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True but they were also the least inaccurate in their final polling and they at least had the Tories aheadsurbiton said:
Didn't Comres make the biggest "adjustments" post GE2016 ?HYUFD said:
Yes, same trend as yougov, a clear swing from Tory to UKIP since the election but with Comres the Tories still ahead at the momentsurbiton said:
Isn't this the same as GE2015 except a 3% swing from the Tories to UKIP ?TheScreamingEagles said:
http://www.comres.co.uk/comres-confirmed-as-most-accurate-2015-general-election-pollster/0 -
How about trashing the Conservative party to get a Leave vote?TheScreamingEagles said:
NopeSean_F said:
Would you consider it to be worth trashing the Conservative Party to get a Remain vote?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron wants to win, as an astute observer pointed out a few months ago, there's no way Leave win without winning a severe chunk of the Labour vote.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
Dave's strategy is to make sure Labour party/soft left voters don't view this referendum
1) As an opportunity to kick him and the Tories
2) Purely a Tory/right wing only event/fight
It was no coincidence Dave engaged in this PR stunt the week Corbyn backed Remain. It was designed for the Labour/soft left segment of the electorate0 -
No, but it appears that leavers consider that an acceptable risk.Sean_F said:
Would you consider it to be worth trashing the Conservative Party to get a Remain vote?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron wants to win, as an astute observer pointed out a few months ago, there's no way Leave win without winning a severe chunk of the Labour vote.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
Dave's strategy is to make sure Labour party/soft left voters don't view this referendum
1) As an opportunity to kick him and the Tories
2) Purely a Tory/right wing only event/fight
It was no coincidence Dave engaged in this PR stunt the week Corbyn backed Remain. It was designed for the Labour/soft left segment of the electorate0 -
Jo Grimond.MP_SE said:
That guy who leads the Lib Dems appears to be missing. His name eludes me at this moment in time...TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Perhaps but they have their referendum now so no need to rush back to the Tories, especially if it is a narrow Remainsurbiton said:
I also think they are the same 3% who bolted from the kippers when it looked like there might be a minority Labour government shored up the SNP.HYUFD said:
Yes, same trend as yougov, a clear swing from Tory to UKIP since the election but with Comres the Tories still ahead at the momentsurbiton said:
Isn't this the same as GE2015 except a 3% swing from the Tories to UKIP ?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
This time, you're destroying your reputation for economic competence, which is far more serious. But, if you think the EU is worth it, go for it.TheScreamingEagles said:
I heard the same arguments when Cameron legalised same sex marriage.Sean_F said:
That seems to be the current strategy.TheScreamingEagles said:
NopeSean_F said:
Would you consider it to be worth trashing the Conservative Party to get a Remain vote?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron wants to win, as an astute observer pointed out a few months ago, there's no way Leave win without winning a severe chunk of the Labour vote.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
Dave's strategy is to make sure Labour party/soft left voters don't view this referendum
1) As an opportunity to kick him and the Tories
2) Purely a Tory/right wing only event/fight
It was no coincidence Dave engaged in this PR stunt the week Corbyn backed Remain. It was designed for the Labour/soft left segment of the electorate0 -
Well we know if who the public would take with them on a lads holiday magaluf...TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
To summarise then, if David Cameron were a different person, he would be a different person.another_richard said:
Cameron's only in the Conservative party because of his background.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
If it had been a bit more Hampsteady and a bit less rural/financial then he would have happily been New Labour or LibDem.0 -
Paging Dr Sturgeon..TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Though interestingly the kippers have been doing very poorly in local elections.HYUFD said:
Yes, same trend as yougov, a clear swing from Tory to UKIP since the election but with Comres the Tories still ahead at the momentsurbiton said:
Isn't this the same as GE2015 except a 3% swing from the Tories to UKIP ?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
We shall see in May but what Farage really wants is a narrow Remain, a big Remain or ironically a Leave vote will not be good for UKIPfoxinsoxuk said:
Though interestingly the kippers have been doing very poorly in local elections.HYUFD said:
Yes, same trend as yougov, a clear swing from Tory to UKIP since the election but with Comres the Tories still ahead at the momentsurbiton said:
Isn't this the same as GE2015 except a 3% swing from the Tories to UKIP ?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Yes, but anything serious or financial and Cameron remains your man by a distance. His death is somewhat exaggerated.FrancisUrquhart said:
Well we know if who the public would take with them on a lads holiday magaluf...TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
I worry more about the 19% who would choose Jezza to manage their finances! It shows that not declaring income and filing late is really quite popular.Theuniondivvie said:
Paging Dr Sturgeon..TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Except we're not. The ratings would be falling even if there was no referendum.Sean_F said:
This time, you're destroying your reputation for economic competence, which is far more serious. But, if you think the EU is worth it, go for it.TheScreamingEagles said:
I heard the same arguments when Cameron legalised same sex marriage.Sean_F said:
That seems to be the current strategy.TheScreamingEagles said:
NopeSean_F said:
Would you consider it to be worth trashing the Conservative Party to get a Remain vote?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron wants to win, as an astute observer pointed out a few months ago, there's no way Leave win without winning a severe chunk of the Labour vote.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
Dave's strategy is to make sure Labour party/soft left voters don't view this referendum
1) As an opportunity to kick him and the Tories
2) Purely a Tory/right wing only event/fight
It was no coincidence Dave engaged in this PR stunt the week Corbyn backed Remain. It was designed for the Labour/soft left segment of the electorate0 -
No they moved on from him. Steel? Maybe Kennedy? Something like that.surbiton said:
Jo Grimond.MP_SE said:
That guy who leads the Lib Dems appears to be missing. His name eludes me at this moment in time...TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Is probably sympathy from fellow late filers.foxinsoxuk said:
I worry more about the 19% who would choose Jezza to manage their finances! It shows that not declaring income and filing late is really quite popular.Theuniondivvie said:
Paging Dr Sturgeon..TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Yes, it's Right-Wing Virtue Signalling.surbiton said:
I also think they are the same 3% who bolted from the kippers when it looked like there might be a minority Labour government shored up the SNP.HYUFD said:
Yes, same trend as yougov, a clear swing from Tory to UKIP since the election but with Comres the Tories still ahead at the momentsurbiton said:
Isn't this the same as GE2015 except a 3% swing from the Tories to UKIP ?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
The last ComRes poll (in Daily Mail) was 37/35.
Is this poll same methodology or is one online and one phone?
Either way, surprisingly good poll for Con given recent events.0 -
A good poll for Labour really. Comres Online have consistently produced the best results for the Tories since May 2015.0
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I remember now. Tim Fallon.DavidL said:
No they moved on from him. Steel? Maybe Kennedy? Something like that.surbiton said:
Jo Grimond.MP_SE said:
That guy who leads the Lib Dems appears to be missing. His name eludes me at this moment in time...TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
But that was a phone poll - 5% is by some margin the smallest Tory lead from a Comres Online poll this Parliament.MikeL said:The last ComRes poll (in Daily Mail) was 37/35.
Is this poll same methodology or is one online and one phone?
Either way, surprisingly good poll for Con given recent events.0 -
I lost the cigarette paper I was trying to insert between the views of Cameron and Clegg, it got jammed.matt said:
To summarise then, if David Cameron were a different person, he would be a different person.another_richard said:
Cameron's only in the Conservative party because of his background.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
If it had been a bit more Hampsteady and a bit less rural/financial then he would have happily been New Labour or LibDem.0 -
As an aside, the bar graph shows an interesting mismatch between the love for Michael Gove here and the Conservative voter, never mind the wider world.0
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Jim Farron?MP_SE said:
I remember now. Tim Fallon.DavidL said:
No they moved on from him. Steel? Maybe Kennedy? Something like that.surbiton said:
Jo Grimond.MP_SE said:
That guy who leads the Lib Dems appears to be missing. His name eludes me at this moment in time...TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Am I the only one struck by how little attention was given to everyone's tax returns once they were published?
Big rumpus about Cameron - but then when Osborne, Corbyn, Johnson, Sturgeon published their tax returns there was very little comment. I know there was a bit about Corbyn's pensions - but only in a light hearted fashion. Nothing was really said about the substance of anyone's return (other than Cameron).
I wonder if some people didn't really appreciate what info goes in a tax return? ie it's just a series of numbers (which add up) - it doesn't tell you the source of things like dividends.
So one minute lots of talk re how everyone will have to publish - then very quickly everyone lost interest in the idea.0 -
The scariest number from those finding, 21% would trust Jahadi Jez's to negotiate with terrorists...0
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That graph is based off current voting intention, so you better just hope that the one's that don't like Cameron haven't already leftmatt said:As an aside, the bar graph shows an interesting mismatch between the love for Michael Gove here and the Conservative voter, never mind the wider world.
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Not Michael?DavidL said:
Jim Farron?MP_SE said:
I remember now. Tim Fallon.DavidL said:
No they moved on from him. Steel? Maybe Kennedy? Something like that.surbiton said:
Jo Grimond.MP_SE said:
That guy who leads the Lib Dems appears to be missing. His name eludes me at this moment in time...TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
The fact that some believe a 5 point Con lead is a disappointment given the events of the last few weeks clearly indicates that JICIPM .... or not.0
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Well they are his friends. Surely they could sort something out.FrancisUrquhart said:The scariest number from those finding, 21% would trust Jahadi Jez's to negotiate with terrorists...
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I think you are. All the government's emphasis is on how weak and desperate the UK's economic position is, and thus how disastrous it would be to leave the EU.TheScreamingEagles said:
Except we're not. The ratings would be falling even if there was no referendum.Sean_F said:
This time, you're destroying your reputation for economic competence, which is far more serious. But, if you think the EU is worth it, go for it.TheScreamingEagles said:
I heard the same arguments when Cameron legalised same sex marriage.Sean_F said:
That seems to be the current strategy.TheScreamingEagles said:
NopeSean_F said:
Would you consider it to be worth trashing the Conservative Party to get a Remain vote?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron wants to win, as an astute observer pointed out a few months ago, there's no way Leave win without winning a severe chunk of the Labour vote.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
Dave's strategy is to make sure Labour party/soft left voters don't view this referendum
1) As an opportunity to kick him and the Tories
2) Purely a Tory/right wing only event/fight
It was no coincidence Dave engaged in this PR stunt the week Corbyn backed Remain. It was designed for the Labour/soft left segment of the electorate0 -
Very likely, we had plenty of people on here saying that politicians should all publish their tax return so we can see if they avoiding tax in any off-shore accounts... it would be a little odd to declare on your tax returns items you intended to avoid paying the tax on I would have thought!MikeL said:I wonder if some people didn't really appreciate what info goes in a tax return? ie it's just a series of numbers (which add up) - it doesn't tell you the source of things like dividends.
0 -
Most of you Leavers are predicting a short term hit to the economy were we to leave, don't be surprised if Remain keep on using that ammo.Sean_F said:
I think you are. All the government's emphasis is on how weak and desperate the UK's economic position is, and thus how disastrous it would be to leave the EU.TheScreamingEagles said:
Except we're not. The ratings would be falling even if there was no referendum.Sean_F said:
This time, you're destroying your reputation for economic competence, which is far more serious. But, if you think the EU is worth it, go for it.TheScreamingEagles said:
I heard the same arguments when Cameron legalised same sex marriage.Sean_F said:
That seems to be the current strategy.TheScreamingEagles said:
NopeSean_F said:
Would you consider it to be worth trashing the Conservative Party to get a Remain vote?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron wants to win, as an astute observer pointed out a few months ago, there's no way Leave win without winning a severe chunk of the Labour vote.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
Dave's strategy is to make sure Labour party/soft left voters don't view this referendum
1) As an opportunity to kick him and the Tories
2) Purely a Tory/right wing only event/fight
It was no coincidence Dave engaged in this PR stunt the week Corbyn backed Remain. It was designed for the Labour/soft left segment of the electorate0 -
Some of you are so funny you ought to be on an ITV talent show!FrancisUrquhart said:
Not Michael?DavidL said:
Jim Farron?MP_SE said:
I remember now. Tim Fallon.DavidL said:
No they moved on from him. Steel? Maybe Kennedy? Something like that.surbiton said:
Jo Grimond.MP_SE said:
That guy who leads the Lib Dems appears to be missing. His name eludes me at this moment in time...TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Second place in that one! Perhaps Boris and Nigel are thought to be too likely to provoke the terrorists.FrancisUrquhart said:The scariest number from those finding, 21% would trust Jahadi Jez's to negotiate with terrorists...
13% want to go on holiday with Jezza. Its good to see motorcycle tours of Communist states are so popular.0 -
The Gerald Ratner approach to PR.Sean_F said:
I think you are. All the government's emphasis is on how weak and desperate the UK's economic position is, and thus how disastrous it would be to leave the EU.TheScreamingEagles said:
Except we're not. The ratings would be falling even if there was no referendum.Sean_F said:
This time, you're destroying your reputation for economic competence, which is far more serious. But, if you think the EU is worth it, go for it.TheScreamingEagles said:
I heard the same arguments when Cameron legalised same sex marriage.Sean_F said:
That seems to be the current strategy.TheScreamingEagles said:
NopeSean_F said:
Would you consider it to be worth trashing the Conservative Party to get a Remain vote?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron wants to win, as an astute observer pointed out a few months ago, there's no way Leave win without winning a severe chunk of the Labour vote.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
Dave's strategy is to make sure Labour party/soft left voters don't view this referendum
1) As an opportunity to kick him and the Tories
2) Purely a Tory/right wing only event/fight
It was no coincidence Dave engaged in this PR stunt the week Corbyn backed Remain. It was designed for the Labour/soft left segment of the electorate
0 -
Yes. I also got the impression people might think that it would detail which companies you had investments in - ie where you were getting dividends from etc.Indigo said:
Very likely, we had plenty of people on here saying that politicians should all publish their tax return so we can see if they avoiding tax in any off-shore accounts... it would be a little odd to declare on your tax returns items you intended to avoid paying the tax on I would have thought!MikeL said:I wonder if some people didn't really appreciate what info goes in a tax return? ie it's just a series of numbers (which add up) - it doesn't tell you the source of things like dividends.
But in fact it's just a list of numbers - it doesn't actually tell anyone anything other than how much income is being received from each type of source.
I suspect the whole idea is now going to get forgotten very quickly.0 -
Ouch. That's pretty brutal. At least you didn't say BGT.OldKingCole said:
Some of you are so funny you ought to be on an ITV talent show!FrancisUrquhart said:
Not Michael?DavidL said:
Jim Farron?MP_SE said:
I remember now. Tim Fallon.DavidL said:
No they moved on from him. Steel? Maybe Kennedy? Something like that.surbiton said:
Jo Grimond.MP_SE said:
That guy who leads the Lib Dems appears to be missing. His name eludes me at this moment in time...TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Better hope there isn't a Eurozone originating recession in the year or so after a remain vote thenTheScreamingEagles said:
Most of you Leavers are predicting a short term hit to the economy were we to leave, don't be surprised if Remain keep on using that ammo.Sean_F said:
I think you are. All the government's emphasis is on how weak and desperate the UK's economic position is, and thus how disastrous it would be to leave the EU.TheScreamingEagles said:
Except we're not. The ratings would be falling even if there was no referendum.Sean_F said:
This time, you're destroying your reputation for economic competence, which is far more serious. But, if you think the EU is worth it, go for it.TheScreamingEagles said:
I heard the same arguments when Cameron legalised same sex marriage.Sean_F said:
That seems to be the current strategy.TheScreamingEagles said:
NopeSean_F said:
Would you consider it to be worth trashing the Conservative Party to get a Remain vote?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron wants to win, as an astute observer pointed out a few months ago, there's no way Leave win without winning a severe chunk of the Labour vote.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
Dave's strategy is to make sure Labour party/soft left voters don't view this referendum
1) As an opportunity to kick him and the Tories
2) Purely a Tory/right wing only event/fight
It was no coincidence Dave engaged in this PR stunt the week Corbyn backed Remain. It was designed for the Labour/soft left segment of the electorate
0 -
Let's just say that Remain (including Cameron) aren't very upbeat about the UK's future.TheScreamingEagles said:
Most of you Leavers are predicting a short term hit to the economy were we to leave, don't be surprised if Remain keep on using that ammo.Sean_F said:
I think you are. All the government's emphasis is on how weak and desperate the UK's economic position is, and thus how disastrous it would be to leave the EU.TheScreamingEagles said:
Except we're not. The ratings would be falling even if there was no referendum.Sean_F said:
This time, you're destroying your reputation for economic competence, which is far more serious. But, if you think the EU is worth it, go for it.TheScreamingEagles said:
I heard the same arguments when Cameron legalised same sex marriage.Sean_F said:
That seems to be the current strategy.TheScreamingEagles said:
NopeSean_F said:
Would you consider it to be worth trashing the Conservative Party to get a Remain vote?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron wants to win, as an astute observer pointed out a few months ago, there's no way Leave win without winning a severe chunk of the Labour vote.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
Dave's strategy is to make sure Labour party/soft left voters don't view this referendum
1) As an opportunity to kick him and the Tories
2) Purely a Tory/right wing only event/fight
It was no coincidence Dave engaged in this PR stunt the week Corbyn backed Remain. It was designed for the Labour/soft left segment of the electorate
And, that's not good for the government of the day.0 -
Too wee, too poor, too stupid.Sean_F said:
I think you are. All the government's emphasis is on how weak and desperate the UK's economic position is, and thus how disastrous it would be to leave the EU.TheScreamingEagles said:
Except we're not. The ratings would be falling even if there was no referendum.Sean_F said:
This time, you're destroying your reputation for economic competence, which is far more serious. But, if you think the EU is worth it, go for it.TheScreamingEagles said:
I heard the same arguments when Cameron legalised same sex marriage.Sean_F said:
That seems to be the current strategy.TheScreamingEagles said:
NopeSean_F said:
Would you consider it to be worth trashing the Conservative Party to get a Remain vote?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron wants to win, as an astute observer pointed out a few months ago, there's no way Leave win without winning a severe chunk of the Labour vote.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
Dave's strategy is to make sure Labour party/soft left voters don't view this referendum
1) As an opportunity to kick him and the Tories
2) Purely a Tory/right wing only event/fight
It was no coincidence Dave engaged in this PR stunt the week Corbyn backed Remain. It was designed for the Labour/soft left segment of the electorate0 -
Socially I would agree with you but Cameron and Osborne are both on the right in economic policy. And that is the way I for one like it.SeanT said:
No, there's a deeper truth here. Cameron's values are absolutely those of metrosexual New Labour. He's Blairite to the core. And Cleggite.matt said:
To summarise then, if David Cameron were a different person, he would be a different person.another_richard said:
Cameron's only in the Conservative party because of his background.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
If it had been a bit more Hampsteady and a bit less rural/financial then he would have happily been New Labour or LibDem.
Only tribal loyalty and filial piety - and, most of all, sheer ambition - kept him in the Tory party. It was the best, most commodious vehicle in which to advance his career, as a keen Old Etonian who thought he'd be "quite good as a PM".
But ideologically he is dead centre, and socially he is notably liberal.0 -
Even when the families abscond he won't take the message onboard.richardDodd said:I see the Pope is proving, yet again,what a total Prat he is..
You might think that getting anally raped by a migrant would change someone's mind (not the Pope I hasten to say) - but even that didn't do the trick.0 -
Managed decline has been the fashion in all parties basically since Thatcher went. It seems to be heretical to suggest they we could be good at something, on our own, perish the thought! Its curious that a lot of country less rich, less powerful, much less well connected than the UK seem to do rather well for themselves despite not being shackled to part of a custom union and incipient superstate.Sean_F said:
Let's just say that Remain (including Cameron) aren't very upbeat about the UK's future.TheScreamingEagles said:
Most of you Leavers are predicting a short term hit to the economy were we to leave, don't be surprised if Remain keep on using that ammo.Sean_F said:
I think you are. All the government's emphasis is on how weak and desperate the UK's economic position is, and thus how disastrous it would be to leave the EU.TheScreamingEagles said:
Except we're not. The ratings would be falling even if there was no referendum.Sean_F said:
This time, you're destroying your reputation for economic competence, which is far more serious. But, if you think the EU is worth it, go for it.TheScreamingEagles said:
I heard the same arguments when Cameron legalised same sex marriage.Sean_F said:
That seems to be the current strategy.TheScreamingEagles said:
NopeSean_F said:
Would you consider it to be worth trashing the Conservative Party to get a Remain vote?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron wants to win, as an astute observer pointed out a few months ago, there's no way Leave win without winning a severe chunk of the Labour vote.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
Dave's strategy is to make sure Labour party/soft left voters don't view this referendum
1) As an opportunity to kick him and the Tories
2) Purely a Tory/right wing only event/fight
It was no coincidence Dave engaged in this PR stunt the week Corbyn backed Remain. It was designed for the Labour/soft left segment of the electorate
And, that's not good for the government of the day.0 -
I wouldn't wish to be a member of Lib or LibDem party led by Cameron. And before anyone says well.....DavidL said:
Socially I would agree with you but Cameron and Osborne are both on the right in economic policy. And that is the way I for one like it.SeanT said:
No, there's a deeper truth here. Cameron's values are absolutely those of metrosexual New Labour. He's Blairite to the core. And Cleggite.matt said:
To summarise then, if David Cameron were a different person, he would be a different person.another_richard said:
Cameron's only in the Conservative party because of his background.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
If it had been a bit more Hampsteady and a bit less rural/financial then he would have happily been New Labour or LibDem.
Only tribal loyalty and filial piety - and, most of all, sheer ambition - kept him in the Tory party. It was the best, most commodious vehicle in which to advance his career, as a keen Old Etonian who thought he'd be "quite good as a PM".
But ideologically he is dead centre, and socially he is notably liberal.
I've been a member of both!0 -
Can we ever trust the pollsters again after the debacle of GE2015?TheScreamingEagles said:
Matt Singh and Populus did some work on this recently why the phone polls might be more accurate.
http://www.populus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Polls-Apart-29-March-2016.pdf
Whilst ComRes did something just before Christmas
http://www.comres.co.uk/eu-referendum-all-still-to-play-for-by-not-neck-and-neck/0 -
I dare say Clegg was a bit off to the right for your taste as well, since he is almost a carbon copy of Cameron. Would I be right it thinking your sympathies are more in the Simon Hughes end of the party ?OldKingCole said:I wouldn't wish to be a member of Lib or LibDem party led by Cameron. And before anyone says well.....
I've been a member of both!
0 -
What's your evidence that Cameron and Osborne are 'on the right in economic terms' ?DavidL said:
Socially I would agree with you but Cameron and Osborne are both on the right in economic policy. And that is the way I for one like it.SeanT said:
No, there's a deeper truth here. Cameron's values are absolutely those of metrosexual New Labour. He's Blairite to the core. And Cleggite.matt said:
To summarise then, if David Cameron were a different person, he would be a different person.another_richard said:
Cameron's only in the Conservative party because of his background.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
If it had been a bit more Hampsteady and a bit less rural/financial then he would have happily been New Labour or LibDem.
Only tribal loyalty and filial piety - and, most of all, sheer ambition - kept him in the Tory party. It was the best, most commodious vehicle in which to advance his career, as a keen Old Etonian who thought he'd be "quite good as a PM".
But ideologically he is dead centre, and socially he is notably liberal.
Their economic strategy has been the same as that of the Blair government, namely welfare consumerism.
The tactical difference is that they prefer to subsidise the consumerism of Conservative voting blocs while Labour subsidised Labour voting blocs.
0 -
I can imagine a tight result where the pollster coming closest on vote share actually calls it for the wrong winner.SeanT said:
This referendum is a huge test for them. If they screw up AGAIN....Sunil_Prasannan said:
Can we ever trust the pollsters again after the debacle of GE2015?TheScreamingEagles said:
Matt Singh and Populus did some work on this recently why the phone polls might be more accurate.
http://www.populus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Polls-Apart-29-March-2016.pdf
Whilst ComRes did something just before Christmas
http://www.comres.co.uk/eu-referendum-all-still-to-play-for-by-not-neck-and-neck/
And it's also very very hard to poll. Entirely unprecedented vote. Don't envy them.
But the company that gets it right will reap big rewards.0 -
And the manner in which he did that seriously damaged the voluntary party, and significantly shrunk the membership, too.TheScreamingEagles said:
I heard the same arguments when Cameron legalised same sex marriage.Sean_F said:
That seems to be the current strategy.TheScreamingEagles said:
NopeSean_F said:
Would you consider it to be worth trashing the Conservative Party to get a Remain vote?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron wants to win, as an astute observer pointed out a few months ago, there's no way Leave win without winning a severe chunk of the Labour vote.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
Dave's strategy is to make sure Labour party/soft left voters don't view this referendum
1) As an opportunity to kick him and the Tories
2) Purely a Tory/right wing only event/fight
It was no coincidence Dave engaged in this PR stunt the week Corbyn backed Remain. It was designed for the Labour/soft left segment of the electorate0 -
They are all converging into groupthink again, so unlikely that there will be a specific pollster that gets it right. They will all be more or less right or entirely wrong.SeanT said:
This referendum is a huge test for them. If they screw up AGAIN....Sunil_Prasannan said:
Can we ever trust the pollsters again after the debacle of GE2015?TheScreamingEagles said:
Matt Singh and Populus did some work on this recently why the phone polls might be more accurate.
http://www.populus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Polls-Apart-29-March-2016.pdf
Whilst ComRes did something just before Christmas
http://www.comres.co.uk/eu-referendum-all-still-to-play-for-by-not-neck-and-neck/
And it's also very very hard to poll. Entirely unprecedented vote. Don't envy them.
But the company that gets it right will reap big rewards.
0 -
Polling shows he was on the right side of history though. Even UKIP are supportive now.Casino_Royale said:
And the manner in which he did that seriously damaged the voluntary party, and significantly shrunk the membership, too.TheScreamingEagles said:
I heard the same arguments when Cameron legalised same sex marriage.Sean_F said:
That seems to be the current strategy.TheScreamingEagles said:
NopeSean_F said:
Would you consider it to be worth trashing the Conservative Party to get a Remain vote?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron wants to win, as an astute observer pointed out a few months ago, there's no way Leave win without winning a severe chunk of the Labour vote.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
Dave's strategy is to make sure Labour party/soft left voters don't view this referendum
1) As an opportunity to kick him and the Tories
2) Purely a Tory/right wing only event/fight
It was no coincidence Dave engaged in this PR stunt the week Corbyn backed Remain. It was designed for the Labour/soft left segment of the electorate0 -
He is a Conservative. A classic one nation, patriotic type conservative. He is not a tea partier or a Euro obsessive but he is a Conservative none the less. He wants the best for Britain and I have no doubt he genuinely believes that remaining inside the EU is the best for the UK. It upsets me to disagree with someone I have so much respect for. I will not attack him for it.OldKingCole said:
I wouldn't wish to be a member of Lib or LibDem party led by Cameron. And before anyone says well.....DavidL said:
Socially I would agree with you but Cameron and Osborne are both on the right in economic policy. And that is the way I for one like it.SeanT said:
No, there's a deeper truth here. Cameron's values are absolutely those of metrosexual New Labour. He's Blairite to the core. And Cleggite.matt said:
To summarise then, if David Cameron were a different person, he would be a different person.another_richard said:
Cameron's only in the Conservative party because of his background.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
If it had been a bit more Hampsteady and a bit less rural/financial then he would have happily been New Labour or LibDem.
Only tribal loyalty and filial piety - and, most of all, sheer ambition - kept him in the Tory party. It was the best, most commodious vehicle in which to advance his career, as a keen Old Etonian who thought he'd be "quite good as a PM".
But ideologically he is dead centre, and socially he is notably liberal.
I've been a member of both!0 -
Didn't they ask people's views on Tim Farron ?
If not then doesn't that say it all.
And I have to admit having to goggle 'Farron LibDem' as I'd forgotten what Farron's first name was.
0 -
https://twitter.com/DanHannanMEP/status/719925865765855233Sean_F said:
I think you are. All the government's emphasis is on how weak and desperate the UK's economic position is, and thus how disastrous it would be to leave the EU.TheScreamingEagles said:
Except we're not. The ratings would be falling even if there was no referendum.Sean_F said:
This time, you're destroying your reputation for economic competence, which is far more serious. But, if you think the EU is worth it, go for it.TheScreamingEagles said:
I heard the same arguments when Cameron legalised same sex marriage.Sean_F said:
That seems to be the current strategy.TheScreamingEagles said:
NopeSean_F said:
Would you consider it to be worth trashing the Conservative Party to get a Remain vote?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron wants to win, as an astute observer pointed out a few months ago, there's no way Leave win without winning a severe chunk of the Labour vote.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
Dave's strategy is to make sure Labour party/soft left voters don't view this referendum
1) As an opportunity to kick him and the Tories
2) Purely a Tory/right wing only event/fight
It was no coincidence Dave engaged in this PR stunt the week Corbyn backed Remain. It was designed for the Labour/soft left segment of the electorate0 -
Perhaps he was. Which makes the stupid manner in which he went about it all the more unnecessary.foxinsoxuk said:
Polling shows he was on the right side of history though. Even UKIP are supportive now.Casino_Royale said:
And the manner in which he did that seriously damaged the voluntary party, and significantly shrunk the membership, too.TheScreamingEagles said:
I heard the same arguments when Cameron legalised same sex marriage.Sean_F said:
That seems to be the current strategy.TheScreamingEagles said:
NopeSean_F said:
Would you consider it to be worth trashing the Conservative Party to get a Remain vote?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron wants to win, as an astute observer pointed out a few months ago, there's no way Leave win without winning a severe chunk of the Labour vote.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
Dave's strategy is to make sure Labour party/soft left voters don't view this referendum
1) As an opportunity to kick him and the Tories
2) Purely a Tory/right wing only event/fight
It was no coincidence Dave engaged in this PR stunt the week Corbyn backed Remain. It was designed for the Labour/soft left segment of the electorate
Leaders lead, they don't sneer at and use their own followers as a triangulation tactic.0 -
I guess I could easily wind up TSE by modifying the "Be LEAVE" message by going:Indigo said:
Managed decline has been the fashion in all parties basically since Thatcher went. It seems to be heretical to suggest they we could be good at something, on our own, perish the thought! Its curious that a lot of country less rich, less powerful, much less well connected than the UK seem to do rather well for themselves despite not being shackled to part of a custom union and incipient superstate.Sean_F said:
Let's just say that Remain (including Cameron) aren't very upbeat about the UK's future.TheScreamingEagles said:
Most of you Leavers are predicting a short term hit to the economy were we to leave, don't be surprised if Remain keep on using that ammo.Sean_F said:
I think you are. All the government's emphasis is on how weak and desperate the UK's economic position is, and thus how disastrous it would be to leave the EU.TheScreamingEagles said:
Except we're not. The ratings would be falling even if there was no referendum.Sean_F said:
This time, you're destroying your reputation for economic competence, which is far more serious. But, if you think the EU is worth it, go for it.TheScreamingEagles said:
I heard the same arguments when Cameron legalised same sex marriage.Sean_F said:
That seems to be the current strategy.TheScreamingEagles said:
NopeSean_F said:
Would you consider it to be worth trashing the Conservative Party to get a Remain vote?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron wants to win, as an astute observer pointed out a few months ago, there's no way Leave win without winning a severe chunk of the Labour vote.Casino_Royale said:
I orse.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Dave's strategy is to make sure Labour party/soft left voters don't view this referendum
1) As an opportunity to kick him and the Tories
2) Purely a Tory/right wing only event/fight
It was no coincidence Dave engaged in this PR stunt the week Corbyn backed Remain. It was designed for the Labour/soft left segment of the electorate
And, that's not good for the government of the day.
Hitler believed in a European superstate.
Believe in BRITAIN!
Be LEAVE!
0 -
He led quite effectively on the subject.Casino_Royale said:
Perhaps he was. Which makes the stupid manner in which he went about it all the more unnecessary.foxinsoxuk said:
Polling shows he was on the right side of history though. Even UKIP are supportive now.Casino_Royale said:
And the manner in which he did that seriously damaged the voluntary party, and significantly shrunk the membership, too.TheScreamingEagles said:
I heard the same arguments when Cameron legalised same sex marriage.Sean_F said:
That seems to be the current strategy.TheScreamingEagles said:
NopeSean_F said:
Would you consider it to be worth trashing the Conservative Party to get a Remain vote?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron wants to win, as an astute observer pointed out a few months ago, there's no way Leave win without winning a severe chunk of the Labour vote.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
Dave's strategy is to make sure Labour party/soft left voters don't view this referendum
1) As an opportunity to kick him and the Tories
2) Purely a Tory/right wing only event/fight
It was no coincidence Dave engaged in this PR stunt the week Corbyn backed Remain. It was designed for the Labour/soft left segment of the electorate
Leaders lead, they don't sneer at and use their own followers as a triangulation tactic.
Personally I was mildly opposed, but really not that bothered either way.0 -
No - they are not poor results for Labour given that Comres Online consistently has been giving the Tories leads 5 to 8% higher than other polls - including Comres Phone polls!SeanT said:ON topic, those Com Res results are piss poor for Labour. They would easily be ten-fifteen points ahead with a good leader.
Even worse for them, Jeremy Corbyn has been cemented into place. He now looks like part of the furniture, he's taken seriously by pundits, he's listened to attentively on the EU, and so forth. He's not going anywhere.
Barring death or severe misadventure, Corbyn will be Labour leader at the next General Election.
0 -
Osborne's most immediate problem is this month's paychecks. A lot of people in public sector probably haven't cottoned on to how much they are going to lose from the NI change. Not precisely sure of the effect on private sector workers, may depend on whether they are still in a final salary pension scheme or not.0
-
That's a fair, nuanced comment.SeanT said:
I'm not sure that's entirely right. I don't think Cameron or Blair are, or were, declinists, or lacking faith in Britain. Cameron genuinely thinks it is in our economic interests to be inside, and Blair genuinely thought we could lead the EU, alongside Berlin and Paris, if only we committed to it.
Quite possibly - quite probably - they are both deluded, and warped by their desire to play on a larger stage, but I don't think they are insincere.
Are you feeling quite well?0 -
But he didn't believe it three months ago, three months ago we were told that if he didn't get what he wanted in the renegotiations he was quite happy to leave, and was convinced we would be fine going it alone. Then he didn't get what he wanted. Then he went full on Chicken Licken, leaving was a complete disaster and the sky was going to fall in if we left.DavidL said:He is a Conservative. A classic one nation, patriotic type conservative. He is not a tea partier or a Euro obsessive but he is a Conservative none the less. He wants the best for Britain and I have no doubt he genuinely believes that remaining inside the EU is the best for the UK. It upsets me to disagree with someone I have so much respect for. I will not attack him for it.
Some of the voters are going to wonder if it was such a disastrous move leaving the EU, with all the various economic meltdowns, plummeting pounds, industrial exoduses and Nine Plagues of Europe falling on the country.... why did he offer the referendum, offering a choice when one opton means armageddon is not the act of a responsible leader. So.. is all the armageddon talk just the teansiest bit overblown, or was he being irresponsble... tricky one.0 -
But he is deeply establishment - through and through.DavidL said:
He is a Conservative. A classic one nation, patriotic type conservative. He is not a tea partier or a Euro obsessive but he is a Conservative none the less. He wants the best for Britain and I have no doubt he genuinely believes that remaining inside the EU is the best for the UK. It upsets me to disagree with someone I have so much respect for. I will not attack him for it.OldKingCole said:
I wouldn't wish to be a member of Lib or LibDem party led by Cameron. And before anyone says well.....DavidL said:
Socially I would agree with you but Cameron and Osborne are both on the right in economic policy. And that is the way I for one like it.SeanT said:
No, there's a deeper truth here. Cameron's values are absolutely those of metrosexual New Labour. He's Blairite to the core. And Cleggite.matt said:
To summarise then, if David Cameron were a different person, he would be a different person.another_richard said:
Cameron's only in the Conservative party because of his background.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
If it had been a bit more Hampsteady and a bit less rural/financial then he would have happily been New Labour or LibDem.
Only tribal loyalty and filial piety - and, most of all, sheer ambition - kept him in the Tory party. It was the best, most commodious vehicle in which to advance his career, as a keen Old Etonian who thought he'd be "quite good as a PM".
But ideologically he is dead centre, and socially he is notably liberal.
I've been a member of both!
Something I've realised, fairly recently: I am a Cameroon in the radical Gove and Hilton model.
Not in the Osborne/Cameron model.0 -
I don't understand it.Sean_F said:
Let's just say that Remain (including Cameron) aren't very upbeat about the UK's future.TheScreamingEagles said:
Most of you Leavers are predicting a short term hit to the economy were we to leave, don't be surprised if Remain keep on using that ammo.Sean_F said:
I think you are. All the government's emphasis is on how weak and desperate the UK's economic position is, and thus how disastrous it would be to leave the EU.TheScreamingEagles said:
Except we're not. The ratings would be falling even if there was no referendum.Sean_F said:
This time, you're destroying your reputation for economic competence, which is far more serious. But, if you think the EU is worth it, go for it.TheScreamingEagles said:
I heard the same arguments when Cameron legalised same sex marriage.Sean_F said:
That seems to be the current strategy.TheScreamingEagles said:
NopeSean_F said:
Would you consider it to be worth trashing the Conservative Party to get a Remain vote?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron wants to win, as an astute observer pointed out a few months ago, there's no way Leave win without winning a severe chunk of the Labour vote.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
Dave's strategy is to make sure Labour party/soft left voters don't view this referendum
1) As an opportunity to kick him and the Tories
2) Purely a Tory/right wing only event/fight
It was no coincidence Dave engaged in this PR stunt the week Corbyn backed Remain. It was designed for the Labour/soft left segment of the electorate
And, that's not good for the government of the day.
Cameron had a chance to be a hero.
Instead, he's chosen to be another Heath.0 -
Rather sweet piece about late-primar organisers enjoying their rare moment in the sun:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2016/04/15/late_primary_states_get_their_time_to_shine_130292.html0 -
Churchill was in favour of a united European superstate.Sunil_Prasannan said:I guess I could easily wind up TSE by modifying the "Be LEAVE" message by going:
Hitler believed in a European superstate.
Believe in BRITAIN!
Be LEAVE!
Mind you the bugger was also in favour of The UK and France becoming one united, single country.
Bloody treasonous talk if you ask me.0 -
Tosh. We have had a significant fall in government spending as a share of GDP since 2010.another_richard said:
What's your evidence that Cameron and Osborne are 'on the right in economic terms' ?DavidL said:
Socially I would agree with you but Cameron and Osborne are both on the right in economic policy. And that is the way I for one like it.SeanT said:
No, there's a deeper truth here. Cameron's values are absolutely those of metrosexual New Labour. He's Blairite to the core. And Cleggite.matt said:
To summarise then, if David Cameron were a different person, he would be a different person.another_richard said:
Cameron's only in the Conservative party because of his background.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
If it had been a bit more Hampsteady and a bit less rural/financial then he would have happily been New Labour or LibDem.
Only tribal loyalty and filial piety - and, most of all, sheer ambition - kept him in the Tory party. It was the best, most commodious vehicle in which to advance his career, as a keen Old Etonian who thought he'd be "quite good as a PM".
But ideologically he is dead centre, and socially he is notably liberal.
Their economic strategy has been the same as that of the Blair government, namely welfare consumerism.
The tactical difference is that they prefer to subsidise the consumerism of Conservative voting blocs while Labour subsidised Labour voting blocs.
http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/5326/economics/government-spending/
This has been achieved despite more spending on debt interest. The actual increase in government spending has virtually stopped. it is a clear and sharp difference from the policies pursued up to 2010.
This is not an accident. It is a consequence of a different view of the role of the state, the desirability of making people more self-sufficient and the desirability of people spending their own money rather than the government spending it for them.0 -
I think they want to slim the power of public sector unions over the state ie that of a Labour voting bloc.SeanT said:
Largely true. And both Blair & Brown and Cam & Oz relied on a bubble in property prices to drive the economy. The one major difference, perhaps, is that the Tories have actually tried to slim the state, but arguably Blair was the same with PFIs etc.another_richard said:
What's your evidence that Cameron and Osborne are 'on the right in economic terms' ?DavidL said:
Socially I would agree with you but Cameron and Osborne are both on the right in economic policy. And that is the way I for one like it.SeanT said:
No, there's a deeper truth here. Cameron's values are absolutely those of metrosexual New Labour. He's Blairite to the core. And Cleggite.matt said:
To summarise then, if David Cameron were a different person, he would be a different person.another_richard said:
Cameron's only in the Conservative party because of his background.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
If it had been a bit more Hampsteady and a bit less rural/financial then he would have happily been New Labour or LibDem.
Only tribal loyalty and filial piety - and, most of all, sheer ambition - kept him in the Tory party. It was the best, most commodious vehicle in which to advance his career, as a keen Old Etonian who thought he'd be "quite good as a PM".
But ideologically he is dead centre, and socially he is notably liberal.
Their economic strategy has been the same as that of the Blair government, namely welfare consumerism.
The tactical difference is that they prefer to subsidise the consumerism of Conservative voting blocs while Labour subsidised Labour voting blocs.
They are all centrists.
But Cameron and Osborne are clearly believers in 'the gentleman in Whitehall knows best' as long as they are the 'gentlemen'.
Cameron's nannystate tendencies and Osborne's 'meddle in everything' Budgets are examples of this.
0 -
Sadly Blair never really tested that hypothesis because he turned himself into a supplicant of Bush over Iraq and allowed Alastair Campbell, who speaks excellent French, to lie about Jacques Chirac and France's position on the UN resolution.SeanT said:I'm not sure that's entirely right. I don't think Cameron or Blair are, or were, declinists, or lacking faith in Britain. Cameron genuinely thinks it is in our economic interests to be inside, and Blair genuinely thought we could lead the EU, alongside Berlin and Paris, if only we committed to it.
0 -
Plus the living wage kicks in this month so firms running on a shoestring are going to be letting a few people go to keep the books balanced.alex. said:Osborne's most immediate problem is this month's paychecks. A lot of people in public sector probably haven't cottoned on to how much they are going to lose from the NI change. Not precisely sure of the effect on private sector workers, may depend on whether they are still in a final salary pension scheme or not.
0 -
He got the Bill through parliament, yes.foxinsoxuk said:
He led quite effectively on the subject.Casino_Royale said:
Perhaps he was. Which makes the stupid manner in which he went about it all the more unnecessary.foxinsoxuk said:
Polling shows he was on the right side of history though. Even UKIP are supportive now.Casino_Royale said:
And the manner in which he did that seriously damaged the voluntary party, and significantly shrunk the membership, too.TheScreamingEagles said:
I heard the same arguments when Cameron legalised same sex marriage.Sean_F said:
That seems to be the current strategy.TheScreamingEagles said:
NopeSean_F said:
Would you consider it to be worth trashing the Conservative Party to get a Remain vote?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron wants to win, as an astute observer pointed out a few months ago, there's no way Leave win without winning a severe chunk of the Labour vote.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
Dave's strategy is to make sure Labour party/soft left voters don't view this referendum
1) As an opportunity to kick him and the Tories
2) Purely a Tory/right wing only event/fight
It was no coincidence Dave engaged in this PR stunt the week Corbyn backed Remain. It was designed for the Labour/soft left segment of the electorate
Leaders lead, they don't sneer at and use their own followers as a triangulation tactic.
Personally I was mildly opposed, but really not that bothered either way.
He encountered significant parliamentary opposition and alienated vast swathes of the voluntary party in doing so. He made no effort to sell it on its merits to his members, or treat them with respect. He realised his mistake later, and even Matthew d'Ancona reported so in his book "in it together".
But it was part of a detox against his own loyal members, which those close to him deliberately wished to do as they were "all mad, swivel-eyed loons".
That was totally idiotic.0 -
Quite right. Shameful!TheScreamingEagles said:
Churchill was in favour of a united European superstate.Sunil_Prasannan said:I guess I could easily wind up TSE by modifying the "Be LEAVE" message by going:
Hitler believed in a European superstate.
Believe in BRITAIN!
Be LEAVE!
Mind you the bugger was also in favour of The UK and France becoming one united, single country.
Bloody treasonous talk if you ask me.0 -
Look YouGov - even after pro - Tory adjustments - has just given Labour a 3% lead. Let us see what Ipsos Mori and Comres Phone come up with over the next few days. I predict that both will be less favourable for the Tories than this poll. At the beginning of the year Comres Online was giving the Tories 14/15% leads - so at least the trend is consistent.SeanT said:
They are hopelessly poor results in the context of the Tories tearing themselves into tiny pieces over Europe, the entire rightwing going into revolt, Cameron's ratings collapsing, and so forth.justin124 said:
No they are not poor results for Labour given that Comres Oline consistently has been giving the Tories leads 5 to 8% better than other polls - including Comres Phone polls!SeanT said:ON topic, those Com Res results are piss poor for Labour. They would easily be ten-fifteen points ahead with a good leader.
Even worse for them, Jeremy Corbyn has been cemented into place. He now looks like part of the furniture, he's taken seriously by pundits, he's listened to attentively on the EU, and so forth. He's not going anywhere.
Barring death or severe misadventure, Corbyn will be Labour leader at the next General Election.
Early Blair would have a 20 point lead over this Tory party. Corbyn still manages to be five points BEHIND.
If you can't see how ominous this is, for Labour, then you might as well give up this politics lark.0 -
That's why Hilton quit. Explained more in this excellent book, which I read inside 60 hours over Christmas (not showing off, just it was that gripping and good):another_richard said:
I think they want to slim the power of public sector unions over the state ie that of a Labour voting bloc.SeanT said:
Largely true. And both Blair & Brown and Cam & Oz relied on a bubble in property prices to drive the economy. The one major difference, perhaps, is that the Tories have actually tried to slim the state, but arguably Blair was the same with PFIs etc.another_richard said:
What's your evidence that Cameron and Osborne are 'on the right in economic terms' ?DavidL said:
Socially I would agree with you but Cameron and Osborne are both on the right in economic policy. And that is the way I for one like it.SeanT said:
No, there's a deeper truth here. Cameron's values are absolutely those of metrosexual New Labour. He's Blairite to the core. And Cleggite.matt said:
To summarise then, if David Cameron were a different person, he would be a different person.another_richard said:
Cameron's only in the Conservative party because of his background.Casino_Royale said:
.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
If it had been a bit more Hampsteady and a bit less rural/financial then he would have happily been New Labour or LibDem.
Only tribal loyalty and filial piety - and, most of all, sheer ambition - kept him in the Tory party. It was the best, most commodious vehicle in which to advance his career, as a keen Old Etonian who thought he'd be "quite good as a PM".
But ideologically he is dead centre, and socially he is notably liberal.
Their economic strategy has been the same as that of the Blair government, namely welfare consumerism.
The tactical difference is that they prefer to subsidise the consumerism of Conservative voting blocs while Labour subsidised Labour voting blocs.
They are all centrists.
But Cameron and Osborne are clearly believers in 'the gentleman in Whitehall knows best' as long as they are the 'gentlemen'.
Cameron's nannystate tendencies and Osborne's 'meddle in everything' Budgets are examples of this.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cameron-10-Inside-Story-2010-2015/dp/00075755130 -
Ah, but you see in his famous speech in Zurich, Churchill stated that we should be friends with a United Europe, implying that Britain should be outside, and stick with its Commonwealth associations.TheScreamingEagles said:
Churchill was in favour of a united European superstate.Sunil_Prasannan said:I guess I could easily wind up TSE by modifying the "Be LEAVE" message by going:
Hitler believed in a European superstate.
Believe in BRITAIN!
Be LEAVE!
Mind you the bugger was also in favour of The UK and France becoming one united, single country.
Bloody treasonous talk if you ask me.
http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html
0 -
Exactly.Alistair said:
Too wee, too poor, too stupid.Sean_F said:
I think you are. All the government's emphasis is on how weak and desperate the UK's economic position is, and thus how disastrous it would be to leave the EU.TheScreamingEagles said:
Except we're not. The ratings would be falling even if there was no referendum.Sean_F said:
This time, you're destroying your reputation for economic competence, which is far more serious. But, if you think the EU is worth it, go for it.TheScreamingEagles said:
I heard the same arguments when Cameron legalised same sex marriage.Sean_F said:
That seems to be the current strategy.TheScreamingEagles said:
NopeSean_F said:
Would you consider it to be worth trashing the Conservative Party to get a Remain vote?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron wants to win, as an astute observer pointed out a few months ago, there's no way Leave win without winning a severe chunk of the Labour vote.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
Dave's strategy is to make sure Labour party/soft left voters don't view this referendum
1) As an opportunity to kick him and the Tories
2) Purely a Tory/right wing only event/fight
It was no coincidence Dave engaged in this PR stunt the week Corbyn backed Remain. It was designed for the Labour/soft left segment of the electorate0 -
Is this the WWC part time special constable/PCSO who was a little bit UKIP'py?SeanT said:
I have a very lovely new girlfriend. It has induced uncharacteristic fits of niceness. She is young and flighty, however, so if and when she chucks me, I will surely revert to type.NickPalmer said:
That's a fair, nuanced comment.SeanT said:
I'm not sure that's entirely right. I don't think Cameron or Blair are, or were, declinists, or lacking faith in Britain. Cameron genuinely thinks it is in our economic interests to be inside, and Blair genuinely thought we could lead the EU, alongside Berlin and Paris, if only we committed to it.
Quite possibly - quite probably - they are both deluded, and warped by their desire to play on a larger stage, but I don't think they are insincere.
Are you feeling quite well?0 -
It's interesting that Hilton has a positive view of Trump.Casino_Royale said:
That's why Hilton quit. Explained more in this excellent book, which I read inside 60 hours over Christmas (not showing off, just it was that gripping and good):another_richard said:
I think they want to slim the power of public sector unions over the state ie that of a Labour voting bloc.SeanT said:
Largely true. And both Blair & Brown and Cam & Oz relied on a bubble in property prices to drive the economy. The one major difference, perhaps, is that the Tories have actually tried to slim the state, but arguably Blair was the same with PFIs etc.another_richard said:
What's your evidence that Cameron and Osborne are 'on the right in economic terms' ?DavidL said:
Socially I would agree with you but Cameron and Osborne are both on the right in economic policy. And that is the way I for one like it.SeanT said:
No, there's a deeper truth here. Cameron's values are absolutely those of metrosexual New Labour. He's Blairite to the core. And Cleggite.matt said:
To summarise then, if David Cameron were a different person, he would be a different person.another_richard said:
Cameron's only in the Conservative party because of his background.Casino_Royale said:
.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
If it had been a bit more Hampsteady and a bit less rural/financial then he would have happily been New Labour or LibDem.
Only tribal loyalty and filial piety - and, most of all, sheer ambition - kept him in the Tory party. It was the best, most commodious vehicle in which to advance his career, as a keen Old Etonian who thought he'd be "quite good as a PM".
But ideologically he is dead centre, and socially he is notably liberal.
Their economic strategy has been the same as that of the Blair government, namely welfare consumerism.
The tactical difference is that they prefer to subsidise the consumerism of Conservative voting blocs while Labour subsidised Labour voting blocs.
They are all centrists.
But Cameron and Osborne are clearly believers in 'the gentleman in Whitehall knows best' as long as they are the 'gentlemen'.
Cameron's nannystate tendencies and Osborne's 'meddle in everything' Budgets are examples of this.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cameron-10-Inside-Story-2010-2015/dp/00075755130 -
Well, they're actually requiring people to sign up to positive politics. Partly I just want to rally round in case of any attempt at an anti-Corbyn coup. But in any case it feels a bit like coming home.rottenborough said:
Hmm. Blairite "Positive Politics" in Broxtowe to Momentum. Quite some journey.0 -
Nobody believed that. It was never going to happen. It was a negotiating position and not a particularly credible one. Hence, some might say, the results.Indigo said:
But he didn't believe it three months ago, three months ago we were told that if he didn't get what he wanted in the renegotiations he was quite happy to leave, and was convinced we would be fine going it alone. Then he didn't get what he wanted. Then he went full on Chicken Licken, leaving was a complete disaster and the sky was going to fall in if we left.DavidL said:He is a Conservative. A classic one nation, patriotic type conservative. He is not a tea partier or a Euro obsessive but he is a Conservative none the less. He wants the best for Britain and I have no doubt he genuinely believes that remaining inside the EU is the best for the UK. It upsets me to disagree with someone I have so much respect for. I will not attack him for it.
Some of the voters are going to wonder if it was such a disastrous move leaving the EU, with all the various economic meltdowns, plummeting pounds, industrial exoduses and Nine Plagues of Europe falling on the country.... why did he offer the referendum, offering a choice when one opton means armageddon is not the act of a responsible leader. So.. is all the armageddon talk just the teansiest bit overblown, or was he being irresponsble... tricky one.0 -
A lot will also be cutting premium rates at the weekend etc to pay for the basic rise and keep the total wage bill neutral. People may well not get the boost that they were expecting.Indigo said:
Plus the living wage kicks in this month so firms running on a shoestring are going to be letting a few people go to keep the books balanced.alex. said:Osborne's most immediate problem is this month's paychecks. A lot of people in public sector probably haven't cottoned on to how much they are going to lose from the NI change. Not precisely sure of the effect on private sector workers, may depend on whether they are still in a final salary pension scheme or not.
0 -
I get where you are coming from but I am a mixture. Not as radical or intellectually rigorous as a Gove. More pragmatic (or weak, take your pick).Casino_Royale said:
But he is deeply establishment - through and through.DavidL said:
He is a Conservative. A classic one nation, patriotic type conservative. He is not a tea partier or a Euro obsessive but he is a Conservative none the less. He wants the best for Britain and I have no doubt he genuinely believes that remaining inside the EU is the best for the UK. It upsets me to disagree with someone I have so much respect for. I will not attack him for it.OldKingCole said:
I wouldn't wish to be a member of Lib or LibDem party led by Cameron. And before anyone says well.....DavidL said:
Socially I would agree with you but Cameron and Osborne are both on the right in economic policy. And that is the way I for one like it.SeanT said:
No, there's a deeper truth here. Cameron's values are absolutely those of metrosexual New Labour. He's Blairite to the core. And Cleggite.matt said:
To summarise then, if David Cameron were a different person, he would be a different person.another_richard said:
Cameron's only in the Conservative party because of his background.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
If it had been a bit more Hampsteady and a bit less rural/financial then he would have happily been New Labour or LibDem.
Only tribal loyalty and filial piety - and, most of all, sheer ambition - kept him in the Tory party. It was the best, most commodious vehicle in which to advance his career, as a keen Old Etonian who thought he'd be "quite good as a PM".
But ideologically he is dead centre, and socially he is notably liberal.
I've been a member of both!
Something I've realised, fairly recently: I am a Cameroon in the radical Gove and Hilton model.
Not in the Osborne/Cameron model.0 -
Steve Hilton understands Trump - and Sanders - bit different, but he explains it extremely well here:williamglenn said:
It's interesting that Hilton has a positive view of Trump.Casino_Royale said:
That's why Hilton quit. Explained more in this excellent book, which I read inside 60 hours over Christmas (not showing off, just it was that gripping and good):another_richard said:
ISeanT said:
Largely true. And both Blair & Brown and Cam & Oz relied on a bubble in property prices to drive the economy. The one major difference, perhaps, is that the Tories have actually tried to slim the state, but arguably Blair was the same with PFIs etc.another_richard said:
WhDavidL said:
Socially I would agree with you but Cameron and Osborne are both on the right in economic policy. And that is the way I for one like it.SeanT said:
Nmatt said:
To summarise then, if David Cameron were a different person, he would be a different person.another_richard said:
Cameron's only in the Conservative party because of his background.Casino_Royale said:
.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
If it had been a bit more Hampsteady and a bit less rural/financial then he would have happily been New Labour or LibDem.
They are all centrists.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cameron-10-Inside-Story-2010-2015/dp/0007575513
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqry875bIbo
Steve Hilton is an absolute hero. I've always liked him. His book "More Human" is excellent. I'd recommend it to anyone.
I'd totally vote for that.
I wish they ran the Tory party. Here's hoping Hilton/Gove inherit the earth.0 -
He's a Conservative in the same way that Sir Ian Gilmour or Sir Edward Boyle were Conservatives. I'm sure he does believe that our future lies at the heart of Europe.DavidL said:
He is a Conservative. A classic one nation, patriotic type conservative. He is not a tea partier or a Euro obsessive but he is a Conservative none the less. He wants the best for Britain and I have no doubt he genuinely believes that remaining inside the EU is the best for the UK. It upsets me to disagree with someone I have so much respect for. I will not attack him for it.OldKingCole said:
I wouldn't wish to be a member of Lib or LibDem party led by Cameron. And before anyone says well.....DavidL said:
Socially I would agree with you but Cameron and Osborne are both on the right in economic policy. And that is the way I for one like it.SeanT said:
No, there's a deeper truth here. Cameron's values are absolutely those of metrosexual New Labour. He's Blairite to the core. And Cleggite.matt said:
To summarise then, if David Cameron were a different person, he would be a different person.another_richard said:
Cameron's only in the Conservative party because of his background.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
If it had been a bit more Hampsteady and a bit less rural/financial then he would have happily been New Labour or LibDem.
Only tribal loyalty and filial piety - and, most of all, sheer ambition - kept him in the Tory party. It was the best, most commodious vehicle in which to advance his career, as a keen Old Etonian who thought he'd be "quite good as a PM".
But ideologically he is dead centre, and socially he is notably liberal.
I've been a member of both!0 -
Do you have a link to momentums agenda? I would be genuinely interested. I left the Labour party more than a decade ago but could be tempted back by the right policies. I didn't like New Labours NHS or war policies, but approved of their commitment to sound finances, which they held to when I was a member.NickPalmer said:
Well, they're actually requiring people to sign up to positive politics. Partly I just want to rally round in case of any attempt at an anti-Corbyn coup. But in any case it feels a bit like coming home.rottenborough said:
Hmm. Blairite "Positive Politics" in Broxtowe to Momentum. Quite some journey.0 -
@Adam_Ludlow: @stephenkb it's the scores of Tory voters that are most interesting - they still massively prefer Cameron over Boris https://t.co/FHeeiiT8l7
But, but, but, that's not what the PB Bexit Brain Trust said...0 -
"Living Wage" sounds awfully New Labour!Indigo said:
Plus the living wage kicks in this month so firms running on a shoestring are going to be letting a few people go to keep the books balanced.alex. said:Osborne's most immediate problem is this month's paychecks. A lot of people in public sector probably haven't cottoned on to how much they are going to lose from the NI change. Not precisely sure of the effect on private sector workers, may depend on whether they are still in a final salary pension scheme or not.
0 -
You're certainly not weak. Anything but.DavidL said:
I get where you are coming from but I am a mixture. Not as radical or intellectually rigorous as a Gove. More pragmatic (or weak, take your pick).Casino_Royale said:
But he is deeply establishment - through and through.DavidL said:
He is a Conservative. A classic one nation, patriotic type conservative. He is not a tea partier or a Euro obsessive but he is a Conservative none the less. He wants the best for Britain and I have no doubt he genuinely believes that remaining inside the EU is the best for the UK. It upsets me to disagree with someone I have so much respect for. I will not attack him for it.OldKingCole said:
IDavidL said:
SSeanT said:
N.matt said:
To summarise then, if David Cameron were a different person, he would be a different person.another_richard said:
Cameron's only in the Conservative party because of his background.Casino_Royale said:
I .Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
If it had been a bit more Hampsteady and a bit less rural/financial then he would have happily been New Labour or LibDem.
Something I've realised, fairly recently: I am a Cameroon in the radical Gove and Hilton model.
Not in the Osborne/Cameron model.
I point that out because I sense a few leadership loyalists may wish to paint me into the "nasty Right" box.
In fact, I was one of David Cameron's very first supporters when Change to Win first launched in 2005, and I have been (and still am) a big supporter of the concept of The Big Society.0 -
At the 2012 local elections Labour were 9% ahead. If they're now 5% behind that's a 7% swing to the Tories.0
-
Yes - but we are nowhere near midterm -which will not be here until the beginning of 2017 at the earliest.The first year of a Parliament is rarely the most difficult for a re-elected Government. Remember Blair took over in mid-1994 over two years into the 1992 Parliament and inherited a big lead built up under John Smith. I am no Corbyn fan, have no wish to see him in place in 2020 and am far from convinced that he will be. That said, we are also a very long way from the 20 - 25% Tory leads that quite a few on here were predicting last Summer /early Autumn.SeanT said:
Doesn't change the facts. Labour should be 10-15 points AHEAD.justin124 said:
Look YouGov - even after pro - Tory adjustments - has just given Labour a 3% lead. Let us see what Ipsos Mori and Comres Phone come up with over the next few days. I predict that both will be less favourable for the Tories than this poll. At the beginning of the year Comres Online was giving the Tories 14/15% leads - so at least the trend is consistent.SeanT said:
They are hopelessly poor results in the context of the Tories tearing themselves into tiny pieces over Europe, the entire rightwing going into revolt, Cameron's ratings collapsing, and so forth.justin124 said:
No they are not poor results for Labour given that Comres Oline consistently has been giving the Tories leads 5 to 8% better than other polls - including Comres Phone polls!SeanT said:ON topic, those Com Res results are piss poor for Labour. They would easily be ten-fifteen points ahead with a good leader.
Even worse for them, Jeremy Corbyn has been cemented into place. He now looks like part of the furniture, he's taken seriously by pundits, he's listened to attentively on the EU, and so forth. He's not going anywhere.
Barring death or severe misadventure, Corbyn will be Labour leader at the next General Election.
Early Blair would have a 20 point lead over this Tory party. Corbyn still manages to be five points BEHIND.
If you can't see how ominous this is, for Labour, then you might as well give up this politics lark.
All these polls indicate is that the Tories are so rubbish, right now, a chunk of their support has gone to UKIP, or given up entirely. They imply no major Labour revival, at all. Corbyn is an awful leader, now, just as he was when he was elected. He cannot win in 2020.
The worst thing about these slightly-better-than-dreadful polls is the painfully false hope they offer sensible lefties. Thus ensuring Corbyn will avoid any dethronement, and continue to 2020.0 -
Initially, I thought Hilton was hippy dippy, but he really is interesting,Casino_Royale said:
Steve Hilton understands Trump - and Sanders - bit different, but he explains it extremely well here:williamglenn said:
It's interesting that Hilton has a positive view of Trump.Casino_Royale said:
That's why Hilton quit. Explained more in this excellent book, which I read inside 60 hours over Christmas (not showing off, just it was that gripping and good):another_richard said:
ISeanT said:
Largely true. And both Blair & Brown and Cam & Oz relied on a bubble in property prices to drive the economy. The one major difference, perhaps, is that the Tories have actually tried to slim the state, but arguably Blair was the same with PFIs etc.another_richard said:
WhDavidL said:
Socially I would agree with you but Cameron and Osborne are both on the right in economic policy. And that is the way I for one like it.SeanT said:
Nmatt said:
To summarise then, if David Cameron were a different person, he would be a different person.another_richard said:
Cameron's only in the Conservative party because of his background.Casino_Royale said:
.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
If it had been a bit more Hampsteady and a bit less rural/financial then he would have happily been New Labour or LibDem.
They are all centrists.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cameron-10-Inside-Story-2010-2015/dp/0007575513
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqry875bIbo
Steve Hilton is an absolute hero. I've always liked him. His book "More Human" is excellent. I'd recommend it to anyone.
I'd totally vote for that.
I wish they ran the Tory party. Here's hoping Hilton/Gove inherit the earth.0 -
I am sure that he thinks Britain's role is to run the place and keep them sensible. Probably a tad optimistic but absolutely genuine.Sean_F said:
He's a Conservative in the same way that Sir Ian Gilmour or Sir Edward Boyle were Conservatives. I'm sure he does believe that our future lies at the heart of Europe.DavidL said:
He is a Conservative. A classic one nation, patriotic type conservative. He is not a tea partier or a Euro obsessive but he is a Conservative none the less. He wants the best for Britain and I have no doubt he genuinely believes that remaining inside the EU is the best for the UK. It upsets me to disagree with someone I have so much respect for. I will not attack him for it.OldKingCole said:
I wouldn't wish to be a member of Lib or LibDem party led by Cameron. And before anyone says well.....DavidL said:
Socially I would agree with you but Cameron and Osborne are both on the right in economic policy. And that is the way I for one like it.SeanT said:
No, there's a deeper truth here. Cameron's values are absolutely those of metrosexual New Labour. He's Blairite to the core. And Cleggite.matt said:
To summarise then, if David Cameron were a different person, he would be a different person.another_richard said:
Cameron's only in the Conservative party because of his background.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
If it had been a bit more Hampsteady and a bit less rural/financial then he would have happily been New Labour or LibDem.
Only tribal loyalty and filial piety - and, most of all, sheer ambition - kept him in the Tory party. It was the best, most commodious vehicle in which to advance his career, as a keen Old Etonian who thought he'd be "quite good as a PM".
But ideologically he is dead centre, and socially he is notably liberal.
I've been a member of both!0 -
Or maybe he is sympathetic to the view that probably many leading Conservatives held when we first went in.Sean_F said:
He's a Conservative in the same way that Sir Ian Gilmour or Sir Edward Boyle were Conservatives. I'm sure he does believe that our future lies at the heart of Europe.DavidL said:
He is a Conservative. A classic one nation, patriotic type conservative. He is not a tea partier or a Euro obsessive but he is a Conservative none the less. He wants the best for Britain and I have no doubt he genuinely believes that remaining inside the EU is the best for the UK. It upsets me to disagree with someone I have so much respect for. I will not attack him for it.OldKingCole said:
I wouldn't wish to be a member of Lib or LibDem party led by Cameron. And before anyone says well.....DavidL said:
Socially I would agree with you but Cameron and Osborne are both on the right in economic policy. And that is the way I for one like it.SeanT said:
No, there's a deeper truth here. Cameron's values are absolutely those of metrosexual New Labour. He's Blairite to the core. And Cleggite.matt said:
To summarise then, if David Cameron were a different person, he would be a different person.another_richard said:
Cameron's only in the Conservative party because of his background.Casino_Royale said:
I do wonder if he's decided to sacrifice himself for the cause.Sean_F said:Cameron's ratings are going down the toilet. There is residual loyalty for him among Conservatives, but it's evaporating.
Being deliberately photographed with Thatcher/Major's Labour nemesis of 1987/1992, the Lib Dem leader, who helped wreck many Tory marginals in 1997, Tessa Jowell, and the Green's Darren Johnson was no accident.
The smiles and laughter looked genuine, which made it worse.
If it had been a bit more Hampsteady and a bit less rural/financial then he would have happily been New Labour or LibDem.
Only tribal loyalty and filial piety - and, most of all, sheer ambition - kept him in the Tory party. It was the best, most commodious vehicle in which to advance his career, as a keen Old Etonian who thought he'd be "quite good as a PM".
But ideologically he is dead centre, and socially he is notably liberal.
I've been a member of both!
That we would rather it didn't exist, but given that it does exist it is better that we are in and influencing it, than out and having Germany dominate it.
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In the context of da yoof, what does patriarchy even MEAN?SeanT said:
No, we split. This is a new one. She's quite leftwing and Millennial and says "Patriarchy" a lot.Casino_Royale said:
Is this the WWC part time special constable/PCSO who was a little bit UKIP'py?SeanT said:
I have a very lovely new girlfriend. It has induced uncharacteristic fits of niceness. She is young and flighty, however, so if and when she chucks me, I will surely revert to type.NickPalmer said:
That's a fair, nuanced comment.SeanT said:
I'm not sure that's entirely right. I don't think Cameron or Blair are, or were, declinists, or lacking faith in Britain. Cameron genuinely thinks it is in our economic interests to be inside, and Blair genuinely thought we could lead the EU, alongside Berlin and Paris, if only we committed to it.
Quite possibly - quite probably - they are both deluded, and warped by their desire to play on a larger stage, but I don't think they are insincere.
Are you feeling quite well?
Oddly exciting.
And why would anyone say it a lot?0 -
Yawn.DavidL said:
Tosh. We have had a significant fall in government spending as a share of GDP since 2010.another_richard said:
What's your evidence that Cameron and Osborne are 'on the right in economic terms' ?DavidL said:
Socially I would agree with you but Cameron and Osborne are both on the right in economic policy. And that is the way I for one like it.SeanT said:
No, there's a deeper truth here. Cameron's values are absolutely those of metrosexual New Labour. He's Blairite to the core. And Cleggite.
Only tribal loyalty and filial piety - and, most of all, sheer ambition - kept him in the Tory party. It was the best, most commodious vehicle in which to advance his career, as a keen Old Etonian who thought he'd be "quite good as a PM".
But ideologically he is dead centre, and socially he is notably liberal.
Their economic strategy has been the same as that of the Blair government, namely welfare consumerism.
The tactical difference is that they prefer to subsidise the consumerism of Conservative voting blocs while Labour subsidised Labour voting blocs.
http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/5326/economics/government-spending/
This has been achieved despite more spending on debt interest. The actual increase in government spending has virtually stopped. it is a clear and sharp difference from the policies pursued up to 2010.
This is not an accident. It is a consequence of a different view of the role of the state, the desirability of making people more self-sufficient and the desirability of people spending their own money rather than the government spending it for them.
As I said they support cuts to Labour voting blocs but subsidise consumerism in Conservative voting blocs eg triple lock pensions.
Perhaps you'd like to explain why government borrowing is so much higher than Osborne said it would be ?
Or why when Osborne promised to rebalance the economy towards 'exports and savings' the UK's current account is at a record high and savings ratio is at a record low.
Or why Osborne's proclaimed 'March of the Makers' has been a march backwards.
Still house prices are up aren't they.
Rising house prices and government subsidised welfare consumerism for friendly voting blocs.
Just as it was in the Blair era, the only difference is that the friendly voting blocs are different.
And why should anyone be surprised - Blair was the inspiration to Cameron and Osborne and they saw nothing wrong with the economy of a decade ago. On the contrary they promised to maintain Labour's spending levels and to 'share the proceeds of growth'.
The only problem being there isn't enough growth to subsidise the required level of welfare consumerism.
So the magic money tree has been used instead.
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This is too boring for words. Find a new tune, this is seriously dull and pointless.another_richard said:
Yawn.DavidL said:
Tosh. We have had a significant fall in government spending as a share of GDP since 2010.another_richard said:
http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/5326/economics/government-spending/
This has been achieved despite more spending on debt interest. The actual increase in government spending has virtually stopped. it is a clear and sharp difference from the policies pursued up to 2010.
This is not an accident. It is a consequence of a different view of the role of the state, the desirability of making people more self-sufficient and the desirability of people spending their own money rather than the government spending it for them.
As I said they support cuts to Labour voting blocs but subsidise consumerism in Conservative voting blocs eg triple lock pensions.
Perhaps you'd like to explain why government borrowing is so much higher than Osborne said it would be ?
Or why when Osborne promised to rebalance the economy towards 'exports and savings' the UK's current account is at a record high and savings ratio is at a record low.
Or why Osborne's proclaimed 'March of the Makers' has been a march backwards.
Still house prices are up aren't they.
Rising house prices and government subsidised welfare consumerism for friendly voting blocs.
Just as it was in the Blair era, the only difference is that the friendly voting blocs are different.
And why should anyone be surprised - Blair was the inspiration to Cameron and Osborne and they saw nothing wrong with the economy of a decade ago. On the contrary they promised to maintain Labour's spending levels and to 'share the proceeds of growth'.
The only problem being there isn't enough growth to subsidise the required level of welfare consumerism.
So the magic money tree has been used instead.0 -
@Sean Fear - Hilton is an arch eurosceptic. His strategy was for Cameron to go into each EU summit in his first term, and walk out looking frustrated, rejected and despondent.
He'd then build up a case for Leave, call a referendum in his second term, and win it.
Cameron only listened to some of that.
(Hilton left when he realised Cameron was more interested in establishment civil servants like Jeremy Heywood than him)0 -
It means she knows who to call "Daddy",Casino_Royale said:
In the context of da yoof, what does patriarchy even MEAN?
apologies @seanT !0 -
No sign of that in the local byelections which have not gone well for the Tories of late. On your figures Yougov's 3% Labour lead would imply a 3% swing to the Tories since 2012 - but a 2% swing to Labour from 2011 which was the same point in the 2010 Parliament.AndyJS said:At the 2012 local elections Labour were 9% ahead. If they're now 5% behind that's a 7% swing to the Tories.
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See Jess Phillips on Cologne...Casino_Royale said:
In the context of da yoof, what does patriarchy even MEAN?SeanT said:
No, we split. This is a new one. She's quite leftwing and Millennial and says "Patriarchy" a lot.Casino_Royale said:
Is this the WWC part time special constable/PCSO who was a little bit UKIP'py?SeanT said:
I have a very lovely new girlfriend. It has induced uncharacteristic fits of niceness. She is young and flighty, however, so if and when she chucks me, I will surely revert to type.NickPalmer said:
That's a fair, nuanced comment.SeanT said:
I'm not sure that's entirely right. I don't think Cameron or Blair are, or were, declinists, or lacking faith in Britain. Cameron genuinely thinks it is in our economic interests to be inside, and Blair genuinely thought we could lead the EU, alongside Berlin and Paris, if only we committed to it.
Quite possibly - quite probably - they are both deluded, and warped by their desire to play on a larger stage, but I don't think they are insincere.
Are you feeling quite well?
Oddly exciting.
And why would anyone say it a lot?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/29/labour-mp-jess-phillips-defends-remarks-about-cologne-sex-attacks
"We have to attack what we perceive as being patriarchal culture coming into any culture that isn’t patriarchal and making sure we tell people not to be like that."0
This discussion has been closed.