Anecdote alert. My niece's husband supervises 30-odd welders at a power station on the west coast. He assures me that he will be voting BREXIT and, furthermore, ALL his welders seem similarly inclined.
What about their dear, old mums? Are they being kept locked in their attics on referendum day?
If you believe LD's nephew-in-law. It may be so: it may also be three or four loud-mouthed bullies and the others keeping their counsel in the interests of a tolerable working environment.
The entire public sector will be like that.
Full of people who see the impacts but who exist in an environment where it is completely taboo to say anything.
Rotherham on steroids.
However there will not be many places where the remainers are keeping quiet as the great, good and policically correct are on Remains side and that the great good and political correct think Brexiters are racist untermenschen. Brexit is the dissident option that must be whispered in low tones.
Peter Hitchens reports today on what seems to me a miscarriage of justice. However at the knub of this is the fact that someone has been sent to prison for 2 1/2 years for not reporting their spouse to the authorities. Just think about that for a minute. If we have gone this far down the road to fascism, it is hardly surprising that people who oppose the governments view are reluctant to tell pollsters or even other people unless they trust them their real views.
The Sunday Times: Boris and Gove lash Cameron on immigration ...... Letter accuses PM of ‘corroding public trust’
Expect LEAVE to concentrate on immigration, immigration, immigration non-stop for the final three weeks of the referendum campaign.
Expect the metropolitan elite both in the media and here to go into a tizzy about it and run around calling everyone a RAAAACCCCCIIIST, the voters largely to disagree with them but keep their own counsel.
When the Left Liberal progressive minority go off on one about people complaining about immigration, the bulk of the country will roll their eyes and get on with life... until they vote.
What about the Right liberal minority?
I thought the whole idea of Vote Leave getting the nod was to attract more than just the Faragist anti immigration core vote 30%
Well I'm sure these past quotes won't be mentioned. No sir.
Gove 2013: "The PM has struck exactly the right note on migration"
Boris 2013: "I’m the only politician willing to say he’s pro-immigration"
Response: "Well if he had kept his promise to get immigration down...but it's not possible in the EU...Leave!"
Those quotes I believe were after some bad immigration figures were released
Does 'Bad Immigration figures' mean too many? Funny! I didn't think you were Pro Leave.
No. Bad as in relative to the PM's pledge
The PMs pledge is meaningless when there's 50% youth unemployment in parts of Europe and such widespread wage disparity that professionals in some EU countries can earn more working for minimum wage in the UK than as lawyers and accountants in their home countries. Also he can't stop arranged marriages from the sub continent thanks to European judges.
What is the unemployment rate in the UK I would have thought is more important.
I've been reading a very good biography of Eamon De Valera. There are some very good suggestions from him on how a small offshore island should manage the process of breaking away from a dominant neighbour...
Become a republic, Catholic theocracy and neutral country ?
And break-up.
De Valera didn't even make the Republic a Republic it was Fine Gael.
"The ideal Irelandes that men should live ..."
Hmmm
That's last years DUP manifesto.
In the Irish rising of 1798 the Nonconformists were, at least at the start, on the same side as the Catholics. Both were subject to discrimination due to not being Church of Ireland.
The leader of the rebellion was a protestant called Theobald Wolfe Tone.
The government played divide and rule and sucessfully used sectarianism to cause a catholic protestant falling out helping them to defeat the rebellion (it probably would have failed anyway. Brigadier-General C.E. Knox wrote to General Lake (who was responsible for Ulster): "I have arranged... to increase the animosity between the Orangemen and the United Irishmen, or liberty men as they call themselves. Upon that animosity depends the safety of the centre counties of the North." (source Lecky, William Edward Hartpole. A History of England in the Eighteenth Century, Volume VII. D. Appleton And Company, New York, 1890, p. 312.)
The rise of the mainly nonconformist DUP and its eclipsing of the mainly church of Ireland UUP has to be seen in this light and in this light it can be seen how the likes of Ian Paisley were able to work with the likes of Martin McGuinness. DUP protestant nationlalism and Irish nationalism are two sides of the same coin.
After the rebellion pressure & bribes were put on the MPs and lords to vote themselves out of existence in the union of 1801- now seen as a disasrtrous error.
LOL
The UUP has been stuffed full of Presbyterians since day one. James Craig NIs first PM was one. The UUP/DUP split is more class based .
As for the Martin McGuinness cooperation, I should read up on how the DUP first approached it. They were simply playing Boris.
How much richer do you think we would be if we had joined the Euro ?
We wouldn't.
Obviously.
And yet the same bunch of experts were telling us we had to go in and civilisation would come to an end if we didn't.
In the end DYOR and vote accordingly
I'm voting Remain to ensure peace and prosperity continues in Ireland.
I've been reading a very good biography of Eamon De Valera. There are some very good suggestions from him on how a small offshore island should manage the process of breaking away from a dominant neighbour...
For most of his life DeValera screwed Ireland. The place only took off when he was dead.
The Tories are a complete joke. Incompetent, hypocritical and completely divided. Luckily for them, they are up against Mr Corbyn, so from an electoral standpoint it does not matter. But for the country it is a disaster.
Your party is a complete joke, Mr W. You are just going to have to accept that and thank the Lord for Jeremy Corbyn and his useful idiots.
You seem to be labouring under the total misconception that I am a member of the Conservative party. I am not and never have been.
Cameron is indeed a lucky general but he is also a ruthless and clever general. Three virtues that any army would be more happy for their commander to enjoy.
You are a supporter. Cameron has been lucky. But in the end his triangulation is going to cost him. He is being hoisted high on his own petard by colleagues who will soon be hoisted high themselves.
You can only be hoisted 'by' a petard not 'on' it.
I've been reading a very good biography of Eamon De Valera. There are some very good suggestions from him on how a small offshore island should manage the process of breaking away from a dominant neighbour...
Become a republic, Catholic theocracy and neutral country ?
And break-up.
De Valera didn't even make the Republic a Republic it was Fine Gael.
And it was the treacherous f***er Craig who was responsible for the breakup and 80 years of pain
@DPJHodges: Out wanted tomorrow's headlines to be dominated by immigration. Thanks to Bridgen, Dorries et al, they're going to all be Tory civil war.
@Conorpope: Nadine Dorries, who slated Cameron (Eton, Oxford) & Osborne (St Paul's, Oxford) for being "posh boys", backs Boris (Eton, Oxford) for leader
I've been reading a very good biography of Eamon De Valera. There are some very good suggestions from him on how a small offshore island should manage the process of breaking away from a dominant neighbour...
Become a republic, Catholic theocracy and neutral country ?
And break-up.
De Valera didn't even make the Republic a Republic it was Fine Gael.
And it was the treacherous f***er Craig who was responsible for the breakup and 80 years of pain
The Tories are a complete joke. Incompetent, hypocritical and completely divided. Luckily for them, they are up against Mr Corbyn, so from an electoral standpoint it does not matter. But for the country it is a disaster.
Your party is a complete joke, Mr W. You are just going to have to accept that and thank the Lord for Jeremy Corbyn and his useful idiots.
You seem to be labouring under the total misconception that I am a member of the Conservative party. I am not and never have been.
Cameron is indeed a lucky general but he is also a ruthless and clever general. Three virtues that any army would be more happy for their commander to enjoy.
You are a supporter. Cameron has been lucky. But in the end his triangulation is going to cost him. He is being hoisted high on his own petard by colleagues who will soon be hoisted high themselves.
You can only be hoisted 'by' a petard not 'on' it.
Marvelous post, really made me laugh. PB at it its best. Thank you
@JananGanesh: Imagine getting to age 51 and still being Andrew Bridgen.
Andrew Bridgen together with Stewart Jackass (late of this parish) are a brace of Conservative MP's for whom the public should enjoy an open season - 1st January - 31st December.
Although to be fair the latter could hardly be termed sport as he is such a total dullard he makes makes Bridgen appear Churchillian in political acumen.
General Boles sums it up nicely
Who the fuck is Andrew Bridgen?
Ah diddums, did the nasty man hurt your feelings during the #EUref?
You're like the fucking Lib Dems, shocked to discover the PM fights to win and exactly how few people care about your obsession
The PB REMAINIACS seem a little flustered this morning.
I believe today’s personal attack on David Cameron by Boris and Gove over immigration and the threat of a vote of no confidence against him by Andrew Bridgen post the referendum is a serious tactical mistake by leave. By turning the debate into large who will be crying out for all this to come to an end. The other factor in the case of a remain vote will be the instant positive effect on markets and the announcement by many companies of billions of pounds of inward investment to the UK that has been delayed due to pre vote uncertainty
Doubt Priti will be back after the reshuffle if Remain win, after today's comments about rich and immigration.
However, as I believe Leave are going to win, then she could be the next Chancellor!
If that does happen, then even a Corbyn-led Labour may end up preventing a Tory majority in 2020.
The Tories are a complete joke. Incompetent, hypocritical and completely divided. Luckily for them, they are up against Mr Corbyn, so from an electoral standpoint it does not matter. But for the country it is a disaster.
Your party is a complete joke, Mr W. You are just going to have to accept that and thank the Lord for Jeremy Corbyn and his useful idiots.
You seem to be labouring under the total misconception that I am a member of the Conservative party. I am not and never have been.
Cameron is indeed a lucky general but he is also a ruthless and clever general. Three virtues that any army would be more happy for their commander to enjoy.
"never have been"...and there was me thinking that Policy Unit membership required you to be a Tory...
@JananGanesh: Imagine getting to age 51 and still being Andrew Bridgen.
Andrew Bridgen together with Stewart Jackass (late of this parish) are a brace of Conservative MP's for whom the public should enjoy an open season - 1st January - 31st December.
Although to be fair the latter could hardly be termed sport as he is such a total dullard he makes makes Bridgen appear Churchillian in political acumen.
General Boles sums it up nicely
Who the fuck is Andrew Bridgen?
Ah diddums, did the nasty man hurt your feelings during the #EUref?
You're like the fucking Lib Dems, shocked to discover the PM fights to win and exactly how few people care about your obsession
The PB REMAINIACS seem a little flustered this morning.
I'm anything but flustered. I'm calm and confident of a Remain victory as I was of the Tories winning the most seats last year.
All this does (apart from damaging the Tories) is highlight the startling fact that Cameron will have to quit if he loses - and probably if he wins by a small margin, as well.
Which will make it very tempting for Tory-hating lefties to vote LEAVE.
It's a tricky one. A Tory party that moves too far right post-Cameron may prove vulnerable in 2020. But that still leaves four years of a government that is even further to the right of this one. And with Corbyn in charge, whatever happens the Tories will get most seats in 2020. You shouldn't confuse labour voters with Labour members. The latter are certifiable. The former mostly aren't and realise where Labour is heading.
If "LEAVE" have made a mistake it is regarding migration:
This has never been an issue for those 'sensible' protaganists for "BrExit". What angers people is the inability and confliction from a bunch-of-folk that impose benefit-equivilance upon use but, yet, raised stipulations from foriegn 'bishoprics' upon realms of-which they have no legitimacy.
Had 'LEAVE' made this about soveriengty, free-trade and international-cooperation then I think "BOO" would be ahead in the polls by miles: Noone wishes to see Poles , Pakistanis or Phillipinoes denied the honest chance to work in England (though they may bulk at other, Celtic, regions). Our ability to determine our own future was stolen in 1973 and 1975: Time to fight back...!
"never have been"...and there was me thinking that Policy Unit membership required you to be a Tory...
The Jacobite Policy Unit only requires an affirmation regarding rejection of Whig principles which is only one consonant away from not allowing Mike Smithson to join twice ....
In the 15th week of this referendum campaign. We keep having "its all over for LEAVE" statements on here. 1. Because of the Treasury 1,2, 3 statements.... 2. Because of Cameron and Osborne leading the campaign... 3. Because of the UK Govt PR machine.... 4. Because the old voters are turning to REMAIN.... 5. Because of the young voters........ 6. Because of Corbyn...... 7. Because of 600 economists.......... 8. Because "they lost the economy argument" 9. Because of Obama/Hollande/Merkel/IMF/Nato/OECD/BankofEngland/establishment/CBI 10. Because "its racist to complain about immigration". 11-20+ more of the same...
Amazing stuff on here, with rarely an article saying that LEAVE will win.
@JananGanesh: Imagine getting to age 51 and still being Andrew Bridgen.
Andrew Bridgen together with Stewart Jackass (late of this parish) are a brace of Conservative MP's for whom the public should enjoy an open season - 1st January - 31st December.
Although to be fair the latter could hardly be termed sport as he is such a total dullard he makes makes Bridgen appear Churchillian in political acumen.
General Boles sums it up nicely
Who the fuck is Andrew Bridgen?
Ah diddums, did the nasty man hurt your feelings during the #EUref?
You're like the fucking Lib Dems, shocked to discover the PM fights to win and exactly how few people care about your obsession
The PB REMAINIACS seem a little flustered this morning.
I'm anything but flustered. I'm calm and confident of a Remain victory as I was of the Tories winning the most seats last year.
You should be ashamed of quoting that Guardian piece, without the huge caveat the pollsters themselves attached to it. Tut tut tut.
You may not be hysterical, but there is a partisan and tell-tale anxiety in your posts. It's beneath your usual standards. Shape up.
I am a little bit anxious because my stint as Guest Editor for the next three weeks started today, I'm sure I'll enrage both sides during that stint.
I've been reading a very good biography of Eamon De Valera. There are some very good suggestions from him on how a small offshore island should manage the process of breaking away from a dominant neighbour...
Become a republic, Catholic theocracy and neutral country ?
And break-up.
De Valera didn't even make the Republic a Republic it was Fine Gael.
"The ideal Ireland that we would have, the Ireland that we dreamed of, would be the home of a people who valued material wealth only as a basis for right living, of a people who, satisfied with frugal comfort, devoted their leisure to the things of the spirit – a land whose countryside would be bright with cosy homesteads, whose fields and villages would be joyous with the sounds of industry, with the romping of sturdy children, the contest of athletic youths and the laughter of happy maidens, whose firesides would be forums for the wisdom of serene old age. The home, in short, of a people living the life that God desires that men should live ..."
Referendums, methinks, are a bit like battles. You start off with a strategy, and at first it all goes well, but then the inherent chaos of human behaviour kicks in, and tiny changes in tactic or weather lead to anarchy down the line, and eventually you've got men bayonetting each other in the mud, not even caring if it's the enemy.
@JananGanesh: Imagine getting to age 51 and still being Andrew Bridgen.
Andrew Bridgen together with Stewart Jackass (late of this parish) are a brace of Conservative MP's for whom the public should enjoy an open season - 1st January - 31st December.
Although to be fair the latter could hardly be termed sport as he is such a total dullard he makes makes Bridgen appear Churchillian in political acumen.
General Boles sums it up nicely
Who the fuck is Andrew Bridgen?
Ah diddums, did the nasty man hurt your feelings during the #EUref?
You're like the fucking Lib Dems, shocked to discover the PM fights to win and exactly how few people care about your obsession
The PB REMAINIACS seem a little flustered this morning.
It looks as though the lucky general has lost his army - unlucky. To stand on a platform of controlling immigration, and then make speeches saying mass immigration is a price worth paying - that is going to taint the conservatives for decades. I think we were all intensely relaxed about the steel jobs in Talbot, I remember a few comments about the natural cycle, creative destruction etc. Whether Corbyn is still the leader it seems that a Corbynista Labour government approaches. And then we will see the creative destruction of the middle class - I will vote for that.
@JananGanesh: Imagine getting to age 51 and still being Andrew Bridgen.
Andrew Bridgen together with Stewart Jackass (late of this parish) are a brace of Conservative MP's for whom the public should enjoy an open season - 1st January - 31st December.
Although to be fair the latter could hardly be termed sport as he is such a total dullard he makes makes Bridgen appear Churchillian in political acumen.
General Boles sums it up nicely
Who the fuck is Andrew Bridgen?
Ah diddums, did the nasty man hurt your feelings during the #EUref?
You're like the fucking Lib Dems, shocked to discover the PM fights to win and exactly how few people care about your obsession
The PB REMAINIACS seem a little flustered this morning.
It was the same last night.
This reminds me of the Scots nat's, endlessly twittering on how the opposition is panicking and scared of being beaten, only to be humiliated on the day
steve richards @steverichards14 "Tony Blair very good on #marr. He's one of the few who can frame an argument re EU rather than get submerged in meaningless statistics"
I've been reading a very good biography of Eamon De Valera. There are some very good suggestions from him on how a small offshore island should manage the process of breaking away from a dominant neighbour...
Become a republic, Catholic theocracy and neutral country ?
And break-up.
De Valera didn't even make the Republic a Republic it was Fine Gael.
"The ideal Irelandes that men should live ..."
Hmmm
That's last years DUP manifesto.
In the Irish rising of 1798 the Nonconformists were, at least at the start, on the same side as the Catholics. Both were subject to discrimination due to not being Church of Ireland.
The leader of the rebellion was a protestant called Theobald Wolfe Tone.
The government played divide and rule and sucessfully used sectarianism to cause a catholic protestant falling out helping them to defeat the rebellion (it probably would have failed anyway. Brigadier-General C.E. Knox wrote to General Lake (who was responsible for Ulster): "I have arranged... to increase the animosity between the Orangemen and the United Irishmen, or liberty men as they call themselves. Upon that animosity depends the safety of the centre counties of the North." (source Lecky, William Edward Hartpole. A History of England in the Eighteenth Century, Volume VII. D. Appleton And Company, New York, 1890, p. 312.)
The rise of the mainly nonconformist DUP and its eclipsing of the mainly church of Ireland UUP has to be seen in this light and in this light it can be seen how the likes of Ian Paisley were able to work with the likes of Martin McGuinness. DUP protestant nationlalism and Irish nationalism are two sides of the same coin.
After the rebellion pressure & bribes were put on the MPs and lords to vote themselves out of existence in the union of 1801- now seen as a disasrtrous error.
LOL
The UUP has been stuffed full of Presbyterians since day one. James Craig NIs first PM was one. The UUP/DUP split is more class based .
As for the Martin McGuinness cooperation, I should read up on how the DUP first approached it. They were simply playing Boris.
Since the schism tbwt brought the DUP into existence only occurred in the 1960s that is hardly surprising.
If "LEAVE" have made a mistake it is regarding migration:
This has never been an issue for those 'sensible' protaganists for "BrExit". What angers people is the inability and confliction from a bunch-of-folk that impose benefit-equivilance upon use but, yet, raised stipulations from foriegn 'bishoprics' upon realms of-which they have no legitimacy.
Had 'LEAVE' made this about soveriengty, free-trade and international-cooperation then I think "BOO" would be ahead in the polls by miles: Noone wishes to see Poles , Pakistanis or Phillipinoes denied the honest chance to work in England (though they may bulk at other, Celtic, regions). Our ability to determine our own future was stolen in 1973 and 1975: Time to fight back...!
:God-Save-The-Queen:!
Completely wrong. In the end immigration is the one thing that can and might win it for LEAVE. They've lost the economic case, sovereignty is too airy-fairy for many people, but immigration is an absolute killer.
Sensible REMAINIANS know this and worry. They can always scream RACIST but too many voters don't care any more, having seen it all their lives.
Essentially, a vote for REMAIN is a vote that says: I accept that the UK will never have anything like full and proper control over migration into this country, for the rest of the foreseeable future.
Absolutely right. If Remain wins now then the British people will have actively endorsed ongoing, large-scale immigration into the UK - as per government policy - and no-one will ever be able to claim again that they were not asked. That's why I have always expected Leave to win.
@JananGanesh: Imagine getting to age 51 and still being Andrew Bridgen.
Andrew Bridgen together with Stewart Jackass (late of this parish) are a brace of Conservative MP's for whom the public should enjoy an open season - 1st January - 31st December.
Although to be fair the latter could hardly be termed sport as he is such a total dullard he makes makes Bridgen appear Churchillian in political acumen.
General Boles sums it up nicely
Who the fuck is Andrew Bridgen?
Ah diddums, did the nasty man hurt your feelings during the #EUref?
You're like the fucking Lib Dems, shocked to discover the PM fights to win and exactly how few people care about your obsession
The PB REMAINIACS seem a little flustered this morning.
I'm anything but flustered. I'm calm and confident of a Remain victory as I was of the Tories winning the most seats last year.
You should be ashamed of quoting that Guardian piece, without the huge caveat the pollsters themselves attached to it. Tut tut tut.
You may not be hysterical, but there is a partisan and tell-tale anxiety in your posts. It's beneath your usual standards. Shape up.
58 -42 in favour of RemaIN. No matter who says what or does.
The Tories are a complete joke. Incompetent, hypocritical and completely divided. Luckily for them, they are up against Mr Corbyn, so from an electoral standpoint it does not matter. But for the country it is a disaster.
Your party is a complete joke, Mr W. You are just going to have to accept that and thank the Lord for Jeremy Corbyn and his useful idiots.
You seem to be labouring under the total misconception that I am a member of the Conservative party. I am not and never have been.
Cameron is indeed a lucky general but he is also a ruthless and clever general. Three virtues that any army would be more happy for their commander to enjoy.
You are a supporter. Cameron has been lucky. But in the end his triangulation is going to cost him. He is being hoisted high on his own petard by colleagues who will soon be hoisted high themselves.
You can only be hoisted 'by' a petard not 'on' it.
Marvelous post, really made me laugh. PB at it its best. Thank you
Everyone thinks it's a nautical phrase when of course, as we all know, a petard is a mediaeval explosive device for siege warfare.
You should not be angry with me Nick. You should be angry at a party leadership that is leading Labour to oblivion at a time when an alternative to this discredited government has never been more necessary.
Well, I don't agree with your premise - I think that a distinctive Labour position is necessary to win, and the well of opportunist centrism has run dry. I actually think here was a place for it for a while - I supported Tony Blair when he was introducing a range of social reforms, and unfashionably I think he intervened in Iraq in good faith. But by 2015 we'd really run out of ideas. I agree it's difficult to win on a socialist manifesto, but it's actually almost impossible to win on a nondescript manifesto, and not worth doing if we tried.
But anyway, these are things rational people can disagree on. What I objected to was your attributing to me a belief that this was all an intellectual exercise and it didn't matter about the people we were supposed to look after. That's simply false, and a projection of your own assessment. We both care about the people Labour most tries to look after, and we have different views on how best to help them. Please don't suggest otherwise.
If "LEAVE" have made a mistake it is regarding migration:
This has never been an issue for those 'sensible' protaganists for "BrExit". What angers people is the inability and confliction from a bunch-of-folk that impose benefit-equivilance upon use but, yet, raised stipulations from foriegn 'bishoprics' upon realms of-which they have no legitimacy.
Had 'LEAVE' made this about soveriengty, free-trade and international-cooperation then I think "BOO" would be ahead in the polls by miles: Noone wishes to see Poles , Pakistanis or Phillipinoes denied the honest chance to work in England (though they may bulk at other, Celtic, regions). Our ability to determine our own future was stolen in 1973 and 1975: Time to fight back...!
:God-Save-The-Queen:!
Completely wrong. In the end immigration is the one thing that can and might win it for LEAVE. They've lost the economic case, sovereignty is too airy-fairy for many people, but immigration is an absolute killer.
Sensible REMAINIANS know this and worry. They can always scream RACIST but too many voters don't care any more, having seen it all their lives.
Essentially, a vote for REMAIN is a vote that says: I accept that the UK will never have anything like full and proper control over migration into this country, for the rest of the foreseeable future.
Absolutely right. If Remain wins now then the British people will have actively endorsed ongoing, large-scale immigration into the UK - as per government policy - and no-one will ever be able to claim again that they were not asked. That's why I have always expected Leave to win.
Very true. This for me is the question. Why will the working class turn out and vote for REMAIN? Even those on benefits have no reason to increase the pressure on housing in their neighbourhood. They will either not vote or will vote LEAVE.
Pienaar this morning said on R4 that he had heard from many Labour MPs that they are meeting on the doorstep in their back yards voter after voter saying that they will vote LEAVE. That core Labour vote in England is crumbling.
Amazing stuff on here, with rarely an article saying that LEAVE will win.
Because nobody believes out will win.
Ladbrokes said last week that in terms of the number of individual bets, more were for LEAVE. Just smaller amounts per bet than REMAIN.
Since the wealthier are disproportionately for remain that is hardly surprisung.
Seems to me tbat the bookies are just reflecting the confirmation bias of the people who have most money to throw at them.
Increasingly this referendum ia beginning to look like a rebellion via the ballot box against the ruling class , ie a more modern version of the Wat Tyler revolt, the Pilgrimage of Grace and the American Revolt of 230 years ago
Referendums, methinks, are a bit like battles. You start off with a strategy, and at first it all goes well, but then the inherent chaos of human behaviour kicks in, and tiny changes in tactic or weather lead to anarchy down the line, and eventually you've got men bayonetting each other in the mud, not even caring if it's the enemy.
It's certainly getting very fractious in BTL comments and Twitter with red-on-red and blue-on-blue attacks.
The rhetoric is becoming reminiscent of SIndy in more ways than one. Quite remarkable stuff. A real *had to be there to understand it* clash of viewpoints.
If "LEAVE" have made a mistake it is regarding migration:
This has never been an issue for those 'sensible' protaganists for "BrExit". What angers people is the inability and confliction from a bunch-of-folk that impose benefit-equivilance upon use but, yet, raised stipulations from foriegn 'bishoprics' upon realms of-which they have no legitimacy.
Had 'LEAVE' made this about soveriengty, free-trade and international-cooperation then I think "BOO" would be ahead in the polls by miles: Noone wishes to see Poles , Pakistanis or Phillipinoes denied the honest chance to work in England (though they may bulk at other, Celtic, regions). Our ability to determine our own future was stolen in 1973 and 1975: Time to fight back...!
:God-Save-The-Queen:!
Completely wrong. In the end immigration is the one thing that can and might win it for LEAVE. They've lost the economic case, sovereignty is too airy-fairy for many people, but immigration is an absolute killer.
Sensible REMAINIANS know this and worry. They can always scream RACIST but too many voters don't care any more, having seen it all their lives.
Essentially, a vote for REMAIN is a vote that says: I accept that the UK will never have anything like full and proper control over migration into this country, for the rest of the foreseeable future.
Absolutely right. If Remain wins now then the British people will have actively endorsed ongoing, large-scale immigration into the UK - as per government policy - and no-one will ever be able to claim again that they were not asked. That's why I have always expected Leave to win.
Absolutely right. If RemaIN wins, we should embrace the EU. We have only been a reluctant member so far. The EU has given and protected worker's rights more than British government would have done.
Morning all. Just caught up with PMQ's on Iplayer. Osborne had some very good lines to trot out and cheer his supporters on the back benches. However, he comes across as a smug, sneering git imo.
Referendums, methinks, are a bit like battles. You start off with a strategy, and at first it all goes well, but then the inherent chaos of human behaviour kicks in, and tiny changes in tactic or weather lead to anarchy down the line, and eventually you've got men bayonetting each other in the mud, not even caring if it's the enemy.
It's certainly getting very fractious in BTL comments and Twitter with red-on-red and blue-on-blue attacks.
The rhetoric is becoming reminiscent of SIndy in more ways than one. Quite remarkable stuff. A real *had to be there to understand it* clash of viewpoints.
Red on red ? Who has been attacking Kate Hoey ? Can you name even 10 Labour MPs supporting OUT.
You should not be angry with me Nick. You should be angry at a party leadership that is leading Labour to oblivion at a time when an alternative to this discredited government has never been more necessary.
Well, I don't agree with your premise - I think that a distinctive Labour position is necessary to win, and the well of opportunist centrism has run dry. I actually think here was a place for it for a while - I supported Tony Blair when he was introducing a range of social reforms, and unfashionably I think he intervened in Iraq in good faith. But by 2015 we'd really run out of ideas. I agree it's difficult to win on a socialist manifesto, but it's actually almost impossible to win on a nondescript manifesto, and not worth doing if we tried.
But anyway, these are things rational people can disagree on. What I objected to was your attributing to me a belief that this was all an intellectual exercise and it didn't matter about the people we were supposed to look after. That's simply false, and a projection of your own assessment. We both care about the people Labour most tries to look after, and we have different views on how best to help them. Please don't suggest otherwise.
I really do not have the time to dig out the quote. But it was there. It is not my habit to make things up.
Amazing stuff on here, with rarely an article saying that LEAVE will win.
Because nobody believes out will win.
Ladbrokes said last week that in terms of the number of individual bets, more were for LEAVE. Just smaller amounts per bet than REMAIN.
...Increasingly this referendum ia beginning to look like a rebellion via the ballot box against the ruling class , ie a more modern version of the Wat Tyler revolt, the Pilgrimage of Grace and the American Revolt of 230 years ago
If "LEAVE" have made a mistake it is regarding migration:
This has never been an issue for those 'sensible' protaganists for "BrExit". What angers people is the inability and confliction from a bunch-of-folk that impose benefit-equivilance upon use but, yet, raised stipulations from foriegn 'bishoprics' upon realms of-which they have no legitimacy.
Had 'LEAVE' made this about soveriengty, free-trade and international-cooperation then I think "BOO" would be ahead in the polls by miles: Noone wishes to see Poles , Pakistanis or Phillipinoes denied the honest chance to work in England (though they may bulk at other, Celtic, regions). Our ability to determine our own future was stolen in 1973 and 1975: Time to fight back...!
:God-Save-The-Queen:!
Completely wrong. In the end immigration is the one thing that can and might win it for LEAVE. They've lost the economic case, sovereignty is too airy-fairy for many people, but immigration is an absolute killer.
Sensible REMAINIANS know this and worry. They can always scream RACIST but too many voters don't care any more, having seen it all their lives.
Essentially, a vote for REMAIN is a vote that says: I accept that the UK will never have anything like full and proper control over migration into this country, for the rest of the foreseeable future.
Absolutely right. If Remain wins now then the British people will have actively endorsed ongoing, large-scale immigration into the UK - as per government policy - and no-one will ever be able to claim again that they were not asked. That's why I have always expected Leave to win.
Makes you wonder why the outers couldn't see that while agitating for a referendum that they stand a very good chance if losing.
In the 15th week of this referendum campaign. We keep having "its all over for LEAVE" statements on here. 1. Because of the Treasury 1,2, 3 statements.... 2. Because of Cameron and Osborne leading the campaign... 3. Because of the UK Govt PR machine.... 4. Because the old voters are turning to REMAIN.... 5. Because of the young voters........ 6. Because of Corbyn...... 7. Because of 600 economists.......... 8. Because "they lost the economy argument" 9. Because of Obama/Hollande/Merkel/IMF/Nato/OECD/BankofEngland/establishment/CBI 10. Because "its racist to complain about immigration". 11-20+ more of the same...
Amazing stuff on here, with rarely an article saying that LEAVE will win.
Whatever the final result - I'm enjoying the flapping from Remain. Everything is good news for them, yet we're near 50/50 with 25 days to go.
And now there's much huffing re using Cameron's own words about controlling immigration against him. The EU Army leak was also a highpoint last week.
Morning all. Just caught up with PMQ's on Iplayer. Osborne had some very good lines to trot out and cheer his supporters on the back benches. However, he comes across as a smug, sneering git imo.
Nah, he has 2% of voters regarding him as a natural Leader..... 2% also regard him as charismatic!
If "LEAVE" have made a mistake it is regarding migration:
This has never been an issue for those 'sensible' protaganists for "BrExit". What angers people is the inability and confliction from a bunch-of-folk that impose benefit-equivilance upon use but, yet, raised stipulations from foriegn 'bishoprics' upon realms of-which they have no legitimacy.
Had 'LEAVE' made this about soveriengty, free-trade and international-cooperation then I think "BOO" would be ahead in the polls by miles: Noone wishes to see Poles , Pakistanis or Phillipinoes denied the honest chance to work in England (though they may bulk at other, Celtic, regions). Our ability to determine our own future was stolen in 1973 and 1975: Time to fight back...!
:God-Save-The-Queen:!
Completely wrong. In the end immigration is the one thing that can and might win it for LEAVE. They've lost the economic case, sovereignty is too airy-fairy for many people, but immigration is an absolute killer.
Sensible REMAINIANS know this and worry. They can always scream RACIST but too many voters don't care any more, having seen it all their lives.
Essentially, a vote for REMAIN is a vote that says: I accept that the UK will never have anything like full and proper control over migration into this country, for the rest of the foreseeable future.
Absolutely right. If Remain wins now then the British people will have actively endorsed ongoing, large-scale immigration into the UK - as per government policy - and no-one will ever be able to claim again that they were not asked. That's why I have always expected Leave to win.
Absolutely right. If RemaIN wins, we should embrace the EU. We have only been a reluctant member so far. The EU has given and protected worker's rights more than British government would have done.
You should not be angry with me Nick. You should be angry at a party leadership that is leading Labour to oblivion at a time when an alternative to this discredited government has never been more necessary.
Well, I don't agree with your premise - I think that a distinctive Labour position is necessary to win, and the well of opportunist centrism has run dry. I actually think here was a place for it for a while...
But NickP, Labour continues to lose the working class vote and adopting a pro-immigration position at this time will accelerate that loss.
In the 15th week of this referendum campaign. We keep having "its all over for LEAVE" statements on here. 1. Because of the Treasury 1,2, 3 statements.... 2. Because of Cameron and Osborne leading the campaign... 3. Because of the UK Govt PR machine.... 4. Because the old voters are turning to REMAIN.... 5. Because of the young voters........ 6. Because of Corbyn...... 7. Because of 600 economists.......... 8. Because "they lost the economy argument" 9. Because of Obama/Hollande/Merkel/IMF/Nato/OECD/BankofEngland/establishment/CBI 10. Because "its racist to complain about immigration". 11-20+ more of the same...
Amazing stuff on here, with rarely an article saying that LEAVE will win.
Whatever the final result - I'm enjoying the flapping from Remain. Everything is good news for them, yet we're near 50/50 with 25 days to go.
And now there's much huffing re using Cameron's own words about controlling immigration against him. The EU Army leak was also a highpoint last week.
IDS on Sky now.
You can say the same for every pronouncement for Leave, the "migiration figures are deadly" "BoJo can win this", etc, etc.
It won't be enough for leave to be level going into the day.
Amazing stuff on here, with rarely an article saying that LEAVE will win.
Because nobody believes out will win.
Ladbrokes said last week that in terms of the number of individual bets, more were for LEAVE. Just smaller amounts per bet than REMAIN.
Since the wealthier are disproportionately for remain that is hardly surprisung.
Seems to me tbat the bookies are just reflecting the confirmation bias of the people who have most money to throw at them.
Increasingly this referendum ia beginning to look like a rebellion via the ballot box against the ruling class , ie a more modern version of the Wat Tyler revolt, the Pilgrimage of Grace and the American Revolt of 230 years ago
there's a distinct chance that immigration will decide the vote, and win it for LEAVE.
That is entirely possible, and would be one of the saddest and shameful events of my lifetime.
Fear and loathing of "the other"; what drove the Zoomers, and yes, the Austrian Corporal himself.
"My life would be so much better if it wasn't for THEM!"
It would leave a National stain, and I want no part of it.
No part, eh? What washing powder did you use on these stains?
List of endorsements in the Scottish independence referendum, 2014
Against independence
Registered political parties Britannica
Non-participant political parties Britain First British National Party United Kingdom Independence Party
Politicians David Coburn MEP Nigel Farage MEP George Galloway MP
The following organisations and individuals registered with the Electoral Commission as supporting a No vote. Alistair McConnachie (Holocaust denier) Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland
surbiton - but the strikes in France and trouble in Belgium are the direct consequence of the EU demanding reduced worker's rights - you know that really. I think Labour's position is against zero hour contracts, and the EU push is for zero hour contracts to be made legal in France. Why on earth do you think the EU cares about the people, if they did in anyway at all you wouldn't see the terrible unemployment in the EU. The EU cares about German banks.
If "LEAVE" have made a mistake it is regarding migration:
This has never been an issue for those 'sensible' protaganists for "BrExit". What angers people is the inability and confliction from a bunch-of-folk that impose benefit-equivilance upon use but, yet, raised stipulations from foriegn 'bishoprics' upon realms of-which they have no legitimacy.
Had 'LEAVE' made this about soveriengty, free-trade and international-cooperation then I think "BOO" would be ahead in the polls by miles: Noone wishes to see Poles , Pakistanis or Phillipinoes denied the honest chance to work in England (though they may bulk at other, Celtic, regions). Our ability to determine our own future was stolen in 1973 and 1975: Time to fight back...!
:God-Save-The-Queen:!
Completely wrong. In the end immigration is the one thing that can and might win it for LEAVE. They've lost the economic case, sovereignty is too airy-fairy for many people, but immigration is an absolute killer.
Sensible REMAINIANS know this and worry. They can always scream RACIST but too many voters don't care any more, having seen it all their lives.
Essentially, a vote for REMAIN is a vote that says: I accept that the UK will never have anything like full and proper control over migration into this country, for the rest of the foreseeable future.
Absolutely right. If Remain wins now then the British people will have actively endorsed ongoing, large-scale immigration into the UK - as per government policy - and no-one will ever be able to claim again that they were not asked. That's why I have always expected Leave to win.
Absolutely right. If RemaIN wins, we should embrace the EU. We have only been a reluctant member so far. The EU has given and protected worker's rights more than British government would have done.
Neither IN nor OUT should really be focussing on the past. After all, the question is not: has the EU worked for us; but will the EU work for us in the future.
Consider the fact that the working time directive which the post lauds in top of the "most expensive pieces of EU legislation" list as well... but apparently the EU has nothing to do with it!
All this does (apart from damaging the Tories) is highlight the startling fact that Cameron will have to quit if he loses - and probably if he wins by a small margin, as well.
Which will make it very tempting for Tory-hating lefties to vote LEAVE.
Above all Cameron likes to win. At heart he's an upper class amateur sportsman. But he can't win this time. If the referendum goes his way his disembowelling will be demanded as part of the healing process inside the Tory party.
I'm not surprised that EdM is planning a comeback. I guessed as much when he "went quiet." They just never learn, their ambitions always outweigh any common sense. It's time for new faces but unfortunately there aren't any who are remotely capable of being a Leader (or potential PM).
"The EU has given and protected worker's rights more than British government would have done. "
I understand why the Left are generally in favour, but what happens if the EU lurches to the Right (like Hollande). And begin to pass Rightist Regulations and Directives? Would you demand a recount or a new referendum?
If "LEAVE" have made a mistake it is regarding migration:
This has never been an issue for those 'sensible' protaganists for "BrExit". What angers people is the inability and confliction from a bunch-of-folk that impose benefit-equivilance upon use but, yet, raised stipulations from foriegn 'bishoprics' upon realms of-which they have no legitimacy.
Had 'LEAVE' made this about soveriengty, free-trade and international-cooperation then I think "BOO" would be ahead in the polls by miles: Noone wishes to see Poles , Pakistanis or Phillipinoes denied the honest chance to work in England (though they may bulk at other, Celtic, regions). Our ability to determine our own future was stolen in 1973 and 1975: Time to fight back...!
:God-Save-The-Queen:!
Completely wrong. In the end immigration is the one thing that can and might win it for LEAVE. They've lost the economic case, sovereignty is too airy-fairy for many people, but immigration is an absolute killer.
Sensible REMAINIANS know this and worry. They can always scream RACIST but too many voters don't care any more, having seen it all their lives.
Essentially, a vote for REMAIN is a vote that says: I accept that the UK will never have anything like full and proper control over migration into this country, for the rest of the foreseeable future.
Absolutely right. If Remain wins now then the British people will have actively endorsed ongoing, large-scale immigration into the UK - as per government policy - and no-one will ever be able to claim again that they were not asked. That's why I have always expected Leave to win.
Absolutely right. If RemaIN wins, we should embrace the EU. We have only been a reluctant member so far. The EU has given and protected worker's rights more than British government would have done.
Neither IN nor OUT should really be focussing on the past. After all, the question is not: has the EU worked for us; but will the EU work for us in the future.
Consider the fact that the working time directive which the post lauds in top of the "most expensive pieces of EU legislation" list as well... but apparently the EU has nothing to do with it!
And you know as well as I do that it's necessary for Leave to rebut Hattiesque nonsense about the EU being the font of all workers rights. It's simply untrue.
@NickPalmer - Nick, I owe you an apology. I did a search of the archive and found the quote I have been referring to. However, it is clear I misread what you wrote:
I totally disagree with your analysis of where labour should go and cannot get my head round your support for Corbyn, but I hope you accept that am not crass enough to deliberately make stuff up to make my points. I got this wrong and I am sorry.
If "LEAVE" have made a mistake it is regarding migration:
This has never been an issue for those 'sensible' protaganists for "BrExit". What angers people is the inability and confliction from a bunch-of-folk that impose benefit-equivilance upon use but, yet, raised stipulations from foriegn 'bishoprics' upon realms of-which they have no legitimacy.
Had 'LEAVE' made this about soveriengty, free-trade and international-cooperation then I think "BOO" would be ahead in the polls by miles: Noone wishes to see Poles , Pakistanis or Phillipinoes denied the honest chance to work in England (though they may bulk at other, Celtic, regions). Our ability to determine our own future was stolen in 1973 and 1975: Time to fight back...!
:God-Save-The-Queen:!
Completely wrong. In the end immigration is the one thing that can and might win it for LEAVE. They've lost the economic case, sovereignty is too airy-fairy for many people, but immigration is an absolute killer.
Sensible REMAINIANS know this and worry. They can always scream RACIST but too many voters don't care any more, having seen it all their lives.
Essentially, a vote for REMAIN is a vote that says: I accept that the UK will never have anything like full and proper control over migration into this country, for the rest of the foreseeable future.
Absolutely right. If Remain wins now then the British people will have actively endorsed ongoing, large-scale immigration into the UK - as per government policy - and no-one will ever be able to claim again that they were not asked. That's why I have always expected Leave to win.
Absolutely right. If RemaIN wins, we should embrace the EU. We have only been a reluctant member so far. The EU has given and protected worker's rights more than British government would have done.
Absolutely not necessarily.
The Peoples' consciousness has been awaken. With luck they will become more engaged and hold politicians to account more than previously.
A 52/48 or closer remain win will solve nothing and poison politics for a decade because it will be quickly seen as a gerrymwndered result achieved by partisan lying by institutions like the government that should hwve stayed above it.
It will do for the establishment what the gattinggate episode did for Pakistani Umpires
Amazing stuff on here, with rarely an article saying that LEAVE will win.
Because nobody believes out will win.
Ladbrokes said last week that in terms of the number of individual bets, more were for LEAVE. Just smaller amounts per bet than REMAIN.
Since the wealthier are disproportionately for remain that is hardly surprisung.
Seems to me tbat the bookies are just reflecting the confirmation bias of the people who have most money to throw at them.
Increasingly this referendum ia beginning to look like a rebellion via the ballot box against the ruling class , ie a more modern version of the Wat Tyler revolt, the Pilgrimage of Grace and the American Revolt of 230 years ago
The bookies and punters hugely underestimated the wealthy side in GE 2015.
Ed Miliband returning to the Labour leadership having been trounced at the last election is as ridiculous a proposition as William Hague replacing IDS in 2003! In fact Ed Miliband would probably do even worse than Corbyn, at least under Corbyn the Labour base and the left is motivated to an extent it was not under Ed even if Corbyn has little appeal to floating voters. Ed Miliband would both fail to motivate the base to the same extent while still having no appeal to former Labour voters who are now voting Tory or UKIP
surbiton - but the strikes in France and trouble in Belgium are the direct consequence of the EU demanding reduced worker's rights - you know that really. I think Labour's position is against zero hour contracts, and the EU push is for zero hour contracts to be made legal in France. Why on earth do you think the EU cares about the people, if they did in anyway at all you wouldn't see the terrible unemployment in the EU. The EU cares about German banks.
It's not the EU, it's the national governments.
The EU cannot even stop French air traffic controllers from holding Europe to ransom, as they are going to do next weekend.
If "LEAVE" have made a mistake it is regarding migration:
This has never been an issue for those 'sensible' protaganists for "BrExit". What angers people is the inability and confliction from a bunch-of-folk that impose benefit-equivilance upon use but, yet, raised stipulations from foriegn 'bishoprics' upon realms of-which they have no legitimacy.
Had 'LEAVE' made this about soveriengty, free-trade and international-cooperation then I think "BOO" would be ahead in the polls by miles: Noone wishes to see Poles , Pakistanis or Phillipinoes denied the honest chance to work in England (though they may bulk at other, Celtic, regions). Our ability to determine our own future was stolen in 1973 and 1975: Time to fight back...!
:God-Save-The-Queen:!
Completely wrong. In the end immigration is the one thing that can and might win it for LEAVE. They've lost the economic case, sovereignty is too airy-fairy for many people, but immigration is an absolute killer.
Sensible REMAINIANS know this and worry. They can always scream RACIST but too many voters don't care any more, having seen it all their lives.
[...]
Absolutely right. If Remain wins now then the British people will have actively endorsed ongoing, large-scale immigration into the UK - as per government policy - and no-one will ever be able to claim again that they were not asked. That's why I have always expected Leave to win.
Absolutely right. If RemaIN wins, we should embrace the EU. We have only been a reluctant member so far. The EU has given and protected worker's rights more than British government would have done.
Neither IN nor OUT should really be focussing on the past. After all, the question is not: has the EU worked for us; but will the EU work for us in the future.
Consider the fact that the working time directive which the post lauds in top of the "most expensive pieces of EU legislation" list as well... but apparently the EU has nothing to do with it!
And you know as well as I do that it's necessary for Leave to rebut Hattiesque nonsense about the EU being the font of all workers rights. It's simply untrue.
Correct. But Leave do need to explain if either: EU workers' rights go too far and are expensive and unnecessary; or EU worker's rights add nothing as we do it ourselves.
By comparison although Hattie's comments about the EU being the sole source of workers' rights are disingenuous, at least the worker's rights = good is consistent.
All this does (apart from damaging the Tories) is highlight the startling fact that Cameron will have to quit if he loses - and probably if he wins by a small margin, as well.
Which will make it very tempting for Tory-hating lefties to vote LEAVE.
Above all Cameron likes to win. At heart he's an upper class amateur sportsman. But he can't win this time. If the referendum goes his way his disembowelling will be demanded as part of the healing process inside the Tory party.
If "LEAVE" have made a mistake it is regarding migration:
This has never been an issue for those 'sensible' protaganists for "BrExit". What angers people is the inability and confliction from a bunch-of-folk that impose benefit-equivilance upon use but, yet, raised stipulations from foriegn 'bishoprics' upon realms of-which they have no legitimacy.
Had 'LEAVE' made this about soveriengty, free-trade and international-cooperation then I think "BOO" would be ahead in the polls by miles: Noone wishes to see Poles , Pakistanis or Phillipinoes denied the honest chance to work in England (though they may bulk at other, Celtic, regions). Our ability to determine our own future was stolen in 1973 and 1975: Time to fight back...!
:God-Save-The-Queen:!
Completely wrong. In the end immigration is the one thing that can and might win it for LEAVE. They've lost the economic case, sovereignty is too airy-fairy for many people, but immigration is an absolute killer.
Sensible REMAINIANS know this and worry. They can always scream RACIST but too many voters don't care any more, having seen it all their lives.
Essentially, a vote for REMAIN is a vote that says: I accept that the UK will never have anything like full and proper control over migration into this country, for the rest of the foreseeable future.
Absolutely right. If Remain wins now then the British people will have actively endorsed ongoing, large-scale immigration into the UK - as per government policy - and no-one will ever be able to claim again that they were not asked. That's why I have always expected Leave to win.
Makes you wonder why the outers couldn't see that while agitating for a referendum that they stand a very good chance if losing.
A lot of Outers are not really that bothered about immigration - if they were, they would not have supported government economic and fiscal policy for all these years - but it is by far Leave's strongest suit. Probably the only one, in fact.
If "LEAVE" have made a mistake it is regarding migration:
This has never been an issue for those 'sensible' protaganists for "BrExit". What angers people is the inability and confliction from a bunch-of-folk that impose benefit-equivilance upon use but, yet, raised stipulations from foriegn 'bishoprics' upon realms of-which they have no legitimacy.
Had 'LEAVE' made this about soveriengty, free-trade and international-cooperation then I think "BOO" would be ahead in the polls by miles: Noone wishes to see Poles , Pakistanis or Phillipinoes denied the honest chance to work in England (though they may bulk at other, Celtic, regions). Our ability to determine our own future was stolen in 1973 and 1975: Time to fight back...!
:God-Save-The-Queen:!
Completely wrong. In the end immigration is the one thing that can and might win it for LEAVE. They've lost the economic case, sovereignty is too airy-fairy for many people, but immigration is an absolute killer.
Sensible REMAINIANS know this and worry. They can always scream RACIST but too many voters don't care any more, having seen it all their lives.
Essentially, a vote for REMAIN is a vote that says: I accept that the UK will never have anything like full and proper control over migration into this country, for the rest of the foreseeable future.
Absolutely right. If Remain wins now then the British people will have actively endorsed ongoing, large-scale immigration into the UK - as per government policy - and no-one will ever be able to claim again that they were not asked. That's why I have always expected Leave to win.
Only if Remain win a landslide, if Remain scrape home it will only be because economic fears beat immigration fears, the latter fears still remain
If "LEAVE" have made a mistake it is regarding migration:
This has never been an issue for those 'sensible' protaganists for "BrExit". What angers people is the inability and confliction from a bunch-of-folk that impose benefit-equivilance upon use but, yet, raised stipulations from foriegn 'bishoprics' upon realms of-which they have no legitimacy.
Had 'LEAVE' made this about soveriengty, free-trade and international-cooperation then I think "BOO" would be ahead in the polls by miles: Noone wishes to see Poles , Pakistanis or Phillipinoes denied the honest chance to work in England (though they may bulk at other, Celtic, regions). Our ability to determine our own future was stolen in 1973 and 1975: Time to fight back...!
:God-Save-The-Queen:!
Completely wrong. In the end immigration is the one thing that can and might win it for LEAVE. They've lost the economic case, sovereignty is too airy-fairy for many people, but immigration is an absolute killer.
Sensible REMAINIANS know this and worry. They can always scream RACIST but too many voters don't care any more, having seen it all their lives.
Essentially, a vote for REMAIN is a vote that says: I accept that the UK will never have anything like full and proper control over migration into this country, for the rest of the foreseeable future.
Absolutely right. If Remain wins now then the British people will have actively endorsed ongoing, large-scale immigration into the UK - as per government policy - and no-one will ever be able to claim again that they were not asked. That's why I have always expected Leave to win.
Only if Remain win a landslide, if Remain scrape home it will only be because economic fears beat immigration fears, the latter fears still remain
It's like Scotland, it's not like the nationalist thinking has gone away, it's just that it won't be expressed as strongly and as publicly for a while.
All this does (apart from damaging the Tories) is highlight the startling fact that Cameron will have to quit if he loses - and probably if he wins by a small margin, as well.
Which will make it very tempting for Tory-hating lefties to vote LEAVE.
Why would lefties risk voting to replace Cameron with a rightwing Leaver?
All this does (apart from damaging the Tories) is highlight the startling fact that Cameron will have to quit if he loses - and probably if he wins by a small margin, as well.
Which will make it very tempting for Tory-hating lefties to vote LEAVE.
In the knowledge they might get Boris or Gove? I don't htink so the left hate Gove with a passion and think Boris is Trump lite.
If "LEAVE" have made a mistake it is regarding migration:
This has never been an issue for those 'sensible' protaganists for "BrExit". What angers people is the inability and confliction from a bunch-of-folk that impose benefit-equivilance upon use but, yet, raised stipulations from foriegn 'bishoprics' upon realms of-which they have no legitimacy.
Had 'LEAVE' made this about soveriengty, free-trade and international-cooperation then I think "BOO" would be ahead in the polls by miles: Noone wishes to see Poles , Pakistanis or Phillipinoes denied the honest chance to work in England (though they may bulk at other, Celtic, regions). Our ability to determine our own future was stolen in 1973 and 1975: Time to fight back...!
:God-Save-The-Queen:!
Completely wrong. In the end immigration is the one thing that can and might win it for LEAVE. They've lost the economic case, sovereignty is too airy-fairy for many people, but immigration is an absolute killer.
Sensible REMAINIANS know this and worry. They can always scream RACIST but too many voters don't care any more, having seen it all their lives.
Essentially, a vote for REMAIN is a vote that says: I accept that the UK will never have anything like full and proper control over migration into this country, for the rest of the foreseeable future.
Absolutely right. If Remain wins now then the British people will have actively endorsed ongoing, large-scale immigration into the UK - as per government policy - and no-one will ever be able to claim again that they were not asked. That's why I have always expected Leave to win.
Only if Remain win a landslide, if Remain scrape home it will only be because economic fears beat immigration fears, the latter fears still remain
Of course, the worries will still be there. But the voters will have had their say.
Iain Martin @iainmartin1 39m39 minutes ago Well done all involved. Brexit campaign eclipsed by Tory leadership contest and plot to remove the PM. Brilliant strategy. Genius.
Sunder Katwala @sundersays 20m20 minutes ago 'Stop Ze German advance' xenophobia on M40 from overenthusiastic Outers. unauthorised, by "dummies" say @vote_leave
surbiton - but the strikes in France and trouble in Belgium are the direct consequence of the EU demanding reduced worker's rights - you know that really. I think Labour's position is against zero hour contracts, and the EU push is for zero hour contracts to be made legal in France. Why on earth do you think the EU cares about the people, if they did in anyway at all you wouldn't see the terrible unemployment in the EU. The EU cares about German banks.
It's not the EU, it's the national governments.
The EU cannot even stop French air traffic controllers from holding Europe to ransom, as they are going to do next weekend.
Morning Southam.
How do you see the ongoing rolling French strikes influencing the referendum? Does it have any real impact or is it just noise?
If "LEAVE" have made a mistake it is regarding migration:
This has never been an issue for those 'sensible' protaganists for "BrExit". What angers people is the inability and confliction from a bunch-of-folk that impose benefit-equivilance upon use but, yet, raised stipulations from foriegn 'bishoprics' upon realms of-which they have no legitimacy.
snip
:God-Save-The-Queen:!
Completely wrong. In the end immigration is the one thing that can and might win it for LEAVE. They've lost the economic case, sovereignty is too airy-fairy for many people, but immigration is an absolute killer.
Sensible REMAINIANS know this and worry. They can always scream RACIST but too many voters don't care any more, having seen it all their lives.
[...]
Absolutely right. If Remain wins now then the British people will have actively endorsed ongoing, large-scale immigration into the UK - as per government policy - and no-one will ever be able to claim again that they were not asked. That's why I have always expected Leave to win.
Absolutely right. If RemaIN wins, we should embrace the EU. We have only been a reluctant member so far. The EU has given and protected worker's rights more than British government would have done.
Neither IN nor OUT should really be focussing on the past. After all, the question is not: has the EU worked for us; but will the EU work for us in the future.
Consider the fact that the working time directive which the post lauds in top of the "most expensive pieces of EU legislation" list as well... but apparently the EU has nothing to do with it!
And you know as well as I do that it's necessary for Leave to rebut Hattiesque nonsense about the EU being the font of all workers rights. It's simply untrue.
Correct. But Leave do need to explain if either: EU workers' rights go too far and are expensive and unnecessary; or EU worker's rights add nothing as we do it ourselves.
By comparison although Hattie's comments about the EU being the sole source of workers' rights are disingenuous, at least the worker's rights = good is consistent.
I'm genuinely puzzled here.
Why should Leave need to do anything? They aren't HMG. They're a coalition of viewpoints that believes we're better off out. I'm not expecting LabourLeave to do so, anymore than GrassrootsOut.
All this does (apart from damaging the Tories) is highlight the startling fact that Cameron will have to quit if he loses - and probably if he wins by a small margin, as well.
Which will make it very tempting for Tory-hating lefties to vote LEAVE.
Why would lefties risk voting to replace Cameron with a rightwing Leaver?
The EU is in the pocket of the military-industrial complex and tramples all over workers' rights so we will vote Leave and let John Redwood...um...er...IDS...er
Comments
Peter Hitchens reports today on what seems to me a miscarriage of justice. However at the knub of this is the fact that someone has been sent to prison for 2 1/2 years for not reporting their spouse to the authorities. Just think about that for a minute. If we have gone this far down the road to fascism, it is hardly surprising that people who oppose the governments view are reluctant to tell pollsters or even other people unless they trust them their real views.
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2016/05/peter-hitchens-nutrition-experts-are-stuffing-us-full-of-low-cal-baloney.html
Engage your brain: She knows feck-all about business. Matrix-Chambers are not Hargreaves.....
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=you+are+going+on+the+list+dads+army&view=detail&mid=E153340C3E2CC62E0D10E153340C3E2CC62E0D10&FORM=VIRE
The UUP has been stuffed full of Presbyterians since day one. James Craig NIs first PM was one.
The UUP/DUP split is more class based .
As for the Martin McGuinness cooperation, I should read up on how the DUP first approached it. They were simply playing Boris.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRXm-4cIW3Q
@MrHarryCole: For context: 14 MPs had written to Brady demanding a leadership contest by 2012... https://t.co/EsB0ZPatFZ
@chrisshipitv: Blimey: @LiamFoxMP tells #Marr Cameron can stay if he loses #EUref. @NadineDorriesMP says he must go if he wins by *less* than 60-40 margin
@Conorpope: Nadine Dorries, who slated Cameron (Eton, Oxford) & Osborne (St Paul's, Oxford) for being "posh boys", backs Boris (Eton, Oxford) for leader
Not entirely sure that is the message Leave had on their grid this morning
This has never been an issue for those 'sensible' protaganists for "BrExit". What angers people is the inability and confliction from a bunch-of-folk that impose benefit-equivilance upon use but, yet, raised stipulations from foriegn 'bishoprics' upon realms of-which they have no legitimacy.
Had 'LEAVE' made this about soveriengty, free-trade and international-cooperation then I think "BOO" would be ahead in the polls by miles: Noone wishes to see Poles , Pakistanis or Phillipinoes denied the honest chance to work in England (though they may bulk at other, Celtic, regions). Our ability to determine our own future was stolen in 1973 and 1975: Time to fight back...!
:God-Save-The-Queen:!
Footage has emerged of Malky and Divot in their secret island base logging on to PB...
ThunderNats are GO!
1. Because of the Treasury 1,2, 3 statements....
2. Because of Cameron and Osborne leading the campaign...
3. Because of the UK Govt PR machine....
4. Because the old voters are turning to REMAIN....
5. Because of the young voters........
6. Because of Corbyn......
7. Because of 600 economists..........
8. Because "they lost the economy argument"
9. Because of Obama/Hollande/Merkel/IMF/Nato/OECD/BankofEngland/establishment/CBI
10. Because "its racist to complain about immigration".
11-20+ more of the same...
Amazing stuff on here, with rarely an article saying that LEAVE will win.
Fear and loathing of "the other"; what drove the Zoomers, and yes, the Austrian Corporal himself.
"My life would be so much better if it wasn't for THEM!"
It would leave a National stain, and I want no part of it.
It's personal. How British voters react to criticism of the political party they support. https://t.co/71YzfTqVWT
As was said about a Marxist econometrician, "he knows the answers to begin with and can prove them with numbers".
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3614553/Criticism-Putin-censored-Corbyn-aide-Seumas-Milne-blocks-anti-Russia-briefing-note-Labour-MPs.html
steve richards @steverichards14
"Tony Blair very good on #marr. He's one of the few who can frame an argument re EU rather than get submerged in meaningless statistics"
BBC This Week
@bbcthisweek
He advised you to camp above the French on Everest
DON'T eat while you watch Brian Blessed explaining why #bbctw
The man who lost the unloseable election becoming the leader again!
But anyway, these are things rational people can disagree on. What I objected to was your attributing to me a belief that this was all an intellectual exercise and it didn't matter about the people we were supposed to look after. That's simply false, and a projection of your own assessment. We both care about the people Labour most tries to look after, and we have different views on how best to help them. Please don't suggest otherwise.
Pienaar this morning said on R4 that he had heard from many Labour MPs that they are meeting on the doorstep in their back yards voter after voter saying that they will vote LEAVE. That core Labour vote in England is crumbling.
Seems to me tbat the bookies are just reflecting the confirmation bias of the people who have most money to throw at them.
Increasingly this referendum ia beginning to look like a rebellion via the ballot box against the ruling class , ie a more modern version of the Wat Tyler revolt, the Pilgrimage of Grace and the American Revolt of 230 years ago
The rhetoric is becoming reminiscent of SIndy in more ways than one. Quite remarkable stuff. A real *had to be there to understand it* clash of viewpoints.
Just caught up with PMQ's on Iplayer.
Osborne had some very good lines to trot out and cheer his supporters on the back benches.
However, he comes across as a smug, sneering git imo.
And now there's much huffing re using Cameron's own words about controlling immigration against him. The EU Army leak was also a highpoint last week.
IDS on Sky now.
It won't be enough for leave to be level going into the day.
List of endorsements in the Scottish independence referendum, 2014
Against independence
Registered political parties
Britannica
Non-participant political parties
Britain First
British National Party
United Kingdom Independence Party
Politicians
David Coburn MEP
Nigel Farage MEP
George Galloway MP
The following organisations and individuals registered with the Electoral Commission as supporting a No vote.
Alistair McConnachie (Holocaust denier)
Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland
Can they?
Consider the fact that the working time directive which the post lauds in top of the "most expensive pieces of EU legislation" list as well... but apparently the EU has nothing to do with it!
"Totally - I much prefer Collins
Didn't de Valera do for Collins too?
"The EU has given and protected worker's rights more than British government would have done. "
I understand why the Left are generally in favour, but what happens if the EU lurches to the Right (like Hollande). And begin to pass Rightist Regulations and Directives? Would you demand a recount or a new referendum?
http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/1057843/#Comment_1057843
I totally disagree with your analysis of where labour should go and cannot get my head round your support for Corbyn, but I hope you accept that am not crass enough to deliberately make stuff up to make my points. I got this wrong and I am sorry.
The Peoples' consciousness has been awaken. With luck they will become more engaged and hold politicians to account more than previously.
It will do for the establishment what the gattinggate episode did for Pakistani Umpires
It's like having "The Tories Can't Win" back.
The EU cannot even stop French air traffic controllers from holding Europe to ransom, as they are going to do next weekend.
EU workers' rights go too far and are expensive and unnecessary; or
EU worker's rights add nothing as we do it ourselves.
By comparison although Hattie's comments about the EU being the sole source of workers' rights are disingenuous, at least the worker's rights = good is consistent.
So many conflicting viewpoints, ground-war reports, agendas and visceral passions inflamed.
"REMAINIACS know this, hence the ammoniac whiff of panic in their ranks."
Meanwhile in the real world, Betfair has 'Leave' on 5.1/5.2. In a two horse race this is not even close...
Iain Martin @iainmartin1 39m39 minutes ago
Well done all involved. Brexit campaign eclipsed by Tory leadership contest and plot to remove the PM. Brilliant strategy. Genius.
Sunder Katwala @sundersays 20m20 minutes ago
'Stop Ze German advance' xenophobia on M40 from overenthusiastic Outers. unauthorised, by "dummies" say @vote_leave
How do you see the ongoing rolling French strikes influencing the referendum? Does it have any real impact or is it just noise?
Why should Leave need to do anything? They aren't HMG. They're a coalition of viewpoints that believes we're better off out. I'm not expecting LabourLeave to do so, anymore than GrassrootsOut.