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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This week’s PB/Polling matters TV show: June the 2nd Editio

SystemSystem Posts: 11,705
edited June 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This week’s PB/Polling matters TV show: June the 2nd Edition

In this week’s edition Keiran is joined by Rob Vance and Leo Barasi, where they discuss the latest EU polls – is Leave catching up? Keiran argues Leave should focus on immigration whilst Rob and Leo disagree  The also discuss the next Tory leader, is Michael Gove King or Kingmaker?

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    Erst?
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Secondus?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    Third :)
  • Options
    Not First.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,449



    I lived in Germany from 1998 to 2008, and I was also struck by the completely different attitude to thewas prevalent in the UK even then. They tended to see the EU as their family - irritating and awkward sometimes, but still "us". The UK attitude, in contrast, has been very much "us" and "them" for the last few decades. Personally, I put the most blame for this on the insidious nature of an enduring anti-EU campaign by the British press.

    I am not at all surprised and I don't believe it has a damn thing to do with the British Press. The UK has never been part of Europe in the same way that continental countries have. We have always been the awkward place off to the left that didn't give in to the Spanish, the French, the Dutch, the French again or the Germans, but we fought with them all to stop any of them getting too big and to preserve our own interests. We have always remained separate and have never been ruled by any of them, whilst they have repeatedly conquered and ruled each other (frequently until the UK put together an alliance and busted it up).

    Remember too, Mr. Enjineeya, the press exists to sell papers so they are more likely to reflect rather than lead opinion. If the UK press appears to you to be anti-EU that is because that is what their readers want to see. The old, probably apocryphal, headline, "Fog in the channel - Continent cut off", resonates because it captures a mood of the people of these islands.

    We do not belong in the EU, our whole history and tradition (legal, trading, whatever you like) goes against it. We will never be happy partners in this political construct and so it's probably best for all if we get out now. We can still be friends, we can cooperate when our interests collide (with have with Portugal since 1373), but we will never be comfortable "pooling sovereignty" to the level demanded by the EU.
    We were comfortable with "ever closer union" back in 1975. Our descent into insular paranoia since then has indeed been driven largely by media hostility to the EU project. Your claim that the media simply reflects, rather than forms, opinion is absurd. If that were true, we wouldn't have to worry about press freedom, for example.
    We were comfortable with "ever closer union" back in 1975.

    Citation please.

    Didn't the phrase come about in 1983?

    [Edit: apparently it's older, just popularised later as a metaphor for Europe's future]
    1957 in the Treaty of Rome
    Treaty of Rome, such a 1950s throwback. Let's party like it's 1958!

    :lol:
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    FPT

    @WeeJonnie

    "Mr Cameron was all in favour of the UK - and said that he believed it would "thrive outside the EU". Mr Cameron speaks with forked tongue."

    I am at a loss of Cameron's pronouncements. He has sad so many mutually contradictory things (and on occasions behaved in a way that give the lie to what he has said) that he has, for me, no credibility left at all. I now believe the man to be a shameless liar who will say anything for short term advantage and who cares for nothing but his own advantage.

    He is a blot on the body politic and the sooner he is consigned to the dustbin of history (preferably taking that incompetent clown Osborne with him) the better.
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,291
    Another administrative error, blame the IT system.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/02/referendum-voting-papers-sent-to-eu-nationals-by-mistake

    Voting papers sent to EU nationals in error.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,974
    Did he believe what he was saying then, or not?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    Dr. Spyn, the voting papers aspect stinks. How many have been sent? Will they be discarded as void?
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Not First.

    Mr. Stopper, Great to see you on here again! Shame you weren't around yesterday when we were discussing the Home Secretary's desire to reform the fire service.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    dr_spyn said:

    Another administrative error, blame the IT system.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/02/referendum-voting-papers-sent-to-eu-nationals-by-mistake

    Voting papers sent to EU nationals in error.

    Someone should be fired for this, surely. Or someone should resign.
  • Options
    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    An excellent debate recently about referendum polling by three polling experts on BBC Parliament at http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07gg96k

    A focus on the proportion of graduates in telephone versus online surveys.

    Also the importance of age and wealth on turnout as well as terminal education age.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    taffys said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Another administrative error, blame the IT system.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/02/referendum-voting-papers-sent-to-eu-nationals-by-mistake

    Voting papers sent to EU nationals in error.

    Someone should be fired for this, surely. Or someone should resign.
    The same goes for the instructions...
  • Options
    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Sean_F said:

    Did he believe what he was saying then, or not?
    Surviving and doing OK are low benchmarks for success really. Its perfectly possible to believe that we would survive Brexit but to also think that we would do better by staying in.

  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,291
    @Morris_Dancer The Electoral Commission haven't yet added any statements on this.
  • Options
    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    welshowl said:

    Erst?

    Uber alles?
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    FPT

    @WeeJonnie

    "Mr Cameron was all in favour of the UK - and said that he believed it would "thrive outside the EU". Mr Cameron speaks with forked tongue."

    I am at a loss of Cameron's pronouncements. He has sad so many mutually contradictory things (and on occasions behaved in a way that give the lie to what he has said) that he has, for me, no credibility left at all. I now believe the man to be a shameless liar who will say anything for short term advantage and who cares for nothing but his own advantage.

    He is a blot on the body politic and the sooner he is consigned to the dustbin of history (preferably taking that incompetent clown Osborne with him) the better.

    Desperate men do desperate things - it looks like Cameron, Osborne and the rest are now running around like headless chickens, no rhyme, reason, logic or consistency - witness Corby's trashing of the treasury report.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    dr_spyn said:

    @Morris_Dancer The Electoral Commission haven't yet added any statements on this.

    From the Telegraph:

    "They refused to confirm the number of people affected but said in two separate councils a total of seven people were given ballot papers when they shouldn't have been."
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    Dr. Spyn, I look forward to seeing what they say. The papers must be void, and we should know how many have been sent.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,715
    taffys said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Another administrative error, blame the IT system.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/02/referendum-voting-papers-sent-to-eu-nationals-by-mistake

    Voting papers sent to EU nationals in error.

    Someone should be fired for this, surely. Or someone should resign.
    David Cameron?
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    FPT @Sunil

    "Let's party like it's 1958!"

    And why not? A particularly good vintage :)
  • Options
    William_HWilliam_H Posts: 346
    Sean_F said:

    Did he believe what he was saying then, or not?
    Well, I could survive stabbing myself in the foot. I could do OK if I stabbed myself in the foot. I'd still rather not stab myself in the foot.
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    JonathanD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Did he believe what he was saying then, or not?
    Surviving and doing OK are low benchmarks for success really. Its perfectly possible to believe that we would survive Brexit but to also think that we would do better by staying in.

    Indeed. I'm not sure why Sunil keeps posting that. One can survive Ebola.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Sean_F said:

    Did he believe what he was saying then, or not?
    Perhaps he's a liar who always lies, including when he says he always lies?
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    FPT:
    tlg86 said:

    Monday 6 June: Hilary Benn, the shadow foreign secretary (Remain)

    Wednesday 8 June: George Osborne, the chancellor (Remain)

    Friday 10 June: Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader (Leave)

    Friday 17 June: Iain Duncan Smith, the former work and pensions secretary (Leave)

    Weird schedule timing to have Remain, then Remain, then Leave, then Leave. Would have expected Remain, Leave, Remain, Leave.
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    Sean_F said:

    Did he believe what he was saying then, or not?
    I'm voting Remain but I agree with what Cameron said then. Leaving isn't going to be a disaster, if it happens. The UK economy won't vanish. We won't stop being a major power.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    Mr. Thompson, I said the same thing. Great minds think alike.
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    FPT:

    tlg86 said:

    Monday 6 June: Hilary Benn, the shadow foreign secretary (Remain)

    Wednesday 8 June: George Osborne, the chancellor (Remain)

    Friday 10 June: Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader (Leave)

    Friday 17 June: Iain Duncan Smith, the former work and pensions secretary (Leave)

    Weird schedule timing to have Remain, then Remain, then Leave, then Leave. Would have expected Remain, Leave, Remain, Leave.
    What is going to be done to those people on those dates?
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Wanderer said:

    JonathanD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Did he believe what he was saying then, or not?
    Surviving and doing OK are low benchmarks for success really. Its perfectly possible to believe that we would survive Brexit but to also think that we would do better by staying in.

    Indeed. I'm not sure why Sunil keeps posting that. One can survive Ebola.
    Cameron's statement goes a bit beyond survival - including Britain doing 'ok'. Admittedly, I want Britain to do more than ok, but I think that is more likely to happen outside of the EU than in it, even if there is transitional pain.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,449
    Can't use "quote"!

    And the nesting's messed up!
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Hmmm... I see Vanilla is no longer recording how many posts the poster has made. And in the profile it lists visits, not posts. Any reason for this? It is not something that matters much to me, but I am curious as to why it has disappeared.
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    @MTimT Yes, he does talk about doing OK. I think we are doing a lot better than OK at the moment though.
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    The site appears to be merely surviving though :)
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    MTimT said:

    Hmmm... I see Vanilla is no longer recording how many posts the poster has made. And in the profile it lists visits, not posts. Any reason for this? It is not something that matters much to me, but I am curious as to why it has disappeared.

    And now they are back. Curious!
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    MTimT said:

    Hmmm... I see Vanilla is no longer recording how many posts the poster has made. And in the profile it lists visits, not posts. Any reason for this? It is not something that matters much to me, but I am curious as to why it has disappeared.

    First they take our likes, and now our counts :(
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,449

    Can't use "quote"!

    And the nesting's messed up!

    Phew, looks OK now!
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,449
    Wanderer said:

    The site appears to be merely surviving though :)

    Recovered from Ebola :)
  • Options
    John_N4John_N4 Posts: 553
    edited June 2016
    I haven't got 39 minutes to hear people discuss whether or not Leave should focus on immigration. What's the gist of the argument that they shouldn't?

    I'm voting Remain but I agree with what Cameron said then. Leaving isn't going to be a disaster, if it happens. The UK economy won't vanish. We won't stop being a major power.

    A country can't stop being what it's not. The US, Russia, Israel and China are the major powers. Germany's powerful within the little continent, and I am expecting them to be a player in the coming war with Russia, which Russia will win. Britain's got a tall pointy place called the City, with lots of island safe havens, but that isn't going to last long.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,427
    Clegg under OrderOrder's spotlight over undeclared expenses for election.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    John_N4 said:

    I haven't got 39 minutes to hear people discuss whether or not Leave should focus on immigration. What's the gist of the argument that they shouldn't?

    I'm voting Remain but I agree with what Cameron said then. Leaving isn't going to be a disaster, if it happens. The UK economy won't vanish. We won't stop being a major power.

    A country can't stop being what it's not. The US, Russia, Israel and China are the major powers. Germany's powerful within the little continent, and I am expecting them to be a player in the coming war with Russia, which Russia will win. Britain's got a tall pointy place called the City, with lots of island safe havens, but that isn't going to last long.
    Aren't we a cheery one!

    While agreeing that the UK is not a major power (but it is still a regional one with an international voice), I don't see the logic of Israel ranking as a major power when the UK does not.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @MrHarryCole: Disaster for Vote Leave as they're forced to evacuate plush Westminster HQ after building declared unsafe https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    @MrHarryCole: Vote Leave source told Sun 'there is water pouring through the ceiling' and it could be days before they get back in https://t.co/fQwcsgScit
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,449
    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Disaster for Vote Leave as they're forced to evacuate plush Westminster HQ after building declared unsafe https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    @MrHarryCole: Vote Leave source told Sun 'there is water pouring through the ceiling' and it could be days before they get back in https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    Evening, Scott n' Paste :)
  • Options
    VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,438
    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Disaster for Vote Leave as they're forced to evacuate plush Westminster HQ after building declared unsafe https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    @MrHarryCole: Vote Leave source told Sun 'there is water pouring through the ceiling' and it could be days before they get back in https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    Would not have happened if they only had used British plumbers!
  • Options
    kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    edited June 2016
    "When I warned them that Britain would fight on alone whatever they did, their generals told their Prime Minister and his divided Cabinet, 'In three weeks England will have her neck wrung like a chicken.' Some chicken! Some neck!" — Winston Churchill, Ottawa, Dec. 30, 1941

    With three weeks to go to the day until we vote lets hope for those of us that support Leave that Winston Churchills famous quote referencing the sneering comment made by "French Marshal Philippe Pétain, future leader of the collaborationist Vichy French government who was convinced that Germany would successfully invade Britain as it had done France" was a quote that we can again repeat, in which history will repeat itself, and England will be free at last from the clutches of the EU, with leaders like Hollande and the Spanish President, saying there will be consequences, Obama saying get to the back of the queue and Merkel sneering from the sidelines, lets hope the British people resolve to prove them wrong, and dare them to ring our neck - "some chicken, some neck!"
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,449
    kjohnw said:

    "When I warned them that Britain would fight on alone whatever they did, their generals told their Prime Minister and his divided Cabinet, 'In three weeks England will have her neck wrung like a chicken.' Some chicken! Some neck!" — Winston Churchill, Ottawa, Dec. 30, 1941

    With three weeks to go to the day until we vote lets hope for those of us that support Leave that Winston Churchills famous quote referencing the sneering comment made by "French Marshal Philippe Pétain, future leader of the collaborationist Vichy French government who was convinced that Germany would successfully invade Britain as it had done France" was a quote that we can again repeat, in which history will repeat itself, and England will be free at last from the clutches of the EU, with leaders like Hollande and the Spanish President, saying there will be consequences, Obama saying get to the back of the queue and Merkel sneering from the sidelines, lets hope the British people resolve to prove them wrong, and dare them to ring our neck - "some chicken, some neck!"

    Believe in BRITAIN!

    Be LEAVE!
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    Meanwhile, a Parkrun has been closed down after councillors wanted to charge organisers/participants:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-36437585

    Great work, council. Less healthiness, less exercise, no money gained for the council.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,660
    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Disaster for Vote Leave as they're forced to evacuate plush Westminster HQ after building declared unsafe https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    @MrHarryCole: Vote Leave source told Sun 'there is water pouring through the ceiling' and it could be days before they get back in https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    Conspiracy! Remainers sabotaging the plumbing!!
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,660
    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Disaster for Vote Leave as they're forced to evacuate plush Westminster HQ after building declared unsafe https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    @MrHarryCole: Vote Leave source told Sun 'there is water pouring through the ceiling' and it could be days before they get back in https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    Conspiracy! Remainers sabotaging the plumbing!!
  • Options
    John_N4John_N4 Posts: 553
    MTimT said:

    John_N4 said:

    I haven't got 39 minutes to hear people discuss whether or not Leave should focus on immigration. What's the gist of the argument that they shouldn't?

    I'm voting Remain but I agree with what Cameron said then. Leaving isn't going to be a disaster, if it happens. The UK economy won't vanish. We won't stop being a major power.

    A country can't stop being what it's not. The US, Russia, Israel and China are the major powers. Germany's powerful within the little continent, and I am expecting them to be a player in the coming war with Russia, which Russia will win. Britain's got a tall pointy place called the City, with lots of island safe havens, but that isn't going to last long.
    Aren't we a cheery one!

    While agreeing that the UK is not a major power (but it is still a regional one with an international voice), I don't see the logic of Israel ranking as a major power when the UK does not.
    Agreed the permanent seat on the UN Security Council is worth something. But it's that and the City. A regional power? Major influence in the Irish republic (before Google, nobody else was able to muscle in in a big way), some in Norway, hardly any in France, Belgium, the Netherlands or Denmark. Israel has major influence over US foreign policy and recently it was clear that they had no particular worries over Russia getting militarily involved in a civil war in the country next door. I think Britain would be worried if Russia got involved in a civil war in the Irish republic.
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    P

    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Disaster for Vote Leave as they're forced to evacuate plush Westminster HQ after building declared unsafe https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    @MrHarryCole: Vote Leave source told Sun 'there is water pouring through the ceiling' and it could be days before they get back in https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    Conspiracy! Remainers sabotaging the plumbing!!
    English or Polish plumber?!
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,019
    FPT

    FeersumEnjineeya said

    "The "ever closer union" "bollox" is exactly what we signed up for. It's there, right at the start of the Treaty of Rome setting the basis for the EEC that we subsequently joined. We (or, at least, anyone who could read) were promised ever closer union, and that's exactly what we've been getting. You can hardly blame the EU if we've got cold feet since then."



    No. We have continually been told by British politicians that Ever Closer Union was exactly what we were not signing up to. Now people like me have beensaying for the last 2 decades that that is what we are going to get but we have been continuously told by successive Prime Ministers that it is not.

    So if you are saying the British public should have realised that we were being continuously lied to about the direction of the EU and should have listened to those who were being called lunatics and extremists for pointing out what the treaty of Rome and every other Treaty since has made explicit then I would agree with you.

    Unfortunately the liars are still at it - on these very pages indeed - swearing blind that Ever Closer Union is not the aim and that we are just scaremongering. There has been no 'getting cold feet' just decades of propaganda designed to deny the basic facts about the EU. Thankfully it seems people might be waking up to that now.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,594
    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Disaster for Vote Leave as they're forced to evacuate plush Westminster HQ after building declared unsafe https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    @MrHarryCole: Vote Leave source told Sun 'there is water pouring through the ceiling' and it could be days before they get back in https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    I'm sure this is a simile for something. Can't think what though. *Innocent Face*
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Disaster for Vote Leave as they're forced to evacuate plush Westminster HQ after building declared unsafe https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    @MrHarryCole: Vote Leave source told Sun 'there is water pouring through the ceiling' and it could be days before they get back in https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    Conspiracy! Remainers sabotaging the plumbing!!
    Fear not. Their tinfoil hats are waterproof.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956

    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Disaster for Vote Leave as they're forced to evacuate plush Westminster HQ after building declared unsafe https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    @MrHarryCole: Vote Leave source told Sun 'there is water pouring through the ceiling' and it could be days before they get back in https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    I'm sure this is a simile for something. Can't think what though. *Innocent Face*
    Apres moi le deluge?
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,063

    Meanwhile, a Parkrun has been closed down after councillors wanted to charge organisers/participants:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-36437585

    Great work, council. Less healthiness, less exercise, no money gained for the council.

    A parish council doesn’t have massive funds.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,594
    Mortimer said:

    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Disaster for Vote Leave as they're forced to evacuate plush Westminster HQ after building declared unsafe https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    @MrHarryCole: Vote Leave source told Sun 'there is water pouring through the ceiling' and it could be days before they get back in https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    I'm sure this is a simile for something. Can't think what though. *Innocent Face*
    Apres moi le deluge?
    That was my initial thought but Morris Dancer doesn't like my use of the French language. The Philistine.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,063
    edited June 2016
    kjohnw said:

    "When I warned them that Britain would fight on alone whatever they did, their generals told their Prime Minister and his divided Cabinet, 'In three weeks England will have her neck wrung like a chicken.' Some chicken! Some neck!" — Winston Churchill, Ottawa, Dec. 30, 1941

    With three weeks to go to the day until we vote lets hope for those of us that support Leave that Winston Churchills famous quote referencing the sneering comment made by "French Marshal Philippe Pétain, future leader of the collaborationist Vichy French government who was convinced that Germany would successfully invade Britain as it had done France" was a quote that we can again repeat, in which history will repeat itself, and England will be free at last from the clutches of the EU, with leaders like Hollande and the Spanish President, saying there will be consequences, Obama saying get to the back of the queue and Merkel sneering from the sidelines, lets hope the British people resolve to prove them wrong, and dare them to ring our neck - "some chicken, some neck!"

    So long as Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland stay in........
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,449

    P

    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Disaster for Vote Leave as they're forced to evacuate plush Westminster HQ after building declared unsafe https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    @MrHarryCole: Vote Leave source told Sun 'there is water pouring through the ceiling' and it could be days before they get back in https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    Conspiracy! Remainers sabotaging the plumbing!!
    English or Polish plumber?!
    Given current relations between Brussels and Poland, more likely to be a home-grown Remainer!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36429325
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,449

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Disaster for Vote Leave as they're forced to evacuate plush Westminster HQ after building declared unsafe https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    @MrHarryCole: Vote Leave source told Sun 'there is water pouring through the ceiling' and it could be days before they get back in https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    I'm sure this is a simile for something. Can't think what though. *Innocent Face*
    Apres moi le deluge?
    That was my initial thought but Morris Dancer doesn't like my use of the French language. The Philistine.
    English is the best language in the world.

    Consider: all but one of this year's 26 Eurovision songs were sung either partly or wholly in English.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited June 2016
    John_N4 said:

    MTimT said:

    John_N4 said:

    I haven't got 39 minutes to hear people discuss whether or not Leave should focus on immigration. What's the gist of the argument that they shouldn't?

    I'm voting Remain but I agree with what Cameron said then. Leaving isn't going to be a disaster, if it happens. The UK economy won't vanish. We won't stop being a major power.

    A country can't stop being what it's not. The US, Russia, Israel and China are the major powers. Germany's powerful within the little continent, and I am expecting them to be a player in the coming war with Russia, which Russia will win. Britain's got a tall pointy place called the City, with lots of island safe havens, but that isn't going to last long.
    Aren't we a cheery one!

    While agreeing that the UK is not a major power (but it is still a regional one with an international voice), I don't see the logic of Israel ranking as a major power when the UK does not.
    Agreed the permanent seat on the UN Security Council is worth something. But it's that and the City. A regional power? Major influence in the Irish republic (before Google, nobody else was able to muscle in in a big way), some in Norway, hardly any in France, Belgium, the Netherlands or Denmark. Israel has major influence over US foreign policy and recently it was clear that they had no particular worries over Russia getting militarily involved in a civil war in the country next door. I think Britain would be worried if Russia got involved in a civil war in the Irish republic.
    I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

    Israel has no ability to project power beyond its neighbours, and it has no leverage over US policy other than when the US already agrees with it. Witness the Iranian nuclear deal, being told to (and obeying) sit out both Gulf Wars, etc...

    While Britain's power to influence the US is rapidly diminishing, and the 'special relationship' is now a misnomer, Its influence on US policy is still far greater than Israel's on a far broader slate of issues of more critical importance to the US globally.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,369
    Interesting graph of which sort of people support what:

    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/738355219562696706/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

    - notable that The Times readers lean towards Remain and Telegraph readers are only modestly Leavers, and for most of the other papers except the Guardian it's not as clear-cut as you might expect. Conversely there's only a relatively modest Remain lead in the AB category.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,594

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Disaster for Vote Leave as they're forced to evacuate plush Westminster HQ after building declared unsafe https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    @MrHarryCole: Vote Leave source told Sun 'there is water pouring through the ceiling' and it could be days before they get back in https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    I'm sure this is a simile for something. Can't think what though. *Innocent Face*
    Apres moi le deluge?
    That was my initial thought but Morris Dancer doesn't like my use of the French language. The Philistine.
    English is the best language in the world.

    Consider: all but one of this year's 26 Eurovision songs were sung either partly or wholly in English.
    I don't disagree but, Norman French is the language of Parliament and cursing and swearing French is awesome, it's like wiping your arse with silk.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    An excellent debate recently about referendum polling by three polling experts on BBC Parliament at http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07gg96k

    A focus on the proportion of graduates in telephone versus online surveys.

    Also the importance of age and wealth on turnout as well as terminal education age.

    Listening to the contortions they subject the data to and the assumptions they apply left me thinking that they haven't really got a clue and are essentially guessing.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Interesting graph of which sort of people support what:

    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/738355219562696706/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

    - notable that The Times readers lean towards Remain and Telegraph readers are only modestly Leavers, and for most of the other papers except the Guardian it's not as clear-cut as you might expect. Conversely there's only a relatively modest Remain lead in the AB category.

    Interesting that data is not collected on post-grads as a category. I believe a similar exercise in the US would do that as a matter of course.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,019

    Meanwhile, a Parkrun has been closed down after councillors wanted to charge organisers/participants:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-36437585

    Great work, council. Less healthiness, less exercise, no money gained for the council.

    You missed out the important bit: No cost to the Council.

    Considering the damage that was being done and the fact that the Council would have had to increase charges to the local residents because of huge numbers of people taking part I am inclined to say well done to the Council.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Mortimer said:

    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Disaster for Vote Leave as they're forced to evacuate plush Westminster HQ after building declared unsafe https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    @MrHarryCole: Vote Leave source told Sun 'there is water pouring through the ceiling' and it could be days before they get back in https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    I'm sure this is a simile for something. Can't think what though. *Innocent Face*
    Apres moi le deluge?
    On the subject of French floods, it does sound bad in Paris with the Louvre closing and moving artworks to higher areas:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36432429
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Interesting graph of which sort of people support what:

    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/738355219562696706/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

    - notable that The Times readers lean towards Remain and Telegraph readers are only modestly Leavers, and for most of the other papers except the Guardian it's not as clear-cut as you might expect. Conversely there's only a relatively modest Remain lead in the AB category.


    If I am reading the chart correctly, this would imply that around 4% of UKIP are for remain, or 8% are don't know/abstain.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,449

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Disaster for Vote Leave as they're forced to evacuate plush Westminster HQ after building declared unsafe https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    @MrHarryCole: Vote Leave source told Sun 'there is water pouring through the ceiling' and it could be days before they get back in https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    I'm sure this is a simile for something. Can't think what though. *Innocent Face*
    Apres moi le deluge?
    That was my initial thought but Morris Dancer doesn't like my use of the French language. The Philistine.
    English is the best language in the world.

    Consider: all but one of this year's 26 Eurovision songs were sung either partly or wholly in English.
    I don't disagree but, Norman French is the language of Parliament
    English is the language of Parliament. Since when did you hear Dave or Jezza call the other "très honorable"?
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    PBModeratorPBModerator Posts: 661
    Can people stop adding blockquotes to their posts. It is causing nesting issues. Thanks.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    MTimT said:

    Interesting graph of which sort of people support what:

    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/738355219562696706/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

    - notable that The Times readers lean towards Remain and Telegraph readers are only modestly Leavers, and for most of the other papers except the Guardian it's not as clear-cut as you might expect. Conversely there's only a relatively modest Remain lead in the AB category.


    If I am reading the chart correctly, this would imply that around 4% of UKIP are for remain, or 8% are don't know/abstain.
    In polls, about 5% of UKIP voters vote for Remain so it does fit.

    Rather headscratching to think of why they vote Kipper though!
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    Interesting graph of which sort of people support what:

    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/738355219562696706/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

    - notable that The Times readers lean towards Remain and Telegraph readers are only modestly Leavers, and for most of the other papers except the Guardian it's not as clear-cut as you might expect. Conversely there's only a relatively modest Remain lead in the AB category.


    If I am reading the chart correctly, this would imply that around 4% of UKIP are for remain, or 8% are don't know/abstain.
    In polls, about 5% of UKIP voters vote for Remain so it does fit.

    Rather headscratching to think of why they vote Kipper though!
    Indeed!
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    King Cole/Mr. Tyndall, interesting to hear the alternative viewpoint put forward.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956

    MTimT said:

    Interesting graph of which sort of people support what:

    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/738355219562696706/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

    - notable that The Times readers lean towards Remain and Telegraph readers are only modestly Leavers, and for most of the other papers except the Guardian it's not as clear-cut as you might expect. Conversely there's only a relatively modest Remain lead in the AB category.


    If I am reading the chart correctly, this would imply that around 4% of UKIP are for remain, or 8% are don't know/abstain.
    In polls, about 5% of UKIP voters vote for Remain so it does fit.

    Rather headscratching to think of why they vote Kipper though!
    2010 LDs?
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,505
    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Interesting graph of which sort of people support what:

    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/738355219562696706/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

    - notable that The Times readers lean towards Remain and Telegraph readers are only modestly Leavers, and for most of the other papers except the Guardian it's not as clear-cut as you might expect. Conversely there's only a relatively modest Remain lead in the AB category.


    If I am reading the chart correctly, this would imply that around 4% of UKIP are for remain, or 8% are don't know/abstain.
    In polls, about 5% of UKIP voters vote for Remain so it does fit.

    Rather headscratching to think of why they vote Kipper though!
    Indeed!
    I know at least one person who voted Kipper last election who is edging Remain. The Kipper vote was primarily a tactical anti-Labour vote rather than any great endorsement of the UKIP mien.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Can people stop adding blockquotes to their posts. It is causing nesting issues. Thanks.

    It works just fine on vanilla, possibly the main site needs a little gentle fettling ;)
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Disaster for Vote Leave as they're forced to evacuate plush Westminster HQ after building declared unsafe https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    @MrHarryCole: Vote Leave source told Sun 'there is water pouring through the ceiling' and it could be days before they get back in https://t.co/fQwcsgScit

    I'm sure this is a simile for something. Can't think what though. *Innocent Face*
    Apres moi le deluge?
    That was my initial thought but Morris Dancer doesn't like my use of the French language. The Philistine.
    English is the best language in the world.

    Consider: all but one of this year's 26 Eurovision songs were sung either partly or wholly in English.
    I don't disagree but, Norman French is the language of Parliament
    English is the language of Parliament. Since when did you hear Dave or Jezza call the other "très honorable"?
    "La Reyne le veult" :D
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Is the Arsene Wenger/Raymond Blanc et al remain letter a spoof?

    Wonder what Hercules Poirot thinks....

    .......TintIN.....
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    @NickPalmer

    Presumably there is considerable overlap in those various demographics.

    What about an AB Con voter in the South who reads the Daily Mail aged 65+,

    How do we sum these parts?
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,449

    @NickPalmer

    Presumably there is considerable overlap in those various demographics.

    What about an AB Con voter in the South who reads the Daily Mail aged 65+,

    How do we sum these parts?

    Answer: truck-load of salt analysis :)
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    That graph from NickPalmer is from data collected in February and March.....
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,393
    Well as a Leaver I have felt pretty uncomfortable about some of the company I have been keeping from time to time but I feel a lot better knowing that Guardian readers are very firmly on the other side!
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    The Remain coalition in the graph is to a substantial extent the same grouping that lost last May.
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    I'm surprised only 60% of Libdems are for Remain. I thought the EU was the source and summit of their religion.

    Meanwhile after being threatened by Frau Merkel I am beggining to think that the person behind the Halt ze German Advance poster on the M40 had a point.


    We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall vote leave on the beaches, we shall vote leave on the landing grounds, we shall vote leave in the fields and in the streets, we shall vote leave in the hills; we shall never surrender.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,900

    Interesting graph of which sort of people support what:

    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/738355219562696706/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

    - notable that The Times readers lean towards Remain and Telegraph readers are only modestly Leavers, and for most of the other papers except the Guardian it's not as clear-cut as you might expect. Conversely there's only a relatively modest Remain lead in the AB category.

    Wouldn't 'Highest qualification GCSE or lower' cover Sun Express and Mail readers?
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,505

    I'm surprised only 60% of Libdems are for Remain. I thought the EU was the source and summit of their religion.

    Meanwhile after being threatened by Frau Merkel I am beggining to think that the person behind the Halt ze German Advance poster on the M40 had a point.


    We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall vote leave on the beaches, we shall vote leave on the landing grounds, we shall vote leave in the fields and in the streets, we shall vote leave in the hills; we shall never surrender.

    Just to be pedantic, it's a 60% lead - which implies 80% remain, 20% leave. Your point still stands though.
    I remember a vox pop on Radio 5 about 15 years ago where a Lib Dem voter somewhere crossly announced she was voting Lib Dem because "they're the only ones who stand up to Europe". Sometimes you have to just concede that some voters aren't terribly well informed.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,449
    Roger said:

    Interesting graph of which sort of people support what:

    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/738355219562696706/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

    - notable that The Times readers lean towards Remain and Telegraph readers are only modestly Leavers, and for most of the other papers except the Guardian it's not as clear-cut as you might expect. Conversely there's only a relatively modest Remain lead in the AB category.

    Wouldn't 'Highest qualification GCSE or lower' cover Sun Express and Mail readers?
    Well, I've got a PhD and I'm voting LEAVE :p
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,895
    Afternoon all :)

    Cheer up, DavidL - you've got me as well as Casino R.

    I'm in direct opposition to the party I've supported as a member and activist for 35 years and perhaps my "yellow brick road" has come to a parting of the ways...

    By the way, even more worrying for me is CR's ideal vision of the future as posted earlier is exactly the same as mine so there you go !!

    The times, they are a changin, as Mr Zimmerman once informed us.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Cookie said:

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Interesting graph of which sort of people support what:

    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/738355219562696706/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

    - notable that The Times readers lean towards Remain and Telegraph readers are only modestly Leavers, and for most of the other papers except the Guardian it's not as clear-cut as you might expect. Conversely there's only a relatively modest Remain lead in the AB category.


    If I am reading the chart correctly, this would imply that around 4% of UKIP are for remain, or 8% are don't know/abstain.
    In polls, about 5% of UKIP voters vote for Remain so it does fit.

    Rather headscratching to think of why they vote Kipper though!
    Indeed!
    I know at least one person who voted Kipper last election who is edging Remain. The Kipper vote was primarily a tactical anti-Labour vote rather than any great endorsement of the UKIP mien.
    My Dad is a Kipper supporter who was Remain inclined, but seems to be trending Leave. He wants Cameron tried for treason then beheaded in the Tower.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''I remember a vox pop on Radio 5 about 15 years ago where a Lib Dem voter somewhere crossly announced she was voting Lib Dem because "they're the only ones who stand up to Europe". Sometimes you have to just concede that some voters aren't terribly well informed.''

    Perhaps that's why they lost so badly in 2015.

    Voters found out what the lib dems stood for!
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    DavidL said:

    Well as a Leaver I have felt pretty uncomfortable about some of the company I have been keeping from time to time but I feel a lot better knowing that Guardian readers are very firmly on the other side!

    It is a mercy for me too!
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,505
    chestnut said:

    The Remain coalition in the graph is to a substantial extent the same grouping that lost last May.

    Yes; and to some extent the AV referendum: a split between 'fashionable Britain' and 'unfashionable Britain'.

    On an only-slightly-related note, this split also correlates to the greatest Lab>Con and vice versa movements over the last 25 years or so.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,010
    Dr. Foxinsox, you should inform your father than Jack Straw, when Home Secretary, removed the death penalty from the final offences that otherwise would've incurred the punishment.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,895
    Unfortunately I also have Cookie and Bedfordshire Paul for company and if they cut out the snide remarks about the Lib Dems we'd all be much happier.

    I don't accuse the Conservatives on here of wanting to privatise their grandparents, sell babies and condemn the poor to a lifetime of indentured servitude.

    That just wouldn't be right...
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Roger said:

    Interesting graph of which sort of people support what:

    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/738355219562696706/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

    - notable that The Times readers lean towards Remain and Telegraph readers are only modestly Leavers, and for most of the other papers except the Guardian it's not as clear-cut as you might expect. Conversely there's only a relatively modest Remain lead in the AB category.

    Wouldn't 'Highest qualification GCSE or lower' cover Sun Express and Mail readers?
    Well, I've got a PhD and I'm voting LEAVE :p
    I've got a Masters. I was surprised the list didn't have a "postgraduate (or higher)" breakdown.
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,505
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    Cheer up, DavidL - you've got me as well as Casino R.

    I'm in direct opposition to the party I've supported as a member and activist for 35 years and perhaps my "yellow brick road" has come to a parting of the ways...

    By the way, even more worrying for me is CR's ideal vision of the future as posted earlier is exactly the same as mine so there you go !!

    The times, they are a changin, as Mr Zimmerman once informed us.

    Really Stodge? That's big news, I think - you've been consistently (though always measuredly) Lib Dem for all the time I've been here - at least ten years. And I was fairly sure you'd always been reasonably pro-Europe - I think one of my earliest encounters on here was a polite debate with you about the merits of the EU. (It may not have been you, this was some time ago now!) Have your views shifted, and if so, what has caused them to?
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,660
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    Cheer up, DavidL - you've got me as well as Casino R.

    I'm in direct opposition to the party I've supported as a member and activist for 35 years and perhaps my "yellow brick road" has come to a parting of the ways...

    By the way, even more worrying for me is CR's ideal vision of the future as posted earlier is exactly the same as mine so there you go !!

    The times, they are a changin, as Mr Zimmerman once informed us.

    Great minds think alike!!

    Seriously, thanks for the kind compliment :-)
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,393
    edited June 2016
    The EU quiz on this page is quite good fun. Through some stupidity and carelessness I only got 20 out of 28.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news
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    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    Roger said:

    Interesting graph of which sort of people support what:

    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/738355219562696706/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

    - notable that The Times readers lean towards Remain and Telegraph readers are only modestly Leavers, and for most of the other papers except the Guardian it's not as clear-cut as you might expect. Conversely there's only a relatively modest Remain lead in the AB category.

    Wouldn't 'Highest qualification GCSE or lower' cover Sun Express and Mail readers?
    The peasants are revolting, aren't they ?
This discussion has been closed.