Miss Plato, I largely agree on values but there is an overlap (with the divide determined by how cynical one is about the EU) of those who liked the idea of remain with reform.
I like that idea, but find it incredible. The EU's not capable of changing that way, and I'd rather be governed by those who are accountable than those who are not.
I think one of the reasons Cameron has got himself in such a terrible position within his party is that too many people read into 'reform' whatever they wanted, however unrealistic it was. If anyone thought we could reconstitute the EU from the ground up into something completely different they were deluded, and as people now understand, that was never what Cameron and the majority of the political establishment in the UK wanted.
Of course not. We all know that. All they ever wanted was enough of a change to be able to sell it to the public as reform so they could then win the referendum and have the EU carry on as before on its federalist trajectory.
Richard surely if remain win they will have to be honest about the federalist trajectory ? As the referendum will have highlighted the issues , to a wider more informed public . Maybe that is to an optimistic outcome.
But it's not just this issue where the political class and the media have a weird aversion to telling it like it is. That tendency covers a whole range of subjects.
We collectively need to be more grown up and refuse to allow a situation to continue where a politician being honest is regarded as a gaffe.
I think it's quite smart by Leave assuming Trump is disciplined and on message (and I think he can be).
He turns up in London. Cameron kind of has to meet him, or look like a jerk. (They could met in Scotland as well). So Cameron is tied down for half a day in a strongly Remain area, but one where he doesn't appeal to the voters.
The TV pictures the night before the vote are of Cameron and Trump, which is unlikely to make left wing Remain voters inclined to to out and vote got that nice Mr Cameron (unless he is rude about Trump to his face which diplomacy makes difficult).
All Trump has to do is day nothing controversial (and nothing about the vote). Something like "I'm not going to interfere, it's up to the Brits. But I will say that Britain is a great nation with a proud history. I and millions of my fellow Americans value the close friendship between our two countries and that isn't going to change regardless of what you decide tomorrow"
You could potentially massively reassure nervous voters on the trade issue at a point when it is too late for Remain to do anything about it.
Just needs Trump to be disciplined...
Cameron won't meet him.
Probably the only reason Trump is supporting BrExit is because Cameron went around calling him a dangerous idiot to anyone listening, but then Dave never really did get this international politics idea.... even if its a Remain might be best to resign early if Trump wins
Cameron is not alone in believing Trump is a dangerous idiot, I would think 80% of world politicians share that view.
Most of them have the sense to keep their big mouths shut since its looking increasingly probable that he will win, that is the job for the PM's outriders and "sources close to the PM" so that he can deny it with a straight face if it becomes politically awkward.... and its now got a very good chance of becoming politically awkward!
So he won't be meeting Boris either then
Boris Johnson: 'The only reason I wouldn't visit some parts of New York is the real risk of meeting Donald Trump' (Courtesy of TSE and the Telegraph)
The other way of meeting the pledge is of course, outside the EU, to negotiate freer movement with prosperous English-speaking countries of the type Britons might want to go to, as well as keeping as much as possible with Western Europe. You can meet a net pledge by reducing in or by increasing out.
Will the last Ten Pound Pom please turn out the lights...
Raed Salah was - to be specific, he was found by a court to have uttered the medieval blood libel against Jews.
Where was the court? Surely not in the UK. I think it's only a crime in certain EU countries and Israel. I cant find the conviction
The court was a Zionist court in occupied Jerusalem.
So nonsense then. Sorry I missed your post. I heard this conviction used many times on here to discredit Corbyn. It's as well that it's been cleared up
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
No. The racists are those who prefer nice white EU immigrants over nasty brown Global immigrants for the same level of skills and ability... otherwise known as the Remainers.
I had not thought of it in that way, but you are true. As in the suggestions that "These are our european brothers and sisters our kith and kin, we are european".
I watched the lady in blue on last night's debate really closely. She's of Asian descent and tried to argue Leave were racist using coded language. Gove said those from India, Pakistan or Bengal would be just as eligible as everyone else to apply to live here caused her face to change - it became an uncomfortable mask.
She didn't want to believe it, Brexiteers are all horrible blah blah. Her viewpoint wasn't changed, but the point was made.
Are Leave proposing to lift the non-EU migration cap? If not, Gove was lying
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
No. The racists are those who prefer nice white EU immigrants over nasty brown Global immigrants for the same level of skills and ability... otherwise known as the Remainers.
I had not thought of it in that way, but you are true. As in the suggestions that "These are our european brothers and sisters our kith and kin, we are european".
I watched the lady in blue on last night's debate really closely. She's of Asian descent and tried to argue Leave were racist using coded language. Gove said those from India, Pakistan or Bengal would be just as eligible as everyone else to apply to live here caused her face to change - it became an uncomfortable mask.
She didn't want to believe it, Brexiteers are all horrible blah blah. Her viewpoint wasn't changed, but the point was made.
It was a superb answer and undoubtedly genuinely felt and meant. Whether all on the leave side feel the same is another question.
Because it is only in the last decade that it has become clear from Greece to Italy to Spain and more that the EU is failing all around us. While the UK which was mean to be a failure if we didn't join the Euro has instead boomed past the failing Euro projects.
The evidence is that the EU is not working.
Then it's our duty as one of the pillars of European civilisation, history and power, to play our part in making it work better. We've never been a country of shirkers, saying 'Not my problem guv' and cutting ourselves off from our neighbours.
No its our duty to forge a better alternative.
If we could reform the EU then great. If Cameron meaningfully had done so then great. But the EU has not been meaningfully reformed even when this referendum was at the end of the process. So if not now, then realistically when?
Outside the EU just like outside the Euro we can demonstrate the fear mongers to be wrong and forge a better alternative path. Give hope to those afraid themselves to cut loose and try something different.
I believe it's a major error of judgement to regard the EU as something transitory like the USSR that will eventually disintegrate in calamitous failure. If people are voting Leave on that basis they are potentially putting Britain straight back on the path of relative decline which were only able to stop after we joined the Community.
Recent polls suggest that other countries voters are interested in following our lead, the EU could certainly lose 4-5 other countries if we leave, which would probably be enough to finish it, certainly if another net contributor left it would be toast, there would not be enough money to support all the idiocies.
OGH Tweets: Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB @odysseanproject Brave for you as Vote Leave chief to take on respected political scientist @GoodwinMJ like this.
Edit - for those who have searched Twitter for 'Dominic Cummings' and learned more than you may have expected to, @odysseanproject is the snappy Twitter handle of the head of Vote Leave, the perennially even tempered and charming Dominic Cummings....
This referendum has totally changed the game. The entitled well off from both Labour/Tories against those who aren't and feel threatened/alienated and forgotten.
Gove and Boris Johnson hardly epitomise the alienated and forgotten. They're just manipulating them as a tool to win their political turf war.
Would you prefer no one advocated their cause?
What an odd position. You're also forgetting Kate Hoey and Gisela plus others. Getting to the top of the tree from meagre backgrounds doesn't prevent one from advocating a case.
'The ICM Phone poll of 27th-29th May2016 had a 2% lead for LEAVE with a vote split for Cons of 45% LEAVE and 43% REMAIN (without removing the DK). Key is that UKIP provide a large base with 15%+ of all voters to build LEAVE from. To get LEAVE to 51% the three biggest components I have (expressed as % of all voters) are:- Con 19.2%, Labour 5.2%, UKIP 21.2% Turnout for UKIP topping 75% with overall turnout 60.0%.'
Yes, so Remain failed to get the 45% of Tory voters required to back them as I stated they required in that poll and hence Leave had a small lead. With Yougov without don't knows 36% of Tories back Remain and it is 41% Remain 41% Leave, to get a clear lead Remain need to push that figure up to 40-45%. When pushed 39% of Tories back Remain and the overall figure is 44% Remain 43% Leave which is a little nearer Remain's target. Tories then split 53% Leave 39% Remain, Labour voters 61% Remain 31% Leave, LDs 64% Remain 30% Leave, UKIP voters 93% Leave 5% Remain so Tories are the key swing voters https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/5410is51bi/TimesResults_160531_EURef&HousePrices_W.pdf
As your figures point out Leave needs a big turnout from its supporters and to win a clear majority of Tories who also turn out for them.
Yes lets keep all brownies out , only allow in Canadians , Aussies and US whitie English speakers .
You really do talk some crap. What about all those English speaking Indians and Pakistanis ? What about all those English speaking Filipinos, Singaporeans, South Africans ? Never mind that China is now teaching English from Kindergarten, and expecting their students to be conversationally fluent by the start of high school. Also I understand there are a few brown people in Canada, USA and Australian, and I believe they speak English as well.
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
No. The racists are those who prefer nice white EU immigrants over nasty brown Global immigrants for the same level of skills and ability... otherwise known as the Remainers.
I had not thought of it in that way, but you are true. As in the suggestions that "These are our european brothers and sisters our kith and kin, we are european".
I watched the lady in blue on last night's debate really closely. She's of Asian descent and tried to argue Leave were racist using coded language. Gove said those from India, Pakistan or Bengal would be just as eligible as everyone else to apply to live here caused her face to change - it became an uncomfortable mask.
She didn't want to believe it, Brexiteers are all horrible blah blah. Her viewpoint wasn't changed, but the point was made.
It was a superb answer and undoubtedly genuinely felt and meant. Whether all on the leave side feel the same is another question.
Are Leave proposing to lift the non-EU migration cap? If not, Gove was lying
This referendum has totally changed the game. The entitled well off from both Labour/Tories against those who aren't and feel threatened/alienated and forgotten.
Gove and Boris Johnson hardly epitomise the alienated and forgotten. They're just manipulating them as a tool to win their political turf war.
Would you prefer no one advocated their cause?
What an odd position. You're also forgetting Kate Hoey and Gisela plus others. Getting to the top of the tree from meagre backgrounds doesn't prevent one from advocating a case.
I don't think it is their cause. People are concerned about insecurity caused by the rapid pace of globalisation and its many effects. The Leave campaign are using demagoguery to direct those concerns towards the easy catch-all solution of leaving the EU, despite not really intending to do anything that would actually help.
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
No. The racists are those who prefer nice white EU immigrants over nasty brown Global immigrants for the same level of skills and ability... otherwise known as the Remainers.
I had not thought of it in that way, but you are true. As in the suggestions that "These are our european brothers and sisters our kith and kin, we are european".
I watched the lady in blue on last night's debate really closely. She's of Asian descent and tried to argue Leave were racist using coded language. Gove said those from India, Pakistan or Bengal would be just as eligible as everyone else to apply to live here caused her face to change - it became an uncomfortable mask.
She didn't want to believe it, Brexiteers are all horrible blah blah. Her viewpoint wasn't changed, but the point was made.
Are Leave proposing to lift the non-EU migration cap? If not, Gove was lying
This place is full of remainers standing around with fingers in their ears chanting "lalalalala" as loudly as they can.
If there is a points based system as proposed, then anyone, from anywhere, with any color skin, can enter settle in the UK is they score enough points, where points are earned on the basis of age, skills, abilities, languages, having a job etc.
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
No. The racists are those who prefer nice white EU immigrants over nasty brown Global immigrants for the same level of skills and ability... otherwise known as the Remainers.
I had not thought of it in that way, but you are true. As in the suggestions that "These are our european brothers and sisters our kith and kin, we are european".
I watched the lady in blue on last night's debate really closely. She's of Asian descent and tried to argue Leave were racist using coded language. Gove said those from India, Pakistan or Bengal would be just as eligible as everyone else to apply to live here caused her face to change - it became an uncomfortable mask.
She didn't want to believe it, Brexiteers are all horrible blah blah. Her viewpoint wasn't changed, but the point was made.
It was a superb answer and undoubtedly genuinely felt and meant. Whether all on the leave side feel the same is another question.
Are Leave proposing to lift the non-EU migration cap? If not, Gove was lying
Leave are proposing that the bias against non EU migration is removed.
Yes lets keep all brownies out , only allow in Canadians , Aussies and US whitie English speakers .
You really do talk some crap. What about all those English speaking Indians and Pakistanis ? What about all those English speaking Filipinos, Singaporeans, South Africans ? Never mind that China is now teaching English from Kindergarten, and expecting their students to be conversationally fluent by the start of high school. Also I understand there are a few brown people in Canada, USA and Australian, and I believe they speak English as well.
you are arguing with the wrong person . It is the BNP wing of Leavers to whom you should be pointing this out
If there is a points based system as proposed, then anyone, from anywhere, with any color skin, can enter settle in the UK is they score enough points, where points are earned on the basis of age, skills, abilities, languages, having a job etc.
If it will work on that basis then you will have no ability whatsoever to control the numbers.
Miss Plato, I largely agree on values but there is an overlap (with the divide determined by how cynical one is about the EU) of those who liked the idea of remain with reform.
I like that idea, but find it incredible. The EU's not capable of changing that way, and I'd rather be governed by those who are accountable than those who are not.
Gove made an evocative visual point last night about the power of *the removals van* at Downing St every 5 or 10 yrs. We can't do that with any EU bod.
At one time, the arrival of the removal van at the doors of 10 Downing Street, the day after a Government defeat at a General Election was always part and parcel of the custom and practice of booting out the previous Prime Minister and installing his successor. It always seemed unnecessarily hasty and therefore rather cruel to me. IIRC the removal van in question was always from John Lewis suggesting that either they had a long term contract to undertake this grisly task or else that they undertook it for free in order to gain the free attendant publicity. One always felt sympathy for the likes of Mary Wilson, Ted Heath (on his own) and Audrey Callaghan, etc. feverishly working away throughout the night to have everything packed up ready for their departure the following morning.
It's horribly brutal - however, I have to confess to enjoying Gordon The Unelected walking away.
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
No. The racists are those who prefer nice white EU immigrants over nasty brown Global immigrants for the same level of skills and ability... otherwise known as the Remainers.
I had not thought of it in that way, but you are true. As in the suggestions that "These are our european brothers and sisters our kith and kin, we are european".
I watched the lady in blue on last night's debate really closely. She's of Asian descent and tried to argue Leave were racist using coded language. Gove said those from India, Pakistan or Bengal would be just as eligible as everyone else to apply to live here caused her face to change - it became an uncomfortable mask.
She didn't want to believe it, Brexiteers are all horrible blah blah. Her viewpoint wasn't changed, but the point was made.
Are Leave proposing to lift the non-EU migration cap? If not, Gove was lying
This place is full of remainers standing around with fingers in their ears chanting "lalalalala" as loudly as they can.
If there is a points based system as proposed, then anyone, from anywhere, with any color skin, can enter settle in the UK is they score enough points, where points are earned on the basis of age, skills, abilities, languages, having a job etc.
and where will the points needed qualification be set in order to meet what number of net immigrants annually ?
If there is a points based system as proposed, then anyone, from anywhere, with any color skin, can enter settle in the UK is they score enough points, where points are earned on the basis of age, skills, abilities, languages, having a job etc.
If it will work on that basis then you will have no ability whatsoever to control the numbers.
Yes you will. Australian and Canada do exactly this. You tweak the number of points required every so often to keep the total number on target, which is exactly what Australia and Canada do.
I watched the Sky News debate , thought Michael Gove was good , even with a difficult hand regarding the economy. If leave win , I hope he changes his mind regarding becoming PM. As he seems a man of principle , who hopefully will negotiate what is required for the UK.
Have to agree with you. I thought he was far too swottish before and he proved me wrong.
I have to reassess him. If he doesn't want to be PM, he certainly proven himself for another top job. CoE or FSec
Miss P, I agree with you. I have always thought that Gove had one of the best intellects in the ranks of the Conservative Party, is sincere and an all round bon oeuf. Regrettably in this media age that is not enough and possibly even a disadvantage. I also have doubts about his leadership skills, as it would seem does he. So a good chap, but not PM material.
Jacob Rees-Mogg is another chap I hold in high regard. Fearsomely intelligent, warm, and cogent (as was his father). Unfortunately, not only does he have a double-barrelled name he went to Eton. So in this day and age he will never get the top job.
To expand: I rather think that the Conservative party will turn to a lady for their next leader. I have a few quid on Priti Patel, but I think she is thought of as a bit too hard nosed to succeed, though I also think she would make a fine PM. The other contenders in my mind, Greening and Truss, have blown up in the trials. However, as was noted yesterday, Sarah Wollaston looks a good outsider and, at 66/1, a good bet. I am not sure how she stands within the parliamentary party though, and that is the key thing.
It is a shame that I have upset Mr. Charles, gent of this parish, because I am sure he would have some good inside information.
In the mists of time one forgets all of the mendaciousness of our ex PM Gordon Brown. I seem to recall he signed some treaty or other that fecked us and Cameron tried to stop it happening, working with the Poles or was it the Czechs?, Then there was Blair who wouldn't know the truth if it slapped him in the face who gave away our rebate for nothing. Not to mention illegal wars.... So a lot of blood is on Brown and Blair in the EU debacle that we now see., and lets not forget the deceit over the massive immigration that was allowed.in the early 2000's
All this EU shite was forced on the Great British Public largely against their wishes, and if we exit the EU, (which I am against ) our politicians will be largely to blame for past deeds . You can fling shit on the proles for only so long, then they revolt...
Miss Plato, I largely agree on values but there is an overlap (with the divide determined by how cynical one is about the EU) of those who liked the idea of remain with reform.
I like that idea, but find it incredible. The EU's not capable of changing that way, and I'd rather be governed by those who are accountable than those who are not.
Gove made an evocative visual point last night about the power of *the removals van* at Downing St every 5 or 10 yrs. We can't do that with any EU bod.
At one time, the arrival of the removal van at the doors of 10 Downing Street, the day after a Government defeat at a General Election was always part and parcel of the custom and practice of booting out the previous Prime Minister and installing his successor. It always seemed unnecessarily hasty and therefore rather cruel to me. IIRC the removal van in question was always from John Lewis suggesting that either they had a long term contract to undertake this grisly task or else that they undertook it for free in order to gain the free attendant publicity. One always felt sympathy for the likes of Mary Wilson, Ted Heath (on his own) and Audrey Callaghan, etc. feverishly working away throughout the night to have everything packed up ready for their departure the following morning.
It's horribly brutal - however, I have to confess to enjoying Gordon The Unelected walking away.
If LEAVE win (and I have £500 @ 5/2 saying that they will) then you will have Gove the Unelected or Boris the Unelected.
Miss Plato, I largely agree on values but there is an overlap (with the divide determined by how cynical one is about the EU) of those who liked the idea of remain with reform.
I like that idea, but find it incredible. The EU's not capable of changing that way, and I'd rather be governed by those who are accountable than those who are not.
Gove made an evocative visual point last night about the power of *the removals van* at Downing St every 5 or 10 yrs. We can't do that with any EU bod.
At one time, the arrival of the removal van at the doors of 10 Downing Street, the day after a Government defeat at a General Election was always part and parcel of the custom and practice of booting out the previous Prime Minister and installing his successor. It always seemed unnecessarily hasty and therefore rather cruel to me. IIRC the removal van in question was always from John Lewis suggesting that either they had a long term contract to undertake this grisly task or else that they undertook it for free in order to gain the free attendant publicity. One always felt sympathy for the likes of Mary Wilson, Ted Heath (on his own) and Audrey Callaghan, etc. feverishly working away throughout the night to have everything packed up ready for their departure the following morning.
It's horribly brutal - however, I have to confess to enjoying Gordon The Unelected walking away.
If LEAVE win (and I have £500 @ 5/2 saying that they will) then you will have Gove the Unelected or Boris the Unelected.
Who given Corbyn the Unbelievable as their opponent would be fools if they then didn't call a snap election to get a new mandate and a larger majority (and no Corbyn is not going to vote against dissolving parliament, his activists and members would eat him alive)
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
That isn't an argument that would hold much water.
Seriously, Why? Explain to me the rationale for anyone with racist views would vote Remain? Better still point me to someone with racist views that is advocating a Remain vote.
Sir Oswald Mosley supported the creation of a United States of Europe as the only way to defend White civilisation, and plenty of European fascists think the same way.
Other types of racists who might vote Remain are those who despise their own countrymen, or who dislike White people and think they need to "have their noses rubbed in diversity". And among leftward-leaning students who overwhelmingly support Remain, there's a strong strain of anti-semitism.
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
No. The racists are those who prefer nice white EU immigrants over nasty brown Global immigrants for the same level of skills and ability... otherwise known as the Remainers.
The number of non-EU immigrants is not going to rise as a result of Brexit.
If the points system is introduced people will be treated the same regardless of where they come from, it will be skills, abilities and contribution to the nation that will matter, the PROPORTION of immigrants from outside the EU will probably go up dramatically.
And the skill and education levels of immigrants will too.
To meet the Cameron pledge of immigration being reduced to tens of thousands , even if all immigration from the EU ceased , immigration from the rest of the world would have to be cut by around half from the 188,000 last year . As non EU nationals in employment in the UK increased by only 5,000 in 2015 a substantial % of non EU migrants clearly do not come here for work related reasons .
o_O How does that work ?
Worrying.
A lot come here to study not work.
The figures exclude short term migration for study purposes .
Half of non-EU immigration is students, predominantly university ones.
We import 260,000 or so non-EU workers per year, with about 100,000 being on high skilled visas.
The need for the remaining 160,000 will come sharply into focus if we vote Remain.
Because it is only in the last decade that it has become clear from Greece to Italy to Spain and more that the EU is failing all around us. While the UK which was mean to be a failure if we didn't join the Euro has instead boomed past the failing Euro projects.
The evidence is that the EU is not working.
Then it's our duty as one of the pillars of European civilisation, history and power, to play our part in making it work better. We've never been a country of shirkers, saying 'Not my problem guv' and cutting ourselves off from our neighbours.
No its our duty to forge a better alternative.
If we could reform the EU then great. If Cameron meaningfully had done so then great. But the EU has not been meaningfully reformed even when this referendum was at the end of the process. So if not now, then realistically when?
Outside the EU just like outside the Euro we can demonstrate the fear mongers to be wrong and forge a better alternative path. Give hope to those afraid themselves to cut loose and try something different.
I believe it's a major error of judgement to regard the EU as something transitory like the USSR that will eventually disintegrate in calamitous failure. If people are voting Leave on that basis they are potentially putting Britain straight back on the path of relative decline which were only able to stop after we joined the Community.
Why would we enter relative decline by leaving a Community that is in relative decline itself?
If we do vote Leave I would be inclined to save the gloating till we discover whether the warnings from "the elite" had any validity or not.
Why? The so called elite were giving identical warnings to if we didn't join the Euro and they were wrong, while the warnings from the likes of Hague about the Euro were dismissed as rabid nonsense. Turns out the sceptics were right then and the so called elite were wrong.
Before I think if we will face disaster outside the EU I'd like you to name a nation outside the EU comparable to us that is a disaster.
*claps*
28 are in the EU and a declining global GDP market - the other 166 or so aren't.
I fail to see what's so attractive about the EU myself. It's a Regulation Zone, nothing more.
If there is a points based system as proposed, then anyone, from anywhere, with any color skin, can enter settle in the UK is they score enough points, where points are earned on the basis of age, skills, abilities, languages, having a job etc.
If it will work on that basis then you will have no ability whatsoever to control the numbers.
You raise or lower the bar as necessary - simples.
(And I used that word deliberately - some insurance companies increase or lower their rates towards the end of the day if their targets have or haven't been met.)
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense. It's just silly and childish.
Thank you for the complement regarding brightness, and you are correct that I am being self-indulgent (nobody's paying me to post here), but my point about LEAVE's current campaign being overwhelmingly antiimmigration is surely correct.
Being Anti Indiscriminate Immigration From 28 Countries is entirely correct.
I fail to see how this helps the Remain argument. Who in their right mind would take in everyone with no skills or little economic raising value because they were a tiny % of the world's available bright sparks?
Seriously, it makes zero sense. I'd swap Roma pickpockets for Chinese takeaway owners everyday.
Gove's performance last night prompted one London punter to open account with Hills & bet £10,000 at 1/3 on a Remain victory
Those Bullingdon Boys can afford to lose it....
Gove's overall positive PR post Sky must be worrying Remain in Number 10. I wasn't expecting much/feared a car crash, and he totally over delivered.
Faisal was an arse. As I expected. His manner gave more votes to Leave IMO.
Sky's GoggleBox family was universally positive for Leave/Gove - he was seen as credible and genuine, even the staunch young lady for Remain confessed to liking him despite hating the Tories.
Are Leave proposing to lift the non-EU migration cap? If not, Gove was lying
This place is full of remainers standing around with fingers in their ears chanting "lalalalala" as loudly as they can.
If there is a points based system as proposed, then anyone, from anywhere, with any color skin, can enter settle in the UK is they score enough points, where points are earned on the basis of age, skills, abilities, languages, having a job etc.
You ARE aware that non-EU migrants are already subject to a points-based system, aren't you?
Because it is only in the last decade that it has become clear from Greece to Italy to Spain and more that the EU is failing all around us. While the UK which was mean to be a failure if we didn't join the Euro has instead boomed past the failing Euro projects.
The evidence is that the EU is not working.
Then it's our duty as one of the pillars of European civilisation, history and power, to play our part in making it work better. We've never been a country of shirkers, saying 'Not my problem guv' and cutting ourselves off from our neighbours.
If you think the UK is booming, why change our current position in the EU but outside the Eurozone?
If you think Europe is tanking because of the EU and its unwillingness to change direction then surely leaving it is the only rational way of fixing it?
"IN supporting Cabinet Ministers admit that Leave have had a good week. But they argue that they won’t be able to ride the immigration issue to victory on June 23rd. One argues that you can’t focus on immigration week after week, or ‘By week four, you end up sounding like Nigel Farage’.
I think Remain are missing the point - deliberately. And the more Remainers say it's the wrong thing to focus on, the more I'm inclined to think it actually is. Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out, it's about pressure on house prices, rents, maternity services, school places, our culture, jobs and prospects and on and on and on. I've no problem whatsoever with importing smart articulate people from anywhere on the globe if that helps our nation to succeed. I object strongly to opportunist whatevers who don't raise the bar.
The other point is that REMAIN believe a strategy of 19 weeks on the economy (stupid) will engage voters and think that 4 weeks on immigration is going to switch off voters.
Alistair Campbell on Newsnight said that REMAIN should stick to one strategy to win. I guess he must by now have learned from the elvis impersonator stunt at GE2010?
As we've seen on here, Remain and Leave have two entirely different value sets. They're talking different languages and neither gets the other.
I'd happily lose economically, if we had control over our borders, law and national identity. I believe very strongly that the EU is a ball and chain on our prospects. I've no doubts that we'll succeed without them - we did so for 1000yrs.
That's very easy for someone not in work to say.
I'm not getting your point here. Do you know my employment status or are you making another point? My view wouldn't differ whatever it was.
I'm very firm here - Britain is a proud nation that's been whittled away at for decade by apologists, haters and the wobble bottoms.
I've no doubts about what we can achieve. We did it for 1000yrs before the tentacles of the EEC sapped some peoples self confidence.
Following your prognostications to their logical conclusion, the only way for Labour to get into power before 2020 is to vote Leave. That's if you have faith in your leader.
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
That isn't an argument that would hold much water.
Seriously, Why? Explain to me the rationale for anyone with racist views would vote Remain? Better still point me to someone with racist views that is advocating a Remain vote.
Sir Oswald Mosley supported the creation of a United States of Europe as the only way to defend White civilisation, and plenty of European fascists think the same way.
Other types of racists who might vote Remain are those who despise their own countrymen, or who dislike White people and think they need to "have their noses rubbed in diversity". And among leftward-leaning students who overwhelmingly support Remain, there's a strong strain of anti-semitism.
"IN supporting Cabinet Ministers admit that Leave have had a good week. But they argue that they won’t be able to ride the immigration issue to victory on June 23rd. One argues that you can’t focus on immigration week after week, or ‘By week four, you end up sounding like Nigel Farage’.
I think Remain are missing the point - deliberately. And the more Remainers say it's the wrong thing to focus on, the more I'm inclined to think it actually is. Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out, it's about pressure on house prices, rents, maternity services, school places, our culture, jobs and prospects and on and on and on. I've no problem whatsoever with importing smart articulate people from anywhere on the globe if that helps our nation to succeed. I object strongly to opportunist whatevers who don't raise the bar.
The other point is that REMAIN believe a strategy of 19 weeks on the economy (stupid) will engage voters and think that 4 weeks on immigration is going to switch off voters.
Alistair Campbell on Newsnight said that REMAIN should stick to one strategy to win. I guess he must by now have learned from the elvis impersonator stunt at GE2010?
As we've seen on here, Remain and Leave have two entirely different value sets. They're talking different languages and neither gets the other.
I'd happily lose economically, if we had control over our borders, law and national identity. I believe very strongly that the EU is a ball and chain on our prospects. I've no doubts that we'll succeed without them - we did so for 1000yrs.
That's very easy for someone not in work to say.
I'm not getting your point here. Do you know my employment status or are you making another point? My view wouldn't differ whatever it was.
I'm very firm here - Britain is a proud nation that's been whittled away at for decade by apologists, haters and the wobble bottoms.
I've no doubts about what we can achieve. We did it for 1000yrs before the tentacles of the EEC sapped some peoples self confidence.
Well said, PlatoSaid. We must make sure to throw the bastards out.
Mr. Whaley, the problem that you mention is not confined to the Referendum, or indeed to politics generally (though that is probably where we most often recognise it). It is I suggest a fact of life and the greatest hidden block to human communication.
I have to agree with you there. At the most trivial level I would liken the EU debate at present to a discussion about what the best colour is. My favourite colour is green but only other people who share that view already can understand why. If another person's favourite colour is orange and we decide to debate the point we'd go on forever arguing with neither side making any progress.
The trouble with the EU referendum (any referendum) is that a binary conclusion has to be reached. One side is going to win the argument at a practical level and see their will enacted - but neither side will win at a philosophical level and the losers will be left utterly perplexed as to what has happened.
"IN supporting Cabinet Ministers admit that Leave have had a good week. But they argue that they won’t be able to ride the immigration issue to victory on June 23rd. One argues that you can’t focus on immigration week after week, or ‘By week four, you end up sounding like Nigel Farage’.
I think Remain are missing the point - deliberately. And the more Remainers say it's the wrong thing to focus on, the more I'm inclined to think it actually is. Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out, it's about pressure on house prices, rents, maternity services, school places, our culture, jobs and prospects and on and on and on. I've no problem whatsoever with importing smart articulate people from anywhere on the globe if that helps our nation to succeed. I object strongly to opportunist whatevers who don't raise the bar.
The other point is that REMAIN believe a strategy of 19 weeks on the economy (stupid) will engage voters and think that 4 weeks on immigration is going to switch off voters.
Alistair Campbell on Newsnight said that REMAIN should stick to one strategy to win. I guess he must by now have learned from the elvis impersonator stunt at GE2010?
As we've seen on here, Remain and Leave have two entirely different value sets. They're talking different languages and neither gets the other.
I'd happily lose economically, if we had control over our borders, law and national identity. I believe very strongly that the EU is a ball and chain on our prospects. I've no doubts that we'll succeed without them - we did so for 1000yrs.
That's very easy for someone not in work to say.
I'm not getting your point here. Do you know my employment status or are you making another point? My view wouldn't differ whatever it was.
I'm very firm here - Britain is a proud nation that's been whittled away at for decade by apologists, haters and the wobble bottoms.
I've no doubts about what we can achieve. We did it for 1000yrs before the tentacles of the EEC sapped some peoples self confidence.
Comments
So he won't be meeting Boris either then
Boris Johnson: 'The only reason I wouldn't visit some parts of New York is the real risk of meeting Donald Trump'
(Courtesy of TSE and the Telegraph)
Mike Smithson
@MSmithsonPB
@odysseanproject Brave for you as Vote Leave chief to take on respected political scientist @GoodwinMJ like this.
Edit - for those who have searched Twitter for 'Dominic Cummings' and learned more than you may have expected to, @odysseanproject is the snappy Twitter handle of the head of Vote Leave, the perennially even tempered and charming Dominic Cummings....
What an odd position. You're also forgetting Kate Hoey and Gisela plus others. Getting to the top of the tree from meagre backgrounds doesn't prevent one from advocating a case.
'The ICM Phone poll of 27th-29th May2016 had a 2% lead for LEAVE with a vote split for Cons of 45% LEAVE and 43% REMAIN (without removing the DK). Key is that UKIP provide a large base with 15%+ of all voters to build LEAVE from. To get LEAVE to 51% the three biggest components I have (expressed as % of all voters) are:-
Con 19.2%, Labour 5.2%, UKIP 21.2% Turnout for UKIP topping 75% with overall turnout 60.0%.'
Yes, so Remain failed to get the 45% of Tory voters required to back them as I stated they required in that poll and hence Leave had a small lead. With Yougov without don't knows 36% of Tories back Remain and it is 41% Remain 41% Leave, to get a clear lead Remain need to push that figure up to 40-45%. When pushed 39% of Tories back Remain and the overall figure is 44% Remain 43% Leave which is a little nearer Remain's target.
Tories then split 53% Leave 39% Remain, Labour voters 61% Remain 31% Leave, LDs 64% Remain 30% Leave, UKIP voters 93% Leave 5% Remain so Tories are the key swing voters
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/5410is51bi/TimesResults_160531_EURef&HousePrices_W.pdf
As your figures point out Leave needs a big turnout from its supporters and to win a clear majority of Tories who also turn out for them.
a) Reclaiming sovereignty is worth the economic hit we will take;
b) we will thrive economically outside the EU.
If there is a points based system as proposed, then anyone, from anywhere, with any color skin, can enter settle in the UK is they score enough points, where points are earned on the basis of age, skills, abilities, languages, having a job etc.
Possible both won't happen at the same time.
Maybe there will be a year or two of economic hit, then a period of being much the same, then a future of thriving economically.
The level of desperation from Remainers this evening is a little sad to be honest.
NEW THREAD NEW THREAD
Jacob Rees-Mogg is another chap I hold in high regard. Fearsomely intelligent, warm, and cogent (as was his father). Unfortunately, not only does he have a double-barrelled name he went to Eton. So in this day and age he will never get the top job.
To expand: I rather think that the Conservative party will turn to a lady for their next leader. I have a few quid on Priti Patel, but I think she is thought of as a bit too hard nosed to succeed, though I also think she would make a fine PM. The other contenders in my mind, Greening and Truss, have blown up in the trials. However, as was noted yesterday, Sarah Wollaston looks a good outsider and, at 66/1, a good bet. I am not sure how she stands within the parliamentary party though, and that is the key thing.
It is a shame that I have upset Mr. Charles, gent of this parish, because I am sure he would have some good inside information.
All this EU shite was forced on the Great British Public largely against their wishes, and if we exit the EU, (which I am against ) our politicians will be largely to blame for past deeds . You can fling shit on the proles for only so long, then they revolt...
Is it just me or are Remainers jumping into the deep end of hyperbole - again?
Other types of racists who might vote Remain are those who despise their own countrymen, or who dislike White people and think they need to "have their noses rubbed in diversity". And among leftward-leaning students who overwhelmingly support Remain, there's a strong strain of anti-semitism.
And of course, Sinn Fein support Remain.
We import 260,000 or so non-EU workers per year, with about 100,000 being on high skilled visas.
The need for the remaining 160,000 will come sharply into focus if we vote Remain.
28 are in the EU and a declining global GDP market - the other 166 or so aren't.
I fail to see what's so attractive about the EU myself. It's a Regulation Zone, nothing more.
(And I used that word deliberately - some insurance companies increase or lower their rates towards the end of the day if their targets have or haven't been met.)
I fail to see how this helps the Remain argument. Who in their right mind would take in everyone with no skills or little economic raising value because they were a tiny % of the world's available bright sparks?
Seriously, it makes zero sense. I'd swap Roma pickpockets for Chinese takeaway owners everyday.
Faisal was an arse. As I expected. His manner gave more votes to Leave IMO.
Sky's GoggleBox family was universally positive for Leave/Gove - he was seen as credible and genuine, even the staunch young lady for Remain confessed to liking him despite hating the Tories.
I'm very firm here - Britain is a proud nation that's been whittled away at for decade by apologists, haters and the wobble bottoms.
I've no doubts about what we can achieve. We did it for 1000yrs before the tentacles of the EEC sapped some peoples self confidence.
Following your prognostications to their logical conclusion, the only way for Labour to get into power before 2020 is to vote Leave. That's if you have faith in your leader.
Ah, I see the problem now.
The trouble with the EU referendum (any referendum) is that a binary conclusion has to be reached. One side is going to win the argument at a practical level and see their will enacted - but neither side will win at a philosophical level and the losers will be left utterly perplexed as to what has happened.