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Comments
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I've got a Masters. I was invited by my uni to do a PhD but said I'd prefer to go into the private sector and earn some real money!Philip_Thompson said:
I've got a Masters. I was surprised the list didn't have a "postgraduate (or higher)" breakdown.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Well, I've got a PhD and I'm voting LEAVERoger said:
Wouldn't 'Highest qualification GCSE or lower' cover Sun Express and Mail readers?NickPalmer said:Interesting graph of which sort of people support what:
https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/738355219562696706/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
- notable that The Times readers lean towards Remain and Telegraph readers are only modestly Leavers, and for most of the other papers except the Guardian it's not as clear-cut as you might expect. Conversely there's only a relatively modest Remain lead in the AB category.
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It isn't ALL Lib Dem voters I was talking about, Stodge - just that one. And there are ill-informed voters voting for all parties.stodge said:Unfortunately I also have Cookie and Bedfordshire Paul for company and if they cut out the snide remarks about the Lib Dems we'd all be much happier.
I don't accuse the Conservatives on here of wanting to privatise their grandparents, sell babies and condemn the poor to a lifetime of indentured servitude.
That just wouldn't be right...0 -
Yeah I should have done that....Casino_Royale said:
I've got a Masters. I was invited by my uni to do a PhD but said I'd prefer to go into the private sector and earn some real money!Philip_Thompson said:
I've got a Masters. I was surprised the list didn't have a "postgraduate (or higher)" breakdown.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Well, I've got a PhD and I'm voting LEAVERoger said:
Wouldn't 'Highest qualification GCSE or lower' cover Sun Express and Mail readers?NickPalmer said:Interesting graph of which sort of people support what:
https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/738355219562696706/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
- notable that The Times readers lean towards Remain and Telegraph readers are only modestly Leavers, and for most of the other papers except the Guardian it's not as clear-cut as you might expect. Conversely there's only a relatively modest Remain lead in the AB category.
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Strange bedfellows indeed. But all the more fun for that. Richard Nabavi, guardian reader, has a certain ring about it!stodge said:Afternoon all
Cheer up, DavidL - you've got me as well as Casino R.
I'm in direct opposition to the party I've supported as a member and activist for 35 years and perhaps my "yellow brick road" has come to a parting of the ways...
By the way, even more worrying for me is CR's ideal vision of the future as posted earlier is exactly the same as mine so there you go !!
The times, they are a changin, as Mr Zimmerman once informed us.0 -
I was being a bit facetious but the Libdems are the only party are unreservedly pro EU and being anti EU in the libdems would seem as out of place as a person in the Lsbour party advocating a flat rate of income tax.Cookie said:
It isn't ALL Lib Dem voters I was talking about, Stodge - just that one. And there are ill-informed voters voting for all parties.stodge said:Unfortunately I also have Cookie and Bedfordshire Paul for company and if they cut out the snide remarks about the Lib Dems we'd all be much happier.
I don't accuse the Conservatives on here of wanting to privatise their grandparents, sell babies and condemn the poor to a lifetime of indentured servitude.
That just wouldn't be right...0 -
Given the alleged contents of the Chilcott report that may prove to have been a very wise precaution!Morris_Dancer said:Dr. Foxinsox, you should inform your father than Jack Straw, when Home Secretary, removed the death penalty from the final offences that otherwise would've incurred the punishment.
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Not sure he has room for a newspaper where he currently seems to have inserted himselfDavidL said:
Strange bedfellows indeed. But all the more fun for that. Richard Nabavi, guardian reader, has a certain ring about it!stodge said:Afternoon all
Cheer up, DavidL - you've got me as well as Casino R.
I'm in direct opposition to the party I've supported as a member and activist for 35 years and perhaps my "yellow brick road" has come to a parting of the ways...
By the way, even more worrying for me is CR's ideal vision of the future as posted earlier is exactly the same as mine so there you go !!
The times, they are a changin, as Mr Zimmerman once informed us.
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Which bit?stodge said:Unfortunately I also have Cookie and Bedfordshire Paul for company and if they cut out the snide remarks about the Lib Dems we'd all be much happier.
I don't accuse the Conservatives on here of wanting to privatise their grandparents, sell babies and condemn the poor to a lifetime of indentured servitude.
That just wouldn't be right...0 -
The beheading at the Tower bit went out a good few home secretaries ago.DavidL said:
Given the alleged contents of the Chilcott report that may prove to have been a very wise precaution!Morris_Dancer said:Dr. Foxinsox, you should inform your father than Jack Straw, when Home Secretary, removed the death penalty from the final offences that otherwise would've incurred the punishment.
Alas the wooden axe and block that was outside the tourist shop at Tower Hill and a favourite for tourists to photo each other pretending to chop each others heads off mysteriously vanished a year or two back after lopping off heads came back into fashion in certain quarters.0 -
I think that rules of procedure are not in the front of his mind!Morris_Dancer said:Dr. Foxinsox, you should inform your father than Jack Straw, when Home Secretary, removed the death penalty from the final offences that otherwise would've incurred the punishment.
On the subject of the FT breakdown, I think that the polls have not budged enough from March to invalidate the breakdown.0 -
Toenails mark2?Indigo said:
Not sure he has room for a newspaper where he currently seems to have inserted himselfDavidL said:
Strange bedfellows indeed. But all the more fun for that. Richard Nabavi, guardian reader, has a certain ring about it!stodge said:Afternoon all
Cheer up, DavidL - you've got me as well as Casino R.
I'm in direct opposition to the party I've supported as a member and activist for 35 years and perhaps my "yellow brick road" has come to a parting of the ways...
By the way, even more worrying for me is CR's ideal vision of the future as posted earlier is exactly the same as mine so there you go !!
The times, they are a changin, as Mr Zimmerman once informed us.
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Libdems used to attract 40%+ of their vote from eurosceptics.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
I was being a bit facetious but the Libdems are the only party are unreservedly pro EU and being anti EU in the libdems would seem as out of place as a person in the Lsbour party advocating a flat rate of income tax.Cookie said:
It isn't ALL Lib Dem voters I was talking about, Stodge - just that one. And there are ill-informed voters voting for all parties.stodge said:Unfortunately I also have Cookie and Bedfordshire Paul for company and if they cut out the snide remarks about the Lib Dems we'd all be much happier.
I don't accuse the Conservatives on here of wanting to privatise their grandparents, sell babies and condemn the poor to a lifetime of indentured servitude.
That just wouldn't be right...
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That table explains why the Mail, Express and the Sun are taking the line that they do and why they are unlikely to be the difference. Their readers are overwhelmingly anti-EU, so they are following, not leading. And because they are largely preaching to the converted, they aren't changing many votes.0
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Off topic this is sad, if somewhat inevitable news: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36437445
I was in Austin Reed's this morning buying a new suit. The staff were understandably pretty miserable and to be honest I felt a bit predatory. It is hard to see our traditional high streets surviving continued blows like this.0 -
And the Guardian?AlastairMeeks said:That table explains why the Mail, Express and the Sun are taking the line that they do and why they are unlikely to be the difference. Their readers are overwhelmingly anti-EU, so they are following, not leading. And because they are largely preaching to the converted, they aren't changing many votes.
Edit, on reflection their main task is to provide lines to take for the BBC. But the same principle applies.0 -
@Cookie:
Thanks for the kind word - my journey away from the EU has been made more in sorrow than anger and is primarily the realisation the policy of somehow the EU will reform itself to become what we want it to be simply won't or indeed can't happen.
I'm no isolationist - as CR said earlier, the ideal was for nations to collaborate and co-operate at regional and indeed global level where appropriate (and God knows, from migration to tax evasion and from pollution to climate change there are plenty of areas for that collaboration) but the EU has gone beyond that and seeks to tell us how to live our lives by imposed diktat.
I won't take that from a Conservative or Labour politician (and both have tried) but at least I can vote them out in a General Election. The Single Market benefits Germany and us disproportionately - if the aim is to enrich and improve the poorer states of Europe then let's do that but let's be open about it.
The decision to admit the former Warsaw Pact nations was predicated on nothing more than the availability of a new source of cheap labour to maintain the German and British economies. The British economy grows without making the capital investment in productivity-improving new processes and technologies and in East Ham I see the outcome of all this up close and personal on a day to day basis with men sleeping rough under the A13.
People have always gone to the money but the EU had the opportunity to spread the wealth of northern and western Europe to the south and eventually the east but Greece, Spain and Portugal have been scarred by a Euro-induced economic depression.
Britain has to take its share of the blame - we failed to get involved in the 1950s when we had the chance and we have dragged behind the whole enterprise like a petulant child after its mother. Both Winston Churchill and Ernest Bevin (political giants but hardly political soul mates) realised that Britain was culturally and politically distinct from Europe.
I wish Europe well - we need it to succeed, we need it to work but the EU isn't the mechanism for that. I've long argued on here for a re-invigorated EFTA led by Britain as a counterpoint to the EU and despite all the rhetoric and threats, my guess is a lot of people on both sides will want that to happen quickly and work well if we vote to LEAVE.0 -
@DavidL The mirror image.0
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Does anyone know what weighting the phone polls are giving graduates in E.U polls apperently it is supposed to be about 40%.0
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Not surprising I guess. Welding yourself to a corrupt undemocratic federation is not wholly in line with classic Liberal principles of democracy and the rule of law.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Libdems used to attract 40%+ of their vote from eurosceptics.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
I was being a bit facetious but the Libdems are the only party are unreservedly pro EU and being anti EU in the libdems would seem as out of place as a person in the Lsbour party advocating a flat rate of income tax.Cookie said:
It isn't ALL Lib Dem voters I was talking about, Stodge - just that one. And there are ill-informed voters voting for all parties.stodge said:Unfortunately I also have Cookie and Bedfordshire Paul for company and if they cut out the snide remarks about the Lib Dems we'd all be much happier.
I don't accuse the Conservatives on here of wanting to privatise their grandparents, sell babies and condemn the poor to a lifetime of indentured servitude.
That just wouldn't be right...
Its a pity because some aspects of liberalism of the orange book type are rather noble.0 -
Indeed. If ideas from the government were still being sifted through the Coalition Quad we wouldn't have had so many silly ones since the electionPaul_Bedfordshire said:
Not surprising I guess. Welding yourself to a corrupt undemocratic federation is not wholly in line with classic Liberal principles of democracy and the rule of law.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Libdems used to attract 40%+ of their vote from eurosceptics.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
I was being a bit facetious but the Libdems are the only party are unreservedly pro EU and being anti EU in the libdems would seem as out of place as a person in the Lsbour party advocating a flat rate of income tax.Cookie said:
It isn't ALL Lib Dem voters I was talking about, Stodge - just that one. And there are ill-informed voters voting for all parties.stodge said:Unfortunately I also have Cookie and Bedfordshire Paul for company and if they cut out the snide remarks about the Lib Dems we'd all be much happier.
I don't accuse the Conservatives on here of wanting to privatise their grandparents, sell babies and condemn the poor to a lifetime of indentured servitude.
That just wouldn't be right...
Its a pity because some aspects of liberalism of the orange book type are rather noble.0 -
''I was in Austin Reed's this morning buying a new suit.''
Inevitable I guess.
They just can;t compete with online shopping and discount stories like TK Maxx.0 -
Thanks @Stodge - interesting, and I don't find a lot I can disagree with there. Though I WAS in favour of the admission of Eastern Europe at the time, as I thought it would cement western values there and also mean that Europe would have to stop its headlong rush to integrate. In retrospect, I was certainly wrong about the latter.0
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It's the influence of the social democrats.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
I was being a bit facetious but the Libdems are the only party are unreservedly pro EU and being anti EU in the libdems would seem as out of place as a person in the Lsbour party advocating a flat rate of income tax.Cookie said:
It isn't ALL Lib Dem voters I was talking about, Stodge - just that one. And there are ill-informed voters voting for all parties.stodge said:Unfortunately I also have Cookie and Bedfordshire Paul for company and if they cut out the snide remarks about the Lib Dems we'd all be much happier.
I don't accuse the Conservatives on here of wanting to privatise their grandparents, sell babies and condemn the poor to a lifetime of indentured servitude.
That just wouldn't be right...
Traditional liberals would find the EU abhorrent.0 -
Cant disagree with that - alas we wouldn't have this referendum either.DavidL said:
Indeed. If ideas from the government were still being sifted through the Coalition Quad we wouldn't have had so many silly ones since the electionPaul_Bedfordshire said:
Not surprising I guess. Welding yourself to a corrupt undemocratic federation is not wholly in line with classic Liberal principles of democracy and the rule of law.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Libdems used to attract 40%+ of their vote from eurosceptics.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
I was being a bit facetious but the Libdems are the only party are unreservedly pro EU and being anti EU in the libdems would seem as out of place as a person in the Lsbour party advocating a flat rate of income tax.Cookie said:
It isn't ALL Lib Dem voters I was talking about, Stodge - just that one. And there are ill-informed voters voting for all parties.stodge said:Unfortunately I also have Cookie and Bedfordshire Paul for company and if they cut out the snide remarks about the Lib Dems we'd all be much happier.
I don't accuse the Conservatives on here of wanting to privatise their grandparents, sell babies and condemn the poor to a lifetime of indentured servitude.
That just wouldn't be right...
Its a pity because some aspects of liberalism of the orange book type are rather noble.
The lasting achievement of tbe libdems in coalition will be to provide a textbook examp,e of how it should be done to provide responsible stable government.A skill that will be increasingly needed as the two party system breaks down.0 -
I just don't know how the BBC gets away with it, to be honest.DavidL said:
And the Guardian?AlastairMeeks said:That table explains why the Mail, Express and the Sun are taking the line that they do and why they are unlikely to be the difference. Their readers are overwhelmingly anti-EU, so they are following, not leading. And because they are largely preaching to the converted, they aren't changing many votes.
Edit, on reflection their main task is to provide lines to take for the BBC. But the same principle applies.
It's outrageous.0 -
Delighted to see this new fiver is coming: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36432951Paul_Bedfordshire said:I'm surprised only 60% of Libdems are for Remain. I thought the EU was the source and summit of their religion.
Meanwhile after being threatened by Frau Merkel I am beggining to think that the person behind the Halt ze German Advance poster on the M40 had a point.
We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall vote leave on the beaches, we shall vote leave on the landing grounds, we shall vote leave in the fields and in the streets, we shall vote leave in the hills; we shall never surrender.0 -
A lot of people thought the same about E Europe.Cookie said:Thanks @Stodge - interesting, and I don't find a lot I can disagree with there. Though I WAS in favour of the admission of Eastern Europe at the time, as I thought it would cement western values there and also mean that Europe would have to stop its headlong rush to integrate. In retrospect, I was certainly wrong about the latter.
The wider the EU is, the shallower it becomes.
I still think that it was right to get them on board if only to stop any potential drift back towards communism during the mid to late 90's.0 -
Ugh, but it's plastic.Casino_Royale said:
Delighted to see this new fiver is coming: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36432951Paul_Bedfordshire said:I'm surprised only 60% of Libdems are for Remain. I thought the EU was the source and summit of their religion.
Meanwhile after being threatened by Frau Merkel I am beggining to think that the person behind the Halt ze German Advance poster on the M40 had a point.
We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall vote leave on the beaches, we shall vote leave on the landing grounds, we shall vote leave in the fields and in the streets, we shall vote leave in the hills; we shall never surrender.0 -
The hovercraft is full of eels.DavidL said:The EU quiz on this page is quite good fun. Through some stupidity and carelessness I only got 20 out of 28.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news
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They are providing motivation though and the Sun has the readership that most broadly reflects the electorate with a blend of Con, Lab, UKIP readers.AlastairMeeks said:That table explains why the Mail, Express and the Sun are taking the line that they do and why they are unlikely to be the difference. Their readers are overwhelmingly anti-EU, so they are following, not leading. And because they are largely preaching to the converted, they aren't changing many votes.
I haven't seen the Daily Mirror but they talk for the rump of the Labour (UKIP vulnerable) vote.0 -
Actually I need a sports jacket.dr_spyn said:@Taffys I bought some shoes, there are some very good suits, sports jackets, shirts worth buying. If any other PBer or offspring needs formal work clothes, make the effort.
It looks as if Austin Reed's management buyout has failed badly.
Thanks for the tip0 -
Thanks for posting that table. We really are a divided nation on this. One half of the population is not going to be happy.
We often talk about the implication of splits for political parties. I wonder what the implications are for this country.
I doubt Eurosceptics will shut up shop if we vote Remain. Equally, if we vote Leave there will be a whole new Eurosceptic-sceptic group to contend with.
It could be messy.0 -
stodge - I agree with much of your sentiment though I have come to a different conclusion. Don't forget the southern countries have benefited a great deal from structural funds and were growing faster than the northern countries in the run up to 2008. It isn't clear where they go now though. As I understand it they are all supposed to copy Germany - which has relied on a large export surplus - I'd be interested to know where they are all going to export that surplus to since someone would have to be running a deficit.0
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On this one issue, a party blend does not mean reflecting the electorate.chestnut said:
They are providing motivation though and the Sun has the readership that most broadly reflects the electorate with a blend of Con, Lab, UKIP readers.AlastairMeeks said:That table explains why the Mail, Express and the Sun are taking the line that they do and why they are unlikely to be the difference. Their readers are overwhelmingly anti-EU, so they are following, not leading. And because they are largely preaching to the converted, they aren't changing many votes.
I haven't seen the Daily Mirror but they talk for the rump of the Labour (UKIP vulnerable) vote.
Labour clearly don't love the BBC either.Casino_Royale said:
I just don't know how the BBC gets away with it, to be honest.DavidL said:
And the Guardian?AlastairMeeks said:That table explains why the Mail, Express and the Sun are taking the line that they do and why they are unlikely to be the difference. Their readers are overwhelmingly anti-EU, so they are following, not leading. And because they are largely preaching to the converted, they aren't changing many votes.
Edit, on reflection their main task is to provide lines to take for the BBC. But the same principle applies.
It's outrageous.0 -
Electoral Commision on that latest foul up. No real details of which areas, which councils, which contractor.
http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/electoral-commission-media-centre/news-releases-referendums/electoral-commission-statement-on-non-eligible-eu-citizen-voters
@DavidL I too felt as if I was a predator at Austin Reeds, picking over the remains.
I did wonder about the all or nothing attempt by the Administrators to sell it off was over ambitious.0 -
Gets away with what?Casino_Royale said:
I just don't know how the BBC gets away with it, to be honest.DavidL said:
And the Guardian?AlastairMeeks said:That table explains why the Mail, Express and the Sun are taking the line that they do and why they are unlikely to be the difference. Their readers are overwhelmingly anti-EU, so they are following, not leading. And because they are largely preaching to the converted, they aren't changing many votes.
Edit, on reflection their main task is to provide lines to take for the BBC. But the same principle applies.
It's outrageous.0 -
Countries like Portugal and Spain and Greece self-evidently benefited more from Europe than they lost in the crisis. Not just as economies, but as democracies. In a way it was like the much smaller positive impact on the UK of having to live up to minimal workers' rights and human rights standards. In all those coutries, most citizens want to keep the euro because before that they endured competitive devaluations to make up for productivity losses, destroying their wealth and the incentive to develop a modern economy based on diverse investments.FrankBooth said:stodge - I agree with much of your sentiment though I have come to a different conclusion. Don't forget the southern countries have benefited a great deal from structural funds and were growing faster than the northern countries in the run up to 2008. It isn't clear where they go now though. As I understand it they are all supposed to copy Germany - which has relied on a large export surplus - I'd be interested to know where they are all going to export that surplus to since someone would have to be running a deficit.
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So am I, being as we have a finger in the pie of its manufacture.Casino_Royale said:
Delighted to see this new fiver is coming: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36432951Paul_Bedfordshire said:I'm surprised only 60% of Libdems are for Remain. I thought the EU was the source and summit of their religion.
Meanwhile after being threatened by Frau Merkel I am beggining to think that the person behind the Halt ze German Advance poster on the M40 had a point.
We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall vote leave on the beaches, we shall vote leave on the landing grounds, we shall vote leave in the fields and in the streets, we shall vote leave in the hills; we shall never surrender.0 -
Me too.Cookie said:Thanks @Stodge - interesting, and I don't find a lot I can disagree with there. Though I WAS in favour of the admission of Eastern Europe at the time, as I thought it would cement western values there and also mean that Europe would have to stop its headlong rush to integrate. In retrospect, I was certainly wrong about the latter.
Once bitten, twice shy just doesn't really cut it, does it?0 -
It's bias on the EU ref, in particular, and on public policy in general where they always attack from the Left.Wanderer said:
Gets away with what?Casino_Royale said:
I just don't know how the BBC gets away with it, to be honest.DavidL said:
And the Guardian?AlastairMeeks said:That table explains why the Mail, Express and the Sun are taking the line that they do and why they are unlikely to be the difference. Their readers are overwhelmingly anti-EU, so they are following, not leading. And because they are largely preaching to the converted, they aren't changing many votes.
Edit, on reflection their main task is to provide lines to take for the BBC. But the same principle applies.
It's outrageous.
I doubt if barely 10% of those at Broadcasting House and TV centre support Brexit. And, boy, does it show.0 -
Trying to decide if I can be arsed with Cameron's bullshit at 8pm.0
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I'm still undecided about what turnout is going to be like.
ANECDOTE ALERT, but in my (reasonably politically-interested) circle, there's quite a lot of awareness now that the Referendum is happening, and a belief that it's a really important decision, but equally a lot of total bafflement about what a lot of the statistics and arguments mean, and how it's seemingly impossible to work out who to believe.0 -
Here you go, make a difference :-)Casino_Royale said:
It's bias on the EU ref, in particular, and on public policy in general where they always attack from the Left.Wanderer said:
Gets away with what?Casino_Royale said:
I just don't know how the BBC gets away with it, to be honest.DavidL said:
And the Guardian?AlastairMeeks said:That table explains why the Mail, Express and the Sun are taking the line that they do and why they are unlikely to be the difference. Their readers are overwhelmingly anti-EU, so they are following, not leading. And because they are largely preaching to the converted, they aren't changing many votes.
Edit, on reflection their main task is to provide lines to take for the BBC. But the same principle applies.
It's outrageous.
I doubt if barely 10% of those at Broadcasting House and TV centre support Brexit. And, boy, does it show.
https://www.change.org/p/the-bbc-the-immediate-sacking-of-laura-kuenssberg-from-the-bbc
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The scariest numbers in that table are the age group figures. Regardless of which way the result goes; age is surely the worst possible fault line for our society to divide along.Jonathan said:Thanks for posting that table. We really are a divided nation on this. One half of the population is not going to be happy.
Hello everyone. This is my first return visit to the site since I bowed out in March. I'm not sure if I'm staying - I'll gauge the atmosphere. Hope everyone is well.
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@Hertsmere Pubgoer
No, we got 1989 hideously and completely wrong and the consequences of those decisions finish up sleeping under the Canning Town flyover.
It was the best opportunity Europeans have had since 1919 to re-shape and re-define the European continent and ideal. We got it wrong in 1919, in 1945 the future was given to us by the conquering Russians from the east and the liberating Americans from the west.
In 1989, as Russia politically withdrew from the lands it had conquered in 1944-45, the West had a golden opportunity to define the future political and economic development of the former Warsaw Pact states. We could have nurtured them financially, politically and culturally ensuring liberal democracy, market economics and liberal social and cultural values took root.
Instead, we threw them into the EU recognising them as a source of cheap labour and cheap investment, buying up Black Sea properties for a song and generally indulging in a form of economic imperialism. Politically, we allowed the ex-Communists to reinvent themselves as democrats and allowed corruption and venality to remain and become the modus operandi for conducting business.
Successive conservative, socialist, social democratic and liberal political leaders got this wrong and badly wrong. Granted, we probably couldn't have stopped German Re-Unification but states like Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Romania and Bulgaria as well as the Baltic states should have been given economic and political targets to meet in terms of transparency, challenging corruption, political development and cultural change, supported by western European investment in terms of resources, both financial and human.
Only once those targets were met could these states have been allowed entry to the EU, the Euro (if they chose) and Schengen (if they also chose).
We have paid the price for our own (and that of the French, Germans and others) stupidity, short-termism and short-sightedness. As is often the case, we are exactly where we deserve to be and in what we deserve to be in.0 -
That's not a very good anecdote. An anecdote is meant to be a story that two or three men you know are voting LEAVE, and that this could be good news for LEAVE.Danny565 said:I'm still undecided about what turnout is going to be like.
ANECDOTE ALERT, but in my (reasonably politically-interested) circle, there's quite a lot of awareness now that the Referendum is happening, and a belief that it's a really important decision, but equally a lot of total bafflement about what a lot of the statistics and arguments mean, and how it's seemingly impossible to work out who to believe.0 -
Got to say I'm ready to move on. I want Remain to win, but will live with Leave. If that happens we all have to pull together and hope Leave have called our rosy separated future correctly. I do know I don't want another big referendum for a long, long time!!Jonathan said:Thanks for posting that table. We really are a divided nation on this. One half of the population is not going to be happy.
We often talk about the implication of splits for political parties. I wonder what the implications are for this country.
I doubt Eurosceptics will shut up shop if we vote Remain. Equally, if we vote Leave there will be a whole new Eurosceptic-sceptic group to contend with.
It could be messy.
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@Steven_Whaley Welcome back. I'm afraid I doubt you'll find the site any more relaxed than when you last visited. But stick around anyway.0
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Presumably Ryanair know their customer base as well as Wetherspoons do:
https://twitter.com/MarkKleinmanSky/status/7384202513192427520 -
Nah, no way. I don't do sacking demands. Not the sort of chap I am. She's also good at her job.SouthamObserver said:
Here you go, make a difference :-)Casino_Royale said:
It's bias on the EU ref, in particular, and on public policy in general where they always attack from the Left.Wanderer said:
Gets away with what?Casino_Royale said:
I just don't know how the BBC gets away with it, to be honest.DavidL said:
And the Guardian?AlastairMeeks said:That table explains why the Mail, Express and the Sun are taking the line that they do and why they are unlikely to be the difference. Their readers are overwhelmingly anti-EU, so they are following, not leading. And because they are largely preaching to the converted, they aren't changing many votes.
Edit, on reflection their main task is to provide lines to take for the BBC. But the same principle applies.
It's outrageous.
I doubt if barely 10% of those at Broadcasting House and TV centre support Brexit. And, boy, does it show.
https://www.change.org/p/the-bbc-the-immediate-sacking-of-laura-kuenssberg-from-the-bbc
Besides which, and I really don't know why she does this to me, but I find her really smoking.
(If I'm still allowed to say that without the sexism police getting on my back)0 -
What a disgusting elitist comment you vile, rattled Quisling.AlastairMeeks said:@Steven_Whaley Welcome back. I'm afraid I doubt you'll find the site any more relaxed than when you last visited. But stick around anyway.
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But are they as popular with their customer base?AlastairMeeks said:Presumably Ryanair know their customer base as well as Wetherspoons do:
https://twitter.com/MarkKleinmanSky/status/7384202513192427520 -
Turnout will be big-ish. I've backed the BF 65-70 band, which is GE territory.Danny565 said:I'm still undecided about what turnout is going to be like.
ANECDOTE ALERT, but in my (reasonably politically-interested) circle, there's quite a lot of awareness now that the Referendum is happening, and a belief that it's a really important decision, but equally a lot of total bafflement about what a lot of the statistics and arguments mean, and how it's seemingly impossible to work out who to believe.
The truth of the matter, I think, is that there is very little to choose between Remain and Leave in terms of actual impact within the timeframe we can foresee. If the EU goes wrong then leaving will have been the smart thing, but on the other hand if we as a nation repeat the last 100 years of 'wise decisions' then Brexit will be bad.
The principal worrying thing about this referendum is that not a single politician (so far as I can tell) has managed to avoid spouting nonsense. They're all trying to polarise the question whereas in fact this is a grey issue.
(My vote is currently undecided)0 -
Getting into the Leave spirit by popping back to the 1950's?taffys said:
Actually I need a sports jacket.dr_spyn said:@Taffys I bought some shoes, there are some very good suits, sports jackets, shirts worth buying. If any other PBer or offspring needs formal work clothes, make the effort.
It looks as if Austin Reed's management buyout has failed badly.
Thanks for the tip0 -
I don't suppose any news organization can ever be completely impartial but the BBC does a very good job of trying, imo. It attracts complaints of bias from both sides of the aisle which is what you'd expect if it were even-handed. I couldn't guess what the personal views of its people are from its output.Casino_Royale said:
It's bias on the EU ref, in particular, and on public policy in general where they always attack from the Left.Wanderer said:
Gets away with what?Casino_Royale said:
I just don't know how the BBC gets away with it, to be honest.DavidL said:
And the Guardian?AlastairMeeks said:That table explains why the Mail, Express and the Sun are taking the line that they do and why they are unlikely to be the difference. Their readers are overwhelmingly anti-EU, so they are following, not leading. And because they are largely preaching to the converted, they aren't changing many votes.
Edit, on reflection their main task is to provide lines to take for the BBC. But the same principle applies.
It's outrageous.
I doubt if barely 10% of those at Broadcasting House and TV centre support Brexit. And, boy, does it show.0 -
Ha! I agree with you that LK is very good, one of the best political correspondents they've had.Casino_Royale said:
Nah, no way. I don't do sacking demands. Not the sort of chap I am. She's also good at her job.SouthamObserver said:
Here you go, make a difference :-)Casino_Royale said:
It's bias on the EU ref, in particular, and on public policy in general where they always attack from the Left.Wanderer said:
Gets away with what?Casino_Royale said:
I just don't know how the BBC gets away with it, to be honest.DavidL said:
And the Guardian?AlastairMeeks said:That table explains why the Mail, Express and the Sun are taking the line that they do and why they are unlikely to be the difference. Their readers are overwhelmingly anti-EU, so they are following, not leading. And because they are largely preaching to the converted, they aren't changing many votes.
Edit, on reflection their main task is to provide lines to take for the BBC. But the same principle applies.
It's outrageous.
I doubt if barely 10% of those at Broadcasting House and TV centre support Brexit. And, boy, does it show.
https://www.change.org/p/the-bbc-the-immediate-sacking-of-laura-kuenssberg-from-the-bbc
Besides which, and I really don't know why she does this to me, but I find her really smoking.
(If I'm still allowed to say that without the sexism police getting on my back)
On the smokingness .. I don't really see that.0 -
I really do not believe anyone who comes on this site and post, however infrequently, is remotely undecided about how they'll vote in June.
This site is no place for undecides, especially those who create a username and post.Omnium said:
Turnout will be big-ish. I've backed the BF 65-70 band, which is GE territory.Danny565 said:I'm still undecided about what turnout is going to be like.
ANECDOTE ALERT, but in my (reasonably politically-interested) circle, there's quite a lot of awareness now that the Referendum is happening, and a belief that it's a really important decision, but equally a lot of total bafflement about what a lot of the statistics and arguments mean, and how it's seemingly impossible to work out who to believe.
The truth of the matter, I think, is that there is very little to choose between Remain and Leave in terms of actual impact within the timeframe we can foresee. If the EU goes wrong then leaving will have been the smart thing, but on the other hand if we as a nation repeat the last 100 years of 'wise decisions' then Brexit will be bad.
The principal worrying thing about this referendum is that not a single politician (so far as I can tell) has managed to avoid spouting nonsense. They're all trying to polarise the question whereas in fact this is a grey issue.
(My vote is currently undecided)0 -
Laura K defo counts as totty.Casino_Royale said:
Nah, no way. I don't do sacking demands. Not the sort of chap I am. She's also good at her job.SouthamObserver said:
Here you go, make a difference :-)Casino_Royale said:
It's bias on the EU ref, in particular, and on public policy in general where they always attack from the Left.Wanderer said:
Gets away with what?Casino_Royale said:
I just don't know how the BBC gets away with it, to be honest.DavidL said:
And the Guardian?AlastairMeeks said:That table explains why the Mail, Express and the Sun are taking the line that they do and why they are unlikely to be the difference. Their readers are overwhelmingly anti-EU, so they are following, not leading. And because they are largely preaching to the converted, they aren't changing many votes.
Edit, on reflection their main task is to provide lines to take for the BBC. But the same principle applies.
It's outrageous.
I doubt if barely 10% of those at Broadcasting House and TV centre support Brexit. And, boy, does it show.
https://www.change.org/p/the-bbc-the-immediate-sacking-of-laura-kuenssberg-from-the-bbc
Besides which, and I really don't know why she does this to me, but I find her really smoking.
(If I'm still allowed to say that without the sexism police getting on my back)0 -
Tonight's BBC R4 6 oclock news had at 12 mins in the infamous Roger Harrabin with a full blooded endorsement of the EU as wonderful....Casino_Royale said:
I just don't know how the BBC gets away with it, to be honest.DavidL said:
And the Guardian?AlastairMeeks said:That table explains why the Mail, Express and the Sun are taking the line that they do and why they are unlikely to be the difference. Their readers are overwhelmingly anti-EU, so they are following, not leading. And because they are largely preaching to the converted, they aren't changing many votes.
Edit, on reflection their main task is to provide lines to take for the BBC. But the same principle applies.
It's outrageous.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07cmjxq
0 -
You've had a bad day Southam....Of all the things to get rattled by, that is really not that bad comrade.SouthamObserver said:
What a disgusting elitist comment you vile, rattled Quisling.AlastairMeeks said:@Steven_Whaley Welcome back. I'm afraid I doubt you'll find the site any more relaxed than when you last visited. But stick around anyway.
0 -
Welcome backSteven_Whaley said:
The scariest numbers in that table are the age group figures. Regardless of which way the result goes; age is surely the worst possible fault line for our society to divide along.Jonathan said:Thanks for posting that table. We really are a divided nation on this. One half of the population is not going to be happy.
Hello everyone. This is my first return visit to the site since I bowed out in March. I'm not sure if I'm staying - I'll gauge the atmosphere. Hope everyone is well. 0 -
I can't see anything wildly different on turnout when comparing the certain to vote percentages of Comres, ICM and Ipsos to last May. The numbers are at broadly the same point at the same time in the campaign. It infers somewhere in the 60s.0
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Thank you, Alastair, for the kind welcome.AlastairMeeks said:@Steven_Whaley Welcome back. I'm afraid I doubt you'll find the site any more relaxed than when you last visited. But stick around anyway.
I only intended to stay away over Easter but then, as time went on, it became a kind of experiment. I wondered if being away from such intense debate might modify my opinions in any way. To an extent it has, I think.
0 -
I would find it hard to guess that Andrew Neil was a strong student Tory and aligned to centre-right media during most of his career. He is a rigorous and balanced interviewer. Nor that Andrew Marr was one of these communists who became a roaring 90s liberal in the style of Mandelson.Wanderer said:
I don't suppose any news organization can ever be completely impartial but the BBC does a very good job of trying, imo. It attracts complaints of bias from both sides of the aisle which is what you'd expect if it were even-handed. I couldn't guess what the personal views of its people are from its output.Casino_Royale said:
It's bias on the EU ref, in particular, and on public policy in general where they always attack from the Left.Wanderer said:
Gets away with what?Casino_Royale said:
I just don't know how the BBC gets away with it, to be honest.DavidL said:
And the Guardian?AlastairMeeks said:That table explains why the Mail, Express and the Sun are taking the line that they do and why they are unlikely to be the difference. Their readers are overwhelmingly anti-EU, so they are following, not leading. And because they are largely preaching to the converted, they aren't changing many votes.
Edit, on reflection their main task is to provide lines to take for the BBC. But the same principle applies.
It's outrageous.
I doubt if barely 10% of those at Broadcasting House and TV centre support Brexit. And, boy, does it show.0 -
Casino_Royale said:
It's the influence of the social democrats.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
I was being a bit facetious but the Libdems are the only party are unreservedly pro EU and being anti EU in the libdems would seem as out of place as a person in the Lsbour party advocating a flat rate of income tax.Cookie said:
It isn't ALL Lib Dem voters I was talking about, Stodge - just that one. And there are ill-informed voters voting for all parties.stodge said:Unfortunately I also have Cookie and Bedfordshire Paul for company and if they cut out the snide remarks about the Lib Dems we'd all be much happier.
I don't accuse the Conservatives on here of wanting to privatise their grandparents, sell babies and condemn the poor to a lifetime of indentured servitude.
That just wouldn't be right...
Traditional liberals would find the EU abhorrent.
The EU is too protectionist and centralist for Liberals but suits the Social Democrat wing.
The last survey I saw showed about 25% of Lib Dems for LEAVE.0 -
0
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Welcome back! The atmosphere is a bit febrile and peevish at times, but it's mostly blue on blue, as Tory Remainers discover how nasty the press is and Tory Leavers discover that Cameron doesn't play fair - it's fun to watch.Steven_Whaley said:
The scariest numbers in that table are the age group figures. Regardless of which way the result goes; age is surely the worst possible fault line for our society to divide along.Jonathan said:Thanks for posting that table. We really are a divided nation on this. One half of the population is not going to be happy.
Hello everyone. This is my first return visit to the site since I bowed out in March. I'm not sure if I'm staying - I'll gauge the atmosphere. Hope everyone is well. We genuine Europhiles remain a small minority here, but are tolerated as endangered species, like aardvaarks.
0 -
I think you are terribly wrong Stodge on all fronts, but if you are a little bit right, by chance- I have one word for you....hindsight. You are speaking about something 30 years ago.
Hindsight is such a great thing to pontificate about.stodge said:@Hertsmere Pubgoer
No, we got 1989 hideously and completely wrong and the consequences of those decisions finish up sleeping under the Canning Town flyover.
It was the best opportunity Europeans have had since 1919 to re-shape and re-define the European continent and ideal. We got it wrong in 1919, in 1945 the future was given to us by the conquering Russians from the east and the liberating Americans from the west.
In 1989, as Russia politically withdrew from the lands it had conquered in 1944-45, the West had a golden opportunity to define the future political and economic development of the former Warsaw Pact states. We could have nurtured them financially, politically and culturally ensuring liberal democracy, market economics and liberal social and cultural values took root.
Instead, we threw them into the EU recognising them as a source of cheap labour and cheap investment, buying up Black Sea properties for a song and generally indulging in a form of economic imperialism. Politically, we allowed the ex-Communists to reinvent themselves as democrats and allowed corruption and venality to remain and become the modus operandi for conducting business.
Successive conservative, socialist, social democratic and liberal political leaders got this wrong and badly wrong. Granted, we probably couldn't have stopped German Re-Unification but states like Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Romania and Bulgaria as well as the Baltic states should have been given economic and political targets to meet in terms of transparency, challenging corruption, political development and cultural change, supported by western European investment in terms of resources, both financial and human.
Only once those targets were met could these states have been allowed entry to the EU, the Euro (if they chose) and Schengen (if they also chose).
We have paid the price for our own (and that of the French, Germans and others) stupidity, short-termism and short-sightedness. As is often the case, we are exactly where we deserve to be and in what we deserve to be in.0 -
I just listened. I'm astonished at how one-sided it was!TCPoliticalBetting said:
Tonight's BBC R4 6 oclock news had at 12 mins in the infamous Roger Harrabin with a full blooded endorsement of the EU as wonderful....Casino_Royale said:
I just don't know how the BBC gets away with it, to be honest.DavidL said:
And the Guardian?AlastairMeeks said:That table explains why the Mail, Express and the Sun are taking the line that they do and why they are unlikely to be the difference. Their readers are overwhelmingly anti-EU, so they are following, not leading. And because they are largely preaching to the converted, they aren't changing many votes.
Edit, on reflection their main task is to provide lines to take for the BBC. But the same principle applies.
It's outrageous.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07cmjxq
I think I'll complain.
0 -
foxinsoxuk said:
Suit you sir.taffys said:
Actually I need a sports jacket.dr_spyn said:@Taffys I bought some shoes, there are some very good suits, sports jackets, shirts worth buying. If any other PBer or offspring needs formal work clothes, make the effort.
It looks as if Austin Reed's management buyout has failed badly.
Thanks for the tip0 -
Good news for aardvaarks - they are not endangered.NickPalmer said:
Welcome back! The atmosphere is a bit febrile and peevish at times, but it's mostly blue on blue, as Tory Remainers discover how nasty the press is and Tory Leavers discover that Cameron doesn't play fair - it's fun to watch.Steven_Whaley said:
The scariest numbers in that table are the age group figures. Regardless of which way the result goes; age is surely the worst possible fault line for our society to divide along.Jonathan said:Thanks for posting that table. We really are a divided nation on this. One half of the population is not going to be happy.
Hello everyone. This is my first return visit to the site since I bowed out in March. I'm not sure if I'm staying - I'll gauge the atmosphere. Hope everyone is well. We genuine Europhiles remain a small minority here, but are tolerated as endangered species, like aardvaarks.
Extract from Wikipedia
It roams over most of the southern two-thirds of the African continent, avoiding areas that are mainly rocky. A nocturnal feeder, it subsists on ants and termites, which it will dig out of their hills using its sharp claws and powerful legs. It also digs to create burrows in which to live and rear its young. It receives a "least concern" rating from the IUCN, although its numbers seem to be decreasing.
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We can sometimes be a bit red on red Nick. I've got to say though Corbyn's attack on Osborne today was priceless, and most probably his best moment as leader.
You are right, the few lefties left here are mostly Euro luvviesNickPalmer said:
Welcome back! The atmosphere is a bit febrile and peevish at times, but it's mostly blue on blue, as Tory Remainers discover how nasty the press is and Tory Leavers discover that Cameron doesn't play fair - it's fun to watch.Steven_Whaley said:
The scariest numbers in that table are the age group figures. Regardless of which way the result goes; age is surely the worst possible fault line for our society to divide along.Jonathan said:Thanks for posting that table. We really are a divided nation on this. One half of the population is not going to be happy.
Hello everyone. This is my first return visit to the site since I bowed out in March. I'm not sure if I'm staying - I'll gauge the atmosphere. Hope everyone is well. We genuine Europhiles remain a small minority here, but are tolerated as endangered species, like aardvaarks.0 -
I hate to be pedantic Nick but I'm not sure the aardvark is endangered. Well, yet.NickPalmer said:
Welcome back! The atmosphere is a bit febrile and peevish at times, but it's mostly blue on blue, as Tory Remainers discover how nasty the press is and Tory Leavers discover that Cameron doesn't play fair - it's fun to watch.Steven_Whaley said:
The scariest numbers in that table are the age group figures. Regardless of which way the result goes; age is surely the worst possible fault line for our society to divide along.Jonathan said:Thanks for posting that table. We really are a divided nation on this. One half of the population is not going to be happy.
Hello everyone. This is my first return visit to the site since I bowed out in March. I'm not sure if I'm staying - I'll gauge the atmosphere. Hope everyone is well. We genuine Europhiles remain a small minority here, but are tolerated as endangered species, like aardvaarks.
Edit: sniped by Mr Evershed0 -
Well, excuse me, but I am undecided. Attracted by the simplicity that an independent nation represents, sovereignty granted by the people to a directly elected parliament; repelled by the anti-immigrant nastiness of many advocating Leave, however hard they try to hide that nastiness behind seemingly reasonable 'points systems' and ironic shouts of "racist" against themselves.tyson said:I really do not believe anyone who comes on this site and post, however infrequently, is remotely undecided about how they'll vote in June.
This site is no place for undecides, especially those who create a username and post.Omnium said:
Turnout will be big-ish. I've backed the BF 65-70 band, which is GE territory.Danny565 said:I'm still undecided about what turnout is going to be like.
ANECDOTE ALERT, but in my (reasonably politically-interested) circle, there's quite a lot of awareness now that the Referendum is happening, and a belief that it's a really important decision, but equally a lot of total bafflement about what a lot of the statistics and arguments mean, and how it's seemingly impossible to work out who to believe.
The truth of the matter, I think, is that there is very little to choose between Remain and Leave in terms of actual impact within the timeframe we can foresee. If the EU goes wrong then leaving will have been the smart thing, but on the other hand if we as a nation repeat the last 100 years of 'wise decisions' then Brexit will be bad.
The principal worrying thing about this referendum is that not a single politician (so far as I can tell) has managed to avoid spouting nonsense. They're all trying to polarise the question whereas in fact this is a grey issue.
(My vote is currently undecided)0 -
Even better. Nick's freudian slip suggests that there are many, many more of us lefties ready to regain our rightful place. Come on the Aardvark, come on us lefties, and come on the EU.Wanderer said:
I hate to be pedantic Nick but I'm not sure the aardvark is endangered. Well, yet.NickPalmer said:
Welcome back! The atmosphere is a bit febrile and peevish at times, but it's mostly blue on blue, as Tory Remainers discover how nasty the press is and Tory Leavers discover that Cameron doesn't play fair - it's fun to watch.Steven_Whaley said:
The scariest numbers in that table are the age group figures. Regardless of which way the result goes; age is surely the worst possible fault line for our society to divide along.Jonathan said:Thanks for posting that table. We really are a divided nation on this. One half of the population is not going to be happy.
Hello everyone. This is my first return visit to the site since I bowed out in March. I'm not sure if I'm staying - I'll gauge the atmosphere. Hope everyone is well. We genuine Europhiles remain a small minority here, but are tolerated as endangered species, like aardvaarks.
Edit: sniped by Mr Evershed0 -
Oooh, I didn't know there were any aardvaarks posting here!NickPalmer said:
Welcome back! The atmosphere is a bit febrile and peevish at times, but it's mostly blue on blue, as Tory Remainers discover how nasty the press is and Tory Leavers discover that Cameron doesn't play fair - it's fun to watch. We genuine Europhiles remain a small minority here, but are tolerated as endangered species, like aardvaarks.
Seriously though, thanks Nick. I'm glad to see that you're still here fighting your corner.
I have to say that I'm actually starting to warm to Jeremy Corbyn. As someone who has never voted Labour that's quite an interesting development. I've been hugely impressed by his contribution to the EU debate today - he's making a lot of the arguments that I wish the Remain campaign as a whole would make more time for.
Meanwhile the antics of both sides of the Conservative civil war make me despair - and, remember, I've voted Conservative at every GE.
For the first time in my life I feel closer to Labour than to the Conservatives!!! :O Make of that what you will...
0 -
Rexel, comrade. You are not an undecide....even though you may think you are. There is no way you will put a cross in the Brexit box. Trust me.Rexel56 said:
Well, excuse me, but I am undecided. Attracted by the simplicity that an independent nation represents, sovereignty granted by the people to a directly elected parliament; repelled by the anti-immigrant nastiness of many advocating Leave, however hard they try to hide that nastiness behind seemingly reasonable 'points systems' and ironic shouts of "racist" against themselves.tyson said:I really do not believe anyone who comes on this site and post, however infrequently, is remotely undecided about how they'll vote in June.
This site is no place for undecides, especially those who create a username and post.Omnium said:
Turnout will be big-ish. I've backed the BF 65-70 band, which is GE territory.Danny565 said:I'm still undecided about what turnout is going to be like.
ANECDOTE ALERT, but in my (reasonably politically-interested) circle, there's quite a lot of awareness now that the Referendum is happening, and a belief that it's a really important decision, but equally a lot of total bafflement about what a lot of the statistics and arguments mean, and how it's seemingly impossible to work out who to believe.
The truth of the matter, I think, is that there is very little to choose between Remain and Leave in terms of actual impact within the timeframe we can foresee. If the EU goes wrong then leaving will have been the smart thing, but on the other hand if we as a nation repeat the last 100 years of 'wise decisions' then Brexit will be bad.
The principal worrying thing about this referendum is that not a single politician (so far as I can tell) has managed to avoid spouting nonsense. They're all trying to polarise the question whereas in fact this is a grey issue.
(My vote is currently undecided)0 -
Evening all.
28 degrees where I am at the moment, glorious sunshine. Large gin, looking at the waves roll by.
I am absolutely ready for the moon howlers, the we shouldn't have started from here-ers, and the just plain extreme Leavers tonight.
Also looking forward to Dave getting a grilling. What's the format.0 -
Well you're wrong.tyson said:I really do not believe anyone who comes on this site and post, however infrequently, is remotely undecided about how they'll vote in June.
This site is no place for undecides, especially those who create a username and post.Omnium said:
Turnout will be big-ish. I've backed the BF 65-70 band, which is GE territory.Danny565 said:I'm still undecided about what turnout is going to be like.
ANECDOTE ALERT, but in my (reasonably politically-interested) circle, there's quite a lot of awareness now that the Referendum is happening, and a belief that it's a really important decision, but equally a lot of total bafflement about what a lot of the statistics and arguments mean, and how it's seemingly impossible to work out who to believe.
The truth of the matter, I think, is that there is very little to choose between Remain and Leave in terms of actual impact within the timeframe we can foresee. If the EU goes wrong then leaving will have been the smart thing, but on the other hand if we as a nation repeat the last 100 years of 'wise decisions' then Brexit will be bad.
The principal worrying thing about this referendum is that not a single politician (so far as I can tell) has managed to avoid spouting nonsense. They're all trying to polarise the question whereas in fact this is a grey issue.
(My vote is currently undecided)
On this issue I'm undecided.
I hope my further assertion on this will suffice.
0 -
Perfectly reasonable to be undecided. Even I a confirmed leaver occasionally have pangs of uneasiness. The latest being from Laura K's excellent little prog the other night as to the problems Brexit might cause for Airbus UK.Rexel56 said:
Well, excuse me, but I am undecided. Attracted by the simplicity that an independent nation represents, sovereignty granted by the people to a directly elected parliament; repelled by the anti-immigrant nastiness of many advocating Leave, however hard they try to hide that nastiness behind seemingly reasonable 'points systems' and ironic shouts of "racist" against themselves.tyson said:I really do not believe anyone who comes on this site and post, however infrequently, is remotely undecided about how they'll vote in June.
This site is no place for undecides, especially those who create a username and post.Omnium said:
Turnout will be big-ish. I've backed the BF 65-70 band, which is GE territory.Danny565 said:I'm still undecided about what turnout is going to be like.
ANECDOTE ALERT, but in my (reasonably politically-interested) circle, there's quite a lot of awareness now that the Referendum is happening, and a belief that it's a really important decision, but equally a lot of total bafflement about what a lot of the statistics and arguments mean, and how it's seemingly impossible to work out who to believe.
The truth of the matter, I think, is that there is very little to choose between Remain and Leave in terms of actual impact within the timeframe we can foresee. If the EU goes wrong then leaving will have been the smart thing, but on the other hand if we as a nation repeat the last 100 years of 'wise decisions' then Brexit will be bad.
The principal worrying thing about this referendum is that not a single politician (so far as I can tell) has managed to avoid spouting nonsense. They're all trying to polarise the question whereas in fact this is a grey issue.
(My vote is currently undecided)0 -
This aspect is covered in a recent debate by three polling experts shown on BBC Parliament atnunu said:Does anyone know what weighting the phone polls are giving graduates in E.U polls apperently it is supposed to be about 40%.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07gg96k
The conclusion was to use about 40% graduates based on how many there are and their propensity to vote. Telephone and Online polls seemed to have very different numbers of graduates in their surveys and may need to adjust.0 -
Sorry. That doesn't cut it for me. Deep down, you know who your'e voting for, even though you might be struggling with genuine Woody Allenesque neurosis. Eventually you know.
People who come onto this site are just too political.Omnium said:
Well you're wrong.tyson said:I really do not believe anyone who comes on this site and post, however infrequently, is remotely undecided about how they'll vote in June.
This site is no place for undecides, especially those who create a username and post.Omnium said:
Turnout will be big-ish. I've backed the BF 65-70 band, which is GE territory.Danny565 said:I'm still undecided about what turnout is going to be like.
ANECDOTE ALERT, but in my (reasonably politically-interested) circle, there's quite a lot of awareness now that the Referendum is happening, and a belief that it's a really important decision, but equally a lot of total bafflement about what a lot of the statistics and arguments mean, and how it's seemingly impossible to work out who to believe.
The truth of the matter, I think, is that there is very little to choose between Remain and Leave in terms of actual impact within the timeframe we can foresee. If the EU goes wrong then leaving will have been the smart thing, but on the other hand if we as a nation repeat the last 100 years of 'wise decisions' then Brexit will be bad.
The principal worrying thing about this referendum is that not a single politician (so far as I can tell) has managed to avoid spouting nonsense. They're all trying to polarise the question whereas in fact this is a grey issue.
(My vote is currently undecided)
On this issue I'm undecided.
I hope my further assertion on this will suffice.0 -
@Steven_Whaley
good evening. Don't remember you previously but then I am a relative newcomer. Welcome back regardless.
As for Jezza, if he had no history, and had just appreared as the benevolent, more in sorrow than anger geography teacher, then he would I'm sure have a lot more support (for example in the Labour Party) than he does now.
Sadly for old labourites, and old new labourites, he not only has baggage, but as we speak the party is seeking to reinvent itself as a leftist agitprop group.
That surely argues against sympathy or empathy for the man?0 -
Laura K is really good. The first political journalist I've really liked since John Cole.Norm said:
Perfectly reasonable to be undecided. Even I a confirmed leaver occasionally have pangs of uneasiness. The latest being from Laura K's excellent little prog the other night as to the problems Brexit might cause for Airbus UK.Rexel56 said:
Well, excuse me, but I am undecided. Attracted by the simplicity that an independent nation represents, sovereignty granted by the people to a directly elected parliament; repelled by the anti-immigrant nastiness of many advocating Leave, however hard they try to hide that nastiness behind seemingly reasonable 'points systems' and ironic shouts of "racist" against themselves.tyson said:I really do not believe anyone who comes on this site and post, however infrequently, is remotely undecided about how they'll vote in June.
This site is no place for undecides, especially those who create a username and post.Omnium said:
Turnout will be big-ish. I've backed the BF 65-70 band, which is GE territory.Danny565 said:I'm still undecided about what turnout is going to be like.
ANECDOTE ALERT, but in my (reasonably politically-interested) circle, there's quite a lot of awareness now that the Referendum is happening, and a belief that it's a really important decision, but equally a lot of total bafflement about what a lot of the statistics and arguments mean, and how it's seemingly impossible to work out who to believe.
The truth of the matter, I think, is that there is very little to choose between Remain and Leave in terms of actual impact within the timeframe we can foresee. If the EU goes wrong then leaving will have been the smart thing, but on the other hand if we as a nation repeat the last 100 years of 'wise decisions' then Brexit will be bad.
The principal worrying thing about this referendum is that not a single politician (so far as I can tell) has managed to avoid spouting nonsense. They're all trying to polarise the question whereas in fact this is a grey issue.
(My vote is currently undecided)
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California latest polls:
Pollster Clinton Sanders
NBC/WSJ/Marist 49 - 47
Field 45 43
SurveyUSA/KABC/SCNG 57 - 39
PPIC 46 - 44
YouGov/Hoover Institution 51 - 380 -
I don't remember John Cole - but apart from Andrew Neil she is the only one currently broadcasting who is worth watching.Omnium said:
Laura K is really good. The first political journalist I've really liked since John Cole.Norm said:
Perfectly reasonable to be undecided. Even I a confirmed leaver occasionally have pangs of uneasiness. The latest being from Laura K's excellent little prog the other night as to the problems Brexit might cause for Airbus UK.Rexel56 said:
Well, excuse me, but I am undecided. Attracted by the simplicity that an independent nation represents, sovereignty granted by the people to a directly elected parliament; repelled by the anti-immigrant nastiness of many advocating Leave, however hard they try to hide that nastiness behind seemingly reasonable 'points systems' and ironic shouts of "racist" against themselves.tyson said:I really do not believe anyone who comes on this site and post, however infrequently, is remotely undecided about how they'll vote in June.
This site is no place for undecides, especially those who create a username and post.Omnium said:
Turnout will be big-ish. I've backed the BF 65-70 band, which is GE territory.Danny565 said:I'm still undecided about what turnout is going to be like.
ANECDOTE ALERT, but in my (reasonably politically-interested) circle, there's quite a lot of awareness now that the Referendum is happening, and a belief that it's a really important decision, but equally a lot of total bafflement about what a lot of the statistics and arguments mean, and how it's seemingly impossible to work out who to believe.
The truth of the matter, I think, is that there is very little to choose between Remain and Leave in terms of actual impact within the timeframe we can foresee. If the EU goes wrong then leaving will have been the smart thing, but on the other hand if we as a nation repeat the last 100 years of 'wise decisions' then Brexit will be bad.
The principal worrying thing about this referendum is that not a single politician (so far as I can tell) has managed to avoid spouting nonsense. They're all trying to polarise the question whereas in fact this is a grey issue.
(My vote is currently undecided)0 -
I hope your duelling pistols are in good order!tyson said:Sorry. That doesn't cut it for me. Deep down, you know who your'e voting for, even though you might be struggling with genuine Woody Allenesque neurosis. Eventually you know.
People who come onto this site are just too political.Omnium said:
Well you're wrong.tyson said:I really do not believe anyone who comes on this site and post, however infrequently, is remotely undecided about how they'll vote in June.
This site is no place for undecides, especially those who create a username and post.Omnium said:
Turnout will be big-ish. I've backed the BF 65-70 band, which is GE territory.Danny565 said:I'm still undecided about what turnout is going to be like.
ANECDOTE ALERT, but in my (reasonably politically-interested) circle, there's quite a lot of awareness now that the Referendum is happening, and a belief that it's a really important decision, but equally a lot of total bafflement about what a lot of the statistics and arguments mean, and how it's seemingly impossible to work out who to believe.
The truth of the matter, I think, is that there is very little to choose between Remain and Leave in terms of actual impact within the timeframe we can foresee. If the EU goes wrong then leaving will have been the smart thing, but on the other hand if we as a nation repeat the last 100 years of 'wise decisions' then Brexit will be bad.
The principal worrying thing about this referendum is that not a single politician (so far as I can tell) has managed to avoid spouting nonsense. They're all trying to polarise the question whereas in fact this is a grey issue.
(My vote is currently undecided)
On this issue I'm undecided.
I hope my further assertion on this will suffice.
Really though it's just the truth. I am undecided on this issue. I don't have neuroses as far as I'm aware.
You are on thin ground here. It's a bit like me saying that deep down you want to be a mongoose, and that your denials only reinforce that.
If you on the other hand have a view (pretty indefensible if you don't given the above) then why don't you phrase it succinctly and persuasively and see if you can persuade me.
I'll genuinely look forwards to your wise words.0 -
Yes Harrabin acted as a spokesman for the EU. Remarkable and depressing how the BBC let this happen.RoyalBlue said:
I just listened. I'm astonished at how one-sided it was!TCPoliticalBetting said:
Tonight's BBC R4 6 oclock news had at 12 mins in the infamous Roger Harrabin with a full blooded endorsement of the EU as wonderful....Casino_Royale said:
I just don't know how the BBC gets away with it, to be honest.DavidL said:
And the Guardian?AlastairMeeks said:That table explains why the Mail, Express and the Sun are taking the line that they do and why they are unlikely to be the difference. Their readers are overwhelmingly anti-EU, so they are following, not leading. And because they are largely preaching to the converted, they aren't changing many votes.
Edit, on reflection their main task is to provide lines to take for the BBC. But the same principle applies.
It's outrageous.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07cmjxq
I think I'll complain.
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He's not someone who I'd really refer you back to. I think he had to be appreciated in context. However rather than leaving you empty handed let me steer you towards James Cameron. He was a great journalist.Mortimer said:
I don't remember John Cole - but apart from Andrew Neil she is the only one currently broadcasting who is worth watching.Omnium said:
Laura K is really good. The first political journalist I've really liked since John Cole.Norm said:
Perfectly reasonable to be undecided. Even I a confirmed leaver occasionally have pangs of uneasiness. The latest being from Laura K's excellent little prog the other night as to the problems Brexit might cause for Airbus UK.Rexel56 said:
Well, excuse me, but I am undecided. Attracted by the simplicity that an independent nation represents, sovereignty granted by the people to a directly elected parliament; repelled by the anti-immigrant nastiness of many advocating Leave, however hard they try to hide that nastiness behind seemingly reasonable 'points systems' and ironic shouts of "racist" against themselves.tyson said:I really do not believe anyone who comes on this site and post, however infrequently, is remotely undecided about how they'll vote in June.
This site is no place for undecides, especially those who create a username and post.Omnium said:
Turnout will be big-ish. I've backed the BF 65-70 band, which is GE territory.Danny565 said:I'm still undecided about what turnout is going to be like.
ANECDOTE ALERT, but in my (reasonably politically-interested) circle, there's quite a lot of awareness now that the Referendum is happening, and a belief that it's a really important decision, but equally a lot of total bafflement about what a lot of the statistics and arguments mean, and how it's seemingly impossible to work out who to believe.
The truth of the matter, I think, is that there is very little to choose between Remain and Leave in terms of actual impact within the timeframe we can foresee. If the EU goes wrong then leaving will have been the smart thing, but on the other hand if we as a nation repeat the last 100 years of 'wise decisions' then Brexit will be bad.
The principal worrying thing about this referendum is that not a single politician (so far as I can tell) has managed to avoid spouting nonsense. They're all trying to polarise the question whereas in fact this is a grey issue.
(My vote is currently undecided)0 -
My son in law works for Airbus and according to leave they are part of the elite and represent big business. That may be so but many many thousands of small business in the supply chain and the communities depend on their success and would be seriously effected by any rethink of the wing supply by Airbus in France who may want to relocate to Germany and Spain if the UK's exitsOmnium said:
Laura K is really good. The first political journalist I've really liked since John Cole.Norm said:
Perfectly reasonable to be undecided. Even I a confirmed leaver occasionally have pangs of uneasiness. The latest being from Laura K's excellent little prog the other night as to the problems Brexit might cause for Airbus UK.Rexel56 said:
Well, excuse me, but I am undecided. Attracted by the simplicity that an independent nation represents, sovereignty granted by the people to a directly elected parliament; repelled by the anti-immigrant nastiness of many advocating Leave, however hard they try to hide that nastiness behind seemingly reasonable 'points systems' and ironic shouts of "racist" against themselves.tyson said:I really do not believe anyone who comes on this site and post, however infrequently, is remotely undecided about how they'll vote in June.
This site is no place for undecides, especially those who create a username and post.Omnium said:
Turnout will be big-ish. I've backed the BF 65-70 band, which is GE territory.Danny565 said:I'm still undecided about what turnout is going to be like.
ANECDOTE ALERT, but in my (reasonably politically-interested) circle, there's quite a lot of awareness now that the Referendum is happening, and a belief that it's a really important decision, but equally a lot of total bafflement about what a lot of the statistics and arguments mean, and how it's seemingly impossible to work out who to believe.
The truth of the matter, I think, is that there is very little to choose between Remain and Leave in terms of actual impact within the timeframe we can foresee. If the EU goes wrong then leaving will have been the smart thing, but on the other hand if we as a nation repeat the last 100 years of 'wise decisions' then Brexit will be bad.
The principal worrying thing about this referendum is that not a single politician (so far as I can tell) has managed to avoid spouting nonsense. They're all trying to polarise the question whereas in fact this is a grey issue.
(My vote is currently undecided)0 -
Prince Louis of France in England's civil war of 1215-6.
http://yalebooksblog.co.uk/2016/06/02/forgotten-king-england-louis-viii/0 -
What makes you think there will be any problem at all? There are no tarriffs on goods within continental Europe between Iceland and Turkey, except for Belarus and Russia....Big_G_NorthWales said:
My son in law works for Airbus and according to leave they are part of the elite and represent big business. That may be so but many many thousands of small business in the supply chain and the communities depend on their success and would be seriously effected by any rethink of the wing supply by Airbus in France who may want to relocate to Germany and Spain if the UK's exitsOmnium said:
Laura K is really good. The first political journalist I've really liked since John Cole.Norm said:
Perfectly reasonable to be undecided. Even I a confirmed leaver occasionally have pangs of uneasiness. The latest being from Laura K's excellent little prog the other night as to the problems Brexit might cause for Airbus UK.Rexel56 said:
Well, excuse me, but I am undecided. Attracted by the simplicity that an independent nation represents, sovereignty granted by the people to a directly elected parliament; repelled by the anti-immigrant nastiness of many advocating Leave, however hard they try to hide that nastiness behind seemingly reasonable 'points systems' and ironic shouts of "racist" against themselves.tyson said:I really do not believe anyone who comes on this site and post, however infrequently, is remotely undecided about how they'll vote in June.
This site is no place for undecides, especially those who create a username and post.Omnium said:
Turnout will be big-ish. I've backed the BF 65-70 band, which is GE territory.Danny565 said:I'm still undecided about what turnout is going to be like.
ANECDOTE ALERT, but in my (reasonably politically-interested) circle, there's quite a lot of awareness now that the Referendum is happening, and a belief that it's a really important decision, but equally a lot of total bafflement about what a lot of the statistics and arguments mean, and how it's seemingly impossible to work out who to believe.
The truth of the matter, I think, is that there is very little to choose between Remain and Leave in terms of actual impact within the timeframe we can foresee. If the EU goes wrong then leaving will have been the smart thing, but on the other hand if we as a nation repeat the last 100 years of 'wise decisions' then Brexit will be bad.
The principal worrying thing about this referendum is that not a single politician (so far as I can tell) has managed to avoid spouting nonsense. They're all trying to polarise the question whereas in fact this is a grey issue.
(My vote is currently undecided)0 -
Jeremy is genuine and interested in discussing what needs to be done rather than personalities and scare stories. I'd like him for those qualities (in the same way that I like Letwin) even if I disliked his policies.Steven_Whaley said:
Oooh, I didn't know there were any aardvaarks posting here!NickPalmer said:
Welcome back! The atmosphere is a bit febrile and peevish at times, but it's mostly blue on blue, as Tory Remainers discover how nasty the press is and Tory Leavers discover that Cameron doesn't play fair - it's fun to watch. We genuine Europhiles remain a small minority here, but are tolerated as endangered species, like aardvaarks.
Seriously though, thanks Nick. I'm glad to see that you're still here fighting your corner.
I have to say that I'm actually starting to warm to Jeremy Corbyn. As someone who has never voted Labour that's quite an interesting development. I've been hugely impressed by his contribution to the EU debate today - he's making a lot of the arguments that I wish the Remain campaign as a whole would make more time for.
Meanwhile the antics of both sides of the Conservative civil war make me despair - and, remember, I've voted Conservative at every GE.
For the first time in my life I feel closer to Labour than to the Conservatives!!! :O Make of that what you will...
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Just seen the booing of LauraK. What a shower the Corbyn supporters are. The thought that these people could conceivably get into power given the problems mounting up for the conservatives, just chills me to the bone.
Ed Miliband's ex-advisor has just been on SKY and she said she hoped the PM would confirm he was going to protect Workers Rights. Is this the only reason they can think of to stay in the EU? Has jeremy Corbyn or any Labour MP commented on immigration. I think Labour are getting away with murder in this campaign. They are virtually invisible. Where is Alan Johnson (the most overrated politician ever) IMO?
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Phew!David_Evershed said:
Good news for aardvaarks - they are not endangered.NickPalmer said:
Welcome back! The atmosphere is a bit febrile and peevish at times, but it's mostly blue on blue, as Tory Remainers discover how nasty the press is and Tory Leavers discover that Cameron doesn't play fair - it's fun to watch.Steven_Whaley said:
The scariest numbers in that table are the age group figures. Regardless of which way the result goes; age is surely the worst possible fault line for our society to divide along.Jonathan said:Thanks for posting that table. We really are a divided nation on this. One half of the population is not going to be happy.
Hello everyone. This is my first return visit to the site since I bowed out in March. I'm not sure if I'm staying - I'll gauge the atmosphere. Hope everyone is well. We genuine Europhiles remain a small minority here, but are tolerated as endangered species, like aardvaarks.
Extract from Wikipedia
It roams over most of the southern two-thirds of the African continent, avoiding areas that are mainly rocky. A nocturnal feeder, it subsists on ants and termites, which it will dig out of their hills using its sharp claws and powerful legs. It also digs to create burrows in which to live and rear its young. It receives a "least concern" rating from the IUCN, although its numbers seem to be decreasing. 0 -
Well, excuse me, but I am undecided. Attracted by the simplicity that an independent nation represents, sovereignty granted by the people to a directly elected parliament; repelled by the anti-immigrant nastiness of many advocating Leave, however hard they try to hide that nastiness behind seemingly reasonable 'points systems' and ironic shouts of "racist" against themselves.
Perfectly reasonable to be undecided. Even I a confirmed leaver occasionally have pangs of uneasiness. The latest being from Laura K's excellent little prog the other night as to the problems Brexit might cause for Airbus UK.
Laura K is really good. The first political journalist I've really liked since John Cole.
My son in law works for Airbus and according to leave they are part of the elite and represent big business. That may be so but many many thousands of small business in the supply chain and the communities depend on their success and would be seriously effected by any rethink of the wing supply by Airbus in France who may want to relocate to Germany and Spain if the UK's exits
What makes you think there will be any problem at all? There are no tarriffs on goods within continental Europe between Iceland and Turkey, except for Belarus and Russia....
Head of Airbus in France indicated they could move production away from the UK ex Brexit0 -
Faisal Islam looking totally out of his depth.0
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Hmm. Dave saying that these are extraordinary times and that EU immigration will therefore tail off as the EU recovers.
Weak to middling at best.0
