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Comments
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You cannot compartmentalise international relations in that way. Sanctions against Russia are undertaken at an EU level, for example.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Our NATO membership is NOT at stake on June 23rd.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.0 -
I'm sure Leave will be able to rebut his comments.Charles said:
Cameron's Prime Minister. His words carry more weight.TheScreamingEagles said:
My views haven't changed from this morning's thread.Casino_Royale said:
If you really think that, then why are you defending the PM lowering himself to their level?TheScreamingEagles said:
The Armed Forces Minister (and Leaver) a few weeks ago made the opposite argument, that Remaining would lead to conflict/war.Casino_Royale said:
David Cameron is our Prime Minister.TheScreamingEagles said:
Perhaps you're similarly aghast to what Leaver Tory MP Julian Lewis has also said on that same front page?Casino_Royale said:
I honestly can't believe I just read that.runnymede said:
The PM continues to treat the voters as morons..Casino_Royale said:
I am sitting here with my mouth aghast.
Seriously, TSE, you need to get in touch with your friends at Remain and tell them to get a grip.
They're in danger of making themselves a laughing stock.
I'm assuming Leave made themselves a laughing stock then?
You've gone totally deaf on the EU referendum. You are far too emotionally and personally close to CCHQ to be objective on the matter.
Your only answers to criticisms are whataboutism and lookoverthere; you're not even thinking anymore.
If you don't see how the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom publicly implying in his major kick-off speech of the campaign that a vote for Brexit "risks war" is a problem, and grossly irresponsible, then this campaign is going to have far-reaching consequences, whatever the result, way way down the line.
All I'm pointing out is the hypocrisy of Leavers on here, when Leavers make the same argument for Leave as Dave has done, there's nothing but silence, but when Dave does it, he's a nutcase etc.0 -
When I was in Arnhem the other day, my European friends all told me "If you vote for Brexit, this will surely happen again."0
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But it's NATO forces in Poland and the Baltics, for example.AlastairMeeks said:
You cannot compartmentalise international relations in that way. Sanctions against Russia are undertaken at an EU level, for example.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Our NATO membership is NOT at stake on June 23rd.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.0 -
What scares me is batty Leavers thinking that they can have everything they want without any consequences. Most of us grow out of that in our teens, but Leave are advocating it as a way of running the country.Mortimer said:
The correct action is to act on the will of the people, which is what will happen.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Does Putin scare you? The Remainiacs I know are all scared of something. Leavers seem far more hopeful. Presumably that is why the only justification most of the former can give for staying is Project Fear.0 -
No, it won't make them more compromised, or pusillanimous.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Brexit will be a distraction for the EU, and it's quite possible that Putin will seek to take advantage, probably in Eastern Ukraine. But that game's been played already and Ukraine has lost - it's just a matter of when Russia closes out the details.
I doubt Russia will pressure the Baltics or Turkey - that would be too much even for Obama to ignore.0 -
Anyhoo, if Leave weren't prepared for this, then they've got real issues.
I did warn them come May the 9th, they were about to receive a fearsome onslaught from Dave and the rest of the non Tory Remain grouping.
A blind man, with a blind dog in a power cut, could have seen this coming.0 -
The pound a few years ago was basically at Euro equivalent.viewcode said:
You know that bit where anorexics look in the mirror and see a really fat girl? The pound is currently as weak as a newborn fawn with a cough.weejonnie said:
I thought we wanted a weaker pound to encourage exports.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Rates will rise to defend the pound and probably on an exit vote fairly soon afterSpeedy said:
Rates are not going to rise as long as there is deflation, you need inflation rates to rise way above 2% while GDP growth is healthy to see a rise in rates.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Rise in mortgage cost. Both my children have expressed concern that leaving may cause rates to risePlato_Says said:Osborne unwittingly comes up with good reason to vote Leave https://t.co/t17PaxIjXy
I don't think we are going to see neither in today's world of low investment and low demand regardless of the EU ref. outcome.0 -
It isn't often that the PM outdoes the Express for ridiculous headlines.0
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War is diplomacy by other means. I haven't seen anyone on the Leave side rule out threatening to nuke Brussels if we don't get a good enough trade deal. We should be told...0
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I have been campaigning for Leave for weeks. Once that is over I will campaign for whichever party has the best chance of defeating the Tories at whatever elections we have in the future. I will enjoy your squeals of anguish when that day comes.TheScreamingEagles said:
A typo on my part, but for the avoidance of doubt, I so hope you're campaigning for Leave.0 -
Canada, the US, Japan, Australia and the G7 were all perfectly capable of applying sanctions against Russia without the EU:AlastairMeeks said:
You cannot compartmentalise international relations in that way. Sanctions against Russia are undertaken at an EU level, for example.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Our NATO membership is NOT at stake on June 23rd.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_sanctions_during_the_Ukrainian_crisis
We will be the same following Brexit.0 -
He appears to have gone a bit mad.MarkHopkins said:A little while ago, Cameron was fine with Britain leaving the EU, and he "ruled nothing out" if the renegotiation failed.
Now apparently Leave means Armageddon.
"FFS" is an expression one could respond with.0 -
Anti-semite Adolf believed in a single European Superstate!glw said:
And I was wrong to agree that peak ridiculousness had been reached. Genocide — Cameron's only a small step away from fulfilling Godwin's law.Tykejohnno said:He's a nutter.
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Whatever the result of the referendum Cameron will have to "depart" quickly I'd have thought? I assume he knows and is planning for a quick exit... He's basically blown all his credibility, his reputation, his legacy and his Party for the EU (and he might still lose the referendum anyway)Casino_Royale said:
Quite so. And he's putting them at the centre of his keynote speech on day one of the primary campaign period.Charles said:
Cameron's Prime Minister. His words carry more weight.TheScreamingEagles said:
My views haven't changed from this morning's thread.Casino_Royale said:
If you really think that, then why are you defending the PM lowering himself to their level?TheScreamingEagles said:
The Armed Forces Minister (and Leaver) a few weeks ago made the opposite argument, that Remaining would lead to conflict/war.Casino_Royale said:
David Cameron is our Prime Minister.TheScreamingEagles said:
Perhaps you're similarly aghast to what Leaver Tory MP Julian Lewis has also said on that same front page?Casino_Royale said:
I honestly can't believe I just read that.runnymede said:
The PM continues to treat the voters as morons..Casino_Royale said:
I am sitting here with my mouth aghast.
Seriously, TSE, you need to get in touch with your friends at Remain and tell them to get a grip.
They're in danger of making themselves a laughing stock.
I'm assuming Leave made themselves a laughing stock then?
You've gone totally deaf on the EU referendum. You are far too emotionally and personally close to CCHQ to be objective on the matter.
Your only answers to criticisms are whataboutism and lookoverthere; you're not even thinking anymore.
If you don't see how the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom publicly implying in his major kick-off speech of the campaign that a vote for Brexit "risks war" is a problem, and grossly irresponsible, then this campaign is going to have far-reaching consequences, whatever the result, way way down the line.
All I'm pointing out is the hypocrisy of Leavers on here, when Leavers make the same argument for Leave as Dave has done, there's nothing but silence, but when Dave does it, he's a nutcase etc.
Grossly irresponsible.0 -
These continuous insults levelled against polite posters who happen to disagree with you might lead one to think that it is the democratic will of the people that scares you.AlastairMeeks said:
What scares me is batty Leavers thinking that they can have everything they want without any consequences. Most of us grow out of that in our teens, but Leave are advocating it as a way of running the country.Mortimer said:
The correct action is to act on the will of the people, which is what will happen.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Does Putin scare you? The Remainiacs I know are all scared of something. Leavers seem far more hopeful. Presumably that is why the only justification most of the former can give for staying is Project Fear.0 -
It's grounded in the same ludicrous universe that had Sadiq Khan as some sort of extremist. I can't understand why "Remain" are going down this route when "Leave" are stumbling about with the economic in, out, shake it all about arguments on the single market/economy.TheScreamingEagles said:Anyhoo, if Leave weren't prepared for this, then they've got real issues.
I did warn them come May the 9th, they were about to receive a fearsome onslaught from Dave and the rest of the non Tory Remain grouping.
A blind man, with a blind dog in a power cut, could have seen this coming.0 -
No, they are at a multinational level. The US is involved as well.AlastairMeeks said:
You cannot compartmentalise international relations in that way. Sanctions against Russia are undertaken at an EU level, for example.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Our NATO membership is NOT at stake on June 23rd.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Having the UK as a third party won't make much difference in practice. Not while Germany is busy screwing all of Eastern Europe with the Nordstream.0 -
So there are no countries outside the EU with sanctions against Russia?AlastairMeeks said:
You cannot compartmentalise international relations in that way. Sanctions against Russia are undertaken at an EU level, for example.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Our NATO membership is NOT at stake on June 23rd.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.0 -
With our current leader, sadly true.TheScreamingEagles said:Anyhoo, if Leave weren't prepared for this, then they've got real issues.
I did warn them come May the 9th, they were about to receive a fearsome onslaught from Dave and the rest of the non Tory Remain grouping.
A blind man, with a blind dog in a power cut, could have seen this coming.
I just fail to see why he had to overplay a strong hand so much; to the short, mid and long term detriment of the party.0 -
And that really is the level of stupidity that Cameron has stooped to.williamglenn said:War is diplomacy by other means. I haven't seen anyone on the Leave side rule out threatening to nuke Brussels if we don't get a good enough trade deal. We should be told...
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He should be more responsible. He's making inflammatory statements and trading favours from our allies to further his political objectives. Those actions have costs in the real world.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm sure Leave will be able to rebut his comments.Charles said:
Cameron's Prime Minister. His words carry more weight.TheScreamingEagles said:
My views haven't changed from this morning's thread.Casino_Royale said:
If you really think that, then why are you defending the PM lowering himself to their level?TheScreamingEagles said:
The Armed Forces Minister (and Leaver) a few weeks ago made the opposite argument, that Remaining would lead to conflict/war.Casino_Royale said:
David Cameron is our Prime Minister.TheScreamingEagles said:
Perhaps you're similarly aghast to what Leaver Tory MP Julian Lewis has also said on that same front page?Casino_Royale said:
I honestly can't believe I just read that.runnymede said:
The PM continues to treat the voters as morons..Casino_Royale said:
I am sitting here with my mouth aghast.
Seriously, TSE, you need to get in touch with your friends at Remain and tell them to get a grip.
They're in danger of making themselves a laughing stock.
I'm assuming Leave made themselves a laughing stock then?
You've gone totally deaf on the EU referendum. You are far too emotionally and personally close to CCHQ to be objective on the matter.
Your only answers to criticisms are whataboutism and lookoverthere; you're not even thinking anymore.
If you don't see how the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom publicly implying in his major kick-off speech of the campaign that a vote for Brexit "risks war" is a problem, and grossly irresponsible, then this campaign is going to have far-reaching consequences, whatever the result, way way down the line.
All I'm pointing out is the hypocrisy of Leavers on here, when Leavers make the same argument for Leave as Dave has done, there's nothing but silence, but when Dave does it, he's a nutcase etc.0 -
No. If I recall we only got off our arses when the Egyptians, Malaysians, Irish got a bit ansty or when the UN thought Korea would be a fun place to visit. But when it came to Europe we thought it was a bit forren and gave not two damns, 'cos the Russians had nukes and we thought it best not to care. So we let the Russians send secret police into Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Romania, West Germany, et al, stood and watched when the Russians sent tanks into Hungary, and let them destroy the Prague Spring. Good old us. Yay.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Were there any Anglo-European Wars between 1945 and 1973?AlastairMeeks said:I see that the site's hardcore Leavers are of the view that Britain can waltz out of the EU without any short, medium or long term damage to relations with other countries and without in any way destabilising international relations.
And then they suggest that this is beyond doubt. Remarkable.
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You knew the PM was going to make a complete fool of himself?TheScreamingEagles said:Anyhoo, if Leave weren't prepared for this, then they've got real issues.
I did warn them come May the 9th, they were about to receive a fearsome onslaught from Dave and the rest of the non Tory Remain grouping.
A blind man, with a blind dog in a power cut, could have seen this coming.
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Why do you keep insulting LEAVErs Mr Meeks? Is this because of the weakness of your arguments for REMAIN?AlastairMeeks said:
What scares me is batty Leavers thinking that they can have everything they want without any consequences. Most of us grow out of that in our teens, but Leave are advocating it as a way of running the country.Mortimer said:
The correct action is to act on the will of the people, which is what will happen.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Does Putin scare you? The Remainiacs I know are all scared of something. Leavers seem far more hopeful. Presumably that is why the only justification most of the former can give for staying is Project Fear.
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Lets see what he says tomorrow.Plato_Says said:
Throwing a dead war pig may distract from Boris, but it's lasting stupidity will be remembered.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The telegraph, mail and times have made an issue of this before David Cameron has spoken but one thing it has done is to put the spotlight on him tomorrow and diminish Boris's big speech. We will see how this pans outRichard_Tyndall said:
More chance of accuracy and honesty from the Telegraph than there is from Cameron.matt said:
It's the telegraph. The chances of honesty or accuracy are limited.GIN1138 said:
David Cameron - From Mad To Worse!Plato_Says said:0 -
Indeed we didn't listen, as a result the nation is drowning in waves of laughter.TheScreamingEagles said:Anyhoo, if Leave weren't prepared for this, then they've got real issues.
I did warn them come May the 9th, they were about to receive a fearsome onslaught from Dave and the rest of the non Tory Remain grouping.
A blind man, with a blind dog in a power cut, could have seen this coming.
Millions will die from exposure to Cameron's laughing gas.0 -
The EU was more split than those countries on the subject. The doves haven't gone away. Without Britain's voice being heard, the chances of EU sanctions being lifted without meaningful changes in behaviour by Russia would be greatly increased.Casino_Royale said:
Canada, the US, Japan, Australia and the G7 were all perfectly capable of applying sanctions against Russia without the EU:AlastairMeeks said:
You cannot compartmentalise international relations in that way. Sanctions against Russia are undertaken at an EU level, for example.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Our NATO membership is NOT at stake on June 23rd.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_sanctions_during_the_Ukrainian_crisis
We will be the same following Brexit.0 -
The day after we leave, we'll lift all sanctions with Russia too of course. That is right isn't it ?Charles said:
No, they are at a multinational level. The US is involved as well.AlastairMeeks said:
You cannot compartmentalise international relations in that way. Sanctions against Russia are undertaken at an EU level, for example.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Our NATO membership is NOT at stake on June 23rd.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Having the UK as a third party won't make much difference in practice. Not while Germany is busy screwing all of Eastern Europe with the Nordstream.0 -
Yes, the Ukraine story is almost as great a triumph for the EU as Bosnia was. What would the world do without this redoubtable bastion of peace and security?Charles said:
No, it won't make them more compromised, or pusillanimous.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Brexit will be a distraction for the EU, and it's quite possible that Putin will seek to take advantage, probably in Eastern Ukraine. But that game's been played already and Ukraine has lost - it's just a matter of when Russia closes out the details.
I doubt Russia will pressure the Baltics or Turkey - that would be too much even for Obama to ignore.0 -
Right, I'm signing off for the night. Evening all.
Tomorrow, I build my Anderson shelter.0 -
Never hate your enemies, it effects your judgement.Richard_Tyndall said:
I have been campaigning for Leave for weeks. Once that is over I will campaign for whichever party has the best chance of defeating the Tories at whatever elections we have in the future. I will enjoy your squeals of anguish when that day comes.TheScreamingEagles said:
A typo on my part, but for the avoidance of doubt, I so hope you're campaigning for Leave.
Just saying.0 -
Churchillian???Casino_Royale said:0 -
Indeed, I like the inference that your cat leaving you is worse than your dick falling off.GIN1138 said:
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Of course you said similar things about about Obama's intervention.TheScreamingEagles said:Anyhoo, if Leave weren't prepared for this, then they've got real issues.
I did warn them come May the 9th, they were about to receive a fearsome onslaught from Dave and the rest of the non Tory Remain grouping.
A blind man, with a blind dog in a power cut, could have seen this coming.0 -
Batty? Playing the man, not the ball!AlastairMeeks said:
What scares me is batty Leavers thinking that they can have everything they want without any consequences. Most of us grow out of that in our teens, but Leave are advocating it as a way of running the country.Mortimer said:
The correct action is to act on the will of the people, which is what will happen.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Does Putin scare you? The Remainiacs I know are all scared of something. Leavers seem far more hopeful. Presumably that is why the only justification most of the former can give for staying is Project Fear.0 -
glw said:
He appears to have gone a bit mad.MarkHopkins said:A little while ago, Cameron was fine with Britain leaving the EU, and he "ruled nothing out" if the renegotiation failed.
Now apparently Leave means Armageddon.
"FFS" is an expression one could respond with.
0 -
This the opening salvo, I suspect the majority of the campaign will be focussed on the economy, and Michael Gove has given Remain yet another avenue to bash Leave overPulpstar said:
It's grounded in the same ludicrous universe that had Sadiq Khan as some sort of extremist. I can't understand why "Remain" are going down this route when "Leave" are stumbling about with the economic in, out, shake it all about arguments on the single market/economy.TheScreamingEagles said:Anyhoo, if Leave weren't prepared for this, then they've got real issues.
I did warn them come May the 9th, they were about to receive a fearsome onslaught from Dave and the rest of the non Tory Remain grouping.
A blind man, with a blind dog in a power cut, could have seen this coming.0 -
Final comment: I think Remain are trying to tickle the tummies of pensioners who remember the aftermath of WWII, and are currently clearly for Leave, and who therefore might be stirred.Pulpstar said:
It's grounded in the same ludicrous universe that had Sadiq Khan as some sort of extremist. I can't understand why "Remain" are going down this route when "Leave" are stumbling about with the economic in, out, shake it all about arguments on the single market/economy.TheScreamingEagles said:Anyhoo, if Leave weren't prepared for this, then they've got real issues.
I did warn them come May the 9th, they were about to receive a fearsome onslaught from Dave and the rest of the non Tory Remain grouping.
A blind man, with a blind dog in a power cut, could have seen this coming.
I don't think they will be.0 -
Is this some sort of infection that leads to REMAINers insulting people that have a different view from them? All very odd, these signs of people despairing of the future.glw said:
He appears to have gone a bit mad.MarkHopkins said:A little while ago, Cameron was fine with Britain leaving the EU, and he "ruled nothing out" if the renegotiation failed.
Now apparently Leave means Armageddon.
"FFS" is an expression one could respond with.
0 -
Where's the insult? This thread has been dominated by Leavers refusing to accept the possibility of any deterioration in international relations and of the strengthening of this country's enemies by our turning our backs on close cooperation with our closest neighbours.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Why do you keep insulting LEAVErs Mr Meeks? Is this because of the weakness of your arguments for REMAIN?AlastairMeeks said:
What scares me is batty Leavers thinking that they can have everything they want without any consequences. Most of us grow out of that in our teens, but Leave are advocating it as a way of running the country.Mortimer said:
The correct action is to act on the will of the people, which is what will happen.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Does Putin scare you? The Remainiacs I know are all scared of something. Leavers seem far more hopeful. Presumably that is why the only justification most of the former can give for staying is Project Fear.0 -
We may, we may not- but at least it will be the decision of OUR elected representatives.Pulpstar said:
The day after we leave, we'll lift all sanctions with Russia too of course. That is right isn't it ?Charles said:
No, they are at a multinational level. The US is involved as well.AlastairMeeks said:
You cannot compartmentalise international relations in that way. Sanctions against Russia are undertaken at an EU level, for example.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Our NATO membership is NOT at stake on June 23rd.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Having the UK as a third party won't make much difference in practice. Not while Germany is busy screwing all of Eastern Europe with the Nordstream.0 -
Not quite.glw said:
Of course you said similar things about about Obama's intervention.TheScreamingEagles said:Anyhoo, if Leave weren't prepared for this, then they've got real issues.
I did warn them come May the 9th, they were about to receive a fearsome onslaught from Dave and the rest of the non Tory Remain grouping.
A blind man, with a blind dog in a power cut, could have seen this coming.0 -
Indeed, on this subject, Mr Meeks is one of the most irrational posters.Mortimer said:
These continuous insults levelled against polite posters who happen to disagree with you might lead one to think that it is the democratic will of the people that scares you.AlastairMeeks said:
What scares me is batty Leavers thinking that they can have everything they want without any consequences. Most of us grow out of that in our teens, but Leave are advocating it as a way of running the country.Mortimer said:
The correct action is to act on the will of the people, which is what will happen.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Does Putin scare you? The Remainiacs I know are all scared of something. Leavers seem far more hopeful. Presumably that is why the only justification most of the former can give for staying is Project Fear.0 -
We let the Russians do that because, for better or worse, that is the deal we did with them at the end of WW2. Its not right but it had little or nothing to do with the politicians at the time. Do you really think they should have started a world war over the Russians doing what we had already agreed they could do?viewcode said:
No. If I recall we only got off our arses when the Egyptians, Malaysians, Irish got a bit ansty or when the UN thought Korea would be a fun place to visit. But when it came to Europe we thought it was a bit forren and gave not two damns, 'cos the Russians had nukes and we thought it best not to care. So we let the Russians send secret police into Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Romania, West Germany, et al, stood and watched when the Russians sent tanks into Hungary, and let them destroy the Prague Spring. Good old us. Yay.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Were there any Anglo-European Wars between 1945 and 1973?AlastairMeeks said:I see that the site's hardcore Leavers are of the view that Britain can waltz out of the EU without any short, medium or long term damage to relations with other countries and without in any way destabilising international relations.
And then they suggest that this is beyond doubt. Remarkable.0 -
Churchill's 1946 Zurich speech - said we should be "friends" with a Single Europe, but nowhere says we should join in:old_labour said:
Churchillian???Casino_Royale said:
http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html0 -
TBF, it wasn't just the EU that was at fault in Ukraine. It was all of the West.runnymede said:
Yes, the Ukraine story is almost as great a triumph for the EU as Bosnia was. What would the world do without this redoubtable bastion of peace and security?Charles said:
No, it won't make them more compromised, or pusillanimous.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Brexit will be a distraction for the EU, and it's quite possible that Putin will seek to take advantage, probably in Eastern Ukraine. But that game's been played already and Ukraine has lost - it's just a matter of when Russia closes out the details.
I doubt Russia will pressure the Baltics or Turkey - that would be too much even for Obama to ignore.0 -
...that would be 2008/9. I'm fairly sure that's something to avoid, not emulate.weejonnie said:
The pound a few years ago was basically at Euro equivalent.viewcode said:
You know that bit where anorexics look in the mirror and see a really fat girl? The pound is currently as weak as a newborn fawn with a cough.weejonnie said:
I thought we wanted a weaker pound to encourage exports.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Rates will rise to defend the pound and probably on an exit vote fairly soon afterSpeedy said:
Rates are not going to rise as long as there is deflation, you need inflation rates to rise way above 2% while GDP growth is healthy to see a rise in rates.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Rise in mortgage cost. Both my children have expressed concern that leaving may cause rates to risePlato_Says said:Osborne unwittingly comes up with good reason to vote Leave https://t.co/t17PaxIjXy
I don't think we are going to see neither in today's world of low investment and low demand regardless of the EU ref. outcome.0 -
"The Remainiacs I know are all scared of something."Mortimer said:
These continuous insults levelled against polite posters who happen to disagree with you might lead one to think that it is the democratic will of the people that scares you.AlastairMeeks said:
What scares me is batty Leavers thinking that they can have everything they want without any consequences. Most of us grow out of that in our teens, but Leave are advocating it as a way of running the country.Mortimer said:
The correct action is to act on the will of the people, which is what will happen.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Does Putin scare you? The Remainiacs I know are all scared of something. Leavers seem far more hopeful. Presumably that is why the only justification most of the former can give for staying is Project Fear.0 -
You are not my enemy. You are just someone I scorn. You don't deserve to be regarded as an enemy as that would imply some respect and I certainly have none of that for you.TheScreamingEagles said:
Never hate your enemies, it effects your judgement.Richard_Tyndall said:
I have been campaigning for Leave for weeks. Once that is over I will campaign for whichever party has the best chance of defeating the Tories at whatever elections we have in the future. I will enjoy your squeals of anguish when that day comes.TheScreamingEagles said:
A typo on my part, but for the avoidance of doubt, I so hope you're campaigning for Leave.
Just saying.0 -
TBF it was all of the West, and Russia, and Ukraine.Charles said:
TBF, it wasn't just the EU that was at fault in Ukraine. It was all of the West.runnymede said:
Yes, the Ukraine story is almost as great a triumph for the EU as Bosnia was. What would the world do without this redoubtable bastion of peace and security?Charles said:
No, it won't make them more compromised, or pusillanimous.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Brexit will be a distraction for the EU, and it's quite possible that Putin will seek to take advantage, probably in Eastern Ukraine. But that game's been played already and Ukraine has lost - it's just a matter of when Russia closes out the details.
I doubt Russia will pressure the Baltics or Turkey - that would be too much even for Obama to ignore.0 -
Fearsome onslaught? No.TheScreamingEagles said:Anyhoo, if Leave weren't prepared for this, then they've got real issues.
I did warn them come May the 9th, they were about to receive a fearsome onslaught from Dave and the rest of the non Tory Remain grouping.
A blind man, with a blind dog in a power cut, could have seen this coming.
Laughable onslaught? Yes.
Remain should keep up the good work.0 -
Gary White
#WhatWillThePMClaimNext If we stay in Europe they will let is win Euro 2016, and the European Song Contest.0 -
In the fifth word quoted.AlastairMeeks said:
Where's the insult?TCPoliticalBetting said:
Why do you keep insulting LEAVErs Mr Meeks? Is this because of the weakness of your arguments for REMAIN?AlastairMeeks said:
What scares me is batty Leavers thinking that they can have everything they want without any consequences. Most of us grow out of that in our teens, but Leave are advocating it as a way of running the country.Mortimer said:
The correct action is to act on the will of the people, which is what will happen.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Does Putin scare you? The Remainiacs I know are all scared of something. Leavers seem far more hopeful. Presumably that is why the only justification most of the former can give for staying is Project Fear.0 -
Never mind eh? I'll have to contain my disappointment.Richard_Tyndall said:
You are not my enemy. You are just someone I scorn. You don't deserve to be regarded as an enemy as that would imply some respect and I certainly have none of that for you.TheScreamingEagles said:
Never hate your enemies, it effects your judgement.Richard_Tyndall said:
I have been campaigning for Leave for weeks. Once that is over I will campaign for whichever party has the best chance of defeating the Tories at whatever elections we have in the future. I will enjoy your squeals of anguish when that day comes.TheScreamingEagles said:
A typo on my part, but for the avoidance of doubt, I so hope you're campaigning for Leave.
Just saying.0 -
-
Meanwhile the Car Industry appears to be under threat:
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/7294230199454351360 -
I've checked and it still looks like a measured descriptive to me of the type of behaviour I refer to and which is widely in evidence on the Leave side. Honest Leavers should be able to accept that there are downsides as well as upsides to leaving the EU.ThreeQuidder said:
In the fifth word quoted.AlastairMeeks said:
Where's the insult?TCPoliticalBetting said:
Why do you keep insulting LEAVErs Mr Meeks? Is this because of the weakness of your arguments for REMAIN?AlastairMeeks said:
What scares me is batty Leavers thinking that they can have everything they want without any consequences. Most of us grow out of that in our teens, but Leave are advocating it as a way of running the country.Mortimer said:
The correct action is to act on the will of the people, which is what will happen.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Does Putin scare you? The Remainiacs I know are all scared of something. Leavers seem far more hopeful. Presumably that is why the only justification most of the former can give for staying is Project Fear.
I'm open to other adjectives. Naive, delusional, simple-minded or self-deceiving might be acceptable alternatives.0 -
Indeed so. But the EU's performance seems particularly inept, nicht wahr? A cack-handed provocation of Russia followed by a pathetic and craven attitude towards economic sanctions. Embarrassing.Charles said:
TBF, it wasn't just the EU that was at fault in Ukraine. It was all of the West.runnymede said:
Yes, the Ukraine story is almost as great a triumph for the EU as Bosnia was. What would the world do without this redoubtable bastion of peace and security?Charles said:
No, it won't make them more compromised, or pusillanimous.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Brexit will be a distraction for the EU, and it's quite possible that Putin will seek to take advantage, probably in Eastern Ukraine. But that game's been played already and Ukraine has lost - it's just a matter of when Russia closes out the details.
I doubt Russia will pressure the Baltics or Turkey - that would be too much even for Obama to ignore.0 -
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/728009849754271744Plato_Says said:Gary White
#WhatWillThePMClaimNext If we stay in Europe they will let is win Euro 2016, and the European Song Contest.0 -
The one thing that the headlines have done tonight is provoke fury from the leavers and really the animosity is off the scale. I am prepared to pass an opinion tomorrow when I have listened to the speech and if it is as the headlines I will express disapproval. In the meantime I wish everyone a good night's rest and hope that civility will return to all soon.Richard_Tyndall said:
You are not my enemy. You are just someone I scorn. You don't deserve to be regarded as an enemy as that would imply some respect and I certainly have none of that for you.TheScreamingEagles said:
Never hate your enemies, it effects your judgement.Richard_Tyndall said:
I have been campaigning for Leave for weeks. Once that is over I will campaign for whichever party has the best chance of defeating the Tories at whatever elections we have in the future. I will enjoy your squeals of anguish when that day comes.TheScreamingEagles said:
A typo on my part, but for the avoidance of doubt, I so hope you're campaigning for Leave.
Just saying.0 -
Yes this is what is happening. A PM desperate for a REMAIN vote is giving away concessions to our "allies".Charles said:
He should be more responsible. He's making inflammatory statements and trading favours from our allies to further his political objectives. Those actions have costs in the real world.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm sure Leave will be able to rebut his comments.Charles said:
Cameron's Prime Minister. His words carry more weight.TheScreamingEagles said:
My views haven't changed from this morning's thread.Casino_Royale said:
If you really think that, then why are you defending the PM lowering himself to their level?TheScreamingEagles said:
The Armed Forces Minister (and Leaver) a few weeks ago made the opposite argument, that Remaining would lead to conflict/war.Casino_Royale said:
David Cameron is our Prime Minister.TheScreamingEagles said:
Perhaps you're similarly aghast to what Leaver Tory MP Julian Lewis has also said on that same front page?Casino_Royale said:
I honestly can't believe I just read that.runnymede said:
The PM continues to treat the voters as morons..Casino_Royale said:
I am sitting here with my mouth aghast.
Seriously, TSE, you need to get in touch with your friends at Remain and tell them to get a grip.
They're in danger of making themselves a laughing stock.
I'm assuming Leave made themselves a laughing stock then?
You've gone totally deaf on the EU referendum. You are far too emotionally and personally close to CCHQ to be objective on the matter.
Your only answers to criticisms are whataboutism and lookoverthere; you're not even thinking anymore.
If you don't see how the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom publicly implying in his major kick-off speech of the campaign that a vote for Brexit "risks war" is a problem, and grossly irresponsible, then this campaign is going to have far-reaching consequences, whatever the result, way way down the line.
All I'm pointing out is the hypocrisy of Leavers on here, when Leavers make the same argument for Leave as Dave has done, there's nothing but silence, but when Dave does it, he's a nutcase etc.
Charles brings a real politik view based on insight (I suspect) into international deals. Something that Mr Meeks, TSE and Mr Nabavi should pay attention to. Alas they seem to trust the SPADs in Downing street.
0 -
WTF has Cameron full starking raving Gordon Brown bonkers?0
-
As long as you accept adjectives like pompous, smug, supercilious or condescending?AlastairMeeks said:
I've checked and it still looks like a measured descriptive to me of the type of behaviour I refer to and which is widely in evidence on the Leave side. Honest Leavers should be able to accept that there are downsides as well as upsides to leaving the EU.ThreeQuidder said:
In the fifth word quoted.AlastairMeeks said:
Where's the insult?TCPoliticalBetting said:
Why do you keep insulting LEAVErs Mr Meeks? Is this because of the weakness of your arguments for REMAIN?AlastairMeeks said:
What scares me is batty Leavers thinking that they can have everything they want without any consequences. Most of us grow out of that in our teens, but Leave are advocating it as a way of running the country.Mortimer said:
The correct action is to act on the will of the people, which is what will happen.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Does Putin scare you? The Remainiacs I know are all scared of something. Leavers seem far more hopeful. Presumably that is why the only justification most of the former can give for staying is Project Fear.
I'm open to other adjectives. Naive, delusional, simple-minded or self-deceiving might be acceptable alternatives.0 -
Euro 2016 is a good exchange. But Eurovision ? I might vote to Leave.Sunil_Prasannan said:
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/728009849754271744Plato_Says said:Gary White
#WhatWillThePMClaimNext If we stay in Europe they will let is win Euro 2016, and the European Song Contest.0 -
It is the use of the word "batty" but you knew that and just want to play games. Do us all a favour Mr Meeks and please drop the insults.AlastairMeeks said:
Where's the insult? This thread has been dominated by Leavers refusing to accept the possibility of any deterioration in international relations and of the strengthening of this country's enemies by our turning our backs on close cooperation with our closest neighbours.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Why do you keep insulting LEAVErs Mr Meeks? Is this because of the weakness of your arguments for REMAIN?AlastairMeeks said:
What scares me is batty Leavers thinking that they can have everything they want without any consequences. Most of us grow out of that in our teens, but Leave are advocating it as a way of running the country.Mortimer said:
The correct action is to act on the will of the people, which is what will happen.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Does Putin scare you? The Remainiacs I know are all scared of something. Leavers seem far more hopeful. Presumably that is why the only justification most of the former can give for staying is Project Fear.
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Not animosity - pity that so much that was once so good now lies festering in 10 Downing Street.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The one thing that the headlines have done tonight is provoke fury from the leavers and really the animosity is off the scale. I am prepared to pass an opinion tomorrow when I have listened to the speech and if it is as the headlines I will express disapproval. In the meantime I wish everyone a good night's rest and hope that civility will return to all soon.Richard_Tyndall said:
You are not my enemy. You are just someone I scorn. You don't deserve to be regarded as an enemy as that would imply some respect and I certainly have none of that for you.TheScreamingEagles said:
Never hate your enemies, it effects your judgement.Richard_Tyndall said:
I have been campaigning for Leave for weeks. Once that is over I will campaign for whichever party has the best chance of defeating the Tories at whatever elections we have in the future. I will enjoy your squeals of anguish when that day comes.TheScreamingEagles said:
A typo on my part, but for the avoidance of doubt, I so hope you're campaigning for Leave.
Just saying.0 -
Wes is my local MP, I even voted for him last year!Plato_Says said:0 -
I wonder why the BBC gave him the heave ho...oh yeah that right it is because they are racist...or perhaps because he is a moron.Plato_Says said:0 -
The UK did not consent to, nor did it approve of, Czechia 68, Hungary 56, Berlin 61, or Berlin 48. We "let" the Russians do it because if we intervened they would nuke us and we would die. Sunil's contention that there were no Anglo-European wars 45-73 has to be placed in the context of the Cold WarRichard_Tyndall said:
We let the Russians do that because, for better or worse, that is the deal we did with them at the end of WW2. Its not right but it had little or nothing to do with the politicians at the time. Do you really think they should have started a world war over the Russians doing what we had already agreed they could do?viewcode said:
No. If I recall we only got off our arses when the Egyptians, Malaysians, Irish got a bit ansty or when the UN thought Korea would be a fun place to visit. But when it came to Europe we thought it was a bit forren and gave not two damns, 'cos the Russians had nukes and we thought it best not to care. So we let the Russians send secret police into Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Romania, West Germany, et al, stood and watched when the Russians sent tanks into Hungary, and let them destroy the Prague Spring. Good old us. Yay.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Were there any Anglo-European Wars between 1945 and 1973?AlastairMeeks said:I see that the site's hardcore Leavers are of the view that Britain can waltz out of the EU without any short, medium or long term damage to relations with other countries and without in any way destabilising international relations.
And then they suggest that this is beyond doubt. Remarkable.0 -
How about stupid c*nt?williamglenn said:
As long as you accept adjectives like pompous, smug, supercilious or condescending?AlastairMeeks said:
I've checked and it still looks like a measured descriptive to me of the type of behaviour I refer to and which is widely in evidence on the Leave side. Honest Leavers should be able to accept that there are downsides as well as upsides to leaving the EU.ThreeQuidder said:
In the fifth word quoted.AlastairMeeks said:
Where's the insult?TCPoliticalBetting said:
Why do you keep insulting LEAVErs Mr Meeks? Is this because of the weakness of your arguments for REMAIN?AlastairMeeks said:
What scares me is batty Leavers thinking that they can have everything they want without any consequences. Most of us grow out of that in our teens, but Leave are advocating it as a way of running the country.Mortimer said:
The correct action is to act on the will of the people, which is what will happen.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Does Putin scare you? The Remainiacs I know are all scared of something. Leavers seem far more hopeful. Presumably that is why the only justification most of the former can give for staying is Project Fear.
I'm open to other adjectives. Naive, delusional, simple-minded or self-deceiving might be acceptable alternatives.
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That tweet exchange is three years old.Plato_Says said:0 -
I can confirm that Batty of Leeds United and Blackburn Rovers indeed played the man and not the ball !Sunil_Prasannan said:
Batty? Playing the man, not the ball!AlastairMeeks said:
What scares me is batty Leavers thinking that they can have everything they want without any consequences. Most of us grow out of that in our teens, but Leave are advocating it as a way of running the country.Mortimer said:
The correct action is to act on the will of the people, which is what will happen.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Does Putin scare you? The Remainiacs I know are all scared of something. Leavers seem far more hopeful. Presumably that is why the only justification most of the former can give for staying is Project Fear.0 -
Perhaps Dave saw what publicity ken got with all.the Hitler stuff & thought I wonder how I can channel that...oh yeah let's do predict world war III.0
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True, sad to see this desperate behaviour. A form of tantrums befitting a three year old and not the PM.weejonnie said:
Not animosity - pity that so much that was once so good now lies festering in 10 Downing Street.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The one thing that the headlines have done tonight is provoke fury from the leavers and really the animosity is off the scale. I am prepared to pass an opinion tomorrow when I have listened to the speech and if it is as the headlines I will express disapproval. In the meantime I wish everyone a good night's rest and hope that civility will return to all soon.Richard_Tyndall said:
You are not my enemy. You are just someone I scorn. You don't deserve to be regarded as an enemy as that would imply some respect and I certainly have none of that for you.TheScreamingEagles said:
Never hate your enemies, it effects your judgement.Richard_Tyndall said:
I have been campaigning for Leave for weeks. Once that is over I will campaign for whichever party has the best chance of defeating the Tories at whatever elections we have in the future. I will enjoy your squeals of anguish when that day comes.TheScreamingEagles said:
A typo on my part, but for the avoidance of doubt, I so hope you're campaigning for Leave.
Just saying.
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Bunch of grifters looking for mugsTheScreamingEagles said:
Is an interesting line Remainers are pushing, this is the email Remain have sent me in the last hourRoger said:An interesting article on the Referendum by Nick Cohen posted by Carlotta earlier. For those who missed it
http://www.theguardian.com/global/commentisfree/2016/may/07/eu-referendum-brexiteers-trust-in-paranoia-and-mendacity-nick-cohen?CMP=share_btn_tw
https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/7293979151359508480 -
Please do some canvassing for Remain. I imagine someone straight out of a Grim Up North London cartoon strip would be a real hit on the doorsteps.AlastairMeeks said:
I've checked and it still looks like a measured descriptive to me of the type of behaviour I refer to and which is widely in evidence on the Leave side. Honest Leavers should be able to accept that there are downsides as well as upsides to leaving the EU.ThreeQuidder said:
In the fifth word quoted.AlastairMeeks said:
Where's the insult?TCPoliticalBetting said:
Why do you keep insulting LEAVErs Mr Meeks? Is this because of the weakness of your arguments for REMAIN?AlastairMeeks said:
What scares me is batty Leavers thinking that they can have everything they want without any consequences. Most of us grow out of that in our teens, but Leave are advocating it as a way of running the country.Mortimer said:
The correct action is to act on the will of the people, which is what will happen.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Does Putin scare you? The Remainiacs I know are all scared of something. Leavers seem far more hopeful. Presumably that is why the only justification most of the former can give for staying is Project Fear.
I'm open to other adjectives. Naive, delusional, simple-minded or self-deceiving might be acceptable alternatives.0 -
Dear Dear how the mighty have fallen , now just a Tory mouthpiece spouting lies and propagandaAlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.0 -
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Could Scottp be Cammo, sounds barking enoughPlato_Says said:
I'm still wiping away tears of laughter hereweejonnie said:
He's a nutcase.Plato_Says said:0 -
I think Ireland, Austria, Sweden and Finland might have something to say about that as they are neutral countries.Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky are not saying there will be war if we leave, their report says that David Cameron will make a strong case for being together in Europe for defence and security. The telegraph's headline is meant to cause chaos but I will wait for his speech tomorrow to decide on his narrative. Leave are jumping on a headline of a speech that hasn't been made. If the telegraph prove to be correct then I will join the chorus of disapproval, but not before
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CuckooBig_G_NorthWales said:
I think if you take the wider conservative base and include Scotland you may find that David Cameron represents the majority though it would be closeCasino_Royale said:
If this campaign were fought on normal party lines, with a neutral "make your own mind up" PM/HMG, I'd expect Leave to win by at least 60:40.Big_G_NorthWales said:Sadiq Khan's victory in London and Ruth Davidson in Scotland are big moments in the referendum. Sadiq Khan will be very firmly remain and will fight to keep London in. Ruth Davidson and all the main party leaders in Scotland are also going to unite and campaign for remain. Leanne Wood and Labour will do likewise for Wales. With the government booklets going out to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland this week the referendum goes up several notches and I believe that leave will have a much wider front to fight against than just blue on blue. It is going to get very interesting
Remain were always going to have the Guardianistas, Greens, the nationalist Left, public sector unionised employees, intelligentsia, third sector, media and arts world, and the internationalists in the bank.
It's the fact that a Tory PM has come out so strongly for Remain that's made this close: he's confused his own natural support base, and taken at least a good third of them with him.
That's why this is possibly not far off a (slightly weighted) coin flip shot.0 -
Evening Malc!malcolmg said:
Dear Dear how the mighty have fallen , now just a Tory mouthpiece spouting lies and propagandaAlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
Are you for IN or OUT? Or maybe your for shake it all about? 0 -
He was your hero if I remember correctly !Plato_Says said:It isn't often that the PM outdoes the Express for ridiculous headlines.
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Maybe Leave doesn't need a campaign? Just let Dave keep ranting away.0
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Well since tomorrow we have Cameron talking WAR, and Boris also giving a major speech on Brexit, here is a nice little summary of the different styles they employ:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmOHeWrr9V4
Goodnight.0 -
Can't speak for Plato but a LOT of us have been very let down by Cameron since the "renegotiation" balls up....surbiton said:
He was your hero if I remember correctly !Plato_Says said:It isn't often that the PM outdoes the Express for ridiculous headlines.
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MP_SE said:
Please do some canvassing for Remain. I imagine someone straight out of a Grim Up North London cartoon strip would be a real hit on the doorsteps.AlastairMeeks said:
I've checked and it still looks like a measured descriptive to me of the type of behaviour I refer to and which is widely in evidence on the Leave side. Honest Leavers should be able to accept that there are downsides as well as upsides to leaving the EU.ThreeQuidder said:
In the fifth word quoted.AlastairMeeks said:
Where's the insult?TCPoliticalBetting said:
Why do you keep insulting LEAVErs Mr Meeks? Is this because of the weakness of your arguments for REMAIN?AlastairMeeks said:
What scares me is batty Leavers thinking that they can have everything they want without any consequences. Most of us grow out of that in our teens, but Leave are advocating it as a way of running the country.Mortimer said:
The correct action is to act on the will of the people, which is what will happen.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Does Putin scare you? The Remainiacs I know are all scared of something. Leavers seem far more hopeful. Presumably that is why the only justification most of the former can give for staying is Project Fear.
I'm open to other adjectives. Naive, delusional, simple-minded or self-deceiving might be acceptable alternatives.
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For goodness' sake, the only side allowed to be crass and irrational and to insult their opponents is Leave! Remain pols who betray this rule are TRAITORS to their own TRAITORS!0
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0
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Mostly the fault of Russia in my book, unless you deny Ukranians the right of self determination in their own country.Charles said:
TBF, it wasn't just the EU that was at fault in Ukraine. It was all of the West.runnymede said:
Yes, the Ukraine story is almost as great a triumph for the EU as Bosnia was. What would the world do without this redoubtable bastion of peace and security?Charles said:
No, it won't make them more compromised, or pusillanimous.AlastairMeeks said:
So the correct action is to make the current generation of Western leaders weaker, more compromised and more pusillanimous? Really?Charles said:
Vladimir Putin won't be around for ever.AlastairMeeks said:
Why do you think that Vladimir Putin is keen on Britain leaving? He sees opportunities.Casino_Royale said:
Curiously enough, we managed to avoid WWIII as a member of NATO for almost 25 years prior to our membership of the EEC, and that was during the greatest flashpoint of the Cuban Missile Crisis where there over a million Soviet troops facing off against us in Eastern Europe.AlastairMeeks said:David Cameron's warning seems fair enough. There's at least one aggressive militaristic leader who would be delighted to be able to foment disunity and take further military action if the opportunity presents itself.
Of course, if it happened, Leavers would deny any connection with their referendum-inspired isolationism.
I think we (and Europe) will be ok.
He's an opportunistic thug, faced by a historically weak generation of compromised and pusillanimous Western leaders.
Brexit is bigger than Putin.
Brexit will be a distraction for the EU, and it's quite possible that Putin will seek to take advantage, probably in Eastern Ukraine. But that game's been played already and Ukraine has lost - it's just a matter of when Russia closes out the details.
I doubt Russia will pressure the Baltics or Turkey - that would be too much even for Obama to ignore.0 -
Who TSE or CameronTykejohnno said:
He's a laughing stock.chestnut said:
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!Tykejohnno said:0 -
Who TSE or CameronTykejohnno said:
He's a laughing stock.chestnut said:
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!Tykejohnno said:0 -
Who TSE or CameronTykejohnno said:
He's a laughing stock.chestnut said:
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!Tykejohnno said:0 -
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This is all most amusing, it's beyond bonkers.glw said:
It must be a bit like how Labour supporters felt when Blair turned out to be a neocon.GIN1138 said:Can't speak for Plato but a LOT of us have been very let down by Cameron since the "renegotiation" balls up....
Cameron is outdoing The Donald.0
