That table explains why the Mail, Express and the Sun are taking the line that they do and why they are unlikely to be the difference. Their readers are overwhelmingly anti-EU, so they are following, not leading. And because they are largely preaching to the converted, they aren't changing many votes.
And the Guardian?
Edit, on reflection their main task is to provide lines to take for the BBC. But the same principle applies.
I just don't know how the BBC gets away with it, to be honest.
It's outrageous.
Tonight's BBC R4 6 oclock news had at 12 mins in the infamous Roger Harrabin with a full blooded endorsement of the EU as wonderful.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07cmjxq
I just listened. I'm astonished at how one-sided it was!
I think I'll complain.
Yes Harrabin acted as a spokesman for the EU. Remarkable and depressing how the BBC let this happen.
I'm still undecided about what turnout is going to be like.
ANECDOTE ALERT, but in my (reasonably politically-interested) circle, there's quite a lot of awareness now that the Referendum is happening, and a belief that it's a really important decision, but equally a lot of total bafflement about what a lot of the statistics and arguments mean, and how it's seemingly impossible to work out who to believe.
Turnout will be big-ish. I've backed the BF 65-70 band, which is GE territory.
The truth of the matter, I think, is that there is very little to choose between Remain and Leave in terms of actual impact within the timeframe we can foresee. If the EU goes wrong then leaving will have been the smart thing, but on the other hand if we as a nation repeat the last 100 years of 'wise decisions' then Brexit will be bad.
The principal worrying thing about this referendum is that not a single politician (so far as I can tell) has managed to avoid spouting nonsense. They're all trying to polarise the question whereas in fact this is a grey issue.
(My vote is currently undecided)
Well, excuse me, but I am undecided. Attracted by the simplicity that an independent nation represents, sovereignty granted by the people to a directly elected parliament; repelled by the anti-immigrant nastiness of many advocating Leave, however hard they try to hide that nastiness behind seemingly reasonable 'points systems' and ironic shouts of "racist" against themselves.
Perfectly reasonable to be undecided. Even I a confirmed leaver occasionally have pangs of uneasiness. The latest being from Laura K's excellent little prog the other night as to the problems Brexit might cause for Airbus UK.
Laura K is really good. The first political journalist I've really liked since John Cole.
My son in law works for Airbus and according to leave they are part of the elite and represent big business. That may be so but many many thousands of small business in the supply chain and the communities depend on their success and would be seriously effected by any rethink of the wing supply by Airbus in France who may want to relocate to Germany and Spain if the UK's exits
What do the contracts concerned have to say about rethinking the wing supply?
@DavidL I too felt as if I was a predator at Austin Reeds, picking over the remains.
I did wonder about the all or nothing attempt by the Administrators to sell it off was over ambitious.
I agree. The problem is though that old High Street leases are a liability not an asset with rents trending downwards quite strongly. Getting new leases after the liquidation is probably more attractive.
I have a horrible feeling this England line-up isn't going to be far from how Uncle Roy is going to squeeze Kane, Vardy, Alli and Rooney into the same team.
Thanks for posting that table. We really are a divided nation on this. One half of the population is not going to be happy.
The scariest numbers in that table are the age group figures. Regardless of which way the result goes; age is surely the worst possible fault line for our society to divide along.
Hello everyone. This is my first return visit to the site since I bowed out in March. I'm not sure if I'm staying - I'll gauge the atmosphere. Hope everyone is well.
Welcome back! The atmosphere is a bit febrile and peevish at times, but it's mostly blue on blue, as Tory Remainers discover how nasty the press is and Tory Leavers discover that Cameron doesn't play fair - it's fun to watch. We genuine Europhiles remain a small minority here, but are tolerated as endangered species, like aardvaarks.
Since your two favourite countries are Norway and Switzerland, both happily outside the EU, it's hard to credit the genuineness and sincerity of your professed Europhilia. I find you slightly less trustworthy than Cameron on this question.
Hmm. Dave saying that these are extraordinary times and that EU immigration will therefore tail off as the EU recovers.
Weak to middling at best.
As Southam Observer has said on a number of times he is reaping what he has sown.
Perhaps.
He is finally pivoting onto the broader point of what we lose in order to gain control over immigration. It won't of course work with those for whom immigration is the key issue. But for broader, undecideds (!), it is his only tactic.
I'm confused. Is he arguing it's that high and therefore the changes he got in the deal will have some affect on the numbers? If it's that high it suggests to me that the immigrants are actually here for the benefits which runs counter to the general perception.
Good grief, I'm convinced no-one in the Remain camp understands how tariffs work. Not even our own Prime Minister. The sooner he is replaced the better.
Welcome back! The atmosphere is a bit febrile and peevish at times, but it's mostly blue on blue, as Tory Remainers discover how nasty the press is and Tory Leavers discover that Cameron doesn't play fair - it's fun to watch. We genuine Europhiles remain a small minority here, but are tolerated as endangered species, like aardvaarks.
Oooh, I didn't know there were any aardvaarks posting here!
Seriously though, thanks Nick. I'm glad to see that you're still here fighting your corner.
I have to say that I'm actually starting to warm to Jeremy Corbyn. As someone who has never voted Labour that's quite an interesting development. I've been hugely impressed by his contribution to the EU debate today - he's making a lot of the arguments that I wish the Remain campaign as a whole would make more time for.
Meanwhile the antics of both sides of the Conservative civil war make me despair - and, remember, I've voted Conservative at every GE.
For the first time in my life I feel closer to Labour than to the Conservatives!!! :O Make of that what you will...
Jeremy is genuine and interested in discussing what needs to be done rather than personalities and scare stories. I'd like him for those qualities (in the same way that I like Letwin) even if I disliked his policies.
NP
You're not entirely on-record as having agreed with Corbyn historically are you? At least in some respects you seem to be a new convert to Corbynism. The question must be - what held you back in the past?
I'm confused. Is he arguing it's that high and therefore the changes he got in the deal will have some affect on the numbers? If it's that high it suggests to me that the immigrants are actually here for the benefits which runs counter to the general perception.
I think you're right - and it should be JUMPED ON by Leave.
I'm confused. Is he arguing it's that high and therefore the changes he got in the deal will have some affect on the numbers? If it's that high it suggests to me that the immigrants are actually here for the benefits which runs counter to the general perception.
I'm not actually watching the debate at the moment, to what does 40% refer?
Dave talking about his renegotiation for the first time since Feb.
Interesting.
the accepted wisdom was that the deal was hopeless. However, as, ahem I have been saying, what it did achieve in its way was important.
Of course the immigration clause was the weakest (along with competitiveness), but it did achieve a significant change in our relationship with the EU. IMO.
'Following a damaging report from the State Department’s inspector general, 65% of all voters consider it likely that Clinton broke the law by sending and receiving e-mails containing classified information through a private e-mail server while serving as secretary of State. Still, 71% of Democrats say Clinton should continue campaigning even if indicted and stay in the race until a court determines her guilt or innocence.' http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections/election_2016/white_house_watch
I'm confused. Is he arguing it's that high and therefore the changes he got in the deal will have some affect on the numbers? If it's that high it suggests to me that the immigrants are actually here for the benefits which runs counter to the general perception.
I'm not actually watching the debate at the moment, to what does 40% refer?
I think the PM claimed that 40% of immigrants claim tax credits and that his renegotiation means that they won't be able to get all of these for four years. But Islam suggested that it was 1 in 8.
DC will simply not win on sovereignty or immigration. The more angry he gets and keeps chuntering about them, the better for Leave.
It is the PM saying that the UK is better off if we stayed in. He will appeal to all of those (none on PB, I suspect) who are affected by a UK PM saying that.
I'm confused. Is he arguing it's that high and therefore the changes he got in the deal will have some affect on the numbers? If it's that high it suggests to me that the immigrants are actually here for the benefits which runs counter to the general perception.
I'm not actually watching the debate at the moment, to what does 40% refer?
DC was asked how many EU immigrants claim in work benefits. He seemed to respond 40%. Which sounds about right (well, it sounds effing awful - but chimes true).
Amazon today announced the location of the first ever studio recording of the new Jeremy Clarkson, Richard Hammond & James May Amazon Prime show The Grand Tour.
The show's first ever studio recording will be filmed in Johannesburg 17th July 2016 and Amazon is giving fans the opportunity to win one of three pairs of tickets, travel and accommodation to be part of the recording.
To enter for a chance to win, entrants should share, via Twitter, a photo or video of the most unusual place they've ever put up a tent, using the hashtag #TheGrandTourJoburg.
Dave talking about his renegotiation for the first time since Feb.
Interesting.
the accepted wisdom was that the deal was hopeless. However, as, ahem I have been saying, what it did achieve in its way was important.
Of course the immigration clause was the weakest (along with competitiveness), but it did achieve a significant change in our relationship with the EU. IMO.
I think it amounts to diddly squat, but the interesting thing here is Cameron is attempting to make a positive case to vote *for* Remain rather than just rely on Fear.
I'm confused. Is he arguing it's that high and therefore the changes he got in the deal will have some affect on the numbers? If it's that high it suggests to me that the immigrants are actually here for the benefits which runs counter to the general perception.
I'm not actually watching the debate at the moment, to what does 40% refer?
DC was asked how many EU immigrants claim in work benefits. He seemed to respond 40%. Which sounds about right (well, it sounds effing awful - but chimes true).
An argument against in work benefits more than an argument against immigration.
I'm confused. Is he arguing it's that high and therefore the changes he got in the deal will have some affect on the numbers? If it's that high it suggests to me that the immigrants are actually here for the benefits which runs counter to the general perception.
I'm not actually watching the debate at the moment, to what does 40% refer?
DC was asked how many EU immigrants claim in work benefits. He seemed to respond 40%. Which sounds about right (well, it sounds effing awful - but chimes true).
And we're through the looking glass. That it's that high is appalling, but he's turning it to his advantage to suggest that his renegotiation will have an affect on immigration.
Amazon today announced the location of the first ever studio recording of the new Jeremy Clarkson, Richard Hammond & James May Amazon Prime show The Grand Tour.
The show's first ever studio recording will be filmed in Johannesburg 17th July 2016 and Amazon is giving fans the opportunity to win one of three pairs of tickets, travel and accommodation to be part of the recording.
To enter for a chance to win, entrants should share, via Twitter, a photo or video of the most unusual place they've ever put up a tent, using the hashtag #TheGrandTourJoburg.
For full T&Cs go to amazon.co.uk/Joburg
They certainly making sure they spend ALL Amazon's money....
I'm confused. Is he arguing it's that high and therefore the changes he got in the deal will have some affect on the numbers? If it's that high it suggests to me that the immigrants are actually here for the benefits which runs counter to the general perception.
I'm not actually watching the debate at the moment, to what does 40% refer?
DC was asked how many EU immigrants claim in work benefits. He seemed to respond 40%. Which sounds about right (well, it sounds effing awful - but chimes true).
An argument against in work benefits more than an argument against immigration.
Audience looking bored already. Both PM and Faisal struggling. I'm not sure about Andrew Neil. I'm tired of his macho style of interviewing. I think the media/broadcasters need a new approach, it's getting very stale.
Thanks for posting that table. We really are a divided nation on this. One half of the population is not going to be happy.
The scariest numbers in that table are the age group figures. Regardless of which way the result goes; age is surely the worst possible fault line for our society to divide along.
Hello everyone. This is my first return visit to the site since I bowed out in March. I'm not sure if I'm staying - I'll gauge the atmosphere. Hope everyone is well.
Welcome back! The atmosphere is a bit febrile and peevish at times, but it's mostly blue on blue, as Tory Remainers discover how nasty the press is and Tory Leavers discover that Cameron doesn't play fair - it's fun to watch. We genuine Europhiles remain a small minority here, but are tolerated as endangered species, like aardvaarks.
When I was in Singapore in the 60s Lee Kwan Yew's version of democracy was that he allowed one or two members of the opposition to be elected. He discovered that Parliament was more effective when you had someone to shout at.
Good grief, I'm convinced no-one in the Remain camp understands how tariffs work. Not even our own Prime Minister. The sooner he is replaced the better.
Cameron trying steamroller Faisal - he seems rather argumentative and overtly emphatic, like he's trying to convince himself
I'm confused. Is he arguing it's that high and therefore the changes he got in the deal will have some affect on the numbers? If it's that high it suggests to me that the immigrants are actually here for the benefits which runs counter to the general perception.
I'm not actually watching the debate at the moment, to what does 40% refer?
DC was asked how many EU immigrants claim in work benefits. He seemed to respond 40%. Which sounds about right (well, it sounds effing awful - but chimes true).
An argument against in work benefits more than an argument against immigration.
Not a fan of helping the British poor, no?
Huge fan of helping the British poor. Employment is at a 45 year high, unemployment around a 30 year low.
If you are talking about British jobs for British people I'm not necessarily a fan.
Jeremy is genuine and interested in discussing what needs to be done rather than personalities and scare stories. I'd like him for those qualities (in the same way that I like Letwin) even if I disliked his policies.
I get a similar vibe from watching or listening to Jeremy Corbyn as I always got/get from watching or listening to John Major. That might be part of why he's impressing me too.
This is getting me angry. Countries that used to fight each other? No, one country has had a habit of marching into its neighbours and we had to come to the rescue.
I'm confused. Is he arguing it's that high and therefore the changes he got in the deal will have some affect on the numbers? If it's that high it suggests to me that the immigrants are actually here for the benefits which runs counter to the general perception.
I'm not actually watching the debate at the moment, to what does 40% refer?
DC was asked how many EU immigrants claim in work benefits. He seemed to respond 40%. Which sounds about right (well, it sounds effing awful - but chimes true).
An argument against in work benefits more than an argument against immigration.
Not a fan of helping the British poor, no?
Huge fan of helping the British poor. Employment is at a 45 year high, unemployment around a 30 year low.
If you are talking about British jobs for British people I'm not necessarily a fan.
Because you prefer British jobs for European people?
DC will simply not win on sovereignty or immigration. The more angry he gets and keeps chuntering about them, the better for Leave.
It is the PM saying that the UK is better off if we stayed in. He will appeal to all of those (none on PB, I suspect) who are affected by a UK PM saying that.
No disrespect towards anyone, but I have stopped believing anything any politically motivated person says.
The big area of danger for Dave is if members of the audience go after him for being too rich to understand the damage immigration is causing to the poorer in society.
I'm still undecided about what turnout is going to be like.
ANECDOTE ALERT, but in my (reasonably politically-interested) circle, there's quite a lot of awareness now that the Referendum is happening, and a belief that it's a really important decision, but equally a lot of total bafflement about what a lot of the statistics and arguments mean, and how it's seemingly impossible to work out who to believe.
Turnout will be big-ish. I've backed the BF 65-70 band, which is GE territory.
The truth of the matter, I think, is that there is very little to choose between Remain and Leave in terms of actual impact within the timeframe we can foresee. If the EU goes wrong then leaving will have been the smart thing, but on the other hand if we as a nation repeat the last 100 years of 'wise decisions' then Brexit will be bad.
The principal worrying thing about this referendum is that not a single politician (so far as I can tell) has managed to avoid spouting nonsense. They're all trying to polarise the question whereas in fact this is a grey issue.
(My vote is currently undecided)
Well, excuse me, but I am undecided. Attracted by the simplicity that an independent nation represents, sovereignty granted by the people to a directly elected parliament; repelled by the anti-immigrant nastiness of many advocating Leave, however hard they try to hide that nastiness behind seemingly reasonable 'points systems' and ironic shouts of "racist" against themselves.
Amazon today announced the location of the first ever studio recording of the new Jeremy Clarkson, Richard Hammond & James May Amazon Prime show The Grand Tour.
The show's first ever studio recording will be filmed in Johannesburg 17th July 2016 and Amazon is giving fans the opportunity to win one of three pairs of tickets, travel and accommodation to be part of the recording.
To enter for a chance to win, entrants should share, via Twitter, a photo or video of the most unusual place they've ever put up a tent, using the hashtag #TheGrandTourJoburg.
For full T&Cs go to amazon.co.uk/Joburg
They certainly making sure they spend ALL Amazon's money....
Amazon will be just fine - given the number of Prime subscriptions they've sold since the announcement, they have already made a boat load (boot load?) of money on the Grand Tour.
Amazon today announced the location of the first ever studio recording of the new Jeremy Clarkson, Richard Hammond & James May Amazon Prime show The Grand Tour.
The show's first ever studio recording will be filmed in Johannesburg 17th July 2016 and Amazon is giving fans the opportunity to win one of three pairs of tickets, travel and accommodation to be part of the recording.
To enter for a chance to win, entrants should share, via Twitter, a photo or video of the most unusual place they've ever put up a tent, using the hashtag #TheGrandTourJoburg.
For full T&Cs go to amazon.co.uk/Joburg
They certainly making sure they spend ALL Amazon's money....
Amazon will be just fine - given the number of Prime subscriptions they've sold since the announcement, they have already made a boat load (boot load?) of money on the Grand Tour.
I am sure they will...just pointing out that it seems like Jezza is making sure he is spending the maximum of his allowances on decent Rose and steak in as sunny climes as possible.
DC will simply not win on sovereignty or immigration. The more angry he gets and keeps chuntering about them, the better for Leave.
It is the PM saying that the UK is better off if we stayed in. He will appeal to all of those (none on PB, I suspect) who are affected by a UK PM saying that.
No disrespect towards anyone, but I have stopped believing anything any politically motivated person says.
Dave talking about his renegotiation for the first time since Feb.
Interesting.
the accepted wisdom was that the deal was hopeless. However, as, ahem I have been saying, what it did achieve in its way was important.
Of course the immigration clause was the weakest (along with competitiveness), but it did achieve a significant change in our relationship with the EU. IMO.
I think it amounts to diddly squat, but the interesting thing here is Cameron is attempting to make a positive case to vote *for* Remain rather than just rely on Fear.
What a pity he didn't think to try that before he threw his reputation down the drain.
The US House Speaker Paul Ryan says he will vote for the Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump in this year's election. Mr Ryan had previously criticised Mr Trump, but wrote in a newspaper column "we have more common ground than disagreement". He added he was "confident" that Mr Trump would be able to turn the Republican agenda into laws
Amazon today announced the location of the first ever studio recording of the new Jeremy Clarkson, Richard Hammond & James May Amazon Prime show The Grand Tour.
The show's first ever studio recording will be filmed in Johannesburg 17th July 2016 and Amazon is giving fans the opportunity to win one of three pairs of tickets, travel and accommodation to be part of the recording.
To enter for a chance to win, entrants should share, via Twitter, a photo or video of the most unusual place they've ever put up a tent, using the hashtag #TheGrandTourJoburg.
For full T&Cs go to amazon.co.uk/Joburg
They certainly making sure they spend ALL Amazon's money....
Amazon will be just fine - given the number of Prime subscriptions they've sold since the announcement, they have already made a boat load (boot load?) of money on the Grand Tour.
I am sure they will...just pointing out that it seems like Jezza is making sure he is spending the maximum of his allowances on decent Rose and steak in as sunny climes as possible.
I do hope so - with Andy Willman at the helm, and Amazon's money, the production values should be excellent, and the show will at least meet expectations. Given the reception for 'new' Top Gear, I'm sure they are stretching every sinew to please their many fans.
Sky totally losing the plot here. Cameron answering questions we can't hear. Kay allowing him to make mini speeches.
Only just realised this debate was on, if not even the politically interested are aware how many others will be watching it, especially on Sky News at the same time as an England international? Probably lucky for Cameron so far
In the way politicians have done Mumsnet, I think they should be "encouraged" to do PB...I am not sure they would get away with even 5% of the bollocks they get away with from the "expert" interviewers.
Comments
(Good evening, everyone)
I make good suggestions about immigration
You are being foolish.
He is finally pivoting onto the broader point of what we lose in order to gain control over immigration. It won't of course work with those for whom immigration is the key issue. But for broader, undecideds (!), it is his only tactic.
Neil, who I think is excellent, woudn't I suspect, have any more success.
Dave knows that immigration is the critical issue and I'm sure has wargamed the interviews and his responses, to death.
Interesting.
Sovereignty isn't sovereign.
That is going to wash isn't it....
You're not entirely on-record as having agreed with Corbyn historically are you? At least in some respects you seem to be a new convert to Corbynism. The question must be - what held you back in the past?
Of course the immigration clause was the weakest (along with competitiveness), but it did achieve a significant change in our relationship with the EU. IMO.
Clinton 39 Trump 38
'Following a damaging report from the State Department’s inspector general, 65% of all voters consider it likely that Clinton broke the law by sending and receiving e-mails containing classified information through a private e-mail server while serving as secretary of State. Still, 71% of Democrats say Clinton should continue campaigning even if indicted and stay in the race until a court determines her guilt or innocence.'
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections/election_2016/white_house_watch
The show's first ever studio recording will be filmed in Johannesburg 17th July 2016 and Amazon is giving fans the opportunity to win one of three pairs of tickets, travel and accommodation to be part of the recording.
To enter for a chance to win, entrants should share, via Twitter, a photo or video of the most unusual place they've ever put up a tent, using the hashtag #TheGrandTourJoburg.
For full T&Cs go to amazon.co.uk/Joburg
But I'm not sure that his 'trust us on the economy' works as well after 6 years and the deficit is still yawning.
I agree remainers are serving a similar function.
HAHHAAHHAH - big laugh from audience about WW3
If you are talking about British jobs for British people I'm not necessarily a fan.
That's like the 4th time he's accused Faisal of being "glib".
I'm going by gut instinct.
Prime is a good value.
Not 'forever' or 'for good'.
Interesting.
The US House Speaker Paul Ryan says he will vote for the Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump in this year's election.
Mr Ryan had previously criticised Mr Trump, but wrote in a newspaper column "we have more common ground than disagreement".
He added he was "confident" that Mr Trump would be able to turn the Republican agenda into laws
The 'lock' is full of holes.
Go on!
@DPJHodges: Here's the problem. We've now got audience members trying to audition for their @HuffPostUK piece.
Kindof.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2016/06/02/paul-ryan-endorses-donald-trump/