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Comments
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Way OTT.OllyT said:
Only yesterday Leavers berating Obama having an opinion on Brexit, now Gove has taken it up on himself to try and wreck the EU whether the other countries like it or not, he's either delusional or arrogant beyond belief.taffys said:
Gove said that if you vote leave you will trigger a great democratic contagion in Europe. He portrayed us as the saviour of a continent crying out for change.Casino_Royale said:
Gove didn't say that.Alanbrooke said:
Haven't seen the news so just picking up on that comment if Gove said it he is a titCarlottaVance said:
@bbclaurak: Vote Leave asked if they hope Brexit would trigger the end of the whole EU ? 'Certainly'Casino_Royale said:
Citation needed.CarlottaVance said:
LEAVE's spin....Casino_Royale said:Very different to the spin.
This referendum is proving to be a great destroyer of reputations - nearly all of them Conservative - Cameron, Osborne, Gove, javid - who's next ?
That's quite a positive vision for the future, for me.
Gove is an unsual politician in that he atually believes in something and isn't afraid to talk about it.0 -
The Labour Party has ordered a new Server. Their database of Conservative quotes during this EU ref campaign is getting far too big, far too quickly.TheScreamingEagles said:
Once the referendum is over, the Tory Party will unite and concentrate their firepower on Corbyn.Alanbrooke said:
not in the least, the amazing thing about this campaign is how Conservatives are trashing each other. it's one thing to fight a campaiggn it's another to do the opposition's job for them.edmundintokyo said:
It'll all look different the other side of the referendum.Alanbrooke said:
Haven't seen the news so just picking up on that comment if Gove said it he is a titCarlottaVance said:
@bbclaurak: Vote Leave asked if they hope Brexit would trigger the end of the whole EU ? 'Certainly'Casino_Royale said:
Citation needed.CarlottaVance said:
LEAVE's spin....Casino_Royale said:Very different to the spin.
This referendum is proving to be a great destroyer of reputations - nearly all of them Conservative - Cameron, Osborne, Gove, javid - who's next ?
the expression "rue the day " springs to mind.
We'll all sing Kumbaya afterwards too0 -
They've got nothing on CCHQ's archive of Corbyn quotessurbiton said:
The Labour Party has ordered a new Server. Their database of Conservative quotes during this EU ref campaign is getting far too big, far too quickly.TheScreamingEagles said:
Once the referendum is over, the Tory Party will unite and concentrate their firepower on Corbyn.Alanbrooke said:
not in the least, the amazing thing about this campaign is how Conservatives are trashing each other. it's one thing to fight a campaiggn it's another to do the opposition's job for them.edmundintokyo said:
It'll all look different the other side of the referendum.Alanbrooke said:
Haven't seen the news so just picking up on that comment if Gove said it he is a titCarlottaVance said:
@bbclaurak: Vote Leave asked if they hope Brexit would trigger the end of the whole EU ? 'Certainly'Casino_Royale said:
Citation needed.CarlottaVance said:
LEAVE's spin....Casino_Royale said:Very different to the spin.
This referendum is proving to be a great destroyer of reputations - nearly all of them Conservative - Cameron, Osborne, Gove, javid - who's next ?
the expression "rue the day " springs to mind.
We'll all sing Kumbaya afterwards too
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Copying Enoch Powell, then.PeterC said:
Way OTT.OllyT said:
Only yesterday Leavers berating Obama having an opinion on Brexit, now Gove has taken it up on himself to try and wreck the EU whether the other countries like it or not, he's either delusional or arrogant beyond belief.taffys said:
Gove said that if you vote leave you will trigger a great democratic contagion in Europe. He portrayed us as the saviour of a continent crying out for change.Casino_Royale said:
Gove didn't say that.Alanbrooke said:
Haven't seen the news so just picking up on that comment if Gove said it he is a titCarlottaVance said:
@bbclaurak: Vote Leave asked if they hope Brexit would trigger the end of the whole EU ? 'Certainly'Casino_Royale said:
Citation needed.CarlottaVance said:
LEAVE's spin....Casino_Royale said:Very different to the spin.
This referendum is proving to be a great destroyer of reputations - nearly all of them Conservative - Cameron, Osborne, Gove, javid - who's next ?
That's quite a positive vision for the future, for me.
Gove is an unsual politician in that he atually believes in something and isn't afraid to talk about it.
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Gove, Johnson, Carswell, probably very similar. Farage probably does have a different view, but will go with the rest.surbiton said:A simple question to the Leavers [ or, anyone else ] on PB.
Are the positions of Carswell, Farage, Gove, Johnson etc. etc the same regarding what form of Leave they want ?0 -
or Jeremy CorbynInnocent_Abroad said:
Copying Enoch Powell, then.PeterC said:
Way OTT.OllyT said:
Only yesterday Leavers berating Obama having an opinion on Brexit, now Gove has taken it up on himself to try and wreck the EU whether the other countries like it or not, he's either delusional or arrogant beyond belief.taffys said:
Gove said that if you vote leave you will trigger a great democratic contagion in Europe. He portrayed us as the saviour of a continent crying out for change.Casino_Royale said:
Gove didn't say that.Alanbrooke said:
Haven't seen the news so just picking up on that comment if Gove said it he is a titCarlottaVance said:
@bbclaurak: Vote Leave asked if they hope Brexit would trigger the end of the whole EU ? 'Certainly'Casino_Royale said:
Citation needed.CarlottaVance said:
LEAVE's spin....Casino_Royale said:Very different to the spin.
This referendum is proving to be a great destroyer of reputations - nearly all of them Conservative - Cameron, Osborne, Gove, javid - who's next ?
That's quite a positive vision for the future, for me.
Gove is an unsual politician in that he atually believes in something and isn't afraid to talk about it.
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Avoiding trouble may be the best strategy for the Lib Dems.david_herdson said:
Do the Lib Dems intend joining the EURef conversation? I thought they were quite keen on the EU, or is it now an nth priority behind the elections to Little Dribblesome Town Council and the like for Farron?logical_song said:
Don't forget Boris.Alanbrooke said:
Haven't seen the news so just picking up on that comment if Gove said it he is a titCarlottaVance said:
@bbclaurak: Vote Leave asked if they hope Brexit would trigger the end of the whole EU ? 'Certainly'Casino_Royale said:
Citation needed.CarlottaVance said:
LEAVE's spin....Casino_Royale said:Very different to the spin.
This referendum is proving to be a great destroyer of reputations - nearly all of them Conservative - Cameron, Osborne, Gove, javid - who's next ?0 -
Yes, that would be one example. Looking back there have been many conviction politicians. It's just that they are very thin on the ground nowadays.Innocent_Abroad said:
Copying Enoch Powell, then.PeterC said:
Way OTT.OllyT said:
Only yesterday Leavers berating Obama having an opinion on Brexit, now Gove has taken it up on himself to try and wreck the EU whether the other countries like it or not, he's either delusional or arrogant beyond belief.taffys said:
Gove said that if you vote leave you will trigger a great democratic contagion in Europe. He portrayed us as the saviour of a continent crying out for change.Casino_Royale said:
Gove didn't say that.Alanbrooke said:
Haven't seen the news so just picking up on that comment if Gove said it he is a titCarlottaVance said:
@bbclaurak: Vote Leave asked if they hope Brexit would trigger the end of the whole EU ? 'Certainly'Casino_Royale said:
Citation needed.CarlottaVance said:
LEAVE's spin....Casino_Royale said:Very different to the spin.
This referendum is proving to be a great destroyer of reputations - nearly all of them Conservative - Cameron, Osborne, Gove, javid - who's next ?
That's quite a positive vision for the future, for me.
Gove is an unsual politician in that he atually believes in something and isn't afraid to talk about it.0 -
He is talking about the effect our decisions could have on other countries. Obama is lecturing us to make the right decision for his country. That is a world of difference.OllyT said:
Only yesterday Leavers berating Obama having an opinion on Brexit, now Gove has taken it up on himself to try and wreck the EU whether the other countries like it or not, he's either delusional or arrogant beyond belief.taffys said:
Gove said that if you vote leave you will trigger a great democratic contagion in Europe. He portrayed us as the saviour of a continent crying out for change.Casino_Royale said:
Gove didn't say that.Alanbrooke said:
Haven't seen the news so just picking up on that comment if Gove said it he is a titCarlottaVance said:
@bbclaurak: Vote Leave asked if they hope Brexit would trigger the end of the whole EU ? 'Certainly'Casino_Royale said:
Citation needed.CarlottaVance said:
LEAVE's spin....Casino_Royale said:Very different to the spin.
This referendum is proving to be a great destroyer of reputations - nearly all of them Conservative - Cameron, Osborne, Gove, javid - who's next ?
That's quite a positive vision for the future, for me.
Also, he said he wanted the EU to be liberated by more democracy. If you feel that is 'wrecking' the EU, it just reveals how undemocratic the Europhiles are in their thinking.0 -
I see no reason in not trying to make impossible demands at the start of any negotiation. Unless you set up the widest demands you're going to be out-negotiated as you have nothing to give up.0
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As Cameron discovered a few weeks ago.weejonnie said:I see no reason in not trying to make impossible demands at the start of any negotiation. Unless you set up the widest demands you're going to be out-negotiated as you have nothing to give up.
One can imagine him wandering into his local car dealership and paying far more for a vehicle than the original sticker price.0 -
So " it's in the best interests of everyone else on the continent too"GeoffM said:
Gove is doing what is in the interests of the UK.OllyT said:
Only yesterday Leavers berating Obama having an opinion on Brexit, now Gove has taken it up on himself to try and wreck the EU whether the other countries like it or not, he's either delusional or arrogant beyond belief.taffys said:
Gove said that if you vote leave you will trigger a great democratic contagion in Europe. He portrayed us as the saviour of a continent crying out for change.Casino_Royale said:
Gove didn't say that.Alanbrooke said:
Haven't seen the news so just picking up on that comment if Gove said it he is a titCarlottaVance said:
@bbclaurak: Vote Leave asked if they hope Brexit would trigger the end of the whole EU ? 'Certainly'Casino_Royale said:
Citation needed.CarlottaVance said:
LEAVE's spin....Casino_Royale said:Very different to the spin.
This referendum is proving to be a great destroyer of reputations - nearly all of them Conservative - Cameron, Osborne, Gove, javid - who's next ?
That's quite a positive vision for the future, for me.
It happens to be in the best interests of everyone else on the continent too (although not their elite), but that's just a spectacularly lucky bonus ball for everybody.
Do they get a vote to decide or does Gove just decide for the whole of Europe?0 -
I have read that Leave have said "certainly" in response to the question of whether they want to destroy the EU. That is the basis of my comment.david_herdson said:
Except that he hasn't.OllyT said:
Only yesterday Leavers berating Obama having an opinion on Brexit, now Gove has taken it up on himself to try and wreck the EU whether the other countries like it or not, he's either delusional or arrogant beyond belief.taffys said:
Gove said that if you vote leave you will trigger a great democratic contagion in Europe. He portrayed us as the saviour of a continent crying out for change.Casino_Royale said:
Gove didn't say that.Alanbrooke said:
Haven't seen the news so just picking up on that comment if Gove said it he is a titCarlottaVance said:
@bbclaurak: Vote Leave asked if they hope Brexit would trigger the end of the whole EU ? 'Certainly'Casino_Royale said:
Citation needed.CarlottaVance said:
LEAVE's spin....Casino_Royale said:Very different to the spin.
This referendum is proving to be a great destroyer of reputations - nearly all of them Conservative - Cameron, Osborne, Gove, javid - who's next ?
That's quite a positive vision for the future, for me.
There are plenty of parties in the member states across Europe - UKIP most notably in the UK's case - which are dedicated to wrecking the EU. What's more, the EU even has a place for them within its institutions, subject to their electoral appeal. But what Gove said was different; not that he wanted to actively break up the Union but that it could easily come organically via democratic pressures following a Brexit.
Frankly, the EU does need to address its democratic deficit and whether there's Brexit or not, the pressures will remain.0 -
Other countries won't leave automatically if we do. If they wish to, they will undoubtedly vote on the matter. Not sure what the issue is.OllyT said:
So " it's in the best interests of everyone else on the continent too"GeoffM said:
Gove is doing what is in the interests of the UK.OllyT said:
Only yesterday Leavers berating Obama having an opinion on Brexit, now Gove has taken it up on himself to try and wreck the EU whether the other countries like it or not, he's either delusional or arrogant beyond belief.taffys said:
Gove said that if you vote leave you will trigger a great democratic contagion in Europe. He portrayed us as the saviour of a continent crying out for change.Casino_Royale said:
Gove didn't say that.Alanbrooke said:
Haven't seen the news so just picking up on that comment if Gove said it he is a titCarlottaVance said:
@bbclaurak: Vote Leave asked if they hope Brexit would trigger the end of the whole EU ? 'Certainly'Casino_Royale said:
Citation needed.CarlottaVance said:
LEAVE's spin....Casino_Royale said:Very different to the spin.
This referendum is proving to be a great destroyer of reputations - nearly all of them Conservative - Cameron, Osborne, Gove, javid - who's next ?
That's quite a positive vision for the future, for me.
It happens to be in the best interests of everyone else on the continent too (although not their elite), but that's just a spectacularly lucky bonus ball for everybody.
Do they get a vote to decide or does Gove just decide for the whole of Europe?0 -
Do the children of rich parents generally make good hagglers?watford30 said:
As Cameron discovered a few weeks ago.weejonnie said:I see no reason in not trying to make impossible demands at the start of any negotiation. Unless you set up the widest demands you're going to be out-negotiated as you have nothing to give up.
One can imagine him wandering into his local car dealership and paying far more for a vehicle than the original sticker price.
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Not in his case.Innocent_Abroad said:
Do the children of rich parents generally make good hagglers?watford30 said:
As Cameron discovered a few weeks ago.weejonnie said:I see no reason in not trying to make impossible demands at the start of any negotiation. Unless you set up the widest demands you're going to be out-negotiated as you have nothing to give up.
One can imagine him wandering into his local car dealership and paying far more for a vehicle than the original sticker price.
"Super deal Sam, paid an extra £1000 and got some floor mats and an air freshener tree thingy thrown in for free".
Though I do know a few super rich, and their children who'd drive a very hard bargain. But then they're not mincing politicians desperate to avoid confrontation with any 'civilians' in the flesh.
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It will be up to their own democratic systems to elect a party committed to a vote.OllyT said:
So " it's in the best interests of everyone else on the continent too"GeoffM said:
Gove is doing what is in the interests of the UK.OllyT said:
Only yesterday Leavers berating Obama having an opinion on Brexit, now Gove has taken it up on himself to try and wreck the EU whether the other countries like it or not, he's either delusional or arrogant beyond belief.taffys said:
Gove said that if you vote leave you will trigger a great democratic contagion in Europe. He portrayed us as the saviour of a continent crying out for change.Casino_Royale said:
Gove didn't say that.Alanbrooke said:
Haven't seen the news so just picking up on that comment if Gove said it he is a titCarlottaVance said:
@bbclaurak: Vote Leave asked if they hope Brexit would trigger the end of the whole EU ? 'Certainly'Casino_Royale said:
Citation needed.CarlottaVance said:
LEAVE's spin....Casino_Royale said:Very different to the spin.
This referendum is proving to be a great destroyer of reputations - nearly all of them Conservative - Cameron, Osborne, Gove, javid - who's next ?
That's quite a positive vision for the future, for me.
It happens to be in the best interests of everyone else on the continent too (although not their elite), but that's just a spectacularly lucky bonus ball for everybody.
Do they get a vote to decide or does Gove just decide for the whole of Europe?0 -
The issue to me is how we expect to get the improbably optimistic deal that has Gove has outlined out of the EU, after Leave have run a campaign that explicitly includes hoping to bring the EU down.RobD said:
Other countries won't leave automatically if we do. If they wish to, they will undoubtedly vote on the matter. Not sure what the issue is.OllyT said:
So " it's in the best interests of everyone else on the continent too"GeoffM said:
Gove is doing what is in the interests of the UK.OllyT said:
Only yesterday Leavers berating Obama having an opinion on Brexit, now Gove has taken it up on himself to try and wreck the EU whether the other countries like it or not, he's either delusional or arrogant beyond belief.taffys said:
Gove said that if you vote leave you will trigger a great democratic contagion in Europe. He portrayed us as the saviour of a continent crying out for change.Casino_Royale said:
Gove didn't say that.Alanbrooke said:
Haven't seen the news so just picking up on that comment if Gove said it he is a titCarlottaVance said:
@bbclaurak: Vote Leave asked if they hope Brexit would trigger the end of the whole EU ? 'Certainly'Casino_Royale said:
Citation needed.CarlottaVance said:
LEAVE's spin....Casino_Royale said:Very different to the spin.
This referendum is proving to be a great destroyer of reputations - nearly all of them Conservative - Cameron, Osborne, Gove, javid - who's next ?
That's quite a positive vision for the future, for me.
It happens to be in the best interests of everyone else on the continent too (although not their elite), but that's just a spectacularly lucky bonus ball for everybody.
Do they get a vote to decide or does Gove just decide for the whole of Europe?0 -
Are they all in favour of staying within the EEA and, therefore, support the freedom of movement ? I didn't think Farage would support that.Sean_F said:
Gove, Johnson, Carswell, probably very similar. Farage probably does have a different view, but will go with the rest.surbiton said:A simple question to the Leavers [ or, anyone else ] on PB.
Are the positions of Carswell, Farage, Gove, Johnson etc. etc the same regarding what form of Leave they want ?0 -
There is another important topic: which Van to buy to transport their MPs.david_herdson said:
So winning a seat on a Town Council is more important to them than fighting to protect a cornerstone of their foreign policy? How they've fallen.surbiton said:
Actually keeping their collective heads down may not be a bad strategy.david_herdson said:
Do the Lib Dems intend joining the EURef conversation? I thought they were quite keen on the EU, or is it now an nth priority behind the elections to Little Dribblesome Town Council and the like for Farron?logical_song said:
Don't forget Boris.Alanbrooke said:
Haven't seen the news so just picking up on that comment if Gove said it he is a titCarlottaVance said:
@bbclaurak: Vote Leave asked if they hope Brexit would trigger the end of the whole EU ? 'Certainly'Casino_Royale said:
Citation needed.CarlottaVance said:
LEAVE's spin....Casino_Royale said:Very different to the spin.
This referendum is proving to be a great destroyer of reputations - nearly all of them Conservative - Cameron, Osborne, Gove, javid - who's next ?0 -
yeah I saw three of them in Ealing, are the U.S planning on invading if we vote leave?SeanT said:
I'm pretty sure it was! Good work.Indigo said:
What is an Osprey ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Boeing_V-22_OspreySeanT said:Truly bizarre helicopter in the sky over my house. Like a drone but massively sized up. Faintly sci-fi. Obama heading for the US Ambassador's House in Regent's Park?
oh God i sound like project fear.....0 -
Rather surprised he hasn't read that bible on the subject "Everything is Negotiable" by Gavin Kennedywatford30 said:
As Cameron discovered a few weeks ago.weejonnie said:I see no reason in not trying to make impossible demands at the start of any negotiation. Unless you set up the widest demands you're going to be out-negotiated as you have nothing to give up.
One can imagine him wandering into his local car dealership and paying far more for a vehicle than the original sticker price.In Praise of Mother Hubbard
But then again he forgot someone of the other key rules
A cardinal negotiating rule is to shock them with your opening offer. Never start with any offer that is close to where you want to settle. Leave yourself room to negotiate.
- When you start with a shock offer, it forces the other guy to reconsider his
expectations about the current value of that item. His expectations are always
influenced by your opening offer, and more often than not, an extreme opening offer
will alter his expectations in a direction that will favor you.
In negotiating, goodwill is not contagious.
Toughness in negotiating pays the big dividends
Nothing should ever be given away in a negotiation without some movement by the other party.0 -
Gove's expressed ambitions for the rest of Europe are surprising. The euro-sceptic mantra was always 'We're happy to see the EU work if that's what those countries want, but it's just not for us, thanks.' Now Gove is behaving like some latter-day Napoleon, lustful to impose his own fantasies and desires upon an entire continent. This could actually be almost dangerous. Many in the east see the EU as their only aegis against a waiting, watchful Russia. If Gove intends to smash all that up...0
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Mr. Dawning, didn't hear Gove's speech, but surprised he wants to invade Italy.
As for imposition, that's not really how democracy works.0 -
The local elections and the referendum take place in series not in parallel.david_herdson said:
So winning a seat on a Town Council is more important to them than fighting to protect a cornerstone of their foreign policy? How they've fallen.surbiton said:
Actually keeping their collective heads down may not be a bad strategy.david_herdson said:
Do the Lib Dems intend joining the EURef conversation? I thought they were quite keen on the EU, or is it now an nth priority behind the elections to Little Dribblesome Town Council and the like for Farron?logical_song said:
Don't forget Boris.Alanbrooke said:
Haven't seen the news so just picking up on that comment if Gove said it he is a titCarlottaVance said:
@bbclaurak: Vote Leave asked if they hope Brexit would trigger the end of the whole EU ? 'Certainly'Casino_Royale said:
Citation needed.CarlottaVance said:
LEAVE's spin....Casino_Royale said:Very different to the spin.
This referendum is proving to be a great destroyer of reputations - nearly all of them Conservative - Cameron, Osborne, Gove, javid - who's next ?
Consequently they can be fought in series not in parallel.
Indeed experience with voter attention suggests that they are better fought in series not in parallel.0 -
TSE gives hisLuckyguy1983 said:This is a thread?
robustbiased interpretation!0 -
But then again he forgot someone of the other key rulesIndigo said:
Rather surprised he hasn't read that bible on the subject "Everything is Negotiable" by Gavin Kennedywatford30 said:
As Cameron discovered a few weeks ago.weejonnie said:I see no reason in not trying to make impossible demands at the start of any negotiation. Unless you set up the widest demands you're going to be out-negotiated as you have nothing to give up.
One can imagine him wandering into his local car dealership and paying far more for a vehicle than the original sticker price.In Praise of Mother Hubbard
A cardinal negotiating rule is to shock them with your opening offer. Never start with any offer that is close to where you want to settle. Leave yourself room to negotiate.
- When you start with a shock offer, it forces the other guy to reconsider his
expectations about the current value of that item. His expectations are always
influenced by your opening offer, and more often than not, an extreme opening offer
will alter his expectations in a direction that will favor you.
In negotiating, goodwill is not contagious.
Toughness in negotiating pays the big dividends
Nothing should ever be given away in a negotiation without some movement by the other party.
Indigo: do you mean that the UK really will be a part of the European Economic Area?0 -
''Now Gove is behaving like some latter-day Napoleon, lustful to impose his own fantasies and desires upon an entire continent.''
Good trolling....maybe a BIT over the top.0 -
It is NATO which has the capacity to defend EU and other countries against Russia not the EU.Stark_Dawning said:Gove's expressed ambitions for the rest of Europe are surprising. The euro-sceptic mantra was always 'We're happy to see the EU work if that's what those countries want, but it's just not for us, thanks.' Now Gove is behaving like some latter-day Napoleon, lustful to impose his own fantasies and desires upon an entire continent. This could actually be almost dangerous. Many in the east see the EU as their only aegis against a waiting, watchful Russia. If Gove intends to smash all that up...
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If a key board member of a company has had enough getting a rough deal and decides to leave, and all the others say "but you can't leave, we need you here", how likely is it he is going to say "Oh alright, since you put it that way" ?Stark_Dawning said:Gove's expressed ambitions for the rest of Europe are surprising. The euro-sceptic mantra was always 'We're happy to see the EU work if that's what those countries want, but it's just not for us, thanks.' Now Gove is behaving like some latter-day Napoleon, lustful to impose his own fantasies and desires upon an entire continent. This could actually be almost dangerous. Many in the east see the EU as their only aegis against a waiting, watchful Russia. If Gove intends to smash all that up...
We shouldn't actively try and pull things down, but since we would be leaving because of their complete intransigence on renegotiating, its hard to get sympathetic about any collateral damage of us leaving, if we were that important then perhaps they should have tried harder to persuade us to stay.0 -
NATO even has some non EU-members!David_Evershed said:
It is NATO which has the capacity to defend EU and other countries against Russia not the EU.Stark_Dawning said:Gove's expressed ambitions for the rest of Europe are surprising. The euro-sceptic mantra was always 'We're happy to see the EU work if that's what those countries want, but it's just not for us, thanks.' Now Gove is behaving like some latter-day Napoleon, lustful to impose his own fantasies and desires upon an entire continent. This could actually be almost dangerous. Many in the east see the EU as their only aegis against a waiting, watchful Russia. If Gove intends to smash all that up...
0 -
Your last sentence is mendacious twaddle. The official Leave group is Vote Leave, I'd humbly apologise if you can point me to where their official literature hopes to bring down the EU.OllyT said:
The issue to me is how we expect to get the improbably optimistic deal that has Gove has outlined out of the EU, after Leave have run a campaign that explicitly includes hoping to bring the EU down.RobD said:
Other countries won't leave automatically if we do. If they wish to, they will undoubtedly vote on the matter. Not sure what the issue is.OllyT said:
So " it's in the best interests of everyone else on the continent too"GeoffM said:
Gove is doing what is in the interests of the UK.OllyT said:
Only yesterday Leavers berating Obama having an opinion on Brexit, now Gove has taken it up on himself to try and wreck the EU whether the other countries like it or not, he's either delusional or arrogant beyond belief.taffys said:
Gove said that if you vote leave you will trigger a great democratic contagion in Europe. He portrayed us as the saviour of a continent crying out for change.Casino_Royale said:
Gove didn't say that.Alanbrooke said:
Haven't seen the news so just picking up on that comment if Gove said it he is a titCarlottaVance said:
@bbclaurak: Vote Leave asked if they hope Brexit would trigger the end of the whole EU ? 'Certainly'Casino_Royale said:
Citation needed.CarlottaVance said:
LEAVE's spin....Casino_Royale said:Very different to the spin.
This referendum is proving to be a great destroyer of reputations - nearly all of them Conservative - Cameron, Osborne, Gove, javid - who's next ?
That's quite a positive vision for the future, for me.
It happens to be in the best interests of everyone else on the continent too (although not their elite), but that's just a spectacularly lucky bonus ball for everybody.
Do they get a vote to decide or does Gove just decide for the whole of Europe?
Just because a Labour voter is in prison for murder doesn't mean Labour supports murderers.0 -
Thankfully, given that the EU came very close to starting a war with Russia, and the ill advised intervention/meddling of some of its politician's in the Ukraine.David_Evershed said:
It is NATO which has the capacity to defend EU and other countries against Russia not the EU.Stark_Dawning said:Gove's expressed ambitions for the rest of Europe are surprising. The euro-sceptic mantra was always 'We're happy to see the EU work if that's what those countries want, but it's just not for us, thanks.' Now Gove is behaving like some latter-day Napoleon, lustful to impose his own fantasies and desires upon an entire continent. This could actually be almost dangerous. Many in the east see the EU as their only aegis against a waiting, watchful Russia. If Gove intends to smash all that up...
0 -
Indigo: do you mean that the UK really will be a part of the European Economic Area?rcs1000 said:
But then again he forgot someone of the other key rulesIndigo said:
Rather surprised he hasn't read that bible on the subject "Everything is Negotiable" by Gavin Kennedywatford30 said:
As Cameron discovered a few weeks ago.weejonnie said:I see no reason in not trying to make impossible demands at the start of any negotiation. Unless you set up the widest demands you're going to be out-negotiated as you have nothing to give up.
One can imagine him wandering into his local car dealership and paying far more for a vehicle than the original sticker price.In Praise of Mother Hubbard
A cardinal negotiating rule is to shock them with your opening offer. Never start with any offer that is close to where you want to settle. Leave yourself room to negotiate.
- When you start with a shock offer, it forces the other guy to reconsider his
expectations about the current value of that item. His expectations are always
influenced by your opening offer, and more often than not, an extreme opening offer
will alter his expectations in a direction that will favor you.
In negotiating, goodwill is not contagious.
Toughness in negotiating pays the big dividends
Nothing should ever be given away in a negotiation without some movement by the other party.
I have no idea. If Leave win, then it will be a brave (and short lived) politician that suggests it. They are going to figure as I said below, annoying a few hundred libertarians like thee and to some extent me is worth it to get rave rave reviews from ten million or so voters that want a lot less immigration.0 -
After May 5th, yes. Until then the local (and devolved assembly) elections are higher priority.david_herdson said:
Do the Lib Dems intend joining the EURef conversation? I thought they were quite keen on the EU, or is it now an nth priority behind the elections to Little Dribblesome Town Council and the like for Farron?logical_song said:
Don't forget Boris.Alanbrooke said:
Haven't seen the news so just picking up on that comment if Gove said it he is a titCarlottaVance said:
@bbclaurak: Vote Leave asked if they hope Brexit would trigger the end of the whole EU ? 'Certainly'Casino_Royale said:
Citation needed.CarlottaVance said:
LEAVE's spin....Casino_Royale said:Very different to the spin.
This referendum is proving to be a great destroyer of reputations - nearly all of them Conservative - Cameron, Osborne, Gove, javid - who's next ?
Frankly, this mess is all of Cameron's making. He might be relying on LD / Labour to get him out of trouble, but we can let him stew and lose lots of council seats first.0 -
The V-22 Osprey has had seven hull-loss accidents with a total of 36 fatalities. During testing from 1991 to 2000, there were four crashes resulting in 30 fatalities.[33] Since becoming operational in 2007, the V-22 has had three crashes resulting in six fatalities, and several minor incidents. The aircraft's accident history has generated some controversy over its perceived safety issues.[267]Indigo said:
What is an Osprey ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Boeing_V-22_OspreySeanT said:Truly bizarre helicopter in the sky over my house. Like a drone but massively sized up. Faintly sci-fi. Obama heading for the US Ambassador's House in Regent's Park?
0 -
Been travelling for work much of today so mot had a chance to comment and the only bits of the Gove speech I have gleaned are from on here and what has been reported on places like Sky.
Clearly the path that Leave seem to have chosen is not exactly the one I was in favour of and I don't yet know if that is a good or bad thing. It makes it more difficult to make a clear economic argument but obviously makes the migration argument uh simpler and does rather kill the Remain argument about not knowing which.kind of Leave we would be voting for.
It makes no difference at all to my intention to vote Leave because even a position outside the EEA is still preferable to a position inside the EU.
I can't fully defend the Leave choice as clearly it is not the one I would have made. But they had to jump one way or the other and I glad they have done it early in the campaign. It still beats the alternative of EU membership by a very long way.
0 -
National - NBC/Survey Monkey - Sample 13,002
Trump 46 .. Cruz 28 .. Kasich 19
Clinton 50 .. Sanders 43
Clinton 48 .. Trump 39
Clinton 46 .. Cruz 38
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/trump-leads-kasich-support-reaches-new-high-ahead-n-y-n5578260 -
Number of Nobel Peace Prizes wonDavid_Evershed said:
It is NATO which has the capacity to defend EU and other countries against Russia not the EU.Stark_Dawning said:Gove's expressed ambitions for the rest of Europe are surprising. The euro-sceptic mantra was always 'We're happy to see the EU work if that's what those countries want, but it's just not for us, thanks.' Now Gove is behaving like some latter-day Napoleon, lustful to impose his own fantasies and desires upon an entire continent. This could actually be almost dangerous. Many in the east see the EU as their only aegis against a waiting, watchful Russia. If Gove intends to smash all that up...
The EU: 1
NATO: Zero
Just saying0 -
Matt Hancock is useless on TV. Conservatives should keep him away from interviews.Layne said:Andrew Neil made a laughing stock of Matt Hancock on the Daily Politics.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgrB2yAPPlQ0 -
Interesting to see Clinton and Trump arguing that European countries should increase their military spending as they have not contributed enough and are relying on US support.David_Evershed said:
It is NATO which has the capacity to defend EU and other countries against Russia not the EU.Stark_Dawning said:Gove's expressed ambitions for the rest of Europe are surprising. The euro-sceptic mantra was always 'We're happy to see the EU work if that's what those countries want, but it's just not for us, thanks.' Now Gove is behaving like some latter-day Napoleon, lustful to impose his own fantasies and desires upon an entire continent. This could actually be almost dangerous. Many in the east see the EU as their only aegis against a waiting, watchful Russia. If Gove intends to smash all that up...
0 -
Stark_Dawning said:
Now Gove is behaving like some latter-day Napoleon, lustful to impose his own fantasies and desires upon an entire continent.
HitlerNapoleon once believed in a European Super-state!
Believe in BRITAIN!
Be LEAVE!
0 -
And Obama? Doesn't mean much at all!TheScreamingEagles said:
Number of Nobel Peace Prizes wonDavid_Evershed said:
It is NATO which has the capacity to defend EU and other countries against Russia not the EU.Stark_Dawning said:Gove's expressed ambitions for the rest of Europe are surprising. The euro-sceptic mantra was always 'We're happy to see the EU work if that's what those countries want, but it's just not for us, thanks.' Now Gove is behaving like some latter-day Napoleon, lustful to impose his own fantasies and desires upon an entire continent. This could actually be almost dangerous. Many in the east see the EU as their only aegis against a waiting, watchful Russia. If Gove intends to smash all that up...
The EU: 1
NATO: Zero
Just saying0 -
Barack Obama 1. - Call it toadying or because he was going to be the first coloured American President - but he won the prize BEFORE doing anything - which brought it, in my eyes into disrepute.TheScreamingEagles said:
Number of Nobel Peace Prizes wonDavid_Evershed said:
It is NATO which has the capacity to defend EU and other countries against Russia not the EU.Stark_Dawning said:Gove's expressed ambitions for the rest of Europe are surprising. The euro-sceptic mantra was always 'We're happy to see the EU work if that's what those countries want, but it's just not for us, thanks.' Now Gove is behaving like some latter-day Napoleon, lustful to impose his own fantasies and desires upon an entire continent. This could actually be almost dangerous. Many in the east see the EU as their only aegis against a waiting, watchful Russia. If Gove intends to smash all that up...
The EU: 1
NATO: Zero
Just saying0 -
And if and when we are out, you will still be at liberty to press for something closer to the arrangement you favour.Richard_Tyndall said:Been travelling for work much of today so mot had a chance to comment and the only bits of the Gove speech I have gleaned are from on here and what has been reported on places like Sky.
Clearly the path that Leave seem to have chosen is not exactly the one I was in favour of and I don't yet know if that is a good or bad thing. It makes it more difficult to make a clear economic argument but obviously makes the migration argument uh simpler and does rather kill the Remain argument about not knowing which.kind of Leave we would be voting for.
It makes no difference at all to my intention to vote Leave because even a position outside the EEA is still preferable to a position inside the EU.
I can't fully defend the Leave choice as clearly it is not the one I would have made. But they had to jump one way or the other and I glad they have done it early in the campaign. It still beats the alternative of EU membership by a very long way.0 -
"Ill advised intervention/meddling" is an interesting description of Russia's annexation of Crimea and proxy invasion of Eastern Ukraine.watford30 said:
Thankfully, given that the EU came very close to starting a war with Russia, and the ill advised intervention/meddling of some of its politician's in the Ukraine.David_Evershed said:
It is NATO which has the capacity to defend EU and other countries against Russia not the EU.Stark_Dawning said:Gove's expressed ambitions for the rest of Europe are surprising. The euro-sceptic mantra was always 'We're happy to see the EU work if that's what those countries want, but it's just not for us, thanks.' Now Gove is behaving like some latter-day Napoleon, lustful to impose his own fantasies and desires upon an entire continent. This could actually be almost dangerous. Many in the east see the EU as their only aegis against a waiting, watchful Russia. If Gove intends to smash all that up...
0 -
It is not Michael Gove attempting to cement his rule over Europe under one system of law. That is being done by the great masters in Brussels you so slavishly follow.Stark_Dawning said:Gove's expressed ambitions for the rest of Europe are surprising. The euro-sceptic mantra was always 'We're happy to see the EU work if that's what those countries want, but it's just not for us, thanks.' Now Gove is behaving like some latter-day Napoleon, lustful to impose his own fantasies and desires upon an entire continent. This could actually be almost dangerous. Many in the east see the EU as their only aegis against a waiting, watchful Russia. If Gove intends to smash all that up...
0 -
I know, I'm massive supporter of NATO.Sunil_Prasannan said:
And Obama? Doesn't mean much at all!TheScreamingEagles said:
Number of Nobel Peace Prizes wonDavid_Evershed said:
It is NATO which has the capacity to defend EU and other countries against Russia not the EU.Stark_Dawning said:Gove's expressed ambitions for the rest of Europe are surprising. The euro-sceptic mantra was always 'We're happy to see the EU work if that's what those countries want, but it's just not for us, thanks.' Now Gove is behaving like some latter-day Napoleon, lustful to impose his own fantasies and desires upon an entire continent. This could actually be almost dangerous. Many in the east see the EU as their only aegis against a waiting, watchful Russia. If Gove intends to smash all that up...
The EU: 1
NATO: Zero
Just saying
If I had to choose to pick one organisation I'd like to Remain a member of, The EU or NATO, it'd be NATO every time0 -
Independents in the New York (Democrat at least) primary can cast a provisional ballot.
No idea about the GOP one, the Bernsters are making all the noise on twitter about it. Could help Bernie a bit at the margins, and Trump a smidgen maybe.0 -
The charade of a peace prize you mention is not one of the serious prizes.TheScreamingEagles said:
Number of Nobel Peace Prizes wonDavid_Evershed said:
It is NATO which has the capacity to defend EU and other countries against Russia not the EU.Stark_Dawning said:Gove's expressed ambitions for the rest of Europe are surprising. The euro-sceptic mantra was always 'We're happy to see the EU work if that's what those countries want, but it's just not for us, thanks.' Now Gove is behaving like some latter-day Napoleon, lustful to impose his own fantasies and desires upon an entire continent. This could actually be almost dangerous. Many in the east see the EU as their only aegis against a waiting, watchful Russia. If Gove intends to smash all that up...
The EU: 1
NATO: Zero
Just saying
0 -
I think you're confusing issues and allowing Remain to muddy the waters.Richard_Tyndall said:Been travelling for work much of today so mot had a chance to comment and the only bits of the Gove speech I have gleaned are from on here and what has been reported on places like Sky.
Clearly the path that Leave seem to have chosen is not exactly the one I was in favour of and I don't yet know if that is a good or bad thing. It makes it more difficult to make a clear economic argument but obviously makes the migration argument uh simpler and does rather kill the Remain argument about not knowing which.kind of Leave we would be voting for.
It makes no difference at all to my intention to vote Leave because even a position outside the EEA is still preferable to a position inside the EU.
I can't fully defend the Leave choice as clearly it is not the one I would have made. But they had to jump one way or the other and I glad they have done it early in the campaign. It still beats the alternative of EU membership by a very long way.
"Ahhh but we want to know what will happen before we decide", they say.
No they don't, they want to stay in any circumstances and are simply attempting to lay traps.
Your knowledge and insight is unsurpassed on here, right or wrong the minor details are just that, they won't decide a single vote. Even if that's an exaggeration it will be so miniscule as to be irrelevant. I'm not fussed about immigration, I've met plenty who are, they'll vote Leave with the gentlest of persuasion but don't have the vaguest interest in EEA etc.
0 -
That has been the (quite reasonable and understandable) cry from US politicians for decades. Outside of the UK and possibly France I just don't see the political will for increases in defence spending that would satisfy the USMP_SE said:
Interesting to see Clinton and Trump arguing that European countries should increase their military spending as they have not contributed enough and are relying on US support.David_Evershed said:
It is NATO which has the capacity to defend EU and other countries against Russia not the EU.Stark_Dawning said:Gove's expressed ambitions for the rest of Europe are surprising. The euro-sceptic mantra was always 'We're happy to see the EU work if that's what those countries want, but it's just not for us, thanks.' Now Gove is behaving like some latter-day Napoleon, lustful to impose his own fantasies and desires upon an entire continent. This could actually be almost dangerous. Many in the east see the EU as their only aegis against a waiting, watchful Russia. If Gove intends to smash all that up...
0 -
One of a number of Nobel peace prizes that have brought the whole thing into disrepute.TheScreamingEagles said:
Number of Nobel Peace Prizes wonDavid_Evershed said:
It is NATO which has the capacity to defend EU and other countries against Russia not the EU.Stark_Dawning said:Gove's expressed ambitions for the rest of Europe are surprising. The euro-sceptic mantra was always 'We're happy to see the EU work if that's what those countries want, but it's just not for us, thanks.' Now Gove is behaving like some latter-day Napoleon, lustful to impose his own fantasies and desires upon an entire continent. This could actually be almost dangerous. Many in the east see the EU as their only aegis against a waiting, watchful Russia. If Gove intends to smash all that up...
The EU: 1
NATO: Zero
Just saying0 -
It'd be like awarding the Peace prize to the army. The EU probably got it because it wasn't militarily focused.TheScreamingEagles said:
Number of Nobel Peace Prizes wonDavid_Evershed said:
It is NATO which has the capacity to defend EU and other countries against Russia not the EU.Stark_Dawning said:Gove's expressed ambitions for the rest of Europe are surprising. The euro-sceptic mantra was always 'We're happy to see the EU work if that's what those countries want, but it's just not for us, thanks.' Now Gove is behaving like some latter-day Napoleon, lustful to impose his own fantasies and desires upon an entire continent. This could actually be almost dangerous. Many in the east see the EU as their only aegis against a waiting, watchful Russia. If Gove intends to smash all that up...
The EU: 1
NATO: Zero
Just saying0 -
The aim of Vote Leave is one I would certainly agree with as an eventual position. My preference would be to retreat to EEA/EFTA first though.taffys said:
And if and when we are out, you will still be at liberty to press for something closer to the arrangement you favour.Richard_Tyndall said:Been travelling for work much of today so mot had a chance to comment and the only bits of the Gove speech I have gleaned are from on here and what has been reported on places like Sky.
Clearly the path that Leave seem to have chosen is not exactly the one I was in favour of and I don't yet know if that is a good or bad thing. It makes it more difficult to make a clear economic argument but obviously makes the migration argument uh simpler and does rather kill the Remain argument about not knowing which.kind of Leave we would be voting for.
It makes no difference at all to my intention to vote Leave because even a position outside the EEA is still preferable to a position inside the EU.
I can't fully defend the Leave choice as clearly it is not the one I would have made. But they had to jump one way or the other and I glad they have done it early in the campaign. It still beats the alternative of EU membership by a very long way.
Presumably, what they have outlined is not inconsistent with being part of EFTA though, in the same manner as the Swiss are (but are not in EEA).0 -
Wildly O/t but to whoever recommended me to try bacalhau while in Maderia, (Dr Fox???) had it with chickpeas last night. Could easily use it for shoe leather, but the same could be said of biltong and similar dried meats.
Tasted OK, though, once I got my teeth into it. Would give it another go.0 -
Where have they said that? I think Gove was saying that it may lead to people in other countries to consider the position of their country. That can't be a bad thing.OllyT said:
The issue to me is how we expect to get the improbably optimistic deal that has Gove has outlined out of the EU, after Leave have run a campaign that explicitly includes hoping to bring the EU down.RobD said:
Other countries won't leave automatically if we do. If they wish to, they will undoubtedly vote on the matter. Not sure what the issue is.OllyT said:
So " it's in the best interests of everyone else on the continent too"GeoffM said:
Gove is doing what is in the interests of the UK.OllyT said:
Only yesterday Leavers berating Obama having an opinion on Brexit, now Gove has taken it up on himself to try and wreck the EU whether the other countries like it or not, he's either delusional or arrogant beyond belief.taffys said:
Gove said that if you vote leave you will trigger a great democratic contagion in Europe. He portrayed us as the saviour of a continent crying out for change.Casino_Royale said:
Gove didn't say that.Alanbrooke said:
Haven't seen the news so just picking up on that comment if Gove said it he is a titCarlottaVance said:
@bbclaurak: Vote Leave asked if they hope Brexit would trigger the end of the whole EU ? 'Certainly'Casino_Royale said:
Citation needed.CarlottaVance said:
LEAVE's spin....Casino_Royale said:Very different to the spin.
This referendum is proving to be a great destroyer of reputations - nearly all of them Conservative - Cameron, Osborne, Gove, javid - who's next ?
That's quite a positive vision for the future, for me.
It happens to be in the best interests of everyone else on the continent too (although not their elite), but that's just a spectacularly lucky bonus ball for everybody.
Do they get a vote to decide or does Gove just decide for the whole of Europe?0 -
There are quite a few countries in NATO, especially the tiddlers (Iceland, Luxembourg) which spend sweet FA on defence and get a totally free ride off of the nuclear powers within NATO.Richard_Tyndall said:
That has been the (quite reasonable and understandable) cry from US politicians for decades. Outside of the UK and possibly France I just don't see the political will for increases in defence spending that would satisfy the USMP_SE said:
Interesting to see Clinton and Trump arguing that European countries should increase their military spending as they have not contributed enough and are relying on US support.David_Evershed said:
It is NATO which has the capacity to defend EU and other countries against Russia not the EU.Stark_Dawning said:Gove's expressed ambitions for the rest of Europe are surprising. The euro-sceptic mantra was always 'We're happy to see the EU work if that's what those countries want, but it's just not for us, thanks.' Now Gove is behaving like some latter-day Napoleon, lustful to impose his own fantasies and desires upon an entire continent. This could actually be almost dangerous. Many in the east see the EU as their only aegis against a waiting, watchful Russia. If Gove intends to smash all that up...
0 -
Not really what I was looking for either. I will need to think about it. The single passport is probably the most economically important thing that we have got out of the EU and a significant part of our tax base is dependent on it. Like you I think I would concede freedom of movement in a heart beat to keep it.Richard_Tyndall said:Been travelling for work much of today so mot had a chance to comment and the only bits of the Gove speech I have gleaned are from on here and what has been reported on places like Sky.
Clearly the path that Leave seem to have chosen is not exactly the one I was in favour of and I don't yet know if that is a good or bad thing. It makes it more difficult to make a clear economic argument but obviously makes the migration argument uh simpler and does rather kill the Remain argument about not knowing which.kind of Leave we would be voting for.
It makes no difference at all to my intention to vote Leave because even a position outside the EEA is still preferable to a position inside the EU.
I can't fully defend the Leave choice as clearly it is not the one I would have made. But they had to jump one way or the other and I glad they have done it early in the campaign. It still beats the alternative of EU membership by a very long way.
I can understand why they have sought to go the way they have as it keeps more of what is a very broad coalition rather than a party together but I can't deny that I am disappointed that there is not a clearer, colder view of where our key interests are.0 -
AV Election Result Alert
John Thurso Elected To Parliament For Life Thanks To The Votes Of Three Lib Dem Aristocrats
If you can understand how this works, you’re doing well.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/oh-lordy?utm_term=.xqBnPpXExE#.ac2PrjONLN0 -
Oh absolutely. I thought I had made clear this doesn't change my intention to campaign hard for Brexit. I am just saying it is not the way I would have jumped personally.taffys said:
And if and when we are out, you will still be at liberty to press for something closer to the arrangement you favour.Richard_Tyndall said:Been travelling for work much of today so mot had a chance to comment and the only bits of the Gove speech I have gleaned are from on here and what has been reported on places like Sky.
Clearly the path that Leave seem to have chosen is not exactly the one I was in favour of and I don't yet know if that is a good or bad thing. It makes it more difficult to make a clear economic argument but obviously makes the migration argument uh simpler and does rather kill the Remain argument about not knowing which.kind of Leave we would be voting for.
It makes no difference at all to my intention to vote Leave because even a position outside the EEA is still preferable to a position inside the EU.
I can't fully defend the Leave choice as clearly it is not the one I would have made. But they had to jump one way or the other and I glad they have done it early in the campaign. It still beats the alternative of EU membership by a very long way.
But then I if I were to be any more critical than that of the decision I would be doing what the Remain crowd on here like to do; standing on the deck of the Titanic arguing about the colour if the lifeboats.0 -
In fairness 3 votes is pretty good for a Lib Dem.TheScreamingEagles said:AV Election Result Alert
John Thurso Elected To Parliament For Life Thanks To The Votes Of Three Lib Dem Aristocrats
If you can understand how this works, you’re doing well.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/oh-lordy?utm_term=.xqBnPpXExE#.ac2PrjONLN0 -
HuzzahTheScreamingEagles said:AV Election Result Alert
John Thurso Elected To Parliament For Life Thanks To The Votes Of Three Lib Dem Aristocrats
If you can understand how this works, you’re doing well.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/oh-lordy?utm_term=.xqBnPpXExE#.ac2PrjONLN
Scottish Viscounts Rule Ok ....
0 -
Only one not to bother with a statementTheScreamingEagles said:AV Election Result Alert
John Thurso Elected To Parliament For Life Thanks To The Votes Of Three Lib Dem Aristocrats
If you can understand how this works, you’re doing well.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/oh-lordy?utm_term=.xqBnPpXExE#.ac2PrjONLN
http://www.parliament.uk/documents/publications-records/House-of-Lords-Publications/By-elections/Lords-notice-candidate-list-Apr-2016-Avebury.pdf0 -
Was there a recount ?? ....DavidL said:
In fairness 3 votes is pretty good for a Lib Dem.TheScreamingEagles said:AV Election Result Alert
John Thurso Elected To Parliament For Life Thanks To The Votes Of Three Lib Dem Aristocrats
If you can understand how this works, you’re doing well.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/oh-lordy?utm_term=.xqBnPpXExE#.ac2PrjONLN
0 -
Scot LD aims.
"The same poll showed that the Greens had lost much of their earlier lead over the Liberal Democrats, with now just one point separating the two parties. With just over two weeks to go, it must surely be possible to overtake them. "
http://www.libdemvoice.org/willie-rennies-most-embarrassing-moments-and-his-favourite-films-50215.html0 -
rcs1000 said:
But then again he forgot someone of the other key rulesIndigo said:
Rather surprised he hasn't read that bible on the subject "Everything is Negotiable" by Gavin Kennedywatford30 said:
As Cameron discovered a few weeks ago.weejonnie said:I see no reason in not trying to make impossible demands at the start of any negotiation. Unless you set up the widest demands you're going to be out-negotiated as you have nothing to give up.
One can imagine him wandering into his local car dealership and paying far more for a vehicle than the original sticker price.In Praise of Mother Hubbard
A cardinal negotiating rule is to shock them with your opening offer. Never start with any offer that is close to where you want to settle. Leave yourself room to negotiate.
- When you start with a shock offer, it forces the other guy to reconsider his
expectations about the current value of that item. His expectations are always
influenced by your opening offer, and more often than not, an extreme opening offer
will alter his expectations in a direction that will favor you.
In negotiating, goodwill is not contagious.
Toughness in negotiating pays the big dividends
Nothing should ever be given away in a negotiation without some movement by the other party.
So when Blair negotiated away part of the UK rebate on payments to the EU for vague promises about them reducing the cost of the Common Agriculture Policy he was not following a sound negotiating stategy. Who knew?0 -
Interestingly this afternoon a good friend of mine has come out for Leave. He is a former Tory county and district councillor, loaths UKIP and is someone I had down as a probable Remain.
His reason has nothing to do with the arguments per second but is based on disgust at what he views as the dishonest and scaremongering way that Remain are conducting their campaign.
Remain might turn.out to be the Eurosceptic's trump card.0 -
Another alleged 'future leader' who is useless. There's quite a gang of them. When will Cameron back-track on his two terms promise?David_Evershed said:
Matt Hancock is useless on TV. Conservatives should keep him away from interviews.Layne said:Andrew Neil made a laughing stock of Matt Hancock on the Daily Politics.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgrB2yAPPlQ0 -
What's that rule in porn politics, never work with animals?
https://twitter.com/asabenn/status/7224524335831490560 -
What a count.JackW said:
HuzzahTheScreamingEagles said:AV Election Result Alert
John Thurso Elected To Parliament For Life Thanks To The Votes Of Three Lib Dem Aristocrats
If you can understand how this works, you’re doing well.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/oh-lordy?utm_term=.xqBnPpXExE#.ac2PrjONLN
Scottish Viscounts Rule Ok ....
0 -
John Thurso won in a landslide winning 100% of the vote !!
Scottish Viscounts Winning Here ....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-360844550 -
What might grab more attention is Michael Gove's flamboyant suggestion that if we leave the EU, British voters could trigger a wave of democratic liberation across the continent.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36084457
Does this mean they hope Brexit could collapse the whole EU? 'Certainly' - came the answer from senior members of the team, an ambition more bold than anything Outers have come up with so far.0 -
On thread.
At present, the UK:
1. Pays a gross £12.5 billion annually to the EU.
2. Receives about £4 billion back from the EU, to spent however on terms dictated by the EU, the bulk of which go to subsidise agribusiness within a perennially unreformed CAP.
3. Spends £280 billion annually on imports from the EU, in return for which the EU spends £220 billion on goods and services produced here, a net EU balance of payments deficit of £60 billion.
Leave essentially propose ending 1 and 2, but continuing with 3.
So in terms of TSE's parallel, it's not "like the man who divorces his wife & still expects dinner & a blowjob from her every night after the divorce". It's more a case that if there's a divorce the husband plans to refuse to continue to fund the wife's shopping habits (1) in the secure knowledge that the quality of the fringe benefits on offer from the wife (2) falls far short of what she claims of them, but he will nonetheless continue to support the kids as before in the form of some very generous maintenance payments (3).
The wife does not want to play ball, but her solicitor advises that it's the best deal she's going to get, unless she can use all of her nefarious means to persuade the husband not to walk out.
0 -
Time to abolish LIb Dem hereditaries. Wasting a perfectly good seat for a Tory one!TheScreamingEagles said:AV Election Result Alert
John Thurso Elected To Parliament For Life Thanks To The Votes Of Three Lib Dem Aristocrats
If you can understand how this works, you’re doing well.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/oh-lordy?utm_term=.xqBnPpXExE#.ac2PrjONLN0 -
No, just a viscount.JackW said:
Was there a recount ?? ....DavidL said:
In fairness 3 votes is pretty good for a Lib Dem.TheScreamingEagles said:AV Election Result Alert
John Thurso Elected To Parliament For Life Thanks To The Votes Of Three Lib Dem Aristocrats
If you can understand how this works, you’re doing well.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/oh-lordy?utm_term=.xqBnPpXExE#.ac2PrjONLN0 -
Absolutely.TCPoliticalBetting said:
What a count.JackW said:
HuzzahTheScreamingEagles said:AV Election Result Alert
John Thurso Elected To Parliament For Life Thanks To The Votes Of Three Lib Dem Aristocrats
If you can understand how this works, you’re doing well.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/oh-lordy?utm_term=.xqBnPpXExE#.ac2PrjONLN
Scottish Viscounts Rule Ok ....
It must have taken an age to tally the votes .... probably had to weigh them first .... I'm sure that's what you mean ?!?0 -
Been busy today also..but don't beat yourself up about it...as I posted earlier, anecdotally speaking to a lot of outers, it is immigration that is the issue. Not to have addressed that head on would have been to let those people down (I mentioned that apart from here in the rarified atmosphere of PB no one seemed to be keen on EEA/EFTA).Richard_Tyndall said:Been travelling for work much of today so mot had a chance to comment and the only bits of the Gove speech I have gleaned are from on here and what has been reported on places like Sky.
Clearly the path that Leave seem to have chosen is not exactly the one I was in favour of and I don't yet know if that is a good or bad thing. It makes it more difficult to make a clear economic argument but obviously makes the migration argument uh simpler and does rather kill the Remain argument about not knowing which.kind of Leave we would be voting for.
It makes no difference at all to my intention to vote Leave because even a position outside the EEA is still preferable to a position inside the EU.
I can't fully defend the Leave choice as clearly it is not the one I would have made. But they had to jump one way or the other and I glad they have done it early in the campaign. It still beats the alternative of EU membership by a very long way.
As one said last night to me when I posited the Norway model: "why can't we have the UK model?" And it seems if we vote Leave, that is just what we will get.0 -
Does this mean they hope Brexit could collapse the whole EU? 'Certainly' - came the answer from senior members of the team, an ambition more bold than anything Outers
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-360844570 -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36084457Scott_P said:What might grab more attention is Michael Gove's flamboyant suggestion that if we leave the EU, British voters could trigger a wave of democratic liberation across the continent.
Does this mean they hope Brexit could collapse the whole EU? 'Certainly' - came the answer from senior members of the team, an ambition more bold than anything Outers have come up with so far.
I strongly suspect that if the UK voted to leave and got a sensible deal it is all too likely that Sweden, Denmark, possibly Holland and possibly Ireland would follow.
Remain will no doubt argue that is why we will not get a good deal of course. But that rather indicates where the real problem lies.0 -
I have still got an old British passport somewhere. I must dig it out. Not sure my photo will be recognisable.DavidL said:
Not really what I was looking for either. I will need to think about it. The single passport is probably the most economically important thing that we have got out of the EU and a significant part of our tax base is dependent on it. Like you I think I would concede freedom of movement in a heart beat to keep it.Richard_Tyndall said:Been travelling for work much of today so mot had a chance to comment and the only bits of the Gove speech I have gleaned are from on here and what has been reported on places like Sky.
Clearly the path that Leave seem to have chosen is not exactly the one I was in favour of and I don't yet know if that is a good or bad thing. It makes it more difficult to make a clear economic argument but obviously makes the migration argument uh simpler and does rather kill the Remain argument about not knowing which.kind of Leave we would be voting for.
It makes no difference at all to my intention to vote Leave because even a position outside the EEA is still preferable to a position inside the EU.
I can't fully defend the Leave choice as clearly it is not the one I would have made. But they had to jump one way or the other and I glad they have done it early in the campaign. It still beats the alternative of EU membership by a very long way.
I can understand why they have sought to go the way they have as it keeps more of what is a very broad coalition rather than a party together but I can't deny that I am disappointed that there is not a clearer, colder view of where our key interests are.
It has a lifetime US visa in it so I can be in the vanguard of our future boom in export sales outside the EU.0 -
TitterAlastairMeeks said:
No, just a viscount.JackW said:
Was there a recount ?? ....DavidL said:
In fairness 3 votes is pretty good for a Lib Dem.TheScreamingEagles said:AV Election Result Alert
John Thurso Elected To Parliament For Life Thanks To The Votes Of Three Lib Dem Aristocrats
If you can understand how this works, you’re doing well.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/oh-lordy?utm_term=.xqBnPpXExE#.ac2PrjONLN
Must say they used a delightfully evil-looking photo of him.
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Chortle ..AlastairMeeks said:
No, just a viscount.JackW said:
Was there a recount ?? ....DavidL said:
In fairness 3 votes is pretty good for a Lib Dem.TheScreamingEagles said:AV Election Result Alert
John Thurso Elected To Parliament For Life Thanks To The Votes Of Three Lib Dem Aristocrats
If you can understand how this works, you’re doing well.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/oh-lordy?utm_term=.xqBnPpXExE#.ac2PrjONLN
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Anecdote: spoke to a retired relative this morning about EU. Occasional Mirror reader with Mail at weekends. Only thing that seems to have cut through is that there is massive economic risk if we leave, but on the other hand we could be like Norway, and decide our own laws.0
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Has the faxes from Brussells claim been debunked?rottenborough said:Anecdote: spoke to a retired relative this morning about EU. Occasional Mirror reader with Mail at weekends. Only thing that seems to have cut through is that there is massive economic risk if we leave, but on the other hand we could be like Norway, and decide our own laws.
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David - a few queries:DavidL said:
Not really what I was looking for either. I will need to think about it. The single passport is probably the most economically important thing that we have got out of the EU and a significant part of our tax base is dependent on it. Like you I think I would concede freedom of movement in a heart beat to keep it.Richard_Tyndall said:Been travelling for work much of today so mot had a chance to comment and the only bits of the Gove speech I have gleaned are from on here and what has been reported on places like Sky.
Clearly the path that Leave seem to have chosen is not exactly the one I was in favour of and I don't yet know if that is a good or bad thing. It makes it more difficult to make a clear economic argument but obviously makes the migration argument uh simpler and does rather kill the Remain argument about not knowing which.kind of Leave we would be voting for.
It makes no difference at all to my intention to vote Leave because even a position outside the EEA is still preferable to a position inside the EU.
I can't fully defend the Leave choice as clearly it is not the one I would have made. But they had to jump one way or the other and I glad they have done it early in the campaign. It still beats the alternative of EU membership by a very long way.
I can understand why they have sought to go the way they have as it keeps more of what is a very broad coalition rather than a party together but I can't deny that I am disappointed that there is not a clearer, colder view of where our key interests are.
1. what % of UK financial services exports to the EU would you say rely on passporting?
2. what year did passporting come in (properly)?
3. how relevant will passporting be when MIFIDII comes in and third country financial institutions will be able to sell in the EU provided their regulatory and supervisory regimes are broadly equivalent to those in the EU?0 -
I strongly suspect that if the UK voted to leave and got a sensible deal it is all too likely that Sweden, Denmark, possibly Holland and possibly Ireland would follow.DavidL said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36084457Scott_P said:What might grab more attention is Michael Gove's flamboyant suggestion that if we leave the EU, British voters could trigger a wave of democratic liberation across the continent.
Does this mean they hope Brexit could collapse the whole EU? 'Certainly' - came the answer from senior members of the team, an ambition more bold than anything Outers have come up with so far.
Remain will no doubt argue that is why we will not get a good deal of course. But that rather indicates where the real problem lies.
Quite so.
I remain (small r) ever hopeful that some of pb.com's softer Remainers - all decent and reasonable people - might find it within their hearts and heads to embrace their fundamental democratic instincts at the 11th hour, and vote accordingly.0 -
We hosted a dinner party on Saturday night. I'm under strict instructions at home NEVER to mention politics in company (can't understand why) but the subject of the referendum came up.
I'm sure you'll all be shocked to find out that the affluent metropolitan gay middle-aged vote was lining up 100% for Remain. I was probably the most Eurosceptical person in the room.0 -
TSE states
"This is like the man who divorces his wife & still expects dinner & a blowjob from her every night after the divorce"
But now the woman will feel free to have liaisons with whomever she wants; as will the man. Free love for both. What's not to like?0 -
I also hosted a dinner party on Saturday mt guests were surprised to find I was firmly voting out most of them think that because I've worked in Europe so much I'm a firm remainer.AlastairMeeks said:We hosted a dinner party on Saturday night. I'm under strict instructions at home NEVER to mention politics in company (can't understand why) but the subject of the referendum came up.
I'm sure you'll all be shocked to find out that the affluent metropolitan gay middle-aged vote was lining up 100% for Remain. I was probably the most Eurosceptical person in the room.0 -
Yes. Long ago.RobD said:
Has the faxes from Brussells claim been debunked?rottenborough said:Anecdote: spoke to a retired relative this morning about EU. Occasional Mirror reader with Mail at weekends. Only thing that seems to have cut through is that there is massive economic risk if we leave, but on the other hand we could be like Norway, and decide our own laws.
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Of course.RobD said:
Has the faxes from Brussells claim been debunked?rottenborough said:Anecdote: spoke to a retired relative this morning about EU. Occasional Mirror reader with Mail at weekends. Only thing that seems to have cut through is that there is massive economic risk if we leave, but on the other hand we could be like Norway, and decide our own laws.
They are PDFs now.0 -
Very good Phil.Wulfrun_Phil said:On thread.
At present, the UK:
1. Pays a gross £12.5 billion annually to the EU.
2. Receives about £4 billion back from the EU, to spent however on terms dictated by the EU, the bulk of which go to subsidise agribusiness within a perennially unreformed CAP.
3. Spends £280 billion annually on imports from the EU, in return for which the EU spends £220 billion on goods and services produced here, a net EU balance of payments deficit of £60 billion.
Leave essentially propose ending 1 and 2, but continuing with 3.
So in terms of TSE's parallel, it's not "like the man who divorces his wife & still expects dinner & a blowjob from her every night after the divorce". It's more a case that if there's a divorce the husband plans to refuse to continue to fund the wife's shopping habits (1) in the secure knowledge that the quality of the fringe benefits on offer from the wife (2) falls far short of what she claims of them, but he will nonetheless continue to support the kids as before in the form of some very generous maintenance payments (3).
The wife does not want to play ball, but her solicitor advises that it's the best deal she's going to get, unless she can use all of her nefarious means to persuade the husband not to walk out.
I think the only bit I would quibble with is that the balance of payments deficit for the last year we have full figures (2014) was somewhere north of £100 billion.0 -
Spoke to my aunt at the weekend who will be 90 on June 23rd. She thinks we are having a referendum on joining the EU. Following clarification she is in favour of Remain. Very unlikely that she votes though.Alanbrooke said:
I also hosted a dinner party on Saturday mt guests were surprised to find I was firmly voting out most of them think that because I've worked in Europe so much I'm a firm remainer.AlastairMeeks said:We hosted a dinner party on Saturday night. I'm under strict instructions at home NEVER to mention politics in company (can't understand why) but the subject of the referendum came up.
I'm sure you'll all be shocked to find out that the affluent metropolitan gay middle-aged vote was lining up 100% for Remain. I was probably the most Eurosceptical person in the room.0 -
Oh my, Godfrey Bloom has just quoted my tweet
https://twitter.com/goddersbloom/status/7224600580770447360 -
If my fundamental democratic instincts were distressed by being in the EU I would vote to leave.Casino_Royale said:
Quite so.
I remain (small r) ever hopeful that some of pb.com's softer Remainers - all decent and reasonable people - might find it within their hearts and heads to embrace their fundamental democratic instincts at the 11th hour, and vote accordingly.0 -
Go, Hillary go !JackW said:National - NBC/Survey Monkey - Sample 13,002
Trump 46 .. Cruz 28 .. Kasich 19
Clinton 50 .. Sanders 43
Clinton 48 .. Trump 39
Clinton 46 .. Cruz 38
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/trump-leads-kasich-support-reaches-new-high-ahead-n-y-n5578260 -
Here's the official Parliamentary notice of the by-election result.
Six other candidates all got zero votes.
At least it wasn't a tie with three people all getting one vote each and it then going to the drawing of lots.
https://www.parliament.uk/documents/publications-records/House-of-Lords-Publications/By-elections/Result-Liberal-Democrat-hereditary-peers-by-election-result-Avebury.pdf.pdf0
