It is interesting to compare the understanding being afforded to this man at this time compared to the two who knifed Lee Rigby.
It reminds me of the treatment of the killer of Yitzhak Rabin who was killed by a right wing Jewish extremist. A terrible tragedy but it was commented on at the time that the treatment of his assailant who was immediately sent for psychiatric evaluation was very different to that which a Palestinian might have expected had he even survived to face trial.
If Remain wins now,the question I have is where the immigration issue then goes.Are people who oppose the current levels of immigration just going to roll over and accept they have lost and we are going to live in a country of 75 to 80 million in the next 30 years?
They will need to to vote UKIP or ensure Cameron's replacement is really, no fooling serious about immigration, to mitigate the situation as much as they can,
There are alot of issues with that as we well know.Tories will be told that voting UKIP will let Corbyn in and he will be worse; the electoral system stuffs UKIP; Labour voters will probably revert to type come any GE. Also given that there is no way of controlling EU immigration the scope for reduction is pretty limited . I see huge structural problems ahead.
As do I. There isn't a very good solution for people who are voting Leave because they care about immigration, should Leave fail.
The grit in the ointment is the final paragraph of the article written by Marina Hyde and posted earlier by Carlotta. It explains why, despite all the arguments put forward by cyclefree and others there really is only one choice
"There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?"
Using that logic, is a vote for Remain is a vote for the IRA, anti-semites and ISIS apologists?
You can try and make this stick...if you can. Then you look at the likes of Jo Cox, Obama, the Pope, Lagarde, Alistair Darling, Cameron, Gordon Brown, Sam Cam, Carney, the Miliband brothers, Justine Greening and about 480 other MP's, Nobel prize scientists, the universities, 80% plus of economists, Stephen Hawking, the IMF, Merkel....and so the list goes on
Can you please find me one, just once credible voice behind leave....not Nadine Dorries, or Priti Patel, or Gove or Johnson, or Farage, of IDS, to Howard, or Murdoch, or Dacre, or Lawson, or Michael Howard, or Guthrie or John Mann...is there a single credible, mainstream voice behind leave that could make someone like me listen?
Since you dismiss any and every Leaver as non-credible... No.
2) REMAIN is trying to capitalise on the recent murder. This will cower LEAVE but unlikely to change minds. LEAVE are fed up with being told what they can say.
and 3... 3 points!
3) LEAVE doesnt need a manifesto, or budget. LEAVE is just a decision to LEAVE the EU. LEAVE comprises Labour, Conservative, UKIP and other. They have no obligation to form a common policy.
Good points, but for 1) the Single European Act dates from 1986.
The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The grit in the ointment is the final paragraph of the article written by Marina Hyde and posted earlier by Carlotta. It explains why, despite all the arguments put forward by cyclefree and others there really is only one choice
"There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?"
Using that logic, is a vote for Remain is a vote for the IRA, anti-semites and ISIS apologists?
You can try and make this stick...if you can. Then you look at the likes of Jo Cox, Obama, the Pope, Lagarde, Alistair Darling, Cameron, Gordon Brown, Sam Cam, Carney, the Miliband brothers, Justine Greening and about 480 other MP's, Nobel prize scientists, the universities, 80% plus of economists, Stephen Hawking, the IMF, Merkel....and so the list goes on
Can you please find me one, just once credible voice behind leave....not Nadine Dorries, or Priti Patel, or Gove or Johnson, or Farage, of IDS, to Howard, or Murdoch, or Dacre, or Lawson, or Michael Howard, or Guthrie or John Mann...is there a single credible, mainstream voice behind leave that could make someone like me listen?
"It must be considered that there is nothing more difficult to carry out nor more doubtful of success nor more dangerous to handle than to initiate a new order of things; for the reformer has enemies in all those who profit by the old order, and only lukewarm defenders in all those who would profit by the new order; this lukewarmness arising partly from the incredulity of mankind who does not truly believe in anything new until they actually have experience of it
True then. True now. No one is trying to persuade you tyson. Your mind is made up. Good for you. Happy voting!
2) REMAIN is trying to capitalise on the recent murder. This will cower LEAVE but unlikely to change minds. LEAVE are fed up with being told what they can say.
and 3... 3 points!
3) LEAVE doesnt need a manifesto, or budget. LEAVE is just a decision to LEAVE the EU. LEAVE comprises Labour, Conservative, UKIP and other. They have no obligation to form a common policy.
And 4 ...4 Points!
I have bones broken in my face from skinhead attacks in the 70s. Skinheads disappeared when M.Thatcher brought in the Nationality Act.
The murder by someone against the EU (or immigration) was not unpredicted. Some have been saying for years that mass immigration will lead to violence, whether in the form of a Breivik or Lee Rigby type attack. It has been predicted for years, but was written off as racist. Ironic really that someone who suffered racist attacks gets called racist by white people.
Winchester: two Remain posters, one Leave poster. A couple of Quakers campaigning on the high street claiming William Penn wanted a European Parliament. Not much business. Saw a couple of rather introverted BSE campaigners in their 40s in a side-street not doing much at all, other than being glued to their iPhones. They then went to the pub, ordered a drink, and then resumed reading their iPhones. Otherwise, nothing on the referendum going on noticeably at all.
I was there with my folks. Aged 70/75. They, their friends, and everyone they know in their social circle is voting Leave. They live in rural North-West Hampshire.
Facebook: absolutely filled to brim with friends gunning full-on for Remain. No sign of exploitation the murder at all. But two or three usually rational, and level-headed people, becoming highly emotional about Remain. All work in London in professional services/finance.
The grit in the ointment is the final paragraph of the article written by Marina Hyde and posted earlier by Carlotta. It explains why, despite all the arguments put forward by cyclefree and others there really is only one choice
"There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?"
Definitely worth it, if only to give one in the eye to some privileged, snooty cow who doesn't encounter people like Farage (or his millions of voters) at her dinner parties...
Articles focussing on personalities just show how devoid of arguments remain have become
Farage isn't the bogeyman the left would like him to be boorish perhaps but he's anything but the new fuehrer
He is the archetypal saloon bar boor. A very typical type of Englishman. There is no other country on earth he could come from. Great for a pint, painful for two.
2) REMAIN is trying to capitalise on the recent murder. This will cower LEAVE but unlikely to change minds. LEAVE are fed up with being told what they can say.
and 3... 3 points!
3) LEAVE doesnt need a manifesto, or budget. LEAVE is just a decision to LEAVE the EU. LEAVE comprises Labour, Conservative, UKIP and other. They have no obligation to form a common policy.
And 4 ...4 Points!
I have bones broken in my face from skinhead attacks in the 70s. Skinheads disappeared when M.Thatcher brought in the Nationality Act.
The murder by someone against the EU (or immigration) was not unpredicted. Some have been saying for years that mass immigration will lead to violence, whether in the form of a Breivik or Lee Rigby type attack. It has been predicted for years, but was written off as racist. Ironic really that someone who suffered racist attacks gets called racist by white people.
Did they say something similar to "like the Roman I seem to see the Tiber foaming with much blood"
If Remain wins now,the question I have is where the immigration issue then goes.Are people who oppose the current levels of immigration just going to roll over and accept they have lost and we are going to live in a country of 75 to 80 million in the next 30 years?
They will need to to vote UKIP or ensure Cameron's replacement is really, no fooling serious about immigration, to mitigate the situation as much as they can,
There are alot of issues with that as we well know.Tories will be told that voting UKIP will let Corbyn in and he will be worse; the electoral system stuffs UKIP; Labour voters will probably revert to type come any GE. Also given that there is no way of controlling EU immigration the scope for reduction is pretty limited . I see huge structural problems ahead.
It would be 2005 in reverse, then after Iraq Labour voters in marginals held their noses and voted Labour but in safe seats they voted LD thus Labour won a majority of over 60 on just 35% of the vote. Tory Leavers could do the same with UKIP
2) REMAIN is trying to capitalise on the recent murder. This will cower LEAVE but unlikely to change minds. LEAVE are fed up with being told what they can say.
and 3... 3 points!
3) LEAVE doesnt need a manifesto, or budget. LEAVE is just a decision to LEAVE the EU. LEAVE comprises Labour, Conservative, UKIP and other. They have no obligation to form a common policy.
Give or take a few months the EU is actually 23 years old.
It came into existence with the signing of the Treaty on European Union (or Maastricht Treaty) which entered into force on 1st November 1993
It is interesting to compare the understanding being afforded to this man at this time compared to the two who knifed Lee Rigby.
It reminds me of the treatment of the killer of Yitzhak Rabin who was killed by a right wing Jewish extremist. A terrible tragedy but it was commented on at the time that the treatment of his assailant who was immediately sent for psychiatric evaluation was very different to that which a Palestinian might have expected had he even survived to face trial.
Yep - but it's worth remembering this works both ways. Hopefully, everyone will be more circumspect in future when these dreadful things happen.
The grit in the ointment is the final paragraph of the article written by Marina Hyde and posted earlier by Carlotta. It explains why, despite all the arguments put forward by cyclefree and others there really is only one choice
"There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?"
Using that logic, is a vote for Remain is a vote for the IRA, anti-semites and ISIS apologists?
You can try and make this stick...if you can. Then you look at the likes of Jo Cox, Obama, the Pope, Lagarde, Alistair Darling, Cameron, Gordon Brown, Sam Cam, Carney, the Miliband brothers, Justine Greening and about 480 other MP's, Nobel prize scientists, the universities, 80% plus of economists, Stephen Hawking, the IMF, Merkel....and so the list goes on
Can you please find me one, just once credible voice behind leave....not Nadine Dorries, or Priti Patel, or Gove or Johnson, or Farage, of IDS, to Howard, or Murdoch, or Dacre, or Lawson, or Michael Howard, or Guthrie or John Mann...is there a single credible, mainstream voice behind leave that could make someone like me listen?
No, there isn't. The problem is not one of credibility but wavelength.
The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
There are still 5 days to go.
Deep breath..
This isn't over yet. We have to have confidence that the British people will make the right decision for the right reason.
Winchester: two Remain posters, one Leave poster. A couple of Quakers campaigning on the high street claiming William Penn wanted a European Parliament. Not much business. Saw a couple of rather introverted BSE campaigners in their 40s in a side-street not doing much at all, other than being glued to their iPhones. They then went to the pub, ordered a drink, and then resumed reading their iPhones. Otherwise, nothing on the referendum going on noticeably at all.
I was there with my folks. Aged 70/75. They, their friends, and everyone they know in their social circle is voting Leave. They live in rural North-West Hampshire.
Facebook: absolutely filled to brim with friends gunning full-on for Remain. No sign of exploitation the murder at all. But two or three usually rational, and level-headed people, becoming highly emotional about Remain. All work in London in professional services/finance.
How weird the "Bovine spongiform encephalopathy" campaigners were they for or against BSE ?
Winchester: two Remain posters, one Leave poster. A couple of Quakers campaigning on the high street claiming William Penn wanted a European Parliament. Not much business. Saw a couple of rather introverted BSE campaigners in their 40s in a side-street not doing much at all, other than being glued to their iPhones. They then went to the pub, ordered a drink, and then resumed reading their iPhones. Otherwise, nothing on the referendum going on noticeably at all.
I was there with my folks. Aged 70/75. They, their friends, and everyone they know in their social circle is voting Leave. They live in rural North-West Hampshire.
Facebook: absolutely filled to brim with friends gunning full-on for Remain. No sign of exploitation the murder at all. But two or three usually rational, and level-headed people, becoming highly emotional about Remain. All work in London in professional services/finance.
How weird the "Bovine spongiform encephalopathy" campaigners were they for or against BSE ?
It is interesting to compare the understanding being afforded to this man at this time compared to the two who knifed Lee Rigby.
It reminds me of the treatment of the killer of Yitzhak Rabin who was killed by a right wing Jewish extremist. A terrible tragedy but it was commented on at the time that the treatment of his assailant who was immediately sent for psychiatric evaluation was very different to that which a Palestinian might have expected had he even survived to face trial.
Yep - but it's worth remembering this works both ways. Hopefully, everyone will be more circumspect in future when these dreadful things happen.
Unfortunately I doubt that will ever happen. Social media is both a gift and a curse.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes."
Ignoring the people seems common these days, like Brown signing the Lisbon Treaty.
Sure he would. It's an executive power.
Brexiteers keep telling us there is no Leave manifesto (even though they published one). The Government will interpret the vote as they see fit, and most of them want Free Movement
2) REMAIN is trying to capitalise on the recent murder. This will cower LEAVE but unlikely to change minds. LEAVE are fed up with being told what they can say.
and 3... 3 points!
3) LEAVE doesnt need a manifesto, or budget. LEAVE is just a decision to LEAVE the EU. LEAVE comprises Labour, Conservative, UKIP and other. They have no obligation to form a common policy.
And 4 ...4 Points!
I have bones broken in my face from skinhead attacks in the 70s. Skinheads disappeared when M.Thatcher brought in the Nationality Act.
I had all my fingers broken by some BNP heavies back in 1984.
The grit in the ointment is the final paragraph of the article written by Marina Hyde and posted earlier by Carlotta. It explains why, despite all the arguments put forward by cyclefree and others there really is only one choice
"There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?"
Using that logic, is a vote for Remain is a vote for the IRA, anti-semites and ISIS apologists?
You can try and make this stick...if you can. Then you look at the likes of Jo Cox, Obama, the Pope, Lagarde, Alistair Darling, Cameron, Gordon Brown, Sam Cam, Carney, the Miliband brothers, Justine Greening and about 480 other MP's, Nobel prize scientists, the universities, 80% plus of economists, Stephen Hawking, the IMF, Merkel....and so the list goes on
Can you please find me one, just once credible voice behind leave....not Nadine Dorries, or Priti Patel, or Gove or Johnson, or Farage, of IDS, to Howard, or Murdoch, or Dacre, or Lawson, or Michael Howard, or Guthrie or John Mann...is there a single credible, mainstream voice behind leave that could make someone like me listen?
These lists of names do make me laugh
- the people who bust the global financial system - the people who bust the Eurozone - the people who bust Britain taking it into the ERM - the people who bust the Schengen consensus with the migrant crisis - the people who bombed Baghdad - the people who buggered the Labour Party - the people who bombed Brighton and Bishopsgate - the people who expected oil to be $110 a barrel
Billionaire manufacturers like Bamford and Dyson trump pen-pushing economic theorists with bad track records every day.
Digby Jones and John Longworth are Leave.
Minford, Bootle, Congdon, Lilico - some of the UK's most pre-eminent economists are for Leave.
Even the Dalai Lama thinks migration has gone too far;
Did they say something similar to "like the Roman I seem to see the Tiber foaming with much blood"
That was one person and what he predicted seems to be coming to fruition.
Clever man Enoch. He saw the danger of Nazi Germany and knew there would be war. He resigned his position as Professor and travelled to England to be ready. He enlisted in the Army as a private, and ended a half colonel.
The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
Did they say something similar to "like the Roman I seem to see the Tiber foaming with much blood"
That was one person and what he predicted seems to be coming to fruition.
Clever man Enoch. He saw the danger of Nazi Germany and knew there would be war. He resigned his position as Professor and travelled to England to be ready. He enlisted in the Army as a private, and ended a half colonel.
He ended as a brigadier...is that a half colonel ?
As a thriller writer, if I presented Mair to my editor as a plot device, she'd laugh in my face and tell me stop being so cliched, far fetched and unbelievable. She'd also say the plot twist was far too neat and convenient
I'll be cliched....but the truth is stranger than fiction. My wife still cannot believe my family history which just seems utterly preposterous.
Are you venturing into Tuscany on your Italian odyssey?
No, just Calabria. Which is scruffy, ugly, gangstery and poor, yet studded with occasional sublime gems. Like the hotel I'm in. I've stayed in a few nice hotels, in my time, as I may have mentioned, but the Praia Art Resort is up there with the best of them. World class.
The food is indescribably good. We have our own private slice of Ionian Sea. Here I am right now, writing this comment
It's the light that is breathtaking in Italy. Roger told me that about the light he remembered over the Ponte Vecchio in Florence, reminiscing about the past.
I have had the most spectacular lunch today overlooking Florence and the Apennines.. Italy is just too beautiful. Italians live for food. They dream about food. And their food is based on simplicity and local ingredients. It is not fussy. I shared an 8 Euro bottle of house white today...I feel I have to start economising because of Brexit (as you will too as you fight negative equity and rising interest rates on your Primrose Hill Residence)...it was just fine. I wouldn't have noticed the difference with my usual choice.
Ignoring the people seems common these days, like Brown signing the Lisbon Treaty.
Sure he would. It's an executive power.
Brexiteers keep telling us there is no Leave manifesto (even though they published one). The Government will interpret the vote as they see fit, and most of them want Free Movement
But right from the start Cameron said it was up to the Brexiteers to set out what would happen after a Leave vote. Are you saying that even though they have done exactly that Cameron would ignore their 'manifesto' and the will of the people in the event of a Leave vote?
The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
Well lets come back on 24th and see how they finally voted !
Dr. Foxinsox, the murder doesn't alter the arguments on economics, migration, sovereignty or integration. I'm baffled why anyone on either side would alter their view.
Those who want to vote Leave are not drunk, they've just reached a different conclusion to you. It's entirely possible for reasonable men to reach differing conclusions when presented with the same evidence. Indeed, that's the basis of democracy.
I had all my fingers broken by some BNP heavies back in 1984.
Yeah, still some hanging around, but probably no more new blood to replace those getting jobs and mellowing out. I think Phill Jupitus used to be a skinhead.
Anyways, in the 70s there seemed to be skinheads on every high street. I had to plan my route to avoid them.
After nationality act, everything changed. I would say that 1985-97 was a Goldern Era for race relations.
The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
@DAaronovitch: Yesterday several biggie social media Brexiteers were retweeting fatuous & premature suggestions that Jo Cox’s killer hadn’t shouted… (1)
@DAaronovitch: ….nationalist slogans. The man who claimed it had ‘recanted’ they said. Now it’s become clear what happened THEY might like to recant .
Maybe posters who said the killing of a politician was "not about politics" might also review their position?
Sadly true. Some of the more 'committed' Leave posters on here were going out of their way to slander the eye witnesses, claiming they couldn't possible have been in the position to have heard what they said they heard, so must be making it up. We even had the ludicrous assertion that no such witnesses even existed at all, and they were merely the invention of Laurie Penny.
You could also ask: "If Leave wins now,the question I have is where the immigration issue then goes." It's not clear.
And that would be a bigger question, given many of the prominent Leavers want free movement.
And they will be held to account at a General Election for whatever they agree. Isn't democracy great? Who could oppose that?
Genuine question to Remainers and indeed some Leavers on the site who want free movement.Do you actually care if this country's population grows to 80 million or more in your lifetime ? I just cannot understand why anyone would want that but it seems to me you aren't worried about it.
But right from the start Cameron said it was up to the Brexiteers to set out what would happen after a Leave vote. Are you saying that even though they have done exactly that Cameron would ignore their 'manifesto' and the will of the people in the event of a Leave vote?
The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
Well lets come back on 24th and see how they finally voted !
I bet its still leave.
Go on betfair and you can double your stake, within a week. In the last days I have transferred all my POTUS bets onto Brexit- a hefty wedge. I'm going to leave it there, hope to god I lose the money, and then close up my account.
I had all my fingers broken by some BNP heavies back in 1984.
Yeah, still some hanging around, but probably no more new blood to replace those getting jobs and mellowing out. I think Phill Jupitus used to be a skinhead.
Anyways, in the 70s there seemed to be skinheads on every high street. I had to plan my route to avoid them.
After nationality act, everything changed. I would say that 1985-97 was a Goldern Era for race relations.
My recollection is that life was a little bit more violent back in the day. Everything from the village bobby giving you a clout round the ear, corporal punishment at school, fisticuffs behind the bike sheds and so on. I had so many, I can't actually say how many fights I had...lots.
I guess it was one of the ways we amused ourselves before PC games came along.
The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
Public sector workers reluctant to say Leave ?
I'm amazed they ever admitted to it to start with.
The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
Well lets come back on 24th and see how they finally voted !
I bet its still leave.
Go on betfair and you can double your stake, within a week. In the last days I have transferred all my POTUS bets onto Brexit- a hefty wedge. I'm going to leave it there, hope to god I lose the money, and then close up my account.
How do I bet on two of foxinsox work colleagues on Betfair ? Wots their names ?
You could also ask: "If Leave wins now,the question I have is where the immigration issue then goes." It's not clear.
And that would be a bigger question, given many of the prominent Leavers want free movement.
And they will be held to account at a General Election for whatever they agree. Isn't democracy great? Who could oppose that?
Genuine question to Remainers and indeed some Leavers on the site who want free movement.Do you actually care if this country's population grows to 80 million or more in your lifetime ? I just cannot understand why anyone would want that but it seems to me you aren't worried about it.
I have no idea what the maximum number of people the country could sustain is, but it's bound to grow a lot no matter what happens, so I don't see there's any point worrying too much. I recognise, however, that the mood of the country is that it is too much.
As expected, everything entirely in line with previously, MOE change only. Any impact from the last few days will not be found in polling, if it happens at all, so won't be able to be identified.
The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
It is not a good thing if this changes any votes.
Not at all.
People decide how they vote with a mixture of rational and irrational motives. That's democracy.
NickP has remarked in the past how many voters, even a majority, make their decision because of the general feel of a party. I think that is true here too.
@DAaronovitch: Yesterday several biggie social media Brexiteers were retweeting fatuous & premature suggestions that Jo Cox’s killer hadn’t shouted… (1)
@DAaronovitch: ….nationalist slogans. The man who claimed it had ‘recanted’ they said. Now it’s become clear what happened THEY might like to recant .
Maybe posters who said the killing of a politician was "not about politics" might also review their position?
Sadly true. Some of the more 'committed' Leave posters on here were going out of their way to slander the eye witnesses, claiming they couldn't possible have been in the position to have heard what they said they heard, so must be making it up. We even had the ludicrous assertion that no such witnesses even existed at all, and they were merely the invention of Laurie Penny.
The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
It is not a good thing if this changes any votes.
Not at all.
People decide how they vote with a mixture of rational and irrational motives. That's democracy.
NickP has remarked in the past how many voters, even a majority, make their decision because of the general feel of a party. I think that is true here too.
Yes, I think that's true.
Less charitably, people vote for stupid reasons all the time, all of us at one time or another, and that's democracy for you.
As a thriller writer, if I presented Mair to my editor as a plot device, she'd laugh in my face and tell me stop being so cliched, far fetched and unbelievable. She'd also say the plot twist was far too neat and convenient
I'll be cliched....but the truth is stranger than fiction. My wife still cannot believe my family history which just seems utterly preposterous.
Are you venturing into Tuscany on your Italian odyssey?
No, just Calabria. Which is scruffy, ugly, gangstery and poor, yet studded with occasional sublime gems. Like the hotel I'm in. I've stayed in a few nice hotels, in my time, as I may have mentioned, but the Praia Art Resort is up there with the best of them. World class.
The food is indescribably good. We have our own private slice of Ionian Sea. Here I am right now, writing this comment
It's the light that is breathtaking in Italy. Roger told me that about the light he remembered over the Ponte Vecchio in Florence, reminiscing about the past.
I have had the most spectacular lunch today overlooking Florence and the Apennines.. Italy is just too beautiful. Italians live for food. They dream about food. And their food is based on simplicity and local ingredients. It is not fussy. I shared an 8 Euro bottle of house white today...I feel I have to start economising because of Brexit (as you will too as you fight negative equity and rising interest rates on your Primrose Hill Residence)...it was just fine. I wouldn't have noticed the difference with my usual choice.
I had one of the very best dishes of my entire life last night, here in the hotel. The chef is a genius.
It was ostensibly simple, taglialini with fat prawns and lots of Sila black truffle. But everything had been done with meticulous care and first class ingredients, right down to the type and age of French butter they used for the pasta (the chef explained it to me).
Brilliant. Also bloody expensive (especially for Calabria). But I wasn't paying. Forza Italia!!
Seafood pasta...divine. I'm a veggie, but I eat seafood. I had a scampi linguine in a unremarkable restaurant outside Piombino 4 years ago. I still dream about it, undoubtedly the most exquisite culinary experience of my life.
You could also ask: "If Leave wins now,the question I have is where the immigration issue then goes." It's not clear.
And that would be a bigger question, given many of the prominent Leavers want free movement.
And they will be held to account at a General Election for whatever they agree. Isn't democracy great? Who could oppose that?
Genuine question to Remainers and indeed some Leavers on the site who want free movement.Do you actually care if this country's population grows to 80 million or more in your lifetime ? I just cannot understand why anyone would want that but it seems to me you aren't worried about it.
The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
Public sector workers reluctant to say Leave ?
I'm amazed they ever admitted to it to start with.
I pointed out the other day that Leave was surprisingly popular with my ethnic medical and nursing colleagues, roughly a 50/50 split. I also predicted from overheard conversations 60/40 in favour of Leave.
Leicestershire is classic Middle England swing territory, not just geographically. We are pretty much average income, age distribution, and only a bit higher BME (Leicester is very multicultural but 2/3 of the population is in the County).
Less charitably, people vote for stupid reasons all the time, all of us at one time or another, and that's democracy for you.
One voter told me that she voted for me because I was taller than my opponent and "I like our representatives to be tall".
Duh.
You're tall? Well, I rescind what I said to Tyson about being willing to vote for you - being 5ft 7", I prefer my candidates in a Sarkozy kind of range.
The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
I am afraid, sir, that you & your colleagues are misinterpreting the shot across the bows. If it has any relevance, it is a harbinger of what the future would be like under Remain.
If we vote Leave, there is a chance of dealing with this sort of ... infection?
If we vote Remain, it will be swept under the carpet and ignored. Perhaps a better analogy might be the way the fire at King's Cross started - out of sight, until too late.
The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
It is not a good thing if this changes any votes.
Not at all.
People decide how they vote with a mixture of rational and irrational motives. That's democracy.
NickP has remarked in the past how many voters, even a majority, make their decision because of the general feel of a party. I think that is true here too.
Yes, I think that's true.
Less charitably, people vote for stupid reasons all the time, all of us at one time or another, and that's democracy for you.
Most of the time a floating voter knows they can change their mind next time. What sets this referendum aside is that there is no next time.
Less charitably, people vote for stupid reasons all the time, all of us at one time or another, and that's democracy for you.
One voter told me that she voted for me because I was taller than my opponent and "I like our representatives to be tall".
Duh.
At the 2010 election I was telling outside a polling station and a woman arrived and announced that she hadn't made her mind up and could we (the tellers) convince her which way to vote. Stunned, and very much aware of the election regulations, the opposing teller and I looked at each other and then just smiled at her. She pointed at me and said 'you look trustworthy I'll vote for your lot', and in she went. If only she knew!!!
The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
Public sector workers reluctant to say Leave ?
I'm amazed they ever admitted to it to start with.
The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
It is not a good thing if this changes any votes.
Not at all.
People decide how they vote with a mixture of rational and irrational motives. That's democracy.
NickP has remarked in the past how many voters, even a majority, make their decision because of the general feel of a party. I think that is true here too.
Yes, I think that's true.
Less charitably, people vote for stupid reasons all the time, all of us at one time or another, and that's democracy for you.
Most of the time a floating voter knows they can change their mind next time. What sets this referendum aside is that there is no next time.
There could be a second chance with Remain (indeed quite likely like a second indy ref) but will not happen if we Leave.
Undecideds should vote Remain if they want a bit longer to think it over.
Prior to Opinium's changes in methodology, this would have put Leave about 5% ahead. There's been a swing of about 4.5% from Remain to Leave with Opinium, over three weeks.
The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
It is not a good thing if this changes any votes.
Not at all.
People decide how they vote with a mixture of rational and irrational motives. That's democracy.
NickP has remarked in the past how many voters, even a majority, make their decision because of the general feel of a party. I think that is true here too.
Yes, I think that's true.
Less charitably, people vote for stupid reasons all the time, all of us at one time or another, and that's democracy for you.
Most of the time a floating voter knows they can change their mind next time. What sets this referendum aside is that there is no next time.
Doesn't mean they won't decide their vote for a stupid reason.
The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
I am afraid, sir, that you & your colleagues are misinterpreting the shot across the bows. If it has any relevance, it is a harbinger of what the future would be like under Remain.
If we vote Leave, there is a chance of dealing with this sort of ... infection?
If we vote Remain, it will be swept under the carpet and ignored. Perhaps a better analogy might be the way the fire at King's Cross started - out of sight, until too late.
So, let me get this right...if we vote leave, then that'll sort out the English hooligan problem, the EDL, the BNP, Farage's populism, bigotry, racist targeting of immigrants, the hateful Murdoch and Dacre press... a vote leave will sort all that out. I'm convinced......
Prior to Opinium's changes in methodology, this would have put Leave about 5% ahead. There's been a swing of about 4.5% from Remain to Leave with Opinium, over three weeks.
As a thriller writer, if I presented Mair to my editor as a plot device, she'd laugh in my face and tell me stop being so cliched, far fetched and unbelievable. She'd also say the plot twist was far too neat and convenient
I'll be cliched....but the truth is stranger than fiction. My wife still cannot believe my family history which just seems utterly preposterous.
Are you venturing into Tuscany on your Italian odyssey?
No, just Calabria. Which is scruffy, ugly, gangstery and poor, yet studded with occasional sublime gems. Like the hotel I'm in. I've stayed in a few nice hotels, in my time, as I may have mentioned, but the Praia Art Resort is up there with the best of them. World class.
The food is indescribably good. We have our own private slice of Ionian Sea. Here I am right now, writing this comment
It's the light that is breathtaking in Italy. Roger told me that about the light he remembered over the Ponte Vecchio in Florence, reminiscing about the past.
I have had the most spectacular lunch today overlooking Florence and the Apennines.. Italy is just too beautiful. Italians live for food. They dream about food. And their food is based on simplicity and local ingredients. It is not fussy. I shared an 8 Euro bottle of house white today...I feel I have to start economising because of Brexit (as you will too as you fight negative equity and rising interest rates on your Primrose Hill Residence)...it was just fine. I wouldn't have noticed the difference with my usual choice.
I had one of the very best dishes of my entire life last night, here in the hotel. The chef is a genius.
It was ostensibly simple, taglialini with fat prawns and lots of Sila black truffle. But everything had been done with meticulous care and first class ingredients, right down to the type and age of French butter they used for the pasta (the chef explained it to me).
Brilliant. Also bloody expensive (especially for Calabria). But I wasn't paying. Forza Italia!!
Seafood pasta...divine. I'm a veggie, but I eat seafood. I had a scampi linguine in a unremarkable restaurant outside Piombino 4 years ago. I still dream about it, undoubtedly the most exquisite culinary experience of my life.
What impact do we think recent events will have on turnout? 3 days with minimal campaigning, rallies and canvassing cancelled. Just saw the headlines on BBC news - Jo Cox's family's statement, the trial, Tim Peake and England beating Australia at Rugby. Not sure I heard the referendum mentioned?
As a thriller writer, if I presented Mair to my editor as a plot device, she'd laugh in my face and tell me stop being so cliched, far fetched and unbelievable. She'd also say the plot twist was far too neat and convenient
I'll be cliched....but the truth is stranger than fiction. My wife still cannot believe my family history which just seems utterly preposterous.
Are you venturing into Tuscany on your Italian odyssey?
No, just Calabria. Which is scruffy, ugly, gangstery and poor, yet studded with occasional sublime gems. Like the hotel I'm in. I've stayed in a few nice hotels, in my time, as I may have mentioned, but the Praia Art Resort is up there with the best of them. World class.
The food is indescribably good. We have our own private slice of Ionian Sea. Here I am right now, writing this comment
It's the light that is breathtaking in Italy. Roger told me that about the light he remembered over the Ponte Vecchio in Florence, reminiscing about the past.
I have had the most spectacular lunch today overlooking Florence and the Apennines.. Italy is just too beautiful. Italians live for food. They dream about food. And their food is based on simplicity and local ingredients. It is not fussy. I shared an 8 Euro bottle of house white today...I feel I have to start economising because of Brexit (as you will too as you fight negative equity and rising interest rates on your Primrose Hill Residence)...it was just fine. I wouldn't have noticed the difference with my usual choice.
I had one of the very best dishes of my entire life last night, here in the hotel. The chef is a genius.
It was ostensibly simple, taglialini with fat prawns and lots of Sila black truffle. But everything had been done with meticulous care and first class ingredients, right down to the type and age of French butter they used for the pasta (the chef explained it to me).
Brilliant. Also bloody expensive (especially for Calabria). But I wasn't paying. Forza Italia!!
Seafood pasta...divine. I'm a veggie, but I eat seafood. I had a scampi linguine in a unremarkable restaurant outside Piombino 4 years ago. I still dream about it, undoubtedly the most exquisite culinary experience of my life.
How much was your plate of pasta?
If you eat seafood, you are not a vegetarian!
I count prawns, scampi and mussels and wotnot as floating mushrooms. I would eat insects too.
The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
It is not a good thing if this changes any votes.
Not at all.
People decide how they vote with a mixture of rational and irrational motives. That's democracy.
NickP has remarked in the past how many voters, even a majority, make their decision because of the general feel of a party. I think that is true here too.
Yes, I think that's true.
Less charitably, people vote for stupid reasons all the time, all of us at one time or another, and that's democracy for you.
Most of the time a floating voter knows they can change their mind next time. What sets this referendum aside is that there is no next time.
There could be a second chance with Remain (indeed quite likely like a second indy ref) but will not happen if we Leave.
Undecideds should vote Remain if they want a bit longer to think it over.
What makes you say so? That is quite the opposite of the EU's track record.
The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
It is not a good thing if this changes any votes.
Not at all.
People decide how they vote with a mixture of rational and irrational motives. That's democracy.
NickP has remarked in the past how many voters, even a majority, make their decision because of the general feel of a party. I think that is true here too.
Yes, I think that's true.
Less charitably, people vote for stupid reasons all the time, all of us at one time or another, and that's democracy for you.
Most of the time a floating voter knows they can change their mind next time. What sets this referendum aside is that there is no next time.
There could be a second chance with Remain (indeed quite likely like a second indy ref) but will not happen if we Leave.
Undecideds should vote Remain if they want a bit longer to think it over.
Nope. This is it. If we vote Remain we will be deemed to have endorsed the Project.
As a thriller writer, if I presented Mair to my editor as a plot device, she'd laugh in my face and tell me stop being so cliched, far fetched and unbelievable. She'd also say the plot twist was far too neat and convenient
I'll be cliched....but the truth is stranger than fiction. My wife still cannot believe my family history which just seems utterly preposterous.
Are you venturing into Tuscany on your Italian odyssey?
No, just Calabria. Which is scruffy, ugly, gangstery and poor, yet studded with occasional sublime gems. Like the hotel I'm in. I've stayed in a few nice hotels, in my time, as I may have mentioned, but the Praia Art Resort is up there with the best of them. World class.
The food is indescribably good. We have our own private slice of Ionian Sea. Here I am right now, writing this comment
It's the light that is breathtaking in Italy. Roger told me that about the light he remembered over the Ponte Vecchio in Florence, reminiscing about the past.
I have had the most spectacular lunch today overlooking Florence and the Apennines.. Italy is just too beautiful. Italians live for food. They dream about food. And their food is based on simplicity and local ingredients. It is not fussy. I shared an 8 Euro bottle of house white today...I feel I have to start economising because of Brexit (as you will too as you fight negative equity and rising interest rates on your Primrose Hill Residence)...it was just fine. I wouldn't have noticed the difference with my usual choice.
I had one of the very best dishes of my entire life last night, here in the hotel. The chef is a genius.
It was ostensibly simple, taglialini with fat prawns and lots of Sila black truffle. But everything had been done with meticulous care and first class ingredients, right down to the type and age of French butter they used for the pasta (the chef explained it to me).
Brilliant. Also bloody expensive (especially for Calabria). But I wasn't paying. Forza Italia!!
Seafood pasta...divine. I'm a veggie, but I eat seafood. I had a scampi linguine in a unremarkable restaurant outside Piombino 4 years ago. I still dream about it, undoubtedly the most exquisite culinary experience of my life.
How much was your plate of pasta?
I see the crap spewing from your mouth is not confined to politics.
The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
The murder won't move even one dozen votes.
To my surprise I think it will. At work earlier a couple of previously certain Leavers had changed their mind to undecided, precisely because of the attack. It sobered them up, having been in their cups over the issues to a more clear-headed assessment of what the future would be like under Leave.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
I am afraid, sir, that you & your colleagues are misinterpreting the shot across the bows. If it has any relevance, it is a harbinger of what the future would be like under Remain.
If we vote Leave, there is a chance of dealing with this sort of ... infection?
If we vote Remain, it will be swept under the carpet and ignored. Perhaps a better analogy might be the way the fire at King's Cross started - out of sight, until too late.
So, let me get this right...if we vote leave, then that'll sort out the English hooligan problem, the EDL, the BNP, Farage's populism, bigotry, racist targeting of immigrants, the hateful Murdoch and Dacre press... a vote leave will sort all that out. I'm convinced......
To be honest, the hornets nest that has been kicked is going to cause a lot of people to be stung whether Leave or Remain. I would prefer not to have the kicker in charge afterwards.
Like you I am on Leave for betting purposes, but will be very happy to lose the bet. It would restore my faith in the great British public.
Comments
It reminds me of the treatment of the killer of Yitzhak Rabin who was killed by a right wing Jewish extremist. A terrible tragedy but it was commented on at the time that the treatment of his assailant who was immediately sent for psychiatric evaluation was very different to that which a Palestinian might have expected had he even survived to face trial.
True then. True now. No one is trying to persuade you tyson. Your mind is made up. Good for you. Happy voting!
I have bones broken in my face from skinhead attacks in the 70s. Skinheads disappeared when M.Thatcher brought in the Nationality Act.
The murder by someone against the EU (or immigration) was not unpredicted. Some have been saying for years that mass immigration will lead to violence, whether in the form of a Breivik or Lee Rigby type attack. It has been predicted for years, but was written off as racist. Ironic really that someone who suffered racist attacks gets called racist by white people.
Winchester: two Remain posters, one Leave poster. A couple of Quakers campaigning on the high street claiming William Penn wanted a European Parliament. Not much business. Saw a couple of rather introverted BSE campaigners in their 40s in a side-street not doing much at all, other than being glued to their iPhones. They then went to the pub, ordered a drink, and then resumed reading their iPhones. Otherwise, nothing on the referendum going on noticeably at all.
I was there with my folks. Aged 70/75. They, their friends, and everyone they know in their social circle is voting Leave. They live in rural North-West Hampshire.
Facebook: absolutely filled to brim with friends gunning full-on for Remain. No sign of exploitation the murder at all. But two or three usually rational, and level-headed people, becoming highly emotional about Remain. All work in London in professional services/finance.
I remember it well. I had a foreign wife and was working in Europe. Not much changed except the queue to show my passport got longer.
Take your time...
It came into existence with the signing of the Treaty on European Union (or Maastricht Treaty) which entered into force on 1st November 1993
Deep breath..
This isn't over yet. We have to have confidence that the British people will make the right decision for the right reason.
Keep your chin up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqagDHyOiBI
Ignoring the people seems common these days, like Brown signing the Lisbon Treaty.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes."
Brexiteers keep telling us there is no Leave manifesto (even though they published one). The Government will interpret the vote as they see fit, and most of them want Free Movement
- the people who bust the global financial system
- the people who bust the Eurozone
- the people who bust Britain taking it into the ERM
- the people who bust the Schengen consensus with the migrant crisis
- the people who bombed Baghdad
- the people who buggered the Labour Party
- the people who bombed Brighton and Bishopsgate
- the people who expected oil to be $110 a barrel
Billionaire manufacturers like Bamford and Dyson trump pen-pushing economic theorists with bad track records every day.
Digby Jones and John Longworth are Leave.
Minford, Bootle, Congdon, Lilico - some of the UK's most pre-eminent economists are for Leave.
Even the Dalai Lama thinks migration has gone too far;
http://qz.com/696703/the-dalai-lama-thinks-there-are-now-too-many-refugees-in-europe/
But most importantly of all, so are a vast number of ordinary folk. Somewhere between twenty and twenty five million people.
I will be bringing back the trollface emoji tomorrow with the reinstatement of the campaigns.
Brace yourselves.
Clever man Enoch. He saw the danger of Nazi Germany and knew there would be war. He resigned his position as Professor and travelled to England to be ready. He enlisted in the Army as a private, and ended a half colonel.
The murder of one person by another was a shot across the bow. The conversation is much less saloon bar, much more kitchen table. It has changed the tone rather than arguments.
I have had the most spectacular lunch today overlooking Florence and the Apennines.. Italy is just too beautiful. Italians live for food. They dream about food. And their food is based on simplicity and local ingredients. It is not fussy. I shared an 8 Euro bottle of house white today...I feel I have to start economising because of Brexit (as you will too as you fight negative equity and rising interest rates on your Primrose Hill Residence)...it was just fine. I wouldn't have noticed the difference with my usual choice.
I bet its still leave.
Those who want to vote Leave are not drunk, they've just reached a different conclusion to you. It's entirely possible for reasonable men to reach differing conclusions when presented with the same evidence. Indeed, that's the basis of democracy.
Anyways, in the 70s there seemed to be skinheads on every high street. I had to plan my route to avoid them.
After nationality act, everything changed. I would say that 1985-97 was a Goldern Era for race relations.
Not at all.
Remain: 44% (-)
Leave: 44% (+2)
(via Opinium, online / 14 - 17 Jun)
I guess it was one of the ways we amused ourselves before PC games came along.
I'm amazed they ever admitted to it to start with.
NickP has remarked in the past how many voters, even a majority, make their decision because of the general feel of a party. I think that is true here too.
Now leave me alone, as I'm writing the ComRes thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zh33WbZULE
Less charitably, people vote for stupid reasons all the time, all of us at one time or another, and that's democracy for you.
But really it says nothing I think.
Duh.
How much was your plate of pasta?
Leicestershire is classic Middle England swing territory, not just geographically. We are pretty much average income, age distribution, and only a bit higher BME (Leicester is very multicultural but 2/3 of the population is in the County).
If we vote Leave, there is a chance of dealing with this sort of ... infection?
If we vote Remain, it will be swept under the carpet and ignored. Perhaps a better analogy might be the way the fire at King's Cross started - out of sight, until too late.
Undecideds should vote Remain if they want a bit longer to think it over.
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/744225052569313280
Picked up another 1,500 leaflets for the next few days. Can't wait to deliver them all.
Like you I am on Leave for betting purposes, but will be very happy to lose the bet. It would restore my faith in the great British public.