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shiney2 said:

CarlottaVance said:

So in Summary,

The 'piffle cartoon' says:

- end to jury trials

The Treaty of Lisbon Says:

The Union shall constitute an area of freedom, security and justice with respect for fundamental rights and the different legal systems and traditions of the Member States.

The 'piffle cartoon' says:

- forced adoption of the Euro

The Treaty of Lisbon Says:

Unless the United Kingdom notifies the Council that it intends to adopt the euro, it shall be under no obligation to do so.

The 'piffle cartoon' says:

- forced into Schengen

The Treaty of Lisbon says:

The United Kingdom may, at any time afterwards, notify the Council of its wish to participate in ......... Schengen


'Piffle' indeed!

better watch it again..)

Better read the Treaty of Lisbon - at all.......

shiney2 said:

CarlottaVance said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

CarlottaVance said:

shiney2 said:

CarlottaVance said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

CarlottaVance said:

shiney2 said:

Hello Britain!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0pwXLtvt2w&feature=youtu.be

A perfect start!

Made by 'piffle'

An apposite name....

Or would 'Project Rubbish Fear' be even more so?

Forced adoption of the Euro?
Forced end of common law/jury trials?
Forced accession to Schengen?

Is this a message VoteLeave support?

It's the policy of influential REMAINERS - check out Heseltine, Mandelson etc

We're for national parliamentary democracy . Are you?

I am and I see no threat to it from continued EU membership. We are sovereign, as this referendum demonstrates.

He's flailing.

Chapter 1

Article 67

1. The Union shall constitute an area of freedom, security and justice with respect for fundamental rights and the different legal systems and traditions of the Member States.

'respect for' clearly does not prevent their supercession. eg prisoner voting 'rights'.

Where does it say 'end of jury trials'?

It doesn't

You're embarrassing yourself.....

I think you have failed to understand the subordinate position of nations in the eu law making process. The eu institutions (courts, commission etc) make law, now and in the future, that we have agreed to implement.

The key word being "agreed"

Yep that's what Heath originally put into law.

And since then we have elected Parliaments that have been happy to follow that. Last year we elected a Parliament that voted for legislation to enable the referendum. And lo and behold one is taking place.

Its still gloriously unclear who will physically stop us from holding a referendum in future.....

Well, to you, obv.

Do tell......with a link, preferably.....

In the meantime, here's a link that might help you:

http://www.bacofoil.co.uk

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

CarlottaVance said:

shiney2 said:

Hello Britain!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0pwXLtvt2w&feature=youtu.be

A perfect start!

Made by 'piffle'

An apposite name....

Or would 'Project Rubbish Fear' be even more so?

Forced adoption of the Euro?
Forced end of common law/jury trials?
Forced accession to Schengen?

Is this a message VoteLeave support?

It's the policy of influential REMAINERS - check out Heseltine, Mandelson etc

We're for national parliamentary democracy . Are you?

I am and I see no threat to it from continued EU membership. We are sovereign, as this referendum demonstrates.

We are sovereign in any area until it becomes an EU Competence. Then we are not.

As and when referendums become an eu competence, we will hold them when we are permitted to.

That is only the case until we decide otherwise, as this referendum shows.

I doubt we could choose to exercise a power where they have rescinded its means. Would our civil servants allow a minister to issue an order for a referendum that the eu had declared was illegal? Probably not if one takes the current assertions of ministers as the reality.

The EU has no power to declare a referendum illegal.

They haven't issued a law to do it, yet.

However they have certainly demonstrated a power to do so. eg when they sacked one of the recent greek governments for simply saying they would hold a ref.

No government was sacked, a referendum was held.

I think it was a reference to the Papandreou government. However, as I recall it was Papandreou who called it off following the IMF's warnings it would scupper the bailout deal and cause worse problems. He was then sacked for having no balls, replaced by Tsipras who went ahead, and the crisis deepened immediately.

The EU didn't ultimately stop the referendum or sack the government. If they had been able to do so they would surely have done so, given the terrible damage Tsipras and his plebiscite caused their reputation.

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

CarlottaVance said:

shiney2 said:

Hello Britain!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0pwXLtvt2w&feature=youtu.be

A perfect start!

Made by 'piffle'

An apposite name....

Or would 'Project Rubbish Fear' be even more so?

Forced adoption of the Euro?
Forced end of common law/jury trials?
Forced accession to Schengen?

Is this a message VoteLeave support?

It's the policy of influential REMAINERS - check out Heseltine, Mandelson etc

We're for national parliamentary democracy . Are you?

I am and I see no threat to it from continued EU membership. We are sovereign, as this referendum demonstrates.

We are sovereign in any area until it becomes an EU Competence. Then we are not.

As and when referendums become an eu competence, we will hold them when we are permitted to.

That is only the case until we decide otherwise, as this referendum shows.

I doubt we could choose to exercise a power where they have rescinded its means. Would our civil servants allow a minister to issue an order for a referendum that the eu had declared was illegal? Probably not if one takes the current assertions of ministers as the reality.

The EU has no power to declare a referendum illegal.

They haven't issued a law to do it, yet.

However they have certainly demonstrated a power to do so. eg when they sacked one of the recent greek governments for simply saying they would hold a ref.

No government was sacked, a referendum was held.

Papandreou

He cancelled the referendum after significant push-back from senior ministers in his government.

CarlottaVance said:

shiney2 said:

CarlottaVance said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

CarlottaVance said:

shiney2 said:

CarlottaVance said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

CarlottaVance said:

shiney2 said:

Hello Britain!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0pwXLtvt2w&feature=youtu.be

A perfect start!

Made by 'piffle'

An apposite name....

Or would 'Project Rubbish Fear' be even more so?

Forced adoption of the Euro?
Forced end of common law/jury trials?
Forced accession to Schengen?

Is this a message VoteLeave support?

It's the policy of influential REMAINERS - check out Heseltine, Mandelson etc

We're for national parliamentary democracy . Are you?

I am and I see no threat to it from continued EU membership. We are sovereign, as this referendum demonstrates.

He's flailing.

Chapter 1

Article 67

1. The Union shall constitute an area of freedom, security and justice with respect for fundamental rights and the different legal systems and traditions of the Member States.

'respect for' clearly does not prevent their supercession. eg prisoner voting 'rights'.

Where does it say 'end of jury trials'?

It doesn't

You're embarrassing yourself.....

I think you have failed to understand the subordinate position of nations in the eu law making process. The eu institutions (courts, commission etc) make law, now and in the future, that we have agreed to implement.

The key word being "agreed"

Yep that's what Heath originally put into law.

And since then we have elected Parliaments that have been happy to follow that. Last year we elected a Parliament that voted for legislation to enable the referendum. And lo and behold one is taking place.

Its still gloriously unclear who will physically stop us from holding a referendum in future.....

Well, to you, obv.

Do tell......with a link, preferably.....

In the meantime, here's a link that might help you:

http://www.bacofoil.co.uk

So, you were caught repeating a straw man, and then didn't understand eu law and instutions are superior..

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

CarlottaVance said:

shiney2 said:

Hello Britain!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0pwXLtvt2w&feature=youtu.be

A perfect start!

Made by 'piffle'

An apposite name....

Or would 'Project Rubbish Fear' be even more so?

Forced adoption of the Euro?
Forced end of common law/jury trials?
Forced accession to Schengen?

Is this a message VoteLeave support?

It's the policy of influential REMAINERS - check out Heseltine, Mandelson etc

We're for national parliamentary democracy . Are you?

I am and I see no threat to it from continued EU membership. We are sovereign, as this referendum demonstrates.

We are sovereign in any area until it becomes an EU Competence. Then we are not.

As and when referendums become an eu competence, we will hold them when we are permitted to.

That is only the case until we decide otherwise, as this referendum shows.

I doubt we could choose to exercise a power where they have rescinded its means. Would our civil servants allow a minister to issue an order for a referendum that the eu had declared was illegal? Probably not if one takes the current assertions of ministers as the reality.

The EU has no power to declare a referendum illegal.

They haven't issued a law to do it, yet.

However they have certainly demonstrated a power to do so. eg when they sacked one of the recent greek governments for simply saying they would hold a ref.

No government was sacked, a referendum was held.

Papandreou

He cancelled the referendum after significant push-back from senior ministers in his government.

I am pushed back,
you retire
he is sacked.

He made the statement, he was gone in days.

correlation is causation (here)

CarlottaVance said:

Its still gloriously unclear who will physically stop us from holding a referendum in future.....

The army of the European Superstate, surely?

Fulfilling Hitler's vision...

CarlottaVance said:

shiney2 said:

So, you were caught repeating a straw man, and then didn't understand eu law and instutions are superior..

No - you've been caught out mis-quoting the Lisbon Treaty then waving 'bad stuff will happen' when confronted with the facts.

Perhaps you'd still like to post a link to who will physically stop us from holding another referendum at a time of our own choosing?

No?

Thought not.....

I made no quotes from the lisbon treaty. Yet you misquoted 3 times from a 3min video to construct strawmen

Are you a REMAINer by any chance?

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

CarlottaVance said:

shiney2 said:

Hello Britain!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0pwXLtvt2w&feature=youtu.be

A perfect start!

Made by 'piffle'

An apposite name....

Or would 'Project Rubbish Fear' be even more so?

Forced adoption of the Euro?
Forced end of common law/jury trials?
Forced accession to Schengen?

Is this a message VoteLeave support?

It's the policy of influential REMAINERS - check out Heseltine, Mandelson etc

We're for national parliamentary democracy . Are you?

I am and I see no threat to it from continued EU membership. We are sovereign, as this referendum demonstrates.

We are sovereign in any area until it becomes an EU Competence. Then we are not.

As and when referendums become an eu competence, we will hold them when we are permitted to.

That is only the case until we decide otherwise, as this referendum shows.

I doubt we could choose to exercise a power where they have rescinded its means. Would our civil servants allow a minister to issue an order for a referendum that the eu had declared was illegal? Probably not if one takes the current assertions of ministers as the reality.

The EU has no power to declare a referendum illegal.

They haven't issued a law to do it, yet.

However they have certainly demonstrated a power to do so. eg when they sacked one of the recent greek governments for simply saying they would hold a ref.

No government was sacked, a referendum was held.

Papandreou

He cancelled the referendum after significant push-back from senior ministers in his government.

I am pushed back,
you retire
he is sacked.

He made the statement, he was gone in days.

correlation is causation (here)

His cabinet rebelled. Did the EU force Mrs T out? Somehow I think I may know your answer :-)

Scott_P said:

CarlottaVance said:

Its still gloriously unclear who will physically stop us from holding a referendum in future.....

Fulfilling Hitler's vision...

I see the 'H-word' makes the front page of the Times and i today......do you think LEAVErs will let it drop, or continue their Ken strategy?

ydoethur said:

SouthamObserver said:

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

You can wheel in as many of the great and good as you like but in a world where CEOs trough salaries 150* that of their employees (hat tip Boris) all the likes of Lagarde, Carney and Obama are seen as is mill owners trying to feed propaganda to further they and their Oligarchies nests.

It's great to see that Boris has suddenly discovered the earnings gap. But it's unclear how that squares with his oft-stated belief that very rich people should be paying even less tax than they do now.

Consistency was never his long suit though was it? I seem to remember he used to talk a lot about the importance of family life and supporting marriage as well...

Yep, Boris is so eaten up with concern about this issue that he has never taken any steps as either an MP or as London mayor to do anything about it.

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

SouthamObserver said:

shiney2 said:

CarlottaVance said:

shiney2 said:

Hello Britain!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0pwXLtvt2w&feature=youtu.be

A perfect start!

Made by 'piffle'

An apposite name....

Or would 'Project Rubbish Fear' be even more so?

Forced adoption of the Euro?
Forced end of common law/jury trials?
Forced accession to Schengen?

Is this a message VoteLeave support?

It's the policy of influential REMAINERS - check out Heseltine, Mandelson etc

We're for national parliamentary democracy . Are you?

I am and I see no threat to it from continued EU membership. We are sovereign, as this referendum demonstrates.

We are sovereign in any area until it becomes an EU Competence. Then we are not.

As and when referendums become an eu competence, we will hold them when we are permitted to.

That is only the case until we decide otherwise, as this referendum shows.

I doubt we could choose to exercise a power where they have rescinded its means. Would our civil servants allow a minister to issue an order for a referendum that the eu had declared was illegal? Probably not if one takes the current assertions of ministers as the reality.

The EU has no power to declare a referendum illegal.

They haven't issued a law to do it, yet.

However they have certainly demonstrated a power to do so. eg when they sacked one of the recent greek governments for simply saying they would hold a ref.

No government was sacked, a referendum was held.

Papandreou

He cancelled the referendum after significant push-back from senior ministers in his government.

I am pushed back,
you retire
he is sacked.

He made the statement, he was gone in days.

correlation is causation (here)

His cabinet rebelled. Did the EU force Mrs T out? Somehow I think I may know your answer :-)

I am pushed back,
you retire
he is sacked.

They rebel

You talk piffle :-)

shiney2 said:

CarlottaVance said:

shiney2 said:

So, you were caught repeating a straw man, and then didn't understand eu law and instutions are superior..

No - you've been caught out mis-quoting the Lisbon Treaty then waving 'bad stuff will happen' when confronted with the facts.

Perhaps you'd still like to post a link to who will physically stop us from holding another referendum at a time of our own choosing?

No?

Thought not.....

I made no quotes from the lisbon treaty.

When asked for proof of the claims in the PIFFLE video you cited the Lisbon Treaty.

The Lisbon Treaty directly contradicts those claims.

For a final time of asking...WHO is going to stop us from holding a referendum in future - and HOW?

Scott_P said:

CarlottaVance said:

When asked for proof of the claims in the PIFFLE video you cited the Lisbon Treaty.

The Lisbon Treaty directly contradicts those claims.

It reads differently when wearing a tinfoil hat

I think he's run out......I did post a link to bacofoil.....just trying to be helpful.....

Plato_Says said:

I wouldn't normally cite Heffer, however he's making the Boris point too. DT clearly thinks this is a winner with their readers.

The curious thing about that argument, if you agree with it, is that Boris is proposing that instead of standing up to the Germans like Churchill we run away and hide.

It's bizarre

I fear Dan may lose some fans:

Donald Trump is not fit to lead the free world. He is a narcissistic, thin-skinned bully, a serial liar, a man who shows not the slightest respect for the office to which he aspires.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/the-real-reason-donald-trump-is-unfit-to-be-president/article/2591147?custom_click=rss

NickPalmer said:

blackburn63 said:

Well well well, Cameron pleading with Labour voters to save his skin, did anyone predict that would happen?

He's fucked, well and truly, a laughing stock.

Next up, Osborne writing in the Morning Star?

Comments under the line could be fun...

Plato_Says said:

I wouldn't normally cite Heffer, however he's making the Boris point too. DT clearly thinks this is a winner with their readers.

...Dr Savouri also points out that if we stay in the EU there will be huge costs for us from all this chaos, despite being out of the eurozone. “Having renewed our vows to remain in the EU 'through sickness and in health’ we will be required to contribute to funding the fiscal efforts being applied to our ever more sickly EU partners,” he writes. The costs will be huge, and once we have committed ourselves to remain we will be forced to join the communal effort to save ailing partners. He calls it “the EU’s version of a Rooseveltian New Deal.”

...Ask the Greeks if you think I exaggerate: Germany runs Europe without firing a shot. It forces far weaker partners to stay in a currency zone that is crippling them, and uses its economic muscle to dictate immigration and other key policies. And if you believe the Germans won’t take a UK vote to stay in as a signal to continue and intensify their control over the EU, and to make us help pay for its baleful effects, then you aren’t paying attention. It’s not war we should fear, but what the Germans do in peace.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/15/the-fourth-reich-is-here---without-a-shot-being-fired/



Indeed. If the referendum were just being held among Telegraph readers the result would not be in doubt.

foxinsoxuk said:

SouthamObserver said:

ydoethur said:

SouthamObserver said:

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

You can wheel in as many of the great and good as you like but in a world where CEOs trough salaries 150* that of their employees (hat tip Boris) all the likes of Lagarde, Carney and Obama are seen as is mill owners trying to feed propaganda to further they and their Oligarchies nests.

It's great to see that Boris has suddenly discovered the earnings gap. But it's unclear how that squares with his oft-stated belief that very rich people should be paying even less tax than they do now.

Consistency was never his long suit though was it? I seem to remember he used to talk a lot about the importance of family life and supporting marriage as well...

Yep, Boris is so eaten up with concern about this issue that he has never taken any steps as either an MP or as London mayor to do anything about it.

That would be the same Boris leading the Leave campaign who described himself eight months ago as "basically pro immigration" and calling for an illegal immigrant amnesty?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3264239/Let-long-term-illegals-stay-UK-says-Boris-London-mayor-believes-immigrants-12-years-granted-amnesty.html

Of course the prevailing wind was different that day...

But, but, but ... Hitler

Of course, like many Leavers on here, eight months ago Boris was a fully signed up supporter og government fiscal and economic policies predicated on EU membership and large scale immigration.

shiney2 said:

CarlottaVance said:

shiney2 said:

Papandreou

On 31 October, Papandreou announced his government's plans to hold a referendum on the acceptance of the terms of a eurozone bailout deal. The referendum was to be held in December 2011 or January 2012. However, following the insistence of EU leaders at the G20 summit in Cannes that the referendum should be on Greece's continued membership of the eurozone, and severe criticism of such a referendum by Greek Finance Minister Venizelos and within parliament, Papandreou scrapped the plan on 3 November.

On 5 November, his government only narrowly won a confidence vote in parliament and opposition leader Antonis Samaras called for immediate elections. The next day Papandreou met with opposition leaders trying to reach an agreement on the formation of an interim national unity government. However, Samaras gave in only after Papandreou agreed to step aside, allowing the EU bailout to proceed and paving the way for elections on 19 February 2012. Both the Communist Party (KKE) and the leftist SYRIZA coalition had refused Papandreou's invitation to join talks on a new unity government.

After several days of intense negotiations, the two major parties along with the Popular Orthodox Rally agreed to form a grand coalition headed by former Vice President of the European Central Bank Lucas Papademos. On 10 November, George Papandreou formally resigned as Prime Minister of Greece. The new coalition cabinet and Prime Minister Lucas Papademos were formally sworn in on 11 November 2011.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Papandreou#Called-off_referendum_and_stepping_aside

Looks like 'Greek domestic politics' to me......

"following the insistence of EU leaders "

.

You are making things up - the EU leaders didn't insist Papendreou be fired - as you claimed - the Greeks did that themselves.

Piffle.....

A former head of the armed forces has led an attack on Boris Johnson for claiming that the European Union was pursuing a similar goal to Hitler.

Mr Johnson’s suggestion that both had been attempting to unify Europe — using “different methods” — was met by scorn and mockery from pro-EU campaigners.

Field Marshal Lord Bramall, who took part in the Normandy landings, said that the comparison was “simply laughable”, while others said the comments showed that the former mayor of London was not a suitable candidate to become prime minister.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/field-marshal-attacks-boris-for-comparing-eu-to-hitler-xjnxpvljs

CarlottaVance said:

shiney2 said:

CarlottaVance said:

shiney2 said:

Papandreou

On 31 October, Papandreou announced his government's plans to hold a referendum on the acceptance of the terms of a eurozone bailout deal. The referendum was to be held in December 2011 or January 2012. However, following the insistence of EU leaders at the G20 summit in Cannes that the referendum should be on Greece's continued membership of the eurozone, and severe criticism of such a referendum by Greek Finance Minister Venizelos and within parliament, Papandreou scrapped the plan on 3 November.

On 5 November, his government only narrowly won a confidence vote in parliament and opposition leader Antonis Samaras called for immediate elections. The next day Papandreou met with opposition leaders trying to reach an agreement on the formation of an interim national unity government. However, Samaras gave in only after Papandreou agreed to step aside, allowing the EU bailout to proceed and paving the way for elections on 19 February 2012. Both the Communist Party (KKE) and the leftist SYRIZA coalition had refused Papandreou's invitation to join talks on a new unity government.

After several days of intense negotiations, the two major parties along with the Popular Orthodox Rally agreed to form a grand coalition headed by former Vice President of the European Central Bank Lucas Papademos. On 10 November, George Papandreou formally resigned as Prime Minister of Greece. The new coalition cabinet and Prime Minister Lucas Papademos were formally sworn in on 11 November 2011.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Papandreou#Called-off_referendum_and_stepping_aside

Looks like 'Greek domestic politics' to me......

"following the insistence of EU leaders "

.

You are making things up - the EU leaders didn't insist Papendreou be fired - as you claimed - the Greeks did that themselves.

Piffle.....

They simply erected an impossible demand, forced him out, and no doubt co-incidently, the ref was aborted.

You aren't very good at this are you?

Leave should put their intellectual inspiration up to debate against David Cameron. And I'm sure Stan Boardman could do with the extra publicity at present.

shiney2 said:

CarlottaVance said:

shiney2 said:

CarlottaVance said:

shiney2 said:

Papandreou

On 31 October, Papandreou announced his government's plans to hold a referendum on the acceptance of the terms of a eurozone bailout deal. The referendum was to be held in December 2011 or January 2012. However, following the insistence of EU leaders at the G20 summit in Cannes that the referendum should be on Greece's continued membership of the eurozone, and severe criticism of such a referendum by Greek Finance Minister Venizelos and within parliament, Papandreou scrapped the plan on 3 November.

On 5 November, his government only narrowly won a confidence vote in parliament and opposition leader Antonis Samaras called for immediate elections. The next day Papandreou met with opposition leaders trying to reach an agreement on the formation of an interim national unity government. However, Samaras gave in only after Papandreou agreed to step aside, allowing the EU bailout to proceed and paving the way for elections on 19 February 2012. Both the Communist Party (KKE) and the leftist SYRIZA coalition had refused Papandreou's invitation to join talks on a new unity government.

After several days of intense negotiations, the two major parties along with the Popular Orthodox Rally agreed to form a grand coalition headed by former Vice President of the European Central Bank Lucas Papademos. On 10 November, George Papandreou formally resigned as Prime Minister of Greece. The new coalition cabinet and Prime Minister Lucas Papademos were formally sworn in on 11 November 2011.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Papandreou#Called-off_referendum_and_stepping_aside

Looks like 'Greek domestic politics' to me......

"following the insistence of EU leaders "

.

You are making things up - the EU leaders didn't insist Papendreou be fired - as you claimed - the Greeks did that themselves.

Piffle.....

You aren't very good at this are you?

When it comes to 'making stuff up' and 'ignoring evidence' I willingly concede your superiority....

The whole tenor of Remain vs Leave is becoming clearer by the day. The same message is popping up in almost every statement.

Andrea Leadsom criticism of BoE... “They are not there to promote financial instability, but that is what they’ve done,” she told the BBC. “It is institutional ganging up on the poor British voter.”

Roger Bootle is spot on in the Telegraph...

'First, if the benefits of the single market are so enormous, then why is it that over recent years countries all around the world have increased their exports into the single market at a faster rate than most single market members?

Second, if the single market is of such overwhelming importance, why are so many of its members in a terrible state? Why is the Greek economy not carried forward on a wave of prosperity unleashed by the absence of form-filling and checking at borders?

Third, if trade deals are so important, why does the UK do such a huge amount of trade with countries that it doesn’t currently have a trade deal with – including America? '


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/05/15/yes-the-imf-and-200-plus-economists-can-be-wrong/

Has everybody seen this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0pwXLtvt2w&feature=youtu.be

Its very good!

ThreeQuidder said:

Scott_P said:

Plato_Says said:

I wouldn't normally cite Heffer, however he's making the Boris point too. DT clearly thinks this is a winner with their readers.

The curious thing about that argument, if you agree with it, is that Boris is proposing that instead of standing up to the Germans like Churchill we run away and hide.

It's bizarre

(2) Vote to Remain and sign up to the agenda, joining Schengen and the Euro as soon as possible and certainly within 5 years;

Who is advocating that?

(Apart from tin-foil deprived LEAVErs.....)

Morris_Dancer said:

Good morning, everyone.

F1: my post-race analysis of a thrilling race in Spain is up here:
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/spain-post-race-analysis-2016.html

A 250/1 winner. That must be a PB record. Congratulations.

Mr. Meeks, thanks

Upon reflection, both that and the 8 winner I had on Ricciardo leading lap 1 were simply lucky (never thought the two Mercedes would both fail to finish the first lap). But if luck's going to play a role, I don't mind if it's helpful.

runnymede said:

ThreeQuidder said:

Scott_P said:

Plato_Says said:

I wouldn't normally cite Heffer, however he's making the Boris point too. DT clearly thinks this is a winner with their readers.

The curious thing about that argument, if you agree with it, is that Boris is proposing that instead of standing up to the Germans like Churchill we run away and hide.

It's bizarre

It's been clearly demonstrated that we are unable to deflect the EU from its centralising/federaling agenda.

Given that we're voting in the full knowledge of this fact, there are three options:

(1) Vote to Remain, and carry on as we have been, carping about and/or resisting centralisation in (as it will be seen in other EU capitals) direct contradiction to the public vote, thus frustrating and irritating other EU leaders;
(2) Vote to Remain and sign up to the agenda, joining Schengen and the Euro as soon as possible and certainly within 5 years;
(3) Vote to Leave.

I can't understand why so many people think option 1 is the best.

Because they really favour (2) but (mostly) won't say so in public.

Quite - the only three seem to be Ken Clarke, Heseltine and Jeremy Clarkeson.

ThreeQuidder said:

Scott_P said:

Plato_Says said:

I wouldn't normally cite Heffer, however he's making the Boris point too. DT clearly thinks this is a winner with their readers.

The curious thing about that argument, if you agree with it, is that Boris is proposing that instead of standing up to the Germans like Churchill we run away and hide.

It's bizarre

It's been clearly demonstrated that we are unable to deflect the EU from its centralising/federaling agenda.

Given that we're voting in the full knowledge of this fact, there are three options:

(1) Vote to Remain, and carry on as we have been, carping about and/or resisting centralisation in (as it will be seen in other EU capitals) direct contradiction to the public vote, thus frustrating and irritating other EU leaders;
(2) Vote to Remain and sign up to the agenda, joining Schengen and the Euro as soon as possible and certainly within 5 years;
(3) Vote to Leave.

I can't understand why so many people think option 1 is the best.

Because Option 3 is being propounded by people who think that Germany is establishing a Fourth Reich.

CarlottaVance said:

Scott_P said:

CarlottaVance said:

Its still gloriously unclear who will physically stop us from holding a referendum in future.....

Fulfilling Hitler's vision...

I see the 'H-word' makes the front page of the Times and i today......do you think LEAVErs will let it drop, or continue their Ken strategy?

Chuckle Brothers Tag team are working early today

shiney2 said:

Has everybody seen this?

Its very good!

Would you like absolute power, Shiney? That's absolute as in "absolutely give me £10 billion for every penny of tax I've paid -and all the world's pretty girls, too, please". (Unless of course you prefer boys, or whatever...)

If you missed it, good argument from Gisela

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/15/labour-pro-eu-stance-brexit-is-recruitment-agent-for-ukip

As the Greek government legislates for the latest set of tough spending cuts and reforms demanded in return for continuing to receive bailout funds from its eurozone partners, Stuart said: “I find it extraordinary that the left in particular is almost prepared to say: 50% youth unemployment is a price worth paying for EU integration. The southern Mediterranean is in the process of sacrificing an entire generation of their youth for something which may not work.”

ThreeQuidder said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ThreeQuidder said:

Scott_P said:

Plato_Says said:

I wouldn't normally cite Heffer, however he's making the Boris point too. DT clearly thinks this is a winner with their readers.

The curious thing about that argument, if you agree with it, is that Boris is proposing that instead of standing up to the Germans like Churchill we run away and hide.

It's bizarre

It's been clearly demonstrated that we are unable to deflect the EU from its centralising/federaling agenda.

Given that we're voting in the full knowledge of this fact, there are three options:

(1) Vote to Remain, and carry on as we have been, carping about and/or resisting centralisation in (as it will be seen in other EU capitals) direct contradiction to the public vote, thus frustrating and irritating other EU leaders;
(2) Vote to Remain and sign up to the agenda, joining Schengen and the Euro as soon as possible and certainly within 5 years;
(3) Vote to Leave.

I can't understand why so many people think option 1 is the best.

Because Option 3 is being propounded by people who think that Germany is establishing a Fourth Reich.

Which is a logical fallacy.

Not at all. You don't trust children running with scissors and you don't trust the future direction of the country to people who howl at the moon. Since it would be inevitable after a Leave vote that the government would be controlled by Leavers, if you believe that there are more important things than membership of the EU (like 95% of the population), such considerations are much more important.

Plato_Says said:

If you missed it, good argument from Gisela

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/15/labour-pro-eu-stance-brexit-is-recruitment-agent-for-ukip

As the Greek government legislates for the latest set of tough spending cuts and reforms demanded in return for continuing to receive bailout funds from its eurozone partners, Stuart said: “I find it extraordinary that the left in particular is almost prepared to say: 50% youth unemployment is a price worth paying for EU integration. The southern Mediterranean is in the process of sacrificing an entire generation of their youth for something which may not work.”

Clearly one of the grown ups on the LEAVE side - they should make more use of her.

Her Greek argument however, ignores the Greeks' own role (trans 'lying about their finances') in their own mis-fortune.....

DavidL

This is really the point that I was making last week. The Single Market appears to have given us and indeed the rest of the EU very little. When it was introduced it was thought that it would be a great engine for growth and employment. Economic theory supports that in that freer trade should produce more trade.

But it hasn't worked for the majority. It has created a massive problem of structural unemployment in too many EU countries, it has created a major and growing trade deficit for the UK which threatens the stability of our economy. It has done almost nothing to create the equivalent of the new American super corporations such as Google and Amazon.

Why has it failed? I think it is because overregulation has increased barriers to entry and inhibited innovation. Low tariffs (in themselves a good thing) have also meant that the majority of the benefits of a single market have gone beyond the EU with market penetration made easier. Germany's economic policies of begger my neighbour running public sector surpluses to restrain domestic demand have not helped.

This is not really a Leave point. We will still have many of these problems whether we stay or leave but it is very important to work out what is actually to our advantage.


-------------------------------------------------

Yes, as I have repeatedly argued on here over recent weeks, the value of the Single Market to the UK is greatly exaggerated.

More broadly, the whole area of estimating 'border effects' on foreign trade has a history of extreme unreliability and (often) wild exaggeration.

Any modelling approach that can produce estimates of 200%, then 17%, then 0% for trade increases from broadly the same model but with a few tweaks cannot be considered robust.

Yet it is precisely this difficult, even dubious, area of economics on which the government's economic case rests.

The reasons the single market has delivered so little are straightforward enough -

1) The EU is a slow growth area, painfully so over the last decade or so. This won't change

2) The EU economies were already closely linked by trade before the single market came in

3) The single market has also brought with it increased product market regulation and greater barriers to entry in markets, holding back productivity growth and contributing to 1)

ThreeQuidder said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ThreeQuidder said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ThreeQuidder said:

Scott_P said:

Plato_Says said:

I wouldn't normally cite Heffer, however he's making the Boris point too. DT clearly thinks this is a winner with their readers.

The curious thing about that argument, if you agree with it, is that Boris is proposing that instead of standing up to the Germans like Churchill we run away and hide.

It's bizarre

It's been clearly demonstrated that we are unable to deflect the EU from its centralising/federaling agenda.

Given that we're voting in the full knowledge of this fact, there are three options:

(1) Vote to Remain, and carry on as we have been, carping about and/or resisting centralisation in (as it will be seen in other EU capitals) direct contradiction to the public vote, thus frustrating and irritating other EU leaders;
(2) Vote to Remain and sign up to the agenda, joining Schengen and the Euro as soon as possible and certainly within 5 years;
(3) Vote to Leave.

I can't understand why so many people think option 1 is the best.

Because Option 3 is being propounded by people who think that Germany is establishing a Fourth Reich.

Which is a logical fallacy.

Not at all.

Yes it is: judging an argument by some of the other beliefs of some of the people making it is just about the worst logical fallacy in the book.

AlastairMeeks said:

Since it would be inevitable after a Leave vote that the government would be controlled by Leavers

It's inevitable that after a Leave vote the government would be controlled by the British people through the medium of parliamentary elections, just like now. And I trust the British people on the whole to make sensible decisions in parliamentary elections.

Not, potentially, for the next four years. Why should I risk giving Liam Fox, Iain Duncan Smith or Jacob Rees-Mogg more power?

ThreeQuidder said:

Scott_P said:

Plato_Says said:

I wouldn't normally cite Heffer, however he's making the Boris point too. DT clearly thinks this is a winner with their readers.

The curious thing about that argument, if you agree with it, is that Boris is proposing that instead of standing up to the Germans like Churchill we run away and hide.

It's bizarre

It's been clearly demonstrated that we are unable to deflect the EU from its centralising/federaling agenda.

Given that we're voting in the full knowledge of this fact, there are three options:

(1) Vote to Remain, and carry on as we have been, carping about and/or resisting centralisation in (as it will be seen in other EU capitals) direct contradiction to the public vote, thus frustrating and irritating other EU leaders;
(2) Vote to Remain and sign up to the agenda, joining Schengen and the Euro as soon as possible and certainly within 5 years;
(3) Vote to Leave.

I can't understand why so many people think option 1 is the best.

ThreeQuidder said:

Scott_P said:

Plato_Says said:

I wouldn't normally cite Heffer, however he's making the Boris point too. DT clearly thinks this is a winner with their readers.

The curious thing about that argument, if you agree with it, is that Boris is proposing that instead of standing up to the Germans like Churchill we run away and hide.

It's bizarre

It's been clearly demonstrated that we are unable to deflect the EU from its centralising/federaling agenda.

Given that we're voting in the full knowledge of this fact, there are three options:

(1) Vote to Remain, and carry on as we have been, carping about and/or resisting centralisation in (as it will be seen in other EU capitals) direct contradiction to the public vote, thus frustrating and irritating other EU leaders;
(2) Vote to Remain and sign up to the agenda, joining Schengen and the Euro as soon as possible and certainly within 5 years;
(3) Vote to Leave.

I can't understand why so many people think option 1 is the best.

Given the rise of Le Pen, Wilders, the Afd etc option 1 will become increasingly the norm in the EU not to mention Nordic nations and Eastern European nations also outside the eurozone

Plato_Says said:

Just a reminder
https://twitter.com/JunckerEU/status/468847798725918720

Much different to a European Rapid Reaction Force?

ThreeQuidder said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ThreeQuidder said:

AlastairMeeks said:

ThreeQuidder said:

Scott_P said:

Plato_Says said:

I wouldn't normally cite Heffer, however he's making the Boris point too. DT clearly thinks this is a winner with their readers.

The curious thing about that argument, if you agree with it, is that Boris is proposing that instead of standing up to the Germans like Churchill we run away and hide.

It's bizarre

It's been clearly demonstrated that we are unable to deflect the EU from its centralising/federaling agenda.

Given that we're voting in the full knowledge of this fact, there are three options:

(1) Vote to Remain, and carry on as we have been, carping about and/or resisting centralisation in (as it will be seen in other EU capitals) direct contradiction to the public vote, thus frustrating and irritating other EU leaders;
(2) Vote to Remain and sign up to the agenda, joining Schengen and the Euro as soon as possible and certainly within 5 years;
(3) Vote to Leave.

I can't understand why so many people think option 1 is the best.

Because Option 3 is being propounded by people who think that Germany is establishing a Fourth Reich.

Which is a logical fallacy.

Not at all.

Yes it is: judging an argument by some of the other beliefs of some of the people making it is just about the worst logical fallacy in the book.

AlastairMeeks said:

Since it would be inevitable after a Leave vote that the government would be controlled by Leavers

It's inevitable that after a Leave vote the government would be controlled by the British people through the medium of parliamentary elections, just like now. And I trust the British people on the whole to make sensible decisions in parliamentary elections.

Imagine the population losing their minds and electing an entire legislature of It's Grim Up North London characters.

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. HYUFD, best time to kill a dragon is when its newly hatched.

The EU was newly hatched decades ago

FFS http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2016/all-day-today

On 16 May, BBC News will host a day of special live coverage examining how the movement of people is changing the world we live in and how our economies develop.

BBC News World On The Move will be broadcast from the BBC Radio Theatre across some of the BBC’s best-known shows, including Radio 4’s Today programme and Start The Week, alongside a live topical radio drama.

As one of the most dominant, global issues of our time, the discussion will impartially cover how migration is changing our world, and draw the BBC’s global audience into the conversation on the day...

Scott_P said:

Plato_Says said:

I wouldn't normally cite Heffer, however he's making the Boris point too. DT clearly thinks this is a winner with their readers.

The curious thing about that argument, if you agree with it, is that Boris is proposing that instead of standing up to the Germans like Churchill we run away and hide.

It's bizarre

How exactly did Cameron stand up to the Germans when Merkel unilaterally opened the EU's borders to anyone who could get on a boat from Turkey? There was no democratic process there, no discussion with fellow EU members. They just did what Germany wanted - and fuck the rest of you...

Which number Reich do you wish to ascribe that attitude to?