately sent for psychiatric evaluation was very different to that which a Palestinian might have expected had he even survived to face trial.
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As do I. There isn't a very good solution for people who are voting Leave because they care about immigration, should Leave fail.PrinceofTaranto said:
There are alot of issues with that as we well know.Tories will be told that voting UKIP will let Corbyn in and he will be worse; the electoral system stuffs UKIP; Labour voters will probably revert to type come any GE. Also given that there is no way of controlling EU immigration the scope for reduction is pretty limited . I see huge structural problems ahead.kle4 said:
They will need to to vote UKIP or ensure Cameron's replacement is really, no fooling serious about immigration, to mitigate the situation as much as they can,PrinceofTaranto said:If Remain wins now,the question I have is where the immigration issue then goes.Are people who oppose the current levels of immigration just going to roll over and accept they have lost
and we are going to live in a country of 75 to 80 million in the next 30 years?0 -
And they will be held to account at a General Election for whatever they agree. Isn't democracy great? Who could oppose that?Scott_P said:
And that would be a bigger question, given many of the prominent Leavers want free movement.logical_song said:You could also ask:
"If Leave wins now,the question I have is where the immigration issue then goes." It's not clear.0 -
Since you dismiss any and every Leaver as non-credible... No.tyson said:
You can try and make this stick...if you can. Then you look at the likes of Jo Cox, Obama, the Pope, Lagarde, Alistair Darling, Cameron, Gordon Brown, Sam Cam, Carney, the Miliband brothers, Justine Greening and about 480 other MP's, Nobel prize scientists, the universities, 80% plus of economists, Stephen Hawking, the IMF, Merkel....and so the list goes onchestnut said:
Using that logic, is a vote for Remain is a vote for the IRA, anti-semites and ISIS apologists?Roger said:The grit in the ointment is the final paragraph of the article written by Marina Hyde and posted earlier by Carlotta. It explains why, despite all the arguments put forward by cyclefree and others there really is only one choice
"There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?"
Can you please find me one, just once credible voice behind leave....not Nadine Dorries, or Priti Patel, or Gove or Johnson, or Farage, of IDS, to Howard, or Murdoch, or Dacre, or Lawson, or Michael Howard, or Guthrie or John Mann...is there a single credible, mainstream voice behind leave that could make someone like me listen?0 -
Good points, but for 1) the Single European Act dates from 1986.JessieShamus said:I'd like to make 2 points
1) The EU is 19 yrs old and not 46 yrs.
2) REMAIN is trying to capitalise on the recent murder. This will cower LEAVE but unlikely to change minds. LEAVE are fed up with being told what they can say.
and 3... 3 points!
3) LEAVE doesnt need a manifesto, or budget. LEAVE is just a decision to LEAVE the EU. LEAVE comprises Labour, Conservative, UKIP and other. They have no obligation to form a common policy.0 -
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.KentRising said:The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
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"It must be considered that there is nothing more difficult to carry out nor more doubtful of success nor more dangerous to handle than to initiate a new order of things; for the reformer has enemies in all those who profit by the old order, and only lukewarm defenders in all those who would profit by the new order; this lukewarmness arising partly from the incredulity of mankind who does not truly believe in anything new until they actually have experience of ittyson said:
You can try and make this stick...if you can. Then you look at the likes of Jo Cox, Obama, the Pope, Lagarde, Alistair Darling, Cameron, Gordon Brown, Sam Cam, Carney, the Miliband brothers, Justine Greening and about 480 other MP's, Nobel prize scientists, the universities, 80% plus of economists, Stephen Hawking, the IMF, Merkel....and so the list goes onchestnut said:
Using that logic, is a vote for Remain is a vote for the IRA, anti-semites and ISIS apologists?Roger said:The grit in the ointment is the final paragraph of the article written by Marina Hyde and posted earlier by Carlotta. It explains why, despite all the arguments put forward by cyclefree and others there really is only one choice
"There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?"
Can you please find me one, just once credible voice behind leave....not Nadine Dorries, or Priti Patel, or Gove or Johnson, or Farage, of IDS, to Howard, or Murdoch, or Dacre, or Lawson, or Michael Howard, or Guthrie or John Mann...is there a single credible, mainstream voice behind leave that could make someone like me listen?
True then. True now. No one is trying to persuade you tyson. Your mind is made up. Good for you. Happy voting!0 -
And 4 ...4 Points!JessieShamus said:I'd like to make 2 points
1) The EU is 19 yrs old and not 46 yrs.
2) REMAIN is trying to capitalise on the recent murder. This will cower LEAVE but unlikely to change minds. LEAVE are fed up with being told what they can say.
and 3... 3 points!
3) LEAVE doesnt need a manifesto, or budget. LEAVE is just a decision to LEAVE the EU. LEAVE comprises Labour, Conservative, UKIP and other. They have no obligation to form a common policy.
I have bones broken in my face from skinhead attacks in the 70s. Skinheads disappeared when M.Thatcher brought in the Nationality Act.
The murder by someone against the EU (or immigration) was not unpredicted. Some have been saying for years that mass immigration will lead to violence, whether in the form of a Breivik or Lee Rigby type attack. It has been predicted for years, but was written off as racist. Ironic really that someone who suffered racist attacks gets called racist by white people.
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Eesland! Eesland! Eesland!Sunil_Prasannan said:Ice-er-land, Ice-er-land, Ice-er-land
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A few anecdotes from today
Winchester: two Remain posters, one Leave poster. A couple of Quakers campaigning on the high street claiming William Penn wanted a European Parliament. Not much business. Saw a couple of rather introverted BSE campaigners in their 40s in a side-street not doing much at all, other than being glued to their iPhones. They then went to the pub, ordered a drink, and then resumed reading their iPhones. Otherwise, nothing on the referendum going on noticeably at all.
I was there with my folks. Aged 70/75. They, their friends, and everyone they know in their social circle is voting Leave. They live in rural North-West Hampshire.
Facebook: absolutely filled to brim with friends gunning full-on for Remain. No sign of exploitation the murder at all. But two or three usually rational, and level-headed people, becoming highly emotional about Remain. All work in London in professional services/finance.0 -
He is the archetypal saloon bar boor. A very typical type of Englishman. There is no other country on earth he could come from. Great for a pint, painful for two.Alanbrooke said:
Articles focussing on personalities just show how devoid of arguments remain have becomeRodCrosby said:
Definitely worth it, if only to give one in the eye to some privileged, snooty cow who doesn't encounter people like Farage (or his millions of voters) at her dinner parties...Roger said:The grit in the ointment is the final paragraph of the article written by Marina Hyde and posted earlier by Carlotta. It explains why, despite all the arguments put forward by cyclefree and others there really is only one choice
"There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?"
Farage isn't the bogeyman the left would like him to be boorish perhaps but he's anything but the new fuehrer
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EU was created in 1997.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Good points, but for 1) the Single European Act dates from 1986.
I remember it well. I had a foreign wife and was working in Europe. Not much changed except the queue to show my passport got longer.
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Did they say something similar to "like the Roman I seem to see the Tiber foaming with much blood"JessieShamus said:
And 4 ...4 Points!JessieShamus said:I'd like to make 2 points
1) The EU is 19 yrs old and not 46 yrs.
2) REMAIN is trying to capitalise on the recent murder. This will cower LEAVE but unlikely to change minds. LEAVE are fed up with being told what they can say.
and 3... 3 points!
3) LEAVE doesnt need a manifesto, or budget. LEAVE is just a decision to LEAVE the EU. LEAVE comprises Labour, Conservative, UKIP and other. They have no obligation to form a common policy.
I have bones broken in my face from skinhead attacks in the 70s. Skinheads disappeared when M.Thatcher brought in the Nationality Act.
The murder by someone against the EU (or immigration) was not unpredicted. Some have been saying for years that mass immigration will lead to violence, whether in the form of a Breivik or Lee Rigby type attack. It has been predicted for years, but was written off as racist. Ironic really that someone who suffered racist attacks gets called racist by white people.0 -
If PM Boris has signed up to Free Movement, how exactly can the voters reverse that at a GE?Philip_Thompson said:And they will be held to account at a General Election for whatever they agree. Isn't democracy great? Who could oppose that?
Take your time...0 -
It would be 2005 in reverse, then after Iraq Labour voters in marginals held their noses and voted Labour but in safe seats they voted LD thus Labour won a majority of over 60 on just 35% of the vote. Tory Leavers could do the same with UKIPPrinceofTaranto said:
There are alot of issues with that as we well know.Tories will be told that voting UKIP will let Corbyn in and he will be worse; the electoral system stuffs UKIP; Labour voters will probably revert to type come any GE. Also given that there is no way of controlling EU immigration the scope for reduction is pretty limited . I see huge structural problems ahead.kle4 said:
They will need to to vote UKIP or ensure Cameron's replacement is really, no fooling serious about immigration, to mitigate the situation as much as they can,PrinceofTaranto said:If Remain wins now,the question I have is where the immigration issue then goes.Are people who oppose the current levels of immigration just going to roll over and accept they have lost
and we are going to live in a country of 75 to 80 million in the next 30 years?0 -
Give or take a few months the EU is actually 23 years old.JessieShamus said:I'd like to make 2 points
1) The EU is 19 yrs old and not 46 yrs.
2) REMAIN is trying to capitalise on the recent murder. This will cower LEAVE but unlikely to change minds. LEAVE are fed up with being told what they can say.
and 3... 3 points!
3) LEAVE doesnt need a manifesto, or budget. LEAVE is just a decision to LEAVE the EU. LEAVE comprises Labour, Conservative, UKIP and other. They have no obligation to form a common policy.
It came into existence with the signing of the Treaty on European Union (or Maastricht Treaty) which entered into force on 1st November 19930 -
Yep - but it's worth remembering this works both ways. Hopefully, everyone will be more circumspect in future when these dreadful things happen.Roger said:It is interesting to compare the understanding being afforded to this man at this time compared to the two who knifed Lee Rigby.
It reminds me of the treatment of the killer of Yitzhak Rabin who was killed by a right wing Jewish extremist. A terrible tragedy but it was commented on at the time that the treatment of his assailant who was immediately sent for psychiatric evaluation was very different to that which a Palestinian might have expected had he even survived to face trial.
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No, there isn't. The problem is not one of credibility but wavelength.tyson said:
You can try and make this stick...if you can. Then you look at the likes of Jo Cox, Obama, the Pope, Lagarde, Alistair Darling, Cameron, Gordon Brown, Sam Cam, Carney, the Miliband brothers, Justine Greening and about 480 other MP's, Nobel prize scientists, the universities, 80% plus of economists, Stephen Hawking, the IMF, Merkel....and so the list goes onchestnut said:
Using that logic, is a vote for Remain is a vote for the IRA, anti-semites and ISIS apologists?Roger said:The grit in the ointment is the final paragraph of the article written by Marina Hyde and posted earlier by Carlotta. It explains why, despite all the arguments put forward by cyclefree and others there really is only one choice
"There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?"
Can you please find me one, just once credible voice behind leave....not Nadine Dorries, or Priti Patel, or Gove or Johnson, or Farage, of IDS, to Howard, or Murdoch, or Dacre, or Lawson, or Michael Howard, or Guthrie or John Mann...is there a single credible, mainstream voice behind leave that could make someone like me listen?0 -
There are still 5 days to go.KentRising said:The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
Deep breath..
This isn't over yet. We have to have confidence that the British people will make the right decision for the right reason.
Keep your chin up.0 -
How weird the "Bovine spongiform encephalopathy" campaigners were they for or against BSE ?Casino_Royale said:A few anecdotes from today
Winchester: two Remain posters, one Leave poster. A couple of Quakers campaigning on the high street claiming William Penn wanted a European Parliament. Not much business. Saw a couple of rather introverted BSE campaigners in their 40s in a side-street not doing much at all, other than being glued to their iPhones. They then went to the pub, ordered a drink, and then resumed reading their iPhones. Otherwise, nothing on the referendum going on noticeably at all.
I was there with my folks. Aged 70/75. They, their friends, and everyone they know in their social circle is voting Leave. They live in rural North-West Hampshire.
Facebook: absolutely filled to brim with friends gunning full-on for Remain. No sign of exploitation the murder at all. But two or three usually rational, and level-headed people, becoming highly emotional about Remain. All work in London in professional services/finance.0 -
For SeanT. To listen to while you watch the lights go down in Taormina
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqagDHyOiBI0 -
lol!NoEasyDay said:
How weird the "Bovine spongiform encephalopathy" campaigners were they for or against BSE ?Casino_Royale said:A few anecdotes from today
Winchester: two Remain posters, one Leave poster. A couple of Quakers campaigning on the high street claiming William Penn wanted a European Parliament. Not much business. Saw a couple of rather introverted BSE campaigners in their 40s in a side-street not doing much at all, other than being glued to their iPhones. They then went to the pub, ordered a drink, and then resumed reading their iPhones. Otherwise, nothing on the referendum going on noticeably at all.
I was there with my folks. Aged 70/75. They, their friends, and everyone they know in their social circle is voting Leave. They live in rural North-West Hampshire.
Facebook: absolutely filled to brim with friends gunning full-on for Remain. No sign of exploitation the murder at all. But two or three usually rational, and level-headed people, becoming highly emotional about Remain. All work in London in professional services/finance.0 -
He would have no authority to do so.Scott_P said:
If PM Boris has signed up to Free Movement, how exactly can the voters reverse that at a GE?Philip_Thompson said:And they will be held to account at a General Election for whatever they agree. Isn't democracy great? Who could oppose that?
Take your time...
Ignoring the people seems common these days, like Brown signing the Lisbon Treaty.0 -
Unfortunately I doubt that will ever happen. Social media is both a gift and a curse.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - but it's worth remembering this works both ways. Hopefully, everyone will be more circumspect in future when these dreadful things happen.Roger said:It is interesting to compare the understanding being afforded to this man at this time compared to the two who knifed Lee Rigby.
It reminds me of the treatment of the killer of Yitzhak Rabin who was killed by a right wing Jewish extremist. A terrible tragedy but it was commented on at the time that the treatment of his assailant who was immediately sent for psychiatric evaluation was very different to that which a Palestinian might have expected had he even survived to face trial.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes."0 -
Sure he would. It's an executive power.JessieShamus said:He would have no authority to do so.
Ignoring the people seems common these days, like Brown signing the Lisbon Treaty.
Brexiteers keep telling us there is no Leave manifesto (even though they published one). The Government will interpret the vote as they see fit, and most of them want Free Movement0 -
I had all my fingers broken by some BNP heavies back in 1984.JessieShamus said:
And 4 ...4 Points!JessieShamus said:I'd like to make 2 points
1) The EU is 19 yrs old and not 46 yrs.
2) REMAIN is trying to capitalise on the recent murder. This will cower LEAVE but unlikely to change minds. LEAVE are fed up with being told what they can say.
and 3... 3 points!
3) LEAVE doesnt need a manifesto, or budget. LEAVE is just a decision to LEAVE the EU. LEAVE comprises Labour, Conservative, UKIP and other. They have no obligation to form a common policy.
I have bones broken in my face from skinhead attacks in the 70s. Skinheads disappeared when M.Thatcher brought in the Nationality Act.0 -
These lists of names do make me laughtyson said:
You can try and make this stick...if you can. Then you look at the likes of Jo Cox, Obama, the Pope, Lagarde, Alistair Darling, Cameron, Gordon Brown, Sam Cam, Carney, the Miliband brothers, Justine Greening and about 480 other MP's, Nobel prize scientists, the universities, 80% plus of economists, Stephen Hawking, the IMF, Merkel....and so the list goes onchestnut said:
Using that logic, is a vote for Remain is a vote for the IRA, anti-semites and ISIS apologists?Roger said:The grit in the ointment is the final paragraph of the article written by Marina Hyde and posted earlier by Carlotta. It explains why, despite all the arguments put forward by cyclefree and others there really is only one choice
"There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?"
Can you please find me one, just once credible voice behind leave....not Nadine Dorries, or Priti Patel, or Gove or Johnson, or Farage, of IDS, to Howard, or Murdoch, or Dacre, or Lawson, or Michael Howard, or Guthrie or John Mann...is there a single credible, mainstream voice behind leave that could make someone like me listen?
- the people who bust the global financial system
- the people who bust the Eurozone
- the people who bust Britain taking it into the ERM
- the people who bust the Schengen consensus with the migrant crisis
- the people who bombed Baghdad
- the people who buggered the Labour Party
- the people who bombed Brighton and Bishopsgate
- the people who expected oil to be $110 a barrel
Billionaire manufacturers like Bamford and Dyson trump pen-pushing economic theorists with bad track records every day.
Digby Jones and John Longworth are Leave.
Minford, Bootle, Congdon, Lilico - some of the UK's most pre-eminent economists are for Leave.
Even the Dalai Lama thinks migration has gone too far;
http://qz.com/696703/the-dalai-lama-thinks-there-are-now-too-many-refugees-in-europe/
But most importantly of all, so are a vast number of ordinary folk. Somewhere between twenty and twenty five million people.
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Public service announcement:
I will be bringing back the trollface emoji tomorrow with the reinstatement of the campaigns.
Brace yourselves.0 -
That was one person and what he predicted seems to be coming to fruition.NoEasyDay said:
Did they say something similar to "like the Roman I seem to see the Tiber foaming with much blood"
Clever man Enoch. He saw the danger of Nazi Germany and knew there would be war. He resigned his position as Professor and travelled to England to be ready. He enlisted in the Army as a private, and ended a half colonel.
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To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.NoEasyDay said:
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.KentRising said:The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
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He ended as a brigadier...is that a half colonel ?JessieShamus said:
That was one person and what he predicted seems to be coming to fruition.NoEasyDay said:
Did they say something similar to "like the Roman I seem to see the Tiber foaming with much blood"
Clever man Enoch. He saw the danger of Nazi Germany and knew there would be war. He resigned his position as Professor and travelled to England to be ready. He enlisted in the Army as a private, and ended a half colonel.0 -
It's the light that is breathtaking in Italy. Roger told me that about the light he remembered over the Ponte Vecchio in Florence, reminiscing about the past.SeanT said:
No, just Calabria. Which is scruffy, ugly, gangstery and poor, yet studded with occasional sublime gems. Like the hotel I'm in. I've stayed in a few nice hotels, in my time, as I may have mentioned, but the Praia Art Resort is up there with the best of them. World class.tyson said:
I'll be cliched....but the truth is stranger than fiction. My wife still cannot believe my family history which just seems utterly preposterous.SeanT said:As a thriller writer, if I presented Mair to my editor as a plot device, she'd laugh in my face and tell me stop being so cliched, far fetched and unbelievable. She'd also say the plot twist was far too neat and convenient
Are you venturing into Tuscany on your Italian odyssey?
The food is indescribably good. We have our own private slice of Ionian Sea. Here I am right now, writing this comment
https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/744219064751521794
I have had the most spectacular lunch today overlooking Florence and the Apennines.. Italy is just too beautiful. Italians live for food. They dream about food. And their food is based on simplicity and local ingredients. It is not fussy. I shared an 8 Euro bottle of house white today...I feel I have to start economising because of Brexit (as you will too as you fight negative equity and rising interest rates on your Primrose Hill Residence)...it was just fine. I wouldn't have noticed the difference with my usual choice.
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But right from the start Cameron said it was up to the Brexiteers to set out what would happen after a Leave vote. Are you saying that even though they have done exactly that Cameron would ignore their 'manifesto' and the will of the people in the event of a Leave vote?Scott_P said:
Sure he would. It's an executive power.JessieShamus said:He would have no authority to do so.
Ignoring the people seems common these days, like Brown signing the Lisbon Treaty.
Brexiteers keep telling us there is no Leave manifesto (even though they published one). The Government will interpret the vote as they see fit, and most of them want Free Movement0 -
Well lets come back on 24th and see how they finally voted !foxinsoxuk said:
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.NoEasyDay said:
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.KentRising said:The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
I bet its still leave.0 -
Dr. Foxinsox, the murder doesn't alter the arguments on economics, migration, sovereignty or integration. I'm baffled why anyone on either side would alter their view.
Those who want to vote Leave are not drunk, they've just reached a different conclusion to you. It's entirely possible for reasonable men to reach differing conclusions when presented with the same evidence. Indeed, that's the basis of democracy.0 -
Yeah, still some hanging around, but probably no more new blood to replace those getting jobs and mellowing out. I think Phill Jupitus used to be a skinhead.Richard_Tyndall said:I had all my fingers broken by some BNP heavies back in 1984.
Anyways, in the 70s there seemed to be skinheads on every high street. I had to plan my route to avoid them.
After nationality act, everything changed. I would say that 1985-97 was a Goldern Era for race relations.0 -
It is not a good thing if this changes any votes.foxinsoxuk said:
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.NoEasyDay said:
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.KentRising said:The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
Not at all.0 -
Sadly true. Some of the more 'committed' Leave posters on here were going out of their way to slander the eye witnesses, claiming they couldn't possible have been in the position to have heard what they said they heard, so must be making it up. We even had the ludicrous assertion that no such witnesses even existed at all, and they were merely the invention of Laurie Penny.Scott_P said:@DAaronovitch: Yesterday several biggie social media Brexiteers were retweeting fatuous & premature suggestions that Jo Cox’s killer hadn’t shouted… (1)
@DAaronovitch: ….nationalist slogans. The man who claimed it had ‘recanted’ they said. Now it’s become clear what happened THEY might like to recant .
Maybe posters who said the killing of a politician was "not about politics" might also review their position?0 -
Genuine question to Remainers and indeed some Leavers on the site who want free movement.Do you actually care if this country's population grows to 80 million or more in your lifetime ? I just cannot understand why anyone would want that but it seems to me you aren't worried about it.Philip_Thompson said:
And they will be held to account at a General Election for whatever they agree. Isn't democracy great? Who could oppose that?Scott_P said:
And that would be a bigger question, given many of the prominent Leavers want free movement.logical_song said:You could also ask:
"If Leave wins now,the question I have is where the immigration issue then goes." It's not clear.0 -
Anyway, I'm off. Will see how the polls are tomorrow morning.0
-
I said BorisTudorRose said:But right from the start Cameron said it was up to the Brexiteers to set out what would happen after a Leave vote. Are you saying that even though they have done exactly that Cameron would ignore their 'manifesto' and the will of the people in the event of a Leave vote?
0 -
Go on betfair and you can double your stake, within a week. In the last days I have transferred all my POTUS bets onto Brexit- a hefty wedge. I'm going to leave it there, hope to god I lose the money, and then close up my account.NoEasyDay said:
Well lets come back on 24th and see how they finally voted !foxinsoxuk said:
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.NoEasyDay said:
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.KentRising said:The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
I bet its still leave.
0 -
@britainelects: EU referendum poll:
Remain: 44% (-)
Leave: 44% (+2)
(via Opinium, online / 14 - 17 Jun)0 -
-
Bugger. Sorry. Still, a great & intelligent man with foresight. We should really pay attention to our greats.NoEasyDay said:He ended as a brigadier...is that a half colonel ?
0 -
My recollection is that life was a little bit more violent back in the day. Everything from the village bobby giving you a clout round the ear, corporal punishment at school, fisticuffs behind the bike sheds and so on. I had so many, I can't actually say how many fights I had...lots.JessieShamus said:
Yeah, still some hanging around, but probably no more new blood to replace those getting jobs and mellowing out. I think Phill Jupitus used to be a skinhead.Richard_Tyndall said:I had all my fingers broken by some BNP heavies back in 1984.
Anyways, in the 70s there seemed to be skinheads on every high street. I had to plan my route to avoid them.
After nationality act, everything changed. I would say that 1985-97 was a Goldern Era for race relations.
I guess it was one of the ways we amused ourselves before PC games came along.0 -
Well, I'm glad that's cleared things up.Scott_P said:@britainelects: EU referendum poll:
Remain: 44% (-)
Leave: 44% (+2)
(via Opinium, online / 14 - 17 Jun)0 -
Opinium POLL ON EU SHOWS 44% REMAIN, 44% LEAVE: OPINIUM POLL0
-
Public sector workers reluctant to say Leave ?foxinsoxuk said:
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.NoEasyDay said:
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.KentRising said:The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
I'm amazed they ever admitted to it to start with.0 -
Opinium Remain 44% (nc) Leave 44% (+2). Fieldwork almost all of it conducted before the murder of Jo Cox0
-
How do I bet on two of foxinsox work colleagues on Betfair ? Wots their names ?tyson said:
Go on betfair and you can double your stake, within a week. In the last days I have transferred all my POTUS bets onto Brexit- a hefty wedge. I'm going to leave it there, hope to god I lose the money, and then close up my account.NoEasyDay said:
Well lets come back on 24th and see how they finally voted !foxinsoxuk said:
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.NoEasyDay said:
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.KentRising said:The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
I bet its still leave.0 -
Hungary equalise against Iceland with just 2 minutes left 1-10
-
Concluded yesterday so partly after the shooting, suggests still too close to call, undecideds remain crucialScott_P said:@britainelects: EU referendum poll:
Remain: 44% (-)
Leave: 44% (+2)
(via Opinium, online / 14 - 17 Jun)0 -
Good for remain IMOTheScreamingEagles said:Opinium Remain 44% (nc) Leave: 44% (+2). Fieldwork almost all of it conducted before the murder of Jo Cox
0 -
I have no idea what the maximum number of people the country could sustain is, but it's bound to grow a lot no matter what happens, so I don't see there's any point worrying too much. I recognise, however, that the mood of the country is that it is too much.PrinceofTaranto said:
Genuine question to Remainers and indeed some Leavers on the site who want free movement.Do you actually care if this country's population grows to 80 million or more in your lifetime ? I just cannot understand why anyone would want that but it seems to me you aren't worried about it.Philip_Thompson said:
And they will be held to account at a General Election for whatever they agree. Isn't democracy great? Who could oppose that?Scott_P said:
And that would be a bigger question, given many of the prominent Leavers want free movement.logical_song said:You could also ask:
"If Leave wins now,the question I have is where the immigration issue then goes." It's not clear.
As expected, everything entirely in line with previously, MOE change only. Any impact from the last few days will not be found in polling, if it happens at all, so won't be able to be identified.Scott_P said:@britainelects: EU referendum poll:
Remain: 44% (-)
Leave: 44% (+2)
(via Opinium, online / 14 - 17 Jun)0 -
People decide how they vote with a mixture of rational and irrational motives. That's democracy.Casino_Royale said:
It is not a good thing if this changes any votes.foxinsoxuk said:
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.NoEasyDay said:
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.KentRising said:The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
Not at all.
NickP has remarked in the past how many voters, even a majority, make their decision because of the general feel of a party. I think that is true here too.0 -
This is up to the jury to decide.Stark_Dawning said:
Sadly true. Some of the more 'committed' Leave posters on here were going out of their way to slander the eye witnesses, claiming they couldn't possible have been in the position to have heard what they said they heard, so must be making it up. We even had the ludicrous assertion that no such witnesses even existed at all, and they were merely the invention of Laurie Penny.Scott_P said:@DAaronovitch: Yesterday several biggie social media Brexiteers were retweeting fatuous & premature suggestions that Jo Cox’s killer hadn’t shouted… (1)
@DAaronovitch: ….nationalist slogans. The man who claimed it had ‘recanted’ they said. Now it’s become clear what happened THEY might like to recant .
Maybe posters who said the killing of a politician was "not about politics" might also review their position?0 -
Is that Opinium's final say on the matter? :OTheScreamingEagles said:Opinium Remain 44% (nc) Leave: 44% (+2). Fieldwork almost all of it conducted before the murder of Jo Cox
0 -
And LEAVE equalise againt REMAIN in Opinium 44-440
-
Why? The only change is LEAVE +2?bigjohnowls said:
Good for remain IMOTheScreamingEagles said:Opinium Remain 44% (nc) Leave: 44% (+2). Fieldwork almost all of it conducted before the murder of Jo Cox
0 -
I don't think so. I completed an opinium last night.GIN1138 said:
Is that Opinium's final say on the matter? :OTheScreamingEagles said:Opinium Remain 44% (nc) Leave: 44% (+2). Fieldwork almost all of it conducted before the murder of Jo Cox
Now leave me alone, as I'm writing the ComRes thread.0 -
TRUMP - Live in Vegas!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zh33WbZULE0 -
Yes, I think that's true.foxinsoxuk said:
People decide how they vote with a mixture of rational and irrational motives. That's democracy.Casino_Royale said:
It is not a good thing if this changes any votes.foxinsoxuk said:
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.NoEasyDay said:
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.KentRising said:The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
Not at all.
NickP has remarked in the past how many voters, even a majority, make their decision because of the general feel of a party. I think that is true here too.
Less charitably, people vote for stupid reasons all the time, all of us at one time or another, and that's democracy for you.0 -
He is 1.1 for the nomination btw.RodCrosby said:TRUMP - Live in Vegas!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zh33WbZULE0 -
Presumably as Leave were recording bigger swings previously, and many people think Leave need to be 4-5 ahead to win.GIN1138 said:
Why? The only change is LEAVE +2?bigjohnowls said:
Good for remain IMOTheScreamingEagles said:Opinium Remain 44% (nc) Leave: 44% (+2). Fieldwork almost all of it conducted before the murder of Jo Cox
But really it says nothing I think.0 -
One voter told me that she voted for me because I was taller than my opponent and "I like our representatives to be tall".kle4 said:
Less charitably, people vote for stupid reasons all the time, all of us at one time or another, and that's democracy for you.
Duh.
0 -
Seafood pasta...divine. I'm a veggie, but I eat seafood. I had a scampi linguine in a unremarkable restaurant outside Piombino 4 years ago. I still dream about it, undoubtedly the most exquisite culinary experience of my life.SeanT said:
I had one of the very best dishes of my entire life last night, here in the hotel. The chef is a genius.tyson said:
It's the light that is breathtaking in Italy. Roger told me that about the light he remembered over the Ponte Vecchio in Florence, reminiscing about the past.SeanT said:
No, just Calabria. Which is scruffy, ugly, gangstery and poor, yet studded with occasional sublime gems. Like the hotel I'm in. I've stayed in a few nice hotels, in my time, as I may have mentioned, but the Praia Art Resort is up there with the best of them. World class.tyson said:
I'll be cliched....but the truth is stranger than fiction. My wife still cannot believe my family history which just seems utterly preposterous.SeanT said:As a thriller writer, if I presented Mair to my editor as a plot device, she'd laugh in my face and tell me stop being so cliched, far fetched and unbelievable. She'd also say the plot twist was far too neat and convenient
Are you venturing into Tuscany on your Italian odyssey?
The food is indescribably good. We have our own private slice of Ionian Sea. Here I am right now, writing this comment
https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/744219064751521794
I have had the most spectacular lunch today overlooking Florence and the Apennines.. Italy is just too beautiful. Italians live for food. They dream about food. And their food is based on simplicity and local ingredients. It is not fussy. I shared an 8 Euro bottle of house white today...I feel I have to start economising because of Brexit (as you will too as you fight negative equity and rising interest rates on your Primrose Hill Residence)...it was just fine. I wouldn't have noticed the difference with my usual choice.
It was ostensibly simple, taglialini with fat prawns and lots of Sila black truffle. But everything had been done with meticulous care and first class ingredients, right down to the type and age of French butter they used for the pasta (the chef explained it to me).
Brilliant. Also bloody expensive (especially for Calabria). But I wasn't paying. Forza Italia!!
How much was your plate of pasta?
0 -
Malthus!PrinceofTaranto said:
Genuine question to Remainers and indeed some Leavers on the site who want free movement.Do you actually care if this country's population grows to 80 million or more in your lifetime ? I just cannot understand why anyone would want that but it seems to me you aren't worried about it.Philip_Thompson said:
And they will be held to account at a General Election for whatever they agree. Isn't democracy great? Who could oppose that?Scott_P said:
And that would be a bigger question, given many of the prominent Leavers want free movement.logical_song said:You could also ask:
"If Leave wins now,the question I have is where the immigration issue then goes." It's not clear. 0 -
She was being polite she voted Tory. She couldn't bring herself to say I couldn't vote for you your policies are loopy.NickPalmer said:
One voter told me that she voted for me because I was taller than my opponent and "I like our representatives to be tall".kle4 said:
Less charitably, people vote for stupid reasons all the time, all of us at one time or another, and that's democracy for you.
Duh.0 -
I pointed out the other day that Leave was surprisingly popular with my ethnic medical and nursing colleagues, roughly a 50/50 split. I also predicted from overheard conversations 60/40 in favour of Leave.chestnut said:
Public sector workers reluctant to say Leave ?foxinsoxuk said:
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.NoEasyDay said:
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.KentRising said:The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
I'm amazed they ever admitted to it to start with.
Leicestershire is classic Middle England swing territory, not just geographically. We are pretty much average income, age distribution, and only a bit higher BME (Leicester is very multicultural but 2/3 of the population is in the County).0 -
You're tall? Well, I rescind what I said to Tyson about being willing to vote for you - being 5ft 7", I prefer my candidates in a Sarkozy kind of range.NickPalmer said:
One voter told me that she voted for me because I was taller than my opponent and "I like our representatives to be tall".kle4 said:
Less charitably, people vote for stupid reasons all the time, all of us at one time or another, and that's democracy for you.
Duh.0 -
You are very tall Nick. And you have a good stride. That's good enough for me. If you were a short arse, I wouldn't bother.NickPalmer said:
One voter told me that she voted for me because I was taller than my opponent and "I like our representatives to be tall".kle4 said:
Less charitably, people vote for stupid reasons all the time, all of us at one time or another, and that's democracy for you.
Duh.
0 -
I am afraid, sir, that you & your colleagues are misinterpreting the shot across the bows. If it has any relevance, it is a harbinger of what the future would be like under Remain.foxinsoxuk said:
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.NoEasyDay said:
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.KentRising said:The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
If we vote Leave, there is a chance of dealing with this sort of ... infection?
If we vote Remain, it will be swept under the carpet and ignored. Perhaps a better analogy might be the way the fire at King's Cross started - out of sight, until too late.0 -
His 'Goebbels' guy is quite good...Pulpstar said:
He is 1.1 for the nomination btw.RodCrosby said:TRUMP - Live in Vegas!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zh33WbZULE0 -
Oh I'm certainly not laying off !RodCrosby said:
His 'Goebbels' guy is quite good...Pulpstar said:
He is 1.1 for the nomination btw.RodCrosby said:TRUMP - Live in Vegas!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zh33WbZULE0 -
Most of the time a floating voter knows they can change their mind next time. What sets this referendum aside is that there is no next time.kle4 said:
Yes, I think that's true.foxinsoxuk said:
People decide how they vote with a mixture of rational and irrational motives. That's democracy.Casino_Royale said:
It is not a good thing if this changes any votes.foxinsoxuk said:
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.NoEasyDay said:
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.KentRising said:The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
Not at all.
NickP has remarked in the past how many voters, even a majority, make their decision because of the general feel of a party. I think that is true here too.
Less charitably, people vote for stupid reasons all the time, all of us at one time or another, and that's democracy for you.0 -
At the 2010 election I was telling outside a polling station and a woman arrived and announced that she hadn't made her mind up and could we (the tellers) convince her which way to vote. Stunned, and very much aware of the election regulations, the opposing teller and I looked at each other and then just smiled at her. She pointed at me and said 'you look trustworthy I'll vote for your lot', and in she went. If only she knew!!!NickPalmer said:
One voter told me that she voted for me because I was taller than my opponent and "I like our representatives to be tall".kle4 said:
Less charitably, people vote for stupid reasons all the time, all of us at one time or another, and that's democracy for you.
Duh.0 -
Channel 4 are showing Independence Day (original and best) at 8pm!0
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The public sector is a hotbed of europhilia.chestnut said:
Public sector workers reluctant to say Leave ?foxinsoxuk said:
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.NoEasyDay said:
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.KentRising said:The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
I'm amazed they ever admitted to it to start with.0 -
There could be a second chance with Remain (indeed quite likely like a second indy ref) but will not happen if we Leave.ThreeQuidder said:
Most of the time a floating voter knows they can change their mind next time. What sets this referendum aside is that there is no next time.kle4 said:
Yes, I think that's true.foxinsoxuk said:
People decide how they vote with a mixture of rational and irrational motives. That's democracy.Casino_Royale said:
It is not a good thing if this changes any votes.foxinsoxuk said:
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.NoEasyDay said:
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.KentRising said:The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
Not at all.
NickP has remarked in the past how many voters, even a majority, make their decision because of the general feel of a party. I think that is true here too.
Less charitably, people vote for stupid reasons all the time, all of us at one time or another, and that's democracy for you.
Undecideds should vote Remain if they want a bit longer to think it over.0 -
Funny old game football. Iceland's draw against Portugal was the highest of highs for them. Their draw against Hungary the lowest of lows....0
-
Prior to Opinium's changes in methodology, this would have put Leave about 5% ahead. There's been a swing of about 4.5% from Remain to Leave with Opinium, over three weeks.0
-
Doesn't mean they won't decide their vote for a stupid reason.ThreeQuidder said:
Most of the time a floating voter knows they can change their mind next time. What sets this referendum aside is that there is no next time.kle4 said:
Yes, I think that's true.foxinsoxuk said:
People decide how they vote with a mixture of rational and irrational motives. That's democracy.Casino_Royale said:
It is not a good thing if this changes any votes.foxinsoxuk said:
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.NoEasyDay said:
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.KentRising said:The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
Not at all.
NickP has remarked in the past how many voters, even a majority, make their decision because of the general feel of a party. I think that is true here too.
Less charitably, people vote for stupid reasons all the time, all of us at one time or another, and that's democracy for you.0 -
So, let me get this right...if we vote leave, then that'll sort out the English hooligan problem, the EDL, the BNP, Farage's populism, bigotry, racist targeting of immigrants, the hateful Murdoch and Dacre press... a vote leave will sort all that out. I'm convinced......AnneJGP said:
I am afraid, sir, that you & your colleagues are misinterpreting the shot across the bows. If it has any relevance, it is a harbinger of what the future would be like under Remain.foxinsoxuk said:
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.NoEasyDay said:
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.KentRising said:The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
If we vote Leave, there is a chance of dealing with this sort of ... infection?
If we vote Remain, it will be swept under the carpet and ignored. Perhaps a better analogy might be the way the fire at King's Cross started - out of sight, until too late.
0 -
They were leading until the 87th minute!MarqueeMark said:Funny old game football. Iceland's draw against Portugal was the highest of highs for them. Their draw against Hungary the lowest of lows....
0 -
5 days till independence day U.K !Sunil_Prasannan said:Channel 4 are showing Independence Day (original and best) at 8pm!
0 -
He's like an American Daniel Hannan.RodCrosby said:
His 'Goebbels' guy is quite good...Pulpstar said:
He is 1.1 for the nomination btw.RodCrosby said:TRUMP - Live in Vegas!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zh33WbZULE0 -
If you eat seafood, you are not a vegetarian!tyson said:
Seafood pasta...divine. I'm a veggie, but I eat seafood. I had a scampi linguine in a unremarkable restaurant outside Piombino 4 years ago. I still dream about it, undoubtedly the most exquisite culinary experience of my life.SeanT said:
I had one of the very best dishes of my entire life last night, here in the hotel. The chef is a genius.tyson said:
It's the light that is breathtaking in Italy. Roger told me that about the light he remembered over the Ponte Vecchio in Florence, reminiscing about the past.SeanT said:
No, just Calabria. Which is scruffy, ugly, gangstery and poor, yet studded with occasional sublime gems. Like the hotel I'm in. I've stayed in a few nice hotels, in my time, as I may have mentioned, but the Praia Art Resort is up there with the best of them. World class.tyson said:
I'll be cliched....but the truth is stranger than fiction. My wife still cannot believe my family history which just seems utterly preposterous.SeanT said:As a thriller writer, if I presented Mair to my editor as a plot device, she'd laugh in my face and tell me stop being so cliched, far fetched and unbelievable. She'd also say the plot twist was far too neat and convenient
Are you venturing into Tuscany on your Italian odyssey?
The food is indescribably good. We have our own private slice of Ionian Sea. Here I am right now, writing this comment
https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/744219064751521794
I have had the most spectacular lunch today overlooking Florence and the Apennines.. Italy is just too beautiful. Italians live for food. They dream about food. And their food is based on simplicity and local ingredients. It is not fussy. I shared an 8 Euro bottle of house white today...I feel I have to start economising because of Brexit (as you will too as you fight negative equity and rising interest rates on your Primrose Hill Residence)...it was just fine. I wouldn't have noticed the difference with my usual choice.
It was ostensibly simple, taglialini with fat prawns and lots of Sila black truffle. But everything had been done with meticulous care and first class ingredients, right down to the type and age of French butter they used for the pasta (the chef explained it to me).
Brilliant. Also bloody expensive (especially for Calabria). But I wasn't paying. Forza Italia!!
How much was your plate of pasta?0 -
Remain now totally reliant on 18-24 year olds. That just ain't gonna happen.
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/7442250525693132800 -
What impact do we think recent events will have on turnout? 3 days with minimal campaigning, rallies and canvassing cancelled. Just saw the headlines on BBC news - Jo Cox's family's statement, the trial, Tim Peake and England beating Australia at Rugby. Not sure I heard the referendum mentioned?0
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Exciting stuff.nunu said:
5 days till independence day U.K !Sunil_Prasannan said:Channel 4 are showing Independence Day (original and best) at 8pm!
Picked up another 1,500 leaflets for the next few days. Can't wait to deliver them all.0 -
Thanks for you all your work TSE!! Is OGH on holiday?TheScreamingEagles said:
I don't think so. I completed an opinium last night.GIN1138 said:
Is that Opinium's final say on the matter? :OTheScreamingEagles said:Opinium Remain 44% (nc) Leave: 44% (+2). Fieldwork almost all of it conducted before the murder of Jo Cox
Now leave me alone, as I'm writing the ComRes thread.0 -
Clinton is a "career criminal"...0
-
I count prawns, scampi and mussels and wotnot as floating mushrooms. I would eat insects too.Sunil_Prasannan said:
If you eat seafood, you are not a vegetarian!tyson said:
Seafood pasta...divine. I'm a veggie, but I eat seafood. I had a scampi linguine in a unremarkable restaurant outside Piombino 4 years ago. I still dream about it, undoubtedly the most exquisite culinary experience of my life.SeanT said:
I had one of the very best dishes of my entire life last night, here in the hotel. The chef is a genius.tyson said:
It's the light that is breathtaking in Italy. Roger told me that about the light he remembered over the Ponte Vecchio in Florence, reminiscing about the past.SeanT said:
No, just Calabria. Which is scruffy, ugly, gangstery and poor, yet studded with occasional sublime gems. Like the hotel I'm in. I've stayed in a few nice hotels, in my time, as I may have mentioned, but the Praia Art Resort is up there with the best of them. World class.tyson said:
I'll be cliched....but the truth is stranger than fiction. My wife still cannot believe my family history which just seems utterly preposterous.SeanT said:As a thriller writer, if I presented Mair to my editor as a plot device, she'd laugh in my face and tell me stop being so cliched, far fetched and unbelievable. She'd also say the plot twist was far too neat and convenient
Are you venturing into Tuscany on your Italian odyssey?
The food is indescribably good. We have our own private slice of Ionian Sea. Here I am right now, writing this comment
https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/744219064751521794
I have had the most spectacular lunch today overlooking Florence and the Apennines.. Italy is just too beautiful. Italians live for food. They dream about food. And their food is based on simplicity and local ingredients. It is not fussy. I shared an 8 Euro bottle of house white today...I feel I have to start economising because of Brexit (as you will too as you fight negative equity and rising interest rates on your Primrose Hill Residence)...it was just fine. I wouldn't have noticed the difference with my usual choice.
It was ostensibly simple, taglialini with fat prawns and lots of Sila black truffle. But everything had been done with meticulous care and first class ingredients, right down to the type and age of French butter they used for the pasta (the chef explained it to me).
Brilliant. Also bloody expensive (especially for Calabria). But I wasn't paying. Forza Italia!!
How much was your plate of pasta?
0 -
What makes you say so? That is quite the opposite of the EU's track record.foxinsoxuk said:
There could be a second chance with Remain (indeed quite likely like a second indy ref) but will not happen if we Leave.ThreeQuidder said:
Most of the time a floating voter knows they can change their mind next time. What sets this referendum aside is that there is no next time.kle4 said:
Yes, I think that's true.foxinsoxuk said:
People decide how they vote with a mixture of rational and irrational motives. That's democracy.Casino_Royale said:
It is not a good thing if this changes any votes.foxinsoxuk said:
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.NoEasyDay said:
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.KentRising said:The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
Not at all.
NickP has remarked in the past how many voters, even a majority, make their decision because of the general feel of a party. I think that is true here too.
Less charitably, people vote for stupid reasons all the time, all of us at one time or another, and that's democracy for you.
Undecideds should vote Remain if they want a bit longer to think it over.0 -
Nope. This is it. If we vote Remain we will be deemed to have endorsed the Project.foxinsoxuk said:
There could be a second chance with Remain (indeed quite likely like a second indy ref) but will not happen if we Leave.ThreeQuidder said:
Most of the time a floating voter knows they can change their mind next time. What sets this referendum aside is that there is no next time.kle4 said:
Yes, I think that's true.foxinsoxuk said:
People decide how they vote with a mixture of rational and irrational motives. That's democracy.Casino_Royale said:
It is not a good thing if this changes any votes.foxinsoxuk said:
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.NoEasyDay said:
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.KentRising said:The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
Not at all.
NickP has remarked in the past how many voters, even a majority, make their decision because of the general feel of a party. I think that is true here too.
Less charitably, people vote for stupid reasons all the time, all of us at one time or another, and that's democracy for you.
Undecideds should vote Remain if they want a bit longer to think it over.0 -
I see the crap spewing from your mouth is not confined to politics.tyson said:
Seafood pasta...divine. I'm a veggie, but I eat seafood. I had a scampi linguine in a unremarkable restaurant outside Piombino 4 years ago. I still dream about it, undoubtedly the most exquisite culinary experience of my life.SeanT said:
I had one of the very best dishes of my entire life last night, here in the hotel. The chef is a genius.tyson said:
It's the light that is breathtaking in Italy. Roger told me that about the light he remembered over the Ponte Vecchio in Florence, reminiscing about the past.SeanT said:
No, just Calabria. Which is scruffy, ugly, gangstery and poor, yet studded with occasional sublime gems. Like the hotel I'm in. I've stayed in a few nice hotels, in my time, as I may have mentioned, but the Praia Art Resort is up there with the best of them. World class.tyson said:
I'll be cliched....but the truth is stranger than fiction. My wife still cannot believe my family history which just seems utterly preposterous.SeanT said:As a thriller writer, if I presented Mair to my editor as a plot device, she'd laugh in my face and tell me stop being so cliched, far fetched and unbelievable. She'd also say the plot twist was far too neat and convenient
Are you venturing into Tuscany on your Italian odyssey?
The food is indescribably good. We have our own private slice of Ionian Sea. Here I am right now, writing this comment
https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/744219064751521794
I have had the most spectacular lunch today overlooking Florence and the Apennines.. Italy is just too beautiful. Italians live for food. They dream about food. And their food is based on simplicity and local ingredients. It is not fussy. I shared an 8 Euro bottle of house white today...I feel I have to start economising because of Brexit (as you will too as you fight negative equity and rising interest rates on your Primrose Hill Residence)...it was just fine. I wouldn't have noticed the difference with my usual choice.
It was ostensibly simple, taglialini with fat prawns and lots of Sila black truffle. But everything had been done with meticulous care and first class ingredients, right down to the type and age of French butter they used for the pasta (the chef explained it to me).
Brilliant. Also bloody expensive (especially for Calabria). But I wasn't paying. Forza Italia!!
How much was your plate of pasta?0 -
To be honest, the hornets nest that has been kicked is going to cause a lot of people to be stung whether Leave or Remain. I would prefer not to have the kicker in charge afterwards.tyson said:
So, let me get this right...if we vote leave, then that'll sort out the English hooligan problem, the EDL, the BNP, Farage's populism, bigotry, racist targeting of immigrants, the hateful Murdoch and Dacre press... a vote leave will sort all that out. I'm convinced......AnneJGP said:
I am afraid, sir, that you & your colleagues are misinterpreting the shot across the bows. If it has any relevance, it is a harbinger of what the future would be like under Remain.foxinsoxuk said:
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.NoEasyDay said:
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.KentRising said:The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
If we vote Leave, there is a chance of dealing with this sort of ... infection?
If we vote Remain, it will be swept under the carpet and ignored. Perhaps a better analogy might be the way the fire at King's Cross started - out of sight, until too late.
Like you I am on Leave for betting purposes, but will be very happy to lose the bet. It would restore my faith in the great British public.0
