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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » There’s a danger of Leave peaking too soon

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  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    weejonnie said:

    I've just caught up with Sir John Major's comment about Boris, IDS, and Gove

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with a hungry python”

    Was anyone else expecting him to say

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with Freddie Starr

    A truly extraordinary outburst by John Major, irrespective of his innermost concerns.
    Are any of the major bookies by any chance yet offering odds on him becoming the next leader of the Labour party? This would seem to be his natural home, especially if Cameron were to resign in the wake of a REMAIN defeat and be replaced by one of the Three Musketeers.
    It's panic. When panic sets in rational thought vanishes - you can even ask that lunatic psychologist in the Telegraph and he'll confirm it. Remain are getting more and more hysterical and are losing their discipline.
    My timeline is full of Remain supporters saying Brexit has no plan, and Brexiteers throwing it straight back.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,538

    RobD said:

    The supermarket checkout is actually quite a good example of where we haven't got much closer to an automated solution to the problem. There are so many wrinkles the problem in real life setting and many of which computers are currently very bad at / find very hard to do efficiency, where as a human finds it trivial.

    Silly example, alcohol sale, a human is pretty damn good at looking at somebody and instantly being able to estimate they are definitely over 25, probably over 21, etc. Computers find this task very very difficult.

    A partial solution would be the ability to swipe your driver's license to verify your age. I guess then the problem is you could just borrow someone else's!
    Or, like me, you have the old-style non-swipeable driving licence.
    Not every adult has a driving licence, and the proportion that does is in long term decline.

    Classic PB myopia - I have a driving licence so everyone else must have one, stands to reason.
    I think it should be sufficient that you pay by credit card to show you are over 18. And I really don't see why you should need age verification to buy paracetamol or ibuprofen when you are allowed to buy so little. Teenagers get headaches too.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,236
    edited June 2016
    tyson said:

    GeoffM said:

    tyson said:


    The Daily Telegraph Business News reports on 05/06/16:

    "British voters are succumbing to impulsive gut feelings and irrational reflexes in the Brexit campaign with little regard for the enormous consequences down the road, the world's most influential psychologist has warned.

    Daniel Kahneman, the Israeli Nobel laureate and father of behavioural economics, said the referendum debate is being driven by a destructive psychological process, one that could lead to a grave misjudgment and a downward spiral for British society.

    "The major impression one gets observing the debate is that the reasons for exit are clearly emotional," he said.

    Dear Lord in heaven above, what next?

    OK- we've had the Pope, Obama, Merkel, Lagarde, Clinton (both he and she) trying their best, now we have this Psychologist. Who would you suggest could come next to show us the light. Ali, my hero, his gone. Mandela is gone. We are fast running out of sensible and good people to tell us that Brexit is a bad thing.
    I don't regard any of those people as "sensible and good"
    In fact I dislike them all and have no interest in or time for their views on any subject.
    Do you really think the Pope is bad? He is such a good man. There are few people in human history who transcend...Francis is one.

    Name me one person that you think is good...Is spiritually good.....Has good vibes.....Has a wisdom........Is humble and self deprecating.....Is not interested in personal wealth.......Believes in the greater good........Has been elected to their position by their peers and not through ambition........Creates bonhomie and good feeling around them.......Gives hope.......


    And who supports Brexit.....
    Entirely unrelated to anything to do with the referendum.

    I do not see the Catholic church as a force for good in the world. I see it as an institution which causes huge amounts of unnecessary suffering and which helps to keep the masses under control. Clearly it is not as bad as some muslim sects but that does not mean it is either good or noble. Francis may himself be a man who tries to do good but his failings (for example on contraception or homosexuality) cannot be forgotten or forgiven.

    So no he does not in any way transcend. He could. But he does not.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,414
    tyson said:

    GeoffM said:

    tyson said:


    The Daily Telegraph Business News reports on 05/06/16:

    "British voters are succumbing to impulsive gut feelings and irrational reflexes in the Brexit campaign with little regard for the enormous consequences down the road, the world's most influential psychologist has warned.

    Daniel Kahneman, the Israeli Nobel laureate and father of behavioural economics, said the referendum debate is being driven by a destructive psychological process, one that could lead to a grave misjudgment and a downward spiral for British society.

    "The major impression one gets observing the debate is that the reasons for exit are clearly emotional," he said.

    Dear Lord in heaven above, what next?

    OK- we've had the Pope, Obama, Merkel, Lagarde, Clinton (both he and she) trying their best, now we have this Psychologist. Who would you suggest could come next to show us the light. Ali, my hero, his gone. Mandela is gone. We are fast running out of sensible and good people to tell us that Brexit is a bad thing.
    I don't regard any of those people as "sensible and good"
    In fact I dislike them all and have no interest in or time for their views on any subject.
    Do you really think the Pope is bad? He is such a good man. There are few people in human history who transcend...Francis is one.

    Name me one person that you think is good...Is spiritually good.....Has good vibes.....Has a wisdom........Is humble and self deprecating.....Is not interested in personal wealth.......Believes in the greater good........Has been elected to their position by their peers and not through ambition........Creates bonhomie and good feeling around them.......Gives hope.......


    And who supports Brexit.....
    Vladimir Putin.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131

    RobD said:

    The supermarket checkout is actually quite a good example of where we haven't got much closer to an automated solution to the problem. There are so many wrinkles the problem in real life setting and many of which computers are currently very bad at / find very hard to do efficiency, where as a human finds it trivial.

    Silly example, alcohol sale, a human is pretty damn good at looking at somebody and instantly being able to estimate they are definitely over 25, probably over 21, etc. Computers find this task very very difficult.

    A partial solution would be the ability to swipe your driver's license to verify your age. I guess then the problem is you could just borrow someone else's!
    Or, like me, you have the old-style non-swipeable driving licence.
    Not every adult has a driving licence, and the proportion that does is in long term decline.

    Classic PB myopia - I have a driving licence so everyone else must have one, stands to reason.
    I think it should be sufficient that you pay by credit card to show you are over 18. And I really don't see why you should need age verification to buy paracetamol or ibuprofen when you are allowed to buy so little. Teenagers get headaches too.
    Now if only everybody had an ID card...drops bomb and runs for the hills....
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,236
    Scott_P said:

    viewcode said:

    OK, but...how many goats again?

    I see we have surpassed Godwin's law and moved onto Monty's law

    Whenever a Brexiteer gets confused by logic and loses an argument, they bleat "goats"
    Rich coming from the man who utterly fails to understand basic logic.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited June 2016
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hyufd - I never said automatation didn't replace certainly roles. I said that I didn't buy that it will mean millions of people won't have a job to go to. My point being proved by supermarkets, automatation has come in & more people are employed.

    Some industries will be harder hit, but new industries will develop eg who uses direct inquiries these days? But loads of people need to talk to support for their ISP and every company needs their website developing & ensuring it works 24/7.

    That may well be the case and the more creative the role the more likely it will be to grow and survive the rise of automation
    There is amazing gro
    Indeed but as pointed out earlier these jobs are only really suited to those with a high level of skills already
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hyufd - I never said automatation didn't replace certainly roles. I said that I didn't buy that it will mean millions of people won't have a job to go to. My point being proved by supermarkets, automatation has come in & more people are employed.

    Some industries will be harder hit, but new industries will develop eg who uses direct inquiries these days? But loads of people need to talk to support for their ISP and every company needs their website developing & ensuring it works 24/7.

    That may well be the case and the more creative the role the more likely it will be to grow and survive the rise of automation
    There is amazing growth in that. Just think how much demand there is for content these days. I have some business interest to do with twitch & not only is there casters making a living playing games, but each of those casters have artwork made, music, layouts, video makers for their YouTube channels. Whole army of creative people make livings out of others watching somebody play a video game.
    Indeed but as pointed out earlier these jobs are only really suited to those with a high level of skills already
    Not necessarily. I employ lower skilled people who to certain things in support. Answering emails, social media, etc which is related to creative technical endeavours. Computer Ai not close to being able to do it, see the failed chat bot experiments recently.
    Well that offers some encouragement
    Who would have thought that you could have a job talking to people over the internet on facebook, twitter, snapchat etc all day....I employ somebody to do that all day and they don't need to be a genius, creative etc.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,090
    PlatoSaid said:

    weejonnie said:

    I've just caught up with Sir John Major's comment about Boris, IDS, and Gove

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with a hungry python”

    Was anyone else expecting him to say

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with Freddie Starr

    A truly extraordinary outburst by John Major, irrespective of his innermost concerns.
    Are any of the major bookies by any chance yet offering odds on him becoming the next leader of the Labour party? This would seem to be his natural home, especially if Cameron were to resign in the wake of a REMAIN defeat and be replaced by one of the Three Musketeers.
    It's panic. When panic sets in rational thought vanishes - you can even ask that lunatic psychologist in the Telegraph and he'll confirm it. Remain are getting more and more hysterical and are losing their discipline.
    My timeline is full of Remain supporters saying Brexit has no plan, and Brexiteers throwing it straight back.
    There is a plan. But Leave cannot give any guarantees.

    And neither can Remain.

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/in-this-eu-referendum-every-vote-will-be-a-leap-in-the-dark/
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,617
    edited June 2016

    tyson said:

    GeoffM said:

    tyson said:


    The Daily Telegraph Business News reports on 05/06/16:

    "British voters are succumbing to impulsive gut feelings and irrational reflexes in the Brexit campaign with little regard for the enormous consequences down the road, the world's most influential psychologist has warned.

    Daniel Kahneman, the Israeli Nobel laureate and father of behavioural economics, said the referendum debate is being driven by a destructive psychological process, one that could lead to a grave misjudgment and a downward spiral for British society.

    "The major impression one gets observing the debate is that the reasons for exit are clearly emotional," he said.

    Dear Lord in heaven above, what next?

    OK- we've had ut of sensible and good people to tell us that Brexit is a bad thing.
    I dislike them all and have no interest in or time for their views on any subject.
    Do yBrexit.....
    Entirely unrelated to anything to do with the referendum.

    I do not see the Catholic church as a force for good in the world. I see it as an institution which causes huge amounts of unnecessary suffering and which helps to keep the masses under control. Clearly it is not as bad as some muslim sects but that does not mean it is either good or noble. Francis may himself be a man who tries to do good but his failings (for example on contraception or homosexuality) cannot be forgotten or forgiven.

    So no he does not in any way transcend. He could. But he does not.
    Richard?

    Who is this?

    OK, what have you done with Richard? He may have been irritating, almost always wrong, and charmingly offensive, but I had grown fond of the old dog.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,414

    RobD said:

    The supermarket checkout is actually quite a good example of where we haven't got much closer to an automated solution to the problem. There are so many wrinkles the problem in real life setting and many of which computers are currently very bad at / find very hard to do efficiency, where as a human finds it trivial.

    Silly example, alcohol sale, a human is pretty damn good at looking at somebody and instantly being able to estimate they are definitely over 25, probably over 21, etc. Computers find this task very very difficult.

    A partial solution would be the ability to swipe your driver's license to verify your age. I guess then the problem is you could just borrow someone else's!
    Or, like me, you have the old-style non-swipeable driving licence.
    Not every adult has a driving licence, and the proportion that does is in long term decline.

    Classic PB myopia - I have a driving licence so everyone else must have one, stands to reason.
    I think it should be sufficient that you pay by credit card to show you are over 18. And I really don't see why you should need age verification to buy paracetamol or ibuprofen when you are allowed to buy so little. Teenagers get headaches too.
    Now if only everybody had an ID card...drops bomb and runs for the hills....
    I did read somewhere, we're not far away from sub dermal NFC chips that the could track you and verify your ID just like that.

    Sounds like a great idea.
  • I've just caught up with Sir John Major's comment about Boris, IDS, and Gove

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with a hungry python”

    Was anyone else expecting him to say

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with Freddie Starr

    A truly extraordinary outburst by John Major, irrespective of his innermost concerns.
    Are any of the major bookies by any chance yet offering odds on him becoming the next leader of the Labour party? This would seem to be his natural home, especially if Cameron were to resign in the wake of a REMAIN defeat and be replaced by one of the Three Musketeers.
    Like I said earlier, this is very personal for John Major.

    He thinks the same people who are now leading lights of the Brexit campaign (who might conceivably win) are the same ones who brought down his premiership in the 1990s.

    He hates them.
    OK ..... I've got it.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Roy Taylor
    what the great cameroni has achieved in renegotiation and reform of the EU https://t.co/Ej04Aeq8xv
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,342
    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    Some industries will be harder hit, but new industries will develop eg who uses direct inquiries these days? But loads of people need to talk to support for their ISP and every company needs their website developing & ensuring it works 24/7.

    The problem is that not every forklift truck driver made redundant by warehouse automation can turn his hand to website design. There is a significant proportion of our society who are essentially suited to manual or skilled labour, and that market for that is drying up as it is either offshored or replaced by machines.

    And that will soon happen to large chunks of skilled or administrative workers too, as AI and the like eliminate more and more jobs. Progress leaves many bodies in its wake.
    That sounds like some Sci-Fi dystopia.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,534

    tyson said:

    GeoffM said:

    tyson said:


    The Daily Telegraph Business News reports on 05/06/16:

    "British voters are succumbing to impulsive gut feelings and irrational reflexes in the Brexit campaign with little regard for the enormous consequences down the road, the world's most influential psychologist has warned.

    Daniel Kahneman, the Israeli Nobel laureate and father of behavioural economics, said the referendum debate is being driven by a destructive psychological process, one that could lead to a grave misjudgment and a downward spiral for British society.

    "The major impression one gets observing the debate is that the reasons for exit are clearly emotional," he said.

    Dear Lord in heaven above, what next?

    OK- we've had the Pope, Obama, Merkel, Lagarde, Clinton (both he and she) trying their best, now we have this Psychologist. Who would you suggest could come next to show us the light. Ali, my hero, his gone. Mandela is gone. We are fast running out of sensible and good people to tell us that Brexit is a bad thing.
    I don't regard any of those people as "sensible and good"
    In fact I dislike them all and have no interest in or time for their views on any subject.
    Do you really think the Pope is bad? He is such a good man. There are few people in human history who transcend...Francis is one.

    Name me one person that you think is good...Is spiritually good.....Has good vibes.....Has a wisdom........Is humble and self deprecating.....Is not interested in personal wealth.......Believes in the greater good........Has been elected to their position by their peers and not through ambition........Creates bonhomie and good feeling around them.......Gives hope.......


    And who supports Brexit.....
    Vladimir Putin.
    Putin may not be interested in personal wealth but his having a net worth of $70 billion probably helps
    http://www.therichest.com/celebnetworth/politician/president/vladimir-putin-net-worth/
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,313

    RobD said:

    The supermarket checkout is actually quite a good example of where we haven't got much closer to an automated solution to the problem. There are so many wrinkles the problem in real life setting and many of which computers are currently very bad at / find very hard to do efficiency, where as a human finds it trivial.

    Silly example, alcohol sale, a human is pretty damn good at looking at somebody and instantly being able to estimate they are definitely over 25, probably over 21, etc. Computers find this task very very difficult.

    A partial solution would be the ability to swipe your driver's license to verify your age. I guess then the problem is you could just borrow someone else's!
    Or, like me, you have the old-style non-swipeable driving licence.
    Not every adult has a driving licence, and the proportion that does is in long term decline.

    Classic PB myopia - I have a driving licence so everyone else must have one, stands to reason.
    I think it should be sufficient that you pay by credit card to show you are over 18. And I really don't see why you should need age verification to buy paracetamol or ibuprofen when you are allowed to buy so little. Teenagers get headaches too.
    Now if only everybody had an ID card...drops bomb and runs for the hills....
    I did read somewhere, we're not far away from sub dermal NFC chips that the could track you and verify your ID just like that.

    Sounds like a great idea.
    No doubt they'll be spoofed a few days after they are first released.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,084
    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    Some industries will be harder hit, but new industries will develop eg who uses direct inquiries these days? But loads of people need to talk to support for their ISP and every company needs their website developing & ensuring it works 24/7.

    The problem is that not every forklift truck driver made redundant by warehouse automation can turn his hand to website design. There is a significant proportion of our society who are essentially suited to manual or skilled labour, and that market for that is drying up as it is either offshored or replaced by machines.

    And that will soon happen to large chunks of skilled or administrative workers too, as AI and the like eliminate more and more jobs. Progress leaves many bodies in its wake.
    That sounds like some Sci-Fi dystopia.
    I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Rich

    I understand how many agreements make 2.

    Puts me ahead of the Brexit pack so far.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,913
    TOPPING said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    Some industries will be harder hit, but new industries will develop eg who uses direct inquiries these days? But loads of people need to talk to support for their ISP and every company needs their website developing & ensuring it works 24/7.

    The problem is that not every forklift truck driver made redundant by warehouse automation can turn his hand to website design. There is a significant proportion of our society who are essentially suited to manual or skilled labour, and that market for that is drying up as it is either offshored or replaced by machines.

    And that will soon happen to large chunks of skilled or administrative workers too, as AI and the like eliminate more and more jobs. Progress leaves many bodies in its wake.
    Plus if we are about to have a point-based system of immigration, expect better qualified immigrants (62% of current EU immigrants have degrees, if anyone is interested).

    Just as a matter of interest what happens if a points based system is rejected by the HOC and more probably the House of Lords.
  • If anyone is interested BBC Parliament are doing an evening of progs about the 1975 referendum
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited June 2016

    RobD said:

    The supermarket checkout is actually quite a good example of where we haven't got much closer to an automated solution to the problem. There are so many wrinkles the problem in real life setting and many of which computers are currently very bad at / find very hard to do efficiency, where as a human finds it trivial.

    Silly example, alcohol sale, a human is pretty damn good at looking at somebody and instantly being able to estimate they are definitely over 25, probably over 21, etc. Computers find this task very very difficult.

    A partial solution would be the ability to swipe your driver's license to verify your age. I guess then the problem is you could just borrow someone else's!
    Or, like me, you have the old-style non-swipeable driving licence.
    Not every adult has a driving licence, and the proportion that does is in long term decline.

    Classic PB myopia - I have a driving licence so everyone else must have one, stands to reason.
    That's not the case in the US, where the drivers license also functions as the preferred ID card, so virtually all adults have one, even if they don't drive or own a car. Even if you don't drive, the DMV will issue a 'non-driver' license to you, and come to your house if you can't get to their office.

    Licenses here have the same biometrics as a passport and are issued for 5 years, at a cost (in Georgia) of $18 including the eye test. Non-drivers ones are free.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,342

    tyson said:

    GeoffM said:

    tyson said:


    The Daily Telegraph Business News reports on 05/06/16:

    "British voters are succumbing to impulsive gut feelings and irrational reflexes in the Brexit campaign with little regard for the enormous consequences down the road, the world's most influential psychologist has warned.

    Daniel Kahneman, the Israeli Nobel laureate and father of behavioural economics, said the referendum debate is being driven by a destructive psychological process, one that could lead to a grave misjudgment and a downward spiral for British society.

    "The major impression one gets observing the debate is that the reasons for exit are clearly emotional," he said.

    Dear Lord in heaven above, what next?

    OK- we've had the Pope, Obama, Merkel, Lagarde, Clinton (both he and she) trying their best, now we have this Psychologist. Who would you suggest could come next to show us the light. Ali, my hero, his gone. Mandela is gone. We are fast running out of sensible and good people to tell us that Brexit is a bad thing.
    I don't regard any of those people as "sensible and good"
    In fact I dislike them all and have no interest in or time for their views on any subject.
    Do you really think the Pope is bad? He is such a good man. There are few people in human history who transcend...Francis is one.

    Name me one person that you think is good...Is spiritually good.....Has good vibes.....Has a wisdom........Is humble and self deprecating.....Is not interested in personal wealth.......Believes in the greater good........Has been elected to their position by their peers and not through ambition........Creates bonhomie and good feeling around them.......Gives hope.......


    And who supports Brexit.....
    Entirely unrelated to anything to do with the referendum.

    I do not see the Catholic church as a force for good in the world. I see it as an institution which causes huge amounts of unnecessary suffering and which helps to keep the masses under control. Clearly it is not as bad as some muslim sects but that does not mean it is either good or noble. Francis may himself be a man who tries to do good but his failings (for example on contraception or homosexuality) cannot be forgotten or forgiven.

    So no he does not in any way transcend. He could. But he does not.
    I'm not a Catholic, but I disagree.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,534
    matt said:

    HYUFD said:

    Indigo said:

    Some industries will be harder hit, but new industries will develop eg who uses direct inquiries these days? But loads of people need to talk to support for their ISP and every company needs their website developing & ensuring it works 24/7.

    The problem is that not every forklift truck driver made redundant by warehouse automation can turn his hand to website design. There is a significant proportion of our society who are essentially suited to manual or skilled labour, and that market for that is drying up as it is either offshored or replaced by machines.

    Call centres are the factories of the 21st century. And many companies won't offshore them and / or are onshoring them. No not everybody can become a Web developer, but new roles come along, new industries etc.

    And if it all goes tits up one can always become an estate agent ;-)
    Until people do all their house purchases/rentals online, though I suppose you could work for rightmove instead
    Is there no subject on which you're not magnificently overconfident and woefully ignorant?
    http://rightestateagents.co.uk/the-future-of-estate-agency-is-changing/
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,394

    tyson said:

    GeoffM said:

    tyson said:


    The Daily Telegraph Business News reports on 05/06/16:

    "British voters are succumbing to impulsive gut feelings and irrational reflexes in the Brexit campaign with little regard for the enormous consequences down the road, the world's most influential psychologist has warned.

    Daniel Kahneman, the Israeli Nobel laureate and father of behavioural economics, said the referendum debate is being driven by a destructive psychological process, one that could lead to a grave misjudgment and a downward spiral for British society.

    "The major impression one gets observing the debate is that the reasons for exit are clearly emotional," he said.

    Dear Lord in heaven above, what next?

    OK- we've had the Pope, Obama, Merkel, Lagarde, Clinton (both he and she) trying their best, now we have this Psychologist. Who would you suggest could come next to show us the light. Ali, my hero, his gone. Mandela is gone. We are fast running out of sensible and good people to tell us that Brexit is a bad thing.
    I don't regard any of those people as "sensible and good"
    In fact I dislike them all and have no interest in or time for their views on any subject.
    Do you really think the Pope is bad? He is such a good man. There are few people in human history who transcend...Francis is one.

    Name me one person that you think is good...Is spiritually good.....Has good vibes.....Has a wisdom........Is humble and self deprecating.....Is not interested in personal wealth.......Believes in the greater good........Has been elected to their position by their peers and not through ambition........Creates bonhomie and good feeling around them.......Gives hope.......


    And who supports Brexit.....
    Sunil
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,414

    If anyone is interested BBC Parliament are doing an evening of progs about the 1975 referendum

    No spoilers, I don't want the result spoiling.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,313
    edited June 2016

    TOPPING said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    Some industries will be harder hit, but new industries will develop eg who uses direct inquiries these days? But loads of people need to talk to support for their ISP and every company needs their website developing & ensuring it works 24/7.

    The problem is that not every forklift truck driver made redundant by warehouse automation can turn his hand to website design. There is a significant proportion of our society who are essentially suited to manual or skilled labour, and that market for that is drying up as it is either offshored or replaced by machines.

    And that will soon happen to large chunks of skilled or administrative workers too, as AI and the like eliminate more and more jobs. Progress leaves many bodies in its wake.
    Plus if we are about to have a point-based system of immigration, expect better qualified immigrants (62% of current EU immigrants have degrees, if anyone is interested).

    Just as a matter of interest what happens if a points based system is rejected by the HOC and more probably the House of Lords.
    Then we won't have a points based system, that is the nature of democracy. Leaving the EU would give us the ability to chose, right now we have no say (well, little say!).

    Some changes can probably be made without primary legislation, however.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944

    (3d) Printers are a good example. 100.years ago only industrial printing presses, now everybody has a printer at home. Professional printing still,exists, but also this massive industry making printers, scanners, photocopiers & all the ink, repairs, maintenance etc etc etc. More people than ever working to do with printing, despite it used to be this very skilled job now any idiot can rattle off a poster.

    I can foresee 3d printers going a similar way and CNC machines etc. Yes the guy bashing metal won't be much good, but there will be demand for people who used to use their skilled engineering knowledge to shape a component, rather they will draw that into the computer.

    It already happens with car parts. That there are specialist firms popping up who will make you a bit for your cars where they don't make that part anymore, or you want to mod your car etc. Rather than necessarily putting people out of a job, it is opening up new job opportunities.

    The interesting thing about 3d printers is that they can't compete on price for medium to large prodcution runs because they take so long to print.

    Great for small runs though.

    I think people are missing the point of progress.

    It changes employment but if I built a magic machine that could do everyone's job, and set it running, who would I be able to sell to?

    No one after a while because they would not have jobs. So in practice as machines evolve to do more work we evolve what we want and what gets made gets cheaper.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,090
    On new technology, people have been predicting mass unemployment as a result of 'X' invention for centuries.

    But there is always economic change. Physical labour is becoming increasingly redundant now, and we are becoming more technologically reliant, and a bit too deskbound. As a consequence, we have an obesity crisis, but that is, in turn, fuelling both pharmaceutical innovation and a mini-boom in fitness centres, personal training and gyms.

    A similar thing could happen for medium-level mental jobs in future, like routine office work. So, what will continue to happen, IMHO, is that the trend of people moving to work in leisure and interpersonal ("face contact") industries will continue.

    Ultimately, that means less "work" and more creativity (music/film/science/ sport/novels ) and more challenges, competitions and design of mental/physical games.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,092
    Catching up with BBC's Marr - Major was brilliant. Quiet, cold anger.

  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    RobD said:

    The supermarket checkout is actually quite a good example of where we haven't got much closer to an automated solution to the problem. There are so many wrinkles the problem in real life setting and many of which computers are currently very bad at / find very hard to do efficiency, where as a human finds it trivial.

    Silly example, alcohol sale, a human is pretty damn good at looking at somebody and instantly being able to estimate they are definitely over 25, probably over 21, etc. Computers find this task very very difficult.

    A partial solution would be the ability to swipe your driver's license to verify your age. I guess then the problem is you could just borrow someone else's!
    Or, like me, you have the old-style non-swipeable driving licence.
    Not every adult has a driving licence, and the proportion that does is in long term decline.

    Classic PB myopia - I have a driving licence so everyone else must have one, stands to reason.
    I think it should be sufficient that you pay by credit card to show you are over 18. And I really don't see why you should need age verification to buy paracetamol or ibuprofen when you are allowed to buy so little. Teenagers get headaches too.
    Now if only everybody had an ID card...drops bomb and runs for the hills....
    I did read somewhere, we're not far away from sub dermal NFC chips that the could track you and verify your ID just like that.

    Sounds like a great idea.
    That's way cool - the Cowboys are in the NFC!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,394

    I've just caught up with Sir John Major's comment about Boris, IDS, and Gove

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with a hungry python”

    Was anyone else expecting him to say

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with Freddie Starr

    A truly extraordinary outburst by John Major, irrespective of his innermost concerns.
    Are any of the major bookies by any chance yet offering odds on him becoming the next leader of the Labour party? This would seem to be his natural home, especially if Cameron were to resign in the wake of a REMAIN defeat and be replaced by one of the Three Musketeers.
    Like I said earlier, this is very personal for John Major.

    He thinks the same people who are now leading lights of the Brexit campaign (who might conceivably win) are the same ones who brought down his premiership in the 1990s.

    He hates them.
    Were Gove, Boris and Priti even MPs back in 1995?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited June 2016

    Just as a matter of interest what happens if a points based system is rejected by the HOC and more probably the House of Lords.

    We already have a points based system
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,414
    Listening to Peter Shore speak, Nigel Farage isn't fit to lick his boots.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,617

    TOPPING said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    Some industries will be harder hit, but new industries will develop eg who uses direct inquiries these days? But loads of people need to talk to support for their ISP and every company needs their website developing & ensuring it works 24/7.

    The problem is that not every forklift truck driver made redundant by warehouse automation can turn his hand to website design. There is a significant proportion of our society who are essentially suited to manual or skilled labour, and that market for that is drying up as it is either offshored or replaced by machines.

    And that will soon happen to large chunks of skilled or administrative workers too, as AI and the like eliminate more and more jobs. Progress leaves many bodies in its wake.
    Plus if we are about to have a point-based system of immigration, expect better qualified immigrants (62% of current EU immigrants have degrees, if anyone is interested).

    Just as a matter of interest what happens if a points based system is rejected by the HOC and more probably the House of Lords.
    Ask Michael Gove.

    He's got it all thought through.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,121
    edited June 2016

    tyson said:

    GeoffM said:

    tyson said:


    The Daily Telegraph Business News reports on 05/06/16:



    I don't regard any of those people as "sensible and good"
    In fact I dislike them all and have no interest in or time for their views on any subject.

    Do you really think the Pope is bad? He is such a good man. There are few people in human history who transcend...Francis is one.

    Name me one person that you think is good...Is spiritually good.....Has good vibes.....Has a wisdom........Is humble and self deprecating.....Is not interested in personal wealth.......Believes in the greater good........Has been elected to their position by their peers and not through ambition........Creates bonhomie and good feeling around them.......Gives hope.......


    And who supports Brexit.....
    Entirely unrelated to anything to do with the referendum.

    I do not see the Catholic church as a force for good in the world. I see it as an institution which causes huge amounts of unnecessary suffering and which helps to keep the masses under control. Clearly it is not as bad as some muslim sects but that does not mean it is either good or noble. Francis may himself be a man who tries to do good but his failings (for example on contraception or homosexuality) cannot be forgotten or forgiven.

    So no he does not in any way transcend. He could. But he does not.
    Richard...the Pope really does transcend. I can't let that one go. He's gone as far as he can go on the conservative issues with the church....he's said there are more important things to focus our attentions on. He cannot go further in one Papacy. Even Francis has his limits.

    I've seen him twice and quite by chance been blessed by him once. He creates such good feeling around him. Outside, my family and very closest friends, I can genuinely say that I love Francis, something that I never could have imagined saying about someone I didn't know.
  • OUTOUT Posts: 569

    If anyone is interested BBC Parliament are doing an evening of progs about the 1975 referendum

    Peter Shore calling out project fear 41 years ago.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,953
    edited June 2016

    I've just caught up with Sir John Major's comment about Boris, IDS, and Gove

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with a hungry python”

    Was anyone else expecting him to say

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with Freddie Starr

    A telling intervention by gentleman John. Let's face it, the EU did him no favours on Black Wednesday - they could have at least tried to mitigate the run on the pound, but instead they decided to sit back and do bugger all. Major was hung out to dry. He owes the EU absolutely nothing but still thinks Brexit would be a disaster. He's a voice of the purest impartiality. We ignore him at our peril.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,236

    Indigo said:

    GeoffM said:

    TOPPING said:


    Yes I mentioned that earlier and have said it several times also before on here. If, a la Michael "2020" Gove, you think the ECJ will strike down a deal agreed by 28 heads of state (and then we'd say: ok then) it's Leave all day long for you. Plus a supply of tinfoil hats.

    It's been done before - so why not again?
    Precisely.

    The Denmark rejected Maastricht the Council of Europe ("heads of state") made a number of promises to Denmark concerning citizenship, border control and even the names it's citizens are allowed to use. This deal was totally ignored by the ECJ who made it plain that it was only interested in ratified treaties. It is an exactly comparable situation to our own.

    (The ECJ has also thrown out a resolution by the UN Security Council on a similar basis)
    TOPPING said:


    I also, btw, think that it would be ludicrous for the ECJ to strike down a deal just agreed by all EU Heads of State.

    See above, they have form, it's happened before.
    Which UNSCR did they throw out? Those count as international law.
    It is known as the Kadi case. The UN identified Yassin Abdullah Kadi as a supporterof Al Queda and a source of funds for the organisation. They imposed sanctions on him including the freezing of assets ( United Nations Security Council Resolutions 1267 and 1333). The EU obviously accepted this but Kadi went to the ECJ which overturned the EU decision and overruled the UNSC resolutions.
  • I've just caught up with Sir John Major's comment about Boris, IDS, and Gove

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with a hungry python”

    Was anyone else expecting him to say

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with Freddie Starr

    A truly extraordinary outburst by John Major, irrespective of his innermost concerns.
    Are any of the major bookies by any chance yet offering odds on him becoming the next leader of the Labour party? This would seem to be his natural home, especially if Cameron were to resign in the wake of a REMAIN defeat and be replaced by one of the Three Musketeers.
    Like I said earlier, this is very personal for John Major.

    He thinks the same people who are now leading lights of the Brexit campaign (who might conceivably win) are the same ones who brought down his premiership in the 1990s.

    He hates them.
    Were Gove, Boris and Priti even MPs back in 1995?
    John Major seems to be having flashbacks and senior moments. Has he remembered to send a card to his grandsons birthday this year?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,913

    I've just caught up with Sir John Major's comment about Boris, IDS, and Gove

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with a hungry python”

    Was anyone else expecting him to say

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with Freddie Starr

    A truly extraordinary outburst by John Major, irrespective of his innermost concerns.
    Are any of the major bookies by any chance yet offering odds on him becoming the next leader of the Labour party? This would seem to be his natural home, especially if Cameron were to resign in the wake of a REMAIN defeat and be replaced by one of the Three Musketeers.
    Like I said earlier, this is very personal for John Major.

    He thinks the same people who are now leading lights of the Brexit campaign (who might conceivably win) are the same ones who brought down his premiership in the 1990s.

    He hates them.
    OK ..... I've got it.
    I have never seen him so angry and taking no prisoners. It was very interesting as he clearly can see the dangers in Brexit and must feel leave are gaining ground. I finally posted my wife and my votes today for remain and have this strange feeling that if we vote leave there will be many 'don't blame me, I voted remain' car stickers on display by the Autumn or earlier
  • Listening to Peter Shore speak, Nigel Farage isn't fit to lick his boots.

    Any of these programmes from yesteryear really show the paucity of today's politicos. (Dan the man excepted)

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,313

    I've just caught up with Sir John Major's comment about Boris, IDS, and Gove

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with a hungry python”

    Was anyone else expecting him to say

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with Freddie Starr

    A telling intervention by gentleman John. Let's face it, the EU did him no favours on Black Wednesday - they could have at least tried to mitigate the run on the pound, but instead they decided to sit back and do bugger all. Major was hung out to dry. He owes the EU absolutely nothing but still thinks Brexit would be a disaster. He's a voice of the purest impartiality. We ignore him at our peril.
    Purest impartiality.... titter. :D
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,272
    edited June 2016
    I just heard on the news that 29 million UK tourists visit the EU each year. This was followed by the head of Monarch airlines saying the reason there are now so many cheap flights is in large part down to our membership of the EU and fares would almost certainly go up in the event of Brexit. He said this had been confirmed by Easyjet and Ryanair...

    A Brexiteer then said this wasn't true and the cost of flights would come down.

    Sometimes I don't believe I'm hearing what I'm hearing.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,342

    I've just caught up with Sir John Major's comment about Boris, IDS, and Gove

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with a hungry python”

    Was anyone else expecting him to say

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with Freddie Starr

    A truly extraordinary outburst by John Major, irrespective of his innermost concerns.
    Are any of the major bookies by any chance yet offering odds on him becoming the next leader of the Labour party? This would seem to be his natural home, especially if Cameron were to resign in the wake of a REMAIN defeat and be replaced by one of the Three Musketeers.
    Like I said earlier, this is very personal for John Major.

    He thinks the same people who are now leading lights of the Brexit campaign (who might conceivably win) are the same ones who brought down his premiership in the 1990s.

    He hates them.
    Were Gove, Boris and Priti even MPs back in 1995?
    They certainly weren't supporters of John Major.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,913

    I've just caught up with Sir John Major's comment about Boris, IDS, and Gove

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with a hungry python”

    Was anyone else expecting him to say

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with Freddie Starr

    A truly extraordinary outburst by John Major, irrespective of his innermost concerns.
    Are any of the major bookies by any chance yet offering odds on him becoming the next leader of the Labour party? This would seem to be his natural home, especially if Cameron were to resign in the wake of a REMAIN defeat and be replaced by one of the Three Musketeers.
    Like I said earlier, this is very personal for John Major.

    He thinks the same people who are now leading lights of the Brexit campaign (who might conceivably win) are the same ones who brought down his premiership in the 1990s.

    He hates them.
    Were Gove, Boris and Priti even MPs back in 1995?
    He mentioned IDS and he most certainly was
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,414
    edited June 2016

    Listening to Peter Shore speak, Nigel Farage isn't fit to lick his boots.

    Any of these programmes from yesteryear really show the paucity of today's politicos. (Dan the man excepted)

    Indeed, Jeremy Thorpe is very impressive too.

    You can tell he was a barrister
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131

    On new technology, people have been predicting mass unemployment as a result of 'X' invention for centuries.

    But there is always economic change. Physical labour is becoming increasingly redundant now, and we are becoming more technologically reliant, and a bit too deskbound. As a consequence, we have an obesity crisis, but that is, in turn, fuelling both pharmaceutical innovation and a mini-boom in fitness centres, personal training and gyms.

    A similar thing could happen for medium-level mental jobs in future, like routine office work. So, what will continue to happen, IMHO, is that the trend of people moving to work in leisure and interpersonal ("face contact") industries will continue.

    Ultimately, that means less "work" and more creativity (music/film/science/ sport/novels ) and more challenges, competitions and design of mental/physical games.

    I seriously considering getting a standing desk. I know a number of people who love them, including one who has combined it with a treadmill and potters along all day on the treadmill while typing away.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,236

    I've just caught up with Sir John Major's comment about Boris, IDS, and Gove

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with a hungry python”

    Was anyone else expecting him to say

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with Freddie Starr

    A truly extraordinary outburst by John Major, irrespective of his innermost concerns.
    Are any of the major bookies by any chance yet offering odds on him becoming the next leader of the Labour party? This would seem to be his natural home, especially if Cameron were to resign in the wake of a REMAIN defeat and be replaced by one of the Three Musketeers.
    Like I said earlier, this is very personal for John Major.

    He thinks the same people who are now leading lights of the Brexit campaign (who might conceivably win) are the same ones who brought down his premiership in the 1990s.

    He hates them.
    OK ..... I've got it.
    I have never seen him so angry and taking no prisoners. It was very interesting as he clearly can see the dangers in Brexit and must feel leave are gaining ground. I finally posted my wife and my votes today for remain and have this strange feeling that if we vote leave there will be many 'don't blame me, I voted remain' car stickers on display by the Autumn or earlier
    Funny how he has conveniently forgotten that the EU stitched him up and overruled his opt outs at the time of Maastricht. I suspect it is senility setting in.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,342

    Listening to Peter Shore speak, Nigel Farage isn't fit to lick his boots.

    Peter Shore was outstanding.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,313
    Roger said:

    I just heard on the news that 29 million UK tourists visit the EU each year. This was followed by the head of Monarch airlines saying the reason there are now so many cheap flights is in large part down to our membership of the EU and fares would almost certainly go up in the event of Brexit. He said this had been confirmed by Easyjet and Ryanair...

    A Brexiteer then said this wasn't true and the cost of flights would come down.

    Sometimes I don't believe I'm hearing what I'm hearing.

    Why would flights get more expensive in the event of Brexit? Is the UK going to move further from Europe BOTH physically and metaphorically?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,014

    On new technology, people have been predicting mass unemployment as a result of 'X' invention for centuries.

    But there is always economic change. Physical labour is becoming increasingly redundant now, and we are becoming more technologically reliant, and a bit too deskbound. As a consequence, we have an obesity crisis, but that is, in turn, fuelling both pharmaceutical innovation and a mini-boom in fitness centres, personal training and gyms.

    A similar thing could happen for medium-level mental jobs in future, like routine office work. So, what will continue to happen, IMHO, is that the trend of people moving to work in leisure and interpersonal ("face contact") industries will continue.

    Ultimately, that means less "work" and more creativity (music/film/science/ sport/novels ) and more challenges, competitions and design of mental/physical games.

    23% isn't bad for now. We'll need something like this if AI really takes off.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36454060
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I seriously considering getting a standing desk.

    Do it. It's amazing what a difference it makes.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944

    Catching up with BBC's Marr - Major was brilliant. Quiet, cold anger.

    Yes. I liked Major a lot.

    But then I think about what a disaster he said it would be if we left the ERM.

    Turns out that he was wrong. Very very wrong.

    So I am now on the other side.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,236
    tyson said:


    Richard...the Pope really does transcend. I can't let that one go. He's gone as far as he can go on the conservative issues with the church....he's said there are more important things to focus our attentions on. He cannot go further in one Papacy. Even Francis has his limits.

    I've seen him twice and quite by chance been blessed by him once. He creates such good feeling around him. Outside, my family and very closest friends, I can genuinely say that I love Francis, something that I never could have imagined saying about someone I didn't know.

    Sorry but I find that sort of religious fanaticism completely weird. And it doesn't change the fact he heads one of the most damaging and harmful organisations in the world today.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited June 2016
    David Warburton MP
    Watching #ThePoseidonAdventure - thank goodness Gene Hackman ignored project fear and climbed that Christmas Tree. #VoteLeave

    :smiley:
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,414
    edited June 2016
    Haha, the arguments never change.

    Jeremy Thorpe points out the only leader that wants us to Leave the EC is Idi Amin (and the Commonwealth countries like ANZAC, Canada etc want us to remain)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,090

    I've just caught up with Sir John Major's comment about Boris, IDS, and Gove

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with a hungry python”

    Was anyone else expecting him to say

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with Freddie Starr

    A telling intervention by gentleman John. Let's face it, the EU did him no favours on Black Wednesday - they could have at least tried to mitigate the run on the pound, but instead they decided to sit back and do bugger all. Major was hung out to dry. He owes the EU absolutely nothing but still thinks Brexit would be a disaster. He's a voice of the purest impartiality. We ignore him at our peril.
    With respect, Sir John Major is not impartial on this subject.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,342

    Catching up with BBC's Marr - Major was brilliant. Quiet, cold anger.

    Yes. I liked Major a lot.

    But then I think about what a disaster he said it would be if we left the ERM.

    Turns out that he was wrong. Very very wrong.

    So I am now on the other side.
    IIRC leaving the ERM would be "fools gold".
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,953

    I've just caught up with Sir John Major's comment about Boris, IDS, and Gove

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with a hungry python”

    Was anyone else expecting him to say

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with Freddie Starr

    A truly extraordinary outburst by John Major, irrespective of his innermost concerns.
    Are any of the major bookies by any chance yet offering odds on him becoming the next leader of the Labour party? This would seem to be his natural home, especially if Cameron were to resign in the wake of a REMAIN defeat and be replaced by one of the Three Musketeers.
    Like I said earlier, this is very personal for John Major.

    He thinks the same people who are now leading lights of the Brexit campaign (who might conceivably win) are the same ones who brought down his premiership in the 1990s.

    He hates them.
    Utterly ridiculous. Norman Lamont did more than anyone to torture Major during his doomed premiership, yet the two have subsequently made up. Major is obviously not the kind to bear grudges. You clearly dislike what he has to say. Fair enough. But at least don't question the man's intellectual integrity.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944

    Listening to Peter Shore speak, Nigel Farage isn't fit to lick his boots.

    Well, no. Many of the great political thinkers were and still are for out. Many of them are not particularly palatable (George Galloway, Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Enoch Powell etc) but they are all against the EU for exactly the same reason. Democracy.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,414
    Sean_F said:

    Listening to Peter Shore speak, Nigel Farage isn't fit to lick his boots.

    Peter Shore was outstanding.
    Leave would win this if they had Barbara Castle and Peter Shore were still around.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    I just heard on the news that 29 million UK tourists visit the EU each year. This was followed by the head of Monarch airlines saying the reason there are now so many cheap flights is in large part down to our membership of the EU and fares would almost certainly go up in the event of Brexit. He said this had been confirmed by Easyjet and Ryanair...

    A Brexiteer then said this wasn't true and the cost of flights would come down.

    Sometimes I don't believe I'm hearing what I'm hearing.

    Why would flights get more expensive in the event of Brexit? Is the UK going to move further from Europe BOTH physically and metaphorically?
    The most expensive cost for airlines is fuel - that won't change due to brexit.

    Then landing fees - why would they change?

    Then fees and taxes (for passengers too) - why would they change?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,090

    I've just caught up with Sir John Major's comment about Boris, IDS, and Gove

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with a hungry python”

    Was anyone else expecting him to say

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with Freddie Starr

    A truly extraordinary outburst by John Major, irrespective of his innermost concerns.
    Are any of the major bookies by any chance yet offering odds on him becoming the next leader of the Labour party? This would seem to be his natural home, especially if Cameron were to resign in the wake of a REMAIN defeat and be replaced by one of the Three Musketeers.
    Like I said earlier, this is very personal for John Major.

    He thinks the same people who are now leading lights of the Brexit campaign (who might conceivably win) are the same ones who brought down his premiership in the 1990s.

    He hates them.
    Utterly ridiculous. Norman Lamont did more than anyone to torture Major during his doomed premiership, yet the two have subsequently made up. Major is obviously not the kind to bear grudges. You clearly dislike what he has to say. Fair enough. But at least don't question the man's intellectual integrity.
    No grudges at all:

    https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/739378666019401728
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    I just heard on the news that 29 million UK tourists visit the EU each year. This was followed by the head of Monarch airlines saying the reason there are now so many cheap flights is in large part down to our membership of the EU and fares would almost certainly go up in the event of Brexit. He said this had been confirmed by Easyjet and Ryanair...

    A Brexiteer then said this wasn't true and the cost of flights would come down.

    Sometimes I don't believe I'm hearing what I'm hearing.

    Why would flights get more expensive in the event of Brexit? Is the UK going to move further from Europe BOTH physically and metaphorically?
    The extra smallpox screening measures needed for all outbound UK citizens after Brexit will cost a fortune.

    On the other hand, fewer of us will be flying out - as most of us will be dead and the survivors won't want to fly into the middle of WW3
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,617

    Listening to Peter Shore speak, Nigel Farage isn't fit to lick his boots.

    Well, no. Many of the great political thinkers were and still are for out. Many of them are not particularly palatable (George Galloway, Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Enoch Powell etc) but they are all against the EU for exactly the same reason. Democracy.
    "Great political thinkers" think: X
    Great British Public think: Y
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    Roger said:

    I just heard on the news that 29 million UK tourists visit the EU each year. This was followed by the head of Monarch airlines saying the reason there are now so many cheap flights is in large part down to our membership of the EU and fares would almost certainly go up in the event of Brexit. He said this had been confirmed by Easyjet and Ryanair...

    A Brexiteer then said this wasn't true and the cost of flights would come down.

    Sometimes I don't believe I'm hearing what I'm hearing.


    The reason flights are cheaper is because more people take them meaning there is more people providing them which means more competition. So they all talking crap.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,236
    TOPPING said:

    tyson said:

    GeoffM said:

    tyson said:


    The Daily Telegraph Business News reports on 05/06/16:

    "British voters are succumbing to impulsive gut feelings and irrational reflexes in the Brexit campaign with little regard for the enormous consequences down the road, the world's most influential psychologist has warned.

    Daniel Kahneman, the Israeli Nobel laureate and father of behavioural economics, said the referendum debate is being driven by a destructive psychological process, one that could lead to a grave misjudgment and a downward spiral for British society.

    "The major impression one gets observing the debate is that the reasons for exit are clearly emotional," he said.

    Dear Lord in heaven above, what next?

    OK- we've had ut of sensible and good people to tell us that Brexit is a bad thing.
    I dislike them all and have no interest in or time for their views on any subject.
    Do yBrexit.....
    Entirely unrelated to anything to do with the referendum.

    I do not see the Catholic church as a force for good in the world. I see it as an institution which causes huge amounts of unnecessary suffering and which helps to keep the masses under control. Clearly it is not as bad as some muslim sects but that does not mean it is either good or noble. Francis may himself be a man who tries to do good but his failings (for example on contraception or homosexuality) cannot be forgotten or forgiven.

    So no he does not in any way transcend. He could. But he does not.
    Richard?

    Who is this?

    OK, what have you done with Richard? He may have been irritating, almost always wrong, and charmingly offensive, but I had grown fond of the old dog.
    Why are you confused old chap? I have always been an atheist and think the Catholic church is a thoroughly malign influence on the world. I have refrained from my normal description of monotheistic religions because it upsets too many people on here.
  • OUTOUT Posts: 569

    Sean_F said:

    Listening to Peter Shore speak, Nigel Farage isn't fit to lick his boots.

    Peter Shore was outstanding.
    Leave would win this if they had Barbara Castle and Peter Shore were still around.
    More stuff like this, less Faisal and dim Kay.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,394
    Sean_F said:

    I've just caught up with Sir John Major's comment about Boris, IDS, and Gove

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with a hungry python”

    Was anyone else expecting him to say

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with Freddie Starr

    A truly extraordinary outburst by John Major, irrespective of his innermost concerns.
    Are any of the major bookies by any chance yet offering odds on him becoming the next leader of the Labour party? This would seem to be his natural home, especially if Cameron were to resign in the wake of a REMAIN defeat and be replaced by one of the Three Musketeers.
    Like I said earlier, this is very personal for John Major.

    He thinks the same people who are now leading lights of the Brexit campaign (who might conceivably win) are the same ones who brought down his premiership in the 1990s.

    He hates them.
    Were Gove, Boris and Priti even MPs back in 1995?
    They certainly weren't supporters of John Major.
    Although Priti did join the Tories while he was PM, then headed the Press Office for Referendum Party from 1995 to 1997, then rejoined the Tories.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,313

    Sean_F said:

    I've just caught up with Sir John Major's comment about Boris, IDS, and Gove

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with a hungry python”

    Was anyone else expecting him to say

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with Freddie Starr

    A truly extraordinary outburst by John Major, irrespective of his innermost concerns.
    Are any of the major bookies by any chance yet offering odds on him becoming the next leader of the Labour party? This would seem to be his natural home, especially if Cameron were to resign in the wake of a REMAIN defeat and be replaced by one of the Three Musketeers.
    Like I said earlier, this is very personal for John Major.

    He thinks the same people who are now leading lights of the Brexit campaign (who might conceivably win) are the same ones who brought down his premiership in the 1990s.

    He hates them.
    Were Gove, Boris and Priti even MPs back in 1995?
    They certainly weren't supporters of John Major.
    Although Priti did join the Tories while he was PM, then headed the Press Office for Referendum Party from 1995 to 1997, then rejoined the Tories.
    part time TPD? :D
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,913
    Tim_B said:

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    I just heard on the news that 29 million UK tourists visit the EU each year. This was followed by the head of Monarch airlines saying the reason there are now so many cheap flights is in large part down to our membership of the EU and fares would almost certainly go up in the event of Brexit. He said this had been confirmed by Easyjet and Ryanair...

    A Brexiteer then said this wasn't true and the cost of flights would come down.

    Sometimes I don't believe I'm hearing what I'm hearing.

    Why would flights get more expensive in the event of Brexit? Is the UK going to move further from Europe BOTH physically and metaphorically?
    The most expensive cost for airlines is fuel - that won't change due to brexit.

    Then landing fees - why would they change?

    Then fees and taxes (for passengers too) - why would they change?
    With respect I think the owners of Monarch, Easyjet and Ryanair know far more than you do on this subject.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    edited June 2016

    Listening to Peter Shore speak, Nigel Farage isn't fit to lick his boots.

    In terms of oratory very few modern politicians are, Darth Eagles, and that includes your hero. Especially when you consider the likes of Peter Shore never had speech writers or media handlers. Our current crop of politicians are pygmies standing on the shoulders of giants.

    Of course, if you want the master class then listen to Churchill in 1940 (it's all on YouTube somewhere) , but for full effect read up on the context beforehand. A man who takes over the reins in dark times, against the wishes of nearly half of the cabinet and a very large chunk of his own party, to say nothing of the opposition. Yet within a month, by the power of his voice alone, he has united his cabinet behind him (including the emasculation of the Halifax clique) and has the full backing of Parliament and the country. Now that is oratory, Cameron isn't fit to lick his boots.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    Sean_F said:

    Catching up with BBC's Marr - Major was brilliant. Quiet, cold anger.

    Yes. I liked Major a lot.

    But then I think about what a disaster he said it would be if we left the ERM.

    Turns out that he was wrong. Very very wrong.

    So I am now on the other side.
    IIRC leaving the ERM would be "fools gold".
    Quite. It turns out that we were all fools given gold for 13 years.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,090

    On new technology, people have been predicting mass unemployment as a result of 'X' invention for centuries.

    But there is always economic change. Physical labour is becoming increasingly redundant now, and we are becoming more technologically reliant, and a bit too deskbound. As a consequence, we have an obesity crisis, but that is, in turn, fuelling both pharmaceutical innovation and a mini-boom in fitness centres, personal training and gyms.

    A similar thing could happen for medium-level mental jobs in future, like routine office work. So, what will continue to happen, IMHO, is that the trend of people moving to work in leisure and interpersonal ("face contact") industries will continue.

    Ultimately, that means less "work" and more creativity (music/film/science/ sport/novels ) and more challenges, competitions and design of mental/physical games.

    I seriously considering getting a standing desk. I know a number of people who love them, including one who has combined it with a treadmill and potters along all day on the treadmill while typing away.
    My osteopath recommended the same for me.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,534
    OUT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Listening to Peter Shore speak, Nigel Farage isn't fit to lick his boots.

    Peter Shore was outstanding.
    Leave would win this if they had Barbara Castle and Peter Shore were still around.
    More stuff like this, less Faisal and dim Kay.
    Jeremy Thorpe very theatrical, Heath behind him
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,090

    On new technology, people have been predicting mass unemployment as a result of 'X' invention for centuries.

    But there is always economic change. Physical labour is becoming increasingly redundant now, and we are becoming more technologically reliant, and a bit too deskbound. As a consequence, we have an obesity crisis, but that is, in turn, fuelling both pharmaceutical innovation and a mini-boom in fitness centres, personal training and gyms.

    A similar thing could happen for medium-level mental jobs in future, like routine office work. So, what will continue to happen, IMHO, is that the trend of people moving to work in leisure and interpersonal ("face contact") industries will continue.

    Ultimately, that means less "work" and more creativity (music/film/science/ sport/novels ) and more challenges, competitions and design of mental/physical games.

    23% isn't bad for now. We'll need something like this if AI really takes off.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36454060
    BBC news report tickled me: it just looks like a lot of 80s music fans who enjoy doing "The Robot".
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,534

    TOPPING said:

    tyson said:

    GeoffM said:

    tyson said:


    The Daily Telegraph Business News reports on 05/06/16:

    "British voters are succumbing to impulsive gut feelings and irrational reflexes in the Brexit campaign with little regard for the enormous consequences down the road, the world's most influential psychologist has warned.

    Daniel Kahneman, the Israeli Nobel laureate and father of behavioural economics, said the referendum debate is being driven by a destructive psychological process, one that could lead to a grave misjudgment and a downward spiral for British society.

    "The major impression one gets observing the debate is that the reasons for exit are clearly emotional," he said.

    Dear Lord in heaven above, what next?

    OK- we've had ut of sensible and good people to tell us that Brexit is a bad thing.
    I dislike them all and have no interest in or time for their views on any subject.
    Do yBrexit.....
    Entirely unrelated to anything to do with the referendum.

    I do not see the Catholic church as a force for good in the world. I see it as an institution which causes huge amounts of unnecessary suffering and which helps to keep the masses under control. Clearly it is not as bad as some muslim sects but that does not mean it is either good or noble. Francis may himself be a man who tries to do good but his failings (for example on contraception or homosexuality) cannot be forgotten or forgiven.

    So no he does not in any way transcend. He could. But he does not.
    Richard?

    Who is this?

    OK, what have you done with Richard? He may have been irritating, almost always wrong, and charmingly offensive, but I had grown fond of the old dog.
    Why are you confused old chap? I have always been an atheist and think the Catholic church is a thoroughly malign influence on the world. I have refrained from my normal description of monotheistic religions because it upsets too many people on here.
    Foodbanks, CAFOD, some of the greatest art and architecture in the world, all from or financed by the Catholic Church
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,313

    Tim_B said:

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    I just heard on the news that 29 million UK tourists visit the EU each year. This was followed by the head of Monarch airlines saying the reason there are now so many cheap flights is in large part down to our membership of the EU and fares would almost certainly go up in the event of Brexit. He said this had been confirmed by Easyjet and Ryanair...

    A Brexiteer then said this wasn't true and the cost of flights would come down.

    Sometimes I don't believe I'm hearing what I'm hearing.

    Why would flights get more expensive in the event of Brexit? Is the UK going to move further from Europe BOTH physically and metaphorically?
    The most expensive cost for airlines is fuel - that won't change due to brexit.

    Then landing fees - why would they change?

    Then fees and taxes (for passengers too) - why would they change?
    With respect I think the owners of Monarch, Easyjet and Ryanair know far more than you do on this subject.
    Or they are pushing their agenda? Still haven't heard why it would push the prices up.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944

    Sean_F said:

    Listening to Peter Shore speak, Nigel Farage isn't fit to lick his boots.

    Peter Shore was outstanding.
    Leave would win this if they had Barbara Castle and Peter Shore were still around.
    Is that Barbara Castle of the equal pay act? The one that has nothing to do with the EU?

    Vote Leave should perhaps put some of that online.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,477

    tyson said:


    Richard...the Pope really does transcend. I can't let that one go. He's gone as far as he can go on the conservative issues with the church....he's said there are more important things to focus our attentions on. He cannot go further in one Papacy. Even Francis has his limits.

    I've seen him twice and quite by chance been blessed by him once. He creates such good feeling around him. Outside, my family and very closest friends, I can genuinely say that I love Francis, something that I never could have imagined saying about someone I didn't know.

    Sorry but I find that sort of religious fanaticism completely weird. And it doesn't change the fact he heads one of the most damaging and harmful organisations in the world today.
    Tyson hasn't expressed anything fanatical, and your casual use of the word to describe a very common religious sentiment undermines whatever point you're trying to make.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,953

    I've just caught up with Sir John Major's comment about Boris, IDS, and Gove

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with a hungry python”

    Was anyone else expecting him to say

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with Freddie Starr

    A telling intervention by gentleman John. Let's face it, the EU did him no favours on Black Wednesday - they could have at least tried to mitigate the run on the pound, but instead they decided to sit back and do bugger all. Major was hung out to dry. He owes the EU absolutely nothing but still thinks Brexit would be a disaster. He's a voice of the purest impartiality. We ignore him at our peril.
    With respect, Sir John Major is not impartial on this subject.
    I know this is hard (I was a rabid eurosceptic myself for years), but some people, on balance, have come to the rationalized conclusion that continuing Britain's membership of the European Union might, just might, be in the national interest. We're not all driven by some kind of neurosis.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,090

    Tim_B said:

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    I just heard on the news that 29 million UK tourists visit the EU each year. This was followed by the head of Monarch airlines saying the reason there are now so many cheap flights is in large part down to our membership of the EU and fares would almost certainly go up in the event of Brexit. He said this had been confirmed by Easyjet and Ryanair...

    A Brexiteer then said this wasn't true and the cost of flights would come down.

    Sometimes I don't believe I'm hearing what I'm hearing.

    Why would flights get more expensive in the event of Brexit? Is the UK going to move further from Europe BOTH physically and metaphorically?
    The most expensive cost for airlines is fuel - that won't change due to brexit.

    Then landing fees - why would they change?

    Then fees and taxes (for passengers too) - why would they change?
    With respect I think the owners of Monarch, Easyjet and Ryanair know far more than you do on this subject.
    With respect I think the owners of Monarch, Easyjet and Ryanair don't want any potential disruption to the structure of their existing business model.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    Tim_B said:

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    I just heard on the news that 29 million UK tourists visit the EU each year. This was followed by the head of Monarch airlines saying the reason there are now so many cheap flights is in large part down to our membership of the EU and fares would almost certainly go up in the event of Brexit. He said this had been confirmed by Easyjet and Ryanair...

    A Brexiteer then said this wasn't true and the cost of flights would come down.

    Sometimes I don't believe I'm hearing what I'm hearing.

    Why would flights get more expensive in the event of Brexit? Is the UK going to move further from Europe BOTH physically and metaphorically?
    The most expensive cost for airlines is fuel - that won't change due to brexit.

    Then landing fees - why would they change?

    Then fees and taxes (for passengers too) - why would they change?
    With respect I think the owners of Monarch, Easyjet and Ryanair know far more than you do on this subject.
    Appeal to authority.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    TOPPING said:

    Listening to Peter Shore speak, Nigel Farage isn't fit to lick his boots.

    Well, no. Many of the great political thinkers were and still are for out. Many of them are not particularly palatable (George Galloway, Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Enoch Powell etc) but they are all against the EU for exactly the same reason. Democracy.
    "Great political thinkers" think: X
    Great British Public think: Y
    True in many ways bit we will see what happens this time.

  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    Tim_B said:

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    I just heard on the news that 29 million UK tourists visit the EU each year. This was followed by the head of Monarch airlines saying the reason there are now so many cheap flights is in large part down to our membership of the EU and fares would almost certainly go up in the event of Brexit. He said this had been confirmed by Easyjet and Ryanair...

    A Brexiteer then said this wasn't true and the cost of flights would come down.

    Sometimes I don't believe I'm hearing what I'm hearing.

    Why would flights get more expensive in the event of Brexit? Is the UK going to move further from Europe BOTH physically and metaphorically?
    The most expensive cost for airlines is fuel - that won't change due to brexit.

    Then landing fees - why would they change?

    Then fees and taxes (for passengers too) - why would they change?
    With respect I think the owners of Monarch, Easyjet and Ryanair know far more than you do on this subject.
    IAG beg to differ.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited June 2016

    Tim_B said:

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    I just heard on the news that 29 million UK tourists visit the EU each year. This was followed by the head of Monarch airlines saying the reason there are now so many cheap flights is in large part down to our membership of the EU and fares would almost certainly go up in the event of Brexit. He said this had been confirmed by Easyjet and Ryanair...

    A Brexiteer then said this wasn't true and the cost of flights would come down.

    Sometimes I don't believe I'm hearing what I'm hearing.

    Why would flights get more expensive in the event of Brexit? Is the UK going to move further from Europe BOTH physically and metaphorically?
    The most expensive cost for airlines is fuel - that won't change due to brexit.

    Then landing fees - why would they change?

    Then fees and taxes (for passengers too) - why would they change?
    With respect I think the owners of Monarch, Easyjet and Ryanair know far more than you do on this subject.
    Other than their passenger seat mile projections, of which I have no knowledge, it's not a complex equation. The question is do they have an axe to grind.

    All things considered, not a very helpful contribution on your part, neither adding information nor elucidation.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,534
    edited June 2016

    Listening to Peter Shore speak, Nigel Farage isn't fit to lick his boots.

    In terms of oratory very few modern politicians are, Darth Eagles, and that includes your hero. Especially when you consider the likes of Peter Shore never had speech writers or media handlers. Our current crop of politicians are pygmies standing on the shoulders of giants.

    Of course, if you want the master class then listen to Churchill in 1940 (it's all on YouTube somewhere) , but for full effect read up on the context beforehand. A man who takes over the reins in dark times, against the wishes of nearly half of the cabinet and a very large chunk of his own party, to say nothing of the opposition. Yet within a month, by the power of his voice alone, he has united his cabinet behind him (including the emasculation of the Halifax clique) and has the full backing of Parliament and the country. Now that is oratory, Cameron isn't fit to lick his boots.
    Though in Churchill's time there was no TV, no email, no internet, no text message, no social media, no 24 hour news, only the wireless and the public meeting which made oratory more important than today
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,272
    edited June 2016
    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    I just heard on the news that 29 million UK tourists visit the EU each year. This was followed by the head of Monarch airlines saying the reason there are now so many cheap flights is in large part down to our membership of the EU and fares would almost certainly go up in the event of Brexit. He said this had been confirmed by Easyjet and Ryanair...

    A Brexiteer then said this wasn't true and the cost of flights would come down.

    Sometimes I don't believe I'm hearing what I'm hearing.

    Why would flights get more expensive in the event of Brexit? Is the UK going to move further from Europe BOTH physically and metaphorically?
    I haven't the faintest idea but if the head of the airlines say it's so then the chances are that it is. One of the really unpleasant features of this referendum is the way everyone's integrity is impugned. To the Brexiteers everyone's a liar.

    If this is a sample of a future under the Brexiteers I think I'd sooner have Corbyn.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,090

    I've just caught up with Sir John Major's comment about Boris, IDS, and Gove

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with a hungry python”

    Was anyone else expecting him to say

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with Freddie Starr

    A telling intervention by gentleman John. Let's face it, the EU did him no favours on Black Wednesday - they could have at least tried to mitigate the run on the pound, but instead they decided to sit back and do bugger all. Major was hung out to dry. He owes the EU absolutely nothing but still thinks Brexit would be a disaster. He's a voice of the purest impartiality. We ignore him at our peril.
    With respect, Sir John Major is not impartial on this subject.
    I know this is hard (I was a rabid eurosceptic myself for years), but some people, on balance, have come to the rationalized conclusion that continuing Britain's membership of the European Union might, just might, be in the national interest. We're not all driven by some kind of neurosis.
    It's you who are using words like rabid and neurosis, not me.

    But if you think John Major isn't emotionally invested in this campaign, we will just have to agree to disagree.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,313
    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    I just heard on the news that 29 million UK tourists visit the EU each year. This was followed by the head of Monarch airlines saying the reason there are now so many cheap flights is in large part down to our membership of the EU and fares would almost certainly go up in the event of Brexit. He said this had been confirmed by Easyjet and Ryanair...

    A Brexiteer then said this wasn't true and the cost of flights would come down.

    Sometimes I don't believe I'm hearing what I'm hearing.

    Why would flights get more expensive in the event of Brexit? Is the UK going to move further from Europe BOTH physically and metaphorically?
    I haven't the faintest idea but if the head of the airlines say it's so then the chances are that it is. One of the really unpleasant features of this referendum is the way everyone's integrity is impugned. to the Brexiteers everyone is a liar.

    If this is a sample of a future under the Brexiteers I think I'd sooner have Corbyn.
    Did the head of the airlines say why, or do we just have to take their word for it?
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    MP_SE said:

    Tim_B said:

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    I just heard on the news that 29 million UK tourists visit the EU each year. This was followed by the head of Monarch airlines saying the reason there are now so many cheap flights is in large part down to our membership of the EU and fares would almost certainly go up in the event of Brexit. He said this had been confirmed by Easyjet and Ryanair...

    A Brexiteer then said this wasn't true and the cost of flights would come down.

    Sometimes I don't believe I'm hearing what I'm hearing.

    Why would flights get more expensive in the event of Brexit? Is the UK going to move further from Europe BOTH physically and metaphorically?
    The most expensive cost for airlines is fuel - that won't change due to brexit.

    Then landing fees - why would they change?

    Then fees and taxes (for passengers too) - why would they change?
    With respect I think the owners of Monarch, Easyjet and Ryanair know far more than you do on this subject.
    IAG beg to differ.
    Bilaterals which we would in principle revert to instead of a right to fly anywhere at any time. Always suited price gouging legacy airlines. Do look them up.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,414

    NEW THREAD NEW THREAD

  • Catching up with BBC's Marr - Major was brilliant. Quiet, cold anger.

    Yes. I liked Major a lot.

    But then I think about what a disaster he said it would be if we left the ERM.

    Turns out that he was wrong. Very very wrong.

    So I am now on the other side.
    That was what did it for me too. All that misery and despsir. 15% mortgage rates, reposessions and bankruptcies and unemp,oyment back over three millio. Far,far worse for the man on the proverbial omnibus than the 2008 crash. And for NOTHING.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944

    I've just caught up with Sir John Major's comment about Boris, IDS, and Gove

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with a hungry python”

    Was anyone else expecting him to say

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with Freddie Starr

    A telling intervention by gentleman John. Let's face it, the EU did him no favours on Black Wednesday - they could have at least tried to mitigate the run on the pound, but instead they decided to sit back and do bugger all. Major was hung out to dry. He owes the EU absolutely nothing but still thinks Brexit would be a disaster. He's a voice of the purest impartiality. We ignore him at our peril.
    With respect, Sir John Major is not impartial on this subject.
    I know this is hard (I was a rabid eurosceptic myself for years), but some people, on balance, have come to the rationalized conclusion that continuing Britain's membership of the European Union might, just might, be in the national interest. We're not all driven by some kind of neurosis.
    And likewise some of us who have been in favour of EU membership for years may have, on balance, come to the rational conclusion that we would be better off out without being barking mad.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Sorry, people are bringing up Jeremy Thorpe as an exemplar as a role model? I refer you to Peter Cook's crushing satire of the end of his career:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyos-M48B8U

  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,953

    tyson said:


    Richard...the Pope really does transcend. I can't let that one go. He's gone as far as he can go on the conservative issues with the church....he's said there are more important things to focus our attentions on. He cannot go further in one Papacy. Even Francis has his limits.

    I've seen him twice and quite by chance been blessed by him once. He creates such good feeling around him. Outside, my family and very closest friends, I can genuinely say that I love Francis, something that I never could have imagined saying about someone I didn't know.

    Sorry but I find that sort of religious fanaticism completely weird. And it doesn't change the fact he heads one of the most damaging and harmful organisations in the world today.
    Tyson hasn't expressed anything fanatical, and your casual use of the word to describe a very common religious sentiment undermines whatever point you're trying to make.
    Who gives a flying fig. Had it not been for the, avowedly secular, enlightenment that lot would still be burning us to death. Only a few centuries separate Christianity from ISIS.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,342
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    tyson said:

    GeoffM said:

    tyson said:


    The Daily Telegraph Business News reports on 05/06/16:

    "British voters are succumbing to impulsive gut feelings and irrational reflexes in the Brexit campaign with little regard for the enormous consequences down the road, the world's most influential psychologist has warned.

    Daniel Kahneman, the Israeli Nobel laureate and father of behavioural economics, said the referendum debate is being driven by a destructive psychological process, one that could lead to a grave misjudgment and a downward spiral for British society.

    "The major impression one gets observing the debate is that the reasons for exit are clearly emotional," he said.

    Dear Lord in heaven above, what next?

    OK- we've had ut of sensible and good people to tell us that Brexit is a bad thing.
    I dislike them all and have no interest in or time for their views on any subject.
    Do yBrexit.....
    Entirely unrelated to anything to do with the referendum.

    I do not see the Catholic church as a force for good in the world. I see it as an institution which causes huge amounts of unnecessary suffering and which helps to keep the masses under control. Clearly it is not as bad as some muslim sects but that does not mean it is either good or noble. Francis may himself be a man who tries to do good but his failings (for example on contraception or homosexuality) cannot be forgotten or forgiven.

    So no he does not in any way transcend. He could. But he does not.
    Richard?

    Who is this?

    OK, what have you done with Richard? He may have been irritating, almost always wrong, and charmingly offensive, but I had grown fond of the old dog.
    Why are you confused old chap? I have always been an atheist and think the Catholic church is a thoroughly malign influence on the world. I have refrained from my normal description of monotheistic religions because it upsets too many people on here.
    Foodbanks, CAFOD, some of the greatest art and architecture in the world, all from or financed by the Catholic Church
    Staunch opposition to Communism, as well as some of the more rapacious forms of capitalism.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,913
    RobD said:

    Tim_B said:

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    I just heard on the news that 29 million UK tourists visit the EU each year. This was followed by the head of Monarch airlines saying the reason there are now so many cheap flights is in large part down to our membership of the EU and fares would almost certainly go up in the event of Brexit. He said this had been confirmed by Easyjet and Ryanair...

    A Brexiteer then said this wasn't true and the cost of flights would come down.

    Sometimes I don't believe I'm hearing what I'm hearing.

    Why would flights get more expensive in the event of Brexit? Is the UK going to move further from Europe BOTH physically and metaphorically?
    The most expensive cost for airlines is fuel - that won't change due to brexit.

    Then landing fees - why would they change?

    Then fees and taxes (for passengers too) - why would they change?
    With respect I think the owners of Monarch, Easyjet and Ryanair know far more than you do on this subject.
    Or they are pushing their agenda? Still haven't heard why it would push the prices up.
    Defending their business against increased costs would be their first responsibility
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,534

    Sorry, people are bringing up Jeremy Thorpe as an exemplar as a role model? I refer you to Peter Cook's crushing satire of the end of his career:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyos-M48B8U

    You do not have to be a good role model to be a good orator
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,534
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    tyson said:

    GeoffM said:

    tyson said:


    The Daily Telegraph Business News reports on 05/06/16:

    "British voters are succumbing to impulsive gut feelings and irrational reflexes in the Brexit campaign with little regard for the enormous consequences down the road, the world's most influential psychologist has warned.

    Daniel Kahneman, the Israeli Nobel laureate and father of behavioural economics, said the referendum debate is being driven by a destructive psychological process, one that could lead to a grave misjudgment and a downward spiral for British society.

    "The major impression one gets observing the debate is that the reasons for exit are clearly emotional," he said.

    Dear Lord in heaven above, what next?

    OK- we've had ut of sensible and good people to tell us that Brexit is a bad thing.
    I dislike them all and have no interest in or time for their views on any subject.
    Do yBrexit.....
    Entirely unrelated to anything to do with the referendum.

    I do not see the Catholic church as a force for good in the world. I see it as an institution which causes huge amounts of unnecessary suffering and which helps to keep the masses under control. Clearly it is not as bad as some muslim sects but that does not mean it is either good or noble. Francis may himself be a man who tries to do good but his failings (for example on contraception or homosexuality) cannot be forgotten or forgiven.

    So no he does not in any way transcend. He could. But he does not.
    Richard?

    Who is this?

    OK, what have you done with Richard? He may have been irritating, almost always wrong, and charmingly offensive, but I had grown fond of the old dog.
    Why are you confused old chap? I have always been an atheist and think the Catholic church is a thoroughly malign influence on the world. I have refrained from my normal description of monotheistic religions because it upsets too many people on here.
    Foodbanks, CAFOD, some of the greatest art and architecture in the world, all from or financed by the Catholic Church
    Staunch opposition to Communism, as well as some of the more rapacious forms of capitalism.
    Very true
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited June 2016
    About the one thing I recall about Jeremy Thorpe was some wag opining that "Greater love hath no man than this: he lay down his friends for his life."

    Wasn't he alleged to be gay and involved in a murder plot to kill his alleged gay partner?

    Sorry, people are bringing up Jeremy Thorpe as an exemplar as a role model? I refer you to Peter Cook's crushing satire of the end of his career:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyos-M48B8U

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