politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » After nearly a week without polls the sentiment on Betfair
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I don't know whether you don't get it, or don't want to, but the 'dull competence' of these powerful people you so admire doesn't exist.AlastairMeeks said:
Not, potentially, for the next four years. Why should I risk giving Liam Fox, Iain Duncan Smith or Jacob Rees-Mogg more power?ThreeQuidder said:
Yes it is: judging an argument by some of the other beliefs of some of the people making it is just about the worst logical fallacy in the book.AlastairMeeks said:
Not at all.ThreeQuidder said:
Which is a logical fallacy.AlastairMeeks said:
Because Option 3 is being propounded by people who think that Germany is establishing a Fourth Reich.ThreeQuidder said:
It's been clearly demonstrated that we are unable to deflect the EU from its centralising/federaling agenda.Scott_P said:
The curious thing about that argument, if you agree with it, is that Boris is proposing that instead of standing up to the Germans like Churchill we run away and hide.Plato_Says said:I wouldn't normally cite Heffer, however he's making the Boris point too. DT clearly thinks this is a winner with their readers.
It's bizarre
Given that we're voting in the full knowledge of this fact, there are three options:
(1) Vote to Remain, and carry on as we have been, carping about and/or resisting centralisation in (as it will be seen in other EU capitals) direct contradiction to the public vote, thus frustrating and irritating other EU leaders;
(2) Vote to Remain and sign up to the agenda, joining Schengen and the Euro as soon as possible and certainly within 5 years;
(3) Vote to Leave.
I can't understand why so many people think option 1 is the best.
It's inevitable that after a Leave vote the government would be controlled by the British people through the medium of parliamentary elections, just like now. And I trust the British people on the whole to make sensible decisions in parliamentary elections.AlastairMeeks said:Since it would be inevitable after a Leave vote that the government would be controlled by Leavers
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Mr. Pulpstar, wasn't Dr. Foxinsox's bet 5000/1?
I tipped the Verstappen bet here, after a bit of uming and ahing. Was only available for a short time, maybe quarter of an hour.
Mr. HYUFD, well, that adds to my point, but I was actually referring to the EU army.0 -
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He should do - it was a foolish promise to make & Cameron deserves to have it thrown back at him.blackburn63 said:
I wonder if Nigel will use that on ITV?VapidBilge said:
“I believe that will mean net migration to this country will be in the order of tens of thousands each year, not the hundreds of thousands every year that we have seen over the last decade. Britain will always be open to the best and brightest from around the world and those fleeing persecution. But with us, our borders will be under control and immigration will be at levels our country can manage. No ifs. No buts. That’s a promise we made to the British people, and it’s a promise we are keeping.”SouthamObserver said:
But, but, but ... Hitlerfoxinsoxuk said:
That would be the same Boris leading the Leave campaign who described himself eight months ago as "basically pro immigration" and calling for an illegal immigrant amnesty?SouthamObserver said:
Yep, Boris is so eaten up with concern about this issue that he has never taken any steps as either an MP or as London mayor to do anything about it.ydoethur said:
Consistency was never his long suit though was it? I seem to remember he used to talk a lot about the importance of family life and supporting marriage as well...SouthamObserver said:
It's great to see that Boris has suddenly discovered the earnings gap. But it's unclear how that squares with his oft-stated belief that very rich people should be paying even less tax than they do now.Paul_Bedfordshire said:You can wheel in as many of the great and good as you like but in a world where CEOs trough salaries 150* that of their employees (hat tip Boris) all the likes of Lagarde, Carney and Obama are seen as is mill owners trying to feed propaganda to further they and their Oligarchies nests.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3264239/Let-long-term-illegals-stay-UK-says-Boris-London-mayor-believes-immigrants-12-years-granted-amnesty.html
Of course the prevailing wind was different that day...
Of course, like many Leavers on here, eight months ago Boris was a fully signed up supporter og government fiscal and economic policies predicated on EU membership and large scale immigration.0 -
I knew I was young for my age! ;-pPlato_Says said:0 -
You really think inviting in refugees is equivalent to Hitler's ambitions?MarqueeMark said:Which number Reich do you wish to ascribe that attitude to?
Wow.
I knew some Brexiteers were barking, but that's seems excessive0 -
@ThreeQuidder Those people will get more influence by being part of the cabal that will take over the direction of this government. It's not complicated.
Will they get absolute power? No, thank goodness. But they would get far too much for my liking.
I made it clear some time ago that I would not be voting Leave because it was apparent that Leave was going to be dominated by people whose views I had no sympathy with whatsoever. And so it has proved.0 -
Galloway winning Bradford was 250/1AlastairMeeks said:A 250/1 winner. That must be a PB record. Congratulations.
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An article destined to piss off Zoomers and Brexiteers both. Ruth Davidson in The Times
There are two key lessons to draw between the two votes. The first is what might be described as the certainty test. In the independence referendum, the SNP was at its happiest when condemning the institutions of the UK. It was at its weakest when trying to explain how exactly it intended to replace them. In short, it didn’t have a clue.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9391d2d0-1adf-11e6-bf22-78061c6f2b5c
I do not accuse my colleagues in the Out campaign of matching Alex Salmond’s egregious fantasy economics. However, there are similarities. Outers offer trenchant criticisms of the status quo. Less persuasive are the arguments for showing how Brexit would be better, or even an agreed position of what it might look like.0 -
I see the extra EU "clout" in trade negotiations is actually a millstone round our necks:
http://novinite.com/articles/174486/Bulgaria,+Romania+'Could+Veto+EU-Canada+Free+Trade+Deal'0 -
Dearie me.shiney2 said:CarlottaVance said:
'will lead to us having to ditch the pound sterling our entire common law judicial system and our borders for the euro, bench trials and Schengen'shiney2 said:Has everybody seen this?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0pwXLtvt2w&feature=youtu.be
Its very good!
In a word, 'piffle' - directly contradicted by the Lisbon Treaty.....
Dearie me. You just keep misfiring.
First you say the claims aren't in the video.
Then you say they're in the Treaty of Lisbon, but can't quote the article.
Then its pointed out the Treaty of Lisbon directly contradicts the claims.
Now it's 'bad things will happen' bluster bluster mutter mutter fudge....
In a word....piffle
Heck, even the video says so......
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What has proved true is that your illogical decision has caused you to be increasingly swivel-eyed, both above and below the line.AlastairMeeks said:@ThreeQuidder Those people will get more influence by being part of the cabal that will take over the direction of this government. It's not complicated.
Will they get absolute power? No, thank goodness. But they would get far too much for my liking.
I made it clear some time ago that I would not be voting Leave because it was apparent that Leave was going to be dominated by people whose views I had no sympathy with whatsoever. And so it has proved.
A "cabal"? "Taking over the direction of the government"? Jesus wept.0 -
At least Mr Meeks left the 'H-word' out of it......ThreeQuidder said:
A "cabal"? "Taking over the direction of the government"? Jesus wept.AlastairMeeks said:@ThreeQuidder Those people will get more influence by being part of the cabal that will take over the direction of this government. It's not complicated.
Will they get absolute power? No, thank goodness. But they would get far too much for my liking.
I made it clear some time ago that I would not be voting Leave because it was apparent that Leave was going to be dominated by people whose views I had no sympathy with whatsoever. And so it has proved.0 -
Given how often the Great & Good have been wrong on the ERM, Euro, 2008 crash, forecasting in general - it'd be refreshing to understand why Remainers are so keen to believe them now.
Or are they just a fig-leaf for their own position?0 -
Cameron is throwing the kitchen sink at this.Plato_Says said:More complete twaddle from Remain
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/15/three-million-eu-citizens-in-the-uk-could-be-deported-if-britons/
He must belief his own rhetoric.
I think he is writing his own legacy, in that he now does not care as much about his own party but becoming an historical prime minister of note.
He will bow out undefeated in general elections and securing EU membership.
In recent times that puts him in the Blair, Wilson, Group and above Brown, Eden, Douglas -Home, Heath, Callaghan, Major.0 -
@ThreeQuidder After a Leave vote do you expect David Cameron to carry on as before? Far more likely, he will resign and be replaced, in all likelihood by a prominent Leaver. That Leaver will then appoint his pals to the key positions.
If David Cameron does cling to office, he will be surrounded, perforce, by prominent Leavers, who will then dictate central aspects of government policy on what will then become the all-consuming topic of the next few years.
Either way we can look forward to a government dominated by headbangers who cheerfully liken the EU to a Fourth Reich.0 -
That chart tells me that Brexit should hope sincerely that June 23rd is a rainy day.0
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Humility? Well, nobody's ever accused him of that...CarlottaVance said:
At least Mr Meeks left the 'H-word' out of it......ThreeQuidder said:
A "cabal"? "Taking over the direction of the government"? Jesus wept.AlastairMeeks said:@ThreeQuidder Those people will get more influence by being part of the cabal that will take over the direction of this government. It's not complicated.
Will they get absolute power? No, thank goodness. But they would get far too much for my liking.
I made it clear some time ago that I would not be voting Leave because it was apparent that Leave was going to be dominated by people whose views I had no sympathy with whatsoever. And so it has proved.0 -
He's throwing both of EdM's at it too.Yorkcity said:
Cameron is throwing the kitchen sink at this.Plato_Says said:More complete twaddle from Remain
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/15/three-million-eu-citizens-in-the-uk-could-be-deported-if-britons/
He must belief his own rhetoric.
I think he is writing his own legacy, in that he now does not care as much about his own party but becoming an historical prime minister of note.
He will bow out undefeated in general elections and securing EU membership.
In recent times that puts him in the Blair, Wilson, Group and above Brown, Eden, Douglas -Home, Heath, Callaghan, Major.0 -
Rather than a cabal, it would presumably be a LIMB:
Liam
Iain
Michael
Boris0 -
@PeterMannionMP: 300 business people, incl
• somebody you've never heard of;
• someone who used to be somebody you've never heard of;
sign VoteLeave letter.
@PeterMannionMP: ..and all signatories 'in a personal capacity' because many companies they work do not back #Leave. #StrongerIn0 -
Yes...3 million expulsions, £4300 losses per household, World War III...Yorkcity said:
Cameron is throwing the kitchen sink at this.Plato_Says said:More complete twaddle from Remain
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/15/three-million-eu-citizens-in-the-uk-could-be-deported-if-britons/
He must belief his own rhetoric.
I think he is writing his own legacy, in that he now does not care as much about his own party but becoming an historical prime minister of note.
He will bow out undefeated in general elections and securing EU membership.
In recent times that puts him in the Blair, Wilson, Group and above Brown, Eden, Douglas -Home, Heath, Callaghan, Major.
...you might well refer to anyone coming out with this kind of hysterical rhetoric as 'baying at the moon'.
Definitely not the dull competence we want from our leaders.0 -
Oregon - DHM Research/Fox 12
Clinton 48 .. Sanders 33 - Typical Turnout Model
Clinton 45 .. Sanders 38 - High Turnout Model
http://res.cloudinary.com/bdy4ger4/image/upload/v1463018600/OPBFoxOregonDemocraticPrimaryTypicalTurnoutModel_vwg245.pdf0 -
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He certainly should, and if he can't it's his own fault. Though it does look increasingly like he can't irrespective of the result of the referendum.AlastairMeeks said:@ThreeQuidder After a Leave vote do you expect David Cameron to carry on as before?
He'll be replaced by either Boris, Gove, May or Osborne (and probably not Osborne). That's equally true irrespective of the result of the referendum.AlastairMeeks said:Far more likely, he will resign and be replaced, in all likelihood by a prominent Leaver.
If they want to win the next election, they'll have a balanced cabinet, moving out a few people who are only their because of their loyalty to Cameron and/or Osborne.AlastairMeeks said:That Leaver will then appoint his pals to the key positions.
No, he'll be surrounded by most of the same people. Boris will get an increased role, but that's going to happen anyway,.AlastairMeeks said:If David Cameron does cling to office, he will be surrounded, perforce, by prominent Leavers
Keeping Corbyn and McDonnell away from Downing Street.AlastairMeeks said:who will then dictate central aspects of government policy on what will then become the all-consuming topic of the next few years.
This referendum will settle it - either we Leave or we Remain. What we won't do is have another referendum any time soon, probably not in my lifetime unless the pro-EUers grow a pair and actually openly advocate for federalism.
Untrue, as I have just demonstrated.AlastairMeeks said:Either way we can look forward to a government dominated by headbangers who cheerfully liken the EU to a Fourth Reich.
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ThreeQuidder said:
He certainly should, and if he can't it's his own fault. Though it does look increasingly like he can't irrespective of the result of the referendum.AlastairMeeks said:@ThreeQuidder After a Leave vote do you expect David Cameron to carry on as before?
He'll be replaced by either Boris, Gove, May or Osborne (and probably not Osborne). That's equally true irrespective of the result of the referendum.AlastairMeeks said:Far more likely, he will resign and be replaced, in all likelihood by a prominent Leaver.
If they want to win the next election, they'll have a balanced cabinet, moving out a few people who are only their because of their loyalty to Cameron and/or Osborne.AlastairMeeks said:That Leaver will then appoint his pals to the key positions.
No he will be replaced by Philip HammondAlastairMeeks said:If David Cameron does cling to office, he will be surrounded, perforce, by prominent Leavers
No, he'll be surrounded by most of the same people. Boris will get an increased role, but that's going to happen anyway,.
Keeping Corbyn and McDonnell away from Downing Street.AlastairMeeks said:who will then dictate central aspects of government policy on what will then become the all-consuming topic of the next few years.
This referendum will settle it - either we Leave or we Remain. What we won't do is have another referendum any time soon, probably not in my lifetime unless the pro-EUers grow a pair and actually openly advocate for federalism.
Untrue, as I have just demonstrated.AlastairMeeks said:Either way we can look forward to a government dominated by headbangers who cheerfully liken the EU to a Fourth Reich.
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Given Leave is given a lot more credit for being truthful - the ever diminishing returns HMG can wring out of such absurd scaremongering is obvious. And yet they continue to damage themselves with the active encouragement of Number 10. This stuff is so off the charts compared to even the silliest GE campaigning.runnymede said:
Yes...3 million expulsions, £4300 losses per household, World War III...Yorkcity said:
Cameron is throwing the kitchen sink at this.Plato_Says said:More complete twaddle from Remain
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/15/three-million-eu-citizens-in-the-uk-could-be-deported-if-britons/
He must belief his own rhetoric.
I think he is writing his own legacy, in that he now does not care as much about his own party but becoming an historical prime minister of note.
He will bow out undefeated in general elections and securing EU membership.
In recent times that puts him in the Blair, Wilson, Group and above Brown, Eden, Douglas -Home, Heath, Callaghan, Major.
...you might well refer to anyone coming out with this kind of hysterical rhetoric as 'baying at the moon'.
Definitely not the dull competence we want from our leaders.
My WTF needs recalibrating.0 -
@ThreeQuidder I simply disagree with your analysis. The idea that the future of government is going to be the same whether Remain or Leave wins is one I find wholly fanciful. If Leave win, the loonies are going to get much more power.
And trying to stop that is far more important to me than the referendum itself.0 -
Perhaps when you have finished blustering you could answer CV's question? I won't be holding my breathshiney2 said:
Its an eu competency - you should learn about your subject.CarlottaVance said:
When it comes to 'making stuff up' and 'ignoring evidence' I willingly concede your superiority....shiney2 said:
You aren't very good at this are you?CarlottaVance said:
You are making things up - the EU leaders didn't insist Papendreou be fired - as you claimed - the Greeks did that themselves.shiney2 said:CarlottaVance said:
On 31 October, Papandreou announced his government's plans to hold a referendum on the acceptance of the terms of a eurozone bailout deal. The referendum was to be held in December 2011 or January 2012. However, following the insistence of EU leaders at the G20 summit in Cannes that the referendum should be on Greece's continued membership of the eurozone, and severe criticism of such a referendum by Greek Finance Minister Venizelos and within parliament, Papandreou scrapped the plan on 3 November.shiney2 said:Papandreou
On 5 November, his government only narrowly won a confidence vote in parliament and opposition leader Antonis Samaras called for immediate elections. The next day Papandreou met with opposition leaders trying to reach an agreement on the formation of an interim national unity government. However, Samaras gave in only after Papandreou agreed to step aside, allowing the EU bailout to proceed and paving the way for elections on 19 February 2012. Both the Communist Party (KKE) and the leftist SYRIZA coalition had refused Papandreou's invitation to join talks on a new unity government.
After several days of intense negotiations, the two major parties along with the Popular Orthodox Rally agreed to form a grand coalition headed by former Vice President of the European Central Bank Lucas Papademos. On 10 November, George Papandreou formally resigned as Prime Minister of Greece. The new coalition cabinet and Prime Minister Lucas Papademos were formally sworn in on 11 November 2011.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Papandreou#Called-off_referendum_and_stepping_aside
Looks like 'Greek domestic politics' to me......
"following the insistence of EU leaders "
.
Piffle.....0 -
On military matters at least the EU needs to come together and sort out problems in its backyard e.g. BosniaMorris_Dancer said:Mr. Pulpstar, wasn't Dr. Foxinsox's bet 5000/1?
I tipped the Verstappen bet here, after a bit of uming and ahing. Was only available for a short time, maybe quarter of an hour.
Mr. HYUFD, well, that adds to my point, but I was actually referring to the EU army.0 -
Interesting, if I were to use you as a weather vane I'd be fearing for the PMCarlottaVance said:
He should do - it was a foolish promise to make & Cameron deserves to have it thrown back at him.blackburn63 said:
I wonder if Nigel will use that on ITV?VapidBilge said:
“I believe that will mean net migration to this country will be in the order of tens of thousands each year, not the hundreds of thousands every year that we have seen over the last decade. Britain will always be open to the best and brightest from around the world and those fleeing persecution. But with us, our borders will be under control and immigration will be at levels our country can manage. No ifs. No buts. That’s a promise we made to the British people, and it’s a promise we are keeping.”SouthamObserver said:
But, but, but ... Hitlerfoxinsoxuk said:
That would be the same Boris leading the Leave campaign who described himself eight months ago as "basically pro immigration" and calling for an illegal immigrant amnesty?SouthamObserver said:
Yep, Boris is so eaten up with concern about this issue that he has never taken any steps as either an MP or as London mayor to do anything about it.ydoethur said:
Consistency was never his long suit though was it? I seem to remember he used to talk a lot about the importance of family life and supporting marriage as well...SouthamObserver said:
It's great to see that Boris has suddenly discovered the earnings gap. But it's unclear how that squares with his oft-stated belief that very rich people should be paying even less tax than they do now.Paul_Bedfordshire said:You can wheel in as many of the great and good as you like but in a world where CEOs trough salaries 150* that of their employees (hat tip Boris) all the likes of Lagarde, Carney and Obama are seen as is mill owners trying to feed propaganda to further they and their Oligarchies nests.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3264239/Let-long-term-illegals-stay-UK-says-Boris-London-mayor-believes-immigrants-12-years-granted-amnesty.html
Of course the prevailing wind was different that day...
Of course, like many Leavers on here, eight months ago Boris was a fully signed up supporter og government fiscal and economic policies predicated on EU membership and large scale immigration.0 -
Why? The candidates to replace Cameron will be the same - the ambitious Tory MPs. The electorate will be the same - the Tory membership. And the check on their power will be the same - the small majority and the Lords.AlastairMeeks said:@ThreeQuidder I simply disagree with your analysis. The idea that the future of government is going to be the same whether Remain or Leave wins is one I find wholly fanciful.
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They are grateful that people are attempting to intellectualise their own weak position. If you ask a Remainer WHY they believe so strongly in the EU they rarely, if ever, give you a coherent answer.Plato_Says said:Given how often the Great & Good have been wrong on the ERM, Euro, 2008 crash, forecasting in general - it'd be refreshing to understand why Remainers are so keen to believe them now.
Or are they just a fig-leaf for their own position?
Take Meeks, the self appointed sage of PB, his overriding reason for Remaining is that people like me call him names. He was undecided for ages, if the economic argument was so compelling why the hesitancy?0 -
Never mind, Mr Meeks. Looking at the chart of Brexit-converters, it appears it's only a matter of time before you come to your senses.
Peak age for the Remainers is seven.0 -
I agree Plato .Plato_Says said:
He's throwing both of EdM's at it too.Yorkcity said:
Cameron is throwing the kitchen sink at this.Plato_Says said:More complete twaddle from Remain
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/15/three-million-eu-citizens-in-the-uk-could-be-deported-if-britons/
He must belief his own rhetoric.
I think he is writing his own legacy, in that he now does not care as much about his own party but becoming an historical prime minister of note.
He will bow out undefeated in general elections and securing EU membership.
In recent times that puts him in the Blair, Wilson, Group and above Brown, Eden, Douglas -Home, Heath, Callaghan, Major.
He certainly has not followed the Harold Wilson rule book in the 75 referendum.
Wilson did not take the lead as Cameron has.
Cameron owns the result what ever it is.0 -
Quite - it's the most bizarre assertion. Cameron is now damaged goods - he's not the gold-plated asset he was, and was standing down in any event. I can't think of any Tory who wants Osborne - so the mantle will go to an established big name as it always would.ThreeQuidder said:
Why? The candidates to replace Cameron will be the same - the ambitious Tory MPs. The electorate will be the same - the Tory membership. And the check on their power will be the same - the small majority and the Lords.AlastairMeeks said:@ThreeQuidder I simply disagree with your analysis. The idea that the future of government is going to be the same whether Remain or Leave wins is one I find wholly fanciful.
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Keep refusing to address the German over-riding of democracy then. After all, what is democracy to the EU, but some trifling inconvenience...Scott_P said:
You really think inviting in refugees is equivalent to Hitler's ambitions?MarqueeMark said:Which number Reich do you wish to ascribe that attitude to?
Wow.
I knew some Brexiteers were barking, but that's seems excessive0 -
@ThreeQuidder If Leave win, the big question of the next few years is going to be the terms of disengagement from the EU. That inevitably is going to need to be led by those who can credibly speak for those who voted for that outcome. It is fanciful to imagine that those who voted for Leave are not going to be in the ascendant in those circumstances.
Unlike Cincinnatus, the Leave politicians are not going to return to their funny farms. The opposite - the lunatics are going to take over the asylum.0 -
What should be most telling about the Remain campaign is that it isn't actually campaigning FOR the EU, the aims of the founders or any ideal of a modern superstate in Europe.
That makes remain as deceitful a campaign as the main Leave campaign with their daft £350m claim .0 -
I suppose we couldn’t have an unfortunate juxtaposition of events; a Leave vote and 25 or so Tories being at least temporarily unseated by the Electoral Commission.0
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Plato_Says said:
That chart should terrify the Remainers.0 -
Just 3000/1 £1 ewMorris_Dancer said:Mr. Pulpstar, wasn't Dr. Foxinsox's bet 5000/1?
I tipped the Verstappen bet here, after a bit of uming and ahing. Was only available for a short time, maybe quarter of an hour.
Mr. HYUFD, well, that adds to my point, but I was actually referring to the EU army.
I woz fleeced.0 -
I'm still chuckling over Mossad agents and vapid bilge hissy-fit.blackburn63 said:
They are grateful that people are attempting to intellectualise their own weak position. If you ask a Remainer WHY they believe so strongly in the EU they rarely, if ever, give you a coherent answer.Plato_Says said:Given how often the Great & Good have been wrong on the ERM, Euro, 2008 crash, forecasting in general - it'd be refreshing to understand why Remainers are so keen to believe them now.
Or are they just a fig-leaf for their own position?
Take Meeks, the self appointed sage of PB, his overriding reason for Remaining is that people like me call him names. He was undecided for ages, if the economic argument was so compelling why the hesitancy?0 -
If Leave do get it then one thing will indeed be truly different for the first time in ages - the plebs will have landed a meaningful blow on the establishment. We keep hearing about how pissed off voters are with the elites and the status quo everywhere, and the rise of AfD, Trump, Le Pen, UKIP etc. But these have not actually gained power anywhere or yet had a concrete result to crow about. The establishment and the status quo still win every time. A Leave vote would change that. It would shake the rotten and complacent EU to its core and prompt all sorts of ructions within. I think it would also somehow be a boon for Trump. Democracy is rotten unless it throws out the occasional two fingers to the slippery greased piglets who run our lives.
It is more important to Meeks to avoid letting some Tories he dislikes have a temporary ascendence than the future of our freedom. It is much more important to me to see the machine brought low by the ordinary people. I'm feeding off the fear these establishment shitbags emanate with their every breath.0 -
"Boris & the H-word"
What the Papers say:
Boris Johnson's Hitler analogy gains little newspaper backing
National press reaction to his hyperbolic Nazi argument is largely hostile, and even the Brexit titles offer him only muted support
http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2016/may/16/boris-johnsons-hitler-analogy-gains-little-newspaper-backing0 -
Its frightened Cameron so much he's grovelling to Daily Mirror readers. Plenty of those won't have known when the referendum is, they do now.MarqueeMark said:0 -
Making it HMG vs The People was beyond stupid.Yorkcity said:
I agree Plato .Plato_Says said:
He's throwing both of EdM's at it too.Yorkcity said:
Cameron is throwing the kitchen sink at this.Plato_Says said:More complete twaddle from Remain
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/15/three-million-eu-citizens-in-the-uk-could-be-deported-if-britons/
He must belief his own rhetoric.
I think he is writing his own legacy, in that he now does not care as much about his own party but becoming an historical prime minister of note.
He will bow out undefeated in general elections and securing EU membership.
In recent times that puts him in the Blair, Wilson, Group and above Brown, Eden, Douglas -Home, Heath, Callaghan, Major.
He certainly has not followed the Harold Wilson rule book in the 75 referendum.
Wilson did not take the lead as Cameron has.
Cameron owns the result what ever it is.0 -
It's an interesting chart. Does it mean that those with the longest experience of the EU are the ones most likely to vote Leave? Generally - and I realise this is a huge generalisation - the older you get the more risk-averse you are and, whatever else can be said for it, leaving the EU involves risk.MarqueeMark said:
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Which floating voters do you think Michael "some day we will join the Euro" Heseltine is going to appeal to?Scott_P said:0 -
Another way of looking at it is.....the future is voting for REMAIN, the past for LEAVE......(or youthful folly & wisdom...depending on your point of view...)MarqueeMark said:0 -
Dr. Foxinsox, one feels your pain (albeit at odds just a twelfth of those you backed).0
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The electorate will be the same though, as will the date of the next election.AlastairMeeks said:@ThreeQuidder I simply disagree with your analysis. The idea that the future of government is going to be the same whether Remain or Leave wins is one I find wholly fanciful. If Leave win, the loonies are going to get much more power.
And trying to stop that is far more important to me than the referendum itself.
Whoever does the negotiating will be conscious of both those things.
They will still end up having to answer to us.0 -
Yep, those plucky billionaires, Tory cabinet ministers, and newspaper editors and owners sticking two fingers up at the Establishment. It's great to see.Patrick said:If Leave do get it then one thing will indeed be truly different for the first time in ages - the plebs will have landed a meaningful blow on the establishment. We keep hearing about how pissed off voters are with the elites and the status quo everywhere, and the rise of AfD, Trump, Le Pen, UKIP etc. But these have not actually gained power anywhere or yet had a concrete result to crow about. The establishment and the status quo still win every time. A Leave vote would change that. It would shake the rotten and complacent EU to its core and prompt all sorts of ructions within. I think it would also somehow be a boon for Trump. Democracy is rotten unless it throws out the occasional two fingers to the slippery greased piglets who run our lives.
It is more important to Meeks to avoid letting some Tories he dislikes have a temporary ascendence than the future of our freedom. It is much more important to me to see the machine brought low by the ordinary people. I'm feeding off the fear these establishment shitbags emanate with their every breath.
0 -
Patrick,
"plebs will have landed a meaningful blow on the establishment."
Indeed. The Weasles and the Stoats from the Wildwood will be befouling Toad Towers and spreading their plebeian views all over the river bank.0 -
Well said Patrick, the EU itself is actually becoming a side issue here, its about something even bigger. Its about telling the BBC, Thornberry, Meeks, Clegg, Cameron, Blair etc etc who specialise in sneering control freakery, that actually, you don't know best.Patrick said:If Leave do get it then one thing will indeed be truly different for the first time in ages - the plebs will have landed a meaningful blow on the establishment. We keep hearing about how pissed off voters are with the elites and the status quo everywhere, and the rise of AfD, Trump, Le Pen, UKIP etc. But these have not actually gained power anywhere or yet had a concrete result to crow about. The establishment and the status quo still win every time. A Leave vote would change that. It would shake the rotten and complacent EU to its core and prompt all sorts of ructions within. I think it would also somehow be a boon for Trump. Democracy is rotten unless it throws out the occasional two fingers to the slippery greased piglets who run our lives.
It is more important to Meeks to avoid letting some Tories he dislikes have a temporary ascendence than the future of our freedom. It is much more important to me to see the machine brought low by the ordinary people. I'm feeding off the fear these establishment shitbags emanate with their every breath.0 -
Natalie Bennett gives up. Search for a new Green Leader starts, perhaps soundings need to be taken to work out if they can find someone other than Caroline Lucas whom the bookmakers, punters and public have heard about.0
-
Its one of the conundrums of the referendum - the older/risk averse in favour of change, the younger/adventurous in favour of the status quo.Cyclefree said:
It's an interesting chart. Does it mean that those with the longest experience of the EU are the ones most likely to vote Leave? Generally - and I realise this is a huge generalisation - the older you get the more risk-averse you are and, whatever else can be said for it, leaving the EU involves risk.MarqueeMark said:
How this will all shake out, goodness knows.....
I reckon a good 'Pensions scare Warning if Brexit' may be coming to us soon....that and moral blackmail 'think of your grand kids'.....0 -
@blackburn63 - I'm honoured to rank number three in that list. Nick Clegg might be a bit annoyed to have been demoted after me.0
-
Staying in the EU involves risks. For the older generation, it involves the risk of Germany again throwing its weight around. Running riot through EU democracy. Such as opening up the EU's collective borders whenever it says so, for example...Cyclefree said:
It's an interesting chart. Does it mean that those with the longest experience of the EU are the ones most likely to vote Leave? Generally - and I realise this is a huge generalisation - the older you get the more risk-averse you are and, whatever else can be said for it, leaving the EU involves risk.MarqueeMark said:0 -
Look on the bright side - he didn't mention the H-word......Casino_Royale said:
Which floating voters do you think Michael "some day we will join the Euro" Heseltine is going to appeal to?Scott_P said:
0 -
Mr. Observer, you must surely agree that a substantial majority of the Establishment is for Remain?
[It doesn't matter overly much, what counts is the arguments on either side...].0 -
If Leave wins - Mr Meeks will be forced to watch Jeremy Kyle. And tweet how much he likes it.CD13 said:Patrick,
"plebs will have landed a meaningful blow on the establishment."
Indeed. The Weasles and the Stoats from the Wildwood will be befouling Toad Towers and spreading their plebeian views all over the river bank.
0 -
Is it simply that, on average, people become more right-wing as they age and Leave is associated with the right in this country?CarlottaVance said:
Another way of looking at it is.....the future is voting for REMAIN, the past for LEAVE......(or youthful folly & wisdom...depending on your point of view...)MarqueeMark said:
If Leave were predominantly a left-wing cause (which is possible) would the age profile be reversed?0 -
If Brexit wins Boris et al will surely be taking the lead in the negotiations and therefore the future direction of the country. To suggest otherwise is nonsense and if anyone tried to do otherwise there would rightly be howls of anger from the Leavers.ThreeQuidder said:
What has proved true is that your illogical decision has caused you to be increasingly swivel-eyed, both above and below the line.AlastairMeeks said:@ThreeQuidder Those people will get more influence by being part of the cabal that will take over the direction of this government. It's not complicated.
Will they get absolute power? No, thank goodness. But they would get far too much for my liking.
I made it clear some time ago that I would not be voting Leave because it was apparent that Leave was going to be dominated by people whose views I had no sympathy with whatsoever. And so it has proved.
A "cabal"? "Taking over the direction of the government"? Jesus wept.
If Leave win it has to be their show from then on. The negotiations should be a hoot given that the Leavers have insulted just about everyone they are going to be negotiating with. Having likened the EU to Hitler Boris is of course then going to negotiate a fabulous deal for us all from the EU.0 -
He represents the traditional europhile view that the EU is necessary to prevent another European war, and the rise of another H-word.CarlottaVance said:
Look on the bright side - he didn't mention the H-word......Casino_Royale said:
Which floating voters do you think Michael "some day we will join the Euro" Heseltine is going to appeal to?Scott_P said:
"Out-of-date" just doesn't quite cut it.0 -
I think he'd breath a sigh of relief that he doesn't sneer as much as you.AlastairMeeks said:@blackburn63 - I'm honoured to rank number three in that list. Nick Clegg might be a bit annoyed to have been demoted after me.
0 -
kudosAlastairMeeks said:@blackburn63 - I'm honoured to rank number three in that list. Nick Clegg might be a bit annoyed to have been demoted after me.
0 -
I seem to remember Lords Lawson and Lamont being quite involved in the ERM fiasco; while plenty of Remainers were opposed to the UK joining the Eurozone.Plato_Says said:Given how often the Great & Good have been wrong on the ERM, Euro, 2008 crash, forecasting in general - it'd be refreshing to understand why Remainers are so keen to believe them now.
Or are they just a fig-leaf for their own position?
What I find more puzzling is why so many Tory Leavers ever supported government fiscal and economic policies predicated on continued EU membership and high levels of EU immigration. Cabinet ministers lauded it, MPs cheered it, supporters sung its praises. How quickly things change.
0 -
Of course he (or more likely Gove) would.OllyT said:
If Brexit wins Boris et al will surely be taking the lead in the negotiations and therefore the future direction of the country. To suggest otherwise is nonsense and if anyone tried to do otherwise there would rightly be howls of anger from the Leavers.ThreeQuidder said:
What has proved true is that your illogical decision has caused you to be increasingly swivel-eyed, both above and below the line.AlastairMeeks said:@ThreeQuidder Those people will get more influence by being part of the cabal that will take over the direction of this government. It's not complicated.
Will they get absolute power? No, thank goodness. But they would get far too much for my liking.
I made it clear some time ago that I would not be voting Leave because it was apparent that Leave was going to be dominated by people whose views I had no sympathy with whatsoever. And so it has proved.
A "cabal"? "Taking over the direction of the government"? Jesus wept.
If Leave win it has to be their show from then on. The negotiations should be a hoot given that the Leavers have insulted just about everyone they are going to be negotiating with. Having likened the EU to Hitler Boris is of course then going to negotiate a fabulous deal for us all from the EU.
There's no point crying over spilt milk. If we vote to Leave then our trading partners will have little choice but to respect that and make a deal because they'd want one too. Just as when we go into a General Election the reality is our partners will work with whoever we elect as PM and not just those they find agreeable.0 -
Given I started out as a reluctant Remain [I wanted Cameron to get a reasonable deal], and have shifted to committed Leave - and in my 40s... I feel that chart is talking about People Like Me.MarqueeMark said:
Staying in the EU involves risks. For the older generation, it involves the risk of Germany again throwing its weight around. Running riot through EU democracy. Such as opening up the EU's collective borders whenever it says so, for example...Cyclefree said:
It's an interesting chart. Does it mean that those with the longest experience of the EU are the ones most likely to vote Leave? Generally - and I realise this is a huge generalisation - the older you get the more risk-averse you are and, whatever else can be said for it, leaving the EU involves risk.MarqueeMark said:0 -
Frother, tin foil, headbanger, nutter, loon...
I've been hearing these words for almost 20 years. It hasn't stopped euroscepticism from growing.
Given that almost half the population supports Brexit I can only conclude that Remainers think that the half the population is mad. In which case, it's a wonder we can survive at all.
Maybe they'll take such beliefs to their grave, like Heseletine, even if the UK resoundingly rejects the EU.0 -
I'm afraid you've dropped to No 2 in the tipping compo now too, I've decided to include Mr Dancer's Verstappen tip as a 40-1 (Price available at time of tip) 1/2 stake "tiny sum" winner.AlastairMeeks said:@blackburn63 - I'm honoured to rank number three in that list. Nick Clegg might be a bit annoyed to have been demoted after me.
0 -
I thought @chestnut's observation that ABs are more ignorant of EU funding, than CDEs was fascinating.blackburn63 said:
Well said Patrick, the EU itself is actually becoming a side issue here, its about something even bigger. Its about telling the BBC, Thornberry, Meeks, Clegg, Cameron, Blair etc etc who specialise in sneering control freakery, that actually, you don't know best.Patrick said:If Leave do get it then one thing will indeed be truly different for the first time in ages - the plebs will have landed a meaningful blow on the establishment. We keep hearing about how pissed off voters are with the elites and the status quo everywhere, and the rise of AfD, Trump, Le Pen, UKIP etc. But these have not actually gained power anywhere or yet had a concrete result to crow about. The establishment and the status quo still win every time. A Leave vote would change that. It would shake the rotten and complacent EU to its core and prompt all sorts of ructions within. I think it would also somehow be a boon for Trump. Democracy is rotten unless it throws out the occasional two fingers to the slippery greased piglets who run our lives.
It is more important to Meeks to avoid letting some Tories he dislikes have a temporary ascendence than the future of our freedom. It is much more important to me to see the machine brought low by the ordinary people. I'm feeding off the fear these establishment shitbags emanate with their every breath.0 -
It could be that the younger generation haven't had their optimism ground out of them - yet and feel that there's a chance to 'change the EU from the inside'CarlottaVance said:
Its one of the conundrums of the referendum - the older/risk averse in favour of change, the younger/adventurous in favour of the status quo.Cyclefree said:
It's an interesting chart. Does it mean that those with the longest experience of the EU are the ones most likely to vote Leave? Generally - and I realise this is a huge generalisation - the older you get the more risk-averse you are and, whatever else can be said for it, leaving the EU involves risk.MarqueeMark said:
How this will all shake out, goodness knows.....
I reckon a good 'Pensions scare Warning if Brexit' may be coming to us soon....that and moral blackmail 'think of your grand kids'.....0 -
Mr. Royale, or, as Alan Johnson helpfully put it, 'extremist'. A word usually associated with terrorists.
Still, I am having second thoughts. I'm not fond of the EU, but don't want to be £43,000 a year worse off. I'd need to take out a loan for that. And the thought of global war and the extinction of the human race if Leave wins is worrying.0 -
An oddly gurning Osbrown maxing out the national credit card. David Cameron spinning for his life and threatening war. Michael Fallon wanting to bomb everywhere with our three planes. 27 year olds running the treasury. Newsflash: the lunatics are already here. The only thing these people have going for them is the patina of power and influence.AlastairMeeks said:@ThreeQuidder If Leave win, the big question of the next few years is going to be the terms of disengagement from the EU. That inevitably is going to need to be led by those who can credibly speak for those who voted for that outcome. It is fanciful to imagine that those who voted for Leave are not going to be in the ascendant in those circumstances.
Unlike Cincinnatus, the Leave politicians are not going to return to their funny farms. The opposite - the lunatics are going to take over the asylum.0 -
All those who supported Osborne's plans to eliminate the deficit by 2020/1 were supporting a plan reliant on high-levels of continued immigration from the EU. If they don't now support his plan, what are they proposing? Moving the target, raising taxes, more cuts in public spending, or what?VapidBilge said:
Excuse me?SouthamObserver said:
But, but, but ... Hitlerfoxinsoxuk said:
That would be the same Boris leading the Leave campaign who described himself eight months ago as "basically pro immigration" and calling for an illegal immigrant amnesty?SouthamObserver said:
Yep, Boris is so eaten up with concern about this issue that he has never taken any steps as either an MP or as London mayor to do anything about it.ydoethur said:
Consistency was never his long suit though was it? I seem to remember he used to talk a lot about the importance of family life and supporting marriage as well...SouthamObserver said:
It's great to see that Boris has suddenly discovered the earnings gap. But it's unclear how that squares with his oft-stated belief that very rich people should be paying even less tax than they do now.Paul_Bedfordshire said:You can wheel in as many of the great and good as you like but in a world where CEOs trough salaries 150* that of their employees (hat tip Boris) all the likes of Lagarde, Carney and Obama are seen as is mill owners trying to feed propaganda to further they and their Oligarchies nests.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3264239/Let-long-term-illegals-stay-UK-says-Boris-London-mayor-believes-immigrants-12-years-granted-amnesty.html
Of course the prevailing wind was different that day...
Of course, like many Leavers on here, eight months ago Boris was a fully signed up supporter og government fiscal and economic policies predicated on EU membership and large scale immigration.
Considering the preponderance of Tories and Kippers on this board, where exactly are these Leavers who supported large scale immigration?
Remember this?
“I believe that will mean net migration to this country will be in the order of tens of thousands each year, not the hundreds of thousands every year that we have seen over the last decade. Britain will always be open to the best and brightest from around the world and those fleeing persecution. But with us, our borders will be under control and immigration will be at levels our country can manage. No ifs. No buts. That’s a promise we made to the British people, and it’s a promise we are keeping.”
0 -
I have a theory on this.Cyclefree said:
It's an interesting chart. Does it mean that those with the longest experience of the EU are the ones most likely to vote Leave? Generally - and I realise this is a huge generalisation - the older you get the more risk-averse you are and, whatever else can be said for it, leaving the EU involves risk.MarqueeMark said:
The younger you are (over eighteen), the more mobile you are. You move to university, move to your first job, move to another country, move in with your partner somewhere mutually acceptable, etc.
As you get older, you settle down, your kids go to a limited number of nearby schools (hence my comment about over eighteen) and you get to know an increasing number of people in social clubs, your neighbourhood and parish.
Then, as you mature, you see your children and relatives' children being forced out of social housing by more deserving incomers, being forced to move into the periphery by increasing house prices and the neighbourhood changing because of this.
So the older you are, the more roots you've put down, the more you dislike rapid change because the option to move is no longer open to you. Notice a certain poster emphasis on how young immigrants are.
To use a horticultural reference, you move from seed, to seedling, to plant.0 -
Generalising wildly, of course, I think the older/risk averse tend to see leaving the EU as a way of putting the brakes on change in an environment that is already changing more rapidly then they would like. They don't see leaving the EU as a risk; they see it as a respite.CarlottaVance said:
Its one of the conundrums of the referendum - the older/risk averse in favour of change, the younger/adventurous in favour of the status quo.Cyclefree said:
It's an interesting chart. Does it mean that those with the longest experience of the EU are the ones most likely to vote Leave? Generally - and I realise this is a huge generalisation - the older you get the more risk-averse you are and, whatever else can be said for it, leaving the EU involves risk.MarqueeMark said:
How this will all shake out, goodness knows.....
I reckon a good 'Pensions scare Warning if Brexit' may be coming to us soon....that and moral blackmail 'think of your grand kids'.....
The young, on the other hand, see the EU as an opportunity to expand their horizons and feel that leaving the EU would be curtailing these opportunities. For them, leaving the EU isn't a risk at all, it's a brake on their ambition.0 -
To be scrupulously fair to Labour, something I'm not naturally inclined to be, they only held overall control of Glasgow Council for slightly over half of the period between 1934-1980 when the Glasgow Effect might be said to have taken root. Of course SLab, SCons, Libs/LDs, Progressives, the feeble 50, the Scottish Office (controlled by Lab, Cons or Libs/LDs) and the Westminster government controlling national economic policy all share one basic political imperative.dugarbandier said:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14493634.Revealed___Glasgow_effect__mortality_rate_blamed_on_Westminster_social_engineering/?ref=eblnCarlottaVance said:Nicola's "triumph" (sic) continues......first it was OBFA, now it's APD:
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-facing-pressure-to-axe-plans-to-cut-air-passenger-duty-1-4128823
though the headline is misleading, because it seems to say it was a combination of scottish office and local policies, followed by thatcherism as the icing on the cake.
But fair to say that labour in scotland probably pretty much deserves the kicking it is belatedly getting0 -
This is all so this... Jonathon Haidt on liberal left distain.Casino_Royale said:Frother, tin foil, headbanger, nutter, loon...
I've been hearing these words for almost 20 years. It hasn't stopped euroscepticism from growing.
Given that almost half the population supports Brexit I can only conclude that Remainers think that the half the population is mad. In which case, it's a wonder we can survive at all.
Maybe they'll take such beliefs to their grave, like Heseletine, even if the UK resoundingly rejects the EU.
https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind?language=en0 -
One thing that went under the radar was Ed Balls making a reference to "zero" budgeting in the run up to GE2015.SouthamObserver said:
All those who supported Osborne's plans to eliminate the deficit by 2020/1 were supporting a plan reliant on high-levels of continued immigration from the EU. If they don't now support his plan, what are they proposing? Moving the target, raising taxes, more cuts in public spending, or what?
It was an interesting thought - though I doubt many noticed it and those that did wouldn't trust Labour to deliver...
If the pet hobbies of both the left (International aid, some benefits) and the right (triple lock, nuclear weapons) were canned we could probably get there.0 -
I think it will be more about the demographic of those who choose to leave, which I think will be skewed heavily to the working class as opposed to the fairly asset rich middle class who have more to lose from potential changesSouthamObserver said:
Yep, those plucky billionaires, Tory cabinet ministers, and newspaper editors and owners sticking two fingers up at the Establishment. It's great to see.Patrick said:If Leave do get it then one thing will indeed be truly different for the first time in ages - the plebs will have landed a meaningful blow on the establishment. We keep hearing about how pissed off voters are with the elites and the status quo everywhere, and the rise of AfD, Trump, Le Pen, UKIP etc. But these have not actually gained power anywhere or yet had a concrete result to crow about. The establishment and the status quo still win every time. A Leave vote would change that. It would shake the rotten and complacent EU to its core and prompt all sorts of ructions within. I think it would also somehow be a boon for Trump. Democracy is rotten unless it throws out the occasional two fingers to the slippery greased piglets who run our lives.
It is more important to Meeks to avoid letting some Tories he dislikes have a temporary ascendence than the future of our freedom. It is much more important to me to see the machine brought low by the ordinary people. I'm feeding off the fear these establishment shitbags emanate with their every breath.0 -
I think it's highly likely that our EU partners will be as difficult as possible if we Brexit partly because they will be pissed off at the abuse from Leavers, pissed off at the disruption caused but also to deter others who may consider following suit. Those banking on a quick and easy ride are taking a huge risk.Philip_Thompson said:
Of course he (or more likely Gove) would.OllyT said:
If Brexit wins Boris et al will surely be taking the lead in the negotiations and therefore the future direction of the country. To suggest otherwise is nonsense and if anyone tried to do otherwise there would rightly be howls of anger from the Leavers.ThreeQuidder said:
What has proved true is that your illogical decision has caused you to be increasingly swivel-eyed, both above and below the line.AlastairMeeks said:@ThreeQuidder Those people will get more influence by being part of the cabal that will take over the direction of this government. It's not complicated.
Will they get absolute power? No, thank goodness. But they would get far too much for my liking.
I made it clear some time ago that I would not be voting Leave because it was apparent that Leave was going to be dominated by people whose views I had no sympathy with whatsoever. And so it has proved.
A "cabal"? "Taking over the direction of the government"? Jesus wept.
If Leave win it has to be their show from then on. The negotiations should be a hoot given that the Leavers have insulted just about everyone they are going to be negotiating with. Having likened the EU to Hitler Boris is of course then going to negotiate a fabulous deal for us all from the EU.
There's no point crying over spilt milk. If we vote to Leave then our trading partners will have little choice but to respect that and make a deal because they'd want one too. Just as when we go into a General Election the reality is our partners will work with whoever we elect as PM and not just those they find agreeable.0 -
You forgot moon-howler.Casino_Royale said:Frother, tin foil, headbanger, nutter, loon...
I've been hearing these words for almost 20 years. It hasn't stopped euroscepticism from growing.
Given that almost half the population supports Brexit I can only conclude that Remainers think that the half the population is mad. In which case, it's a wonder we can survive at all.
Maybe they'll take such beliefs to their grave, like Heseletine, even if the UK resoundingly rejects the EU.0 -
I see the Establishment dominating both sides of the argument, with ordinary people seemingly split half and half - or at least those ordinary people taking any intetest.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, you must surely agree that a substantial majority of the Establishment is for Remain?
[It doesn't matter overly much, what counts is the arguments on either side...].
0 -
Mr. Pulpstar, to be honest, I wouldn't have tipped it (probably) at 41, but I'm glad you got on it.
Monaco could be interesting. Might be more value looking at the back rather than the front (Sainz had a good race in Spain but got sod all airtime, for obvious reasons).0 -
Apparently cat breeds from non-trade deal nations will be put down too. Vote Remain or Tiddles gets it.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Royale, or, as Alan Johnson helpfully put it, 'extremist'. A word usually associated with terrorists.
Still, I am having second thoughts. I'm not fond of the EU, but don't want to be £43,000 a year worse off. I'd need to take out a loan for that. And the thought of global war and the extinction of the human race if Leave wins is worrying.0 -
Really? I don't remember that being that being pointed out. In fact, I actually quoted David Cameron saying that he would restrict immigration, but have blithely ignored that in preference to your made-up "facts".SouthamObserver said:
All those who supported Osborne's plans to eliminate the deficit by 2020/1 were supporting a plan reliant on high-levels of continued immigration from the EU. If they don't now support his plan, what are they proposing? Moving the target, raising taxes, more cuts in public spending, or what?VapidBilge said:
Excuse me?SouthamObserver said:
But, but, but ... Hitlerfoxinsoxuk said:SouthamObserver said:
Yep, Boris is so eaten up with concern about this issue that he has never taken any steps as either an MP or as London mayor to do anything about it.ydoethur said:
Consistency was never his long suit though was it? I seem to remember he used to talk a lot about the importance of family life and supporting marriage as well...SouthamObserver said:
It's great to see that Boris has suddenly discovered the earnings gap. But it's unclear how that squares with his oft-stated belief that very rich people should be paying even less tax than they do now.Paul_Bedfordshire said:You can wheel in as many of the great and good as you like but in a world where CEOs trough salaries 150* that of their employees (hat tip Boris) all the likes of Lagarde, Carney and Obama are seen as is mill owners trying to feed propaganda to further they and their Oligarchies nests.
Of course, like many Leavers on here, eight months ago Boris was a fully signed up supporter og government fiscal and economic policies predicated on EU membership and large scale immigration.
Considering the preponderance of Tories and Kippers on this board, where exactly are these Leavers who supported large scale immigration?
Remember this?
“I believe that will mean net migration to this country will be in the order of tens of thousands each year, not the hundreds of thousands every year that we have seen over the last decade. Britain will always be open to the best and brightest from around the world and those fleeing persecution. But with us, our borders will be under control and immigration will be at levels our country can manage. No ifs. No buts. That’s a promise we made to the British people, and it’s a promise we are keeping.”
And what exactly is wrong with cutting back on Labour's ludicrous overspending?0 -
I didn't get on it - I'm merely trying to keep a record of all tips generated from the site and related blogsMorris_Dancer said:Mr. Pulpstar, to be honest, I wouldn't have tipped it (probably) at 41, but I'm glad you got on it.
Monaco could be interesting. Might be more value looking at the back rather than the front (Sainz had a good race in Spain but got sod all airtime, for obvious reasons).
I think its only fair you take some credit for it 0 -
Indeed, everyone in the know (including the REMAIN side's leaders) is well aware that there will be a rapid deal between the UK and the EU after Brexit. It will preserve tariff-free trade and some aspects of free movement - but not all.Philip_Thompson said:
Of course he (or more likely Gove) would.OllyT said:
If Brexit wins Boris et al will surely be taking the lead in the negotiations and therefore the future direction of the country. To suggest otherwise is nonsense and if anyone tried to do otherwise there would rightly be howls of anger from the Leavers.ThreeQuidder said:
What has proved true is that your illogical decision has caused you to be increasingly swivel-eyed, both above and below the line.AlastairMeeks said:@ThreeQuidder Those people will get more influence by being part of the cabal that will take over the direction of this government. It's not complicated.
Will they get absolute power? No, thank goodness. But they would get far too much for my liking.
I made it clear some time ago that I would not be voting Leave because it was apparent that Leave was going to be dominated by people whose views I had no sympathy with whatsoever. And so it has proved.
A "cabal"? "Taking over the direction of the government"? Jesus wept.
If Leave win it has to be their show from then on. The negotiations should be a hoot given that the Leavers have insulted just about everyone they are going to be negotiating with. Having likened the EU to Hitler Boris is of course then going to negotiate a fabulous deal for us all from the EU.
There's no point crying over spilt milk. If we vote to Leave then our trading partners will have little choice but to respect that and make a deal because they'd want one too. Just as when we go into a General Election the reality is our partners will work with whoever we elect as PM and not just those they find agreeable.
We could have cut a deal like this any time in the last twenty-five years. It's only the reluctance of our own political and bureaucratic establishment to the will of the people - related to their desire to keep trying to pull the voters toward EU political integration (with the goodies that means for them) - that has prevented this.0 -
Please, let us know any feelings from the vapours you get - you clearly know your stuff !Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Pulpstar, to be honest, I wouldn't have tipped it (probably) at 41, but I'm glad you got on it.
Monaco could be interesting. Might be more value looking at the back rather than the front (Sainz had a good race in Spain but got sod all airtime, for obvious reasons).0 -
Cameron has belatedly realised this hence pleading with Mirror readers.TonyE said:
I think it will be more about the demographic of those who choose to leave, which I think will be skewed heavily to the working class as opposed to the fairly asset rich middle class who have more to lose from potential changesSouthamObserver said:
Yep, those plucky billionaires, Tory cabinet ministers, and newspaper editors and owners sticking two fingers up at the Establishment. It's great to see.Patrick said:If Leave do get it then one thing will indeed be truly different for the first time in ages - the plebs will have landed a meaningful blow on the establishment. We keep hearing about how pissed off voters are with the elites and the status quo everywhere, and the rise of AfD, Trump, Le Pen, UKIP etc. But these have not actually gained power anywhere or yet had a concrete result to crow about. The establishment and the status quo still win every time. A Leave vote would change that. It would shake the rotten and complacent EU to its core and prompt all sorts of ructions within. I think it would also somehow be a boon for Trump. Democracy is rotten unless it throws out the occasional two fingers to the slippery greased piglets who run our lives.
It is more important to Meeks to avoid letting some Tories he dislikes have a temporary ascendence than the future of our freedom. It is much more important to me to see the machine brought low by the ordinary people. I'm feeding off the fear these establishment shitbags emanate with their every breath.0 -
I can understand support for Brexit, what I find harder to comprehend is the almost religious fervour of SOME leavers. Its like the quest for the holy grail and, to me at least, its not a vote winner.Casino_Royale said:Frother, tin foil, headbanger, nutter, loon...
I've been hearing these words for almost 20 years. It hasn't stopped euroscepticism from growing.
Given that almost half the population supports Brexit I can only conclude that Remainers think that the half the population is mad. In which case, it's a wonder we can survive at all.
Maybe they'll take such beliefs to their grave, like Heseletine, even if the UK resoundingly rejects the EU.0 -
Lawson and Lamont were the biggest proponents of the ERM. Gordon Brown made sure Britain never entered the Eurozone by creating the 5 tests which could never be achieved.SouthamObserver said:
I seem to remember Lords Lawson and Lamont being quite involved in the ERM fiasco; while plenty of Remainers were opposed to the UK joining the Eurozone.Plato_Says said:Given how often the Great & Good have been wrong on the ERM, Euro, 2008 crash, forecasting in general - it'd be refreshing to understand why Remainers are so keen to believe them now.
Or are they just a fig-leaf for their own position?
What I find more puzzling is why so many Tory Leavers ever supported government fiscal and economic policies predicated on continued EU membership and high levels of EU immigration. Cabinet ministers lauded it, MPs cheered it, supporters sung its praises. How quickly things change.
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And xenophobe, waycist, vulgar... I must add - Jeremy Kyle is a shoutfest today. It really should be included in sentencing options for the insufferably smug.MarqueeMark said:
You forgot moon-howler.Casino_Royale said:Frother, tin foil, headbanger, nutter, loon...
I've been hearing these words for almost 20 years. It hasn't stopped euroscepticism from growing.
Given that almost half the population supports Brexit I can only conclude that Remainers think that the half the population is mad. In which case, it's a wonder we can survive at all.
Maybe they'll take such beliefs to their grave, like Heseletine, even if the UK resoundingly rejects the EU.0 -
Mr. Pulpstar, ha, it was just lucky to notice the driver change as it happened, and get on the bet. Still relied on Mercedes having a double DNF.
Only the winner's market up on Betfair. Verstappen's down to 9 (as are Vettel and Ricciardo). Too short. Sainz is 7th favourite (NB *not* backing him). That's unfortunate, as I was thinking of checking his points odds, but those will probably be far too short.
Going to post an article at the year end with your findings?0 -
No, but its what will win it for Leave, turnoutmidwinter said:
I can understand support for Brexit, what I find harder to comprehend is the almost religious fervour of SOME leavers. Its like the quest for the holy grail and, to me at least, its not a vote winner.Casino_Royale said:Frother, tin foil, headbanger, nutter, loon...
I've been hearing these words for almost 20 years. It hasn't stopped euroscepticism from growing.
Given that almost half the population supports Brexit I can only conclude that Remainers think that the half the population is mad. In which case, it's a wonder we can survive at all.
Maybe they'll take such beliefs to their grave, like Heseletine, even if the UK resoundingly rejects the EU.0 -
Apart from those of us who bought gold. I have almost zero faith in politicians and central bankers and bought quite a bit of gold when I left my previous employer last summer. It's done excellently over the last 12 months and looks set to explode if we get another recession or the Pound takes a pummelling.
I think it will be more about the demographic of those who choose to leave, which I think will be skewed heavily to the working class as opposed to the fairly asset rich middle class who have more to lose from potential changes0 -
All these head banging Leavers attacking Cameron and Osborne: where have they been the last 6 years ?0
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