Generally, British policy to European geo-politics has been to stop one particular country dominating the continent. Hence, stopping French expansion during Waterloo period, alliances running up to WW1 etc etc.
Is there a conceivable argument that Brexit would continue in that vein? Just at the point when we have a relatively stable European system and everyone's got used to Germany being the most powerful country, we pull out and bugger it up for them by unbalancing the continent and setting club-Med against them?
He wouldnt be able to under thebterms if the fixed term parliament act.
Did you read the article? There are ways round the FTPA.
Yes, by the Tories forcing through a vote of no confidence on themselves. Won't happen - it would turn them into a laughing stock and they'd be trounced at the polls.
Or they could pass a one clause Bill to amend section 1 (2) of the FTPA.
No chance of getting that through the Lords - certainly not quickly.
You think Labour would resist having an election? That would be suicide. And the Crossbenchers could be relied on not to resist democracy.
Labour would certainly resist any change to law, rightly emphasising that the British constitution shouldn't be f*cked about with merely to make it into a suitable vehicle for Boris's ambition.
They'd rather have a Tory PM than a general election?
Well, it's a view.
Erm, well if the consequence of a forced early election is a Labour win why would Boris do it in the first place?
Well he's not going to call an early GE, if he's 10 points behind Labour. This seems unlikely however.
He wouldnt be able to under thebterms if the fixed term parliament act.
Did you read the article? There are ways round the FTPA.
Yes, by the Tories forcing through a vote of no confidence on themselves. Won't happen - it would turn them into a laughing stock and they'd be trounced at the polls.
Or they could pass a one clause Bill to amend section 1 (2) of the FTPA.
No chance of getting that through the Lords - certainly not quickly.
You think Labour would resist having an election? That would be suicide. And the Crossbenchers could be relied on not to resist democracy.
Labour would certainly resist any change to law, rightly emphasising that the British constitution shouldn't be f*cked about with merely to make it into a suitable vehicle for Boris's ambition.
They'd rather have a Tory PM than a general election?
Well, it's a view.
Erm, well if the consequence of a forced early election is a Labour win why would Boris do it in the first place?
Obviously he'd only do it if he thought he could win, but he could well be wrong - Labour resisting the move would suggest they think he was right.
I am trying to download a piece of music (topical for the referendum next week ) and i have downloaded it from the App store and cannot set it as a ringtone for my 5S can anyone help??
Even my teenage son cant work it out!!
Many thanks
You have to do it via itunes - I never found a way to do it solely on the phone when I briefly had an iphone 4. Stuff that is insanely obvious & easy to do under android & windows phones is only doable via being infected with itunes on your pc/mac.
The observations, comments and insights provided on this site by Alastair, Cyclefree, TSE, David, Roger and others are so far ahead and so much more insightful than the superficial rubbish in the mainstream media as to be embarrassing. Whatever your viewpoint OGH has managed to present articulate pieces (and of course TSE's terrible puns) setting out relevant points and an intelligent context.
Thanks OGH, I really appreciate it. The referendum would not have been the same without it.
Thirded! Or Fourthed!
Another excellent article from CycleFree - where 'Muddling through' meets 'Le Grand Projet'.....
He wouldnt be able to under thebterms if the fixed term parliament act.
Did you read the article? There are ways round the FTPA.
Yes, by the Tories forcing through a vote of no confidence on themselves. Won't happen - it would turn them into a laughing stock and they'd be trounced at the polls.
Or they could pass a one clause Bill to amend section 1 (2) of the FTPA.
No chance of getting that through the Lords - certainly not quickly.
You think Labour would resist having an election? That would be suicide. And the Crossbenchers could be relied on not to resist democracy.
Labour would certainly resist any change to law, rightly emphasising that the British constitution shouldn't be f*cked about with merely to make it into a suitable vehicle for Boris's ambition.
They'd rather have a Tory PM than a general election?
Well, it's a view.
Erm, well if the consequence of a forced early election is a Labour win why would Boris do it in the first place?
Obviously he'd only do it if he thought he could win, but he could well be wrong - Labour resisting the move would suggest they think he was right.
Labour resisting the move is unthinkable. No opposition can ever reject a challenge for an early election.
The man charged with murdering the Labour MP Jo Cox gave his name as “death to traitors, freedom for Britain” during his first court appearance, where it emerged he allegedly claimed to be a “political activist” during his arrest.
I am trying to download a piece of music (topical for the referendum next week ) and i have downloaded it from the App store and cannot set it as a ringtone for my 5S can anyone help??
Even my teenage son cant work it out!!
Many thanks
You have to do it via itunes - I never found a way to do it solely on the phone when I briefly had an iphone 4. Stuff that is insanely obvious & easy to do under android & windows phones is only doable via being infected with itunes on your pc/mac.
He wouldnt be able to under thebterms if the fixed term parliament act.
Did you read the article? There are ways round the FTPA.
Yes, by the Tories forcing through a vote of no confidence on themselves. Won't happen - it would turn them into a laughing stock and they'd be trounced at the polls.
Or they could pass a one clause Bill to amend section 1 (2) of the FTPA.
No chance of getting that through the Lords - certainly not quickly.
You think Labour would resist having an election? That would be suicide. And the Crossbenchers could be relied on not to resist democracy.
Labour would certainly resist any change to law, rightly emphasising that the British constitution shouldn't be f*cked about with merely to make it into a suitable vehicle for Boris's ambition.
They'd rather have a Tory PM than a general election?
Well, it's a view.
Not actually an unusual one. At the time of initial Corbynmania the view was expressed by some that they wouldn't mind Labour not winning if they if one of the others won the leadership, meaning presumably for some people non-Corbynite Labour is worse than a Tory government.
Which isn't even an unreasonable view to hold I suppose, but it makes it weird when the same people might profess how evil Tories are at the same time, since one would think if you are that partisan you'd think an imperfect Labour PM would be better than a Tory one.
This vote has made me realise that I wouldn't be that bothered if Osborne won the party's leadership and became the next PM, something that I would never expected to have said. This vote is like losing into the abyss of right wing politics.....Osborne ain't that bad.
I can't help but think that Leave have lost this referendum now. Every day there's going to be new information about how the murderer is a Brexit supporter - that much became clear today. What's worse, he's appearing again in the Old Bailey on Monday, which will give him more opportunities to spew his bile, and this will completely dominate the headlines.
I can't see how media coverage of a Brexit supporting murderer is going to do anything other than destroy support for Leave. For people like me, who care deeply about restoring democratic legitimacy to our institutions, it's an absolute nightmare. What's worse is that before this tragic murder there was, I think, a glimmer of hope that we might just pull off something spectacular. Now, for me at least, that hope has completely evaporated.
So, against all the odds, British foreign policy for the next 40 years could be decided by a crazed lunatic. It's a funny old world.
Generally, British policy to European geo-politics has been to stop one particular country dominating the continent. Hence, stopping French expansion during Waterloo period, alliances running up to WW1 etc etc.
Is there a conceivable argument that Brexit would continue in that vein? Just at the point when we have a relatively stable European system and everyone's got used to Germany being the most powerful country, we pull out and bugger it up for them by unbalancing the continent and setting club-Med against them?
I think that's quite an attractive argument william.
I honestly thought Cameron would get more, as it's so manifestly in Germany's interest to keep us in. I belatedly realised that Mutti was more of an idealist than I'd appreciated, possibly because of her East German roots.
I do have scenarios where Brexit proves to be useful to Germany in the medium term, but I appreciate we think differently on this topic, and it's tedious to have someone evangelizing at you when your mind is made up .
Generally, British policy to European geo-politics has been to stop one particular country dominating the continent. Hence, stopping French expansion during Waterloo period, alliances running up to WW1 etc etc.
Is there a conceivable argument that Brexit would continue in that vein? Just at the point when we have a relatively stable European system and everyone's got used to Germany being the most powerful country, we pull out and bugger it up for them by unbalancing the continent and setting club-Med against them?
The reality is that the continental balance is between Germany and Russia and always will be. Britain was and has more interests in the Indian Ocean than in the Urals.
He wouldnt be able to under thebterms if the fixed term parliament act.
Did you read the article? There are ways round the FTPA.
Yes, by the Tories forcing through a vote of no confidence on themselves. Won't happen - it would turn them into a laughing stock and they'd be trounced at the polls.
Or they could pass a one clause Bill to amend section 1 (2) of the FTPA.
No chance of getting that through the Lords - certainly not quickly.
You think Labour would resist having an election? That would be suicide. And the Crossbenchers could be relied on not to resist democracy.
Labour would certainly resist any change to law, rightly emphasising that the British constitution shouldn't be f*cked about with merely to make it into a suitable vehicle for Boris's ambition.
They'd rather have a Tory PM than a general election?
Well, it's a view.
Not actually an unusual one. At the time of initial Corbynmania the view was expressed by some that they wouldn't mind Labour not winning if they if one of the others won the leadership, meaning presumably for some people non-Corbynite Labour is worse than a Tory government.
Which isn't even an unreasonable view to hold I suppose, but it makes it weird when the same people might profess how evil Tories are at the same time, since one would think if you are that partisan you'd think an imperfect Labour PM would be better than a Tory one.
I suspect, if you are that partisan, an imperfect Labour PM is a Tory one.
That said, although my views on the margin has changed, I've always thought Remain would win, so feel a bit less anxious about the potential impact of the black swan.
I can't help but think that Leave have lost this referendum now. Every day there's going to be new information about how the murderer is a Brexit supporter - that much became clear today. What's worse, he's appearing again in the Old Bailey on Monday, which will give him more opportunities to spew his bile, and this will completely dominate the headlines.
I can't see how media coverage of a Brexit supporting murderer is going to do anything other than destroy support for Leave. For people like me, who care deeply about restoring democratic legitimacy to our institutions, it's an absolute nightmare. What's worse is that before this tragic murder there was, I think, a glimmer of hope that we might just pull off something spectacular. Now, for me at least, that hope has completely evaporated.
So, against all the odds, British foreign policy for the next 40 years could be decided by a crazed lunatic. It's a funny old world.
Stiff upper lip, old Internetian. Polls out tonight will tell us what we need to know.
I can't help but think that Leave have lost this referendum now. Every day there's going to be new information about how the murderer is a Brexit supporter - that much became clear today. What's worse, he's appearing again in the Old Bailey on Monday, which will give him more opportunities to spew his bile, and this will completely dominate the headlines.
I can't see how media coverage of a Brexit supporting murderer is going to do anything other than destroy support for Leave. For people like me, who care deeply about restoring democratic legitimacy to our institutions, it's an absolute nightmare. What's worse is that before this tragic murder there was, I think, a glimmer of hope that we might just pull off something spectacular. Now, for me at least, that hope has completely evaporated.
So, against all the odds, British foreign policy for the next 40 years could be decided by a crazed lunatic. It's a funny old world.
He's been charged. Only factual information can be dispensed by the media. Lurid speculation would be contempt of court.
Extraordinary. We are surely better out of a future Europe if it's going to go more and more socialist.
Leaving Europe to escape socialism might not work out as planned. The main party of opposition is led by Marxists and as highlighted on the last thread, there are plenty of native Brits happy to chant about chucking the Tories in the sea.
Indeed - another of the post-Brexit fantasies on here is the perpetual right of centre government we're gonna get. I'd expect a Labour majority by 2020 once the Corbyn madness is gone and maybe even if it hasn't.
We have to accept that one day, we'll have a left wing government.
Precisely
Which is why I can't understand Cameron avoiding HoL reform
It's going to happen
He could recast it in his, own image and put the issue to bed for fifty years
It costs nothing and might just be a legacy for the history books
He wouldnt be able to under thebterms if the fixed term parliament act.
Did you read the article? There are ways round the FTPA.
Yes, by the Tories forcing through a vote of no confidence on themselves. Won't happen - it would turn them into a laughing stock and they'd be trounced at the polls.
Or they could pass a one clause Bill to amend section 1 (2) of the FTPA.
No chance of getting that through the Lords - certainly not quickly.
You think Labour would resist having an election? That would be suicide. And the Crossbenchers could be relied on not to resist democracy.
Labour would certainly resist any change to law, rightly emphasising that the British constitution shouldn't be f*cked about with merely to make it into a suitable vehicle for Boris's ambition.
They'd rather have a Tory PM than a general election?
Well, it's a view.
Not actually an unusual one. At the time of initial Corbynmania the view was expressed by some that they wouldn't mind Labour not winning if they if one of the others won the leadership, meaning presumably for some people non-Corbynite Labour is worse than a Tory government.
Which isn't even an unreasonable view to hold I suppose, but it makes it weird when the same people might profess how evil Tories are at the same time, since one would think if you are that partisan you'd think an imperfect Labour PM would be better than a Tory one.
This vote has made me realise that I wouldn't be that bothered if Osborne won the party's leadership and became the next PM, something that I would never expected to have said. This vote is like losing into the abyss of right wing politics.....Osborne ain't that bad.
Wow!
I know there's no realignment of politics coming despite the fevered dreams of some, but with the visceral hatred of Cameron and Osborne from many Tories combined with some on the centre left who still cannot stomach Corbyn and might be thinking given what might follow Cameron and Osborne are not so bad (comparatively), it really wouldn't be a bad idea.
I can't help but think that Leave have lost this referendum now. Every day there's going to be new information about how the murderer is a Brexit supporter - that much became clear today. What's worse, he's appearing again in the Old Bailey on Monday, which will give him more opportunities to spew his bile, and this will completely dominate the headlines.
I can't see how media coverage of a Brexit supporting murderer is going to do anything other than destroy support for Leave. For people like me, who care deeply about restoring democratic legitimacy to our institutions, it's an absolute nightmare. What's worse is that before this tragic murder there was, I think, a glimmer of hope that we might just pull off something spectacular. Now, for me at least, that hope has completely evaporated.
So, against all the odds, British foreign policy for the next 40 years could be decided by a crazed lunatic. It's a funny old world.
He's been charged. Only factual information can be dispensed by the media. Lurid speculation would be contempt of court.
As it will be on social media. Sorry to be prissy, but people need to lay off this subject IMHO.
I can't help but think that Leave have lost this referendum now. Every day there's going to be new information about how the murderer is a Brexit supporter - that much became clear today. What's worse, he's appearing again in the Old Bailey on Monday, which will give him more opportunities to spew his bile, and this will completely dominate the headlines.
I can't see how media coverage of a Brexit supporting murderer is going to do anything other than destroy support for Leave. For people like me, who care deeply about restoring democratic legitimacy to our institutions, it's an absolute nightmare. What's worse is that before this tragic murder there was, I think, a glimmer of hope that we might just pull off something spectacular. Now, for me at least, that hope has completely evaporated.
So, against all the odds, British foreign policy for the next 40 years could be decided by a crazed lunatic. It's a funny old world.
He's been charged. Only factual information can be dispensed by the media. Lurid speculation would be contempt of court.
Mair also allegedly said “this is for Britain” and “keep Britain independent” as he stabbed and shot the MP for Batley and Spen, prosecutors said both in court and in their printed outline of the case......
According to the prosecution’s summary, Mair said a variation of “Britain first”, “Keep Britain independent”, “Britain always comes first”, and “This is for Britain” as he launched the attack on Cox, who was killed on the way to her constituency surgery in Birstall on Thursday.
Extraordinary. We are surely better out of a future Europe if it's going to go more and more socialist.
Leaving Europe to escape socialism might not work out as planned. The main party of opposition is led by Marxists and as highlighted on the last thread, there are plenty of native Brits happy to chant about chucking the Tories in the sea.
Indeed - another of the post-Brexit fantasies on here is the perpetual right of centre government we're gonna get. I'd expect a Labour majority by 2020 once the Corbyn madness is gone and maybe even if it hasn't.
We have to accept that one day, we'll have a left wing government.
Precisely
Which is why I can't understand Cameron avoiding HoL reform
It's going to happen
He could recast it in his, own image and put the issue to bed for fifty years
It costs nothing and might just be a legacy for the history books
Lack of courage
Yes it is, although the 'costs nothing' I think is wrong. He's just not been up for takingon the cost.
A good header cyclefree. I've just read it twice and the simple message I hadn't really distilled from all the EU noise is that after 46 years it REALLY is the only show in town. Walking away isn't an option. We ARE the EU and the EU are us. We've got a 46 year history. We're far too set in our ways to think about divorce.
I was reminded when reading it of a card a friend showed me at their divorce party. It was a cartoon of a man walking into a supermarket and asking the shop assistant if she could direct him to the toast counter.
I am trying to download a piece of music (topical for the referendum next week ) and i have downloaded it from the App store and cannot set it as a ringtone for my 5S can anyone help??
Even my teenage son cant work it out!!
Many thanks
You have to do it via itunes - I never found a way to do it solely on the phone when I briefly had an iphone 4. Stuff that is insanely obvious & easy to do under android & windows phones is only doable via being infected with itunes on your pc/mac.
Thank you I have tried that and for some reason it wont recognise the bloody tune !!
The man charged with murdering the Labour MP Jo Cox gave his name as “death to traitors, freedom for Britain” during his first court appearance, where it emerged he allegedly claimed to be a “political activist” during his arrest.
This is a terrible narrative for the Brexit campaign. You couldn't have made it up how damaging this deranged lunatic could be for their cause. And he couldn't have selected someone who generates the kind of public sympathy someone like Jo Cox creates.
I can't help but think though that this poor woman, who was so brutally and horribly murdered, beforehand had to contend with the kind of vile, right wing abuse she was subjected to in the preceding weeks...so much so that she went to the Police. She is a young mother who supported asylum seekers and she was subjected to horrible hate crimes before she was murdered by a lunatic drawn to this nationalistic nihilism in his madness.
But as I have said, you make your bed with the English hooligans, the EDL, the BNP, UKIP, Farage, Murdoch, the Daily Mail, Dacre, The Sun, The Express, Le Pen....you make your bed with unpleasant types.
Extraordinary. We are surely better out of a future Europe if it's going to go more and more socialist.
Leaving Europe to escape socialism might not work out as planned. The main party of opposition is led by Marxists and as highlighted on the last thread, there are plenty of native Brits happy to chant about chucking the Tories in the sea.
Indeed - another of the post-Brexit fantasies on here is the perpetual right of centre government we're gonna get. I'd expect a Labour majority by 2020 once the Corbyn madness is gone and maybe even if it hasn't.
We have to accept that one day, we'll have a left wing government.
Precisely
Which is why I can't understand Cameron avoiding HoL reform
It's going to happen
He could recast it in his, own image and put the issue to bed for fifty years
It costs nothing and might just be a legacy for the history books
Lack of courage
Yes it is, although the 'costs nothing' I think is wrong. He's just not been up for takingon the cost.
On the scale of things where we can piss nine million away on a I leaflet it's nothing
Except perhaps for some political capital which Cameron has been throwing around him like 1920s reichmarks
He wouldnt be able to under thebterms if the fixed term parliament act.
Did you read the article? There are ways round the FTPA.
Yes, by the Tories forcing through a vote of no confidence on themselves. Won't happen - it would turn them into a laughing stock and they'd be trounced at the polls.
Or they could pass a one clause Bill to amend section 1 (2) of the FTPA.
No chance of getting that through the Lords - certainly not quickly.
You think Labour would resist having an election? That would be suicide. And the Crossbenchers could be relied on not to resist democracy.
Labour would certainly resist any change to law, rightly emphasising that the British constitution shouldn't be f*cked about with merely to make it into a suitable vehicle for Boris's ambition.
They'd rather have a Tory PM than a general election?
Well, it's a view.
Erm, well if the consequence of a forced early election is a Labour win why would Boris do it in the first place?
Obviously he'd only do it if he thought he could win, but he could well be wrong - Labour resisting the move would suggest they think he was right.
Labour resisting the move is unthinkable. No opposition can ever reject a challenge for an early election.
FTPA works during hung parliaments.
If they thought they were going to lose they'd find a way. It would actually be quite easy in this case: just say, 'this whole farce is clearly an exercise in Boris's vanity, and is intended as a distraction because he doesn't know what the hell he's doing post-Brexit. Just get on with governing, Tories, as you were elected to do only last year.'
I can't help but think that Leave have lost this referendum now. Every day there's going to be new information about how the murderer is a Brexit supporter - that much became clear today. What's worse, he's appearing again in the Old Bailey on Monday, which will give him more opportunities to spew his bile, and this will completely dominate the headlines.
I can't see how media coverage of a Brexit supporting murderer is going to do anything other than destroy support for Leave. For people like me, who care deeply about restoring democratic legitimacy to our institutions, it's an absolute nightmare. What's worse is that before this tragic murder there was, I think, a glimmer of hope that we might just pull off something spectacular. Now, for me at least, that hope has completely evaporated.
So, against all the odds, British foreign policy for the next 40 years could be decided by a crazed lunatic. It's a funny old world.
He's been charged. Only factual information can be dispensed by the media. Lurid speculation would be contempt of court.
Mair also allegedly said “this is for Britain” and “keep Britain independent” as he stabbed and shot the MP for Batley and Spen, prosecutors said both in court and in their printed outline of the case......
According to the prosecution’s summary, Mair said a variation of “Britain first”, “Keep Britain independent”, “Britain always comes first”, and “This is for Britain” as he launched the attack on Cox, who was killed on the way to her constituency surgery in Birstall on Thursday.
@DAaronovitch: Yesterday several biggie social media Brexiteers were retweeting fatuous & premature suggestions that Jo Cox’s killer hadn’t shouted… (1)
@DAaronovitch: ….nationalist slogans. The man who claimed it had ‘recanted’ they said. Now it’s become clear what happened THEY might like to recant .
Maybe posters who said the killing of a politician was "not about politics" might also review their position?
@DAaronovitch: Yesterday several biggie social media Brexiteers were retweeting fatuous & premature suggestions that Jo Cox’s killer hadn’t shouted… (1)
@DAaronovitch: ….nationalist slogans. The man who claimed it had ‘recanted’ they said. Now it’s become clear what happened THEY might like to recant .
Maybe posters who said the killing of a politician was "not about politics" might also review their position?
Honestly Scott, you have the field. I'm not saying a peep about Mr Mair.
I can't help but think that Leave have lost this referendum now. Every day there's going to be new information about how the murderer is a Brexit supporter - that much became clear today. What's worse, he's appearing again in the Old Bailey on Monday, which will give him more opportunities to spew his bile, and this will completely dominate the headlines.
I can't see how media coverage of a Brexit supporting murderer is going to do anything other than destroy support for Leave. For people like me, who care deeply about restoring democratic legitimacy to our institutions, it's an absolute nightmare. What's worse is that before this tragic murder there was, I think, a glimmer of hope that we might just pull off something spectacular. Now, for me at least, that hope has completely evaporated.
So, against all the odds, British foreign policy for the next 40 years could be decided by a crazed lunatic. It's a funny old world.
He's been charged. Only factual information can be dispensed by the media. Lurid speculation would be contempt of court.
Mair also allegedly said “this is for Britain” and “keep Britain independent” as he stabbed and shot the MP for Batley and Spen, prosecutors said both in court and in their printed outline of the case......
According to the prosecution’s summary, Mair said a variation of “Britain first”, “Keep Britain independent”, “Britain always comes first”, and “This is for Britain” as he launched the attack on Cox, who was killed on the way to her constituency surgery in Birstall on Thursday.
@DAaronovitch: Yesterday several biggie social media Brexiteers were retweeting fatuous & premature suggestions that Jo Cox’s killer hadn’t shouted… (1)
@DAaronovitch: ….nationalist slogans. The man who claimed it had ‘recanted’ they said. Now it’s become clear what happened THEY might like to recant .
Maybe posters who said the killing of a politician was "not about politics" might also review their position?
To be honest I think both sides are as bad as each other. Irrespective of what the motives of the killer were, that some people were so keen to jump on the bandwagon so quickly is very revealing. Don't worry, I think the same of those that can't wait to point the finger at Islamic terrorists.
I can't help but think that Leave have lost this referendum now. Every day there's going to be new information about how the murderer is a Brexit supporter - that much became clear today. What's worse, he's appearing again in the Old Bailey on Monday, which will give him more opportunities to spew his bile, and this will completely dominate the headlines.
I can't see how media coverage of a Brexit supporting murderer is going to do anything other than destroy support for Leave. For people like me, who care deeply about restoring democratic legitimacy to our institutions, it's an absolute nightmare. What's worse is that before this tragic murder there was, I think, a glimmer of hope that we might just pull off something spectacular. Now, for me at least, that hope has completely evaporated.
So, against all the odds, British foreign policy for the next 40 years could be decided by a crazed lunatic. It's a funny old world.
He's been charged. Only factual information can be dispensed by the media. Lurid speculation would be contempt of court.
Mair also allegedly said “this is for Britain” and “keep Britain independent” as he stabbed and shot the MP for Batley and Spen, prosecutors said both in court and in their printed outline of the case......
According to the prosecution’s summary, Mair said a variation of “Britain first”, “Keep Britain independent”, “Britain always comes first”, and “This is for Britain” as he launched the attack on Cox, who was killed on the way to her constituency surgery in Birstall on Thursday.
Meh. Sad. My initial instinctive reaction was right. This destroys LEAVE's lead, and will shunt REMAIN over the line. What an awful way to decide. Just the worst.
Even my missus who's sort of pro remain doesn't blame leave, this is political bubble stuff
I think it's shows just quite how desperate remain are
They need to scrape the barrel in the next five days
The suspension of campaigning helps remain who were getting pummelled on the ropes but Leave also gained in a few places
The focus went out of farages poster, IDS missed getting dissected by Andrew Neil and a weekend break of economic scaremongering has been lost in the press
Still favourable to remain but some lucky escapes for leave
@DAaronovitch: Yesterday several biggie social media Brexiteers were retweeting fatuous & premature suggestions that Jo Cox’s killer hadn’t shouted… (1)
@DAaronovitch: ….nationalist slogans. The man who claimed it had ‘recanted’ they said. Now it’s become clear what happened THEY might like to recant .
Maybe posters who said the killing of a politician was "not about politics" might also review their position?
Dan Hodges: It's fascinating the way many Leave supporters automatically view criticism of the far-right as criticism of them. And instructive.
Mr. P, if that's the line, should ISIS/Daesh and Al-Qaeda be said to be caused by Islam?
You can't cherrypick. Either fringe extremists believe a perverted corruption of an ideology (the line taken for Islamist extremists) or they're caused by a mainstream perspective (the view some are applying to this man, who may be mentally ill).
The football hooligan analogy is the best. They're not indicative of a standard football fan, and normal football fans can't be held accountable for the behaviour of a few delinquents.
Mr. Tyson, the Daily Mail and Sun have millions of readers. Preferring a particular newspaper doesn't place in the same moral grouping as a murderer.
I can't help but think that Leave have lost this referendum now. Every day there's going to be new information about how the murderer is a Brexit supporter - that much became clear today. What's worse, he's appearing again in the Old Bailey on Monday, which will give him more opportunities to spew his bile, and this will completely dominate the headlines.
I can't see how media coverage of a Brexit supporting murderer is going to do anything other than destroy support for Leave. For people like me, who care deeply about restoring democratic legitimacy to our institutions, it's an absolute nightmare. What's worse is that before this tragic murder there was, I think, a glimmer of hope that we might just pull off something spectacular. Now, for me at least, that hope has completely evaporated.
So, against all the odds, British foreign policy for the next 40 years could be decided by a crazed lunatic. It's a funny old world.
He's been charged. Only factual information can be dispensed by the media. Lurid speculation would be contempt of court.
Mair also allegedly said “this is for Britain” and “keep Britain independent” as he stabbed and shot the MP for Batley and Spen, prosecutors said both in court and in their printed outline of the case......
According to the prosecution’s summary, Mair said a variation of “Britain first”, “Keep Britain independent”, “Britain always comes first”, and “This is for Britain” as he launched the attack on Cox, who was killed on the way to her constituency surgery in Birstall on Thursday.
Meh. Sad. My initial instinctive reaction was right. This destroys LEAVE's lead, and will shunt REMAIN over the line. What an awful way to decide. Just the worst.
Yeah, I fear you're right. What's worse is it won't resolve anything. What a horrible way for Remain to win.
@DAaronovitch: Yesterday several biggie social media Brexiteers were retweeting fatuous & premature suggestions that Jo Cox’s killer hadn’t shouted… (1)
@DAaronovitch: ….nationalist slogans. The man who claimed it had ‘recanted’ they said. Now it’s become clear what happened THEY might like to recant .
Maybe posters who said the killing of a politician was "not about politics" might also review their position?
No-one gives a shit. Gow was blown up by the IRA. It didn't make anyone 'rally round the Tories.'
I can't help but think that Leave have lost this referendum now. Every day there's going to be new information about how the murderer is a Brexit supporter - that much became clear today. What's worse, he's appearing again in the Old Bailey on Monday, which will give him more opportunities to spew his bile, and this will completely dominate the headlines.
I can't see how media coverage of a Brexit supporting murderer is going to do anything other than destroy support for Leave. For people like me, who care deeply about restoring democratic legitimacy to our institutions, it's an absolute nightmare. What's worse is that before this tragic murder there was, I think, a glimmer of hope that we might just pull off something spectacular. Now, for me at least, that hope has completely evaporated.
So, against all the odds, British foreign policy for the next 40 years could be decided by a crazed lunatic. It's a funny old world.
He's been charged. Only factual information can be dispensed by the media. Lurid speculation would be contempt of court.
Mair also allegedly said “this is for Britain” and “keep Britain independent” as he stabbed and shot the MP for Batley and Spen, prosecutors said both in court and in their printed outline of the case......
According to the prosecution’s summary, Mair said a variation of “Britain first”, “Keep Britain independent”, “Britain always comes first”, and “This is for Britain” as he launched the attack on Cox, who was killed on the way to her constituency surgery in Birstall on Thursday.
This vote has made me realise that I wouldn't be that bothered if Osborne won the party's leadership and became the next PM, something that I would never expected to have said. This vote is like losing into the abyss of right wing politics.....Osborne ain't that bad.
Wow!
I know there's no realignment of politics coming despite the fevered dreams of some, but with the visceral hatred of Cameron and Osborne from many Tories combined with some on the centre left who still cannot stomach Corbyn and might be thinking given what might follow Cameron and Osborne are not so bad (comparatively), it really wouldn't be a bad idea.
Over the past years I've posted some horrible, vicious stuff against Cameron and particularly Osborne. I've always taken the view that although it is not right to make personal attacks on fellow posters, public figures are fair game. In light of Jo Cox, my behaviour is regrettable, and I have to temper this in the future.
Nick Palmer emailed privately after the Labour defeat of 2015- something that cost him more than most. He said....the Tories are not so bad, and the UK is still a tolerant country to live in. I hope he doesn't mind me betraying his confidence- Nick is a generous spirit.
The grit in the ointment is the final paragraph of the article written by Marina Hyde and posted earlier by Carlotta. It explains why, despite all the arguments put forward by cyclefree and others there really is only one choice
"There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?"
I can't help but think that Leave have lost this referendum now. Every day there's going to be new information about how the murderer is a Brexit supporter - that much became clear today. What's worse, he's appearing again in the Old Bailey on Monday, which will give him more opportunities to spew his bile, and this will completely dominate the headlines.
I can't see how media coverage of a Brexit supporting murderer is going to do anything other than destroy support for Leave. For people like me, who care deeply about restoring democratic legitimacy to our institutions, it's an absolute nightmare. What's worse is that before this tragic murder there was, I think, a glimmer of hope that we might just pull off something spectacular. Now, for me at least, that hope has completely evaporated.
So, against all the odds, British foreign policy for the next 40 years could be decided by a crazed lunatic. It's a funny old world.
He's been charged. Only factual information can be dispensed by the media. Lurid speculation would be contempt of court.
Mair also allegedly said “this is for Britain” and “keep Britain independent” as he stabbed and shot the MP for Batley and Spen, prosecutors said both in court and in their printed outline of the case......
According to the prosecution’s summary, Mair said a variation of “Britain first”, “Keep Britain independent”, “Britain always comes first”, and “This is for Britain” as he launched the attack on Cox, who was killed on the way to her constituency surgery in Birstall on Thursday.
@DAaronovitch: Yesterday several biggie social media Brexiteers were retweeting fatuous & premature suggestions that Jo Cox’s killer hadn’t shouted… (1)
@DAaronovitch: ….nationalist slogans. The man who claimed it had ‘recanted’ they said. Now it’s become clear what happened THEY might like to recant .
Maybe posters who said the killing of a politician was "not about politics" might also review their position?
Dan Hodges: It's fascinating the way many Leave supporters automatically view criticism of the far-right as criticism of them. And instructive.
Nah it's fascinating that many leavers automatically view spin doctors trying to link them to the far right as instructive
Mr. T, Mark Twain had a good line about fiction, which was that reality was stranger, because fiction had to make sense.
It's debatable whether Islam would've lasted a century if Emperor Maurice had bought his soldiers new footwear.
He didn't, being a penny-pincher, and they rebelled. This led to Flavius Phocas becoming emperor and war with Persia (the Persian ruler, Chosroes, was a personal friend of Maurice, who had protected him, and took the opportunity to invade the Eastern Roman Empire). Phocas was deposed by Heraclius, who managed to best Chosroes before illness laid him low, at which point Islam rolled up and found two exhausted empires ripe for a good kicking.
But if you write a story where the purchase of shoes, or lack thereof, caused an empire to fall you might well be laughed at.
I am shown three doors. Behind one is a mentally ill murderer shouting a phrase that is used to smear millions of others he has a tenuous link with for political advantage, behind the other two are murderers shouting a phrase that is not ok to smear millions of others with for political advantage
I open door one. The host opens door three to reveal Michael Adebolajo beheading Lee Rigby shouting "Allahu Akbar"
I can't help but think that Leave have lost this referendum now. Every day there's going to be new information about how the murderer is a Brexit supporter - that much became clear today. What's worse, he's appearing again in the Old Bailey on Monday, which will give him more opportunities to spew his bile, and this will completely dominate the headlines.
I can't see how media coverage of a Brexit supporting murderer is going to do anything other than destroy support for Leave. For people like me, who care deeply about restoring democratic legitimacy to our institutions, it's an absolute nightmare. What's worse is that before this tragic murder there was, I think, a glimmer of hope that we might just pull off something spectacular. Now, for me at least, that hope has completely evaporated.
So, against all the odds, British foreign policy for the next 40 years could be decided by a crazed lunatic. It's a funny old world.
He's been charged. Only factual information can be dispensed by the media. Lurid speculation would be contempt of court.
Mair also allegedly said “this is for Britain” and “keep Britain independent” as he stabbed and shot the MP for Batley and Spen, prosecutors said both in court and in their printed outline of the case......
According to the prosecution’s summary, Mair said a variation of “Britain first”, “Keep Britain independent”, “Britain always comes first”, and “This is for Britain” as he launched the attack on Cox, who was killed on the way to her constituency surgery in Birstall on Thursday.
Over the past years I've posted some horrible, vicious stuff against Cameron and particularly Osborne. I've always taken the view that although it is not right to make personal attacks on fellow posters, public figures are fair game. In light of Jo Cox, my behaviour is regrettable, and I have to temper this in the future.
Nick Palmer emailed privately after the Labour defeat of 2015- something that cost him more than most. He said....the Tories are not so bad, and the UK is still a tolerant country to live in. I hope he doesn't mind me betraying his confidence- Nick is a generous spirit.
The grit in the ointment is the final paragraph of the article written by Marina Hyde and posted earlier by Carlotta. It explains why, despite all the arguments put forward by cyclefree and others there really is only one choice
"There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?"
Using that logic, is a vote for Remain is a vote for the IRA, anti-semites and ISIS apologists?
I can't help but think that Leave have lost this referendum now. Every day there's going to be new information about how the murderer is a Brexit supporter - that much became clear today. What's worse, he's appearing again in the Old Bailey on Monday, which will give him more opportunities to spew his bile, and this will completely dominate the headlines.
I can't see how media coverage of a Brexit supporting murderer is going to do anything other than destroy support for Leave. For people like me, who care deeply about restoring democratic legitimacy to our institutions, it's an absolute nightmare. What's worse is that before this tragic murder there was, I think, a glimmer of hope that we might just pull off something spectacular. Now, for me at least, that hope has completely evaporated.
So, against all the odds, British foreign policy for the next 40 years could be decided by a crazed lunatic. It's a funny old world.
He's been charged. Only factual information can be dispensed by the media. Lurid speculation would be contempt of court.
Mair also allegedly said “this is for Britain” and “keep Britain independent” as he stabbed and shot the MP for Batley and Spen, prosecutors said both in court and in their printed outline of the case......
According to the prosecution’s summary, Mair said a variation of “Britain first”, “Keep Britain independent”, “Britain always comes first”, and “This is for Britain” as he launched the attack on Cox, who was killed on the way to her constituency surgery in Birstall on Thursday.
Meh. Sad. My initial instinctive reaction was right. This destroys LEAVE's lead, and will shunt REMAIN over the line. What an awful way to decide. Just the worst.
Even my missus who's sort of pro remain doesn't blame leave, this is political bubble stuff
Things from the bubble do filter through to other people. Leave don't need to be blamed to suffer a hit from this, though I maintain if there is one, if, it will not be obvious or large, and I seriously doubt it will be the deciding factor should Remain improbably squeak a win, though it will undoubtedly be taken so.
As a thriller writer, if I presented Mair to my editor as a plot device, she'd laugh in my face and tell me stop being so cliched, far fetched and unbelievable. She'd also say the plot twist was far too neat and convenient
I'll be cliched....but the truth is stranger than fiction. My wife still cannot believe my family history which just seems utterly preposterous.
Are you venturing into Tuscany on your Italian odyssey?
I can't help but think that Leave have lost this referendum now. Every day there's going to be new information about how the murderer is a Brexit supporter - that much s completely evaporated.
So, against all the odds, British foreign policy for the next 40 years could be decided by a crazed lunatic. It's a funny old world.
He's been charged. Only factual information can be dispensed by the media. Lurid speculation would be contempt of court.
Mair also allegedly said “this is for Britainmes first”, and “This is for Britain” as he launched the attack on Cox, who was killed on the way to her constituency surgery in Birstall on Thursday.
Meh. Sad. My initial instinctive reaction was right. This destroys LEAVE's lead, and will shunt REMAIN over the line. What an awful way to decide. Just the worst.
Even my missus who's sort of pro remain doesn't blame leave, this is political bubble stuff
I think it's
They need to scrape the barrel in the next five days
The suspension of campaigning helps remain who were getting pummelled on the ropes but Leave also gained in a few places
The focus went out of farages poster, IDS missed getting dissected by Andrew Neil and a weekend break of economic scaremongering has been lost in the press
Still favourable to remain but some lucky escapes for leave
Sadly I think you're wrong. This will give REMAIN their crucial 3-5%.
Mair is like the villain from central casting for REMAIN's purposes. He's just uncannily perfect. The dramatic timing is sublime. A week before the vote.
Sorry, I know we are talking about an awful, awful murder, but it is the case.
White BNP-ish loner brutally slaughters pretty young-ish Blairite REMAINIAN lady MP with two small kids, while shouting Brexiteer slogans. Then when he gets to court he continues ranting about British independence. I'm surprised he wasn't wearing a Nigel Farage tee-shirt during the crime.
BTW I do not think this is some nutter conspiracy. I'm just impressed by the ability of real life to outdo any scriptwriter.
Well only time will tell
In all events the murder has muddied the waters, the myth will be out there that leave had won
As I have said consistently for Cameron the means of a victory was as important as the victory itself and on that first count he has failed and the problem will just get bigger
I can't help but think that Leave have lost this referendum now. Every day there's going to be new information about how the murderer is a Brexit supporter - that much became clear today. What's worse, he's appearing again in the Old Bailey on Monday, which will give him more opportunities to spew his bile, and this will completely dominate the headlines.
I can't see how media coverage of a Brexit supporting murderer is going to do anything other than destroy support for Leave. For people like me, who care deeply about restoring democratic legitimacy to our institutions, it's an absolute nightmare. What's worse is that before this tragic murder there was, I think, a glimmer of hope that we might just pull off something spectacular. Now, for me at least, that hope has completely evaporated.
So, against all the odds, British foreign policy for the next 40 years could be decided by a crazed lunatic. It's a funny old world.
He's been charged. Only factual information can be dispensed by the media. Lurid speculation would be contempt of court.
Mair also allegedly said “this is for Britain” and “keep Britain independent” as he stabbed and shot the MP for Batley and Spen, prosecutors said both in court and in their printed outline of the case......
According to the prosecution’s summary, Mair said a variation of “Britain first”, “Keep Britain independent”, “Britain always comes first”, and “This is for Britain” as he launched the attack on Cox, who was killed on the way to her constituency surgery in Birstall on Thursday.
Right so you're now trolling a man who is seriously disturbed mentally
Classy
Is it trolling to reproduce quotes from an article? That strikes me as up there with Corbyn being smeared by reproductions of statements he made on camera.
I can't help but think that Leave have lost this referendum now. Every day there's going to be new information about how the murderer is a Brexit supporter - that much s completely evaporated.
So, against all the odds, British foreign policy for the next 40 years could be decided by a crazed lunatic. It's a funny old world.
He's been charged. Only factual information can be dispensed by the media. Lurid speculation would be contempt of court.
Meh. Sad. My initial instinctive reaction was right. This destroys LEAVE's lead, and will shunt REMAIN over the line. What an awful way to decide. Just the worst.
Even
Sadly I think you're wrong. This will give REMAIN their crucial 3-5%.
Mair is like the villain from central casting for REMAIN's purposes. He's just uncannily perfect. The dramatic timing is sublime. A week before the vote.
Sorry, I know we are talking about an awful, awful murder, but it is the case.
White BNP-ish loner brutally slaughters pretty young-ish Blairite REMAINIAN lady MP with two small kids, while shouting Brexiteer slogans. Then when he gets to court he continues ranting about British independence. I'm surprised he wasn't wearing a Nigel Farage tee-shirt during the crime.
BTW I do not think this is some nutter conspiracy. I'm just impressed by the ability of real life to outdo any scriptwriter.
If that is true, and I sincerely hope it isn't then we have achieved, as Douglas Murray put it, the "triumph of the assassin’s veto in our society":
He concludes: "something which could not only have appalling short-term consequences, but bloody long-term ones as well. I trust that those campaigning for ‘Remain’ recognise that a victory achieved on those terms would be the sourest and most divisive victory of all."
If Remain wins now,the question I have is where the immigration issue then goes.Are people who oppose the current levels of immigration just going to roll over and accept they have lost and we are going to live in a country of 75 to 80 million in the next 30 years?
I can't help but think that Leave have lost this referendum now. Every day there's going to be new information about how the murderer is a Brexit supporter - that much s completely evaporated.
So, against all the odds, British foreign policy for the next 40 years could be decided by a crazed lunatic. It's a funny old world.
He's been charged. Only factual information can be dispensed by the media. Lurid speculation would be contempt of court.
Mair also allegedly said “this is for Britain” and “keep of the case......
According to the prosecution’s summary, Mair said a variation of “Britain first”, “Keep Britain independent”, “Britain always comes first”, and “This is for Britain” as he launched the attack on Cox, who was killed on the way to her constituency surgery in Birstall on Thursday.
Meh. Sad. My initial instinctive reaction was right. This destroys LEAVE's lead, and will shunt REMAIN over the line. What an awful way to decide. Just the worst.
Evenblame leave, this is political bubble stuff
I are
Theydays
The suspension of campaigning helps remain who were getting pummelled on the ropes but Leave also gained in a few places
The focus went out of farages poster, IDS missed press
Still favourable to remain but some lucky escapes for leave
Sadly I think you're wrong. This will give REMAIN their crucial 3-5%.
Mair is like the villain from central casting for REMAIN's purposes. He's just uncannily perfect. The dramatic timing is sublime. A week before the vote.
Sorry, I know we are talking about an awful, awful murder, but it is the case.
White BNP-ish loner brutally slaughters pretty young-ish Blairite REMAINIAN lady MP with two small kids, while shouting Brexiteer slogans. Then when he gets to court he continues ranting about British independence. I'm surprised he wasn't wearing a Nigel Farage tee-shirt during the crime.
BTW I do not think this is some nutter conspiracy. I'm just impressed by the ability of real life to outdo any scriptwriter.
I think people are capable of separating the two. Voting Leave won't unleash thousands of Mairs (my age, btw, scary). If you want less immigration then Leave is your only viable choice. And most voters want a lot less. Ergo Leave still wins.
I agree with AlanBrooke on this. It's kept Farage and his poster off the TV, it's kept Neill from IDS. I'd be delighted with both if I were a Leaver.
Over the past years I've posted some horrible, vicious stuff against Cameron and particularly Osborne. I've always taken the view that although it is not right to make personal attacks on fellow posters, public figures are fair game. In light of Jo Cox, my behaviour is regrettable, and I have to temper this in the future.
Nick Palmer emailed privately after the Labour defeat of 2015- something that cost him more than most. He said....the Tories are not so bad, and the UK is still a tolerant country to live in. I hope he doesn't mind me betraying his confidence- Nick is a generous spirit.
I think the Tories mostly mean well - the problem is a narrowness of vision which limits understanding of the damage that many of their policies do, and under Cameron a preoccupation with tactical success at the expense of any serious long-term direction. The fact that we're having a referendum for which he thinks a possible outcome is something between economic diaster and outright war is a good example: it seemed like a good wheeze at the time to help in in 2015, but really no responsible Government should offer an option if it thinks it would be disastrous.
But the "Tory scum" stuff is both wrong and counter-productive, and I think you're right to scale back the intensity, without resiling from the basic disagreement.
If Remain wins now,the question I have is where the immigration issue then goes.Are people who oppose the current levels of immigration just going to roll over and accept they have lost and we are going to live in a country of 75 to 80 million in the next 30 years?
They will need to to vote UKIP or ensure Cameron's replacement is really, no fooling serious about immigration, to mitigate the situation as much as they can,
The referendum was over the moment this lunatic opened fire. As already said, the first vote on the EU in 40 years and it's been completely hijacked by a disturbed loner. It's really, really sad. I never thought Leave had a chance until the past fortnight, but the polls tonight will show the closing of the gap has been reversed and I expect a 60/40 split on polling day, maybe even 65/35, which is probably where we were at pre-campaign. The reason it has been a passionate debate is because it really means something, this one, and I genuinely fear for the good of my country as we move further and further into a ruinous relationship with the EU disaster. For a moment the door to sovereignty and a renewed confidence in Britain as a global-facing - rather than just EU-facing - power stood ajar, and then it slammed shut thanks to this inexplicable act by a man who needed help.
I can't help but think that Leave have lost this referendum now. Every day there's going to be new information about how the murderer is a Brexit supporter - that much s completely evaporated.
So, against all the odds, British foreign policy for the next 40 years could be decided by a crazed lunatic. It's a funny old world.
He's been charged. Only factual information can be dispensed by the media. Lurid speculation would be contempt of court.
Mair also allegedly said “this is for Britain” and “keep of the case......
According to the prosecution’s summary, Mair said a variation of “Britain first”, “Keep Britain independent”, “Britain always comes first”, and “This is for Britain” as he launched the attack on Cox, who was killed on the way to her constituency surgery in Birstall on Thursday.
Meh. Sad. My initial instinctive reaction was right. This destroys LEAVE's lead, and will shunt REMAIN over the line. What an awful way to decide. Just the worst.
Evenblame leave, this is political bubble stuff
I are
Theydays
The suspension of campaigning helps remain who were getting pummelled on the ropes but Leave also gained in a few places
The focus went out of farages poster, IDS missed press
Still favourable to remain but some lucky escapes for leave
Sadly I think you're wrong. This will give REMAIN their crucial 3-5%.
Mair is like the villain from central casting for REMAIN's purposes. He's just uncannily perfect. The dramatic timing is sublime. A week before the vote.
Sorry, I know we are talking about an awful, awful murder, but it is the case.
I think people are capable of separating the two. Voting Leave won't unleash thousands of Mairs (my age, btw, scary). If you want less immigration then Leave is your only viable choice. And most voters want a lot less. Ergo Leave still wins.
I agree with AlanBrooke on this. It's kept Farage and his poster off the TV, it's kept Neill from IDS. I'd be delighted with both if I were a Leaver.
It maybe wishful thinking, but shrill Twitter warriors have proven to be so counter-productive, both in GE2015 and thus far in the referendum campaign, they're going to overdo it and continue to alienate sensible people.
Euref is going to be won in the shires, where dwell the underestimated, stolid English yeomanry . Polls out soon, let's see.
If Remain wins now,the question I have is where the immigration issue then goes.Are people who oppose the current levels of immigration just going to roll over and accept they have lost and we are going to live in a country of 75 to 80 million in the next 30 years?
They will need to to vote UKIP or ensure Cameron's replacement is really, no fooling serious about immigration, to mitigate the situation as much as they can,
You could also ask: "If Leave wins now,the question I have is where the immigration issue then goes." It's not clear.
2) REMAIN is trying to capitalise on the recent murder. This will cower LEAVE but unlikely to change minds. LEAVE are fed up with being told what they can say.
and 3... 3 points!
3) LEAVE doesnt need a manifesto, or budget. LEAVE is just a decision to LEAVE the EU. LEAVE comprises Labour, Conservative, UKIP and other. They have no obligation to form a common policy.
The grit in the ointment is the final paragraph of the article written by Marina Hyde and posted earlier by Carlotta. It explains why, despite all the arguments put forward by cyclefree and others there really is only one choice
"There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?"
Definitely worth it, if only to give one in the eye to some privileged, snooty cow who doesn't encounter people like Farage (or his millions of voters) at her dinner parties...
The grit in the ointment is the final paragraph of the article written by Marina Hyde and posted earlier by Carlotta. It explains why, despite all the arguments put forward by cyclefree and others there really is only one choice
"There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?"
Using that logic, is a vote for Remain is a vote for the IRA, anti-semites and ISIS apologists?
You can try and make this stick...if you can. Then you look at the likes of Jo Cox, Obama, the Pope, Lagarde, Alistair Darling, Cameron, Gordon Brown, Sam Cam, Carney, the Miliband brothers, Justine Greening and about 480 other MP's, Nobel prize scientists, the universities, 80% plus of economists, Stephen Hawking, the IMF, Merkel....and so the list goes on
Can you please find me one, just once credible voice behind leave....not Nadine Dorries, or Priti Patel, or Gove or Johnson, or Farage, of IDS, to Howard, or Murdoch, or Dacre, or Lawson, or Michael Howard, or Guthrie or John Mann...is there a single credible, mainstream voice behind leave that could make someone like me listen?
I can't help but think that Leave have lost this referendum now. Every day there's going to be new information about how the murderer is a Brexit supporter - that much s completely evaporated.
So, against all the odds, British foreign policy for the next 40 years could be decided by a crazed lunatic. It's a funny old world.
He's been charged. Only factual information can be dispensed by the media. Lurid speculation would be contempt of court.
Mair also allegedly said “this is for Britain” and “keep Britain independent” as he stabbed and shot the MP for Batley and Spen, prosecutors said both in court and in their printed outline of the case......
Meh. Sad. My initial instinctive reaction was right. This destroys LEAVE's lead, and will shunt REMAIN over the line. What an awful way to decide. Just the worst.
Even my missus who's sort of pro remain doesn't blame leave, this is political bubble stuff
I think it's shows just quite how desperate remain are
They need to scrape the barrel in the next five days
The suspension of campaigning helps remain who were getting pummelled on the ropes but Leave also gained in a few places
The focus went out of farages poster, IDS missed getting dissected by Andrew Neil and a weekend break of economic scaremongering has been lost in the press
Still favourable to remain but some lucky escapes for leave
Sadly I think you're wrong. This will give REMAIN their crucial 3-5%.
Mair is like the villain from central casting for REMAIN's purposes. He's just uncannily perfect. The dramatic timing is sublime. A week before the vote.
Sorry, I know we are talking about an awful, awful murder, but it is the case.
White BNP-ish loner brutally slaughters pretty young-ish Blairite REMAINIAN lady MP with two small kids, while shouting Brexiteer slogans. Then when he gets to court he continues ranting about British independence. I'm surprised he wasn't wearing a Nigel Farage tee-shirt during the crime.
BTW I do not think this is some nutter conspiracy. I'm just impressed by the ability of real life to outdo any scriptwriter.
I wouldn't be surprised if there were certain people who thought that way but it would surely be too risky and hard to pull off.
If Remain wins now,the question I have is where the immigration issue then goes.Are people who oppose the current levels of immigration just going to roll over and accept they have lost and we are going to live in a country of 75 to 80 million in the next 30 years?
Remain won Scotland 55-45 and then promptly got wiped out because the Unionists have nothing in common beyond the union.
The grit in the ointment is the final paragraph of the article written by Marina Hyde and posted earlier by Carlotta. It explains why, despite all the arguments put forward by cyclefree and others there really is only one choice
"There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?"
Definitely worth it, if only to give one in the eye to some privileged, snooty cow who doesn't encounter people like Farage (or his millions of voters) at her dinner parties...
Didn't Farage go to Dulwich College public school and work in the City? Hardly fine proletarian stock.
Labour resisting the move is unthinkable. No opposition can ever reject a challenge for an early election.
FTPA works during hung parliaments.
If they thought they were going to lose they'd find a way. It would actually be quite easy in this case: just say, 'this whole farce is clearly an exercise in Boris's vanity, and is intended as a distraction because he doesn't know what the hell he's doing post-Brexit. Just get on with governing, Tories, as you were elected to do only last year.'
Come 2017 it will be two years not last year. Furthermore it would be an admission of failure and cowardice that is unthinkable, what happens next time and every time Labour try to oppose a policy? Especially a policy Boris has that wasn't in Cameron's manifesto?
PMQs: Leader of the Opposition: [Government policy] is wrong it is affecting the poor and you shouldn't do it. Prime Minister: This is our policy and we think it is the right policy and the public back it. If you opposite it then why are you too frit to face the public and let the public decide?
LotO will be even more powerless than ever. A PM can refuse a challenge of an early election because he can say he's getting on with the job, a Leader of the Opposition can't. Their job is to oppose and to win the next election, turning down an election defeats that.
It's hard to see how he isn't. Intriguing that Europe is about to lose two big-hitter, centre-right PMs.
His main hope is a coalition of the established parties to keep the usurpers at bay
Pretty common elsewhere in Europe
I can't see the Socialists teaming up with the heirs to Franco. A left alliance is more possible, but that also looks tricky. What may happen is Rajoy backs down, and PSOE or PP goes into coalition with Ciudadanos, and the party not participating (PP or PSOE) abstains in the investidure vote. It will be rocky whatever happens. PSOE/Podemos/IU gets over the line but they are bitterly separated by small differences.
The grit in the ointment is the final paragraph of the article written by Marina Hyde and posted earlier by Carlotta. It explains why, despite all the arguments put forward by cyclefree and others there really is only one choice
"There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?"
Definitely worth it, if only to give one in the eye to some privileged, snooty cow who doesn't encounter people like Farage (or his millions of voters) at her dinner parties...
Didn't Farage go to Dulwich College public school and work in the City? Hardly fine proletarian stock.
He's not snooty though, or if he is he doesn't seem so.
If Remain wins now,the question I have is where the immigration issue then goes.Are people who oppose the current levels of immigration just going to roll over and accept they have lost and we are going to live in a country of 75 to 80 million in the next 30 years?
They will need to to vote UKIP or ensure Cameron's replacement is really, no fooling serious about immigration, to mitigate the situation as much as they can,
There are alot of issues with that as we well know.Tories will be told that voting UKIP will let Corbyn in and he will be worse; the electoral system stuffs UKIP; Labour voters will probably revert to type come any GE. Also given that there is no way of controlling EU immigration the scope for reduction is pretty limited . I see huge structural problems ahead.
The grit in the ointment is the final paragraph of the article written by Marina Hyde and posted earlier by Carlotta. It explains why, despite all the arguments put forward by cyclefree and others there really is only one choice
"There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?"
Definitely worth it, if only to give one in the eye to some privileged, snooty cow who doesn't encounter people like Farage (or his millions of voters) at her dinner parties...
Articles focussing on personalities just show how devoid of arguments remain have become
Farage isn't the bogeyman the left would like him to be boorish perhaps but he's anything but the new fuehrer
Comments
Another excellent article from CycleFree - where 'Muddling through' meets 'Le Grand Projet'.....
FTPA works during hung parliaments.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/18/jo-cox-murder-suspect-thomas-mair-told-police-he-was-political-activist
Betting PostF1: my pre-race piece, containing literally three tips, is up here:
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/azerbaijan-pre-race-2016.html
I can't see how media coverage of a Brexit supporting murderer is going to do anything other than destroy support for Leave. For people like me, who care deeply about restoring democratic legitimacy to our institutions, it's an absolute nightmare. What's worse is that before this tragic murder there was, I think, a glimmer of hope that we might just pull off something spectacular. Now, for me at least, that hope has completely evaporated.
So, against all the odds, British foreign policy for the next 40 years could be decided by a crazed lunatic. It's a funny old world.
I honestly thought Cameron would get more, as it's so manifestly in Germany's interest to keep us in. I belatedly realised that Mutti was more of an idealist than I'd appreciated, possibly because of her East German roots.
I do have scenarios where Brexit proves to be useful to Germany in the medium term, but I appreciate we think differently on this topic, and it's tedious to have someone evangelizing at you when your mind is made up
That said, although my views on the margin has changed, I've always thought Remain would win, so feel a bit less anxious about the potential impact of the black swan.
Which is why I can't understand Cameron avoiding HoL reform
It's going to happen
He could recast it in his, own image and put the issue to bed for fifty years
It costs nothing and might just be a legacy for the history books
Lack of courage
I know there's no realignment of politics coming despite the fevered dreams of some, but with the visceral hatred of Cameron and Osborne from many Tories combined with some on the centre left who still cannot stomach Corbyn and might be thinking given what might follow Cameron and Osborne are not so bad (comparatively), it really wouldn't be a bad idea.
According to the prosecution’s summary, Mair said a variation of “Britain first”, “Keep Britain independent”, “Britain always comes first”, and “This is for Britain” as he launched the attack on Cox, who was killed on the way to her constituency surgery in Birstall on Thursday.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/18/jo-cox-murder-suspect-thomas-mair-told-police-he-was-political-activist
Opinium I'm expecting between now and 8pm
YouGov normally comes out around 9.30ish. Not had any confirmation yet.
I have tried that and for some reason it wont recognise the bloody tune !!
Its probably a Remain conspiracy !!!!
I can't help but think though that this poor woman, who was so brutally and horribly murdered, beforehand had to contend with the kind of vile, right wing abuse she was subjected to in the preceding weeks...so much so that she went to the Police. She is a young mother who supported asylum seekers and she was subjected to horrible hate crimes before she was murdered by a lunatic drawn to this nationalistic nihilism in his madness.
But as I have said, you make your bed with the English hooligans, the EDL, the BNP, UKIP, Farage, Murdoch, the Daily Mail, Dacre, The Sun, The Express, Le Pen....you make your bed with unpleasant types.
On the scale of things where we can piss nine million away on a I leaflet it's nothing
Except perhaps for some political capital which Cameron has been throwing around him like 1920s reichmarks
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/518521/Prejudice_and_social_media_-_infographic.pdf
Classy
@DAaronovitch: ….nationalist slogans. The man who claimed it had ‘recanted’ they said. Now it’s become clear what happened THEY might like to recant .
Maybe posters who said the killing of a politician was "not about politics" might also review their position?
Given there was much dispute over what he said at the time, what harm can it do putting the CPS version on record?
I think it's shows just quite how desperate remain are
They need to scrape the barrel in the next five days
The suspension of campaigning helps remain who were getting pummelled on the ropes but Leave also gained in a few places
The focus went out of farages poster, IDS missed getting dissected by Andrew Neil and a weekend break of economic scaremongering has been lost in the press
Still favourable to remain but some lucky escapes for leave
You can't cherrypick. Either fringe extremists believe a perverted corruption of an ideology (the line taken for Islamist extremists) or they're caused by a mainstream perspective (the view some are applying to this man, who may be mentally ill).
The football hooligan analogy is the best. They're not indicative of a standard football fan, and normal football fans can't be held accountable for the behaviour of a few delinquents.
Mr. Tyson, the Daily Mail and Sun have millions of readers. Preferring a particular newspaper doesn't place in the same moral grouping as a murderer.
Yeah, I fear you're right. What's worse is it won't resolve anything. What a horrible way for Remain to win.
http://elpais.com/elpais/2016/06/18/media/1466262016_827533.html?id_externo_rsoc=TW_CC
This won't make anyone rally round Remain.
Just as if...
What isn't clear is his motive, reports says he was clearly wound up about something over the last two days but nobody knows what that is yet
This vote has made me realise that I wouldn't be that bothered if Osborne won the party's leadership and became the next PM, something that I would never expected to have said. This vote is like losing into the abyss of right wing politics.....Osborne ain't that bad.
Wow!
I know there's no realignment of politics coming despite the fevered dreams of some, but with the visceral hatred of Cameron and Osborne from many Tories combined with some on the centre left who still cannot stomach Corbyn and might be thinking given what might follow Cameron and Osborne are not so bad (comparatively), it really wouldn't be a bad idea.
@kle4
Over the past years I've posted some horrible, vicious stuff against Cameron and particularly Osborne. I've always taken the view that although it is not right to make personal attacks on fellow posters, public figures are fair game. In light of Jo Cox, my behaviour is regrettable, and I have to temper this in the future.
Nick Palmer emailed privately after the Labour defeat of 2015- something that cost him more than most. He said....the Tories are not so bad, and the UK is still a tolerant country to live in. I hope he doesn't mind me betraying his confidence- Nick is a generous spirit.
"There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?"
Which you appear to object to.
It's debatable whether Islam would've lasted a century if Emperor Maurice had bought his soldiers new footwear.
He didn't, being a penny-pincher, and they rebelled. This led to Flavius Phocas becoming emperor and war with Persia (the Persian ruler, Chosroes, was a personal friend of Maurice, who had protected him, and took the opportunity to invade the Eastern Roman Empire). Phocas was deposed by Heraclius, who managed to best Chosroes before illness laid him low, at which point Islam rolled up and found two exhausted empires ripe for a good kicking.
But if you write a story where the purchase of shoes, or lack thereof, caused an empire to fall you might well be laughed at.
I open door one. The host opens door three to reveal Michael Adebolajo beheading Lee Rigby shouting "Allahu Akbar"
Do I switch?
In the same way I took the word of a repressed gay claiming he was a jihadi ?
https://twitter.com/thespainreport/status/744210115163787264
I'd vote for Nick.
Are you venturing into Tuscany on your Italian odyssey?
I predict that whatever tonight's polls say, we will read far too much into them.
In all events the murder has muddied the waters, the myth will be out there that leave had won
As I have said consistently for Cameron the means of a victory was as important as the victory itself and on that first count he has failed and the problem will just get bigger
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/cant-show-decency-jo-coxs-death/
He concludes: "something which could not only have appalling short-term consequences, but bloody long-term ones as well. I trust that those campaigning for ‘Remain’ recognise that a victory achieved on those terms would be the sourest and most divisive victory of all."
Hopefully rajoy is screwed
and we are going to live in a country of 75 to 80 million in the next 30 years?
I agree with AlanBrooke on this. It's kept Farage and his poster off the TV, it's kept Neill from IDS. I'd be delighted with both if I were a Leaver.
But the "Tory scum" stuff is both wrong and counter-productive, and I think you're right to scale back the intensity, without resiling from the basic disagreement.
Pretty common elsewhere in Europe
Euref is going to be won in the shires, where dwell the underestimated, stolid English yeomanry
"If Leave wins now,the question I have is where the immigration issue then goes." It's not clear.
1) The EU is 19 yrs old and not 46 yrs.
2) REMAIN is trying to capitalise on the recent murder. This will cower LEAVE but unlikely to change minds. LEAVE are fed up with being told what they can say.
and 3... 3 points!
3) LEAVE doesnt need a manifesto, or budget. LEAVE is just a decision to LEAVE the EU. LEAVE comprises Labour, Conservative, UKIP and other. They have no obligation to form a common policy.
Can you please find me one, just once credible voice behind leave....not Nadine Dorries, or Priti Patel, or Gove or Johnson, or Farage, of IDS, to Howard, or Murdoch, or Dacre, or Lawson, or Michael Howard, or Guthrie or John Mann...is there a single credible, mainstream voice behind leave that could make someone like me listen?
PMQs:
Leader of the Opposition: [Government policy] is wrong it is affecting the poor and you shouldn't do it.
Prime Minister: This is our policy and we think it is the right policy and the public back it. If you opposite it then why are you too frit to face the public and let the public decide?
LotO will be even more powerless than ever. A PM can refuse a challenge of an early election because he can say he's getting on with the job, a Leader of the Opposition can't. Their job is to oppose and to win the next election, turning down an election defeats that.
"is there a single credible, mainstream voice behind leave that could make someone like me listen?"
Angela Merkel in a negligee?
Farage isn't the bogeyman the left would like him to be boorish perhaps but he's anything but the new fuehrer