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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » There’s a danger of Leave peaking too soon

SystemSystem Posts: 11,704
edited June 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » There’s a danger of Leave peaking too soon

Only the churlish would deny it’s been a very good week for Leave, especially in the opinion polls, I think that’s in part because Leave have been focussing heavily on immigration, and moved away from the economy, where they are perceived to behind Remain. With another poll out tomorrow with Leave ahead, the narrative is changing, and that might not be to Leave’s advantage.

Read the full story here


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    First
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    John McDonnell: Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

    Shadow chancellor says the concept of an unconditional payment to all could prepare country for robotisation of the workforce

    A universal basic income (UBI) is regarded by some on the left as a response to the robotisation of the workforce, which it is feared could replace lower-skilled jobs and exacerbate inequality.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/05/john-mcdonnell-labour-universal-basic-income-welfare-benefits-compass-report

    I can't any problems with this at all...none at all...especially if we are still part of the EU. As for the "robotisation" of the work force, we already have it and and it is less likely to affect the low skilled, it will be middle skilled tasks where computers have made leap and bounds.

    Computer AI can do lots of tasks that we currently deem skilled e.g. pretty good at translation, but we have hardly made any progress on enabling computers to "understand" simple tasks like cleaning and tidying, where things are not clear cut and require a lot of different understanding.

    I would be more concerned if i was just a code monkey than a cleaner.
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    Peaking at same time that 20% of votes (postal) are being cast seems a good idea.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Given the absurdity of Cameron bouncing from "of course we'll be OK and do well outside of the EU if we need to leave" before his deal was struck to the virtual "if we leave the four horsemen of the apocalypse will arrive and the living will envy the dead"* routine now ... it is refreshing to get refreshingly open and honest answers to questions from Gove.

    * May not have used those exact words.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @nickherbertmp: Delighted that @JohnnyMercerMP has declared for Remain. Now 173 Conservative MPs supporting Remain - a very clear majority @ConservativesIN
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,449
    "I could never have signed this treaty!" - Maggie re. Maastricht in the HoL in 1993.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,146
    edited June 2016

    Across their continent - whatever the geography books say.

    You might like to add 'whatever the history books say', 'whatever the economics books say', 'whatever the philosophy books say', 'whatever the literature says'.

    Has there ever been a more openly anti-intellectual movement in British politics?
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    I see the Scottish tennis player has replaced the British one....
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,449

    John McDonnell: Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

    Shadow chancellor says the concept of an unconditional payment to all could prepare country for robotisation of the workforce

    A universal basic income (UBI) is regarded by some on the left as a response to the robotisation of the workforce, which it is feared could replace lower-skilled jobs and exacerbate inequality.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/05/john-mcdonnell-labour-universal-basic-income-welfare-benefits-compass-report

    I can't any problems with this at all...none at all...especially if we are still part of the EU. As for the "robotisation" of the work force, we already have it and and it is less likely to affect the low skilled, it will be middle skilled tasks where computers have made leap and bounds.

    Computer AI can do lots of tasks that we currently deem skilled e.g. pretty good at translation, but we have hardly made any progress on enabling computers to "understand" simple tasks like cleaning and tidying, where things are not clear cut and require a lot of different understanding.

    I would be more concerned if i was just a code monkey than a cleaner.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36454060

    Switzerland 'rejects basic income', poll projections suggest
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    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited June 2016
    REMAIN went for it for 15 weeks.
    LEAVE are only going for it for 4 weeks.

    Now which has the hardest job of maintaining their err election?
    Finbarr S
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,401
    FPT

    ydoethur said:

    I can see this becoming a major political issue in the current fevered climate:

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-pakistan-2016/content/story/1023181.html

    Speaking for myself I have always been uneasy about that conviction because if Amir, Asif and Butt were guilty of a crime, so was the Fake Sheikh and he was never even charged. But the fact remains, if he's given a visa Leave could swipe on it as a sign of softness at the Home Office, despite its irrelevance to any EU issue.

    He's served his sentence and the ECB is backing him getting a visa. I fail to see why he shouldn't under the circumstances.
    Yes and no. The ECB is irrelevant because they would make Murdoch look like a man of integrity. Giles Clarke and Colin Graves would support Jack the Ripper's visa application if they thought there was an advantage for them in it.

    The Home office visa policy is the problem, as he was released from prison less than five years ago and therefore technically is ineligible. Therefore some change of policy would be required.

    Like I say, I wasn't too happy with the original conviction. But tweaking the rules at this moment might easily cause a row.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,584
    Scott_P said:

    @nickherbertmp: Delighted that @JohnnyMercerMP has declared for Remain. Now 173 Conservative MPs supporting Remain - a very clear majority @ConservativesIN

    I see my humongous mancrush on Johnny Mercer shows no signs of abating.
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    AnnaAnna Posts: 59
    If I followed TSE's train of thought above, then Leave attracting more support might not be good for Leave... um... Is there some wishful thinking going on?
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,584
    Anna said:

    If I followed TSE's train of thought above, then Leave attracting more support might not be good for Leave... um... Is there some wishful thinking going on?

    Perhaps you should read the entire piece before commenting.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068
    weejonnie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    hunchman said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Matthew Holehouse
    EU budget "exhausted" . MEPs demand ceilings lifted. Migration bills mount. Woe for Cameron coming. https://t.co/tVQ8nI6sRq

    This needs shouting from the rooftops. Presumably it's just more bad news, the formal announcement of which is being conveniently postponed until after the June 23 Referendum.
    As is the latest Greek debt settlement put back to July. If Gove's words on Sky on Friday night are anything to go by, then leave will be hammering this as part of the economic message. Once again to repeat there is NO STATUS QUO in this referendum as remain would like us to believe.
    Greece is now funded through until September next year. Of course, it's all "extend and pretend", but Greece won't go bust this year, or indeed in the first half of next year.
    From reports below - it isn't Greece going bust - it is the whole EU.
    I was responding specifically to Hunchman's claim that Greece was going bust in July, when the IMF, the ECB and the EU have now agreed funding for it through September next year.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292

    John McDonnell: Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

    Shadow chancellor says the concept of an unconditional payment to all could prepare country for robotisation of the workforce

    A universal basic income (UBI) is regarded by some on the left as a response to the robotisation of the workforce, which it is feared could replace lower-skilled jobs and exacerbate inequality.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/05/john-mcdonnell-labour-universal-basic-income-welfare-benefits-compass-report

    I can't any problems with this at all...none at all...especially if we are still part of the EU. As for the "robotisation" of the work force, we already have it and and it is less likely to affect the low skilled, it will be middle skilled tasks where computers have made leap and bounds.

    Computer AI can do lots of tasks that we currently deem skilled e.g. pretty good at translation, but we have hardly made any progress on enabling computers to "understand" simple tasks like cleaning and tidying, where things are not clear cut and require a lot of different understanding.

    I would be more concerned if i was just a code monkey than a cleaner.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36454060

    Switzerland 'rejects basic income', poll projections suggest
    Not really surprising, as no political party supported it.
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    eekeek Posts: 25,027

    John McDonnell: Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

    Shadow chancellor says the concept of an unconditional payment to all could prepare country for robotisation of the workforce

    A universal basic income (UBI) is regarded by some on the left as a response to the robotisation of the workforce, which it is feared could replace lower-skilled jobs and exacerbate inequality.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/05/john-mcdonnell-labour-universal-basic-income-welfare-benefits-compass-report

    I can't any problems with this at all...none at all...especially if we are still part of the EU. As for the "robotisation" of the work force, we already have it and and it is less likely to affect the low skilled, it will be middle skilled tasks where computers have made leap and bounds.

    Computer AI can do lots of tasks that we currently deem skilled e.g. pretty good at translation, but we have hardly made any progress on enabling computers to "understand" simple tasks like cleaning and tidying, where things are not clear cut and require a lot of different understanding.

    I would be more concerned if i was just a code monkey than a cleaner.

    There are entire professions I would be more concerned about than code monkeys... Law isn't something I would be encouraging a child to enter...
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    Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited June 2016
    Please please please can leave be peaking too soon.......

    As their recent surge in fortunea only started a week ago and people were still writing them off then it seems a bit soon for them to peak.

    All thats really happen is that online have won the online v phone polling battle and people are getting increasingly nervous that even online are underestimating it as increasing reports of labour leavers arrive.

    Dosent help that the main thrust of Remains campaign (project fear) is now a public laughing stock and being openly mocked.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,584
    Anyhoo, back to the tennis, Andy Murray is collapsing like forces of Carthage at Zama.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Whilst I still think Remain will win, my long term prediction of it being 60/40 now looks optimistic for Remain. Could happen, but it seems a bit closer.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,369
    Am interested to know the poll out tomorrow with leave ahead. Why would it be out tomorrow if it is known today
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    Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited June 2016

    Across their continent - whatever the geography books say.

    You might like to add 'whatever the history books say', 'whatever the economics books say', 'whatever the philosophy books say', 'whatever the literature says'.

    Has there ever been a more openly anti-intellectual movement in British politics?
    I dont want 'far away places of which we know little' interfering in our internal affairs, whether for good or ill.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002

    Am interested to know the poll out tomorrow with leave ahead. Why would it be out tomorrow if it is known today

    Because journalists with priveliged information can't keep their traps shut
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    Pulpstar said:

    Am interested to know the poll out tomorrow with leave ahead. Why would it be out tomorrow if it is known today

    Because journalists with priveliged information can't keep their traps shut
    Rofl
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,146

    Across their continent - whatever the geography books say.

    You might like to add 'whatever the history books say', 'whatever the economics books say', 'whatever the philosophy books say', 'whatever the literature says'.

    Has there ever been a more openly anti-intellectual movement in British politics?
    I dont want 'far away places of which we know little' interfering in our internal affairs, whether for good or ill.
    You do realise that you're quoting an apologia for appeasement of the Nazis?
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    eek said:

    John McDonnell: Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

    Shadow chancellor says the concept of an unconditional payment to all could prepare country for robotisation of the workforce

    A universal basic income (UBI) is regarded by some on the left as a response to the robotisation of the workforce, which it is feared could replace lower-skilled jobs and exacerbate inequality.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/05/john-mcdonnell-labour-universal-basic-income-welfare-benefits-compass-report

    I can't any problems with this at all...none at all...especially if we are still part of the EU. As for the "robotisation" of the work force, we already have it and and it is less likely to affect the low skilled, it will be middle skilled tasks where computers have made leap and bounds.

    Computer AI can do lots of tasks that we currently deem skilled e.g. pretty good at translation, but we have hardly made any progress on enabling computers to "understand" simple tasks like cleaning and tidying, where things are not clear cut and require a lot of different understanding.

    I would be more concerned if i was just a code monkey than a cleaner.

    There are entire professions I would be more concerned about than code monkeys... Law isn't something I would be encouraging a child to enter...
    You are Richard Susskind and I claim my Hunchman prize for inaccurate predictions.

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    dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596

    Anna said:

    If I followed TSE's train of thought above, then Leave attracting more support might not be good for Leave... um... Is there some wishful thinking going on?

    Perhaps you should read the entire piece before commenting.
    to be fair, though, you could write a piece with the same polling data as "has remain peaked too soon"?
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    Steven_WhaleySteven_Whaley Posts: 313
    edited June 2016
    Surely Gove made the 4 years comment to try to win over some of the softer Remainers. The kind of people who are not really pro-EU but fear the impact of an abrupt and harsh landing if we leave. I doubt if anyone already in the Leave camp much cares if Brexit takes 4 years, 4 months, 4 weeks, 4 days, 4 hours, 4 minutes or 4 seconds so long as they win on the day?
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    ydoethur said:

    I can see this becoming a major political issue in the current fevered climate:

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-pakistan-2016/content/story/1023181.html

    Speaking for myself I have always been uneasy about that conviction because if Amir, Asif and Butt were guilty of a crime, so was the Fake Sheikh and he was never even charged. But the fact remains, if he's given a visa Leave could swipe on it as a sign of softness at the Home Office, despite its irrelevance to any EU issue.

    He's served his sentence and the ECB is backing him getting a visa. I fail to see why he shouldn't under the circumstances.
    Yes and no. The ECB is irrelevant because they would make Murdoch look like a man of integrity. Giles Clarke and Colin Graves would support Jack the Ripper's visa application if they thought there was an advantage for them in it.

    The Home office visa policy is the problem, as he was released from prison less than five years ago and therefore technically is ineligible. Therefore some change of policy would be required.

    Like I say, I wasn't too happy with the original conviction. But tweaking the rules at this moment might easily cause a row.
    Doesn't the policy give an element of discretion? Which is how this is to be decided?

    I think it is entirely relevant if the ECB back the decision to grant a visa, it provides a level of cover as to why it [almost certainly] will be given. The simple fact is that the world of sport is never treated just like any normal business.

    If the discretion that is allowed under the system is exercised to grant a visa then I think most people will brush that off as sport being sport.

    It will be a very Sir Humphrey-style "brave" campaign that tries to run on a policy of excluding top level international sporting athletes. Especially given it has nothing to do with the EU anyway.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,584
    Balls, Gove has recanted, at least he is a master of his brief.

    https://twitter.com/craigawoodhouse/status/739455361808224256
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Surely Gove made the 4 years comment to try to win over some of the softer Remainers.

    No. he just screwed up
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    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391

    Across their continent - whatever the geography books say.

    You might like to add 'whatever the history books say', 'whatever the economics books say', 'whatever the philosophy books say', 'whatever the literature says'.

    Has there ever been a more openly anti-intellectual movement in British politics?
    It's anti the argument from authority, comfortably more than any previous movement in British politics, yes. Because the other side, more than any movement in British politics, has been entirely unwilling to make it's own case and instead asks us all to simply accept that the thinking has been subcontracted and done for us.
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    "Thanks to Dawdon Miners' Social Welfare Club in Co. Durham for showing their support to #VoteLeave and #TakeControl "


    https://mobile.twitter.com/vote_leave/status/739447094726037504
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    FPT @ dugarbandier "is there any difference between a behaviour and a culture. I'd contend that they are not significantly different."

    Yes. Culture is based on values which beget behaviours. There is much literature on this.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    Mr. Eagles, better to correct an error than persist and transform an error into a mistake.
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    Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited June 2016

    Across their continent - whatever the geography books say.

    You might like to add 'whatever the history books say', 'whatever the economics books say', 'whatever the philosophy books say', 'whatever the literature says'.

    Has there ever been a more openly anti-intellectual movement in British politics?
    I dont want 'far away places of which we know little' interfering in our internal affairs, whether for good or ill.
    You do realise that you're quoting an apologia for appeasement of the Nazis?
    Intervening to stop such people being brutalised by aggresive neighbour states is one tbing, just as it was when Iraq invaded Kuwait.

    Letting such states whether in Europe or Kuwait interfere with our internal affairs and strike down acts of parliament is another.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,562

    Across their continent - whatever the geography books say.

    You might like to add 'whatever the history books say', 'whatever the economics books say', 'whatever the philosophy books say', 'whatever the literature says'.

    Has there ever been a more openly anti-intellectual movement in British politics?
    It has nothing to do with anti-intellectualism, and everything to do with the slowly dawning realisation that one must utilise one's own brain to make decisions, rather than simply relying upon someone in a white coat and a lanyard to do all the thinking. 'Stronger In' is the anti-intellectual movement - anti anyone actually using their own intellect. 'Scientists for in' is surely the nadir of this approach. 'Don't worry your heads dears, we know best.'
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    OUTOUT Posts: 569
    Re comparisons to indyref. 300 years of union, shared language/currency/armed forces.
    Cameron fighting with every fibre of his being.
    Postponing PMQ's to send mp's up to Scotland.
    All newspapers bar one.
    The Queen.
    Plenty more.

    Ammunition missing in this fight.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,449
    Murray loses second set 6-1 after winning first set 6-3.

    Part-British, part-Scottish performance, so far :)
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Scott_P said:

    Surely Gove made the 4 years comment to try to win over some of the softer Remainers.

    No. he just screwed up
    Yet some see this idiot as a potential Prime Minister
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,562
    Scott_P said:

    Surely Gove made the 4 years comment to try to win over some of the softer Remainers.

    No. he just screwed up
    If Leave win, it will be in spite of Vote Leave, much as I admire many individuals within the campaign.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,146

    Across their continent - whatever the geography books say.

    You might like to add 'whatever the history books say', 'whatever the economics books say', 'whatever the philosophy books say', 'whatever the literature says'.

    Has there ever been a more openly anti-intellectual movement in British politics?
    I dont want 'far away places of which we know little' interfering in our internal affairs, whether for good or ill.
    You do realise that you're quoting an apologia for appeasement of the Nazis?
    Intervening to stop such people being brutalised by aggresive neighbour states is one tbing, just as it was when Iraq invaded Kuwait.

    Letting such states whether in Europe or Kuwait interfere with our internal affaira and strike down acts of parliament is another.
    Yes, but the point is that the Neville Chamberlain quote which you seem fond of doesn't mean what your think it does. That a British government which regarded the Hindu Kush as a vital national interest should talk in such terms to justify handing Czechoslovakia to Hitler was shamefully cynical, not something to bandy around as proof of our detachment from mainland Europe.
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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Philip_Thompson


    'Doesn't the policy give an element of discretion? Which is how this is to be decided? '


    Why should there be any discretion for a criminal that trashed an entire test series.

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    Tennis: BBC livefeed makes a terrible mistake.

    Cnut or Canute are generally accepted spellings. Kanut just looks wrong, like Boudiseeya.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068

    Balls, Gove has recanted, at least he is a master of his brief.

    https://twitter.com/craigawoodhouse/status/739455361808224256

    I suspect we would have a transitional treaty, that would be negotiated quickly, leave much unchanged, and have a fixed term of - say - five years.

    This period would be used to hammer out a permanent settlement.
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    dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    MTimT said:

    FPT @ dugarbandier "is there any difference between a behaviour and a culture. I'd contend that they are not significantly different."

    Yes. Culture is based on values which beget behaviours. There is much literature on this.

    literature of what kind? surely you could just as easily say "behaviour is based on values which together consitute culture"?

    while you could define a culture in the way that you do, I can't see that there's any reason to consider that the only definition. Can you really say that a culture is anything more than a kind of behaviour?
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292

    Tennis: BBC livefeed makes a terrible mistake.

    Cnut or Canute are generally accepted spellings. Kanut just looks wrong, like Boudiseeya.

    I don't know about that, but I think we can say Murray is fcuk'ed....
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,369
    edited June 2016
    The Swiss have voted 3-1 against a basic income proposal, as expected. A little less intuitively in view of current European trends, they have approved by 2-1 a liberalised asylum law designed to help process asylum claims more quickly and helpfully, which was opposed by the SVP (the Swiss counterpart to the AfD). The Government has warned people to expect more applications in the coming year - the Swiss seem to have shrugged and said "OK, we'd better do it efficiently, then".. A third referendum rejected by 2-1 a proposal to impose restrictions on public service salaries and introduce greater consumer rights for public service users - which is being interpreted as reflecting a general feeling that public services work OK there so there's no need for further regulation.

    The reason I like the Swiss system is that it forces voters to think about proposals in detail. The public service referendum had a large polling lead initially and was supported by all the major parties, but on closer study of the proposals people felt that there wasn't any reason to mess with the existing services. Swiss voters are not predictably right- or left-wing, but they are cautious about change.
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    LadyBucketLadyBucket Posts: 590
    I see Johnny Mercer has come out for Remain. Didn't see that coming and given that his constituents are mostly Leave (allegedly) then it was quite brave. I'm not sure who put him up to going on TV but it won't have done his promotion prospects any harm. As he was probably going to get promoted sometime in the future anyway, I can't help feeling a tad disappointed in him.

    I'm not impressed that there are still apparently just over 20 who are undecided. This says a lot about them, if they haven't made their minds up yet. Perhaps the ducking stool, or some water-boarding might help!
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    If there's a narrow Leave win and Brexit takes a few years then it's possible, given the age profiles of the two sides, that when we do leave there will be more people alive who voted to remain than voted to leave. Not that that makes any moral difference to the outcome as a win is a win and we Remainers would respect that - it would just be a curious footnote in history. :)
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    Mr. Urquhart, Murray is merely luring Djokovic into an incredibly realistic sense of false security.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    Did Andy Murray peak too soon ?
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    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    Yes sure....

    The thing is the Brexit crowd are completely clueless about how to leave, when to leave and what the hell happens after they vote out.

    Make it up as they go along chumps....
    rcs1000 said:

    Balls, Gove has recanted, at least he is a master of his brief.

    https://twitter.com/craigawoodhouse/status/739455361808224256

    I suspect we would have a transitional treaty, that would be negotiated quickly, leave much unchanged, and have a fixed term of - say - five years.

    This period would be used to hammer out a permanent settlement.
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    LadyBucketLadyBucket Posts: 590

    Balls, Gove has recanted, at least he is a master of his brief.

    https://twitter.com/craigawoodhouse/status/739455361808224256

    Everyone is getting knackered, so expect more mistakes as the finishing line approaches.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    As an aside, Murray's better on grass than clay, I think. If Djokovic wins, Murray for Wimbledon may be worth considering.
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    dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596

    The Swiss have voted 3-1 against a basic income proposal, as expected. A little less intuitively in view of current European trends, they have approved by 2-1 a liberalised asylum law designed to help process asylum claims more quickly and helpfully, which was opposed by the SVP (the Swiss counterpart to the AfD). The Government has warned people to expect more applications in the coming year - the Swiss seem to have shrugged and said "OK, we'd better do it efficiently, then".. A third referendum rejected by 2-1 a proposal to impose restrictions on public service salaries and introduce greater consumer rights for public service users - which is being interpreted as reflecting a general feeling that public services work OK there so there's no need for further regulation.

    The reason I like the Swiss system is that it forces voters to think about proposals in detail. The public service referendum had a large polling lead initially and was supported by all the major parties, but on closer study of the proposals people felt that there wasn't any reason to mess with the existing services. Swiss voters are not predictably right- or left-wing, but they are cautious about change.

    what do you think about basic income ideas, Nick? Must admit I didn't read about this referendum till today. Maybe the swiss are ahead of the game?
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,584

    Mr. Urquhart, Murray is merely luring Djokovic into an incredibly realistic sense of false security.

    Like Rome did with Carthage at Cannae?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    rcs1000 said:

    I suspect we would have a transitional treaty, that would be negotiated quickly, leave much unchanged, and have a fixed term of - say - five years.

    Even if there were a mechanism to achieve such a thing (which there does not appear to be), 5 more years of "unlimited immigration" will not fly, especially during an election

    Apart from that, brilliant plan
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    peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,875
    edited June 2016
    5 Years minimum dealing with our exit from the EU was what I suggested here a couple of days ago and this has now been more or less confirmed by Gove.

    Plenty of time for some gentle persuasion by the Germans and others methinks, equally plenty of time for some changes of mind on our part.

    Equally it should be said, plenty of time for the UK to set up its own trade deals across the world.

    Overall this timescale probably helps LEAVE, since it provides plenty of wriggle room for us to remain within the EU if, by magic, it were to reform and/or we were able to secure a better deal.
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    dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    tyson said:

    Yes sure....

    The thing is the Brexit crowd are completely clueless about how to leave, when to leave and what the hell happens after they vote out.

    Make it up as they go along chumps....

    except the eu is indeed making it up as they (we) go along, hence extend and pretend, and so on. maybe all pragmatic politics is indeed making it up as you go along..
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,584
    edited June 2016

    5 Years minimum dealing with our exit from the EU was what I suggested here a couple of days ago and this has now been more or less confirmed by Gove.

    Plenty of time for some gentle persuasion by the Germans and others methinks, equally plenty of time for some changes of mind on our part.

    Equally it should be said, plenty of time for the UK to set up its own trade deals across the world.

    Overall this timescale probably helps LEAVE, since it provides plenty of wriggle room for us to remain within the EU if, by magic, it were to reform and/or we were able to secure a better deal.

    All those PBers that criticised Alastair Meeks for pointing out these deals take several years, not just a couple of years are going to feel even more stupid now.
  • Options
    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    Tennis: BBC livefeed makes a terrible mistake.

    Cnut or Canute are generally accepted spellings. Kanut just looks wrong, like Boudiseeya.

    On his coins it is CNUT . And it is BOUDICCA
  • Options
    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited June 2016
    Why would REMAIN think it wise to use up a key media slot on the Marr show with a Conservative figure head in John Major, to create headlines about him being rude about Boris? Instead what they should have done is have a pillar of the Labour party go on and give to Labour voters the reasons why they should vote REMAIN.

    It just looks like internal point scoring by frustrated REMAIN folk in Downing street (such as Osborne and Cameron) watching as their campaign falls apart. A toddler's temper tantrum.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_P said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I suspect we would have a transitional treaty, that would be negotiated quickly, leave much unchanged, and have a fixed term of - say - five years.

    Even if there were a mechanism to achieve such a thing (which there does not appear to be), 5 more years of "unlimited immigration" will not fly, especially during an election

    Apart from that, brilliant plan
    There is such a mechanism, Article 50 specifically provides for new arrangements to be made.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292

    Mr. Urquhart, Murray is merely luring Djokovic into an incredibly realistic sense of false security.


    I some how don't think this collapse has anything to do with any dodgy Russians...
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    5 Years minimum dealing with our exit from the EU was what I suggested here a couple of days ago and this has now been more or less confirmed by Gove.

    Plenty of time for some gentle persuasion by the Germans and others methinks, equally plenty of time for some changes of mind on our part.

    Equally it should be said, plenty of time for the UK to set up its own trade deals across the world.

    Overall this timescale probably helps LEAVE, since it provides plenty of wriggle room for us to remain within the EU if, by magic, it were to reform and/or we were able to secure a better deal.

    How do you get through an election?

    "Why have we not left yet?"
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,401
    eek said:

    John McDonnell: Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

    Shadow chancellor says the concept of an unconditional payment to all could prepare country for robotisation of the workforce

    A universal basic income (UBI) is regarded by some on the left as a response to the robotisation of the workforce, which it is feared could replace lower-skilled jobs and exacerbate inequality.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/05/john-mcdonnell-labour-universal-basic-income-welfare-benefits-compass-report

    I can't any problems with this at all...none at all...especially if we are still part of the EU. As for the "robotisation" of the work force, we already have it and and it is less likely to affect the low skilled, it will be middle skilled tasks where computers have made leap and bounds.

    Computer AI can do lots of tasks that we currently deem skilled e.g. pretty good at translation, but we have hardly made any progress on enabling computers to "understand" simple tasks like cleaning and tidying, where things are not clear cut and require a lot of different understanding.

    I would be more concerned if i was just a code monkey than a cleaner.

    There are entire professions I would be more concerned about than code monkeys... Law isn't something I would be encouraging a child to enter...
    I'm willing to bet there would be no teachers within 12 months of such a policy being brought in. 60 hours per week for a few thousand a year?

    @Philip_Thompson I think you are optimistic. But you could be right. Stuart Broad - who scored his only Test century as a result of Amir's no-ball - will be interesting to watch...
  • Options
    tyson said:

    Yes sure....

    The thing is the Brexit crowd are completely clueless about how to leave, when to leave and what the hell happens after they vote out.

    Make it up as they go along chumps....

    rcs1000 said:

    Balls, Gove has recanted, at least he is a master of his brief.

    https://twitter.com/craigawoodhouse/status/739455361808224256

    I suspect we would have a transitional treaty, that would be negotiated quickly, leave much unchanged, and have a fixed term of - say - five years.

    This period would be used to hammer out a permanent settlement.
    Are you saying that it is all over for LEAVE or is this reason 124 why they will lose?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,167

    John McDonnell: Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

    Shadow chancellor says the concept of an unconditional payment to all could prepare country for robotisation of the workforce

    A universal basic income (UBI) is regarded by some on the left as a response to the robotisation of the workforce, which it is feared could replace lower-skilled jobs and exacerbate inequality.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/05/john-mcdonnell-labour-universal-basic-income-welfare-benefits-compass-report

    I can't any problems with this at all...none at all...especially if we are still part of the EU. As for the "robotisation" of the work force, we already have it and and it is less likely to affect the low skilled, it will be middle skilled tasks where computers have made leap and bounds.

    Computer AI can do lots of tasks that we currently deem skilled e.g. pretty good at translation, but we have hardly made any progress on enabling computers to "understand" simple tasks like cleaning and tidying, where things are not clear cut and require a lot of different understanding.

    I would be more concerned if i was just a code monkey than a cleaner.

    What about the automisation of supermarket checkouts, factory assembly lines etc? Few jobs are totally immune from the threat of AI though the more creative they are the less the threat. UBI is an interesting idea but not something I think is affordable or needed as yet
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    As said before, Brexit is filled with a hole host of contradictions, make it up as you go along, clueless, ragtag, on the hoof, muddled, seat of pants policymaking. I doubt there are actually any 2 people in the Brexit group who agree with each other on the way forward. You can all have a little dib dab at how things go. Quite fun.

    5 Years minimum dealing with our exit from the EU was what I suggested here a couple of days ago and this has now been more or less confirmed by Gove.

    Plenty of time for some gentle persuasion by the Germans and others methinks, equally plenty of time for some changes of mind on our part.

    Equally it should be said, plenty of time for the UK to set up its own trade deals across the world.

    Overall this timescale probably helps LEAVE, since it provides plenty of wriggle room for us to remain within the EU if, by magic, it were to reform and/or we were able to secure a better deal.

  • Options
    LadyBucketLadyBucket Posts: 590
    I don't know who "won" today's media outings but it certainly wasn't the Conservative Party. Absolutely vicious intervention by John Major, who has now lost all credibility IMO. If I heard Sam Coates correctly on Sunday Politics, he said John Major was slightly uncomfortable about doing it when he heard Boris was on Marr as well. It's much too late now.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Article 50 specifically provides for new arrangements to be made.

    After we leave?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    Mr. Senior, I agree with you. Boadicea is revisionist.

    Mr. Eagles, if you anticipate this tennis match lasting another decade and a half or so, yes.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited June 2016
    john_zims said:

    @Philip_Thompson


    'Doesn't the policy give an element of discretion? Which is how this is to be decided? '


    Why should there be any discretion for a criminal that trashed an entire test series.

    There should be an element of discretion because potentially ultimately many hundreds of millions of pounds are at stake so this should be decided at the highest level and not in advance by some arbitary rule that ignores the specifics of the case.

    As for the second part, that is for those with the discretion to decide. I would say because he has served his sentence and the ECB is willing to play against him and are backing him to come over - if the ECB were saying "no, life ban is appropriate" then I think he'd be refused entry.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,449

    Tennis: BBC livefeed makes a terrible mistake.

    Cnut or Canute are generally accepted spellings. Kanut just looks wrong, like Boudiseeya.

    On his coins it is CNUT . And it is BOUDICCA
    Budug, surely!
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited June 2016
    HYUFD said:

    John McDonnell: Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

    Shadow chancellor says the concept of an unconditional payment to all could prepare country for robotisation of the workforce

    A universal basic income (UBI) is regarded by some on the left as a response to the robotisation of the workforce, which it is feared could replace lower-skilled jobs and exacerbate inequality.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/05/john-mcdonnell-labour-universal-basic-income-welfare-benefits-compass-report

    I can't any problems with this at all...none at all...especially if we are still part of the EU. As for the "robotisation" of the work force, we already have it and and it is less likely to affect the low skilled, it will be middle skilled tasks where computers have made leap and bounds.

    Computer AI can do lots of tasks that we currently deem skilled e.g. pretty good at translation, but we have hardly made any progress on enabling computers to "understand" simple tasks like cleaning and tidying, where things are not clear cut and require a lot of different understanding.

    I would be more concerned if i was just a code monkey than a cleaner.

    What about the automisation of supermarket checkouts, factory assembly lines etc? Few jobs are totally immune from the threat of AI though the more creative they are the less the threat. UBI is an interesting idea but not something I think is affordable or needed as yet
    We already have automated checkouts, they aren't really making the process any more efficient and so still lots of supermarket jobs. We already have automated / robot factory assembly lines, but again there are tasks which are incredibly hard for computer / robots and we aren't much closer to solving them.

    I don't buy this view that because of advantages in computers / robots / AI everybody will be out of job, rather jobs will change, just as they have over history. New sectors will open up. Who would have predicted 50 years the vast numbers of people we would require to work keeping the internet working.

    AI / computer vision is something I know a lot about and we aren't anywhere near solving so many of things that humans do with ease. The AI we are seeing advances in at the moment is based upon theory that is actually 30 years old, and still have some significant limitations.

    Not to say it isn't exciting and will automate jobs, but we are a long way off having general purpose solutions.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    FPT @ dugarbandier "is there any difference between a behaviour and a culture. I'd contend that they are not significantly different."

    Yes. Culture is based on values which beget behaviours. There is much literature on this.

    literature of what kind? surely you could just as easily say "behaviour is based on values which together consitute culture"?

    while you could define a culture in the way that you do, I can't see that there's any reason to consider that the only definition. Can you really say that a culture is anything more than a kind of behaviour?
    My field is culture of safety, a sub-category of organizational culture. I am currently writing a course in this, with text books and workbooks. For culture of safety alone, I have hundreds of references, and I have barely scratched the surface. The literature for organizational culture is vaster still.

    And once you get into societal culture, the field is unmanageable, with many competing theories as one would expect when people from the Arts, Social Sciences and empirical sciences try to work in as amorphous and complex an issue as culture.

    However, at least in my field, the best working definition of culture is 'the way we do things around here'. So you are right that there is indeed a strong correlation between culture and behaviour. But the linkage is that culture is built on a limited number of shared values, and it is these shared values that result in autonomous decision-makers individually making decisions which result in behaviours which are consistent with the culture across the whole organization, without need for top-down micromanagement.

    The behaviourists would add that the culture provides the feedback mechanisms for behaviours - if accepted behaviours receive positive feedback, they will be repeated, if not they will over time be extinguished. If unacceptable behaviours receive negative feedback, they will be discontinued, but what they are replaced with is uncertain unless there is a strong mechanism for positive feedback of desired behaviours.

    Thus behaviours are the result of culture, not the other way around.

  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,449

    Scott_P said:

    @nickherbertmp: Delighted that @JohnnyMercerMP has declared for Remain. Now 173 Conservative MPs supporting Remain - a very clear majority @ConservativesIN

    I see my humongous mancrush on Johnny Mercer shows no signs of abating.
    I thought your humongous mancrash was for Dave :)
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,050

    tyson said:

    Yes sure....

    The thing is the Brexit crowd are completely clueless about how to leave, when to leave and what the hell happens after they vote out.

    Make it up as they go along chumps....

    rcs1000 said:

    Balls, Gove has recanted, at least he is a master of his brief.

    https://twitter.com/craigawoodhouse/status/739455361808224256

    I suspect we would have a transitional treaty, that would be negotiated quickly, leave much unchanged, and have a fixed term of - say - five years.

    This period would be used to hammer out a permanent settlement.
    Are you saying that it is all over for LEAVE or is this reason 124 why they will lose?
    I was going to finish by saying that the hapless, muddled, policy thinking behind leave, beautifully highlighted by Gove today, will not matter one bit come June. The level of scrutiny by voters will be superficial at best.

    Now is the time for each side to really just say whatever comes into their minds, however stupid it appears to people like ourselves.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_P said:

    Article 50 specifically provides for new arrangements to be made.

    After we leave?
    No once we invoke Article 50 the EU is to negotiate a new agreement. A transitional arrangement would definitely fall within the scope of a "withdrawal agreement" with a framework for our future relationship with the Union. It is all there in black and white.

    2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

    3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    Murray loses second set 6-1 after winning first set 6-3.

    Part-British, part-Scottish performance, so far :)

    He is looking more and more Scottish.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    HYUFD said:

    John McDonnell: Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

    Shadow chancellor says the concept of an unconditional payment to all could prepare country for robotisation of the workforce

    A universal basic income (UBI) is regarded by some on the left as a response to the robotisation of the workforce, which it is feared could replace lower-skilled jobs and exacerbate inequality.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/05/john-mcdonnell-labour-universal-basic-income-welfare-benefits-compass-report

    I can't any problems with this at all...none at all...especially if we are still part of the EU. As for the "robotisation" of the work force, we already have it and and it is less likely to affect the low skilled, it will be middle skilled tasks where computers have made leap and bounds.

    Computer AI can do lots of tasks that we currently deem skilled e.g. pretty good at translation, but we have hardly made any progress on enabling computers to "understand" simple tasks like cleaning and tidying, where things are not clear cut and require a lot of different understanding.

    I would be more concerned if i was just a code monkey than a cleaner.

    What about the automisation of supermarket checkouts, factory assembly lines etc? Few jobs are totally immune from the threat of AI though the more creative they are the less the threat. UBI is an interesting idea but not something I think is affordable or needed as yet
    We already have automated checkouts, they aren't really making the process any more efficient and so still lots of supermarket jobs. We already have automated / robot factory assembly lines, but again there are tasks which are incredibly hard for computer / robots and we aren't much closer to solving them.

    I don't buy this view that because of advantages in computers / robots / AI everybody will be out of job, rather jobs will change, just as they have over history. New sectors will open up. Who would have predicted 50 years the vast numbers of people we would require to work keeping the internet working.

    AI / computer vision is something I know a lot about and we aren't anywhere near solving so many of things that humans do with ease. The AI we are seeing advances in at the moment is based upon theory that is actually 30 years old, and still have some significant limitations.
    But think of how many wainwright and farrier jobs have been lost. Or, as Obama might say, how many bank tellers lost their jobs to ATMs. [For clarity, this is not intended to be serious]
  • Options

    Scott_P said:

    @nickherbertmp: Delighted that @JohnnyMercerMP has declared for Remain. Now 173 Conservative MPs supporting Remain - a very clear majority @ConservativesIN

    I see my humongous mancrush on Johnny Mercer shows no signs of abating.
    I thought your humongous mancrash was for Dave :)
    And one on George don't forget.
  • Options
    VapidBilgeVapidBilge Posts: 412
    Scott_P said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I suspect we would have a transitional treaty, that would be negotiated quickly, leave much unchanged, and have a fixed term of - say - five years.

    Even if there were a mechanism to achieve such a thing (which there does not appear to be), 5 more years of "unlimited immigration" will not fly, especially during an election
    As opposed to the alternative you've been supporting, which is, er, "unlimited immigration".

    You're such a sycophant that you're even copying David Cameron's mistakes.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,562
    tyson said:

    As said before, Brexit is filled with a hole host of contradictions, make it up as you go along, clueless, ragtag, on the hoof, muddled, seat of pants policymaking. I doubt there are actually any 2 people in the Brexit group who agree with each other on the way forward. You can all have a little dib dab at how things go. Quite fun.

    5 Years minimum dealing with our exit from the EU was what I suggested here a couple of days ago and this has now been more or less confirmed by Gove.

    Plenty of time for some gentle persuasion by the Germans and others methinks, equally plenty of time for some changes of mind on our part.

    Equally it should be said, plenty of time for the UK to set up its own trade deals across the world.

    Overall this timescale probably helps LEAVE, since it provides plenty of wriggle room for us to remain within the EU if, by magic, it were to reform and/or we were able to secure a better deal.

    It's called debate Tyson, the way it works is that different people have different opinions.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    John McDonnell: Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

    Shadow chancellor says the concept of an unconditional payment to all could prepare country for robotisation of the workforce

    A universal basic income (UBI) is regarded by some on the left as a response to the robotisation of the workforce, which it is feared could replace lower-skilled jobs and exacerbate inequality.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/05/john-mcdonnell-labour-universal-basic-income-welfare-benefits-compass-report

    I can't any problems with this at all...none at all...especially if we are still part of the EU. As for the "robotisation" of the work force, we already have it and and it is less likely to affect the low skilled, it will be middle skilled tasks where computers have made leap and bounds.

    Computer AI can do lots of tasks that we currently deem skilled e.g. pretty good at translation, but we have hardly made any progress on enabling computers to "understand" simple tasks like cleaning and tidying, where things are not clear cut and require a lot of different understanding.

    I would be more concerned if i was just a code monkey than a cleaner.</blockquot

    Will be rejected today by a huge margin by the Swiss, because they have free movement of people.

  • Options
    dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    FPT @ dugarbandier "is there any difference between a behaviour and a culture. I'd contend that they are not significantly different."

    Yes. Culture is based on values which beget behaviours. There is much literature on this.

    literature of what kind? surely you could just as easily say "behaviour is based on values which together consitute culture"?

    while you could define a culture in the way that you do, I can't see that there's any reason to consider that the only definition. Can you really say that a culture is anything more than a kind of behaviour?
    My field is culture of safety, a sub-category of organizational culture. I am currently writing a course in this, with text books and workbooks. For culture of safety alone, I have hundreds of references, and I have barely scratched the surface. The literature for organizational culture is vaster still.

    And once you get into societal culture, the field is unmanageable, with many competing theories as one would expect when people from the Arts, Social Sciences and empirical sciences try to work in as amorphous and complex an issue as culture.

    However, at least in my field, the best working definition of culture is 'the way we do things around here'. So you are right that there is indeed a strong correlation between culture and behaviour. But the linkage is that culture is built on a limited number of shared values, and it is these shared values that result in autonomous decision-makers individually making decisions which result in behaviours which are consistent with the culture across the whole organization, without need for top-down micromanagement.

    The behaviourists would add that the culture provides the feedback mechanisms for behaviours - if accepted behaviours receive positive feedback, they will be repeated, if not they will over time be extinguished. If unacceptable behaviours receive negative feedback, they will be discontinued, but what they are replaced with is uncertain unless there is a strong mechanism for positive feedback of desired behaviours.

    Thus behaviours are the result of culture, not the other way around.

    Thanks for yr detailed reply. And apologies if i appeared bolshy. (posting while boozed again).

    the thing that immedaitaely springs to mind from yr description tho is that people can belong to many types of groups simultaneously, and the values they will share with other members depend on the group? So trying to generalize about which national groups are closer to each other could be a pretty tricky thing, and maybe not very rewarding in the end?

    Anyway, good night. woud be good to hear more anon. cheers
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    MTimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    John McDonnell: Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

    Shadow chancellor says the concept of an unconditional payment to all could prepare country for robotisation of the workforce

    A universal basic income (UBI) is regarded by some on the left as a response to the robotisation of the workforce, which it is feared could replace lower-skilled jobs and exacerbate inequality.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/05/john-mcdonnell-labour-universal-basic-income-welfare-benefits-compass-report

    I can't any problems with this at all...none at all...especially if we are still part of the EU. As for the "robotisation" of the work force, we already have it and and it is less likely to affect the low skilled, it will be middle skilled tasks where computers have made leap and bounds.

    Computer AI can do lots of tasks that we currently deem skilled e.g. pretty good at translation, but we have hardly made any progress on enabling computers to "understand" simple tasks like cleaning and tidying, where things are not clear cut and require a lot of different understanding.

    I would be more concerned if i was just a code monkey than a cleaner.

    What about the automisation of supermarket checkouts, factory assembly lines etc? Few jobs are totally immune from the threat of AI though the more creative they are the less the threat. UBI is an interesting idea but not something I think is affordable or needed as yet
    We already have automated checkouts, they aren't really making the process any more efficient and so still lots of supermarket jobs. We already have automated / robot factory assembly lines, but again there are tasks which are incredibly hard for computer / robots and we aren't much closer to solving them.

    I don't buy this view that because of advantages in computers / robots / AI everybody will be out of job, rather jobs will change, just as they have over history. New sectors will open up. Who would have predicted 50 years the vast numbers of people we would require to work keeping the internet working.

    AI / computer vision is something I know a lot about and we aren't anywhere near solving so many of things that humans do with ease. The AI we are seeing advances in at the moment is based upon theory that is actually 30 years old, and still have some significant limitations.
    But think of how many wainwright and farrier jobs have been lost. Or, as Obama might say, how many bank tellers lost their jobs to ATMs. [For clarity, this is not intended to be serious]
    Lol Farriers will be the last job to be replaced by robots :p
  • Options
    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Philip_Thompson


    'There should be an element of discretion because potentially ultimately many hundreds of millions of pounds are at stake so this should be decided at the highest level and not in advance by some arbitary rule that ignores the specifics of the case.'


    Have I missed something ? Why are hundreds of millions of pounds at stake on whether a convicted criminal should be allowed to play having already trashed a previous Test series ?

  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    No once we invoke Article 50 the EU is to negotiate a new agreement. A transitional arrangement would definitely fall within the scope of a "withdrawal agreement" with a framework for our future relationship with the Union. It is all there in black and white.

    No

    If we invoke Article 50 we negotiate an agreement for withdrawal.

    It does not say we negotiate an agreement to negotiate an agreement
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,584
    john_zims said:

    @Philip_Thompson


    'There should be an element of discretion because potentially ultimately many hundreds of millions of pounds are at stake so this should be decided at the highest level and not in advance by some arbitary rule that ignores the specifics of the case.'


    Have I missed something ? Why are hundreds of millions of pounds at stake on whether a convicted criminal should be allowed to play having already trashed a previous Test series ?

    Yes, as usual John you're missing the very obvious.

    If a country does not honour a test series/tour they have agree to play, then the other side can sue and the ICC can fine them.
  • Options
    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,924

    Please please please can leave be peaking too soon.......

    As their recent surge in fortunea only started a week ago and people were still writing them off then it seems a bit soon for them to peak.

    All thats really happen is that online have won the online v phone polling battle and people are getting increasingly nervous that even online are underestimating it as increasing reports of labour leavers arrive.

    Dosent help that the main thrust of Remains campaign (project fear) is now a public laughing stock and being openly mocked.

    The polls are all over the place and nobody will know which were the most accurate until after the votes have been counted.

    Your posts are going to look so incredibly stupid if Remain win but then again I expect you will disappear from the site as quickly as you arrived if that happens.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,983
    Scott_P said:

    No once we invoke Article 50 the EU is to negotiate a new agreement. A transitional arrangement would definitely fall within the scope of a "withdrawal agreement" with a framework for our future relationship with the Union. It is all there in black and white.

    No

    If we invoke Article 50 we negotiate an agreement for withdrawal.

    It does not say we negotiate an agreement to negotiate an agreement
    Negotiate with who incidentally? Don't say "the EU" because that's not specific enough.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    john_zims said:

    @Philip_Thompson


    'There should be an element of discretion because potentially ultimately many hundreds of millions of pounds are at stake so this should be decided at the highest level and not in advance by some arbitary rule that ignores the specifics of the case.'


    Have I missed something ? Why are hundreds of millions of pounds at stake on whether a convicted criminal should be allowed to play having already trashed a previous Test series ?

    Hundreds of millions are at stake for international cricket tours. Having already served his sentence and seen his ban lifted, if we refuse to let in Amir then what happens if Pakistan refuses to tour on the basis that we are not letting one of their top players in even though he isn't banned?

    It is up to the ICB to decide if it was meant to be a lifetime ban, they have decided against.
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    My current prediction ...

    A very narrow win for Remain unless ... a terrorist atrocity or Juncker saying something silly. The latter a certainty, but it may not be reported.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,900
    Is the reason the French are solidly behind Djokovic their way of protesting at Murrays fashion sense?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    viewcode said:

    Negotiate with who incidentally? Don't say "the EU" because that's not specific enough.

    The wording says "the Union"
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,449
    Murray definitely Scottish, loses third set 6-2 :(
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,449
    Roger said:

    Is the reason the French are solidly behind Djokovic their way of protesting at Murrays fashion sense?

    I liked his cameo in The Burbs with Tom Hanks and Carrie Fisher.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_P said:

    No once we invoke Article 50 the EU is to negotiate a new agreement. A transitional arrangement would definitely fall within the scope of a "withdrawal agreement" with a framework for our future relationship with the Union. It is all there in black and white.

    No

    If we invoke Article 50 we negotiate an agreement for withdrawal.

    It does not say we negotiate an agreement to negotiate an agreement
    It doesn't specify what the agreement is but simply that it is an agreement and specifically that it should take into account "the framework for its future relationship with the Union".

    A temporary agreement that sees us outside the EU as soon as possible but in an EEA/EFTA-style agreement until the final agreement is reached matches this requirement. Once we have given notice of our intent to withdraw it is in the best interests of all parties to both see an agreement ASAP and see it implemented and us outside ASAP.
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