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The capacity of the Corbynistas to wander ever deeper into an unelectable hard-left wilderness knows no bounds.TheScreamingEagles said:Via Sam Coates of The Times
Controversial Corbyn aide Andrew Fisher set to be appointed Labour's "executive director of policy" imminently. Replacing Neale Coleman
Corbyn's office clearly emboldened by recent events. Fisher is from hard left PCS, embroiled in row over Class War party support....
... Labour MPs likely to be unhappy at Fisher's appointment.
Andrew Fisher's new role likely to be even bigger than this - de facto deputy chief of staff too.0 -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/25/exclusive-donald-trump-signed-off-deal-designed-to-deprive-us-of/
Not sure we needed the dramatic music / video as glorified powerpoint....0 -
People here may not believe the nation state is to be given up. But the EU does think that ultimately it should supercede the constituent nation states. And if we remain I think that we have to accept that that is the direction of travel.EPG said:
Well... I don't think most people believe the nation state is to be given up. Perhaps not even most REMAIN voters. Yet REMAIN is winning, apparently.Cyclefree said:I think the word "sovereignty" is being used as a shorthand for something else.
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And as I have said before it misses the point of the EU.
Even within the EU, the state remains the primary and practically the only unit of relevance for political discussion. States participate in the council and nominate commissioners; voters choose from among their national parties as their parliamentary representatives, with the geographical unit representation in all cases at the state or sub-state regional level.
(Needless to say the UK is not a nation state. It is a merger of several nations, woven together mainly by force of arms. Nothing odd about that latter point even among nation states - France a good example. But the UK was not an organic outgrowth of an ancient people from Enniskillen to Lowestoft all speaking the same language. And it has been a parliamentary democracy for less than a hundred years; before that, it was under a limited system of regional representation, in which most adults did not participate.)
Britain has been a parliamentary democracy for considerably longer than pretty much every other state within the EU. That is a point of significant difference. It is a point which is not given enough weight, IMO, by those on the Remain side and, more significantly, by those in positions of power in much of the rest of the EU.
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Texas, uniquely, does have the right to secede. But as you say it is a theoretical rather than practical right.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, there's a difference of course between being theoretically sovereign and practically sovereign: theoretically sovereign means there is a legal way to do it, but practically it's extremely difficult - i.e. you can make the cost and difficulty threshold of secession so high that it's a risky path to take. Practically sovereign means you can basically walk away anytime with no serious political or economic consequences.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Just as Texas is.....Casino_Royale said:
Thanks Topping.TOPPING said:
Excellent piece @CRCasino_Royale said:
Don't mention it.dr_spyn said:@Casino_Royale Thanks
You are aware of most of my views so I won't rehearse them here. Two points only (and then sadly I must away):
1. Walking down the road (I actually hear the distant sound of the massed bands of the Household Division from where I sit) it doesn't feel as though the UK is not sovereign.
2. I thought the five presidents report was a vision for EZ countries only.
But great piece. VL should have used it.
(1) The UK is still *ultimately* sovereign.
The constitution of the USA does not permit a state to leave. It is a perpetual and indissoluble union, unless all other states agree for it to secede.
The equivalent constitution of the EU does recognise this right through Article 50 in TFEU (Lisbon) but this also isn't particularly practical: 2 years notice, being excluded from the exit negotiations, and the QMV votes on it, and it also threatens consequences if we do leave, so that makes it scary and hard to guarantee a decent exit deal.
We are, of course, already seeing how this is being exploited by the Remain campaign. So I think the UK is somewhere in between.
However, we can quit if we really want to (and there is a legal route to do so) and our parliament can repeal the European Communities Act as well.
But we'd have to vote for it first.0 -
Gisela Stuart (as always) impressive on C4News earlier. She's the one Brexiteer who could sway my vote - shame about the rest of them.0
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Perhaps when it comes down to it, the person ultimately responsible for our current predicament is Charles de Gaulle. If we'd been able to join when we first wanted to, as an answer to the realisation of our position post-Suez, we wouldn't have had such a long-standing ambivalence to the whole project.Casino_Royale said:On your final paragraph, I think a large part of the nation is *still* living in the post-Suez and post-imperial shadow, despite that starting to move out of living memory and into the history books now.
Bizarre.0 -
Yes, that's true. I meant from the perspective of the politics of the moment, really.williamglenn said:
I think we're clearly in the latter camp rather than somewhere in between. Whatever arguments the government is using in the referendum campaign, if they were behind Leave, they could execute a withdrawal without the majority of the negative consequences they're threatening now.Casino_Royale said:We are, of course, already seeing how this is being exploited by the Remain campaign. So I think the UK is somewhere in between.
However, we can quit if we really want to (and there is a legal route to do so) and our parliament can repeal the European Communities Act as well.
But we'd have to vote for it first.
The fear is being deliberately maximised through no-one showing what their true hands would be if the dice came up double-six.
If there was an informal position already on the table, and a willingness from the players that mattered to tango, then it would largely vanish.0 -
Arguably, our constitutional arrangements were the result of invasion - by the Dutch in the 17th century.williamglenn said:
Pinning that argument on the success of our constitutional arrangements rather than the good fortune of a stretch of water keeping us relatively safe from land invasions seems a bit tenuous.Cyclefree said:This seems to me to be one of the fundamental divides between the UK and much of Continental Europe. We have largely made a success of the nation state. So we don't see the need to abandon it. Much of Continental Europe did not make a success of nationhood and some countries made such a mess of it that parts of Europe will forever be stained with the blood of those who died as a result. So creating a new structure seems right to them in a way that it does not to the UK. You don't change if what you have works.
Even now we have an unresolved situation from the mishandled withdrawal from Ireland and a nationalist party dominates the politics north of the border.
Arguably where the EU has been successful is in imitating the British art of fudge and delay as a core governing principle.
It is also possible that one of the reasons we were able successfully to resist invasion or domination by Continental powers was as a result of a relatively strong and - within the limits of the time - legitimate government. When the forces of extremism and reaction and economic failure blew through Europe in the 20th century many democracies fell; ours did not. That is a testament to the strength of our democracy and not just to the existence of the Channel.0 -
They have N'Golo Kante, one of the best midfielders in the world.Jobabob said:
Varane is a big miss however.Jobabob said:
France are woefully under-ranked thanks to having played very few meaningful games in the last two years (simply because they have not been asked to qualify for the tournament, their being hosts). They are a superb side and it would be very French indeed, after all the horrors they have had to deal with in recent times, to go on to win the thing on a surge of national pride.Sunil_Prasannan said:
France FIFA ranking 21rcs1000 said:
Sadly the French team is quite good, and therefore they are unlikely to want to disrupt the tournamentPaul_Bedfordshire said:
Disruption of Euro 2016 by sundry strikers and rioters in France would do tbe job nicelyrcs1000 said:
Agreed, with a caveat.Casino_Royale said:
Leave at 5/1 or over is certainly value.Wanderer said:
Then again YouGov and ICM have had the race level within the last 48 hours.Jobabob said:
Leave have made no progress. It's a lock for Remain – most DKs will break for the status quo or just won't turn out. As most influencers (educational elite etc) are Remainers, that will crush Leave beyond the point of no return.foxinsoxuk said:
Betfair out to 6 now on Leave, and 55-60% Remain band now down to 3. Clearly people believe the phone polls in preference to online.GIN1138 said:
How can polls still be showing REMAIN with only a 4% lead given the onslaught the Establishment has unleashed on LEAVE?HYUFD said:Opinium has it 51% Remain 34% Leave in London, 60 40 excluding don't knows but only 44% Remain 40% Leave UK wide
Also, while from a betting perspective I have money on Leave, from a political perspective I want Remain to win and from that standpoint I find Cameron's low trust rating worrying. How can one interpret that except in a way that suggests his message is being rejected?
Leave is far from out of this imo.
We need something, a catalyst to move the Leave vote upwards. Perhaps it's the debate, perhaps a resurgence of the migrant crisis, but we need something. Otherwise, it's likely the clock will run down, and there'll be an unenthusiastic (but near certain) vote for Remain.
England FIFA ranking 10
http://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/ranking-table/men/index.html0 -
Does it? https://texassecede.com/faq.phpPaul_Bedfordshire said:
Texas, uniquely, does have the right to secede. But as you say it is a theoretical rather than practical right.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, there's a difference of course between being theoretically sovereign and practically sovereign: theoretically sovereign means there is a legal way to do it, but practically it's extremely difficult - i.e. you can make the cost and difficulty threshold of secession so high that it's a risky path to take. Practically sovereign means you can basically walk away anytime with no serious political or economic consequences.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Just as Texas is.....Casino_Royale said:
Thanks Topping.TOPPING said:
Excellent piece @CRCasino_Royale said:
Don't mention it.dr_spyn said:@Casino_Royale Thanks
You are aware of most of my views so I won't rehearse them here. Two points only (and then sadly I must away):
1. Walking down the road (I actually hear the distant sound of the massed bands of the Household Division from where I sit) it doesn't feel as though the UK is not sovereign.
2. I thought the five presidents report was a vision for EZ countries only.
But great piece. VL should have used it.
(1) The UK is still *ultimately* sovereign.
The constitution of the USA does not permit a state to leave. It is a perpetual and indissoluble union, unless all other states agree for it to secede.
The equivalent constitution of the EU does recognise this right through Article 50 in TFEU (Lisbon) but this also isn't particularly practical: 2 years notice, being excluded from the exit negotiations, and the QMV votes on it, and it also threatens consequences if we do leave, so that makes it scary and hard to guarantee a decent exit deal.
We are, of course, already seeing how this is being exploited by the Remain campaign. So I think the UK is somewhere in between.
However, we can quit if we really want to (and there is a legal route to do so) and our parliament can repeal the European Communities Act as well.
But we'd have to vote for it first.0 -
I don't actually agree with that.williamglenn said:
Perhaps when it comes down to it, the person ultimately responsible for our current predicament is Charles de Gaulle. If we'd been able to join when we first wanted to, as an answer to the realisation of our position post-Suez, we wouldn't have had such a long-standing ambivalence to the whole project.Casino_Royale said:On your final paragraph, I think a large part of the nation is *still* living in the post-Suez and post-imperial shadow, despite that starting to move out of living memory and into the history books now.
Bizarre.0 -
And Pogba. Not too shabby...foxinsoxuk said:
They have N'Golo Kante, one of the best midfielders in the world.Jobabob said:
Varane is a big miss however.Jobabob said:
France are woefully under-ranked thanks to having played very few meaningful games in the last two years (simply because they have not been asked to qualify for the tournament, their being hosts). They are a superb side and it would be very French indeed, after all the horrors they have had to deal with in recent times, to go on to win the thing on a surge of national pride.Sunil_Prasannan said:
France FIFA ranking 21rcs1000 said:
Sadly the French team is quite good, and therefore they are unlikely to want to disrupt the tournamentPaul_Bedfordshire said:
Disruption of Euro 2016 by sundry strikers and rioters in France would do tbe job nicelyrcs1000 said:
Agreed, with a caveat.Casino_Royale said:
Leave at 5/1 or over is certainly value.Wanderer said:
Then again YouGov and ICM have had the race level within the last 48 hours.Jobabob said:
Leave have made no progress. It's a lock for Remain – most DKs will break for the status quo or just won't turn out. As most influencers (educational elite etc) are Remainers, that will crush Leave beyond the point of no return.foxinsoxuk said:
Betfair out to 6 now on Leave, and 55-60% Remain band now down to 3. Clearly people believe the phone polls in preference to online.GIN1138 said:
How can polls still be showing REMAIN with only a 4% lead given the onslaught the Establishment has unleashed on LEAVE?HYUFD said:Opinium has it 51% Remain 34% Leave in London, 60 40 excluding don't knows but only 44% Remain 40% Leave UK wide
Also, while from a betting perspective I have money on Leave, from a political perspective I want Remain to win and from that standpoint I find Cameron's low trust rating worrying. How can one interpret that except in a way that suggests his message is being rejected?
Leave is far from out of this imo.
We need something, a catalyst to move the Leave vote upwards. Perhaps it's the debate, perhaps a resurgence of the migrant crisis, but we need something. Otherwise, it's likely the clock will run down, and there'll be an unenthusiastic (but near certain) vote for Remain.
England FIFA ranking 10
http://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/ranking-table/men/index.html0 -
I think Britain's failure to get involved right at the start and shape it in its own image at a time when Britain had, post-WW2, immense moral authority was the big mistake. Imagine if we'd been in from the start and really taking the lead.williamglenn said:
Perhaps when it comes down to it, the person ultimately responsible for our current predicament is Charles de Gaulle. If we'd been able to join when we first wanted to, as an answer to the realisation of our position post-Suez, we wouldn't have had such a long-standing ambivalence to the whole project.Casino_Royale said:On your final paragraph, I think a large part of the nation is *still* living in the post-Suez and post-imperial shadow, despite that starting to move out of living memory and into the history books now.
Bizarre.
I can understand why the decision was taken. But on reflection it was the wrong decision. Once we'd stayed out, we lost the chance to shape it, we were seen by others as a mix of Johnny-come-latelys and supplicants and as a result we've ended up in something with which we have never felt comfortable.
De Gaulle was an arrogant so-and-so who, in vetoing Britain's entry, patronised the country which gave him a home and which shed much blood liberating his country by saying that it had not done enough to become more like the rest of Europe, a Europe which had so disgraced the civilisation it had brought to the world. If there was one country in Europe in the late 1950's which could hold its head high, it was Britain. For France - barely 15 years after Vichy (a stain on French history that De Gaulle simply ignored) - to presume to lecture Britain was really de trop.
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Grim Reaper is back and taken the Stig at the age of just 52....
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/health/racing-car-driver-james-bond-113854440 -
Corrected for you ;-)Plato_Says said:Belgium policeFrench SAS arrest four terror suspects 'who were plotting fresh attacks' https://t.co/PlU6yZEAwU https://t.co/mQMEih0gUS0 -
Guardian aren't happy with BBC eating their market and poaching their staff
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/guardian-campaign-to-rein-in-the-bbc-zntzvhcbp0 -
I'm on tenter hooks to see how excited you get when Trump's polling gets his convention bounce.RodCrosby said:5/20-5/22
2016 North Carolina President
Trump 43% Clinton 41%
PPP
Moving back to the GOP column (it'll actually go to TCTC in my sheet)
If Trump wins just 4 more states than Romney, he's in. FL, PA, NV, CO...0 -
The UK is a country where most people think the Empire was an unalloyed good thing, something to be proud of.Cyclefree said:
If there was one country in Europe in the late 1950's which could hold its head high, it was Britain. For France - barely 15 years after Vichy (a stain on French history that De Gaulle simply ignored) - to presume to lecture Britain was really de trop.
Hardly odd that countries brush aside their embarrassing moments, if they possibly can. Even the Austrians do it.0 -
The joint Labour Leave/UKIP event I've just watched was pretty impressive. Bolton audience of several hundred and packed - another 650 were watching the livestream. Hoey was on form in her usual understated way.ThomasNashe said:Gisela Stuart (as always) impressive on C4News earlier. She's the one Brexiteer who could sway my vote - shame about the rest of them.
They're off to Newcastle tomorrow - if the reception is anything like this, I'm very encouraged. This groundwar event has really impressed me.0 -
Hopefully one day London holds a referendum on whether or not to leave England, and votes out.
The rest of the country would rejoice.
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I am always reminded of the the late Asa Briggs talking about the Year of Revolutions 1848. He said that whilst the rest of Europe was in the throws of revolution the British Chartists organised a large picnic in Hyde Park. One might reasonably claim that as a tactic for forcing change it was actually more successful then the more violent European approaches.Cyclefree said:
Arguably, our constitutional arrangements were the result of invasion - by the Dutch in the 17th century.williamglenn said:
Pinning that argument on the success of our constitutional arrangements rather than the good fortune of a stretch of water keeping us relatively safe from land invasions seems a bit tenuous.Cyclefree said:This seems to me to be one of the fundamental divides between the UK and much of Continental Europe. We have largely made a success of the nation state. So we don't see the need to abandon it. Much of Continental Europe did not make a success of nationhood and some countries made such a mess of it that parts of Europe will forever be stained with the blood of those who died as a result. So creating a new structure seems right to them in a way that it does not to the UK. You don't change if what you have works.
Even now we have an unresolved situation from the mishandled withdrawal from Ireland and a nationalist party dominates the politics north of the border.
Arguably where the EU has been successful is in imitating the British art of fudge and delay as a core governing principle.
It is also possible that one of the reasons we were able successfully to resist invasion or domination by Continental powers was as a result of a relatively strong and - within the limits of the time - legitimate government. When the forces of extremism and reaction and economic failure blew through Europe in the 20th century many democracies fell; ours did not. That is a testament to the strength of our democracy and not just to the existence of the Channel.
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Brexit Tory MPs turn on George Osborne over ‘pro-EU propaganda’
Ministers have been accused of trying to “muzzle” backbenchers as Brexit-backing Tory MPs lined up to condemn the Government’s behaviour in the EU referendum.
https://www.politicshome.com/news/europe/eu-policy-agenda/brexit/news/75396/brexit-tory-mps-turn-george-osborne-over-‘pro-eu0 -
Fair comment Mrs. Free. However, I think you are overlooking that in the late forties and early fifties when the foundations of what is now the Eu were being laid the Uk was very much more of a command economy state than we have since become. Indeed the Civil Service laughed at West Germany's free enterprise culture - well it couldn't work, could it. So if we had, as you suggest, got involved at the beginning and led it in our own image then the results might have been even worse.Cyclefree said:
I think Britain's failure to get involved right at the start and shape it in its own image at a time when Britain had, post-WW2, immense moral authority was the big mistake. Imagine if we'd been in from the start and really taking the lead.williamglenn said:
Perhaps when it comes down to it, the person ultimately responsible for our current predicament is Charles de Gaulle. If we'd been able to join when we first wanted to, as an answer to the realisation of our position post-Suez, we wouldn't have had such a long-standing ambivalence to the whole project.Casino_Royale said:On your final paragraph, I think a large part of the nation is *still* living in the post-Suez and post-imperial shadow, despite that starting to move out of living memory and into the history books now.
Bizarre.
I can understand why the decision was taken. But on reflection it was the wrong decision. Once we'd stayed out, we lost the chance to shape it, we were seen by others as a mix of Johnny-come-latelys and supplicants and as a result we've ended up in something with which we have never felt comfortable.
De Gaulle was an arrogant so-and-so who, in vetoing Britain's entry, patronised the country which gave him a home and which shed much blood liberating his country by saying that it had not done enough to become more like the rest of Europe, a Europe which had so disgraced the civilisation it had brought to the world. If there was one country in Europe in the late 1950's which could hold its head high, it was Britain. For France - barely 15 years after Vichy (a stain on French history that De Gaulle simply ignored) - to presume to lecture Britain was really de trop.0 -
NEW THREAD NEW THREAD
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There are no 'non-VAT items'. Everything is subject to VAT. It is just that there are some items which are zero-rated. But they still get included in the VAT rate list.eek said:
Why would it be on a list of VATable items when the entire point was its now a none VAT product.Plato_Says said:Twitter saying tampon tax abolition not included in new VAT rate list from EU.
Anyone know if this is true?0 -
France have dropped some 6-10 places from where they would normally be because as host country as they haven't had any high scoring Euro 2016 qualifiers to play - the reverse of the effect which helped take Wales up to their freakishly high position for a season ( after they stopped playing low value friendlies).Sunil_Prasannan said:
France FIFA ranking 21rcs1000 said:
Sadly the French team is quite good, and therefore they are unlikely to want to disrupt the tournamentPaul_Bedfordshire said:
Disruption of Euro 2016 by sundry strikers and rioters in France would do tbe job nicelyrcs1000 said:
Agreed, with a caveat.Casino_Royale said:
Leave at 5/1 or over is certainly value.Wanderer said:
Then again YouGov and ICM have had the race level within the last 48 hours.Jobabob said:
Leave have made no progress. It's a lock for Remain – most DKs will break for the status quo or just won't turn out. As most influencers (educational elite etc) are Remainers, that will crush Leave beyond the point of no return.foxinsoxuk said:
Betfair out to 6 now on Leave, and 55-60% Remain band now down to 3. Clearly people believe the phone polls in preference to online.GIN1138 said:
How can polls still be showing REMAIN with only a 4% lead given the onslaught the Establishment has unleashed on LEAVE?HYUFD said:Opinium has it 51% Remain 34% Leave in London, 60 40 excluding don't knows but only 44% Remain 40% Leave UK wide
Also, while from a betting perspective I have money on Leave, from a political perspective I want Remain to win and from that standpoint I find Cameron's low trust rating worrying. How can one interpret that except in a way that suggests his message is being rejected?
Leave is far from out of this imo.
We need something, a catalyst to move the Leave vote upwards. Perhaps it's the debate, perhaps a resurgence of the migrant crisis, but we need something. Otherwise, it's likely the clock will run down, and there'll be an unenthusiastic (but near certain) vote for Remain.
England FIFA ranking 10
http://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/ranking-table/men/index.html0
This discussion has been closed.