politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Is this Ed Miliband’s route back to the Labour leadership?

JackW said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

General Boles sums it up nicely

Who the fuck is Andrew Bridgen?

Ah diddums, did the nasty man hurt your feelings during the #EUref?

You're like the fucking Lib Dems, shocked to discover the PM fights to win and exactly how few people care about your obsession

It's been of the the funniest aspects of this campaign that PB Tories on the LEAVE side have recoiled in horror at the PM employing the same tactics to win this campaign that he did in the AV and SINDY referendums and 2015 General Election.

They cheered Cameron to the rafters then. No praise was too high, no amount of gratitude was too much and no accolade unworthy. Cameron had seen off voting reform, Salmond's independence threat, Ed and Nick in short measure and delivered a totally unexpected majority government. And more, he provided the EU referendum they craved.

But now it's Boo, Hiss. Dave the EU devil incarnate is the panto villain par excellence.

He's behind you .....

The Tory leavers expected that the PM would be polite and civil with members of his own party, not try and split it down the middle with wildly exaggerated hyperbole about war and famine. He'll quickly discover after the referendum just how small a majority he has in Parliament.

edmundintokyo said:

Do we believe this Sun story?
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/7181963/Brexiters-plan-shootout-with-David-Cameron-after-Referendum.html

I get the point of trying to preemptively head off a purge but if Remain wins, I'm having a hard time seeing the majority of the Tory parliamentary party voting to ditch the leader who just proved he has the voters on his side, especially since he'll be going soon anyhow. In which case they make their move, Cameron beats them and has a perfect excuse to take revenge on the rebels.

Prominent Conservatives may no longer be thinking rationally.

Alanbrooke said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Economists overwhelmingly reject Brexit in boost for Cameron

Poll shows 88% of 600 experts fear long-term fall in GDP if UK leaves single market, and 82% are alarmed over impact on household income

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/28/economists-reject-brexit-boost-cameron

How much richer do you think we would be if we had joined the Euro ?

We wouldn't.

alex. said:

edmundintokyo said:

Do we believe this Sun story?
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/7181963/Brexiters-plan-shootout-with-David-Cameron-after-Referendum.html

I get the point of trying to preemptively head off a purge but if Remain wins, I'm having a hard time seeing the majority of the Tory parliamentary party voting to ditch the leader who just proved he has the voters on his side, especially since he'll be going soon anyhow. In which case they make their move, Cameron beats them and has a perfect excuse to take revenge on the rebels.

I'm wondering how a new Tory leader and "Leave supporter" is going to address immigration at the next election, given that they have basically said that they can't control it. Perhaps they might pledge another referendum...

Perhaps one of the questions it might ask could be "should killing a leftie count as self-defence"? I'm sure most Peebies think the answer is "yes" - eh, Indigo. Seans Fear & Thomas and the rest of the rat-pack

TheScreamingEagles said:

Alanbrooke said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Economists overwhelmingly reject Brexit in boost for Cameron

Poll shows 88% of 600 experts fear long-term fall in GDP if UK leaves single market, and 82% are alarmed over impact on household income

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/28/economists-reject-brexit-boost-cameron

How much richer do you think we would be if we had joined the Euro ?

We wouldn't.

Obviously.

And yet the same bunch of experts were telling us we had to go in and civilisation would come to an end if we didn't.

In the end DYOR and vote accordingly

Sandpit said:

JackW said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

General Boles sums it up nicely

Who the fuck is Andrew Bridgen?

Ah diddums, did the nasty man hurt your feelings during the #EUref?

You're like the fucking Lib Dems, shocked to discover the PM fights to win and exactly how few people care about your obsession

It's been of the the funniest aspects of this campaign that PB Tories on the LEAVE side have recoiled in horror at the PM employing the same tactics to win this campaign that he did in the AV and SINDY referendums and 2015 General Election.

They cheered Cameron to the rafters then. No praise was too high, no amount of gratitude was too much and no accolade unworthy. Cameron had seen off voting reform, Salmond's independence threat, Ed and Nick in short measure and delivered a totally unexpected majority government. And more, he provided the EU referendum they craved.

But now it's Boo, Hiss. Dave the EU devil incarnate is the panto villain par excellence.

He's behind you .....

The Tory leavers expected that the PM would be polite and civil with members of his own party, not try and split it down the middle with wildly exaggerated hyperbole about war and famine. He'll quickly discover after the referendum just how small a majority he has in Parliament.

Which just goes to show how totally shambolic the Tory LEAVE hierarchy are. They had all the evidence before them. Baffling, incompetent and bizarre in equal measure. And these are the people who would negotiate for the UK post BREXIT ?

Hhhmmm.

TOPPING said:

Sandpit said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

weejonnie said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Charles said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Indigo said:

peter_from_putney said:

The Sunday Times:
Boris and Gove lash Cameron on immigration ......
Letter accuses PM of ‘corroding public trust’

Expect LEAVE to concentrate on immigration, immigration, immigration non-stop for the final three weeks of the referendum campaign.

Expect the metropolitan elite both in the media and here to go into a tizzy about it and run around calling everyone a RAAAACCCCCIIIST, the voters largely to disagree with them but keep their own counsel.

When the Left Liberal progressive minority go off on one about people complaining about immigration, the bulk of the country will roll their eyes and get on with life... until they vote.

What about the Right liberal minority?

I thought the whole idea of Vote Leave getting the nod was to attract more than just the Faragist anti immigration core vote 30%

Well I'm sure these past quotes won't be mentioned. No sir.

Gove 2013: "The PM has struck exactly the right note on migration"

Boris 2013: "I’m the only politician willing to say he’s pro-immigration"

Response: "Well if he had kept his promise to get immigration down...but it's not possible in the EU...Leave!"

Those quotes I believe were after some bad immigration figures were released

Does 'Bad Immigration figures' mean too many? Funny! I didn't think you were Pro Leave.

No. Bad as in relative to the PM's pledge

The PMs pledge is meaningless when there's 50% youth unemployment in parts of Europe and such widespread wage disparity that professionals in some EU countries can earn more working for minimum wage in the UK than as lawyers and accountants in their home countries. Also he can't stop arranged marriages from the sub continent thanks to European judges.

What is the unemployment rate in the UK I would have thought is more important.

5.1% according to the ONS.

PlatoSaid said:

Testing 123...

Morning!

Another new Ms Plato?

Alanbrooke said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Alanbrooke said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Economists overwhelmingly reject Brexit in boost for Cameron

Poll shows 88% of 600 experts fear long-term fall in GDP if UK leaves single market, and 82% are alarmed over impact on household income

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/28/economists-reject-brexit-boost-cameron

How much richer do you think we would be if we had joined the Euro ?

We wouldn't.

Obviously.

And yet the same bunch of experts were telling us we had to go in and civilisation would come to an end if we didn't.

In the end DYOR and vote accordingly

I'm voting Remain to ensure peace and prosperity continues in Ireland.

Sean_F said:

edmundintokyo said:

Do we believe this Sun story?
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/7181963/Brexiters-plan-shootout-with-David-Cameron-after-Referendum.html

I get the point of trying to preemptively head off a purge but if Remain wins, I'm having a hard time seeing the majority of the Tory parliamentary party voting to ditch the leader who just proved he has the voters on his side, especially since he'll be going soon anyhow. In which case they make their move, Cameron beats them and has a perfect excuse to take revenge on the rebels.

Prominent Conservatives may no longer be thinking rationally.

Thinking about this, if they were going to make their move, they'd be better off doing it *now*. I don't know what that would do to the referendum but they as things stand they seem to be losing so it wouldn't do them any harm to scramble the chess board.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Alanbrooke said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Alanbrooke said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Economists overwhelmingly reject Brexit in boost for Cameron

Poll shows 88% of 600 experts fear long-term fall in GDP if UK leaves single market, and 82% are alarmed over impact on household income

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/28/economists-reject-brexit-boost-cameron

How much richer do you think we would be if we had joined the Euro ?

We wouldn't.

Obviously.

And yet the same bunch of experts were telling us we had to go in and civilisation would come to an end if we didn't.

In the end DYOR and vote accordingly

I'm voting Remain to ensure peace and prosperity continues in Ireland.

I've been reading a very good biography of Eamon De Valera. There are some very good suggestions from him on how a small offshore island should manage the process of breaking away from a dominant neighbour...

surbiton said:

Ed Miliband was 10 or 15 Lib Dem seats away from being Prime Minister.

Which would have put the LibDems in the 2015 parliament at between minus 2 and minus 7 .... Even "I Agree With Nick" couldn't quite manage that ....

Sandpit said:

TOPPING said:

Sandpit said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

weejonnie said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Charles said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Indigo said:

peter_from_putney said:

The Sunday Times:
Boris and Gove lash Cameron on immigration ......
Letter accuses PM of ‘corroding public trust’

Expect LEAVE to concentrate on immigration, immigration, immigration non-stop for the final three weeks of the referendum campaign.

Expect the metropolitan elite both in the media and here to go into a tizzy about it and run around calling everyone a RAAAACCCCCIIIST, the voters largely to disagree with them but keep their own counsel.

When the Left Liberal progressive minority go off on one about people complaining about immigration, the bulk of the country will roll their eyes and get on with life... until they vote.

What about the Right liberal minority?

I thought the whole idea of Vote Leave getting the nod was to attract more than just the Faragist anti immigration core vote 30%

Well I'm sure these past quotes won't be mentioned. No sir.

Gove 2013: "The PM has struck exactly the right note on migration"

Boris 2013: "I’m the only politician willing to say he’s pro-immigration"

Response: "Well if he had kept his promise to get immigration down...but it's not possible in the EU...Leave!"

Those quotes I believe were after some bad immigration figures were released

Does 'Bad Immigration figures' mean too many? Funny! I didn't think you were Pro Leave.

No. Bad as in relative to the PM's pledge

The PMs pledge is meaningless when there's 50% youth unemployment in parts of Europe and such widespread wage disparity that professionals in some EU countries can earn more working for minimum wage in the UK than as lawyers and accountants in their home countries. Also he can't stop arranged marriages from the sub continent thanks to European judges.

What is the unemployment rate in the UK I would have thought is more important.

5.1% according to the ONS.

So perfectly OK perhaps on the low side.

Despite the invading hordes.

Not that anyone is likely to look at the facts.

surbiton said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Economists overwhelmingly reject Brexit in boost for Cameron

Poll shows 88% of 600 experts fear long-term fall in GDP if UK leaves single market, and 82% are alarmed over impact on household income

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/28/economists-reject-brexit-boost-cameron

The Brexit case is not about Economics - whatever they might say. It is about the irrational fear of the foreigner. Therefore, it is about emotion.

The Tory party has always played this game. Thatcher used the word "swamped", Cameron more subtly said "tens of thousands, not hundreds of thousands".

The subliminal message was clear: We will keep Johnny Foreigner out better than Labour can.

When Johnson said that keeping that promise and being in the EU is not compatible, it is clear someone was lying. Boris himself was a Tory candidate. So he lied too !

Important constitutional decisions should never be about mere economics.

PlatoSaid said:

CD13 said:

One thing this referendum has shown is that altruism isn't dead.

We have Ukip campaigning for Leave, an action that will render them all redundant.

And we also have the majority of MPs at Westminster and the devolved parliaments campaigning for Remain. If successful, an action which will render them all redundant, although on a longer timescale.

Three cheers for them all.

Dan Hannan has a great poster of himself as Kitchener asking us to sack him

https://twitter.com/DanHannanMEP/status/736204533815205888/photo/1

As noted previously, Dave and George are reaping what they sowed on immigration. They were happy to stoke fears and tell fibs about the damage EU immigrants are doing to the UK and now they will lose their referendum as a result. If the PM, the Chancellor and various others spend years telling you how appalling it is so many people are arriving from across the Channel you are going to believe them, whatever the statistics say. And you are not going to notice that the entire fiscal and economic strategy the government is pursuing - and which the Conservative party in parliament and in the country has given its wholehearted support to (with some exceptions) - is based on there being high levels of immigration.

The Tory ministerial Leavers, of course, are extraordinary hypocrites; but in this campaign what does that matter? They have the winning hand.

"tallest dwarf"
Lovely. Everyone's rubbish in politics except those nice Messrs Cameron and Osborne, who are golden gods.

JackW said:

Charles said:

I've been reading a very good biography of Eamon De Valera. There are some very good suggestions from him on how a small offshore island should manage the process of breaking away from a dominant neighbour...

Become a republic, Catholic theocracy and neutral country ?

And break-up.

JackW said:

Charles said:

I've been reading a very good biography of Eamon De Valera. There are some very good suggestions from him on how a small offshore island should manage the process of breaking away from a dominant neighbour...

Become a republic, Catholic theocracy and neutral country ?

Hate to break it to you, but Jacobitism is long gone...

JackW said:

Sandpit said:

JackW said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

General Boles sums it up nicely

Who the fuck is Andrew Bridgen?

Ah diddums, did the nasty man hurt your feelings during the #EUref?

You're like the fucking Lib Dems, shocked to discover the PM fights to win and exactly how few people care about your obsession

It's been of the the funniest aspects of this campaign that PB Tories on the LEAVE side have recoiled in horror at the PM employing the same tactics to win this campaign that he did in the AV and SINDY referendums and 2015 General Election.

They cheered Cameron to the rafters then. No praise was too high, no amount of gratitude was too much and no accolade unworthy. Cameron had seen off voting reform, Salmond's independence threat, Ed and Nick in short measure and delivered a totally unexpected majority government. And more, he provided the EU referendum they craved.

But now it's Boo, Hiss. Dave the EU devil incarnate is the panto villain par excellence.

He's behind you .....

The Tory leavers expected that the PM would be polite and civil with members of his own party, not try and split it down the middle with wildly exaggerated hyperbole about war and famine. He'll quickly discover after the referendum just how small a majority he has in Parliament.

Which just goes to show how totally shambolic the Tory LEAVE hierarchy are. They had all the evidence before them. Baffling, incompetent and bizarre in equal measure. And these are the people who would negotiate for the UK post BREXIT ?

Hhhmmm.

The Tories are a complete joke. Incompetent, hypocritical and completely divided. Luckily for them, they are up against Mr Corbyn, so from an electoral standpoint it does not matter. But for the country it is a disaster.

Sean_F said:

While I take your point about the Leave hierarchy, I'm not at all convinced that the Remain hierarchy are any better at negotiating on behalf of the UK.

Quite so Sean.

We really should still have had those hard headed LibDem euro-sceptics in the government to embolden the negotiating team .... Errrr ....

surbiton said:

LewisDuckworth said:

Anecdote alert. My niece's husband supervises 30-odd welders at a power station on the west coast. He assures me that he will be voting BREXIT and, furthermore, ALL his welders seem similarly inclined.

So Brexit is getting excited with 30 votes.

I'll take the good sense of thirty welders over the opinions of your 500 odd Remain economists any day.

RobD said:

Hate to break it to you, but Jacobitism is long gone...

But not forgotten ....

Especially on PB ....

Just watched Have I Got News For You. Not good for either side in the referendum when they are being completely ridiculed rather than the usual light ribbing.

Interesting to see Liam Fox speaking on behalf of the Leave campaign on Marr and managing to be authoritative, moderate in tone and quietly reassuring. Also supports Cameron remaining in office even after a Leave win and implicitly critical of Priti's comments on the PM and immigration.

PlatoSaid said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

REMAIN is relying for its biggest vote from one group, Labour voters. Its campaign has been fronted by Cameron and Osborne, two people that are amongst the worst people to attract Labour voters.
If we view this from the perspective of Labour working class voters, they are being asked to also vote for:-
1. More immigration
2. Keep Cameron and Osborne in office
It is just not a good political situation for REMAIN.

Blair is advocating for Remain in the Sunday Times...

Tell me it's open to comments.

Remain resort to the nuclear option. Blairrrrrrrrrrr!

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

JackW said:

Charles said:

I've been reading a very good biography of Eamon De Valera. There are some very good suggestions from him on how a small offshore island should manage the process of breaking away from a dominant neighbour...

Become a republic, Catholic theocracy and neutral country ?

And break-up.

De Valera didn't even make the Republic a Republic it was Fine Gael.

"The ideal Ireland that we would have, the Ireland that we dreamed of, would be the home of a people who valued material wealth only as a basis for right living, of a people who, satisfied with frugal comfort, devoted their leisure to the things of the spirit – a land whose countryside would be bright with cosy homesteads, whose fields and villages would be joyous with the sounds of industry, with the romping of sturdy children, the contest of athletic youths and the laughter of happy maidens, whose firesides would be forums for the wisdom of serene old age. The home, in short, of a people living the life that God desires that men should live ..."

Hmmm

GeoffM said:

SouthamObserver said:

GeoffM said:

PlatoSaid said:

Blair is advocating for Remain in the Sunday Times...

Of course. Leave would cost his wife's legal firm a fortune in lost fees,

You are joking, aren't you? Brexit will be a goldmine for lawyers. So much to unravel, dispute and redraft. They will love it.

If you knew what area of law they 'specialise' in you'd know why you are wrong.

"Cherie Booth is a leading barrister specialising in arbitration, mediation, public law, human rights, employment law and European Community law."

http://cherieblair.org/qc/

She will rake it in, I'm afraid.

SouthamObserver said:

Yes, the Labour membership will ensure that Labour stays out of office for many more years. By and large, they are comfortably off and not really negatively affected by government policy. As Nick Palmer has explained on here before, Corbyn is an interesting intellectual experiment; and never mind those that Labour is supposed to care about.

I think we're both trying to be civil to each other, but you're straining my patience when you attribute imaginary quotes to me. I've spent over 40 years working for the Labour Party and the people we both care about, including 13 years working 80 hours a week or so in Parliament. You, so far as I know, contribute with the occasional vote and comment on websites. I should be grateful if you would not attribute to me attitudes that I don't hold.

My view, to recap, is that Labour needs to stand for coherent change in a left-wing direction. That's not an intellectual experiment, it's a necessity to make the effort worthwhile. Having established that, we need to try to win. It's difficult for many reasons, but it's easier having a leadership who stand for something refreshing, as I and most members think is currently the case, than it was last year when I was hard-pressed to say what we actually stood for.

You feel that this puts the cart before the horse. First one must try to win, and then see what reforms can be accommodated in that precondition. It's a perfectly reasonable position that we disagree about. Shall we leave it at that?

JackW said:

SouthamObserver said:

The Tories are a complete joke. Incompetent, hypocritical and completely divided. Luckily for them, they are up against Mr Corbyn, so from an electoral standpoint it does not matter. But for the country it is a disaster.

Your party is a complete joke, Mr W. You are just going to have to accept that and thank the Lord for Jeremy Corbyn and his useful idiots.

You seem to be labouring under the total misconception that I am a member of the Conservative party. I am not and never have been.

Cameron is indeed a lucky general but he is also a ruthless and clever general. Three virtues that any army would be more happy for their commander to enjoy.

You are a supporter. Cameron has been lucky. But in the end his triangulation is going to cost him. He is being hoisted high on his own petard by colleagues who will soon be hoisted high themselves.

PlatoSaid said:

It's even worse than I thought.

STimes reporting the Border Agency has only 3 boats to patrol over 7k miles of our coastline. I've seen three stories just this week re traffickers bringing in illegal migrants/guns using dingies/cruisers into small marinas.

The cuts that Priti and co supported in action.

I believe today’s personal attack on David Cameron by Boris and Gove over immigration and the threat of a vote of no confidence against him by Andrew Bridgen post the referendum is a serious tactical mistake by leave. By turning the debate into immigration it is very likely to be seen as a tacit admission that leave have lost the economic argument (which they have) and that they are playing on people’s fears about ‘foreigners’. It was interesting to see today’s Mail on Sunday being very much pro remain, in stark contrast to the Daily Mail, and also Jacob Rees Mogg stating in an article that once the vote is past the party must come together and accept the people’s verdict. Liam Fox on Marr this morning was very measured and put his case for Brexit with respect and was very competent. He did not agree that this was personal with David Cameron and refuted Andrew Bridgen’s threat of a no confidence vote. His tone gave the impression that he is very likely to be re-instated to a cabinet post the 23rd. It has also been reported that 90% of conservative MP’s just want the vote to be put behind them and for the party to return to governing, this is particularly true of the 2015 intake. There are a number of very angry Brexit conservatives but if they are seriously threatening the government post the vote I would suggest they will be overwhelmed, not only by their own colleagues, but by the Country at large who will be crying out for all this to come to an end. The other factor in the case of a remain vote will be the instant positive effect on markets and the announcement by many companies of billions of pounds of inward investment to the UK that has been delayed due to pre vote uncertainty

SouthamObserver said:

You are a supporter. Cameron has been lucky. But in the end his triangulation is going to cost him. He is being hoisted high on his own petard by colleagues who will soon be hoisted high themselves.

I was a critical supporter of the Coalition and would have preferred a continuance. I support Cameron as the best available option and have said previously I'm prepared to give the government a fair wind.

That's about as fulsome as I'm prepared to go.

LewisDuckworth said:

Anecdote alert. My niece's husband supervises 30-odd welders at a power station on the west coast. He assures me that he will be voting BREXIT and, furthermore, ALL his welders seem similarly inclined.

What about their dear, old mums? Are they being kept locked in their attics on referendum day?

NickPalmer said:

SouthamObserver said:

Yes, the Labour membership will ensure that Labour stays out of office for many more years. about.

I think we're both trying to be civil to each other, but you're straining my patience when you attribute imaginary quotes to me. I've spent over 40 years working for the Labour Party and the people we both care about, including 13 years working 80 hours a week or so in Parliament. You, so far as I know, contribute with the occasional vote and comment on websites. I should be grateful if you would not attribute to me attitudes that I don't hold.

My view, to recap, is that Labour needs to stand for coherent change in a left-wing direction. That's not an intellectual experiment, it's a necessity to make the effort worthwhile. Having established that, we need to try to win. It's difficult for many reasons, but it's easier having a leadership who stand for something refreshing, as I and most members think is currently the case, than it was last year when I was hard-pressed to say what we actually stood for.

You feel that this puts the cart before the horse. First one must try to win, and then see what reforms can be accommodated in that precondition. It's a perfectly reasonable position that we disagree about. Shall we leave it at that?

I am sorry Nick, you did say it was an intellectual exercise. I wish I had kept the quote now. It must have been about week or so ago.

I greatly admire the fact that you have dedicated so much time to public service. While you were doing that I was spending 80 hours and more a week building companies. So I think we have both done our bit.

However, I find it absolutely extraordinary that you would now knowingly gift a divided and useless Conservative party the 2020 election and quite possibly the one after that too. I could accommodate a left-leaning Labour party if it showed any signs of competence and was led by someone who had not surrounded himself with people who at the last election campaigned against the Labour party.

That you are not furious that Corbyn has proved so ineffectual at a time when the country has been crying out for a decent opposition, that you and the membership are not making more demands of him demonstrates that you and the wider membership have reached a point where victory is no longer important. Indeed, you give every sign of actually being happy with Labour's trajectory. And that's before we consider the fact that you seemingly have no problems with a leadership that has spent decades sharing platforms with anti-Semites and anti-democratic, anti-western organisations and individuals.

You should not be angry with me Nick. You should be angry at a party leadership that is leading Labour to oblivion at a time when an alternative to this discredited government has never been more necessary.

Morning all,

EICIPM returns to PB. Huzzah!

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

JackW said:

Charles said:

I've been reading a very good biography of Eamon De Valera. There are some very good suggestions from him on how a small offshore island should manage the process of breaking away from a dominant neighbour...

Become a republic, Catholic theocracy and neutral country ?

And break-up.

De Valera didn't even make the Republic a Republic it was Fine Gael.

"The ideal Ireland that we would have, the Ireland that we dreamed of, would be the home of a people who valued material wealth only as a basis for right living, of a people who, satisfied with frugal comfort, devoted their leisure to the things of the spirit – a land whose countryside would be bright with cosy homesteads, whose fields and villages would be joyous with the sounds of industry, with the romping of sturdy children, the contest of athletic youths and the laughter of happy maidens, whose firesides would be forums for the wisdom of serene old age. The home, in short, of a people living the life that God desires that men should live ..."

Hmmm

That's last years DUP manifesto.

In the Irish rising of 1798 the Nonconformists were, at least at the start, on the same side as the Catholics. Both were subject to discrimination due to not being Church of Ireland.

The leader of the rebellion was a protestant called Theobald Wolfe Tone.

The government played divide and rule and sucessfully used sectarianism to cause a catholic protestant falling out helping them to defeat the rebellion (it probably would have failed anyway. Brigadier-General C.E. Knox wrote to General Lake (who was responsible for Ulster): "I have arranged... to increase the animosity between the Orangemen and the United Irishmen, or liberty men as they call themselves. Upon that animosity depends the safety of the centre counties of the North." (source Lecky, William Edward Hartpole. A History of England in the Eighteenth Century, Volume VII. D. Appleton And Company, New York, 1890, p. 312.)

The rise of the mainly nonconformist DUP and its eclipsing of the mainly church of Ireland UUP has to be seen in this light and in this light it can be seen how the likes of Ian Paisley were able to work with the likes of Martin McGuinness. DUP protestant nationlalism and Irish nationalism are two sides of the same coin.

After the rebellion pressure & bribes were put on the MPs and lords to vote themselves out of existence in the union of 1801- now seen as a disasrtrous error.

RobD said:

Hate to break it to you, but Jacobitism is long gone...

Please do not encourage the flatuant-fool: I have to pass through Harpenden soon and forgot to step-off a Mile-End for a - Silverman's supplied - gas-mask. *

* No, not the 1916 Verdun model....